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Speaker 1: On October twenty first, nineteen fifty nine, four years before

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Speaker 1: the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, an next marine

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Speaker 1: by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald sat alone in

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Speaker 1: a hotel room in Moscow, the heart of the Soviet Union,

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Speaker 1: just weeks shy of his twentieth birthday, Oswald was attempting

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Speaker 1: to renounce his American citizenship and defect to the Soviet Union.

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Speaker 1: After a few days of waiting, he finally received a

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Speaker 1: letter informing him that his request had been denied. A

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Speaker 1: Soviet official was on the way to escort him out

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Speaker 1: of the country. Disturbed by the news, Oswald made a decision.

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Speaker 1: He walked into the bathroom ran himself a bath. As

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Speaker 1: steam filled the room, he got into the tub, grabbed

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Speaker 1: a razor, and proceeded to carefully cut into his wrist.

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Speaker 1: As the bathwater turned red, Oswald closed his eyes and waited.

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Speaker 2: This is who killed jfk Sixty years later? What can

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Speaker 2: we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in American history?

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Speaker 2: And why does it still matter today? I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Solidad O'Brien.

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Speaker 1: In the last episode, we heard about how the Warren

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Speaker 1: Commission had manipulated evidence in order to prove that Lee

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Speaker 1: Harvey Oswald was the lone gun since they claimed that

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Speaker 1: only three shots were fired from behind and one had missed.

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Speaker 1: That left two shots. The third shot was the fatal

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Speaker 1: shot to the President's head. The second shot came to

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Speaker 1: be known as the single bullet theory. The Warren Commission

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Speaker 1: claimed that this magic bullet entered the President's back, went

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Speaker 1: up and out his throat, then hit Connolly in his armpit,

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Speaker 1: then his ribs, then his wrist, and then his thigh.

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Speaker 1: The majority of the Parkland doctors who tended to Kennedy

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Speaker 1: contradicted this. They said that the President's wounds were a

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Speaker 1: result of shots that came from the front, which clearly

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Speaker 1: points to shooters in locations other than the sixth floor

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Speaker 1: of the Texas school Book Depository, and that would mean

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Speaker 1: that whatever Lee Harvey Oswald was doing that day, he

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Speaker 1: wasn't doing it alone.

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Speaker 2: Regardless, the record shows that on September twenty fourth, nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty four, the Warren Commission presented their evidence and formally

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Speaker 2: named Lee Harvey Oswald the lone Gunman, which is the

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Speaker 2: story that persists today right.

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Speaker 1: The Commission painted Oswald as a loaner a mentally ill

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Speaker 1: Soviet empathizer, an ex marine with an agenda. Even before

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Speaker 1: the Warren Commission report was released, the public was fed

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Speaker 1: a steady diet of press stories about Oswald the deranged

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Speaker 1: lone gunman.

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Speaker 3: Less than forty eight hours after the shooting, Dallas District

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Speaker 3: Attorney Henry Wade boasted that he had quote sent men

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Speaker 3: to the electric chair with less evidence. He went even

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Speaker 3: further to say the following about Oswald quote, I would

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Speaker 3: say that without any doubt, he is the killer. There

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Speaker 3: is no question that he was the killer of President Kennedy.

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Speaker 3: And then on December tenth, less than three weeks after

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Speaker 3: the murder, the New York Times headline read quote Oswald

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Speaker 3: assassin beyond a doubt, FBI concludes.

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Speaker 2: And here's where I think it's important to dig into

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Speaker 2: this historic moment. The only other murder of a president

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Speaker 2: that carries a similar historic weight is the murder of

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Speaker 2: President Lincoln, almost one hundred years earlier. But with Lincoln,

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Speaker 2: there were no TV cameras covering moment to moment updates

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Speaker 2: like there were in the Kennedy assassination. There were no

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Speaker 2: kids like Rob Reiner who were sent home from school

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Speaker 2: and then sat glued to their TVs to watch the

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Speaker 2: whole thing unfold. The public wanted answers, and in that vacuum,

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Speaker 2: a story began to unfold.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't until years later, after a great deal

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Speaker 1: of investigating, that a much different story would unfold. And

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Speaker 1: that story starts with the words of Lee Harvey.

