Speaker 1: This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories,
Speaker 1: the show where America is the Star and the American
Speaker 1: people coming to you from.
Speaker 2: The city where the West begins, Fort Worth, Texas.
Speaker 1: One of the greatest controversies to come out of World
Speaker 1: War two is whether the dropping of the atomic bomb
Speaker 1: on Japan was necessary to bring about the war's end.
Speaker 1: Here to tell the story is Kenne La Court, host
Speaker 1: of the popular YouTube channel Elephants in Rooms.
Speaker 2: Let's take a listen.
Speaker 3: It is an atomic bomb. It is a harnessing of
Speaker 3: the basic power of the universe. The first from which
Speaker 3: the Sun draws its power has been loose against those
Speaker 3: who rough war to the far East.
Speaker 4: Full war is a crime, arguably, but the best thing
Speaker 4: you can do in the war is to end it.
Speaker 3: Let's there being no mistake, we shall completely destroy Japan's
Speaker 3: power to make war oo a line.
Speaker 4: In the early hours of August sixth, nineteen forty five,
Speaker 4: the world changed forever. An American bomber dropped a single
Speaker 4: bomb over Hiroshima, Japan. It unleashed a force the world
Speaker 4: had never seen, and in seconds, the entire city was destroyed.
Speaker 4: Buildings vanished, one hundred thousand people died. It was the
Speaker 4: most horrific weapon ever used on humanity, and three days
Speaker 4: later the United States did it again. The question is
Speaker 4: why why the second bomb within a relatively short amount
Speaker 4: of time. Was it necessary or would Japan have surround
Speaker 4: after realizing the devastation of the first attack. Was it
Speaker 4: really about scaring the Soviet Union? We'll look at the
Speaker 4: layers of strategy, hope, fear, and anger. In the last
Speaker 4: hours of World War II, the United States was slow
Speaker 4: to enter the war. The country was still in an
Speaker 4: isolationist mood, still bitter about World War One, which killed
Speaker 4: over one hundred thousand Americans. Now I've read a lot
Speaker 4: of history, and I still can't easily explain what World
Speaker 4: War One was all about, beyond the assassination of Archduke
Speaker 4: Ferdinand and a whole lot of treaties. What was clear, though,
Speaker 4: was that it didn't solve any problems, and twenty years
Speaker 4: later Europe was added again. The mood in the US
Speaker 4: was to let those people deal with it. But everything
Speaker 4: changed on December seventh, nineteen forty one, with the Japanese
Speaker 4: attack on Pearl Harbor. It killed almost twenty five hundred
Speaker 4: Americans and instantly United a divided nation. Within days, hundreds
Speaker 4: of thousand of Americans volunteered for the military, with some
Speaker 4: enlistment centers staying open twenty four hours a day. There
Speaker 4: were stories throughout the country of guys being rejected for
Speaker 4: service and then killing themselves out of disappointment and fighting
Speaker 4: this war against the Nazis in Japan. Americans didn't see
Speaker 4: it as a bunch of archdukes fighting over some disputed land.
Speaker 4: As America plunged into the Second World War, this was
Speaker 4: seen as a fight against clear cut villains, tyranny, oppression,
Speaker 4: and the darkness that threatened to engulf the world. And
Speaker 4: after years of bitter fighting, the US had turned the
Speaker 4: tide against Japan. Massive bombing raids pounded Japanese cities, factories,
Speaker 4: military installations, laying the groundwork for an invasion. Japan was
Speaker 4: on the losing path, but America's path to victory was
Speaker 4: going to be bloody. We should look at the last
Speaker 4: major battle, the Battle of Okinawa, because it gave a
Speaker 4: grim forecast of what an invasion of mainland Japan would
Speaker 4: actually cost. It was a rugged island and a stepping
Speaker 4: stone to the Japanese mainland. The battle was a glimpse
Speaker 4: into hell. Thirteen thousand Americans killed, seventy thousand wounded. For
Speaker 4: the Japanese, almost the entire garrison of over one hundred
Speaker 4: thousand men fought to the death. Another one hundred thousand
Speaker 4: civilians on the island were killed, many by mass suicide.
Speaker 4: Encouraged by the Japanese military, America's island hopping strategy was
Speaker 4: met with fanatical defense. Every battle came at a horrific price,
Speaker 4: showcasing the Japanese determination to fight to the last man
Speaker 4: for their homeland. Operation Downfall, the plan to finish off
Speaker 4: the war. They estimated American casualties from two hundred and
Speaker 4: twenty thousand to several million, and estimated Japanese military and
Speaker 4: civilian casualties from the millions to the tens of millions.
