Speaker 1: It's part of the preparation for having radical listening conversations
Speaker 1: is how do we find what it is we need
Speaker 1: even prior to engaging with others. So there's something about
Speaker 1: meeting our own needs. I see links to mindful practices
Speaker 1: and just looking after our own well being. So there's
Speaker 1: something about making sure our own needs are met so
Speaker 1: that we can be fully present for others.
Speaker 2: Today we have Robert Biswasteiner and Christian Vannuerberg on the
Speaker 2: Psychology Podcast. Together they are authors of the new book
Speaker 2: Radical Listening, The Art of True Connection. Robert and Christian
Speaker 2: are pioneers in the field of positive psychology coaching, and
Speaker 2: they bring their extensive knowledge base into this episode and
Speaker 2: into their new book. In this episode, we discussed the
Speaker 2: power of true listening, teaching listeners how to actively co
Speaker 2: create meaning and connection with anyone. They present their framework
Speaker 2: for radical listening, which includes the art and science of noticing, quieting, accepting, acknowledging, questioning,
Speaker 2: and interjecting. I really enjoyed this conversation with two people
Speaker 2: who I hugely respect. In fact, I consider both of
Speaker 2: them important mentors of mine in the coaching profession. What
Speaker 2: the world needs right now is more true listening, so
Speaker 2: I was glad to speak with them. So now I
Speaker 2: bring you Robert Biswasteiner and Christian van Nuerberg. Robert and Christian.
Speaker 2: Woww welcome to the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
Speaker 3: What a great welcome.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's been a long time, a long time
Speaker 2: in the making, so I'm glad we're finally able to
Speaker 2: do this. And congratulations on your new book, Radical Listening
Speaker 2: The Art of True Connection. How did this book idea
Speaker 2: come about?
Speaker 3: Christian?
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks so much. I'm so excited to be here
Speaker 1: with Scott Barry Kauf. And one of the things I
Speaker 1: was just thinking about is we all have these names
Speaker 1: that have three initials, SBK, CVN, RBD, So delighted to
Speaker 1: be here.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons this book came about, as Scott,
Speaker 1: is because Robert and I have wanted to work together
Speaker 1: on a project right before well actually during the pandemic,
Speaker 1: we found that we weren't meeting up as we were
Speaker 1: regularly at conferences and things, and we were looking for
Speaker 1: some kind of joint project and we started doing some
Speaker 1: online training and out of that we started gathering insights
Speaker 1: about listening and it was one of those projects where
Speaker 1: I thought, maybe there's an opportunity here to work and
Speaker 1: learn from Robert.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. It's a really unusual approach to writing a book,
Speaker 3: and that I think that mostly people have like a
Speaker 3: burning desire to write about their topic.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: Oh, I've been read Searching well Being for twenty years,
Speaker 3: so it makes sense that I would write a book
Speaker 3: about it. And that was not the case here. We
Speaker 3: didn't sort of feel pregnant with this idea. We were
Speaker 3: just talking about interactional styles, conversation, acknowledging people, politeness, are
Speaker 3: just everything about communication, and it's sort of emerged out
Speaker 3: of that and it took us by surprise.
Speaker 2: Oh I love that. Well, before we double click on
Speaker 2: all the things that took you guys by surprise, let's
Speaker 2: back up a second and can you to introduce yourselves
Speaker 2: to our audience a little bit. Robert, can you start
Speaker 2: with you and we'll go then and go to Christian.
Speaker 2: Just talk a little about who you are.
Speaker 3: Sure it's great, Hi everyone, Thanks for spending your time
Speaker 3: with us. I am Robert Biswasteiner. I am a well
Speaker 3: being researcher. I've been studying happiness for about twenty five years.
Speaker 3: And I'm not just interested in understanding psychological phenomenon but
Speaker 3: also intervening in them to help people live better lives.
Speaker 3: So I am a coach, a coach, trainer, and interventionist,
Speaker 3: and an occasional author as well.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Scott, and I'm so delighted to be
Speaker 1: here on this show and sharing these moments with you.
Speaker 1: I'm Christian van Nuberg. I'm an academic and author and
Speaker 1: executive coach, and I think the thing that's been driving
Speaker 1: me is real curiosity. Scott. I've just been curious right
Speaker 1: from the outset, and my curiosity has always been in
Speaker 1: relation to coaching. What is the intervention? What is the
Speaker 1: thing in coaching that's really having these transformational impacts? And
Speaker 1: I've been so curious, is it the coach, is it
Speaker 1: the intervention? And if it's the intervention, what is that intervention?
Speaker 1: And the radical listening probably emerged from that where I
Speaker 1: was thinking, you know, in coaching and other empowering conversations
Speaker 1: like this, the thing that's really making the difference is
Speaker 1: the quality of our listening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks Christian. Both of you two are two of
Speaker 2: my favorite coaches in the world. Just so you know,
Speaker 2: Robert MS Wasdener. I did a big book of my
Speaker 2: coaching training with Robert, and Robert, you are, I guess,
Speaker 2: the founder of positive psychology coaching. Would you say you're
Speaker 2: one of the founders of that field, of the entire field.
Speaker 2: Each I talked a little bit about what is positive
Speaker 2: psychology coaching.
Speaker 3: I would definitely say I'm among the pioneers. I don't
Speaker 3: know if I would take full credit for lifting the
Speaker 3: entire field. But positive psychology coaching is essentially an approach
Speaker 3: to coaching. So coaching is working with people to make
Speaker 3: positive change in their lives, to engage them and self
Speaker 3: directive learning, and hopefully through these insights they can create
Speaker 3: better plans, hold themselves accountable for behavior change. And it's
Speaker 3: just a form of coaching that is influenced by positive
Speaker 3: psychological science. So we use our knowledge of well being, research, strengths, optimism,
Speaker 3: motivation to guide the kinds of supportive conversations that we have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and listening and presences is part and parcel of
Speaker 2: being a good coach, no matter what the coaching orientation.
Speaker 3: Right absolutely In fact, if you think, and this goes
Speaker 3: beyond coaching, but if you think, what would a good
Speaker 3: therapist be what would a good coach be. You'd probably
Speaker 3: think that they would have a certain way of being.