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Speaker 4: Oswell, I'm just a pat of President. I'm just a patsy.

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Speaker 2: A patsy is a guy who takes the fall for

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Speaker 2: somebody else's scheme, a person who's manipulated into a position

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Speaker 2: that ultimately leaves them powerless.

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Speaker 4: If you don't.

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Speaker 1: Learn who Lee Harvey Oswell really was, there's no way

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Speaker 1: you can understand what happened on that day.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to understand more about who Oswald was, his child,

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Speaker 2: what motivated him, But kind of like I guess I'm

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Speaker 2: asking for pop psych one oh one on Oswald.

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Speaker 3: Oswald grew up in a broken home.

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Speaker 2: That's Dick Russell.

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Speaker 3: He never knew his father, who had died before he

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Speaker 3: was born in nineteen thirty nine. His mother, Marguerite, placed

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Speaker 3: him at a very young age in New Orleans with

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Speaker 3: his two older brothers, and so he spent time in

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Speaker 3: Foster care when he was very young.

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Speaker 2: Did he stay in New Orleans his entire childhood?

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Speaker 3: He ends up kind of bouncing around with his mother

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Speaker 3: between various places, and when he's thirteen years old, they

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Speaker 3: moved to New York City. Well, according to the official

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Speaker 3: Warren Commission record, he stayed away from school and there

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Speaker 3: were truancy charges that came.

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Speaker 4: Up against him.

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Speaker 3: So in the spring of nineteen fifty three he was

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Speaker 3: remanded to a place called the Youth House in New

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Speaker 3: York for psychiatric observation, and the chief psychiatrist there was

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Speaker 3: a man who would later testify before the Warren Committed.

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Speaker 3: His name was doctor Renatus Hartogs.

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Speaker 5: Hello, doctor Harthogs. Yeah, oh, yes, this is Dick Russell.

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Speaker 5: I'm the writer who called you the other day. So

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Speaker 5: tell me what's on your mind. Okay, I'm as I said.

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Speaker 5: Doing some research.

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Speaker 3: Into the Warrant Commission, a Heartthog said Oswald had a cold,

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Speaker 3: detached outer attitude and viewed his life in sort of

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Speaker 3: a non participating fashion. He had a vivid fantasy life

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Speaker 3: and turning around topics of omnipotence and power. So Heartog

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Speaker 3: said he had diagnosed the teenage Oswald as a kid

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Speaker 3: with personality pattern disturbance, schizoid features, and passive aggressive tendencies.

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Speaker 1: Hearthogs testified that Oswald's psyche was so abnormal that he

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Speaker 1: wanted to continue to examine them, and he did so.

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Speaker 1: He placed the teenage Oswald in a three week study.

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Speaker 1: And here you have the beginning of a narrative that

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Speaker 1: starts to develop.

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Speaker 3: But that narrative, and really everything we hear from Heartthogs

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Speaker 3: has to be understood through the lens of who Heartthogs

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Speaker 3: actually was. So let's look deeper into his past and

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Speaker 3: the people he associated with.

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Speaker 5: Today's my eighty sixth birthday. So today is I'm an

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Speaker 5: happy birthday. I'm an old man. So see, I'd also

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Speaker 5: heard that you didn't you work in the fifties with

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Speaker 5: doctor Malletts. Doctor who Sidney Malletts. No, I didn't know

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Speaker 5: the name.

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Speaker 4: Sounds familiar to me.

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Speaker 5: But he worked at Columbia Presbyterian. Oh no, no, really not.

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Speaker 3: Okay, all right, what Heartogs was telling me was not true.

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Speaker 3: Sydney Malletts, who was a professor of psychology at the time,

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Speaker 3: was under contract for the CIA, and evidence shows that

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Speaker 3: Hertogs worked closely with doctor Malletts on a hypnosis program

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Speaker 3: that was highly classified. Our dogs would tell the Commission

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Speaker 3: that he found Oswald's personality so intriguing that he chose

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Speaker 3: him for a seminar subject.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean by the.

