WEBVTT - Wells Fargo Rethinks Diversity Training After Suits (Audio)

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<v Speaker 1>Do corporate diversity training programs work? Harvard professor Frank Dobbin

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<v Speaker 1>said no in a Harvard Business Review article last year,

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<v Speaker 1>writing that most diversity programs have failed because they alienate managers.

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<v Speaker 1>Dobbin instead endorsed a voluntary consciousness raising program that includes

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<v Speaker 1>rank and file staff along with supervisors. One bank is

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<v Speaker 1>willing to give the alternative a try. As part of

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<v Speaker 1>a thirty five and a half million dollar settlement with

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<v Speaker 1>black financial advisors, Wells Fargo has agreed to take some

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<v Speaker 1>measures to create a fairer workplace, borrowing some ideas from Dobbin,

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<v Speaker 1>including focus groups with senior business leaders and black brokers.

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<v Speaker 1>Will it work here to discuss? That is? Valerie Purdy Greenaway.

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<v Speaker 1>She's a professor at Columbia University and also the director

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<v Speaker 1>of the Laboratory of Intergroup Relations and the Social Mind

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<v Speaker 1>at Columbia. Valerie MetLife agreed to pay more than thirty

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<v Speaker 1>two million dollars to settle a racial discrimination employment case

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<v Speaker 1>this year, and four years ago Mary Lynch set a

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<v Speaker 1>similar case for a record sixty million dollars. Do these

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of settlements lead to changes in the diversity of

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<v Speaker 1>the workforce? That's a great question. In general, they tend

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<v Speaker 1>not to and the reason why is because there is

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<v Speaker 1>so much um uh animosity that goes along with the

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<v Speaker 1>legal cases. Oftentimes the settlements UM the benefits go directly

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<v Speaker 1>to the plaintiffs, and it doesn't address the broader cultural

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<v Speaker 1>systemic issues that have been hurting and derailing people's careers.

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<v Speaker 1>And in this case, the target where African American financial advisors.

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<v Speaker 1>But research shows that when there is a settlement like

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<v Speaker 1>this many many other groups are subtly affected as well,

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<v Speaker 1>um individuals with disabilities, women in leadership positions, other ethnic groups,

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<v Speaker 1>other religious groups. So um and in short, they attends

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<v Speaker 1>the settlement is a financial corrective, but more is needed. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>it almost feels like the the traditional way of doing

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<v Speaker 1>it is something of a compliance model. It's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a top down thing that what we're talking about. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>as Fargo, it seems like it's more bottom up in

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<v Speaker 1>a way. Is that right? Yes? Absolutely, And Frank's work

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<v Speaker 1>is so crystal clear. Compliance models tend not to work. UM.

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<v Speaker 1>Managers are highly intelligent, highly motivated, and oftentimes they want

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<v Speaker 1>to do good. UM. Compliance models are inconsistent with what

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<v Speaker 1>we know about how the brain works. Uh much of

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<v Speaker 1>bias is unconscious. We're unaware of it, and it's baked

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<v Speaker 1>into many of our um corporate practices. So by having

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<v Speaker 1>a voluntary bottom up approach, you can start a really

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<v Speaker 1>targeting where the bias might be, having people feel ownership

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<v Speaker 1>and agency around, you know, trying to make the workplace,

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<v Speaker 1>culture and leadership UM better. UM you can log roll

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<v Speaker 1>or enhance the whatever programs are already working, and then

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<v Speaker 1>you can target unconscious unconscious bias and and work on

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<v Speaker 1>strategies to mitigate bias. So a bottom up approach is

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<v Speaker 1>much more effective than than compliance. Unfortunately, compliance is oftentimes necessary,

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<v Speaker 1>but it tends not to be effective. Valarie tell us

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<v Speaker 1>more about these suggested focus groups and how they differ

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<v Speaker 1>from workshops in diversity training programs. So part of what

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<v Speaker 1>needs to happen is leaders need to be really comfortable

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<v Speaker 1>just being able to talk about identity. In financial institutions,

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<v Speaker 1>most financial institutions have a color blind approach that they

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<v Speaker 1>don't really talk about identity and and and because of that,

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<v Speaker 1>there really is no language event to talk about sponsorship, mentoring,

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<v Speaker 1>mitigating unconscious bias. When you have focus groups where you

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<v Speaker 1>just get people who want to you know, um, just

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<v Speaker 1>make the workplace better. They're in a room, they have