Speaker 3: They might be empathic, for example, or they might be
Speaker 3: curious something that Christian mentioned before. Any of those things
Speaker 3: that you think someone should show up with, curiosity, confidence, assertiveness, compassion, respect,
Speaker 3: those are going to be positive psychology topics. That is,
Speaker 3: positive psychology is going to have researched them and given
Speaker 3: us some insights into them. Another way of saying that
Speaker 3: is to show up fully in a conversation in the
Speaker 3: most positive way. Is itself people at their best?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And what if you want to show up in
Speaker 2: a positive way and you also are having a debate
Speaker 2: with someone. Let's say you're showing up and this is
Speaker 2: the outside of coaching context for a second, But just
Speaker 2: like if you're having a conversation with an uncle who
Speaker 2: was a very different political view from you, how can
Speaker 2: you still show up in a positive way and still
Speaker 2: be assertive in your own value system?
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Scott. That's a great question and it
Speaker 1: is something that we tackle in the book Radical Listening.
Speaker 1: One of the ways we do that is think about
Speaker 1: what are the barriers to listening. And one of the
Speaker 1: barriers to listening, of course, is wanting to prove that
Speaker 1: we're right. So I think when we have we meet
Speaker 1: with people from with different perspectives and different views. One
Speaker 1: of the ideas in our book is really to be
Speaker 1: intentional about the type of listening that we're going to do,
Speaker 1: and if the purpose is to build connection. If our
Speaker 1: intention is to build connection, that will help us to
Speaker 1: think about what are the best ways of listening. So
Speaker 1: I think I'm really intrigued about those situations when there's
Speaker 1: so many barriers who are listening, but it's really important
Speaker 1: to maintain a relationship. And that's when I think some
Speaker 1: of the ideas in our book Radical Listening play a part.
Speaker 1: I think Christian just said something really important, which is
Speaker 1: if your intention is connection, and so often that's not
Speaker 1: our intention. And so I think one of the core
Speaker 1: ideas is that when we listen, we listen with intention,
Speaker 1: and that there are so many intentions.
Speaker 3: So sometimes our intention is to convince someone else that
Speaker 3: we're right. Sometimes the intention is to validate the other person.
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's to connect with the other person. But it
Speaker 3: makes a big difference what your intention is because that
Speaker 3: will guide everything downstream. It will guide what you pay
Speaker 3: attention to, how you pay attention, how you respond to
Speaker 3: what the other person is saying. So with your uncle
Speaker 3: and mine, Scott, and I don't know if it was
Speaker 3: your uncle or just someone's uncle who has different.
Speaker 2: So everyone has that uncle.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, if what you're trying to do is
Speaker 3: say wow, you know what, I'd really like to learn
Speaker 3: about how they arrive. It's such a different stance than
Speaker 3: the one I have. That's going to kind of lead
Speaker 3: you to interface in a different way than I'm listening
Speaker 3: to just reinforce my idea that this guy's in Chirk,
Speaker 3: or I'm listening to just re butt everything he says
Speaker 3: and tear it down with my own arguments. Those will
Speaker 3: just be very different conversations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good point. And it just seems
Speaker 2: like our cultural climate right now is not one of listening.
Speaker 2: It feels like listening is a radical act in and
Speaker 2: of itself. Not that you're talking about radical listening, but
Speaker 2: I think listening can be radical just in certain contexts.
Speaker 2: But you do use the phrase radical listening. Can you
Speaker 2: just explain a little about like the what is the
Speaker 2: construct radical listening? How's it different from just normal every
Speaker 2: day listening? Centrist listening. How does centrist listening different from
Speaker 2: radical listening?
Speaker 3: Christian?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So we we've called this radical listening for a
Speaker 1: number of reasons. One is the one you just talked
Speaker 1: about that highlighting the fact that listening itself can be
Speaker 1: an intervention and it's not a solution to everything. But
Speaker 1: we see that listening can be used as the starting
Speaker 1: point for creating dialogue. So the idea of listening as
Speaker 1: a way of building connection, we think that's kind of
Speaker 1: a radical idea. The other aspects of what makes it
Speaker 1: radical is that we move beyond you know, active listening. Scott,
Speaker 1: this idea that really active listening to us sounds that
Speaker 1: it's almost reactive listening. You know, it's lots of strategies
Speaker 1: to look like we're listening, where with radical listening we
Speaker 1: want to be equal partners in the conversation. We see
Speaker 1: radical listening as proactive, so, for example, the thinking of
Speaker 1: our intention even before we go into a conversation, so
Speaker 1: that you're going in with almost a plan of I
Speaker 1: want to listen with this in mind. And the other
Speaker 1: radical part is we suggest that we suggest interrupting. We
Speaker 1: talk about interjections and asking questions. So this is a
Speaker 1: form of listening, where as the listener, you are a
Speaker 1: full participant. You're fully present, you're fully engaged, You're in there,
Speaker 1: not just like a sponge taking in information, which is
Speaker 1: sometimes how we think about listening, but really being an
Speaker 1: active participant. So that's why we call it radical listening.
Speaker 1: We keep going back to the idea that there are
Speaker 1: different intentions for listening, and I think that that hopefully
Speaker 1: feels fresh to people because listening is so often construed
Speaker 1: as sponging up or just taking in or just hearing.
Speaker 1: But if you sort of prepare yourself to say I'm
Speaker 1: listening in order to validate my friend, well realize that
Speaker 1: that's going to that's going to guide your attention. So
Speaker 1: when you listen to validate someone, you're paying more attention
Speaker 1: and placing greater weight on emotional expression, on posture, on words.
Speaker 1: Whereas if you're listening to solve a problem, you're probably
Speaker 1: listening for procedures, key components, things like that. If you're
Speaker 1: listening to connect with someone, you might be listening for
Speaker 1: shared interests or experiences or hobbies, things like that. So
Speaker 1: knowing your intention right up front, it directs your attention
Speaker 1: like a spotlight. So intention intention leads to attention, and
Speaker 1: you think you're just paying attention to everything, but you're not.