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Speaker 3: CIA was working with troubled kids, finding troubled kids in

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Speaker 3: various places and grooming them in different ways, and they

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Speaker 3: would track them over the years to see if at

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Speaker 3: some point they might be useful. Not too long before

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Speaker 3: he died, I had a long interview with Sidney Gottlieb,

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Speaker 3: who ran the CIA's Technical Services Division from the early

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Speaker 3: fifties into the nineteen seventies. He told me about how

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Speaker 3: the government experimented with LSD after it was introduced to

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Speaker 3: the States in nineteen forty eight, so.

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Speaker 6: It's factly nothing known about it at this time. We

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Speaker 6: decided a group of people and myself that we needed

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Speaker 6: simply to find out a lot about this material in

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Speaker 6: a hurry, and that's what led.

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Speaker 3: Kalpa Mkultra is a code name for an illegal human

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Speaker 3: experimentation program designed by the CIA. The goal was to

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Speaker 3: find a way to control the human mind, and they

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Speaker 3: were experimenting also with so called brainwashing.

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Speaker 6: So it's like most government programs. It took off and

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Speaker 6: it got going, you know, and then it was hard

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Speaker 6: to stop it.

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Speaker 3: They gave LSD to the subjects without their consent, along

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Speaker 3: with electroshocks, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, verbal and sexual abuse,

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Speaker 3: and other forms of torture. I ushed to muse a

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Speaker 3: lot about boy, this is the only place you can

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Speaker 3: do illegal things. Lee on in a way? Is this great?

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Speaker 3: And you got the whole blessings of this puncil gufflement?

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Speaker 2: So are you saying you think Lee Harvey Oswald might

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Speaker 2: have been part of the MK ultra program.

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Speaker 3: There's no way to know for certain, but it seems

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Speaker 3: this was the backdrop against which Oswald and other young

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Speaker 3: people were cultivated.

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Speaker 1: What we know for sure is that Oswald had a

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Speaker 1: troubled past, and after being studied by doctor Hartogs, at

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Speaker 1: age sixteen, he tried to enlist in the Marines. He

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Speaker 1: wanted to serve his country. He was turned down, and

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Speaker 1: then the next year he tried again and this time

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Speaker 1: he got in.

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Speaker 2: Where's he sent?

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Speaker 3: First September of nineteen fifty seven, He's assigned to the

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Speaker 3: Atsugi Naval Air Base just outside Tokyo. In the years

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Speaker 3: after World War Two, Japan became ground zero for Cold

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Speaker 3: War espionage, and at Sugi was the American base in

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Speaker 3: the area. It was a hotbed of activity. There were

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Speaker 3: a number of intelligence groups operating out of Tokyo, including

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Speaker 3: the CIA and a group known as Field Operations Intelligence

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Speaker 3: or FOI. I'll get into FOI later. At Sugi is

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Speaker 3: where U two spyplanes were stationed to fly secret missions

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Speaker 3: over the Soviet Union. Oswald became a radar operator and

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Speaker 3: would certainly have been privy to the fact that these

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Speaker 3: U two planes were flying out of Atsugi and going

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Speaker 3: on these missions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and even though he's just a radar operator, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of a low level guy. Oswald is hanging out

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Speaker 1: at a place called the Queen Bee, which is one

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Speaker 1: of the most expensive exclusive nightclubs in Tokyo.

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Speaker 3: Oswald was earning less than eighty five dollars a month

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Speaker 3: and take home pay. And typically you'd go to the

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Speaker 3: Queen Bee and it would cost you sixty five to

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Speaker 3: one hundred dollars for the night. Oswald he didn't have

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Speaker 3: any of the money to do that. I mean, it

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Speaker 3: was it was basically a night spot that catered to pilots,

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Speaker 3: including the U two officers, not marine privates.

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Speaker 1: So you have this young marine who didn't finish high school,

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Speaker 1: this odd ball loaner, hanging out at an exclusive officers club.

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Speaker 4: What is he doing there?

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Speaker 2: What was he doing there?

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Speaker 1: Well, one night, he's having a good time. I'm he's

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Speaker 1: spending time with a beautiful Japanese woman when he is

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Speaker 1: spotted by an intelligence officer named Richard case Nagel, someone

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Speaker 1: that we're going to hear a lot.

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Speaker 4: About throughout the podcast.

