1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 2: It could happen here. That's the podcast that you're listening to. 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 2: I'm your host, Nia Wong. It's a podcast about things 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: falling apart and putting them back together again. This is 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 2: a very very immediate falling apart and then trying to 6 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 2: put it back together again. 7 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 3: Episode. 8 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 2: Today we're talking about something we haven't really talked about 9 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: on the show very much, which is the music industry 10 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 2: and the absolute fiasco that is streaming services within it. 11 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: And here to talk with me today are two people 12 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 2: who are trying to fix some of those problems. And 13 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 2: those two people are Simon and Alex who are co 14 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 2: founders and worker owners of a new platform project initiative 15 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 2: many such words called MIRLO. And Yeah, both of you, 16 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 2: welcome to the show. 17 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 3: Thanks so much. It's a pleasure to be here. 18 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, excited to be on here. 19 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm excited to talk with you both first 20 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 2: about sort of the issues with the existing sort of 21 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 2: market for music distribution, because there's been over the last 22 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 2: really twenty years, it's been a sort of seismic shift 23 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 2: in how music distribution has functioned from a model that 24 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 2: was previously largely built on things like record sales to 25 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: the sort of streaming platforms. So yeah, can you talk 26 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: about what the issues you see with the sort of 27 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 2: current model are and how that kind of led you 28 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 2: to do something different. 29 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, I mean for me, that's the story of 30 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 5: me growing up with music, you know, because I was 31 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 5: born in the nineteen eighties, so you know, my first 32 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 5: connection to you know, to music was through playing in 33 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 5: my elementary school band, learning the trumpet and then the trombone, 34 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 5: but also you know, beginning to buy CDs and I remember, 35 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 5: I think it might have been Will Smith's Big Willy 36 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 5: Style or whatever that like in the early nineties, I 37 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 5: think was the first CD that I bought. But you know, 38 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 5: that was how I you know, music came into my world. 39 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 5: There were also some cassette tapes too, I think, like 40 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 5: when I was younger, it was cassette tapes, and by 41 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 5: the time I was the one, like, you know, spending 42 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 5: my allowance money, it was CDs. But then you know, 43 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 5: by the end of the decade, by the time in 44 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 5: high school, you know, napster happens. 45 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 3: I was, I think in middle school when that happened. 46 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: So we should explain what napster is because I think 47 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 2: we've now reached the point where it's faded. 48 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 5: Napster is a big deal because all of a sudden, 49 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 5: I can speak from my you know, memory of it 50 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 5: as a twelve year old or whatever. 51 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 3: I was probably. 52 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 5: Fourteen maybe when when when Napster was a thing. I 53 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 5: remember going over to my neighbor's house who I hung 54 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 5: out with after school a lot, and he had this 55 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 5: program on his computer where he could download any song 56 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 5: that he wanted, and it was just like this incredible, 57 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 5: mind blowing new thing. 58 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 3: Of course, that's. 59 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 5: Just from the end point of the distribution, right that's 60 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 5: from that perspective, it was this absolutely transformative experience. But 61 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 5: of course, all of the steps that got into getting 62 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,679 Speaker 5: the music there was putting some carts before some horses, 63 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 5: you know, and a lot of it was, you know, 64 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 5: getting there via unauthorized leaks or other ways that Because 65 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 5: it was all of a sudden so simple to share 66 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 5: the physical sounds through the new kinds of media channels 67 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 5: that were available through the Internet obviously and through software, 68 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 5: the folks at Napster were able to really jump ahead 69 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 5: of that and in classic Silicon Valley fashion, you know, 70 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 5: disrupt the industry. And all of that was really happening 71 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 5: with musicians early on, right, this was even before the 72 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 5: dot com bubble burst. You know, Napster was riding that 73 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 5: wave and a big part of that sort of first 74 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 5: arrival of Silicon Valley startup technology really arriving in millions 75 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 5: of you know, living rooms and home office computers and 76 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 5: you know all that. And so I think historically, you know, 77 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 5: with technology, this really does play out that oftentimes musicians 78 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 5: are the ones that get disrupted first. And for decades 79 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 5: this has been you can look at the history of 80 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 5: the twentieth century and the history of media in the 81 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 5: twentieth century as this tension between musicians doing what they 82 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 5: do and technologists doing what they do, and capitalists using 83 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 5: the technology to extract value from the musicians, you know. 84 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 5: And then there have of course been lots of ways 85 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 5: that musicians have organized and fought back and you know, 86 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 5: wrote their own chapters in the story. 87 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:32,679 Speaker 3: And I think that we're. 88 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 5: Just just starting to get to the point where that 89 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 5: is happening in. 90 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 3: This latest episode. 