1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,520
Speaker 1: Do corporate diversity training programs work? Harvard professor Frank Dobbin

2
00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,600
Speaker 1: said no in a Harvard Business Review article last year,

3
00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:12,120
Speaker 1: writing that most diversity programs have failed because they alienate managers.

4
00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:17,320
Speaker 1: Dobbin instead endorsed a voluntary consciousness raising program that includes

5
00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,919
Speaker 1: rank and file staff along with supervisors. One bank is

6
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,400
Speaker 1: willing to give the alternative a try. As part of

7
00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,840
Speaker 1: a thirty five and a half million dollar settlement with

8
00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,560
Speaker 1: black financial advisors, Wells Fargo has agreed to take some

9
00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,880
Speaker 1: measures to create a fairer workplace, borrowing some ideas from Dobbin,

10
00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,520
Speaker 1: including focus groups with senior business leaders and black brokers.

11
00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,920
Speaker 1: Will it work here to discuss? That is? Valerie Purdy Greenaway.

12
00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,360
Speaker 1: She's a professor at Columbia University and also the director

13
00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,680
Speaker 1: of the Laboratory of Intergroup Relations and the Social Mind

14
00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,160
Speaker 1: at Columbia. Valerie MetLife agreed to pay more than thirty

15
00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,880
Speaker 1: two million dollars to settle a racial discrimination employment case

16
00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,240
Speaker 1: this year, and four years ago Mary Lynch set a

17
00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,679
Speaker 1: similar case for a record sixty million dollars. Do these

18
00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,480
Speaker 1: kinds of settlements lead to changes in the diversity of

19
00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:13,520
Speaker 1: the workforce? That's a great question. In general, they tend

20
00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,960
Speaker 1: not to and the reason why is because there is

21
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,920
Speaker 1: so much um uh animosity that goes along with the

22
00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:27,320
Speaker 1: legal cases. Oftentimes the settlements UM the benefits go directly

23
00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,560
Speaker 1: to the plaintiffs, and it doesn't address the broader cultural

24
00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:38,160
Speaker 1: systemic issues that have been hurting and derailing people's careers.

25
00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:43,120
Speaker 1: And in this case, the target where African American financial advisors.

26
00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,920
Speaker 1: But research shows that when there is a settlement like

27
00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,640
Speaker 1: this many many other groups are subtly affected as well,

28
00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,639
Speaker 1: um individuals with disabilities, women in leadership positions, other ethnic groups,

29
00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,840
Speaker 1: other religious groups. So um and in short, they attends

30
00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,880
Speaker 1: the settlement is a financial corrective, but more is needed. Well,

31
00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,720
Speaker 1: it almost feels like the the traditional way of doing

32
00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,600
Speaker 1: it is something of a compliance model. It's kind of

33
00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,520
Speaker 1: a top down thing that what we're talking about. Well,

34
00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,720
Speaker 1: as Fargo, it seems like it's more bottom up in

35
00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,280
Speaker 1: a way. Is that right? Yes? Absolutely, And Frank's work

36
00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,360
Speaker 1: is so crystal clear. Compliance models tend not to work. UM.

37
00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:32,280
Speaker 1: Managers are highly intelligent, highly motivated, and oftentimes they want

38
00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,519
Speaker 1: to do good. UM. Compliance models are inconsistent with what

39
00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,280
Speaker 1: we know about how the brain works. Uh much of

40
00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:45,120
Speaker 1: bias is unconscious. We're unaware of it, and it's baked

41
00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:50,120
Speaker 1: into many of our um corporate practices. So by having

42
00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:54,400
Speaker 1: a voluntary bottom up approach, you can start a really

43
00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:59,560
Speaker 1: targeting where the bias might be, having people feel ownership

44
00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,880
Speaker 1: and agency around, you know, trying to make the workplace,

45
00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,560
Speaker 1: culture and leadership UM better. UM you can log roll

46
00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,639
Speaker 1: or enhance the whatever programs are already working, and then

47
00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:18,040
Speaker 1: you can target unconscious unconscious bias and and work on

48
00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,160
Speaker 1: strategies to mitigate bias. So a bottom up approach is

49
00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:28,280
Speaker 1: much more effective than than compliance. Unfortunately, compliance is oftentimes necessary,

50
00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,800
Speaker 1: but it tends not to be effective. Valarie tell us

51
00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,440
Speaker 1: more about these suggested focus groups and how they differ

52
00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:40,440
Speaker 1: from workshops in diversity training programs. So part of what

53
00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:46,560
Speaker 1: needs to happen is leaders need to be really comfortable

54
00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,040
Speaker 1: just being able to talk about identity. In financial institutions,

55
00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,880
Speaker 1: most financial institutions have a color blind approach that they

56
00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 1: don't really talk about identity and and and because of that,

57
00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,840
Speaker 1: there really is no language event to talk about sponsorship, mentoring,

58
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,320
Speaker 1: mitigating unconscious bias. When you have focus groups where you

59
00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,840
Speaker 1: just get people who want to you know, um, just

60
00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,120
Speaker 1: make the workplace better. They're in a room, they have