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Speaker 3: I interviewed Nagel throughout the nineteen seventies, eighties, and nineties,

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Speaker 3: and I eventually wrote a book about him called The

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Speaker 3: Man Who Knew Too Much For Now. All you need

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Speaker 3: to know is that in the late fifties he was

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Speaker 3: working for an intelligence group called Field Operations Intelligence, operating

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Speaker 3: out of Tokyo. Nagel told me that both he and

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Speaker 3: Oswald later became part of an operation that tried to

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Speaker 3: convince a Soviet colonel named Nikolai Erashkin to defect to

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Speaker 3: the United States. It was an intelligence priority to try

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Speaker 3: to get high level Soviets to defect, and Oswald was

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Speaker 3: part of this. Were they successful, No, But Oswald was

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Speaker 3: doing more than just trying to meet women at the

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Speaker 3: Queen Bee. His odd tenure in the Marines was just

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Speaker 3: getting started.

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Speaker 4: After a SUGI, didn't he go back to the United

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Speaker 4: States for a little while.

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Speaker 3: He goes home shortly before Christmas on nineteen fifty eight,

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Speaker 3: and he spends a month's leave with his mother and

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Speaker 3: then he reports to Marine Air Control Squadron number nine

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Speaker 3: in Santa Ana, California. The Marines who served with him

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Speaker 3: there said that they often called him Comrade Oswaldkovich because

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Speaker 3: he would you start talking about the wonders of Karl Marx.

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Speaker 3: Another Marine who was stationed with him by named David Bucknell,

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Speaker 3: said that Oswald told him he was going to be

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Speaker 3: discharged and he was going to Russia to go to

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Speaker 3: work on an assignment for American intelligence.

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Speaker 4: And then there's Tosh Plumley.

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Speaker 2: Tosh Plumley worked for the US Army and Military Intelligence

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen fifties. In the sixties he became a

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Speaker 2: CIA operative. He was a mercenary pilot.

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Speaker 7: Nineteen fifty nine was the beginning of NIXA at North Carolina.

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Speaker 7: That was propaganda training operations, illusionary warfare training, and the

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Speaker 7: object there was training us to take over communication sites

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Speaker 7: and a spread propaganda.

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Speaker 4: Was that the first time you met Oswald.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, that's when I first run into Lee.

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Speaker 4: And at that point you knew that you were an

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Speaker 4: operative for the CIA.

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Speaker 7: I knew I was in special ops, but I wasn't

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Speaker 7: sure I knew something something funny was going on. Of course,

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Speaker 7: in those days, you got to take into account that

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Speaker 7: we figured whatever the government told us and whatever military

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Speaker 7: told us, and whatever was printed in the media was

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Speaker 7: gospel truth.

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Speaker 4: Was Oswald part of that.

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Speaker 7: I was under the impression that Lee he was an

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Speaker 7: operative and he was being trained for a specific operation.

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Speaker 7: I was under the impression at that point that this man,

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Speaker 7: this kid that I met my age, was part of

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Speaker 7: the old original recruitment of young teenagers getting in trouble.

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Speaker 3: Now, it wasn't only Plumbley who said this, Victor Marquetti,

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Speaker 3: who was a CIA official who then wrote a very

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Speaker 3: well known book in the nineteen seventies that exposed a

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Speaker 3: lot of things as CIA didn't want out.

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Speaker 2: The book is called The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence.

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Speaker 2: It refers to itself as quote the first book the

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Speaker 2: US government ever went to court to censor before publication.

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Speaker 1: The program in North Carolina was designed to leave the

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Speaker 1: impression that these young, troubled men had become Communist sympathizers

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Speaker 1: to make them appear to be disenchanted with the American system.

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Speaker 2: Marquetti's book alleges that in nineteen fifty nine, the US

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Speaker 2: was struggling to get information out of the Soviet Union,

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Speaker 2: so they ran this operation out of Nag's head on

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Speaker 2: about forty young men.

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Speaker 1: The CIA was trying to gain an advantage against the Soviets.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to have a group of young men under

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Speaker 1: their control to be thought of as read so they

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Speaker 1: cultivated these young men to look like legitimate commune and

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Speaker 1: as sympathizers for potential use in covert operations.

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Speaker 4: And Lee Harvey Oswald was.