91 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 5: Napster is you know, twenty five years old at this 92 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 5: point in terms of when that moment happened, and of course, 93 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 5: the reaction to Napster from the entrenched music industry, which 94 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 5: we're all consolidating under these massive media conglomerates. At that time, 95 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 5: they fought back kind of old school, and I remember 96 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 5: I was in college when they were suing college kids 97 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 5: for downloading stuff on Napster, for having files on your 98 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 5: computer that you know, weren't authorized or whatever. Those were 99 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 5: my peers, you know, I didn't actually know anybody personally 100 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 5: that this was happening to. But this was you know, 101 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 5: this was something that we were all aware of and 102 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 5: we were all kind of figuring out together. 103 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: There's a really good Corey doctor book that's like a 104 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: fictionalized account of what this period was like called Pirate Cinema. 105 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 2: That is great, so if you ever want to yeah, 106 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: if people want to read that, it is very good. 107 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 2: It's about the sort of film version of the same 108 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: fight that was happening. 109 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 3: Exactly. 110 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 5: And they were, I mean, no holds barred, Like, they 111 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 5: had massive budgets for expensive lawyers, and they just sent 112 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 5: them after whoever they could, thinking that that would stem 113 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 5: the tide. 114 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 3: And obviously that wasn't going. 115 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 5: To stop anything, because what Napster signaled was this massive 116 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 5: technologically catalyzed paradigm shift where the way that people listen 117 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 5: to music was just radically transforming before everyone's eyes. And 118 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 5: it took the music industry side of it a little 119 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 5: while to catch up to that reality. But once they did, 120 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 5: they started trying to figure out, Okay, what are the 121 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 5: ways that we can get a cut right, obviously if 122 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 5: everyone's just doing this illegally, and you know this is 123 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 5: just if everybody is doing something illegal at the same time, 124 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 5: even we can't send enough lawyers to sue everybody out 125 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 5: of existence, so we need to figure out how to 126 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 5: make this work. And that's when you know, there started 127 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 5: to be experiments with other big corporate players in the 128 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 5: technology industry. I remember from my perspective, it was the 129 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 5: iTunes store. I remember ripping all of my CDs that 130 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 5: I bought in high school, like spending a whole weekend 131 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 5: just ripping them all into my iTunes library and kind 132 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 5: of curating it and having my you know, all of 133 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 5: my MP three's and iTunes and I had an iPod 134 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 5: and that was where I would listened to things. And 135 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 5: I didn't even really purchase a lot of the like 136 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 5: because they had ninety nine cent tracks. That was kind 137 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 5: of the thing, was like you could pay a dollar 138 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 5: and you can get what you wanted. I didn't buy 139 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 5: that much music by that point because mostly it was 140 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 5: transferring files that I had burned from CDs. But that 141 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 5: was how the industry was kind of making its peace 142 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 5: with this disruption, was to partner with Apple, and then 143 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 5: later Spotify comes onto the scene with this promise of 144 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 5: the universal jukebox. Right like, we're going to build the 145 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 5: tool that is going to allow for any listener to 146 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,239 Speaker 5: just pay a subscription and they can listen to anything 147 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 5: they want on the internet. Because you can hire it 148 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,239 Speaker 5: anything on the internet. We're going to make the legal 149 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 5: way to do it, and so we're going to let 150 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 5: people pay, and we're going to design all of the 151 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 5: back end. We're going to centralize it in our you know, 152 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 5: technological systems, and we're going to build this tool that 153 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 5: can allow anybody to listen to music anytime without having 154 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 5: to in the back of their mind be worried about 155 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 5: if they're stealing from a musician or if you know, 156 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 5: they're going to get sued a record label or whatever. 157 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 5: Right so, and of course the record companies were all 158 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 5: in on that, and that is where you. 159 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 3: Know there I haven't seen all of the books or whatnot. 160 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 5: But it's very clear that you know, the major labels 161 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 5: were big you know, equity owners in Spotify, so they're 162 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 5: basically making big bets on Spotify. And then the tension 163 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 5: that has been navigated is, Okay, how do they maintain 164 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 5: the value of the catalog, the back catalog that the 165 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 5: intellectual property rights of all the recordings that throughout you know, 166 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 5: the history of recorded music, they have consolidated into these 167 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 5: you know, catalog portfolios of sounds and songs. So that's 168 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 5: valuable and they need to get their piece from that, 169 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 5: but then they also need to get their piece from Spotify. 170 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,239 Speaker 5: The business you know, continuing to exist and that subscriber 171 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 5: revenue from people who are paying for the privilege to 172 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 5: be able to listen to any song that they want 173 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 5: at the click of a button, and that has Yeah, 174 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 5: it's created some weird incentives. 175 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 3: Particularly the group of people at the end. 176 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 5: Of the day that really gets left out of that 177 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 5: are the musicians, right, because throughout history, you know, the 178 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 5: partnerships with people who distribute music have been very exploitive. Right, 179 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 5: It's like, Okay, I'll give you an advance to go 180 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 5: record your music, give you all this creative control, you know, 181 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 5: set up the studio time, do all the legwork to 182 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 5: make it so you can do whatever you want as 183 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 5: a musician. But then we're keeping the master recordings. You know, 184 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 5: we're keeping a percentage of every sale that you make. 185 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 5: So it does become this kind of deal where the labels, 186 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 5: over the longer term, benefit much much more than the musicians. 