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Speaker 1: Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland

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Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. Now, there are

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Speaker 1: certain people in America that would rather burn into the

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Speaker 1: ground than share it with you. Okay, let's be clear.

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Speaker 1: They'd rather take it down. No one will have it.

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Speaker 1: And there's a fair number of those. We've heard people say, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, get the police. You know, a few bad apples.

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Speaker 1: It's not bad apples, it's a bad orchard, right, and

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Speaker 1: we have to recognize that it's been grown that way.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox. Last year,

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Speaker 1: for the first time, I heard the term post traumatic

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Speaker 1: slave syndrome. The moment I heard this phrase, I was intrigued.

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Speaker 1: I was familiar with the concept of epigenetics and research

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Speaker 1: that found that intergenerational trauma can quite literally be transmitted

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Speaker 1: through our d n A and passed down to the

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Speaker 1: next generation. I thought about my grandfather and great grandfather,

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Speaker 1: who were sharecroppers who were beaten on plantations and then

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Speaker 1: trapped and indentured servitude post emancipation, and the painful legacy

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Speaker 1: that violence and trauma have had on my family. I

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Speaker 1: knew I wanted to talk to the woman who coined

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Speaker 1: this term about her research and how we might begin

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Speaker 1: our collective healing from post traumatic slave syndrome. Dr Joy

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Speaker 1: de Grew is a nationally and internationally renowned researcher and

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Speaker 1: educator whose work focuses on the intersection of racism, trauma, violence,

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Speaker 1: and American childil slavery. She has published numerous peer reviewed

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Speaker 1: journal articles and authored her seminal book, Entitle post Traumatic

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Speaker 1: Slave Syndrome America's Legacy of Enduring Injuring. Please enjoy my

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Speaker 1: conversation with Dr Joy. Hello, Dr Joy, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. How are you feeling today? I am well,

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Speaker 1: How are you? I'm well. I'm really excited about this

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Speaker 1: conversation today about post traumatic slave syndrome. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about your background and what brought

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Speaker 1: you to um coined the term post traumatic slave syndrome

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Speaker 1: and do the research. Yes, my background is I have

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Speaker 1: I have a degree in communications and I have a

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Speaker 1: degree in ms W social work. I have a master's

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Speaker 1: degree also in clinical psychology. I have a PhD in

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Speaker 1: social work research. So that's my educational background, but I

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Speaker 1: think it's more about my lived experience that really led

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Speaker 1: me there. Um, I grew up my families from Louisiana,

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Speaker 1: and I grew up with my father went to the

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Speaker 1: sixth grade. My mother could have a full scholarship to college,

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Speaker 1: but stayed instead and raised a family. But my father

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Speaker 1: called himself an asiatic black man. So blackness was something

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Speaker 1: that was okay with me. You know, I'm sixty three

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Speaker 1: years old, and I grew up with a real healthy

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Speaker 1: feeling about my blackness. However, you know, I grew up

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Speaker 1: in a time when folks were called negroes and colored

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Speaker 1: and all the rest. But I remember as a child

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Speaker 1: hearing other kids, uh, and and adults, not just kids,

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Speaker 1: that if they got mad at you, they say you black,

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Speaker 1: and then fill into blank you black. And of course

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Speaker 1: the assumption here is that adding black is an an

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Speaker 1: additional injury or an additional insult. And for me, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: but you're black, you know what I mean. So it

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Speaker 1: didn't make sense to me. And then, you know, I

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Speaker 1: started to hear things like, oh my god, you know

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Speaker 1: she was so pretty even though she was dark. You know, uh,

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Speaker 1: he was he was really attractive. He was light skin,

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Speaker 1: diad had good hair. You know, all of those things

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Speaker 1: I grew up with and in in in context, I

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Speaker 1: guess that makes sense given the time, maybe, But then

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Speaker 1: I continue to hear it. You know, it didn't stop

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Speaker 1: all the way up until you know, two thousand and nine.

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Speaker 1: I think Chris Rock made the movie Good Hair, right. Um,

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Speaker 1: So for me, it started there, and it started with

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Speaker 1: me trying to understand what the ideology of that. Where

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Speaker 1: did that come from? You know, I've been to seven

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Speaker 1: countries in Africa. It wasn't an African thing. I heard

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Speaker 1: it from folks from the Caribbean. In other words, I

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Speaker 1: started to hear it from folks that shared a legacy

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Speaker 1: of enslavement, which was a very different and unique experience. Um.

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Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is while slavery itself,

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Speaker 1: and this is what you know, I got considerable pushback.

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Speaker 1: Slavery itself is not a new institution. It's existed for

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Speaker 1: a long time. And when people get really tested, they'll

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Speaker 1: tell you, well, you people enslaved each other. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, correct, and so did you people? Right? A

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, most societies in the world had some

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Speaker 1: form of indentured servitude or or slavery. So I'm starting

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Speaker 1: to look at where did this come from. And so

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Speaker 1: I started reading slave narratives. I started interviewing the oldest

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Speaker 1: people in my environment that I could that had memory right. Um,

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Speaker 1: And on one occasion, you know, actually at Lais Sandford,

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Speaker 1: who was the vice chancellor of education in New York,

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Speaker 1: I was on a on a radio call. She actually

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Speaker 1: called in and mentioned something that her grandmother had said

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Speaker 1: to her. Now, Adelaide was up in age at that

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Speaker 1: and I think she's in her nineties now, but she

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Speaker 1: talked about sitting at her grandmother's knee and hearing her

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Speaker 1: grandmother recount what it was like during slavery. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: I had enough context to realize that what is this?

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Speaker 1: Where did this come from? So I have now a

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Speaker 1: context of where it came from. I even have an

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Speaker 1: understanding of some of the behaviors, and I examined those

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Speaker 1: behaviors contemporary behavior years that folks don't even know why

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Speaker 1: they do what they do, right, because our history has

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Speaker 1: not been readily available to us, and their history we

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Speaker 1: have is a bit distorted, if not outright wrong about

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Speaker 1: about black people. And so I mean that's where I began,

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Speaker 1: and I began really trying to understand how we could

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Speaker 1: really love each other and embrace ourselves um better, you know,

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Speaker 1: And so that that's kind of where it starts. But

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Speaker 1: when I talk about post traumatic slave syndrome, um, I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about you know, some of the adaptive behaviors that

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Speaker 1: have been left over. Uh. It is not about a

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Speaker 1: pathologizing black people, It is not. It is about really

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Speaker 1: trying to tease the poison from the cookies. I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to tease out what is healthy, cultural understanding, knowledge and

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Speaker 1: relevant from the poison, which was what we had to

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Speaker 1: do to adapt to being in hostile environments. The kind

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Speaker 1: of things we had to do not look people well

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Speaker 1: in the eye, and you know, diminish our children so

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Speaker 1: people wouldn't look at our children as having value because

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Speaker 1: we didn't want them sold. I mean, all of the

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Speaker 1: things that we did. That makes sense. But you know,

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Speaker 1: when you start seeing those those behaviors, you know, like

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Speaker 1: I asked, so what this usually gets me trouble? You know,

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Speaker 1: has anyone heard of anyone saying go get a switch everybody?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I spoke to a whole room full of

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Speaker 1: psychiatrists and all the black pikers raising the hand, I said,

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Speaker 1: how many of them had you get a couple of

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Speaker 1: them and they brayed them together. You know, people are laughing.