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Speaker 7: There primarily he was recruited I think at that point

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Speaker 7: in time to be a defector, disgruntled person to go

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Speaker 7: to Russia. And I think that you too, assignment was

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Speaker 7: a cover in order to get him into Russia.

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Speaker 2: So two different people who knew him and the Marines

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Speaker 2: say the same thing that Oswald was preparing to defect

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Speaker 2: to the USSR as a fake defector. So how exactly

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Speaker 2: does the U two assignment factor into that?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 1: Having information about the United States top secret spy plane

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Speaker 1: establishes him as a potential high value asset to the KGB.

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Speaker 1: Now you combine that with the fact that he's learning Russian,

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Speaker 1: he's preaching Mars, and he appears to be unhappy with America.

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Speaker 1: Oswald then requests a dependency discharge to take care of

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Speaker 1: his mother, where they grant the discharge to him three

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Speaker 1: months ahead of when he's scheduled to be released from

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Speaker 1: the Marines. And what does he do on the day

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Speaker 1: he's discharged from the Marines. Does he go to take

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Speaker 1: care of his mother. No, he picks up a new passport.

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Speaker 2: So he's about to go to Russia, yes, ma'am.

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Speaker 1: On September tenth, nineteen fifty nine, Oswald sails from New

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Speaker 1: Orleans to London and then he catches a flight from

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Speaker 1: London to Helsinki, Finland. After waiting five days for his

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Speaker 1: passport to arrive, he takes a train from Finland to Moscow.

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Speaker 3: When Oswald leaves the US, he's got a bank account

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Speaker 3: that has a little more than two hundred dollars and

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Speaker 3: the trip is going to cost at least fifteen hundred dollars.

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Speaker 2: So is the assumption here that US intelligence is actually

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Speaker 2: secretly footing the bill.

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Speaker 1: Not only footing the bill, but guiding him on where

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Speaker 1: to go, how to cross the border, and he.

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Speaker 4: Seemed to know exactly what route to take.

303
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Speaker 2: According to people like David Talbot, all of this starts

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Speaker 2: to paint a clear picture.

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Speaker 8: He was inserted, I believe as a spy. He was

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Speaker 8: a false de factor. There's actual proof that Oswald was

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Speaker 8: a spy.

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Speaker 5: You were told by people in the Tokyo station that

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Speaker 5: Oswald had been sent to Russia on a CIA mission.

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Speaker 9: When I first heard this, I didn't really believe it,

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Speaker 9: uh huh, And then I started getting curious.

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Speaker 3: Nineteen seventy six, I interviewed CIA officer James Wilcott at

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Speaker 3: the time Oswald was there. He worked in the finance

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Speaker 3: department of the CIA stationed in Tokyo. He issued checks

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Speaker 3: to secret agents, although they were all listed under code

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Speaker 3: names under oath. He told the House Select Committee on

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Speaker 3: Assassinations that he was aware that Oswald was a paid

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Speaker 3: agent for the CIA.

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Speaker 9: I paid out fun for Oswald over some period of

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Speaker 9: time for the Oshald project, and the story I got

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Speaker 9: was that he was sent to the Soviet Union as

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Speaker 9: a double agent.

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Speaker 2: So there are marines saying Oswald told them he was

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Speaker 2: going to be a fake defector and now a CIA accountant,

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Speaker 2: saying he actually paid Oswald if Oswald was employed by

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Speaker 2: the CIA, something they denied for decades. How was that

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Speaker 2: not headline news?

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Speaker 9: The New York Time really really distorted and wanted my

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Speaker 9: testimony that I gave before the House Cooler Committee.

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Speaker 2: The New York Times says that there are quote several

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Speaker 2: discrepancies in the recollections of mister Wilcott. It describes Wilcott

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Speaker 2: as quote support staff, a low level worker. It says

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Speaker 2: he cracked Oswald's code name as a result of hearsay

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Speaker 2: at the agency months after the assassination. It is a

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Speaker 2: brutal write up.

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Speaker 1: The CIA immediately denied Wilcott's accusation, and after his testimony,

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Speaker 1: Wilcott was put under surveillance and harassed. His tires were slashed,

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Speaker 1: sugar was poured into his gas tank. He got a

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Speaker 1: new job, and then his new employer fired him because

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Speaker 1: even he was getting harassed, all to discredit him.