187 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 5: And then the deal with Spotify really amplified that because 188 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 5: the labels are making sure they get their cut, but 189 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 5: they're not always making sure that the musicians get their cut. 190 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 5: And even the musicians getting their cut has to go 191 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 5: through the labels first, and so the labels have this 192 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 5: relationship with the technology company that's distributing the files themselves, 193 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 5: and that's kind of of the bargain where it stayed 194 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 5: right and then most recently that became even more amplified. 195 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 5: It sort of turned up the volume on the disparity 196 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 5: in this dynamic when Spotify made the decision to demonetize 197 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 5: many of the songs that are on the platform. So 198 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 5: it used to be that you would get some fraction 199 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 5: of a cent for every time that someone streamed your song, 200 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 5: and Spotify had this complex algorithm for determining how you 201 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 5: got paid out, and they recently tweaked that algorithm so 202 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 5: that if you don't meet a certain threshold of plays, you. 203 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 3: Don't get anything. 204 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 5: So you could have your music on Spotify, could be 205 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 5: music that you worked really hard and you know, even 206 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 5: invested your own time and money and resources into putting 207 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 5: out there, and you don't get. 208 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 3: A penny of it, and you don't get you say, 209 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 3: and why? And that's the. 210 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 5: Starting point from a musicians perspective about where things are at. 211 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 4: I think it's also interesting to think about how the 212 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 4: way those technologies, systems and the way that the music 213 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 4: distribution has changed has also changed the way that music 214 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 4: gets made. So you see a lot more, you know, 215 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 4: very big name musicians releasing single tracks to big acclaim 216 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 4: because now the incentive, and with the tweaking of the incentive, 217 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 4: is that you want individual tracks that are making millions 218 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 4: and millions of plays. 219 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:27,479 Speaker 3: So it really becomes. 220 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 4: About that rather than and you know that can be 221 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 4: fairly value neutral, you know, album versus track or whatever, 222 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 4: but it is really influencing the way that you know, 223 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 4: the first twenty seconds or so of a song are 224 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 4: the most important, So the structure of songs are changing 225 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 4: to suit you know what, what actual music gets made 226 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 4: because people skip the song, then it doesn't make any money. 227 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 4: And yeah, So the way that the technology and capital 228 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 4: and the incentives of capital have changed to actually shape 229 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 4: the culture. 230 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 3: That consuming, I think it's very interesting. 231 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, And speaking of the way that capital and capital 232 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 2: incentives changes the structure of what you're consuming, we need 233 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: to take an ad break. 234 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 3: And we are back. 235 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: So I think one of the kind of bleak things 236 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 2: about this kind of era of media distribution has been 237 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 2: how kind of staggeringly impossible it's felt to resist any 238 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 2: of these forces, largely because you know, now you have 239 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 2: the power effectively of these massive tech companies and then 240 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 2: also the power of the existing sort of studio monopolies 241 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: on the same side, sort of wielding a giant hammer 242 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 2: and hammering everyone else in the line. And this is 243 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 2: the point where I want to ask, Yeah, I start 244 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 2: talking about what mer Low is, So can we talk 245 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 2: a little bit about I guess first how it got started, 246 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 2: and then we can get more into what is it 247 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 2: and how it's attempting to change all of this. 248 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 4: So about two years ago, now, Wow, I was doing 249 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 4: a lot of volunteering with a project called Resonate, which 250 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 4: is a little bit of a precursor to mirror Low 251 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 4: in a way. Resonate is trying to be a alternative 252 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 4: to Spotify. They want to be a streaming service where 253 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 4: you can basically just create playlists, listen to music, and 254 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 4: just and what was novel about Resonate was that they 255 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 4: had a payout structure where every time you played a stream, 256 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 4: you paid a little bit more. So if you pay once, 257 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 4: you pay a cent, If you play twice, you pay 258 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 4: two cents, and then it would increase to paying around 259 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 4: a dollar. And once you paid a dollar for a track, 260 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 4: so you played it like nine times, you owned the 261 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 4: track and then it was yours to pay for it indefinitely. 262 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 4: That was cool. I some work there, but what became 263 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 4: apparent quickly was again these incentive structures where if you 264 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 4: want to do a streaming platform, you want it to 265 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 4: be a universal jukebox. People will use it for the 266 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 4: music that's on it, and they want to hear the 267 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 4: music that they know. And if you want to be 268 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 4: a universal jukebox, you have to wade into. 269 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:26,359 Speaker 3: The realm of royalties. 270 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 4: And one of the things that we didn't mention earlier 271 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 4: is that, as far as I know, maybe it's changed 272 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 4: in the past year or so, Spotify is still not profitable. 