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Speaker 1: I said, how many of them? How do you have?

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Speaker 1: You dip it? Leave it in water overnight? And then

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Speaker 1: they're like, wait a minute, I said, you know what

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Speaker 1: that is? That is pretty much a whip. Right, So

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Speaker 1: you're looking at a whip that you've created to hit

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Speaker 1: a child, right, and it's behavior. And then in the responses,

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Speaker 1: but big Mama loved me, and I'm like, yeah, big

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Speaker 1: Mama loved you, and I look at me, I'm okay.

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Speaker 1: I said, yeah, you're okay. In spy it of it,

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Speaker 1: not because of it. We don't have to hit children

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Speaker 1: with parts of branches on trees, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: So there there was that sense of culture, you see,

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Speaker 1: But what is it? What is it? Is it really

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Speaker 1: cultural or is it adaptive? Mm hmm? What do you think?

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Speaker 1: You know, it's really interesting. Many years ago, Jamie Foxx,

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Speaker 1: when he won his Academy award, talked about his grandmother,

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Speaker 1: you know, whipping him and beating him, and he sort

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Speaker 1: of made a joke of it and used in a

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Speaker 1: lot of black folks, we make jokes about getting the switch.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we laugh. It's a knowing laughter, but it's

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Speaker 1: traumatizing for a lot of us. What do you think

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Speaker 1: that laughter is about? Is it about trying to diminish

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Speaker 1: the pain of it? I think what happens. You know,

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Speaker 1: there is a wonderful statement by Isabel Wilkerson and her

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Speaker 1: book cast And and she talks about it in the

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Speaker 1: context of of of living in an old house and

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Speaker 1: getting used to the broken pieces and the you know,

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Speaker 1: propping up floors and leaking ceiling things. We begin to normalize,

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Speaker 1: do you see? We normalize it so it doesn't get

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Speaker 1: it doesn't get um really brought into our consciousness as

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Speaker 1: a trauma. Right now at the time it's happening is traumatic.

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Speaker 1: But what we do is we normalize those behaviors to

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Speaker 1: such a degree that we don't allow ourselves to see

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Speaker 1: it any other way. But imagine, just let's just unpack

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Speaker 1: that for a moment. I'm getting you've done something wrong.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to to punish you, and I'm gonna make

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Speaker 1: you go get the weapon I'm sending you to get

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Speaker 1: the thing to hurt you with. And so there's there's

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Speaker 1: so many implications of what's wrong with that, just the

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Speaker 1: whole psychological impact. Go get me a switch to hit

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Speaker 1: you with. Now again, seven countries in Africa, I didn't

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Speaker 1: see people wailing on children in that way. I'm not

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Speaker 1: suggesting that they don't somewhere and there, but that wasn't

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Speaker 1: the common practice that I have experienced and I've spoken about.

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Speaker 1: And I know there's an incredible violence. Don't get me wrong,

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Speaker 1: there's violence everywhere. But I think we have to take

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Speaker 1: into account. You can train uh elephant without hitting it,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, so, come on, we don't have

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Speaker 1: to hit children. You I'm talked about post traumatic slave

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Speaker 1: syndrome as an a set of adaptive behaviors. How would

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Speaker 1: you distinguish um Let's colleges pts S post traumatic slave

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Speaker 1: syndrome from epigenetics? Right when trauma is passed down through

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Speaker 1: our d n A and through our genes, is there

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Speaker 1: a difference for you between the two or is there similarity?

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Speaker 1: Are connected? They're connected, so that not everything. First of all,

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Speaker 1: let me let me kind of set up this this

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Speaker 1: reality around trauma, because people are talking a lot about

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Speaker 1: trauma in a lot of different ways, and there's a clinical,

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Speaker 1: you know, a discussion of trauma where you experience a

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Speaker 1: severe you know, someone threatened your life, or something violent happens,

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Speaker 1: or it could even be a natural disaster, whatever, and

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Speaker 1: it causes your body to go into a certain kind

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Speaker 1: of it or flight or freeze kind of behavior. Right,

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Speaker 1: So there's that reality. Now, we could both be in

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Speaker 1: the same room together, and let's say we're at the conference,

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Speaker 1: you and I. We're at the conference and someone um

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Speaker 1: shoots somebody in the room shoots him, right, and well,

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Speaker 1: we know one that person is traumatized. Probably the person

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Speaker 1: seated nearest to them might be traumatized, but not necessarily

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Speaker 1: because everybody is not traumatized by traumatic events. Not you

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Speaker 1: know everybody that somebody will go wh it was really bad,

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Speaker 1: it was horrible. Let's go to lunch. Right, So we

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Speaker 1: don't all we don't all have the same response. When

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Speaker 1: I talk about post traumatic slave syndrome, I'm not talking

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Speaker 1: about a single trauma. I'm not even talking about a

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Speaker 1: clinical diagnosis, because a clinical diagnosis means that we could

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Speaker 1: get you some medication, get you in the room, people

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Speaker 1: talk to you softly couple of times a week, help

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Speaker 1: you out with that. Postraumatic slave syndrome requires much more

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Speaker 1: than that. It requires social justice. You gotta stop hitting me.

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Speaker 1: That's one, and the trauma itself reflects itself in what

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Speaker 1: I call social learning. So let me explain the difference.

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Speaker 1: So epigenetics that you know, if if something is showing

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Speaker 1: up as markers on your DNA, you know, once is there,

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Speaker 1: you can do something. You can actually change the trajectory.

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Speaker 1: And I'll talk about that. But there's something else that

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Speaker 1: we do, and that is called social learning. Social learning

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Speaker 1: theory looks at how we are influenced by everyone around us.

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Speaker 1: So for you, if if you learned to cook, or

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Speaker 1: if I learned to cook, and I know who I

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Speaker 1: learned to cook from. I learned to cook from my mother.