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Speaker 3: The CIA has been doing this kind of stuff for years.

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Speaker 3: People like James Angleton made their way up the CIA

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Speaker 3: organizational chart by mastering the art of disinformation, So discrediting

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Speaker 3: Wilcott was just another flavor of the same manipulation that

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Speaker 3: they used on Oswald.

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Speaker 9: He was just when he excited, he was a fancy.

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Speaker 2: What's Oswald's first move when he gets to Russia.

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Speaker 3: He goes into the American embassy and he throws down

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Speaker 3: his passport and he says, I want to dissolve my

350
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Speaker 3: American citizenship. So he's directed to a man named Richard Snyder,

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Speaker 3: who is a consular official in the embassy who used

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Speaker 3: to work for the CIA.

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Speaker 1: Snyder testified to the Warren Commission that something was off

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Speaker 1: about Oswald.

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Speaker 3: Oswald Hans Snyder a note affirming that his allegiances to

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Speaker 3: the Union of Soviet Socialist republics.

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Speaker 1: Then Oswald makes this very public proclamation that he wanted

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Speaker 1: to defect and that he had top secret information about

359
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Speaker 1: the U two spy plane to offer to the Soviets,

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Speaker 1: And Snyder says, and this is a quote he would

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Speaker 1: make available to the Soviet Union, such knowledge as he

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Speaker 1: had acquired while in the Marine Corps.

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Speaker 4: Concerning his specialty.

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Speaker 3: Snyder said that quote this was part of a scene

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Speaker 3: he had rehearsed before coming into the embassy. It was

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Speaker 3: a pre planned speech. And it wasn't just Snyder who

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Speaker 3: thought it was weird. There was another official there named

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Speaker 3: John McVicker who testified to the Warren Commission that he

369
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Speaker 3: thought Oswald was following a pattern of behavior in which

370
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Speaker 3: he had been tutored by a person or person's unknown.

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Speaker 4: This is a pivotal moment.

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Speaker 1: One of the first things the American public was told

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Speaker 1: about Oswald after the assassination was that he was an

374
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Speaker 1: ex marine that had defected to the Soviet Union. It

375
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Speaker 1: was a huge part of the narrative. The Warren Commission

376
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Speaker 1: said that Oswald defected to the Soviet Union because he

377
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Speaker 1: was a troubled young man. They never reported the fact

378
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Speaker 1: that the CIA had a program to cultivate fake defectors.

379
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Speaker 1: This wasn't known until the Church Committee revealed it in

380
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Speaker 1: the mid seventies.

381
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Speaker 4: So you have two competing narratives.

382
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Speaker 1: One Oswald was interested in becoming a Soviet citizen, was

383
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Speaker 1: willing to betray America and become I'm a trader, Or

384
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Speaker 1: two he was instructed by the CIA as part of

385
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Speaker 1: an intelligence operation.

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Speaker 2: I want to know how the embassy officials Snyder and

387
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Speaker 2: nick Vicker respond to Oswald.

388
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Speaker 3: Snyder tries to talk Oswald out of renouncing a citizenship,

389
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Speaker 3: and then he sends a confidential telegram to the State Department,

390
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Speaker 3: which is forwarded to the CIA.

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Speaker 1: You see, Oswald knows that US intelligence is going to

392
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Speaker 1: be made aware if he starts offering secrets and speaking

393
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Speaker 1: out loud like this to the Soviets.

394
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Speaker 4: He's putting on a show.

395
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Speaker 10: Those reports reached Engleton's office in early November nineteen fifty nine.

396
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Speaker 2: That's Jefferson Morley again, creator of jfkfax dot Org.

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Speaker 10: Angleton opens the CIA's first file in Oswald. He was

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Speaker 10: of interest to the highest counterintelligence officer in the CIA

399
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Speaker 10: for four years before President Kent he was killed.

400
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Speaker 4: Did they track all of his movements during that period? Yes,

401
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 4: they did.

402
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Speaker 10: All of his communications through the State Department were immediately

403
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 10: passed to the CIA.

404
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 5: The FBI and j.

405
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Speaker 10: Edgar Hoover had an interest in Oswald. All of their

406
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Speaker 10: paperwork on Oswald was forwarded to Engleton's people.