273 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 4: Despite massive payouts to the CEO, Spotify doesn't actually turn 274 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 4: a profit. It's just investment driven, and that is in 275 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 4: large part because of the way that royalties work on songs. 276 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 4: It's just really hard to actually make money on top 277 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 4: of all the costs of the infrastructure, which was a 278 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 4: little bit of a clue for us for not working 279 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 4: for a bootstrapped, non VC funded work or co op 280 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 4: with absolutely no money. It was unlikely that that would succeed. 281 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 4: We started also looking at projects that are kind of 282 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 4: in the same space, and we're a little bit more successful. 283 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 4: That's how we got into contact with Alex and Alex 284 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 4: I don't know if you want to talk a little bit. 285 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 3: About Ampled, sure, Yeah. 286 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 5: So Sion mentioned that he was coming out of Resonate 287 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 5: at the same time I was coming out of Ample, 288 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 5: which was a platform cooperative initiative that was started later 289 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 5: part of the Last Second twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. I 290 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 5: forgot exactly when I joined towards the end of twenty 291 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 5: twenty one, and the idea behind Ampled was that it 292 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 5: was going to create essentially a monthly patronage kind of 293 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 5: platform for musicians, so you, you know, release exclusive stuff 294 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 5: on the platform that's yours and that you have the 295 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 5: intellectual property rights too, and you have supporters who pay 296 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 5: a monthly contribution to have access to that content. And 297 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 5: so they had a little I guess it was kind 298 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 5: of like a blog post kind of format that could 299 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 5: you get in bed audio. You could embed videos and 300 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 5: it would go out in and email to your supporters 301 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 5: every month, and they could log into the platform to 302 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 5: listen to your whatever you're releasing there. I joined AMPLE 303 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 5: because I was actually at the time coming out of 304 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 5: some other work that I had been doing and building 305 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 5: democratic workplaces. I had been involved in starting another project 306 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 5: that was trying to organize itself that way, and was 307 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 5: also working with my partner, who's a therapist, to start 308 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 5: a mental health worker cooperative at the same time. So 309 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 5: I was deep in the worker cooperative nerd zone at 310 00:16:58,920 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 5: that point. 311 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 3: But I had I've not been playing very much music. 312 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 5: I'm a trombonist and do jazz and improvised music, and 313 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 5: I had taken a couple of years off really from 314 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 5: playing and was starting to get cranky. There was just 315 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 5: a part of me that needs to make music. That's 316 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 5: just the part of who I am, and it was 317 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 5: just becoming really clear to me that that needed to happen. 318 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 5: So I was starting to look for what are some 319 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 5: ways that I can start putting some stuff out into 320 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 5: the world again and ideally doing that work and the 321 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 5: spirit of cooperation, you know, and finding other people who 322 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 5: shared my enthusiasm for the idea that doing the work 323 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 5: together and learning how to actually run things cooperatively without 324 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 5: you know, a management structure on top of it, siphoning 325 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 5: energy away from it. And so I found Ample on 326 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 5: the internet and saw what the proposition was. And part 327 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 5: of their structure at the time was that you could 328 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 5: actually become a co owner of the platform by being 329 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 5: an artist that was using the platform, and once you 330 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 5: got to a certain number of supporters on the platform, 331 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 5: then you got to be well. The governance rights involved 332 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 5: being able to a third of the board members. It 333 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 5: was a nine person board with three artists representatives could 334 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 5: run for the board, and there was also sort of 335 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 5: an extra space and their discord that was sort of 336 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 5: artist owner, you know, only kind of space to connect 337 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 5: around that, and so Yeah, once I got the number 338 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 5: of people following my project, this was in twenty twenty two, 339 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 5: got an email saying, congratulations, you're an artist owner, and 340 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 5: at the same time realized that the party was kind 341 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 5: of over. 342 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 3: I had when I. 343 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 5: Arrived into the space. I was like, Hey, everybody, what's up? 344 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 5: And it was just kind of crickets, you know. And 345 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 5: there were a couple of the workers who were working 346 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 5: on it at the time, who I'm pretty sure were 347 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 5: still volunteering their time, who had had some conversations with 348 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 5: and gotten to know a little bit, but it was 349 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 5: sort of a ghost ship by that point. And it 350 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 5: turns out I was the last artist owner to join. 351 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 3: No yeah dubs distinction exact. 352 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 5: The platform wound down entirely at the end of twenty 353 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 5: twenty three, and so, yeah, it was maybe a few 354 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 5: months after I had joined and started using it. I 355 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 5: kind of had a monthly flow where I would do something, 356 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 5: send an update, write something about what I was working on, 357 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 5: records and trombone sounds, you know, linked to something else 358 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 5: that was on the internet, you know. 359 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 3: And so after a few months of. 360 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,479 Speaker 5: Doing that, Yeah, I got an email saying we're winding down, sorry, 361 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 5: and that was kind of that. But by that point 362 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 5: I had met SI and we were both kind of 363 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 5: starting to compare notes about these respective projects that had 364 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 5: similar goals, similar ideals, similar interest in you know, cooperating 365 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 5: and realizing that neither of them was, you know, was 366 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 5: going to be a place where we could continue the 367 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,959 Speaker 5: work that we wanted to do, and so we started 368 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 5: talking about, well, what if we were going to start 369 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 5: from scratch, what would. 