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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a squat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lied to you. If you think.

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Speaker 2: That one person has all the answers, don't welcome to

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Speaker 2: trust Me. The podcast about cult, extreme belief and manipulation

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Speaker 2: from two Christian rock band groupies who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: A Lola Blanc and I'm making Elizabeth and Today's part

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Speaker 2: two of our interview with Caleb Ward, my friend and

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Speaker 2: former evangelical Christian and pastor's son. So Caleb wasn't in

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Speaker 2: a strict cult per se, as you might have learned

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Speaker 2: last week, but talking to him offers a window into

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Speaker 2: evangelical culture in the early two thousands that we thought

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Speaker 2: would be relatable for many of our listeners. This week,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about some of the cultural touchstones

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Speaker 2: of his youth, including heritage USA, which was basically Disneyland

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Speaker 2: for Christians and Christian rock bands, plus his fear of

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Speaker 2: losing his virginity before marriage and what hell meant to

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Speaker 2: each of us growing up.

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Speaker 5: We'll talk more about how healthy church leadership can exist

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Speaker 5: and how his dad was an example of that, how

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Speaker 5: his parents were ostracized when they left the church, and

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Speaker 5: what solidified his decision to leave Evangelical Christianity.

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Speaker 2: Meghan is a little sick today.

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Speaker 6: I am. Can you tell? Can you tell?

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Speaker 2: Don't worry? She's not sick in the interview itself.

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Speaker 5: No, no, my voice will only be like those for

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Speaker 5: a few more seconds, friends, I.

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Speaker 2: Promise, all right. Well before we get into it with Caleb,

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Speaker 2: who is a delight, it's a nice break from some

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Speaker 2: of the very dark things happening in our country and

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Speaker 2: world at the moment. Megan, are you able to verbalize

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Speaker 2: your culturest thing of the week?

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Speaker 5: Mine's very current. It takes us back to nineteen seventy seven.

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Speaker 7: Oh okay, So in my like nightquill induced fever fever dream,

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Speaker 7: I watched this entire Netflix Son of Sam documentary Have

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Speaker 7: you seen this yet?

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Speaker 2: No? Tell me?

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Speaker 7: So?

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Speaker 5: It was just following those this horrific serial killer in

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Speaker 5: New York City in the seventies and then connected it

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Speaker 5: all to this cult called the Process that was also

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Speaker 5: operating near where Charles Manson was located. And the kind

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Speaker 5: of takeaway is that it might have had branches into

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Speaker 5: all of these offshoot killing spree people. So interesting watch,

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Speaker 5: really really violent and disgusting. All of them were like

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Speaker 5: obsessed with killing dogs, and now the Process has become

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Speaker 5: a dog rescue, which.

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Speaker 6: I'm so confused about. Whoa.

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Speaker 5: So you know, it's a dark little place that I

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Speaker 5: wouldn't recommend unless you happen to be of Nike Will.

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Speaker 6: But it is very.

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Speaker 5: Interesting and I should probably watch it again because I

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Speaker 5: don't fully remember it, but I did take notes and

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Speaker 5: that's and that's what happened. So uh yeah.

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Speaker 2: I want your Nike Will induced cultius thing every week,

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Speaker 2: like sort of the vague impressions of things.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but you guys, that's really scary, So you know,

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Speaker 5: make a.

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Speaker 6: Note of that for dinner conversations. What about you? What

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Speaker 6: about you, lolo? What's your cultist thing?

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Speaker 2: Well, as always, it's the country, but the news, the news,

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Speaker 2: the news, the news. I'm I'm gonna not talk too

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Speaker 2: much about it.

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Speaker 6: This week.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to restrain myself from being two dooms day

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Speaker 2: every single week, but it's pretty bad. What I will

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Speaker 2: talk about is an article that came out actually last

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Speaker 2: year about a study that came out that showed that

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Speaker 2: half of the Americans don't know the difference between a

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Speaker 2: fact and an opinion. What so there was the person

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Speaker 2: who wrote this article teaches a class called Assumptions Challenge,

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Speaker 2: and they you know, he's talking about how he assumed

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Speaker 2: that his students would know the difference. But researchers at

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Speaker 2: the University of Illinois, Orbana Champagne am I saying that right,

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Speaker 2: asked participants to categorize twelve statements about current events as

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Speaker 2: facts or opinions. Forty five point seven percent could do

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Speaker 2: that correctly, no more than half the time. So it's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, a fact would be like there are four

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Speaker 2: hundred and seventy five people living in this town, and

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Speaker 2: an opinion would be.

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Speaker 6: Warm weathers better than cold, yes.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And obviously, like in our current media landscape, it

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Speaker 2: can make it very difficult because people are sort of

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Speaker 2: they can present the same information in a completely different

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Speaker 2: way and make it sound like a fact. So I

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Speaker 2: do understand why that would be difficult for people right now,

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Speaker 2: especially when so much much of our information comes from

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Speaker 2: social media, and then the distrust has been sown in,

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Speaker 2: you know, sort of like legacy media, and oftentimes for

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Speaker 2: a good reason, so it can be really hard to navigate.