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Speaker 1: My mother learned to cook from her mother. So I

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Speaker 1: begin to do some of the things through my social

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Speaker 1: learning that my mother did, right, So that's a social

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Speaker 1: learning phenomena. Now let's put it in an advantage point

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Speaker 1: of trauma. Okay, there is a door and at that

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Speaker 1: door there are guards, and if anyone goes to the door,

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Speaker 1: they beat them down. After a while, you know, folks

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Speaker 1: stop going to the door because they don't want to

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Speaker 1: get beaten down or killed. But I'm learning also from

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Speaker 1: those people in my environment. So if you are my champion.

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Speaker 1: If you're the person I'm looking up to, and you

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Speaker 1: won't go through the door, I then vicariously learn a

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Speaker 1: helplessness that says, well, if my hero, my you know,

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Speaker 1: the person that that raised me won't go through the door,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going through the door. If this is called

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Speaker 1: learned helplessness, learned helplessness as well, you know I nobody's

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Speaker 1: going through I'm not. There's nothing over there anyway, Why

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Speaker 1: does anybody when we start making up reasons why we

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Speaker 1: don't go through the door, But the opposite is also true.

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Speaker 1: You can confound that because if you go through the door,

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Speaker 1: then I go, well, if if she can go through

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Speaker 1: the door, then I can go through the door. And

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Speaker 1: so what we have is social learning which can end

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Speaker 1: up being learned helplessness, which began with animals. They took dogs,

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Speaker 1: they put them in an h in a fenced area,

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Speaker 1: turned on a red light. Every time the light came on,

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Speaker 1: they shocked the dog wherever they were. Then, after all,

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Speaker 1: you didn't need the shock, you didn't need the reinforcement.

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Speaker 1: The light would come on, dog would move. Then they

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Speaker 1: just wanted to see, let's just shock the dog arbitrarily,

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Speaker 1: whether the light is on or not. The dog will

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Speaker 1: lie down, it will no longer move because it learns

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Speaker 1: that no matter what I do, it won't change the outcome.

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Speaker 1: That's learned helplessness. And we can learn to be helpless

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Speaker 1: if we're in an environment where we are consistently put

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Speaker 1: upon by these hostile behaviors, and then we we model

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Speaker 1: that behavior for our children. That's modeling, that's not that's

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Speaker 1: not epigenetic that that is what we're learning. But then

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Speaker 1: on top of that we have epigenetic transference or trauma. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's really deep. And then what that makes me think

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Speaker 1: of two are the systems that teach us that no

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Speaker 1: matter what we do, we're still going to be in

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Speaker 1: the same circumstances no matter who we vote for democratic

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Speaker 1: public and they've all been bought by corporate interests, so

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter, and so we don't vote and

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Speaker 1: we feel helpless, and it's just pick up to this cycle.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, I think the piece though, for me

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Speaker 1: with epic genetics, with post traumatic slave syndrome, what is

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Speaker 1: the conversation so that we don't take postmatic slave syndrome

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Speaker 1: and say I'm a victim forever and there's nothing we

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Speaker 1: can do, but take that as an understanding, as a

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Speaker 1: way to heal and understand that we can be agents

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Speaker 1: in our own life. Absolutely, And when I wrote post traumatic, originally,

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Speaker 1: you know, my whole focus is healing. And you can't

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Speaker 1: heal what you don't understand. Amen, And you most certainly

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Speaker 1: aren't going to stop behaviors that you have come to

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Speaker 1: accept as normal, just like we began to you know,

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Speaker 1: in Isabel Wokerson's statement that you began to accept all

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Speaker 1: of the problems, you adapt to them, you adopt them,

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Speaker 1: and you begin to realize or believe that this is

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Speaker 1: how life has to be. And what I do is

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Speaker 1: I give people. I said, let's examine what we've learned,

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Speaker 1: let's examine why I behave the way I behave, and

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Speaker 1: let's make a decision about you know, God blessing my parents.

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Speaker 1: They gave us the best that they could given what

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Speaker 1: they had. But there there are some things that my

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Speaker 1: parents did taught that I did not share with my kids.

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Speaker 1: I didn't raise them that way. I had a different experience,

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Speaker 1: a different perception of the world. And I think post

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Speaker 1: traumatic helps people, um remember where we came from. Right

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Speaker 1: If we think this is not nowhere close to as

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Speaker 1: deep as it's been. So I know we can move

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Speaker 1: beyond this, but we have to again as we move forward,

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Speaker 1: we have to do it intentionally. We have to lean

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Speaker 1: in in a way and and say, well, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: do I want to call people out of their name

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Speaker 1: like that? Do I want to assess black people in

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Speaker 1: this way as a total pathological group of people? Do

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Speaker 1: I what? What? What is it that I've learned even

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Speaker 1: from people we love that I don't want to maybe

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Speaker 1: continue on we aren't really necessarily exam I'm in in

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Speaker 1: those parts of our lives to say, you know, again,

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Speaker 1: I know my family gave me the best they could,

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Speaker 1: but there were some gaps there that I had to

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Speaker 1: make some decisions about with regard to my own children.

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Speaker 1: So I'll give you an example of something that happened

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Speaker 1: there was amazing my when I was a little girl,

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Speaker 1: I remember being so small. I'm looking up at my

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Speaker 1: grandmother's hand, so I'm I'm gotta be a toddler, right,

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Speaker 1: maybe three maximum. And I noticed that when my grandmother

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Speaker 1: was upset, she always had an apron off and she

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Speaker 1: would be holding the edge of that apron in her hand,

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Speaker 1: just holding it tight and she didn't even know it.

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Speaker 1: She wouldn't even know she's doing it. But what got

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Speaker 1: internalized in me is something's wrong. Because I didn't have

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Speaker 1: I was maybe even pre verbal. I'm just all I

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Speaker 1: know is when I see that hand type, something's wrong

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Speaker 1: with grandma. My mother did it. My mother's sister didn't.

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Speaker 1: Years later, I would find myself this is an absolute truth.

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Speaker 1: I'd find myself after a lecture. You see this, a

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Speaker 1: little ball, a piece of tissue. It would be in

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Speaker 1: my hand. I wouldn't know when it got there, and

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Speaker 1: I never let go of it. And I was like, wow,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't holding the side of my dress like my

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Speaker 1: mom or my my grandmother or my aunt. But I

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Speaker 1: had that balled up tissue in my hand. So I

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Speaker 1: called my sister who's older to be right. And I

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Speaker 1: called my sister and she said, you too. I found

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Speaker 1: out my daughter did it, my daughter. But once my

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Speaker 1: sister and I found out about it, talked about it,

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Speaker 1: began to do some things to change it. We said, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna zip up the pocket or do something, but

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Speaker 1: we're not gonna be holding Now. I understand holding the tissue.