370 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 3: That look like? 371 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 5: And so I brought some other friends he'd been working 372 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 5: with their resonate and these conversations we've just started as 373 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 5: conversations like similar to the one we're having right now, 374 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 5: where we're starting to kind of develop an analysis together 375 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 5: about what was going on in the music industry what 376 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 5: might be able to be done differently. And after a 377 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 5: few months, those conversations started turning into wait, yeah, we 378 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 5: could actually do some of this ourselves, And that was 379 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 5: when the idea of Mirla really started to hit the ground. 380 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, we will talk more about how all of it 381 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 2: sort of came together and what the structure looks like 382 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 2: and what it will look like after more of these ads. 383 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: We are back, So let's get into this sort of 384 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 2: meat of what Merlaw is, So can you talk about 385 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 2: what is sort of different about mirlow than the other 386 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 2: sort of platforms in the market. How is the optive 387 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: structure work. 388 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, so, when we were looking at ways to actually 389 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 4: make a profitable business, which is unfortunately a thing that 390 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 4: you have to do if you want to or at 391 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 4: least a revenue making business, if you want to be 392 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 4: able to pay people, we were looking at other platforms 393 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 4: and spaces that exist out there that do actually make money. 394 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 4: So Patreon and band Camp have been profitable. Band Camp 395 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 4: for a long time actually posted their earnings as a report. 396 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 4: Then band Camp got sold, and then it got sold again, 397 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 4: and then band Camp laid off half of their staff, 398 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 4: including everyone who was part of the union organizing committee. 399 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 4: And we were already like, we already had a basically 400 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 4: a prototype at that point, but that was also a 401 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 4: moment where we realized was like, oh, we gotta go, 402 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 4: we gotta pressco on this thing. And so what we have, 403 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 4: what the product is right now is basically it is 404 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 4: i would say, a lightweight clone of Bandcamp. It doesn't 405 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 4: have all the functionality with the added features of more 406 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 4: Patreon stall subscription based things, so musicians can go onto 407 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 4: mirr low, they upload their albums. They can sell their 408 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 4: albums as digital copies for whatever they want, for free 409 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 4: or for money, and then they can also set subscription 410 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 4: tiers use it as a mailing list basically to send 411 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 4: out updates. Two subscribers have specific tiers that receive specific content. 412 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 4: For example, you could have a tier that if someone subscribes, 413 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 4: they automatically get a new release that you put on 414 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 4: the platform. And yeah, that's basically the product. It allows 415 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 4: music playing, but it's not a streaming service. You can't 416 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 4: make playlists, it doesn't do infinite streaming. The plays are 417 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 4: basically promotional plays. So we've had two undred and fifty artists, 418 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 4: which includes some people who work under several names, but 419 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 4: so two hundred and fifty entities artists who have uploaded 420 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 4: five hundred albums to Erolo, which I don't know, I 421 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 4: haven't done the math on what that is like listening 422 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 4: time wise, but it's probably already more music that I 423 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 4: could consume, and we have people buying music. It's really exciting, 424 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 4: you know, Like it's not we're not we're not making 425 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 4: enough money to bankroll anything, but it's exciting that I 426 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 4: think we've got about four hundred dollars moving through the 427 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 4: platform every month at this point, so that's that's really cool. 428 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 4: We need more obviously, but that goes a long way 429 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 4: to you know, I guess confirming the ideas that we've 430 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 4: had so far. And there was a second part. 431 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 2: Of that question, Yeah, how does the sort of cooperative 432 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 2: structure work now? And then we could move on to 433 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 2: what is it going to look like when the platform 434 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 2: is sort of more developed, more mature. 435 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can that a little bit. So we also, 436 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 3: in our thinking about this, took a lot of lessons 437 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 3: from our experiences in Ample and Resonate, also the other 438 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 3: experiences I've had in you know, cooperative organizing structures. And 439 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 3: one of the things that we wanted to make sure 440 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 3: we did was we had kind of a phase one 441 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 3: and then during that phase one also kind of figure 442 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 3: out the vision for what we want to see moving 443 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,719 Speaker 3: forward and how we can grow into something that's more 444 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 3: like what we ultimately want. In other words, we didn't 445 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 3: want to put the car before the horse was saying like. 446 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 5: Okay, let's draw out like this really spiffy multi stakeholder 447 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 5: cooperative thing where the artists have these things and the 448 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 5: you know, listeners have these things and the coders have 449 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 5: you know, you know, for starters. We just figured out 450 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 5: who among us is like ready to our government name 451 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 5: to be some paper and you know, open an LLC, 452 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 5: and that ended up being three of us who are 453 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 5: based in the United States, MEISI and one other working 454 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 5: on our Jodie, and then from there the three of 455 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 5: us were kind of the poor team that is going 456 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 5: to build things out from here. 457 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 3: So we're still very early stages. 