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Speaker 2: But half of Americans not knowing, like the difference between

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Speaker 2: a fact statement and an opinion statement is really staggering.

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Speaker 2: I thought, yeah, it's interesting. I I it makes sense

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Speaker 2: to me that we are where we are. But I

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Speaker 2: don't even really know what my takeaway is other than

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Speaker 2: that this feels like something that's really important to me

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Speaker 2: to talk about and try to help spread awareness about,

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Speaker 2: like how language can create bias in our minds and

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Speaker 2: how it's so important to look underneath that and like

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Speaker 2: look at the actions themselves instead of just what people

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Speaker 2: are saying about it, and you know, go to the

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Speaker 2: source material and see what it is. We should probably

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Speaker 2: just do another episode on.

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Speaker 6: And it sounds like an episode.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so I like interrupted your facts and just said

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Speaker 5: cold is no?

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Speaker 2: That was good? That was good? That was how full

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Speaker 2: I was blanking. So yeah, anyway, so that's my takeaway,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's probably time to have some more

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Speaker 2: experts on the show because it's been a minute and

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Speaker 2: there's so much to navigate right now can be so challenging,

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Speaker 2: and that's my cultis thing perfect.

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Speaker 6: Well, shall we talk to Caleb.

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Speaker 2: Let's do it. I can't lie. I like having a

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Speaker 2: few select, high quality things in my life, but that

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean I can always pay the luxury prices that

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Speaker 2: come with them. So Quints is where I go when

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Speaker 2: I want luxury essentials that I can actually afford.

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Speaker 5: Quince offers a range of high quality items of prices

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Speaker 5: within reach, like one percent Mongolian cashmir sweaters from fifty dollars,

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Speaker 5: washable silk tops and dresses, organic cotton sweaters, and fourteen

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Speaker 5: carrot gold jewelry.

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Speaker 2: The best part, all Quinn's items are priced fifty to

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Speaker 2: eighty percent less than similar brands.

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Speaker 5: By partnering directly with top factories, Quints cuts out the

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Speaker 5: mental man and passes the savings onto us.

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Speaker 2: Only works with factories that you save, ethical and responsible

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Speaker 2: manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes, which I love.

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Speaker 5: I personally got a leather bound passport holder with a

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Speaker 5: matching luggage tag that makes me feel like I am traveling.

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Speaker 6: First class wherever I go.

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Speaker 5: They're so soft, gorgeous, and a fraction of the price

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Speaker 5: of other brands.

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Speaker 2: Give yourself the luxury you deserve with Quints. Go to

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Speaker 2: quins dot com slash trust for free shipping on your

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Speaker 2: One of the things you kind of mentioned when we

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Speaker 2: talked prior to today was how you would get these

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Speaker 2: strong feelings in church and around church, and I like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know how you couldn't given how heightened these

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Speaker 2: rituals are. How do you think that shaped your young mind?

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Speaker 8: Well, like I was saying, if it's very performative at

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Speaker 8: times and like very theatrical, which is why I think

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Speaker 8: I like leaned into the arts, and like I did

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Speaker 8: a lot of like musicals and plays, just like performance

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Speaker 8: was like just felt like every day right that heightened state.

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Speaker 8: Like I had a really interesting situation when I was

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Speaker 8: in college and I like went to a concert. I

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Speaker 8: couldn't tell you who I was seeing.

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Speaker 6: It was probably no.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 8: This was after after I wish I had have seen

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Speaker 8: Jars of Clay. They were bangers. Jars of Clay, ohc

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Speaker 8: Super Tones, Newsboys. Oh I could keep going GC talk.

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Speaker 8: Uh oh yeah, I have to talk about Creation Fest

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Speaker 8: at some point too.

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Speaker 3: Yes, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That just like that brought

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Speaker 3: back a flood of memories.

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Speaker 8: I but to answer your question, like, it's, uh, it's

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Speaker 8: such a streaming because like I can like take myself

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Speaker 8: there like mentally, like I can find myself back in

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Speaker 8: that place of like it feeling so real at the time,

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Speaker 8: like like people laying hands on me, like speaking in

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Speaker 8: tongues like I would speak in tongues, you know, hearing

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Speaker 8: a prophetic word over me, playing drums and like really

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Speaker 8: feeling the emotion. But it's like that's it's performance, it's music,

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Speaker 8: it's emotion. Like that, it just felt like a trick.

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Speaker 8: When I finally look back on it, I was like

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Speaker 8: I was like tricking myself or I was being tricked.