Speaker 1: You're just taking a specific slice out depending on what
Speaker 1: you're trying to accomplish.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so well put. And I see so many
Speaker 2: linkages here between as particularly your section part one on
Speaker 2: internal listening skills you have noticing, quiet, and accepting. I
Speaker 2: noticed so many similarities between those chapters and Carl Rodgers'
Speaker 2: notion of active listening. And he has a little kind
Speaker 2: of like a forty page book which I have somewhere
Speaker 2: in my bookshelf called active Listening, which there's so much
Speaker 2: packed into forty pages that I've never seen so much
Speaker 2: packed into. But I really, I really see a lot
Speaker 2: of similarities between unconditional positive regard that notion and these
Speaker 2: three skills. Do you see the similaries as.
Speaker 1: Well, Yes, exactly, Scott, and I know that this is
Speaker 1: an area of great interest for you as well. And
Speaker 1: one of the things Robert and I have been talking
Speaker 1: about when working on this book is how Carl Rogers
Speaker 1: and his work has not been given the credit it deserves.
Speaker 1: So absolutely, a lot of the necessary and sufficient conditions.
Speaker 1: For example, that Carl Rogers talks about, which is about
Speaker 1: creating the ideal environments for other people to do their
Speaker 1: best thinking. So I think radical listening is also about
Speaker 1: thinking about what is the environment that's most conducive to
Speaker 1: the person we're listening to to do their best thinking.
Speaker 1: And that's where the skill of quieting, for example, comes in.
Speaker 1: And of course it's the quiet in terms of trying
Speaker 1: to prevent distractions and noise from interfering, but we also
Speaker 1: think about how the listener needs to be able to
Speaker 1: quiet what's going on internally for them as well to
Speaker 1: create the space where we're really present for the other person.
Speaker 1: And you know, we all experience this in the busyness
Speaker 1: of today. Being listened to can feel beautiful, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think what's exciting about the idea of radical
Speaker 1: listening is it's not a formal thing. We don't have
Speaker 1: to set aside ninety minutes for a radical listening conversation.
Speaker 1: It can happen in two or three minutes. It can
Speaker 1: be a ten minute. But as Robert was saying, the
Speaker 1: difference is the listener goes in with a clear intention upfront,
Speaker 1: and our argument is that if we match the listening
Speaker 1: to what it is the person is looking for. That's
Speaker 1: what starts to build that connection, and then of course
Speaker 1: we can build on that connection. It's almost like a
Speaker 1: gateway to dialogue. And you're right that the dialogue is
Speaker 1: something that you know, I think a lot of us
Speaker 1: are yearning for more opportunities for dialogue.
Speaker 2: Yes, it seems like the flow of radical listening, the
Speaker 2: kind of I would say of it resembles an improv
Speaker 2: yes end session. There's a lot of sort of yes
Speaker 2: ending going on. I feel like the opposite of radical
Speaker 2: listening has a different cadence to it. It's one where
Speaker 2: that's more it's not flowing. It's like no, no, no,
Speaker 2: you know, do you know what I mean? Am I
Speaker 2: making sense at all? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, there's a kind of a profound respect. I think
Speaker 3: that that's at the core of radical listening. And I
Speaker 3: like that Christian just said essentially, like, think about a
Speaker 3: time that you were listening to and what did that
Speaker 3: feel like? And often how rare an occurrence that can
Speaker 3: be because we're in this pretty time starved world. For me,
Speaker 3: one of the surprises that came about in writing this
Speaker 3: book was when we were talking to one another about
Speaker 3: how there are all these obstacles to listening. And I
Speaker 3: started thinking about all the times that people said to
Speaker 3: me things like, oh, Robert, I only have five minutes,
Speaker 3: walk with me, or come with me, come with me
Speaker 3: to my next meeting, because it's you know, only got
Speaker 3: two minutes. And kind of how bad that felt to
Speaker 3: me that they were kind of saying, my next meeting
Speaker 3: is more important than you, but I'll just kind of
Speaker 3: like wedge you in along the way. And I started
Speaker 3: thinking how much more powerful it would be if they said,
Speaker 3: I have a meeting in five minutes, but you can
Speaker 3: have my undivided attention for four of those and then
Speaker 3: I have to leave, And just how different that would feel,
Speaker 3: like you have everything from me for four minutes, and
Speaker 3: if that's not enough time, fine, we can schedule something.
Speaker 3: But if that is enough time, you've got me. And
Speaker 3: just having someone's undivided attention it is a gift. And
Speaker 3: going back to Carl Rogers, I think that's exactly what
Speaker 3: he was doing. Was so fully giving of himself and
Speaker 3: it had such a profound effect on his clients.
Speaker 2: Oh, I love that. Can we double click for a
Speaker 2: second on Quiet because I'm low key obsessed with this
Speaker 2: one and I think there's a whole I'm a real
Speaker 2: big fan of highlighting and spotlighting researchers and research that
Speaker 2: is not as well known in the general public. And
Speaker 2: I really want to give some props to Heidi Wayman
Speaker 2: and her incredible research program on the quiet ego, which
Speaker 2: just you know, a lot of people don't know about
Speaker 2: that research program, but I think it's really powerful. And
Speaker 2: I saw some linkages when I read your chapter on quiet,
Speaker 2: the importance of quiet and sort of and Heidi's research
Speaker 2: on the quiet ego of whorring. If you see some
Speaker 2: winkages there as well, you could talk about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And I think sometimes when you create these frameworks,
Speaker 3: you know, some of the boundaries are fuzzy. So we
Speaker 3: have this whole section on internal quiet, and then we
Speaker 3: have a whole section on accepting the other, and I
Speaker 3: think there's some bleed between those. You know that there's
Speaker 3: a little bit of overlap. And one of the things
Speaker 3: that I think is is sort of core to both
Speaker 3: of them is the idea of having some intellectual humility
Speaker 3: that is quieting your own ego. So if you don't
Speaker 3: have the main character energy, you think, I'm a supporting
Speaker 3: character in this conversation, at least while I'm in the
Speaker 3: role of listener, and I can recognize that even if
Speaker 3: my uncle disagrees with me politically, he has a right
Speaker 3: to his opinion. He has a wealth of life experience.