Speaker 4: Against that backdrop of slaughter and the promise of even
Speaker 4: bloodier invasion was the Manhattan Project. It was the greatest
Speaker 4: scientific gamble of wartime, costing the equivalent of thirty billion
Speaker 4: dollars and used one hundred and thirty thousand workers. Officials
Speaker 4: hoped it'd be more than just another weapon, but one
Speaker 4: that would end the war. President Roosevelt had hoped the
Speaker 4: bomb could be used against Germany, whose scientists were also
Speaker 4: working on nuclear weapons. But he died about two weeks
Speaker 4: before Hitler killed himself, and it wasn't until he became
Speaker 4: president that Harry Truman even learned about the Manhattan Project.
Speaker 4: Before they had working bombs, officials debated how they would
Speaker 4: use them. Some of the Manhattan Projects scientists argued for
Speaker 4: a demonstration over a desolate area, but that was rejected
Speaker 4: over concerns that it wouldn't be convincing enough, or that
Speaker 4: a dud might embolden Japan even more, or that they
Speaker 4: might even move POW's to where the bomb might explode.
Speaker 4: Dropping multiple bombs was initially proposed a year beforehand by
Speaker 4: Rear Admiral William Purcell, who thought that two or more
Speaker 4: bombs would be required to shock the Japanese into surrender.
Speaker 4: The first one would show the bomb's power, and the
Speaker 4: second would let Japan know that the US had a
Speaker 4: stockpile that could easily destroy their entire country. It was
Speaker 4: all theoretical, though, until President Truman got word that the
Speaker 4: Trinity explosion in New Mexico was a success that the
Speaker 4: US was a nuclear power. He'd only been president for
Speaker 4: three months now, By all accounts, Truman made the decision
Speaker 4: to use the bombs relatively quickly and decisively. He never
Speaker 4: wavered or publicly questioned that decision in his entire lifetime.
Speaker 4: In fact, Truman's go ahead order for nuclear bombs didn't
Speaker 4: even get into the details of how to use them.
Speaker 4: They didn't even require the military to get approval for
Speaker 4: later bombings. Truman wrote in his diary, this weapon is
Speaker 4: to be used against Japan between now and August tenth.
Speaker 4: I've told the Secretary of War, mister Stimpson, to use
Speaker 4: it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors of
Speaker 4: the target, and not women and children. Even if the
Speaker 4: Japs are savages, ruthless, merciless and fanatic, we as the
Speaker 4: leader of the world for common welfare, cannot drop that
Speaker 4: terrible bomb on the old capital or the new. He
Speaker 4: and I are in accord the target will be a
Speaker 4: purely military one. Nevertheless, the vast majority of deaths in
Speaker 4: Hiroshima were civilians.
Speaker 1: And you've been listening to Ken Lecourt tell the story
Speaker 1: of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and giving us
Speaker 1: a context for all of it, and in riveting fashion,
Speaker 1: the numbers were clear. These were the estimates of lives
Speaker 1: to be lost if we kept going the Americans, not
Speaker 1: just our lives, our men. When we come back more
Speaker 1: of the story, the horrible and important story of the
Speaker 1: bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
Speaker 2: Here on our American Stories.
Speaker 1: Lie h Habib here, and I'd like to encourage you to
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Speaker 1: Please subscribe to the Our American Stories podcast on Apple Podcasts,
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Speaker 1: continue with our American Stories and the story of the
Speaker 1: bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Here to continue with the
Speaker 1: storytelling is ken Lecourt, host of the popular YouTube channel.
Speaker 2: Elephants and Rooms. Let's continue with the story.
Speaker 4: After the bombing, there was shock and confusion within the
Speaker 4: Japanese high command. A city's instant obliteration was unprecedented, and
Speaker 4: a breakdown of communication with Hiroshima also slowed information there.
Speaker 4: They first didn't believe that the US had the technical
Speaker 4: ability to build and deliver an atomic weapon until they
Speaker 4: sent scientists to Hiroshima, who confirmed it. Truman announced it
Speaker 4: to the war.
Speaker 3: A shark time ago, an American aeroplane dropped one bomb
Speaker 3: on Hiroshima and destroyed its usefulness to the anime in
Speaker 3: their present farm. These bombs are now in production and
Speaker 3: even more power for firms are in development. It is
Speaker 3: an atomic bomb.
Speaker 4: The United States continued its tactic of dropping leaflets over
Speaker 4: cities to speak to the citizens, and now they told
Speaker 4: them about the atomic weapon. The leaflets warned that the
Speaker 4: US had the most destructive explosive ever devised by man,
Speaker 4: and told the Japanese to evacuate their cities. US radio
Speaker 4: broadcast a similar message into Japan every fifteen minutes, stating
Speaker 4: that more cities would be destroyed. But Japan hadn't been
Speaker 4: defeated in two thousand years and they weren't going to
Speaker 4: give up easily. In the Japanese Supreme War Council, some
Speaker 4: advocated surrender, while others argued to continue the fight. They
Speaker 4: hoped to hold out until the ground invasion began and
Speaker 4: inflict so many casualties that they get a better settlement
Speaker 4: that might leave their government in power. The US also
Speaker 4: intercepted a message from Admiral Toyota, who believed that no
Speaker 4: more than one or two more bombs could be prepared quickly.