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Speaker 8: It felt like like I was being sort of like

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Speaker 8: manipulated in some way to feel a certain way. And like, yeah,

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Speaker 8: there were some like youth pastors or other pastors would

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Speaker 8: really like push you into it, like you've gotta feel

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Speaker 8: this and you're gonna feel this. And like I saw

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Speaker 8: that happen to so many people who eventually like left

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Speaker 8: the church, I think because they just probably started to

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Speaker 8: feel almost like.

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Speaker 3: Bullied in some way, right, you know.

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Speaker 8: That was a big thing which I mentioned at the top,

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Speaker 8: is like when people would leave, like they would just

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Speaker 8: disappear basically, you know, like it was like they had

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Speaker 8: died and like we didn't speak to them, and how

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Speaker 8: they left or they're off the path or they're off

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Speaker 8: the path.

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Speaker 2: You know. I mean I've talked about this on here before.

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Speaker 2: You know, in Mormonism, you know, you feel the spirit

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Speaker 2: and you're supposed to bear your testimony, which is a

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Speaker 2: much quieter version of what you're talking about, because it's this,

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Speaker 2: it's I'd like to bear my testimony that I know

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Speaker 2: this church is true, and I know Joseph Smith was

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Speaker 2: a real prophet or was a prophet? Is the prophet?

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Speaker 2: I don't fucking know. I don't remember now. And you know,

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Speaker 2: people would start crying and I went to e f Y,

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Speaker 2: which is like teenager camp for Mormons, and all these

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Speaker 2: kids would be going up and crying, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: what is.

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Speaker 3: Wrong with you? They're like why am I not feeling this?

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Speaker 2: Yes? And I like and I have to imagine the

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Speaker 2: people who were more prone to crying probably are more

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Speaker 2: prone to crying at concerts too, or in TV shows.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: That's what That's what I was trying to say.

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Speaker 8: It was like I went to a concert in college

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Speaker 8: and like became very emotional, and I was like, that's

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Speaker 8: what this is, right, And like when I really cracked

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Speaker 8: that code, I was like, oh my god, that's all

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Speaker 8: this is.

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Speaker 3: It's just like it's like I.

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Speaker 8: Just love music, like yeah, yeah, just like feel like

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Speaker 8: or like this sort of like herd mentality like can

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Speaker 8: really suck you in. Like if you start crying and

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Speaker 8: you start crying, like I'm probably gonna start crying, just

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Speaker 8: just the.

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Speaker 3: Way people yes, yes, yeah.

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Speaker 6: You know scene ever where they.

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Speaker 3: Just yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 8: It's so easy to like get caught up in that

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Speaker 8: because if you're like even like remotely tapped into like

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Speaker 8: your emotional self and like your emotional well being, I

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Speaker 8: think it's really easy to.

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Speaker 3: Get caught up in that.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, And that just like cracking that code because like

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Speaker 8: even now, like my wife and I were back home

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Speaker 8: for Christmas in Florida and my grandmother, who is ninety,

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Speaker 8: really wanted to take us to her churches. Whire's way

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Speaker 8: more traditional like Baptists, very very Southern Baptist, just like

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Speaker 8: you know, simple like not speaking and talking about that.

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Speaker 8: She wants us to go see her Christmas light show,

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Speaker 8: Like they had this crazy Christmas light show on the

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Speaker 8: outside of the building that would.

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Speaker 3: Like run every hour on the hour.

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Speaker 8: Well, and I went and like I kind of had

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Speaker 8: a moment where like I felt like very emotional. It's

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Speaker 8: just sort of like hearing all these like words over

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Speaker 8: and over again, or like hearing the story of like Jesus,

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Speaker 8: like it just like taps into something that like is

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Speaker 8: still like locked away somewhere deep in my psyche.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things that I think is so

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Speaker 2: important for I wish more of society understood was that

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Speaker 2: any basically any group in any church can create a

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Speaker 2: heightened emotional experience in you. And having a heightened emotional

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Speaker 2: experience is not equal to the teachings being true or

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Speaker 2: the leader being the real prophet, absolutely, because there are

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Speaker 2: a million ways to produce that state.

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Speaker 1: And I went on to a Tony Robbins seminar and

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Speaker 1: walked across Hot coals because everybody was shouting the same

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Speaker 1: word altogether.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, of course that'd make you feel. I was like,

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Speaker 2: like something insane is happening.

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Speaker 6: Right across the coles. Yeah, wow, God is not that

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Speaker 6: is not doing that?

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Speaker 3: That's worse. I always thought that Tony Robbins hot coal

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Speaker 3: thing was a rumor. I didn't realize it was.

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Speaker 6: It was real. It was real.

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Speaker 2: And how were your feet after?

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Speaker 1: I was totally fine. But the woman behind me got

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Speaker 1: like burnt a little. They had an ambulance what yeah, yeah, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: you can like actually get very burnt.

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Speaker 3: But well they're hot cold.