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Speaker 1: You ain't gonna hurt me. It's not one way or another.

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Speaker 1: But I'm trying to show how things get transmitted without

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Speaker 1: you even consciously knowing it. My granddaughter does not do it,

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Speaker 1: my grand and part of what happened. You remember, what

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Speaker 1: gets internalized, its stressed. That's what I learned. That's what

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Speaker 1: I internalized from my grandmother. Something's wrong. It's something stressful.

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Speaker 1: And when things were stressful, my grandmother, my mother, and

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Speaker 1: my aunt, I did it, and clearly I did it

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Speaker 1: enough for my daughter to get it, but she didn't

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Speaker 1: do it enough for her daughter to get it. In

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Speaker 1: other words, the stress or however we interpreted it, changed

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Speaker 1: along the way, but sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it

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Speaker 1: gets worse. And it's not a piece of tissue, right,

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Speaker 1: It's a behavior, it's a word you say, it's an assault.

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Speaker 1: It could be any number of things that I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: We have to pay attention to those things to make

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Speaker 1: certain that they're not something that we are unwittingly passing along. Now,

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Speaker 1: good news, good news about epigenetics, which I really you know,

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Speaker 1: I've been really geeked about. Is they were talking about telomeres.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna even get into it gets thick in

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Speaker 1: terms of these telomeres and the protection of your DNA

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Speaker 1: and all that. But they've said that what helps people

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Speaker 1: change and regrow healthy cells and healthy telemeres is to

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Speaker 1: actually pay attention to the way you're thinking. Your actual

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Speaker 1: mindfulness exactly presents practicing being present, not running from things. Right,

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Speaker 1: So when I look at black people, it's a lasting

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Speaker 1: in the world. I ever consider that we are victims?

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Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? For me? Even when I deal

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Speaker 1: with other people of color? You know, if listen, let's

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Speaker 1: let's be plain about this. A lot of people walked

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Speaker 1: in the door that we knocked down. Are you with me?

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Speaker 1: We knocked down, we were water holes, we were dogs,

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Speaker 1: and lynchings and beatings. We knocked on those doors. And

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Speaker 1: what that says to me is that's what we're gonna

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Speaker 1: do whenever this happens, whenever it occurs, we are going

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Speaker 1: to show up for ourselves and for each other and

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Speaker 1: to the benefit of everybody else. To be perfectly honest,

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Speaker 1: when we start looking at things like civil rights. So

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Speaker 1: you know, I think, and I'm not suggesting there weren't

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Speaker 1: people that were involved, but come on, we know, knock

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Speaker 1: down the door and the cost of knocking down that door.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, we we we have things that we have

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Speaker 1: to deal with, I mean any group, and we are

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Speaker 1: human beings, so certainly three years of slavery produce injury.

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Speaker 1: Con you know, we're humans absolutely, And what you say

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Speaker 1: so much in your in your work, in your research

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Speaker 1: is that those injuries have continued right through sharecropping, through

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Speaker 1: Jim Crow, through math, incarceration, et cetera. That the injuries continue.

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Speaker 1: How's that for a little truth after a tiny little break,

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Speaker 1: We've got so much more for you. Let's get back

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Speaker 1: to our chat, back to the piece around, because we

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Speaker 1: talk a lot about trauma on this podcast. I'm really

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Speaker 1: interested in trauma resilience, and um, I've interviewed my therapist

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Speaker 1: Jennifer burten Flyer about trauma and trauma resilience, and she says,

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Speaker 1: the body can experience good things as well as challenging things.

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Speaker 1: It's too much, too fast, too soon, and that, um,

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Speaker 1: it's not just about understanding trauma is something horrible has

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Speaker 1: happened to us. But those stressors that you allude to

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Speaker 1: when you're grabbing that bald up piece of paper, and

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Speaker 1: the way to sort of, you know, begin to alleviate

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Speaker 1: that is to build resilience to these behaviors, having an

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Speaker 1: awareness of it, and having a sort of set of

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Speaker 1: things that we can do to sort of alleviate all

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Speaker 1: of those things. So with post traumatic slave syndrome, right,

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Speaker 1: what's deep for me at this historical moment is that,

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Speaker 1: like one, you can turn on the television or go

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Speaker 1: on the internet and to see people saying that structural

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Speaker 1: racism doesn't exist, that white supremacy isn't a thing in

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Speaker 1: the United States, that Black people need to get over slavery,

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Speaker 1: that we're just being you know, all these all these

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Speaker 1: things that people say that invalidates the experiences of black

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Speaker 1: folks not owning the history, the real history of what

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Speaker 1: happened in the United States. And I love your work

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Speaker 1: too because you say that white folks also have post

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Speaker 1: traumatic slay syndrome, right, That that white folks were involved

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Speaker 1: in this and the dehumanization of black folks, that white

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Speaker 1: folks lost their humanity as well. So what ine with

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Speaker 1: all of this through disinformation going on around reality and history,

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Speaker 1: what do you have to say to that, do we

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Speaker 1: just keep pushing back and telling the truth and with

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Speaker 1: love and empathy or what girl? Well, that was a

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Speaker 1: lot um and you know what, no, no, no, uh. Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, I believe that we have to always

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Speaker 1: speak the truth. I believe that truthfulness is a foundation

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Speaker 1: of all human virtue, that if you're not truthful, you

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Speaker 1: cannot be well. In America's pathology is her denial. And

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Speaker 1: so part of what we have to do is continue

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Speaker 1: to bring these things to the light. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: it's an eventuality. In other words, it's it's inevitable. Unity

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Speaker 1: and oneness as a species is an inevitability, whether it's

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Speaker 1: going to be something pretty horrific that gets us there

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Speaker 1: or an act of will um, that's what's before us.

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Speaker 1: But it's inevitable. And what I mean by that is

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Speaker 1: it's like when the tobacco industry, for example, during an

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Speaker 1: I was a little kid, I used to go buy

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Speaker 1: segress for a body in neighborhood. By the way, I

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Speaker 1: was like eight, and the right to know, give me

425
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 1: the little running the store, get Salem's Winston, you know, Chesterfield,

426
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: all of that. I was eight. And now I just listen, Lavery.

427
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: I believe right now I've been on a gazillion zooms.

428
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 1: That's no doubt you have also, and I've never even

429
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: seen anybody try to light up a cigarette on a zoom.