458 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 2: You know. 459 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 5: The soft launch and the platform was the beginning of 460 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 5: this year, just a couple of months ago. We incorporated 461 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 5: last year in November, so all of this is totally 462 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 5: brand new, and you know, we're figuring out as we go. 463 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 5: But the idea with the current group is that we 464 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 5: start to practice a culture of decision making by consent. 465 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 5: And that's this idea that particularly anything high level about 466 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 5: you know, what the business is or how it runs, 467 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 5: is consented to by everybody in the group. And so 468 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 5: if there's anything that any of us are a no to, 469 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 5: you know, we're like, hold up, this isn't going to 470 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 5: work for me. That actually is the way that we 471 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 5: steer the ship forward. So that's been something that we've 472 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 5: been working on building together. We're working with a legal 473 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 5: team to codify this into a sort of worker cooperative 474 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 5: style LLC operating agreement. 475 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 3: You know, we're members of the US Federation of Worker Cooperatives. 476 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 5: We've been kind of learning from the ecosystemative ways that 477 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 5: worker cooperative policies and procedures can be built into the 478 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 5: nucleus of this at the beginning. And also, the three 479 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 5: of us each come from different places, and so we 480 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 5: each bring really different perspectives to where things need to go. 481 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 5: And so that's also been a part of you know, 482 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 5: where we're starting from is if we can get enough 483 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 5: unique perspectives into the space, build the core practice this 484 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 5: culture of consent where even a minority of no is 485 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 5: a no for the whole group, and start to build 486 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 5: that in, then that is kind of the seed for 487 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:57,360 Speaker 5: where things go from here. 488 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 2: In terms of where things go from here, one of 489 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 2: the things that you talk about a lot is the 490 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 2: exit to community, And yeah, I wanted to ask, can 491 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 2: you explain what that is and what it sort of 492 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 2: means for what this platform is going to be going forward. 493 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, So this idea of exit to community comes from 494 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 5: conversations that have been happening in the solid area economy 495 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 5: world about what would it look like to support essentially 496 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 5: startup businesses right that the founders are aiming for a 497 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 5: different kind of exit than how we traditionally think about, 498 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,479 Speaker 5: you know, startup businesses that are aiming for an exit 499 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 5: to either get bought by a bigger company or get 500 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 5: listed publicly on a stock market and become essentially instruments 501 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 5: of financial speculation. And that's really the only kind of 502 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 5: pathway out. We even saw this with band Camp, that 503 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 5: you know, this company that was internally profitable and doing 504 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,479 Speaker 5: things the way that regular old business is supposed to operate, 505 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 5: you know, and releasing their financials every year and you know. 506 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 3: Really doing it by the book, so to speak. 507 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 5: There that the endpoint, you know, ten ish years down 508 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 5: the road was getting bought by a bigger company because 509 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 5: what they had built was valuable to Epic Games. And 510 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 5: you know, there's been speculation about why Epic bought band Camp, 511 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 5: but you know, whatever the reason was, it wasn't because 512 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 5: they were taking all the boxes as a profitable business, 513 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 5: every step with the way. That might have been part 514 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 5: of it, but the idea was that band Camp had 515 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 5: become something more valuable and that they could cash out. 516 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 5: You know, I think it was two hundred and eighty 517 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 5: something million dollars, which is a big chunk of change, 518 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 5: and that, you know, the decision to cash out was 519 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 5: made by the founder. There was likely other people who 520 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 5: had input into the decision, but there was certainly wasn't 521 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 5: you know, a team that was you know, having a 522 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 5: deliberation and making a. 523 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 3: Consent based decision about how to do that. It was 524 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 3: one guy and he signed the paperwork and that was it. 525 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 5: So the idea of Exit to the community is it's 526 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 5: essentially been an invitation to explore alternatives, alternatives that are 527 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 5: more in alignment with building the world that we're actually 528 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 5: trying to see. So for us, that means, you know, 529 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 5: first of all, creating something that is financially viable, you know, 530 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 5: that can actually support the work that it takes to 531 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 5: both maintain the platform and maintain accountability to the people 532 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 5: who are using platform, particularly the musicians, so that those 533 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 5: relationships need to get built. There needs to be enough 534 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 5: trust in order to feel like this is actually a 535 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 5: thing worth continuing to do together. And then there's also 536 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 5: the work of having it be essentially used enough that 537 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 5: the math works out that the work that it takes 538 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 5: to sustain the platform can be supported, and the work 539 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 5: that it takes to make music can be supported, because ultimately, 540 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 5: this is a platform that is trying to move money 541 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 5: into musicians' pockets. So if we can pull that off, 542 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 5: then the next step is the exit to community step, 543 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 5: which the way I see it, would be essentially co 544 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 5: designing a set of agreements about how the system will 545 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 5: continue to be tended to moving forward in ways that 546 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 5: are directly accountable to the people who are involved in 547 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 5: making it go themselves. 