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Speaker 6: But I do think you can get your mind into

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Speaker 6: a state.

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Speaker 8: Yeah that well that's a very that's a that's a

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Speaker 8: very old yeah, like tradition or spoken Yeah. I don't

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Speaker 8: know where it comes from, but like that's something I

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Speaker 8: feel like. It's essentially it's like endurance and it's sort

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Speaker 8: of like building your body.

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Speaker 2: Flame and it's really fast.

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Speaker 3: You're not going to get like you think if.

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Speaker 8: I grab a hot pot really quickly, like I'm probably

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Speaker 8: not going to get thirders.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, this was this was a long walk. This was

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Speaker 6: a long little walk. But the chanting and.

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Speaker 1: The eighteen hour day of him screaming at us really

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Speaker 1: had wow, had me ready to go out?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: And for some groups it's like meditation for hours, and

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Speaker 2: for some groups it's like your group whorreth. This is

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Speaker 2: very outward, very you know, loud sort of worship, and

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Speaker 2: it takes many different forms, but I think the common

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Speaker 2: denominator is that like members are like, well, I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: feel this strongly if it wasn't true, and it's like no,

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Speaker 2: I mean, you could feel this strongly pretty much anywhere.

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Speaker 2: When we had a guest on who you know, was

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Speaker 2: like a one direction stand. Fans will experience the same

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Speaker 2: thing in that the.

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Speaker 8: Same thing with like girls crying when the Beatles showed up. Right,

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Speaker 8: it's the same thing, right.

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Speaker 2: You know, And I think that can be really hard,

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Speaker 2: hard pill to swallow because it's so you know, you

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Speaker 2: want there to be magic in life. And I don't

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Speaker 2: know about you, but for me, like after I found

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Speaker 2: out that my profit was not a real profit and

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Speaker 2: was just a con man, I had believed that I

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Speaker 2: was special and like life had this very like big importance,

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Speaker 2: you know, because I was like one of the chosen,

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Speaker 2: one of literally like the two chosen people on the planet.

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Speaker 2: So after sort of exiting that, life just seemed so

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Speaker 2: much more boring, and I was like, wait, but that's

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Speaker 2: but that was, but that was more exciting.

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Speaker 8: Hard to reckon with the idea that you're not special

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Speaker 8: or this thing that you've been told for your entire

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Speaker 8: life might be a croc or might be based in

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Speaker 8: uh selfishness or you know, foolish desires. Like that's really

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Speaker 8: hard to reckon with, you know, because it's like it's

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Speaker 8: your life, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and I mean I think that's one

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Speaker 2: of the reasons I turned to entertainment because I was like, no,

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Speaker 2: I will be special, going to be up the pop star.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, it's good that you leaned into an industry that's

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Speaker 8: incredibly stable and really respects you and your identity on.

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Speaker 2: The chaos, It's yeah, I don't know that. That was

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Speaker 2: one of the things about your story that sort of

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Speaker 2: stuck with me the most because it wasn't just the services. Also,

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Speaker 2: like you were going to Heritage USA, which is Disneyland

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Speaker 2: for Christians.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was going to say that me being like

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Speaker 1: a little bit on the spectrum I think protected me

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Speaker 1: sometimes from things I think me being spectrumy protected me

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Speaker 1: from a lot of the things that y'all are talking about,

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Speaker 1: because I never really I know when other people are

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Speaker 1: feeling emotion.

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Speaker 6: I feel very strong emotion.

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Speaker 1: I'm very sensitive, but not necessarily when I'm supposed to,

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Speaker 1: And if other people around me are feeling something, I

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Speaker 1: almost like am like, oh I don't want to feel it.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, Well, I mean I wasn't feeling what they

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Speaker 2: were feeling. I just felt the pressure to fit in,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't actually understand it.

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Speaker 6: I don't know how to explain that.

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Speaker 8: Maybe I'm that like it's almost like, okay, the only

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Speaker 8: way I can describe it. Maybe you've experienced this is like,

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Speaker 8: have you ever been at a like a restaurant with

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Speaker 8: like ten people and you're talking to like one person

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Speaker 8: and eight other people are talking about something, and all

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Speaker 8: of a sudden they burst into laughter.

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Speaker 3: Right, and you didn't hear it. It's almost like jarring.

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Speaker 8: It like will like hurt my ears, and it like

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Speaker 8: scares me because it's like I'm not a part of

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Speaker 8: the thing, right.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, No, that's a good point. Yeah, Okay, I feel

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Speaker 6: that a lot.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and they.

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Speaker 6: Like double down on it.

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Speaker 1: Not being funny and look at them and I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's not it's not that like I'm not a part

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Speaker 1: of the joke.

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Speaker 8: It's like I didn't see that. It's like somebody like

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Speaker 8: blaring an airhorn on your face.

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Speaker 2: Well, I also just hate when people make noise, so that.