430
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: You understand me, you in your own house. It's so

431
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: outside of the of the reality. I used to tell

432
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: my grandkids, you know how we have special ash trays

433
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: for the holidays and all this, and they're laughing. They

434
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: don't even know what ash tray is. So how do

435
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: we move from me at eight years old running to

436
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: the store getting cigarettes to the point now where if

437
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: someone lit up a cigarette in a room, I think

438
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: the peer pressure, but put the cigarette out, And if

439
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 1: I didn't do it, we start psychoanalyzing them, and they

440
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: did someone dyeing the family? What's wrong with you? You

441
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: have lit up a cigarette? How did that happen? How

442
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,959
Speaker 1: did we see people? We know what happened, And there

443
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 1: was a paradigm shift so much so, I mean, here

444
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: I am. I grew up with when there was a

445
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: smoking section of airplanes, which is insane, and and I

446
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: remember how you know, all of a sudden there was

447
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: a switch, and what happened was a preponderance of evidence.

448
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: In other words, there was so much evidence that it

449
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: forced the paradigm shift. And you see racism, anti blackness,

450
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 1: all these things we're seeing there is a preponderance of

451
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: evidence and different than any other time in history. You

452
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: can push your button and see it in lifetime. I'm

453
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: not waiting for ABC or NBC or somebody else to

454
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: tell me. I can see it in real time. And

455
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 1: because of that is causing too much cognitive dissonance, too

456
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: much dissonance, and the human being that goes. I can't

457
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: I know this. I can't I know it, And I've

458
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 1: got to make a determination. I said, I said this

459
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 1: a while ago, that they're gonna look back at this

460
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 1: time and they're gonna look at you and I and

461
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: everyone else, and they're gonna say, what side of history

462
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: where you want? Because history is happening right now, History

463
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,239
Speaker 1: is being made. But what side of history are you on?

464
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 1: You know? And like I said, with black people, it's

465
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: it's always amazing to me how it is people always

466
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: tell black folks to get over it. Oy tell black

467
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 1: people get over it. Oh get over I dare you

468
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: to tell someone Jewish to get over their Holocaust. I

469
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: dare you to do it. I dare you. And what

470
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: I know about the Jewish community, having worked with the

471
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: Jewish community for many, many years, is they don't care

472
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 1: what you think. Okay, First of all, they honor their

473
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: holocausts how much so that they want their children to

474
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: know who paid for them. It's just so interesting. And

475
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: we're looking at people long try hundreds of years of

476
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 1: being tortured, beaten, mutilated, raped, sold hundreds of years, and

477
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 1: right now the world is being asked to to look

478
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: at its own humanity, to look at our intrinsic oneness

479
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: as as a people on the planet the little Blue marble.

480
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: You know, I look at post traumatic and what I

481
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 1: understood and what I see and what I also know

482
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: clinically it's post traumatic requires social justice. This can't be

483
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 1: fixed because we all understand our intrinsic worth and nobility

484
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: as human beings. That's great, but you're still hitting me.

485
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: You're still beating me. You know, I not only want

486
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: you to heal from things and to to reevaluate your

487
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: behavior and your decisions. I want you to do that.

488
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: I certainly want you to do that, but I also

489
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: certainly want to stop the processes from ever happening that

490
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: make you have to begin to deal with the injuries.

491
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: I want to prevent the injury. And perhaps that's repert

492
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: rations on a lot of levels. Perhaps that, but most

493
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 1: certainly involves structural and institutional change and sometimes of total reordering,

494
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: because you know, some things you can't fix. People have

495
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: talked to me about policing, of course, and my airbas

496
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: for these is actually violenced. And so I looked, I've

497
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: looked a lot at violence, and they'll go with you, Joy,

498
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: what do we do to to fix the police? Fix

499
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 1: the policing as policing isn't broken, it's doing exactly what

500
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: it was designed to do. Every system is designed to

501
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: get the results that against what we have to understand.

502
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: If we understand slave patrols, and we understand the history

503
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: of policing, you want your police officer you're biased. Okay,

504
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: you don't get to be in communities of color. You

505
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: can't be in communities are people you might harm. Except

506
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: for what happened at the Capitol. When that stuff came

507
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: down at the Capitol. You know those senators, all those folks,

508
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: they started vetting the National Guards, they started vetting them.

509
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,959
Speaker 1: They said, wait, wait, we get ready have inauguration, all

510
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: we need to check to see if they may be

511
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: one of them. And they eliminated at least twelve of them.

512
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: Why don't we vetting. Police officers are coming to our community.

513
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: See they they knew the vet to protect themselves. And

514
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: what I think about a lot. You know that you

515
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: heard about the preschool and if you go online, it

516
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: went viral. Right now, it hit me a lot of

517
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: different ways, right, and all this stuff is really you know,

518
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: some of it's very triggering. But for me, I was

519
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: just I was so bad. Everybody knows that that's that's

520
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: Dr Joyce thing right now. Everybody needs to be vetted

521
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: before you put them in front of our children. So

522
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: what happened was it's a pre school, and in the

523
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: preschool they have these cameras and so all parents can,

524
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: you know, look at what their little kids are doing.

525
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: And a black parent checked in to see what was

526
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: going on and captured a picture of every Now these

527
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: are little bit of kids three or four years yearls, right,

528
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: every single white child had to play the food in

529
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: front of and not one Black child had to play

530
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: the food in front of them. Not one. And so

531
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: now again here's here's the thing. Here's what shows up

532
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: for me as a as a you know, I taught

533
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: a human development for a number of years at the university,

534
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: and I'm going so the children are learning something. They're innocent,

535
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: these children, the white children, the black children, they're innocent

536
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,479
Speaker 1: little children, but they're learning something. The white children are

537
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: at the very least learning. We're special and they're learning,

538
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: and we're certainly more special than you. And then the

539
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: black children what gets internalized. They thought, oh god, we

540
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: must have done something wrong. We're bad. That's what happens

541
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: at that age. They begin to try to find between

542
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: their ears a reason for it, and they don't tell

543
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: their parents, they don't tell anyone because they've they've internalized

544
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: I have done something wrong. And that's what angered me

545
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: the most. It's shame, yes, it's shame. Yes. Renee Brown

546
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,479
Speaker 1: tells his great story, UM the shame. Researcher Brene who

547
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: I always make this podcast, tells his great story about

548
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: the difference between shame and humiliation. Um. This happened in

549
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: her research where a teacher skipping back papers and says,

550
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: I happened paper here without a name? Who didn't get

551
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: a paper? And then Chrissie didn't get a paper, And

552
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: so the teacher goes on to say, Chrissy, you're stupid.

553
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: I'll give you a name. S t U p I

554
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: d And now if the child internalizes this as embarrassment

555
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: or humiliation, they'll go home and they'll tell their parents

556
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: this horrible thing happened to me. This teacher called me stupid.

557
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: But if the child internalizes it a shame, they don't

558
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: say anything to the parent because there's no news there.