548 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 2: Right. 549 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 3: So in this case, you know, we see. 550 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 5: The community as kind of broadly comprised of three different groups, 551 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 5: not like groups of people that all hang out together 552 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 5: and do stuff together, but like there's kind of three 553 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 5: kinds of contributions that are getting made. 554 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 3: One is the people who are working on developing the software. 555 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 5: This is an open source software project, so there's been 556 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 5: a lot of inputs from a lot of different people. 557 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 5: Of that, of course, the work of maintaining an open 558 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 5: source software project requires resourcing, but that's one of the groups. 559 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 5: Another group is the musicians, the people who are you 560 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 5: making stuff that they put on the platform. And another 561 00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 5: is the people who are listening and the people who 562 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 5: we're supporting with you know, with patronage, with money, right, 563 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 5: and and some people might be in all three of 564 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 5: those categories, you know, So it's not like there's your 565 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 5: one or the other, but those three things all have 566 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 5: really important and important stake in the sustainability of the 567 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 5: overall operations. So the exit to community step would be 568 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 5: essentially designing standards, protocols, agreements, whatever you want to call 569 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 5: it for how we do this work moving. 570 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 3: Forward, and then we can get out of the way 571 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 3: if we want, you know. So that's the other part 572 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 3: of it. 573 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 5: The other part of it, too, of an exit is 574 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 5: how do you make sure that the founders are whole, 575 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 5: you know, so that it's not like we've put all 576 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 5: this work into making something possible and then it's working 577 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 5: and then everyone's like, oh, yeah, screw you, get out 578 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 5: of here. We're ready to take this on our os 579 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 5: and we're hoping that doesn't happen either. So figuring out 580 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 5: that is also a part of the's what's before us. 581 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 5: My aspiration and my vision for this is that culture 582 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 5: of consent that we're baking into the worker stage of 583 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 5: this right now. Can be something that continues to be 584 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 5: a core aspect of how we move forward. In other words, 585 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 5: once we really see who all the stakeholders are, let's 586 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 5: come up with a creative way to figure out how 587 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 5: this is going to work that everybody can consent to them. 588 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 2: I think that's a good place of transition to the 589 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 2: last thing I wanted to ask, which is, you know, 590 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 2: you've both came from projects that kind of fizzled, and 591 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 2: this is the thing that happens a lot of time 592 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 2: with projects like this, So what is the sort of 593 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: plan to make sure that this is not like the 594 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 2: next in a pile of of people who tried to 595 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 2: do this that did work. 596 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 4: We've been having a lot of conversations around that because 597 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 4: there have been like public reflections happening about the final 598 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 4: years of ampled, so that there's some reflections around those 599 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 4: things that you can find those on the internet. Well, 600 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 4: so the things I'm thinking about is you really have 601 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 4: to think about what it means to be successful. And 602 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 4: it's possible to claim that success is you know, we 603 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 4: go toe to toe with band camp or Patreon and 604 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 4: we beat them at the game of being a VC 605 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 4: funded startup, but we do it with volunteer and you know, 606 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 4: grassroots money support. And I guess that is a way 607 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 4: of thinking of success. It's not my personal way of 608 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 4: thinking of success. So a way of thinking of success 609 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 4: for me is more, you know, what's the end result? 610 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 4: What are we hoping to do? What are we hoping 611 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 4: to prefigure? Is it a more resilient community of people 612 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 4: who are willing to go into a next step together? 613 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 4: And in that way, I feel like you could say 614 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 4: that Resonate and Ampled they fizzled, but they both created 615 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 4: spaces where people found each other and try to do 616 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 4: the next thing. And I feel like that is very 617 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 4: much the project of organizing prior to global socialism or whatever. 618 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 4: Is looking at what we did and learning from it 619 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 4: and moving forward and trying again because we have to 620 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 4: try again. And I feel like that is kind of 621 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 4: the big picture question. We have some stuff in place 622 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 4: that we're doing to make our project a bit more resilient. 623 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 4: The consent stuff is part of that that Alex just described. 624 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 4: Other parts of that is that we from the get 625 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 4: go decided to do things publicly and bring in people 626 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 4: as quickly as possible. I was the original programmer for 627 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 4: the platform, but in the past month, I have been 628 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 4: the honestly one of the smallest contributors to the platform. 629 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 4: We've just had people stepping up in really incredible ways. 630 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 4: Truly appreciate it. We've had people stepping in during this campaign. 