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Speaker 6: Everybody be quiet, no.

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Speaker 8: One emote in any capacity towards Lola.

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Speaker 2: Okay, it'll be much better this way. Trust Me is

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Speaker 2: sponsored by Better Help.

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Speaker 5: We talk a lot about red flags on this show,

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00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,440
Speaker 5: but what if we focus more on looking for green

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Speaker 5: flags and friends and partners.

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Speaker 2: If you're not sure what they look like, therapy can

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00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,080
Speaker 2: help you identify green flags, actively practice them in your relationships,

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Speaker 2: and embody the green flag energy yourself.

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Speaker 5: Whether you're dating, married, building a friendship, or just working

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00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,560
Speaker 5: on yourself, it's time to form relationships that love you back.

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Speaker 2: I love therapy because it can help me get perspective

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00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,240
Speaker 2: outside of myself so I don't get stuck in the

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00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:24,920
Speaker 2: same patterns over and over again.

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Speaker 5: Remember a therapy is not just for those who've experienced trauma,

380
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:29,800
Speaker 5: though it's great for that too.

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00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 2: It's helpful for learning positive coping skills, setting boundaries, and

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00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,280
Speaker 2: navigating the red and Green flags.

383
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Speaker 5: Better Help is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient,

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Speaker 9: new opportunities. And for a lot of you out there,

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Speaker 2: Tell us about Yeah, hair did USA and the Creationfest.

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Speaker 3: It's a real thing. So Jim and Tammy Faye Baker Uh.

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Speaker 8: Yes, are they both okay? Yeah? I really love the

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00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 8: eyes of Tammy Fay. I loved the Michael Schowalastine. I

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00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,359
Speaker 8: feel like it like and they talk a lot about

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Speaker 8: here did u sa in that there's a section that's

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Speaker 8: sort of all about it, So if you want to

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Speaker 8: kind of like get an idea of what it looked like,

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Speaker 8: it was basically, yeah, like Disneyland for Christians. It was

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Speaker 8: a hotel, it was a shopping complex, it was a

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Speaker 8: conference center. It was a water park. There was a

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Speaker 8: castle that was like an arcade. It's gone now, it's

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Speaker 8: like not even like the like there's no rubble. I

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Speaker 8: think it's like a parking lot.

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Speaker 3: I don't even know.

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Speaker 8: It was on the board of North and South Carolina

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Speaker 8: and it was basically like this center where like we

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Speaker 8: would come and go to go to conferences or like

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Speaker 8: youth trips or things like that, and we mostly went

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Speaker 8: when we were in Baltimore because it was it was

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Speaker 8: closed down in the nineties for I think, like tax fraud.

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Speaker 8: And they talked a lot about how there's an article

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Speaker 8: online you can read like somebody used to work there

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Speaker 8: that like they went back like a few months later,

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Speaker 8: and it looked like everybody had been like raptured. Like

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Speaker 8: it was like sandwiches were half eaten, like chairs were pulled.

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Speaker 3: Out, but it was like everybody.

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Speaker 8: It was like somebody walked in one day and went

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Speaker 8: like okay, everybody out, and like that was a beautiful.

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Speaker 6: And ire ironic ending.

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Speaker 8: So this was a place we would go, we would

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Speaker 8: take like youth trips, like this is something I went

445
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 8: to when I was when I was very little. Obviously

446
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 8: this was born in ninety one, and it was this

447
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 8: place where like it was just like this like haven

448
00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:01,360
Speaker 8: for people sort of in that like evangelical mentality where

449
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 8: they would come and see like famous you know pastors

450
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 8: come and preach, you know, like nowadays, it would be

451
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 8: like the Joel Osteins of the world, you know, or

452
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 8: like TD Jakes, or you'd go see Kirk Franklin perform.

453
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 8: You know, a lot of these guys who are like

454
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 8: these mega church you know, influencers. That's a whole other

455
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,639
Speaker 8: can of worms. And it was so wild. But like

456
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 8: I went back when I was in college. I was

457
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 8: dating a girl who grew up in Charlotte, and like

458
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,439
Speaker 8: we went there for like Thanksgiving, I think, and I

459
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:35,880
Speaker 8: was like.

460
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 3: I had completely forgottenbout her to USA.

461
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 8: I'd like buried it like in my psyche somewhere, and

462
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 8: we went that. She was like, oh, you got to

463
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 8: see this abandoned amusement park and I was like, oh, sick.

464
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 3: That sounds awesome, like a band of music park.

465
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 8: She's like, yeah, it's right on the border, like it's

466
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:53,880
Speaker 8: all fenced up, but we gotta go and like check

467
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 8: it out.

468
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 3: And I was like cool.