61
00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,960
Speaker 1: a variety of different identities, experiences, UM, intellectual diversity in

62
00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,640
Speaker 1: there in the room, just talking to each other, um,

63
00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:29,120
Speaker 1: and not focusing on you know, what are the settlement pieces,

64
00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:34,480
Speaker 1: but just talking about solutions. This has so many psychological

65
00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,880
Speaker 1: benefits and sort of humanizes diversity. You can localize problem solving,

66
00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,560
Speaker 1: you can pick things that are going to really accelerate change,

67
00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:48,520
Speaker 1: and it creates a different psychology of psychology around openness

68
00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:53,159
Speaker 1: and authenticity and genuineness. Um, that's really needed. Are there

69
00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,440
Speaker 1: metrics fallorie that you know a company like Wells Fargo

70
00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,640
Speaker 1: could use to measure whether this different approaches working. Absolutely,

71
00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,680
Speaker 1: so you know, focus groups do not mean that they

72
00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,320
Speaker 1: can't be rigorous. You can have randomly assigned focus groups

73
00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,320
Speaker 1: where where within a particular division you would have a

74
00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,200
Speaker 1: group of leaders that would be involved in a focus group,

75
00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,840
Speaker 1: you would have another group of leaders maybe you know,

76
00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,920
Speaker 1: compare compare them to a compliance strategy. You can also

77
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,480
Speaker 1: use what's called a lag design where you have certain

78
00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,720
Speaker 1: focus groups happening in September and then you have another

79
00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,720
Speaker 1: set of focus groups happening in November. These kind of

80
00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:38,520
Speaker 1: strategies integrate the rigorous experimental methods UM, which can tell

81
00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:43,200
Speaker 1: us what works and why, along with the openness and

82
00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:48,200
Speaker 1: fluidity of of the focus groups. Valerie, does mentoring fit

83
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:53,960
Speaker 1: in somewhere here, absolutely, But not just mentoring. Mentoring is

84
00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:59,400
Speaker 1: UM sort of telling people, oftentimes members of underrepresented groups,

85
00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,039
Speaker 1: you know large, you know how to make it through

86
00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:08,040
Speaker 1: the company. Where it's really at is sponsorship. Sponsorship means

87
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,720
Speaker 1: who am I pushing without them in the room, without

88
00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,800
Speaker 1: them knowing it, moving around their careers, giving them stretch assignments.

89
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,200
Speaker 1: This happens oftentimes unconsciously and as a function of homofely.

90
00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,800
Speaker 1: We like to push people that are like us or

91
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,120
Speaker 1: that remind us who we were a long time ago.

92
00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:31,560
Speaker 1: That process really drives promotion, and that is an implicit,

93
00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,440
Speaker 1: oftentimes secretive process that people don't even know that they're

94
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,080
Speaker 1: engaged in that needs to be brought to light. So

95
00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:45,680
Speaker 1: not just mentorship, but sponsorship and equitable sponsorship across groups. Valerie,

96
00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,520
Speaker 1: would you expect that you're going to see more settlements

97
00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,960
Speaker 1: in discrimination cases, you know, get companies involved with this

98
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,920
Speaker 1: sort of bottom up approach and focus groups approach. It's

99
00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,200
Speaker 1: it's hard for me to to predict that. UM, I

100
00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:09,080
Speaker 1: believe that companies are motivated to find solutions about what works.

101
00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:14,160
Speaker 1: I mean, millennials are looking for scores. They want to

102
00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,920
Speaker 1: know if this is a place where where they where

103
00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,080
Speaker 1: they fit in, and diversity and inclusion is a central

104
00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:26,200
Speaker 1: part of what millennials are looking for. So having strategies

105
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:31,280
Speaker 1: that move beyond compliance, that engage leaders, that are bottom up,

106
00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:38,440
Speaker 1: that include psychology and behavioral analysis, they work. So um My,

107
00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,120
Speaker 1: My hope and my expectation is that more and more

108
00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,360
Speaker 1: companies would be um moving towards that, and also that

109
00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,120
Speaker 1: that judges would be recommending these strategies because they're consistent

110
00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,560
Speaker 1: with what we know about psychology and science and how

111
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,760
Speaker 1: the brain works. Thank you so much, it's been a

112
00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,880
Speaker 1: fascinating discussion. That's Valerie pretty Greenaway. She is a professor

113
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,080
Speaker 1: at Columbia University. That's it for this edition of Bloomberg Law.

114
00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,560
Speaker 1: Will be back Monday at one pm Wall Street time.

115
00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,520
Speaker 1: Please join us then, thanks to our producer David Sacherman

116
00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,880
Speaker 1: and our technical director Chris try Comey. Coming up next

117
00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:18,640
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Markets with guest host Lisa Abramowitz. Lisa, give us

118
00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,560
Speaker 1: one idea of a thing you're gonna be talking about.

119
00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,080
Speaker 1: We'll be talking about the new path of Irma. That's

120
00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,160
Speaker 1: something that's on all our minds. Thanks so much for

121
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,040
Speaker 1: joining us. I'm June Brasso. This is Bloomberg