631 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 4: They've been making videos, they've been making art. Yeah, just 632 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 4: the way that the community is stepping in and like 633 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 4: wanting to be a success, I think is this great 634 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 4: example of what it is we can achieve if we 635 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 4: if we're willing to, you know, let people into the 636 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 4: process of doing that. There are a lot of questions 637 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 4: there about who and what is doing that supporting, so 638 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 4: that is something that we're constantly checking in on. And 639 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 4: I think also a metric of success is who is 640 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 4: interacting with the platform. Especially at Resonate, they did a 641 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 4: really good job of bringing in the folks from Black 642 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 4: Socialists of America were involved. There were people who had 643 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 4: experience of cooperation Jackson who were involved. They did a 644 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 4: really good job of diversifying the crowd of people who 645 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 4: were not the standard I don't know, like open source 646 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 4: tech people, which is a very white, you know, susset 647 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:04,479 Speaker 4: mail situation, and we we're trying to take from those 648 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 4: and learn from those and thinking about what spaces we 649 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 4: present ourselves in, like very intentional outreach to people to 650 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 4: open up through cultural work, through conversations that are very 651 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,399 Speaker 4: local focused, to create space where we're talking about these things. 652 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think for me, the idea of success 653 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 5: too has to do with our needs getting met, you know, 654 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 5: because Spotify is not meeting people's needs. Sorry, it's just 655 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 5: I mean, I guess it's meeting some people's needs, not 656 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 5: meeting very many people. 657 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean they just fired like not literally 658 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 2: their entire podcasting division, but an unbelievably large number of 659 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 2: extremely talented people got fired. Oh really and it yeah, 660 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 2: it really sucks. 661 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 3: That's really interesting. 662 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, not operating on the same scale that 663 00:36:55,360 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 5: Spotify is actually making it work matters, you know. And 664 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 5: my hope is that, first of all, that individual artists 665 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 5: start to see this as a place that you know, 666 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 5: they can kind of get their crew around them, and 667 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,240 Speaker 5: that this can be a really a nice reliable source 668 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 5: of additional income in their careers, help them pay rent. 669 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 5: Like when I was on Ampled, you know, I was 670 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 5: bringing in like one hundred dollars a month or something 671 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 5: like that, which isn't that much because I was doing 672 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 5: it on a very small scale, but it made a 673 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,439 Speaker 5: big difference in my everyday life in terms of making 674 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 5: space to make music a part of it. And I 675 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 5: know how I lean into that a little bit more. 676 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 5: There could be you know, a significant chunk of change 677 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 5: coming through something like this to support just the ongoing 678 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 5: paying rent while making art, which is the thing. 679 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 4: On that note, another thing that I think is worth 680 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 4: celebrating is that in the end Ample basically made two 681 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 4: hundred and fifty thousand dollars available to musicians and did 682 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 4: do what it was trying to do in a successful way. 683 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 5: This is the other thing that I want to aspire 684 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 5: to or you know, define sex us as is our 685 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 5: local scenes starting to work mirror low into the way 686 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 5: that they operate. You know, can this be something that 687 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 5: small independent labels, artists, collectives, niche genres in different places, 688 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 5: you know, DIY spaces, whatever, that this can actually be 689 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 5: a useful tool to make the local space go and 690 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 5: to make it easier for musicians to do what they 691 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 5: do in community in real life, you know, at the 692 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 5: level of local. And we'll see how it goes. We're 693 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 5: just getting started, but I'm really optimistic and looking forward 694 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 5: to continuing to pour energy into that. 695 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 696 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 2: So where can people go to find the platform and 697 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 2: support it if they're interested or get involved. 698 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, so we're at Mirrlow dot space. That's the website. 699 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 5: If you go to mirlow dot space, you'll see at 700 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 5: the very top right now, just for a a couple 701 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 5: more days, we've got a kickstarter going to kind of 702 00:38:58,360 --> 00:38:59,879 Speaker 5: keep the lights on for the rest of the year. 703 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,479 Speaker 5: Would be tremendously grateful for any support from anyone who's 704 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 5: listening today to get us. It's where I need to 705 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 5: get over there, and also at the front page, and 706 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 5: if you scroll down to the bottom, there's links to 707 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 5: email us, find us on GitHub, find our discord. 708 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 3: There's plenty of ways to plug in and connect. Yeah. 709 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, So hoping this all works for the best, and 710 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 2: hoping that there's a way for artists to create music 711 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 2: in ways that are sustainable and not unbelievably exploitative. 712 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks so much for having us, man, it's been 713 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 3: truly a pleasure. Yeah, thank you so much. 714 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 2: Maybe so, yeah, yeah, and this has been it could 715 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,800 Speaker 2: happen here and find us in the usual places. Yeah, go, 716 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 2: I don't know, go make trouble for the people who 717 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 2: have what USA. 718 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,760 Speaker 1: It could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 719 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 720 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the 721 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 722 00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,919 Speaker 1: You can find sources for it Could Happen Here update 723 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: and monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.