Speaker 3: He might not share my values, but he's an intelligent
Speaker 3: person who arrived at his own conclusions. That's a huge
Speaker 3: piece of mental gymnastics for most people. But if you
Speaker 3: believe that your own lived experience is valid, then the
Speaker 3: logical next step is that other people's lived experience is valid,
Speaker 3: even if it runs counter to yours. And so I
Speaker 3: think that there is sort of a challenge for all
Speaker 3: of us to adopt increasing amounts of intellectual humility and
Speaker 3: recognizing the limits of our own way of thinking and
Speaker 3: the potential validity of other people's way of thinking.
Speaker 1: Well, we talk about three different aspects of the skill
Speaker 1: of quiet. One is this inner quiet, and I actually
Speaker 1: love this idea Scott of inner quiet. It's part of
Speaker 1: the preparation for having radical listening conversations is how do
Speaker 1: we find what it is we need even prior to
Speaker 1: engaging with others. So there's something about meeting our own needs.
Speaker 1: And you know, I see links to mindful practices and
Speaker 1: just looking after our own wellbeing. So there's something about
Speaker 1: making sure our own needs are met so that we
Speaker 1: can be fully present for others. So this whole arena
Speaker 1: ofping that inner quiet. But inner quiet also involves becoming
Speaker 1: aware of our own self talk how is that helping us?
Speaker 1: What are different ways that we can think to ourselves
Speaker 1: so that what's going on in our own minds isn't
Speaker 1: getting in the way of our presence. So there's a
Speaker 1: lot about inner quiet and the quality of presence that
Speaker 1: we can provide. Now that's almost nowadays as we're saying
Speaker 1: a gift. If I'm able to provide my full and
Speaker 1: undivided attention, that feels like a gift, But that does
Speaker 1: require understanding my inner game if you like. Then there's
Speaker 1: conversational quiet, And for me, Scott, this is about firstly
Speaker 1: slowing things down a little bit, maybe even in the
Speaker 1: way we speak, And you were talking about cadence, to
Speaker 1: bring a kind of a calm to the conversation, and
Speaker 1: that includes increased use of silences, perhaps more pauses. And
Speaker 1: for me, there's a way of bringing that kind of
Speaker 1: conversational quiet that shows respect to the other person. I'm
Speaker 1: not rushing to jump in with something. I'm allowing for
Speaker 1: pauses between conversations. You know, in coaching, we would talk
Speaker 1: about this sense of spaciousness. I would love my conversational
Speaker 1: partner to feel they've got space to think and reflect
Speaker 1: and share ideas, that we're not hurried. So there's some
Speaker 1: kind of unhurried quality that comes with conversational quiet. And
Speaker 1: then environmental quite is the one that we most often
Speaker 1: think about, but that's just being thoughtful about. Is the
Speaker 1: environment we're in conducive to high quality conversations. But that
Speaker 1: might mean I turn off my phone, or I put
Speaker 1: my phone away, or if my watch is about to
Speaker 1: be you know, I think acts like that where I say,
Speaker 1: let me just put my phone away, or I look
Speaker 1: like I'm muting my watch or whatever, that gives an
Speaker 1: indication to our conversational partner that we care deeply about
Speaker 1: what it is they're going to say, and that we're
Speaker 1: trying to minimize the distractions that could be Even in
Speaker 1: we're sitting in a coffee shop and I might say,
Speaker 1: should we sit in that table over there it's a
Speaker 1: little bit quieter. I think these are all signals to
Speaker 1: the other person that we appreciate and value them. So
Speaker 1: you know talking to you is wonderful, Scott, because what's
Speaker 1: coming up for me now is that radical listening is
Speaker 1: one of the most respectful ways of communicat with others.
Speaker 2: It sure is. And and when you integrate all these
Speaker 2: things you're talking about quiet, noticing as you just talked
Speaker 2: about noticing a little bit. And then now I want
Speaker 2: to double click on accepting. When you integrate these three
Speaker 2: you get what emerges is a dynamic system of such
Speaker 2: a nerd. But it's it's really, it's really awesome, the
Speaker 2: accepting part. I think people get hung up so much
Speaker 2: when they hear Carl rodgers notion of unconditional positive regard.
Speaker 2: And this is the way I interpreted what he meant.
Speaker 2: And I would love to hear your thoughts and how
Speaker 2: you link it to your idea of accepting. Accepting doesn't
Speaker 2: mean liking. Carl Rodgers made it very clear that accepting
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you approve or that you don't want
Speaker 2: to change. But as he said, he has a great quote.
Speaker 2: He said, the curious paradox is that I can't change
Speaker 2: until I accept myself. That once I accept myself, then
Speaker 2: I can change that's his uh, really one of my
Speaker 2: favorite quotes of his. So it really is about just
Speaker 2: validating someone's experiences as real and as existing as it is,
Speaker 2: and that even just that process of validating that can
Speaker 2: lead to some extraordinary changes. And that's really the way
Speaker 2: I interpret Carl Rogers and the way I interpret you
Speaker 2: guys as well, when you use the word accepting. So
Speaker 2: tell me how I did there in trying to be
Speaker 2: a mirror to you, guys.
Speaker 3: I'm going to give you an A I thought you
Speaker 3: said great.
Speaker 2: Not an A plus only because I'm going to add
Speaker 2: to what you said.
Speaker 3: But I agree. I think that the stumbling block for
Speaker 3: most people is thinking that accepting equals agreeing with or liking,
Speaker 3: and it's not that. In thinking about accepting, I was wondering,
Speaker 3: what is it that we're accepting, And one of the
Speaker 3: things is what you just pointed to. Broadly speaking, I
Speaker 3: would say it's the person's perspective or point of view.
Speaker 3: So that could be their opinion, it could be their
Speaker 3: emotional state, kind of saying, I get that you have
Speaker 3: a right to think and feel the way you do,
Speaker 3: even if it's completely opposed to me. I can just
Speaker 3: accept the legitimacy that you have thoughts and feelings, but
Speaker 3: that's not the only thing we're accepting. In addition to that,
Speaker 3: we also accept situations. I accept the fact that you
Speaker 3: and I are having an argument. I accept the fact
Speaker 3: that there might not be a solution to this problem.