559
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: The teacher called me stupid, I am stupid. And so

560
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: the way the ways in which we internalized shame made

561
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: me to think about the question that you alluded to,

562
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: you know, a little while back, of like the ways

563
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: in which we internalize these things as black folks, right,

564
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: and the ways in which that the psychic trauma of slavery,

565
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: of white supremacy affects us in terms of shame. And

566
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: so that piece of shame that it's very much also

567
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: linked to trauma, has to be addressed in us if

568
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: we want to not perpetuate these kinds of adaptive behaviors

569
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: that we been unconsciously passing down. Absolutely absolutely, you know,

570
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: I had many years ago, I was in New York

571
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: lecturing and I received a phone call from my oldest son.

572
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: And my oldest son has a taxic cerebral palsy, very

573
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: mild case, but you know, it's affected his whole life.

574
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: And he's calling me and he's really really really frustrated,

575
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: and he's and he's going, Mom, Mom, the police. He

576
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: was talking about his brother, not his brother. Um had

577
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: had was trying to meet him downtown Portland's Lord help

578
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: him downtown Portland's to give them give him his ID

579
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: which he had left at his house. And my younger

580
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: son at the time was nineteen and and so my

581
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: son sees his brother across the street, steps off the

582
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,959
Speaker 1: curb about maybe twelve inches from the crosswalk, so you know,

583
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: like just right outside the cross walk, and he hears

584
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: a little siren and a police turns the car, so

585
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: he steps back on the curb. He doesn't continue to

586
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: he steps back, and the police officer gets out of

587
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: the car and says, improper use of cross wall. And

588
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: he says, but I didn't, I didn't cross what's your name? Right?

589
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: So it starts drilling my son. Soon two or three

590
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: more police cars come. Now, remember he stepped off and

591
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: stepped on, not our three police cars of a cross wall.

592
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: That is what it was. He told, improper use a

593
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: cross wall. Meanwhile, there's a couple, a white couple with

594
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: a stroller and a baby that just crossed the street

595
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: right in the middle street, and and my son looks

596
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: at the police officer goes, what what in The police

597
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: officer goes, police don't please, don't cross there. Oh sorry,

598
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: and they continue across and keep going. Now, remember I'm

599
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: three thousand miles away. Dr Joy's three thousand miles away, right, So, uh,

600
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: what happens is I know my my son is agitated.

601
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: I can only imagine the humiliation he's feeling. So I

602
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: say to my son, tell the police officer, uh, that

603
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: I'd like to speak with him. And I heard the

604
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: police officer say, well, I don't. I don't have time

605
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: to do. I said, tell him, my name is Dr Jeu,

606
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: he grew, I'm a professor porter sat University. So all

607
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: of a sudden he's got the phone. Well, um, uh,

608
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: you know your son was getting loud and making it

609
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: you know. He says, Well, what we'll do is we'll

610
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 1: let him go with a warning. Now, at this point,

611
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: my son is handcuffed in the back seat of the car. Meanwhile,

612
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: you got all the people you know, circling around him,

613
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: you know, the bad, evil, violent whatever. So the police

614
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: take the handcuffs off of him, at which point he

615
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 1: puts his hand in his pocket. All the guns are drawn.

616
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: Now you put him in there, so you know he

617
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: didn't have a gun, right, he reached in his pocket

618
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: to give his brother his I d that's why they

619
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: were there, at which point I start talking to him

620
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: and I say, listen, you don't have to say anything.

621
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: You don't have say anything. Just listen to my voice

622
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: and start walking. You and your brother start walking and

623
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: tell me when you're two blocks away. So he's walking

624
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: and I'm saying, listen, son, I'm telling him all the

625
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: things that I know that I could say. And after

626
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: two blocks he burst into tears and he says that

627
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: they're gonna kill me. Mom, They're gonna kill me. It

628
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 1: doesn't matter that you raised me. Well, it doesn't matter

629
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: that I'm a good person, Mom, it doesn't matter. They're

630
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 1: gonna kill me. And I remember that moment and I thought,

631
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: how dare you, son? How dare you? I said, there

632
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: were people that had a hundred years of slavery behind them,

633
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: and they were gonna look at two hundred years in

634
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: front of him. That's what they had to do with.

635
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: How dare you? Son? Say? Now at this point, you

636
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: cannot give up, not now, And he sucked up his tears.

637
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: He says, I'm sorry, Mom, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I

638
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: got it. I'm okay, I'm okay. And I cried for

639
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: two hours after that talk. I cried for two hours

640
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: because I'm I'm listening to the weight of what my

641
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: son is ring. And I had to have the presence

642
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: of mind to tell him about the shoulders he was

643
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: standing on. I had to tell him about those who

644
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: paid for him, and that we didn't go through all

645
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: this for you to get here and say what you

646
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 1: can't do. But I was shattered. You know, we gotta

647
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 1: walk through the world in this skin. We've got to

648
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: help our boys survive in this skin. We've got to

649
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: help our girls survive in this skin. And the last

650
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: thing they need it's someone that looks like them, you know,

651
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: it looks just like them, that begins to berate them

652
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: or or humiliate them, or shame them because of their blackness. Um, Jesus,

653
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: that story is still heroin. Can I ask you your

654
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: thoughts on because I you know, we were talking about

655
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: defunding the police, reallocating resources to some people want to

656
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: abolish the police, there's someone who's the police officers really

657
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: close to me right now, who I understand it's an amazing, sweet,

658
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: loving human being. People have police officers in their lives

659
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: who are amazing human beings. And then it happened to

660
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 1: your son, right and what happened to George Floyd happened

661
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: to him and Brianna Taylor and etcetera, etcetera. And there's

662
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: the history of that system and every political realities of

663
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 1: that system right now, what would you say in the

664
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: context of all of that. Okay, So again, I believe

665
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: that certain things are poison at the root, and when

666
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: we look at root cause analysis, then we have to

667
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: recognize that the healing or the change has to happen

668
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: at the root. Think about it this way. Every major

669
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: institution in America, every major institution in America has its

670
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: at its root, white supremacy. I don't care if you

671
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: want to be a doctor, I don't care if you

672
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: want to be an architect, I don't care what you

673
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: want to be. At its root, it's poison. Right. So

674
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: you have institutions, like you have educational institutions that are

675
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: literally they're really late in the game. Actually, each one

676
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: of them had their way of perpetuating it. But we

677
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 1: have always had to coexist in this reality. Right, these

678
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: systems are designed this way. For example, you look at

679
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: all the Karen's right, I mean, why why do you

680
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: get to falsely accused someone of something that could cost

681
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 1: in their lives and then you get to walk away

682
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: straight up live. We got it on on tape that

683
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: you're lying. Why do you not get Actually, I know

684
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: in California at least they put it out there it's

685
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: called the Karen Act. Where they are going it is,

686
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: I'm telling the truth. It's an acronym the Karen Act.