469
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,120
Speaker 8: And I went and it was like like somebody had

470
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,119
Speaker 8: like plugged a USB in my head. That was like

471
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 8: here's all those memories and it was like I've been

472
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 8: here before Oh my god, this is the castle, and

473
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 8: there's the water park, and there's the center, and like

474
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,160
Speaker 8: there's the the atrium where the Amphitheater was where people

475
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 8: would put on like passion plays and things like that.

476
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 8: It was insane and it's just this decrepit old building.

477
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 8: I think they demolished it like six months later, so

478
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 8: I got to see it like right before. It's crazy.

479
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 8: You can find it on YouTube, like there's like there's

480
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 8: like old seminar videos and you can kind of like

481
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 8: tour through.

482
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 3: There's like an ad for it.

483
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 2: It's it's wild, but it was a it was a

484
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 2: theme park for Christians.

485
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 8: It was all based in Christianity. It was all based

486
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 8: in like evangelical Christianity. So it was like a safe

487
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 8: place to come as a Christian where you don't have

488
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 8: to deal with all those like worldly trappings of Disney

489
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 8: World or King's Dominion or Universal Studio.

490
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 6: I think was there a mouse of any sort?

491
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: Was there?

492
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 8: I don't think they had a man. I don't remember

493
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 8: if they had a mascot.

494
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 3: I bet they did. Think it was.

495
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 1: Walking around and like Mary's walking around or would that

496
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 1: be now?

497
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 8: I do remember I do remember seeing like there were

498
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 8: people like dressed as wise men and shepherds and things

499
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 8: like that that would look kind of like wander around.

500
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 8: I do remember that. Yeah, I put your picture with you.

501
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 1: Know, I'm not like see a guy on a day,

502
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: I'm a wise man at heritage.

503
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 8: Well there is there is still an experience called the

504
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 8: Holy Land Experience that's in Orlando, Florida, and it is

505
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 8: essentially as though you have stepped into Jerusalem. Whoa, yeah,

506
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 8: I can't imagine what the vibe is like there right now.

507
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 2: Yah.

508
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was gonna talk about Creation Fest.

509
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, to tell his creation pest.

510
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 8: So okay, So creation Fest I have so many more

511
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 8: memories of because this is something I did as like

512
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 8: a teenager. Creation Fest. It's still around, oh god, but yeah,

513
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 8: I think it's a lot smaller now, but it was.

514
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 8: It took place in Pennsylvania on a farm in Pennsylvania.

515
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 8: It started in the eighties and it was a three

516
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 8: or four four day music festival and there were like

517
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 8: three stages and like the Newsboys and switch Foot and

518
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 8: DC Talk and.

519
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm trying to remember all the other bands.

520
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 8: There was a the main stage and then there was

521
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 8: the fringe stage, and like the fringe stages where like

522
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 8: Pod played, you know, and like Family Force five do

523
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 8: not look them up, good lord.

524
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 3: Oh god. It's like techno rock. Uh yeah and uh and.

525
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 8: Like it was like this three four day festival where

526
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 8: like you know, young people would call it was like

527
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 8: all youth groups from like all over all over the world.

528
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 8: Really was hundreds of thousands of people would come to

529
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 8: this place. There was an incredible essay called Upon This

530
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 8: Rock written by John Jeremiah Sullivan. It's in a book

531
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 8: of essays called Pulped. He's an incredible essayist. He has

532
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 8: written a lot for like GQ, and he wrote a

533
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 8: book or he wrote an essay called Upon This Rock

534
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 8: that is about him going to Creation Fest and like

535
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 8: getting in really tight with like a group of like bikers,

536
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 8: like reformed biker gangs. And there was this like mountain

537
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 8: that you could climb up and you could see you know,

538
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 8: all of the all of you know, the the festival grounds.

539
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 8: But it was like a camping festiv It was like

540
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 8: Bonaou for Christians, and like we would go and like

541
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 8: you would hear you know, you would hear church services

542
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 8: and there'd be youth services, but it was just like

543
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 8: a bunch of like horny teenagers intents right of which

544
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 8: I did not get to take place in any of

545
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 8: that because I was so fearful of losing my virginity

546
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 8: until I was married, because that was so ingrained in me.

547
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 8: But like yeah, they were just like like that was

548
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 8: the thing is, like I have a lot of like fun,

549
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 8: fond memories m that oftentimes can get like overshadowed by

550
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 8: like the reality of what was happening when I would

551
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 8: come back.

552
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 6: It's so much cognitive dissonance.

553
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: Like I had such an idyllic childhood but also so

554
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: terrifying and adults looking in my face and being.

555
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 6: Like you're probably going to hell, oh God, Okay.

556
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, ah something. You have to deal with it.

557
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 8: Same, Like I like I had an incredible childhood. My

558
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 8: parents are incredible. We're very close. They understand sort of

559
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 8: like where I am and like my beliefs, and like

560
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 8: we have a very open, honest dialogue. They have, like

561
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 8: really since they left the church six years ago, they've

562
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 8: really like a lot of stuff has happened since then

563
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 8: that they've really just sort of like softened about a

564
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 8: lot of things. They still believe very much what they

565
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 8: believe but like I think that leaving the church was

566
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 8: so good for them in so many ways.