Speaker 3: I accept the fact that I might not be able
Speaker 3: to ultimately get what I want, or even to be
Speaker 3: able to influence an outcome. So some acceptance of situational factors.
Speaker 3: A third one is accepting our own personal limitations, and
Speaker 3: that's a bugaboo for many people just because it's difficult.
Speaker 3: We all want to think highly of ourselves. But just
Speaker 3: accepting that I can't see everything here or that I'm
Speaker 3: going to be biased in this process. And then I
Speaker 3: think the fourth is just accepting sort of pragmatism as
Speaker 3: opposed to a utopian vision. We all have this ideal
Speaker 3: deal or perfection in mind that what would what would be, uh,
Speaker 3: you know, the most awesome outcome possible, and then usually
Speaker 3: there's some compromises to be made. So just having having
Speaker 3: some accepting that that there's what works in addition to
Speaker 3: what's utopia and those those that's not a complete list,
Speaker 3: but I would say, those are four different types of
Speaker 3: things that you might be working to accept.
Speaker 2: Well, what great, I see why you didn't give me
Speaker 2: an a plus? There was there was a lot that
Speaker 2: was that was really rich and really really added a
Speaker 2: lot of the kind of nuance that I've been really
Speaker 2: yearning for in this world. And and uh and of
Speaker 2: course in the coaching profession. So you know, this book
Speaker 2: he wrote is not just about coaching. Obviously, this is
Speaker 2: for everyone. This book is for everyone. But I am
Speaker 2: really interested in coaching, and I was wondering if you
Speaker 2: have some you know, just specific techniques on applying these
Speaker 2: internal listening skills as a coach. You know what we
Speaker 2: do with a lot of coaches listening to this podcast.
Speaker 2: Do you have any advice for them on some very
Speaker 2: specific tangible ways of being in their coaching practice that
Speaker 2: allows them to kind of show demonstrate the integration of
Speaker 2: these three Not anyone in particular, but what does it
Speaker 2: look like when you have all three integrated in a
Speaker 2: coaching session?
Speaker 1: Well, Scott, first of all, I do want to give
Speaker 1: you an a plus for but it's for being a
Speaker 1: radical listener. And I'm going to digress for a moment,
Speaker 1: so I apologize but you are being a radical listener here,
Speaker 1: and I guess you have to be to have such
Speaker 1: a successful podcast. And it's when you said, look, I'm
Speaker 1: a bit of a nerd here. That's exactly. You seem
Speaker 1: to be hugely interested in what we've written about. And
Speaker 1: that's really at the heart of radical listening. I would
Speaker 1: add being interested and not looking interested or not sounding interested,
Speaker 1: but genuinely being interested. And when we talk about uncles,
Speaker 1: I think it's really being interested in them as a
Speaker 1: human being and bringing that curiosity and saying, I wonder
Speaker 1: you know where these ideas come from. Tell me more
Speaker 1: about how have you come to this view and being
Speaker 1: really curious about that, and then believing that that curiosity
Speaker 1: and that genuine interest in the other person builds that
Speaker 1: connection that we keep talking about as a bridge for
Speaker 1: them to be more open. Then for well, what's it
Speaker 1: like for the person who's listening to me and know, Scott,
Speaker 1: I grew up in a war zone. I grew up
Speaker 1: in Beirut during the Civil War where people were literally
Speaker 1: killing each other because of differences, right, So there would
Speaker 1: be checkpoints and military type checkpoints where they would look
Speaker 1: at your ID and if you were the wrong religion.
Speaker 1: They might take you out of the car and shoot you.
Speaker 1: That's what was going on. And I grew up in
Speaker 1: that environment where I think that's when I started realizing
Speaker 1: you have to listen well, even as a survival mechanism.
Speaker 1: You know, you have to be really alert and aware
Speaker 1: of what's going on. But fortunately in that country, in Lebanon,
Speaker 1: the civil war ended, and I do think that part
Speaker 1: of what allowed that to happen was some radical listening
Speaker 1: where people were able to try to understand how come
Speaker 1: you were, you know, shelling us from where you were
Speaker 1: living and our people were selling us from where we
Speaker 1: were living. That and when you think about all places
Speaker 1: where conflicts have somehow been resolved, I just feel that
Speaker 1: radical listening, that ability to say, look, I understand that
Speaker 1: you must have your reasons for what it is that happened,
Speaker 1: and I'm curious and I'm prepared to listen to that.
Speaker 1: So I just love this idea that listening is the
Speaker 1: starting point. And what I love is that this is
Speaker 1: something we can all do. And like you said, Scott,
Speaker 1: this is a book for anyone, and it's something we
Speaker 1: can start doing tomorrow or today. And sometimes I think
Speaker 1: it might have the greatest power with those closest to us.
Speaker 1: So that's just a little bit of an aside. But
Speaker 1: to come back to your question integrating these internal skills,
Speaker 1: what does it look like in coaching, Well, in coaching,
Speaker 1: it is what the International Coach Federation probably calls presence.
Speaker 1: When they talk about presence, it's that ability to listen
Speaker 1: in a non judgmental way. I would say, so that's
Speaker 1: your right scote to turn our attention to what does
Speaker 1: it feel like for the client perhaps if we're talking
Speaker 1: about coaching, and that might be a helpful way of
Speaker 1: moving away from competencies to say what's the impact we
Speaker 1: want to have? And I do think the impact is
Speaker 1: that the client feels seen, valued and heard.
Speaker 2: So that's a.
Speaker 1: Really important part of this. The other thing we want
Speaker 1: them to experience is that it's their time. We really
Speaker 1: want them to feel that this time is your time,
Speaker 1: it's your time to have a voice. And so we're
Speaker 1: listening in a way that encourages people to have a voice.