Speaker 4: He argued for a fight to the last man. The
Speaker 4: American general saw no reason to wait. Nag Asaki was
Speaker 4: destroyed three days later. So why that second bomb? Why
Speaker 4: so quickly? The stated reasoning from Truman and military leaders
Speaker 4: has been consistent and clear. They say they wanted to
Speaker 4: end the war quickly, likely saving hundreds of thousands of
Speaker 4: American and Japanese lives. None of Truman's generals advised against
Speaker 4: using the bombs, although later some would express regret. Admiral
Speaker 4: bull Halsey said later that the bomb was an unnecessary experiment.
Speaker 4: They had this toy and they wanted to try it out,
Speaker 4: so they dropped it. Truman's chief of staff, Admiral William Lahey,
Speaker 4: first predicted the bomb would be a dud, then after
Speaker 4: the war said it was of no material assistance. Admiral
Speaker 4: Nimitz and President Eisenhower also criticized its use again after
Speaker 4: the fact. During the war, though the concept of shak
Speaker 4: and awe ruled the day, America had only two nuclear
Speaker 4: weapons that had never dropped, one from a plane, and
Speaker 4: one of the designs had never been tested at all.
Speaker 4: They believed they'd need a massive psychological blow before the
Speaker 4: Japanese would even consider surrendering. Now, one theory that became
Speaker 4: more popular in recent years is that the second bomb
Speaker 4: was to show the world, especially the Soviet Union, the
Speaker 4: full power of the US Arsenal. The US relationship with
Speaker 4: the Soviets was breaking down after the fighting in Europe stopped,
Speaker 4: and there was a fear that the Soviet expansion was
Speaker 4: already underway. Initially, the US had welcomed Russian help against
Speaker 4: the Japanese, and Stalin had declared war against Japan two
Speaker 4: days after Hiroshima. To some, the purpose of the quick
Speaker 4: timing of the second bomb was to send a clear
Speaker 4: message to the world of American supremacy and a way
Speaker 4: to stop the Russians from meddling in post war Asia. Now,
Speaker 4: with the hindsight of the Cold War and the nuclear
Speaker 4: arm rais that seemed somewhat obvious. There was a huge
Speaker 4: benefit to America having nuclear weapons and a willingness to
Speaker 4: use them. On the flip side, though there's no evidence
Speaker 4: of it. In historical records, no meeting notes or diaries
Speaker 4: or memoirs showed that this was a factor. It definitely
Speaker 4: may have been a bonus factor, but Truman had laid
Speaker 4: out a plan to defeat Japan as quickly as possible.
Speaker 4: The military totally supported that notion and implemented it, and
Speaker 4: no one wasted any time anywhere. They actually dropped the
Speaker 4: bomb on Hiroshima just three weeks after the Trinity test.
Speaker 4: There was also the possibility that Japan could get its
Speaker 4: own nuclear bomb. It was concern, but not as worrisome
Speaker 4: to the top brass as the Nazis nuclear program had been.
Speaker 4: America knew Japan was trying, but it had no real
Speaker 4: idea of how far along it was, and we still
Speaker 4: really don't. The Japanese nuclear program was led by Yoshio Nashini,
Speaker 4: and their nuclear research lab had about one hundred researchers.
Speaker 4: Now there's a little known story that after Germany surrendered,
Speaker 4: one of their submarines surrendered in New Hampshire. On board
Speaker 4: was twelve hundred pounds of uranium oxide bound for Japan,
Speaker 4: where they might be able to use it in a
Speaker 4: nuclear program. There were also two Japanese officers on the
Speaker 4: German sub and they were allowed to commit suicide instead
Speaker 4: of turning themselves in. Later after Japan's surrender, the US
Speaker 4: Army found and destroyed five Japanese cyclotrons which could help
Speaker 4: convert uranium into a bomb. But there's another factor that
Speaker 4: we have to look into as well, anger and hatred.
Speaker 4: There was an increased hatred towards the Japanese that started
Speaker 4: with Pearl Harbor and increased as Japan fought. You can't
Speaker 4: understand World War II without a clear idea of how
Speaker 4: horrific it was, of how horrific Japan was. Now they've
Speaker 4: been pretty mello recently, but Imperial Japan was a militaristic, racist,
Speaker 4: murderous regime every bit as bad as Nazi Germany. There
Speaker 4: was an Asian holocaust that we hardly ever hear about,
Speaker 4: but the Japanese military murdered tens of millions of people
Speaker 4: in China, Korea, the Philippines, Singapore, and Indonesia. In Ninjing,
Speaker 4: China alone, they killed hundreds of thousands of civilians and
Speaker 4: buried them in mass graves. There were tens of thousands
Speaker 4: of rapes. In fact, the Japanese essentially mass produced rape.