567
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're so like your dad was a pastor, and

568
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: I just want to like mention that, like you can

569
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 2: be a religious leader and not be a bad person. Yeah,

570
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 2: like you like it sounds like your dad was an

571
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 2: example maybe of like a healthy of healthy leadership.

572
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 8: Yeah, he really really just wanted to like help people.

573
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 8: He would do a lot of like couples couples like

574
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 8: not their be but like I guess couples therapy, couple's counseling.

575
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 3: That was it. Thank you.

576
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 8: You do a lot of like couples counseling and like

577
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 8: one on one they my parents took in people that

578
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 8: would like that would stay with them for like months

579
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 8: and then like just like disappear. Like people are like

580
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 8: recovering addicts or like single mothers or like you know,

581
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 8: people that just like they just genuinely wanted to help.

582
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: You know, I still do a lot of people are

583
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: like that. Like it's not about hating hating on Christianity

584
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 2: as much as the you know, current administration would like

585
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 2: to think that Christianity is under attack. It's like there

586
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: is such thing as healthy leadership. But what that looks

587
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 2: like is is when there isn't an extreme degree of control,

588
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 2: when there isn't an extreme degree of ostracization, and people

589
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 2: are allowed to essentially be themselves and worship in the

590
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: way that they want to worship, right, Like.

591
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 3: Like that's what it should be about.

592
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like looking back now, like what would you

593
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 2: say are the evangelical community maybe in general, because you

594
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 2: kind of were a part of that whole world, Like

595
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: what are the parts of it that you think are

596
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 2: maybe not the healthiest?

597
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 3: The parts that are like not the healthiest?

598
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 8: Is sort of this ostracization hard yeah, of of of

599
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 8: groups for believing differently or feeling a certain way or

600
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 8: like having shifting beliefs. It's like it's a very organic thing,

601
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 8: you know, belief in general, whatever you believe in, whatever

602
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 8: you believe in or don't believe in, Like it's a

603
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 8: very organic thing something that like I feel like I'm

604
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 8: constantly sort of like battling with or trying to understand

605
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 8: or stepping away from and coming back to.

606
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 3: It's just like what do I believe in? Like what

607
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 3: do I don't? What do I not believe in?

608
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 8: I would consider myself like a very strong agnostic where

609
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 8: I'm like, I don't have the answers. I barely understand

610
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 8: how mirrors work, Like I'm not going to question the

611
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 8: existence of the universe, like I I, you know, I

612
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 8: barely understand that even And so I think that, like,

613
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 8: the really terrible thing is this like ostracizing of people,

614
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 8: because it is so unhealthy and it's so unfair and

615
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 8: it's really vicious.

616
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 3: I don't speak to.

617
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 8: Ninety percent of the people that I knew for the

618
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 8: first eighteen years.

619
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 3: Of my life, like they're just.

620
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 2: Gone because you left and I left.

621
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 8: And then once my parents left, it was a really

622
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 8: awful situation where my father handed the church down to

623
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 8: a younger pastor and they were essentially just ostracized and

624
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 8: as though like they hadn't given the last you know,

625
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 8: thirteen years or gosh, no more than that seventeen years

626
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 8: of their life to that church, and that congregation just.

627
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: Like their community just disappeared.

628
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, was he merely retiring or did he find it?

629
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 8: My dad has dealt with like my dad has dealt

630
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 8: with like health issues for most of his life, and like,

631
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 8: basically there was a really horrible hurricane that came through

632
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 8: in twenty nineteen and he had handed the church over

633
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 8: right before that, and he told me, you know, shortly

634
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 8: after that, he was like, if I'd have still been

635
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 8: pastoring the church when that came through, I think it

636
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 8: would have killed me just because how much you had

637
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 8: to deal with.

638
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 3: And so like I'm really thankful for that. But when

639
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 3: they when they stepped down.

640
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 8: It's a thing that like I don't understand because I

641
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 8: just have a hard time wrapping my head around like

642
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 8: how you could have somebody in your life for that

643
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 8: long and they decided to do something for their own

644
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,239
Speaker 8: health and well being, right, And it's as though like

645
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 8: they've slighted you.

646
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: And that's they felt betrayed that he didn't want to

647
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: lead anymore. Was he still going to be a member?

648
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,719
Speaker 8: Yeah, like he was still a member, but like they

649
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 8: started to feel unwelcome and that's why they left. They

650
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 8: just they were they left. They still lived in the

651
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 8: town for for several years before they moved back to

652
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 8: Florida where they are now. But like they were, I

653
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 8: mean they're like ghosts. M And my mom went through

654
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 8: breast cancer essentially like on her own.