Speaker 1: We're listening in a way that shows that we're genuinely
Speaker 1: interested in them as human beings. We're listening in a
Speaker 1: way that makes them think what I have to say
Speaker 1: is important and all of that. For any of that
Speaker 1: to work, Scott, I would say it has to be genuine,
Speaker 1: So it's genuine interest, genuine care. And I don't normally
Speaker 1: like this word, Scott, but I'm going to use it anyway.
Speaker 1: You've made me feel safe. I'm going to use the
Speaker 1: word love here, but that feeling, oh oh, it's the
Speaker 1: four letter word. I've wrote it in already. But it's
Speaker 1: a sense of loving people as a human being. And
Speaker 1: even though you may have a different opinion, even though
Speaker 1: you may think things that I disagree with, I respect
Speaker 1: you as a human being and I respect your right
Speaker 1: to have those opinions. And you know, there's a risk
Speaker 1: we're going to get diverted into talking about unconditional positive
Speaker 1: regard again. But my view on that, Scott, and this
Speaker 1: is my nerdy topic as well, is that it's so
Speaker 1: important to recognize what a high bar that is. It's
Speaker 1: such a high bar to think about unconditional positive regard
Speaker 1: because so much regard that is in the world at
Speaker 1: the moment is conditional. But if we can aim for that,
Speaker 1: and I don't think I'd ever attain it, but I
Speaker 1: would go into conversations trying to have the lowest possible
Speaker 1: conditions to say, let me keep my conditions as low
Speaker 1: as possible so that that person feels value on her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's wonderful. I of course agree with all that.
Speaker 2: I keep my head keeps going back to what the
Speaker 2: mergent prop is of all these things you talk about,
Speaker 2: because it's not so clear cut to me what is
Speaker 2: internal and what is external, Because what is internal is
Speaker 2: external a lot of ways. If I'm sitting in front
Speaker 2: of someone and I hate this person as much as
Speaker 2: I want to fake it, it's going to come through.
Speaker 2: You talk a lot about genuineness. You didn't use the
Speaker 2: word genuin genuineness, but I think that's an understudy topic
Speaker 2: in the field of positive psychology. It's just hard. You know,
Speaker 2: the internal is the external. You know a lot of ways,
Speaker 2: like changing your internal state, you know. So for people
Speaker 2: who we found our own research, for instance, I'll give
Speaker 2: you this example, what the world am I talking about?
Speaker 2: We found that people who score low in self acceptance
Speaker 2: tend to be the most judging people on this planet.
Speaker 2: They don't accept anyone else. They are just the people
Speaker 2: that don't like themselves tend to not like anyone else.
Speaker 2: So we found when I was constructing my Characteristics of
Speaker 2: Self Actualization scale, I found the correlation and was so
Speaker 2: high between self acceptance and other acceptance that I had
Speaker 2: to collapse it as a single factor, which I just
Speaker 2: called acceptance because I couldn't distinguish between the two. So anyway,
Speaker 2: I just wanted to bring this up because you do
Speaker 2: have a section internal listing skills, externalisting skills. But I'm
Speaker 2: just trying to think of the interplay between all six
Speaker 2: of these things.
Speaker 3: It's a great, great question or way to delineate commentary.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I don't think we're suggesting that never the
Speaker 3: twain shall meet. I mean there's going to be some overlap.
Speaker 3: But when we think internal, right, and there are things
Speaker 3: like quieting yourself being, having an accepting attitude, we're juxtaposing
Speaker 3: that with the so called external that you can think
Speaker 3: of external the way we frame it as verbal. Then
Speaker 3: they're a little counterintuitive because they're aspects of listening that
Speaker 3: are actually talking. So interjecting, asking a question, acknowledging the
Speaker 3: other person and are all parts of listening. But weirdly
Speaker 3: you're speaking when you do it. So when we are
Speaker 3: talking about external, we are limiting ourselves specifically to instances
Speaker 3: in which the listener speaks as a form of listeners.
Speaker 1: And could I jump in Scott apologies, You've got me
Speaker 1: all excited about this idea and I'm one hundred percent
Speaker 1: with you about internal and external. And what I love
Speaker 1: about some of the simple ideas we share about radical
Speaker 1: listening is that underpinning that is the idea of working
Speaker 1: on oneself right. So I love the idea that in
Speaker 1: order to be accepting of others, one of the things
Speaker 1: we can be doing in the background is being more
Speaker 1: accepting of ourselves, and like compassion, being compassionate of others,
Speaker 1: I think the same applies. We need to apply self compassion.
Speaker 1: So there's a thing about in order to provide the
Speaker 1: kind of listening that you want to give to others,
Speaker 1: what do you need to do for yourself? You know?
Speaker 1: And the reason I've gotten excited about positive psychology because
Speaker 1: my route into this has been through coaching, you know,
Speaker 1: it was coaching psychology. And then the thing that was
Speaker 1: missing for me in coaching psychology is enough attention to
Speaker 1: well being. You know, what can we do so to
Speaker 1: look after the well being of ourselves and others? So
Speaker 1: I also love the idea that as we start to
Speaker 1: be more intentional about the way we listen to others,
Speaker 1: it might invite us to do that internal work that
Speaker 1: we're talking about. So, you know, if I hate somebody,
Speaker 1: it's very difficult to listen to them. But what can
Speaker 1: I do so that I don't hate them so that
Speaker 1: I you know, because I think you're right, if you're
Speaker 1: talking some do you hate that internal noise is definitely
Speaker 1: going to get in the way, and if we're genuine,
Speaker 1: it's going to seep out and people are going to
Speaker 1: notice it. But is there anything I can do to
Speaker 1: work on myself so that I have more compassion to
Speaker 1: other people? And so to give a practical thing here
Speaker 1: for our listeners. You know, a little mantra I have
Speaker 1: in my head is everybody is always in the middle
Speaker 1: of something. That's what I say to myself when I
Speaker 1: encounter I have an interaction where it's less than ideal.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I don't know what that person's going through
Speaker 1: right now, and I have to bring some compassion to it.
Speaker 1: But that would mean I need to be compassionate to
Speaker 1: myself as well.