Speaker 4: They literally created thousands of comfort stations where their soldiers
Speaker 4: could rape native women. They say as many as two
Speaker 4: hundred thousand women in conquered countries, and they treated their
Speaker 4: prisoners of war worse than any country in modern times torture, starvation.
Speaker 4: It's estimated that about a third of American POWs died
Speaker 4: while in Japanese captivity. That compares to about four percent
Speaker 4: of POW's dying in Nazi captivity. The Japanese military used
Speaker 4: live humans as target practice for recruits, bayonetting the ones
Speaker 4: who weren't killed outright. The human experiments they did at
Speaker 4: Unit seven thirty one, sometimes called the Asian Auschwitz, should
Speaker 4: have been unthinkable, as bad as anything that a human
Speaker 4: could think of to do to one another. They did there.
Speaker 4: You can research that one at your own risk, and
Speaker 4: there are hundreds of documented examples of cannibalism of defeated soldiers.
Speaker 4: These weren't driven by hunger, but by team building exercises
Speaker 4: supervised by their commanders. The world hasn't seen war like
Speaker 4: this in our lifetime, and killing a few hundred thousand
Speaker 4: Japanese to end it wasn't seen as excessive in nineteen
Speaker 4: forty five. In fact, a nineteen forty five gallop Pole
Speaker 4: right after the war showed that only ten percent of
Speaker 4: Americans disapproved of the decision to use nuclear bombs. No
Speaker 4: one was happier about it than one hundred and forty
Speaker 4: thousand prisoners held in Japan, especially because many of them
Speaker 4: knew that there was a kill all order where most
Speaker 4: or all of them would be executed if an Allied
Speaker 4: invasion got near Japan. In some cases, those plans were
Speaker 4: actually carried out, but the Nagasaki bomb and the sudden
Speaker 4: Japanese surrender prevented most and even after the Nagasaki bomb,
Speaker 4: the Imperial Council vote to surrender was a three to
Speaker 4: three tie. It wasn't until the Emperor, for the first
Speaker 4: time in a generation, abandoned his ceremonial role and personally
Speaker 4: broke the tie, ordering Japan to surrender. Even then, the
Speaker 4: next day, some senior officers staged a coup to take
Speaker 4: control of the government and continue the fight. Despite the odds,
Speaker 4: they had a sense of honor that placed death above surrender,
Speaker 4: and they wanted to fight it out to the end.
Speaker 4: They seized parts of Tokyo and even burned down the
Speaker 4: home of the Prime Minister before being defeated. So Truman
Speaker 4: in his generals said that they needed that second bomb
Speaker 4: to bring a timely end of the war. And in retrospect,
Speaker 4: it looks to me like they were right. Today, far
Speaker 4: removed from the horrors of war, it's easy to come
Speaker 4: to some different judgments and see different motives. But the
Speaker 4: more I researched it, the more I understood that decision,
Speaker 4: and the more that it seemed to make sense.
Speaker 1: And a terrific job on the production and editing by
Speaker 1: our own Greg Hangler, and a special thanks to Ken Lecourt.
Speaker 1: He's the host of the popular YouTube channel Elephants in Rooms.
Speaker 1: That's Elephants in Rooms and go over to that page.
Speaker 1: You won't stop learning, you won't stop listening and watching.
Speaker 2: And what a story that he told here.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of revisionism looking back in
Speaker 1: time at what someone might have done at a different time.
Speaker 1: But the time was then, and the data and the
Speaker 1: facts on the ground were rough. Truman had to make
Speaker 1: the decision, and made the decision quickly and simply because
Speaker 1: he had done the math, he had done the numbers,
Speaker 1: he had seen the estimates, and he'd.
Speaker 2: Seen the nature of the.
Speaker 1: Enemy and seen the nature of in the end, mass suicides,
Speaker 1: even by women and children. This is a very different
Speaker 1: kind of fighting culture, and Truman had to do very
Speaker 1: different things to end the war. And even after the
Speaker 1: two bombs are dropped, there's still a split vote in
Speaker 1: the high command of the Japanese military to carry on.
Speaker 2: Until the last man, and not just the last man.
Speaker 1: The important point here is the last man, woman and child,
Speaker 1: and the American people were asked impolled on this. Only
Speaker 1: ten percent disagreed, and that's the poll that matters most.
Speaker 1: How we feel about it all these years later, having
Speaker 1: lost nothing, having paid no price. I know my mom
Speaker 1: lost her only brother, and it's removed from me, but
Speaker 1: I still remember the story of the dropping of the
Speaker 1: nuclear bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
Speaker 2: Here on our American stories.