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<v Speaker 1>a variety of different identities, experiences, UM, intellectual diversity in

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<v Speaker 1>there in the room, just talking to each other, um,

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<v Speaker 1>and not focusing on you know, what are the settlement pieces,

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<v Speaker 1>but just talking about solutions. This has so many psychological

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<v Speaker 1>benefits and sort of humanizes diversity. You can localize problem solving,

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<v Speaker 1>you can pick things that are going to really accelerate change,

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<v Speaker 1>and it creates a different psychology of psychology around openness

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<v Speaker 1>and authenticity and genuineness. Um, that's really needed. Are there

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<v Speaker 1>metrics fallorie that you know a company like Wells Fargo

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<v Speaker 1>could use to measure whether this different approaches working. Absolutely,

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<v Speaker 1>so you know, focus groups do not mean that they

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<v Speaker 1>can't be rigorous. You can have randomly assigned focus groups

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<v Speaker 1>where where within a particular division you would have a

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<v Speaker 1>group of leaders that would be involved in a focus group,

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<v Speaker 1>you would have another group of leaders maybe you know,

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<v Speaker 1>compare compare them to a compliance strategy. You can also

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<v Speaker 1>use what's called a lag design where you have certain

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<v Speaker 1>focus groups happening in September and then you have another

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<v Speaker 1>set of focus groups happening in November. These kind of

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<v Speaker 1>strategies integrate the rigorous experimental methods UM, which can tell

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<v Speaker 1>us what works and why, along with the openness and

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<v Speaker 1>fluidity of of the focus groups. Valerie, does mentoring fit

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<v Speaker 1>in somewhere here, absolutely, But not just mentoring. Mentoring is

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<v Speaker 1>UM sort of telling people, oftentimes members of underrepresented groups,

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<v Speaker 1>you know large, you know how to make it through

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<v Speaker 1>the company. Where it's really at is sponsorship. Sponsorship means

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<v Speaker 1>who am I pushing without them in the room, without

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<v Speaker 1>them knowing it, moving around their careers, giving them stretch assignments.

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<v Speaker 1>This happens oftentimes unconsciously and as a function of homofely.

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<v Speaker 1>We like to push people that are like us or

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<v Speaker 1>that remind us who we were a long time ago.

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<v Speaker 1>That process really drives promotion, and that is an implicit,

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<v Speaker 1>oftentimes secretive process that people don't even know that they're

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<v Speaker 1>engaged in that needs to be brought to light. So

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<v Speaker 1>not just mentorship, but sponsorship and equitable sponsorship across groups. Valerie,

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<v Speaker 1>would you expect that you're going to see more settlements

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<v Speaker 1>in discrimination cases, you know, get companies involved with this

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<v Speaker 1>sort of bottom up approach and focus groups approach. It's

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<v Speaker 1>it's hard for me to to predict that. UM, I

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<v Speaker 1>believe that companies are motivated to find solutions about what works.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, millennials are looking for scores. They want to

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<v Speaker 1>know if this is a place where where they where

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<v Speaker 1>they fit in, and diversity and inclusion is a central

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<v Speaker 1>part of what millennials are looking for. So having strategies

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<v Speaker 1>that move beyond compliance, that engage leaders, that are bottom up,

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<v Speaker 1>that include psychology and behavioral analysis, they work. So um My,

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<v Speaker 1>My hope and my expectation is that more and more

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<v Speaker 1>companies would be um moving towards that, and also that

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<v Speaker 1>that judges would be recommending these strategies because they're consistent

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<v Speaker 1>with what we know about psychology and science and how

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<v Speaker 1>the brain works. Thank you so much, it's been a

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<v Speaker 1>fascinating discussion. That's Valerie pretty Greenaway. She is a professor

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<v Speaker 1>at Columbia University. That's it for this edition of Bloomberg Law.

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<v Speaker 1>Will be back Monday at one pm Wall Street time.

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<v Speaker 1>Please join us then, thanks to our producer David Sacherman

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<v Speaker 1>and our technical director Chris try Comey. Coming up next

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Markets with guest host Lisa Abramowitz. Lisa, give us

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<v Speaker 1>one idea of a thing you're gonna be talking about.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll be talking about the new path of Irma. That's

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<v Speaker 1>something that's on all our minds. Thanks so much for

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<v Speaker 1>joining us. I'm June Brasso. This is Bloomberg