Speaker 2: Oh boy, yeah, that's really good because you're recognizing that
Speaker 2: there's two aspects of that. There's one aspect of that
Speaker 2: is self compassion, saying, well, even if I slip up
Speaker 2: and I'm really not the best listener in this moment,
Speaker 2: I'm going to give myself some love because I have
Speaker 2: so much on my mind right Like, you can't always
Speaker 2: be a radical listener when you have fifty thousand things
Speaker 2: competing for your attention. So I feel like that's one
Speaker 2: part of it. And then I feel like the second
Speaker 2: part of that is having compassion for others who seem
Speaker 2: like they're not in the moment with you, and actually
Speaker 2: meeting them where they are. I think can be a
Speaker 2: great listening skill. Does that make sense? Not being like, oh,
Speaker 2: how dare they not be a radical listener, but actually
Speaker 2: meeting them. It is being like, hey, it looks like
Speaker 2: your mind is really elsewhere right now. Let me join
Speaker 2: you where you are. I feel it can be a
Speaker 2: radical listening skill.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I think Scott, that's a great way to put it,
Speaker 4: because the things we outline are easy to write and
Speaker 4: hard to do, and you know, I we're only.
Speaker 3: Being radical listeners us you everyone some fraction of the time.
Speaker 3: We're just trying to improve that overall quotient of better listening.
Speaker 3: But I do think that. I mean, I love this
Speaker 3: idea that everyone's in the middle of something, or just
Speaker 3: the forgiveness that comes with you know, you're busy right
Speaker 3: now or you can't focus right now, and that's not
Speaker 3: what I want, but I can meet you there. I
Speaker 3: can accept that that's the case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do love the idea of including ourselves in
Speaker 1: everybody's in the middle of something, including myself. And we
Speaker 1: were talking earlier about you know, listening and not listening
Speaker 1: and how it can feel not to be listened to.
Speaker 1: But I think there's a category even worse than not
Speaker 1: being listened to, and that's half listening. And what I
Speaker 1: mean by that is somebody says to us, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: kind of yeah listening to you tell me, but they're
Speaker 1: not really listening. And I'm going to be very open
Speaker 1: and honest. You know, I've been very curious about this,
Speaker 1: as I was saying, for many years, because I've been
Speaker 1: training people to be coaches and for over a decade,
Speaker 1: and there was a time when I was teaching something
Speaker 1: about listening and then my son came home from school
Speaker 1: and it had been a long day. I've been in
Speaker 1: the middle of stuff. I'd had emails that I didn't like,
Speaker 1: and my son comes in. I opened the door and
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, how is school today? But half listening
Speaker 1: because I'm thinking I need to get back to my emails.
Speaker 1: I've got other things going on. And I think he said, oh,
Speaker 1: I was playing a sport and I fell down and
Speaker 1: hurt myself. And I'm like, oh, good good, I'm glad
Speaker 1: you enjoyed it or something. And for that moment now,
Speaker 1: but in that moment, I thought, what am I doing?
Speaker 1: You know, this is one of the most important people
Speaker 1: in my life, if not the most important, and I
Speaker 1: know about this stuff, and here I am half listening.
Speaker 1: And the reason I don't like half listening, I think
Speaker 1: it's the worst is at least when somebody's not listening,
Speaker 1: you know that. But the half listening is wait, I
Speaker 1: thought they were listening to me, and they've kind of
Speaker 1: led me down here. So that's just something where I
Speaker 1: think some of the ideas of radical listening. I mean,
Speaker 1: we wrote this book thinking of a professional audience at
Speaker 1: some of the time, but it's a lot of it
Speaker 1: applies in our maybe in our closest relationships as well.
Speaker 3: Scott, do you mind You've just used this great phrase
Speaker 3: of meeting someone where they are. Do you mind if
Speaker 3: I ask.
Speaker 2: You a question? Oh? Absolutely, I don't mind. I don't mind.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's interesting because you're turning to us. We
Speaker 3: wrote a book on it, we have some expertise. But
Speaker 3: you're a professional listener. As someone with a show like this,
Speaker 3: you're doing hundreds of hours of interviewing and it's very
Speaker 3: specific kind of listening. And I'm curious what you've learned
Speaker 3: about the listening process just in doing this.
Speaker 2: Well, a lot of things I've learned really do dovetail
Speaker 2: with the things you talk about in your book, you.
Speaker 5: Know, the questioning, the being, you know, being careful, like
Speaker 5: when you're interjecting the art of interjecting right, Like there
Speaker 5: is an art to it. What I've I've done this
Speaker 5: ten years, you know, we just had our tenth year anniversary,
Speaker 5: and congratulations, thank you, thank you. Wasn't fishing for that,
Speaker 5: but I'll take it. Yeah, But after doing you, after
Speaker 5: doing so many interviews, you start to rely on intuition
Speaker 5: and you realize that there is a feeling, there is
Speaker 5: a cadence. I use the word cadence earlier, and so
Speaker 5: I'm just going to bring that back. I feel like
Speaker 5: I learned, I've learned to trust the cadence of a
Speaker 5: conversation without needing to force the cadence. And I think
Speaker 5: that's something that just I've internalized. So it's it's just
Speaker 5: so intuitive now after ten years. It's not like I
Speaker 5: started off with that internalized. But I'm saying, you you
Speaker 5: talk to enough people, you realize that conversations have a
Speaker 5: certain have different cadences to them, some which are more
Speaker 5: facilitative and to connection and to a real conversation, and
Speaker 5: some more conducive, some more jerky, you know, So we
Speaker 5: can we can kind of we can kind of like
Speaker 5: map out, you know, maybe like twenty to thirty different
Speaker 5: different kind of cadences in a really kind of a
Speaker 5: nerdy way. I bet we could come up with that
Speaker 5: if we kept talking, I could, you know, talk about
Speaker 5: thirty different signs. You know, there's the there's the angry one,
Speaker 5: there's the there's the the neutral one. There's a kind
Speaker 5: of conversation where neither party is particularly interested, you know,
Speaker 5: and then you know, and to the right, so you
Speaker 5: have a whole whole bunch to the left side of zero,
Speaker 5: a whole bunch to the right side of zero.
Speaker 2: M. I can keep going on, but that's that's my answer.
Speaker 3: It's fascinating. I hope there's a publication coming out of
Speaker 3: this because I.