687
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: I'm not a certain certain word is in terms of

688
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: having made it through, but it certainly was was something

689
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: that put forth because I'm going, why is there absolutely

690
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 1: no accountability? My problem with all of this is that

691
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: there's no accountability. Like I said, you can deal with

692
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: the police and you can go so far, and then

693
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 1: you got the lobbyists, then you've got the police union

694
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: and the awards and all those folks, and ultimately it

695
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: all goes to the judge that could say, yeah, I'm

696
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: gonna dismiss this. Are you following me? So? So what

697
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 1: what I what I'm recognizing is when people start talking

698
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 1: about a fix, we're talking about a total transformation that

699
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: has to happen. And in some institutions that's something that's

700
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: easier to do because you have a board of directors

701
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 1: or you have certain people, and there's diverse voices there,

702
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:28,720
Speaker 1: and there's power in those diverse voices. That's the crucial piece,

703
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: because I don't care about any of this if there's

704
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: no teeth in it. That's what I'm saying. I need

705
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: you to stop hurting us on every single one of

706
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: those levels. I need to take that power out of

707
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: your hands, because we're just one crazy political person, uh director,

708
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: you know whoever the person is in power away from

709
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 1: getting sent back twenty years. Right, everything we've built, it's undone.

710
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: That can happen at the Supreme Court any minute now.

711
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: And there's there's a lot of work that it's probably

712
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: going to be undone at the Supreme Court level. And

713
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: then we're seeing it happened in state houses where conservatives

714
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: hold most of the governorship and most of the state legislatures.

715
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: This is a good time to take a little break.

716
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: A lot more is coming now. Okay, Okay, we're back.

717
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: Let's keep the conversation going. What it feels like right

718
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 1: now is that there is I would say, post Briana Taylor,

719
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: George Floyd in Awakening, that a lot of Americans have

720
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: had of all races writing. We're having these conversations differently,

721
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: and there's different kinds of pushes around on racial equity.

722
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is the backlash is ferocious, and

723
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: what was once a dog whistle is now a bark,

724
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: and it is like the blatant white supremacy that is

725
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: just out there now is harrowing, and it's it's a

726
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: it's gagging. It's a gag, girl, it's a lot. I'm like, whoa,

727
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: this is just straight up Nazis that's being fed on

728
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: like national television every night. So we're at this like

729
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: it's like white supremacist last stand or something. I don't know.

730
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 1: I hope, I hope it's the last stand. But what

731
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: what is what needs to happen right now is like

732
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: it's the big structural change that I'm not convinced is

733
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: going to happen. And so what I'm buoyed by is

734
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: our history as black folks. Right We've we've been through

735
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: a lot, and we found a way to be resilient

736
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: and be amazing and awesome, but it is also really

737
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: scary because you know, inability to pass a minimum wage

738
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 1: or a pro act or an equality act so that

739
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: we don't go back there in lies. I keep telling

740
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: people that you have to recognize that there is a

741
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: last my father would say, the last gasp of a

742
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 1: dying dog. There is change in the wind. And we

743
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: have numbers. It's a it's a matter of numbers and time.

744
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: After a while, like I said, the inevitability is going

745
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: to happen. We are going to come to this. Now.

746
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: There are certain people in America that would rather burn

747
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 1: into the ground than share it with you. Okay, let's

748
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,879
Speaker 1: be clear. They'd rather take it down. No one will

749
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: have it. And there's a fair number of those. And

750
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: we've heard people say, well, you know the police, you

751
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: know a few bad apples. It's not bad apples. It's

752
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: a bad orchard, right, And we have to recognize that

753
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: it's been grown that way. And if we are to

754
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: to move beyond this, we're talking about a change in

755
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: the power. Now, how much do you think it's gonna

756
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: take for folks to exchange that the hand of power?

757
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: Because that's what we're talking about here at the end

758
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,959
Speaker 1: of the day. Money power, greed, That's how we got here.

759
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: And so you have a lane here, right, this is

760
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 1: your lane. Do do what you can do. Dr Joy

761
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: gonna do what she can do in her lane. And

762
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,720
Speaker 1: I believe that all of us have that to do.

763
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,720
Speaker 1: When I start looking act at all of our leaders,

764
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 1: all of those who came before us, I mean, I

765
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: keep thinking about the crazy stuff I've heard. You know,

766
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 1: my guidance counselor telling me I was in college material

767
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: with four degrees, told me I was told me I

768
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: got four degrees. I tell everybody. The only thing that

769
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: angers me is that she didn't live long enough for

770
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: me to go back and blow her hair back, you know.

771
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: But it was just the whole idea that my family,

772
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 1: you know, even though my parents didn't go to college,

773
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: they knew we were gonna go to college. But how

774
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 1: about that family that didn't. How many people did this

775
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: woman destroy? How many people did she harm? How much

776
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: shame did she produce? There was a yelled child study

777
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: program actually found a bias and like a hundred and

778
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: thirty five teachers. Right, so now we have evidence hundred

779
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 1: thirty five and and I'm not saying all those white teachers, right,

780
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: so you have the hunder thirty five teachers, they find

781
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: this bias. Now every black person, Latin next people. We

782
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 1: all sent our kids into the schools and we just

783
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 1: hope you're not gonna hurt him. We're gonna, we hope

784
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: because we remember what happened was but we just hope. Well,

785
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: here's where I'm different. This is my lane, right, I

786
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: got skin in the game. I got grandkids in schools.

787
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: My family tends to wrap themselves around the schools our

788
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: kids are in and show up volunteer. I'll train any

789
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: warm body you put in front of me. But here's

790
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do. When I go in and say, Okay,

791
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 1: Miss Wilson, I understand that you're gonna be working with

792
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,359
Speaker 1: my grandson here. I want to know what you're gonna

793
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: do to mitigate any potential harm to him as a

794
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: result of intrinsic bias. Now. Ms Wilson may go, I

795
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: don't think I understand what you mean. I said, well,

796
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: here's the data, Okay I want to give I wanna

797
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: give it to you. I'm gonna give you. Here's the research.

798
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: Here is the current data. Al Right, great, now you

799
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 1: got that, and that's the piece. That is the piece

800
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: people really are pushing back against implicit bias, right, some

801
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: people who want to be in denial about white supremacy.