407
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Speaker 3: The CIA had this pretty thick file on Oswald. This

408
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Speaker 3: is a fact that the CIA would spend decades denying.

409
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Speaker 3: It was only in nineteen seventy six when one of

410
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Speaker 3: Angleton's staff members revealed to the House Committee that she

411
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Speaker 3: was instructed to open a file on Oswald.

412
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Speaker 1: They were watching him for four years before the assassination,

413
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Speaker 1: and there can only be two reasons for this. Either

414
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Speaker 1: he was in the Soviet Union on a mission or

415
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Speaker 1: he was a bona fide defector that had offered to

416
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Speaker 1: give the Soviet top secret information.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, the Russians suspect something is going on with this.

418
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Speaker 3: The Russian authorities tell him your visa has expired and

419
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Speaker 3: you've got to leave Moscow right away.

420
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Speaker 4: So what does he do.

421
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Speaker 1: He goes into his hotel room and he fakes a

422
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Speaker 1: suicide attempt and creates an incident.

423
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Speaker 2: You think he faked his suicide in order to force

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Speaker 2: the Soviets to keep him there.

425
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Speaker 5: I do.

426
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Speaker 1: He's a low level marine on assignment and he just failed.

427
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Speaker 1: He's got to do something drastic in order to stay

428
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Speaker 1: in the country.

429
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Speaker 3: They rush him into a psychiatric hospital for observation and

430
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Speaker 3: he stays there for a week. I was told that

431
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Speaker 3: the KGB thought that he fit the profile for psychologically

432
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Speaker 3: conditioned agents. They decided to study him further so he

433
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Speaker 3: didn't have to leave.

434
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Speaker 4: And they say, all right, you can stay and we'll

435
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 4: just keep an eye on you because they don't want

436
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 4: this international incident to be on their watch.

437
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 3: And then he drops out of sight in December, and

438
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Speaker 3: nobody in the US here's from him for over a year,

439
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 3: which starts to raise concerns for a certain person. Oswald's mother, Marguerite,

440
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 3: goes to see Dean Rusk, the Secretary of State in

441
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Speaker 3: the US. Somehow gets in to see him. This is

442
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 3: all on record too, and shouts that her son was

443
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 3: a government agent. And how comes she hasn't heard from

444
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 3: him in almost a year.

445
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: How does Oswald's mom just get in to see Dean Rusk?

446
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 3: Like Marv Williams, I've wondered that too.

447
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 2: Who gets access to Rusk like that? Does Rusk do anything?

448
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 2: Does Oswald know about this?

449
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 3: Word gets back to him somehow in the Soviet Union

450
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 3: that mom is worried about it. Two days later, Oswald

451
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 3: writes her a letter.

452
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: As it turns out, he was living pretty comfortably in

453
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union for the last year by Communist standards.

454
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 3: Anyway, they sent him to Minsk, a whole different part

455
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 3: of the Soviet Union, where he's greeted by the mayor personally,

456
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 3: and they promise him a free apartment while he works

457
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 3: at a radio TV factory where he earns as much

458
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 3: money as the director.

459
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: In Minsk, he meets a teenager named Marina. Her uncle

460
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: is a colonel in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, which

461
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: is basically the Soviet version of the FBI. They work

462
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: closely with the KGB.

463
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: So wait a minute, her uncle is a colonel in

464
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 2: their FBI. That's the girl that Oswald just happens to meet.

465
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 3: He meets Marina at this dance. He introduces himself as Alec.

466
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: She thinks he's a Russian citizen because he speaks Russian

467
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 3: so well.

468
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 4: It is suspected that Marina's uncle encouraged her to go

469
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 4: to the dance that night.

470
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 2: Here's journalist David Talbot again.

471
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 8: That was basically an espionage operation. It was a way

472
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 8: to keep tabs on him. So I think the Soviet

473
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 8: authorities were onto him right away and watch him very carefully.

474
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 3: After only a few weeks of knowing Marina, he proposes

475
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 3: to her.

476
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: So now Oswald finds himself married into the network of

477
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 2: the KGB.

478
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 4: And all while the CIA is watching him.

479
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 2: So with all these interests converging on him, this guy's

480
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 2: got some baggage.

481
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 4: Which is why his next move is pretty shocking.