Speaker 2: Think let's collaborate.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, map mapping conversation sounds like the next step.
Speaker 1: This kind of conversation is the kind of conversation Robert
Speaker 1: and I love, and that's where the book came from
Speaker 1: because we had so many conversations. Like you'll see in
Speaker 1: our book, we've got levels of acknowledgement. It came from
Speaker 1: this kind of conversation of Okay, well there's a middle
Speaker 1: and in our case it's called flatlining, and there's lots
Speaker 1: of acknowledgment, which is positive acknowledgment. Then we thought, well,
Speaker 1: you can less acknowledge a bit less or not acknowledge,
Speaker 1: or be the opposite of that. And so I'm very
Speaker 1: intrigued about this idea, and I love the idea of
Speaker 1: kind of something that would be useful for people, which
Speaker 1: is what kind of listener are you or what kind
Speaker 1: of listening interaction is this? And I love the oh,
Speaker 1: this is an angry one, this is an aligned one,
Speaker 1: and it allows me to just think about the cultural
Speaker 1: context as well, Scott of you know, cadence and thinking
Speaker 1: about cadence in the city versus the countryside, or in
Speaker 1: Spain versus Norway, and those kind of and and that
Speaker 1: idea of intuition, which is based on many years of experience.
Speaker 1: That's an important thing being able to pick up in
Speaker 1: this context. This is the listening that's most helpful.
Speaker 2: Yes, I love that. That's your The last part of
Speaker 2: your book is on the listening context, and you talk
Speaker 2: about how can we create a fertile ground for a
Speaker 2: radical listening? Do you you know, do you think that
Speaker 2: starts in education, like you think K through twelve? Could could,
Speaker 2: could could do something so that we don't have a
Speaker 2: bunch of man babies as adults. Sorry, I didn't mean
Speaker 2: to make that gender, but it seems gender these days
Speaker 2: for some reason.
Speaker 1: People babies. Yeah, yeah, Yes, I have a big interest
Speaker 1: in education. I think that's why I got into coaching
Speaker 1: in the first place, just thinking, wouldn't it be great
Speaker 1: if we could provide high quality learning experiences for every person.
Speaker 1: So that's what got me into coaching. And it's a
Speaker 1: great question and for me, you know, I think there's
Speaker 1: something there about ensuring respectful conversations right through an educational system.
Speaker 1: That's part of the fertile ground. You know, our teachers
Speaker 1: need to be listened to, they need to feel valued
Speaker 1: and appreciated. Our administrators need to be appreciated and value
Speaker 1: And I think that's the idea of the fertile ground.
Speaker 1: If we want our learners to have that kind of
Speaker 1: rich experience where people see things them that they don't see,
Speaker 1: that people are valued for their strengths rather than their weaknesses.
Speaker 1: My challenging comment is that has to be the same
Speaker 1: right throughout the educational system. And that's what I'd love
Speaker 1: for us to be working on, is how can we
Speaker 1: bring this kind of respectful interactions right through educational systems?
Speaker 1: And you're right, that would be a good place to
Speaker 1: start is our K to twelve. But another good place
Speaker 1: to start is our professional organizations. You know, people in employment.
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be great if they felt listened to, valued, appreciated.
Speaker 1: That would definitely increase engagement, it would increase well being.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'd love to start anywhere.
Speaker 3: I would definitely add to that that I think listening
Speaker 3: should be taught in schools. I'm a big fan of
Speaker 3: the idea of teaching psychological and social skills, teaching emotion literacy,
Speaker 3: but just teaching conversational skills. If you think about, for
Speaker 3: most people, the amount of time you spent studying trigonometry, geometry, calculus,
Speaker 3: or other higher forms of math relative to how much
Speaker 3: you use that math in your daily life versus how
Speaker 3: much time you spent studying listening compared with how much
Speaker 3: you actually listen in your daily life, you can see
Speaker 3: that it's disproportionately heavier on traditional academics and lighter on
Speaker 3: the skills that make up all day, every day of
Speaker 3: what we're doing.
Speaker 2: What a great point.
Speaker 5: I mean.
Speaker 2: We need to tell someone that, but like, no, what
Speaker 2: a great point.
Speaker 1: Go ahead, well, Scott, you're you're allowing us to say this,
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for creating this opportunity. You know,
Speaker 1: I really do appreciate the work that you do. I
Speaker 1: just love that you're able to share these ideas, and
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to you for inviting us along to
Speaker 1: talk about these things.
Speaker 2: Thanks. Christian, you always show up with an amazing presence
Speaker 2: of humbleness and an openness. You do too, Robert, But
Speaker 2: I'm just immediately responding to Christian. Yeah, there is I
Speaker 2: think this conversation today felt good and it really worked
Speaker 2: because all three of us are genuinely interested in hearing
Speaker 2: what the other person has to say about a topic
Speaker 2: that all three of us are interested in. And I
Speaker 2: think that's the key. Perfect storm, although that's a bad
Speaker 2: metaphor perfect, not storm, but perfect what a terrible metaphor.
Speaker 3: It's a trifecta.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right, So yeah, really great, Robert, is
Speaker 2: anything you want to add about about at a metal level?
Speaker 3: I would like to go back to one of the
Speaker 3: comments Christian made early on, which is just to remember
Speaker 3: a time that you have felt listened to, or where
Speaker 3: someone slowed down or paid extreme attention to you, where
Speaker 3: they really demonstrated interest with their questions, or they gave
Speaker 3: you a true acknowledgment. Not just hey, thanks for sending
Speaker 3: over that report, but hey, thank you so much for
Speaker 3: all the work you put into it. I couldn't have
Speaker 3: done this without.
Speaker 2: You, and.
Speaker 3: Just what that feels like. And once you kind of
Speaker 3: remember that, you almost can't help but feel obligated to
Speaker 3: go out and do that for others.
Speaker 2: Oh Man, I could agree more. Thanks to both of
Speaker 2: you so much for being on the show and I'm
Speaker 2: so glad. I can't wait to get this out there
Speaker 2: and help spread the word about your new book. Krats again,
Speaker 2: thanks again much