802
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: And what I really want to get through to people

803
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: is that you do not have to be a white

804
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: person to internalize anti black bias. You can be a

805
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: back person internalizing anti black bias and perpetuating that onto

806
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 1: other black people. Black folks are doing it all the time,

807
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: and if black folks can do it to ourselves and

808
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: each other, it is certainly possible. It's not plausible that

809
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: white folks are doing as well. So we have to

810
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: be willing to do that self interrogation and people. It's

811
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: just I wish people would wish we could get past

812
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 1: folks being so upset being called a racist, because it's

813
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: like that's not calling someone racist is not really even

814
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: useful at this point, It's like, how have I entered

815
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: the question? Really? It's like, Okay, I have internalized this.

816
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 1: How can I be accountable for the racism that I

817
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: have now perpetuated? Because we all are racist, We've all

818
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: internalized and that needs to become the conversation instead of this.

819
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: I'm not racist. I'm not. It's just it's not useful

820
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: and it's not true, and it's like we're not getting

821
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 1: anywhere exactly. I'm sorry, I just mbetta rant. I'm totally

822
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 1: with you. Some of the worst experiences I've had in

823
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: my school career and growing up we're black teachers. Black

824
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: teachers have said things to me that stung me to

825
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 1: my soul. And part of the reason why it stung

826
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 1: me so is because I expected something different from them.

827
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: And and again in this study, it wasn't all white teachers,

828
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: you know, it was a combination of teachers. So but

829
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 1: my point is, I don't care who it is. If

830
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 1: if it turns out you have biased, then you can

831
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: get your training and people can help you, and you

832
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: could do all that, but you don't get to go

833
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 1: in front of the kids. And and one last one

834
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 1: last thing I would say, in terms of interrupting some

835
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: of this, we've we've often normalized stress. And that's something

836
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: that I want to say to people that that's taking

837
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: away years of our lives, that level of stress that

838
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: we carry, that we've normalized, and to find those spaces

839
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 1: in the importance of touch and the importance of finding

840
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 1: spaces in our lives to exhale and and to feel

841
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: safe and warm and loved. We've got to be deliberate

842
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 1: about that, especially right now, so much negative stuff coming

843
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: at us, so many things that we're seeing in you know,

844
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 1: on the on the television and you know, YouTube and

845
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 1: everything else. We've got to really be intentional about healing

846
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: and about feeling good and and and recognizing this beauty

847
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: in the world. You know, my grandson when he was little,

848
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: it was I think it was tray Bon that was killed.

849
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: I can't remember who was at the time, but I was.

850
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: I was having a moment and during the time that

851
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: I'm really upset, and I'm talking about the same thing

852
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: we're talking about now, right, keeps coming up and I

853
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: get a little he sends me a text and in

854
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: the text he says, isn't this a pretty lizard? Ema?

855
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:44,760
Speaker 1: They call me Ema, right, and it's a fluorescent green lizard.

856
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: And it stops me by tracks and I'm like, because

857
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: you see, he sees beauty in the world and I

858
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: need him, and so I had to stop and I said,

859
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: you know what, that is a really pretty lizard. And

860
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: we can't forget those moments you know, every and there's

861
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: so much beauty, so many incredible things Black people are

862
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: doing all over the world is definitely here. Miraculous things,

863
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 1: amazing things, and every discipline. Let's showcase that. Let's talk

864
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: about the good so that we don't get so weight down.

865
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: You know, we have to give ourselves spaces to be

866
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: well and to be loved and give love. And what

867
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,280
Speaker 1: my daughter would say to beam loved, to be somebody

868
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: I love that I love to beam love. That is

869
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: what I'm I try to be all about. This is

870
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: a perfect segue into the way I like to end

871
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: every podcast with the question what else is true? And

872
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: it's taken from my own therapy, from the community resiliency

873
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: model and the shift and stay right that if I'm

874
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 1: stressed out or if I'm feeling anxiety and some part

875
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: of my body, um, some part of my body is

876
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: mutual or positive, and can I focus on that thing

877
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 1: that you think that's mutual or positive? That beautiful? You know, lizard,

878
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: So dr joy for you today? What else it is true?

879
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: What helps you get? Oh gosh, I have such optimism

880
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: and such joy associated with what I see around me.

881
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. I see so many beautiful people. I was

882
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 1: so excited to be here with you. Right. This is

883
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: an opportunity to connect with another person that is in

884
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: their lane, that is beaming love and joy and light.

885
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 1: And that's what else is going on. And that's what

886
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try and do. That's my name. My name

887
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: is Joy. I'm gonna try to be Joy. I love it.

888
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: I love it and love it where that's so beautiful?

889
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: Thank you, Dr Joy. Where can folks find you? Are

890
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: you on social media or joy brow dot com, Joy

891
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: Group publications. I'm on Twitter, I'm on Facebook, you know

892
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 1: after join the group. So um, but thank you so much.

893
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,240
Speaker 1: I'm so excited. This is so wonderful. I'm so glad

894
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 1: to know that you're doing this. Thank you and just

895
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: keep doing it. Thank you. Thank you for the work,

896
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: thank you for the continued work. Thank you for beaming

897
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: love today. Post traumatic slave syndrome a set of adaptive

898
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: behaviors that we've unconsciously passed down. I love that she

899
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: sort of organically leaned into the resilience of the history

900
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: of black people in America, that like, through all of

901
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: this trauma, right, all this intergenerational trauma that continues, that

902
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: we found beauty that we found joy. She She says

903
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: in her book that after emancipation, was their therapy was there,

904
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: like you know from you know, formally enslaved people, Did

905
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: they have sessions to like heal all these centuries long traumas. No,

906
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 1: that didn't happen. But we have the information now we

907
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: can do the healing work. Now we can use the

908
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: beauty around us to fortify us, to you know, reset

909
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: our nervous systems and not live in this way that

910
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: it's constantly normalized stress, normalized trauma, normalized maladaption. We can

911
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:35,720
Speaker 1: interrupt those patterns. She does brilliant research that just lays

912
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: out the trauma of it. Right. We have to know,

913
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 1: we have just own this history so that we can

914
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 1: move past it. We can no longer be in denial

915
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: about the history of this country. And then we have

916
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: to go through the pain of acknowledging that truth, and

917
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 1: it's often really uncomfortable, and then we can come up

918
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: on the other side better, stronger, and we got some

919
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 1: work to do, but we can do it with joy.

920
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review,

921
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 1: subscribe and share with everyone you know. Join me next

922
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: week for my conversation with California Surgeon General Dr Nadine VERG.

923
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:32,439
Speaker 1: Harris about ACES adverse childhood experiences, how they affect our health,

924
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 1: and how we can overcome them. You can find me

925
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook

926
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 1: at Laverne Cox for Real. Until next time, stay in

927
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: the love. The Laverne Cox Show is a production of

928
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For

929
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I Heart

930
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your

931
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: favorite show. Us