482
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 3: He writes to the American Embassy asking for arrangements to

483
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 3: be made for him to return to the United States

484
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 3: with Marina.

485
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 2: Isn't it weird that he's coming back to the US,

486
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: given that he defected and denounced the US, I asked

487
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: David Talbot, So what happened when he left the Soviet Union?

488
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 8: He came home to the US with great ease. He

489
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 8: was not molested by the authorities when he came here.

490
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 8: In fact, he was given a loan by the State

491
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 8: Department to come back from Russia.

492
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: Wait, they gave him money.

493
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: The I S even offered Marina an exemption from the

494
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: standard immigration quotas, so she came with him, along with

495
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: their baby daughter June.

496
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 3: Well, they never asked him anything about, you know, but

497
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 3: what he might have been involved in over there, or

498
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 3: did he give secrets away? What about the U two?

499
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 3: None of these things came up.

500
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 8: Anyone who claimed to be a defector said he was

501
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 8: going to give military secrets to the Union height of

502
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 8: the Cold War would have been clamped in irons unless

503
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 8: they knew he was an espionage agent.

504
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: All right, So Rob, I'm going to need you to

505
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: speak very slowly and very clearly, what the hell is

506
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: going on?

507
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 4: I'll try to make it as simple as that can.

508
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: First, as a misfit kid, he's welcomed into the Marines,

509
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: and then he shipped to Japan, where he gets a

510
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: security clearance to be a radar plane operator on the

511
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: U two spy plane. He learns Russian. He defects to Russia.

512
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: Then after two years, he turns to the US with

513
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: his Russian wife and is welcomed with open arms. The

514
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: obvious explanation this is all done on behalf of the CIA,

515
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: and in less.

516
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 2: Than eighteen months of his return to the United States,

517
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 2: he'll take a job at the Texas school Book Depository

518
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: in Dallas, Texas.

519
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 4: Right, But a lot would happen in those eighteen months.

520
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 2: On the next episode of Who Killed JFK? We uncover

521
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 2: secrets in a place known as the Wilderness of Mirrors.

522
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 2: What does sheep dipping mean?

523
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:42,239
Speaker 3: It's somebody who is inserted into an operation to make

524
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 3: it look like they're part of it, but they may

525
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 3: not even know why what's happened to them.

526
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,719
Speaker 2: We follow Oswald through the eyes of those who are

527
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: watching him, Like Richard K. S Nagel.

528
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 3: He tried to warn Oswald that he was being used

529
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 3: that people he thinks or his friends are not.

530
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 7: By sure Ecient struggled on the fact that it was

531
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 7: an assassination.

532
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 4: Sits a plan, and because of that knowledge he was in.

533
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: Jeffardy Who Killed JFK is hosted by Rob Reiner and

534
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 2: Me Solidad O'Brien and Our executive producers are Rob Reiner,

535
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: Michelle Reiner, Matt George, Jason English, David Hoffman, and me

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00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,719
Speaker 2: Solidad O'Brien. Our writer is David Hoffman, with research by

537
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 2: Dick Russell. Our story editors are Rob Reiner and Julie Pinneto.

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00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Julie Pinneto. Our producers are Tristan Nash,

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00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 2: Dick Russell, Michelle Goldfein, and Amari Lee. Our editors are

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00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: Tristan Nash, Julie Pinneto, and Marcus de Laudo. Our project

541
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 2: manager is Carol Klein. Archival audio in this episode thanks

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00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: to Getty Images Dick Russell and Rob Reiner. Our associate

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00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 2: producer is emilse Kios. Sing mastering and sound design by

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00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 2: Ben la Julier, Music by APM, Research and fact checking

545
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 2: by Girl Friday and emilse Kiros. Business affairs by Hennan

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00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 2: Nadea and Jonathan Furman. Our consulting producer is Razanne Gallillini.

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00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 2: Record it in part at CDM Studio and Fourth Street

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00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 2: Recording Studio. Show logo by Lucy Quintanilla. Production assistants by

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00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: Rocco Deel Prior and Grace Barron. Special thanks to Johenig

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00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: rose Arse and Dan Storper. If you're enjoying the show,

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00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform.

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00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 2: Who Killed JFK as a production of Solidad O'Brien Productions

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