655
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:05,719
Speaker 6: My dad.

656
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 4: That's so sad, and I have a lot of like

657
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 4: anger towards this community still that I'm trying to work

658
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 4: through and I'm in therapy and I'm trying to figure

659
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 4: it out, but I still hold onto a lot of anger.

660
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 8: And my parents were angry and not angry. They were

661
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 8: very disappointed in how that all went down when they

662
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 8: left for a very long time, and they've really grown

663
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 8: past it to like really let a lot of that go.

664
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 3: They're so good at that, and like I am not.

665
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: Well, what is your parents protected?

666
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:43,959
Speaker 3: Way more than that.

667
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 8: It's way more that than it is even the even

668
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 8: like the religious aspect.

669
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, those are my parents. You're like you fuckers. My

670
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 2: mom had to deal with that by herself. You were

671
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: her community.

672
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah disappeared.

673
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 7: Wow.

674
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 8: Yeah there have been some there have been, and there

675
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 8: have been a handful who have been like really really

676
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 8: really really good to them and like have really stuck

677
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 8: with them as friends. But I'd say, like, but like

678
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 8: ninety ninety five percent of the congregation just overnight gone.

679
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 3: Ugh.

680
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so hard as someone you know, I I'm

681
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: not anti religion, but I am very skeptical of most religions,

682
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: but and in particular, like this sort of brand of

683
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 2: Christianity that purports to be about worshiping or following, you know,

684
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: following Christ.

685
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 8: It's also about building community and spreading the word and

686
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 8: like bringing in and being kind.

687
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 3: Jesus's message was right.

688
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 2: And so many of these churches, like a lot of

689
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: the megachurches that are making a lot of many like

690
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 2: there's primary messages are like that's you know, that's the

691
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 2: opposite of what Jesus is talking about, right, you know,

692
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: that's like actually like yeah, hate, that's hate, yeah yeah.

693
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 2: Or you know, discriminating like prioritizing money and wealth. It's

694
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: like that's literally the.

695
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: Operation of racism. It's just so utterly so un Christian,

696
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: so un Christian. It's so and even as like a

697
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: two year old, I could see that and like almost weird.

698
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, only because it's like at the top

699
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 8: of my brain because I was listening to it on

700
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 8: the way over. I was listening to this, like I

701
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 8: was telling I was listening to this like playlist that

702
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 8: I had put together of like oh my god, what

703
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 8: were the like late nineties, early two thousands, just.

704
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 3: Like Christian pop bangers. And there's a quote at.

705
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 8: The beginning of there's a really famous song called Jesus Freak.

706
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 3: Have you ever heard this song? Okay, it's DC Talk

707
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 3: Jesus Freak from like ninety.

708
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 2: Six, elevating DC Talk's status right now because I had

709
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: never heard of this band.

710
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 3: What Toby mac lead singer DC Talk.

711
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 8: So at the beginning of the song, there's a quote

712
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 8: and it's something to the degree of the greatest cause

713
00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 8: of atheism in the world is Christians. He says, it's

714
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 8: like a quarter of the beginning. And when I heard

715
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 8: that again this morning. This is a song I've heard

716
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 8: probably one hundred thousand times, like when I was a kid,

717
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 8: and like I heard that this morning for the first time,

718
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 8: and I was like, that's at.

719
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 3: The beginning of that, Like that's so true.

720
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: That's interesting. They were Christians, Yeah, but.

721
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 6: They're just saying like the shitty Christian.

722
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 8: Right, Like that's the thing is Like, the one of

723
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 8: the biggest reasons why I stepped away from Christianity was

724
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 8: the people.

725
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, one of the biggest reasons.

726
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, judgmental little memis.

727
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 1: What what I don't understand is was there something about

728
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: this church in particular that was like you have to

729
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: be at this one, like if you go to a

730
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: different one.

731
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 8: Yeah, there was there was something wherein like they had

732
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 8: all felt like they had kind of tapped into a

733
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 8: source that it was like uncharted waters, like we're all

734
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 8: discovering this together, Like we're all Indiana Jones and we're

735
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 8: like carving out this this uh, this artifact, and we're

736
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 8: going to figure it out together. Like this is new,

737
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 8: this is new new, you know, this isn't like that

738
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 8: same old, same old, Like we're figuring this out together.

739
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 8: It was like discovering a new belief system like within

740
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 8: evangelical Christianity. Yes, that was at the core of this,

741
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 8: Like you got to be here because I'm picking up

742
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 8: on something that nobody else.

743
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 3: Is picking up on.

744
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, so jumping ship was like really yeah, taking.

745
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 3: Like wow, you really like it really gave up really

746
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 3: abandoned shit making people.

747
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 6: We're figuring this out, like I'm mad. Yeah, I get that.

748
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 9: It's twenty twenty five and a new year means brand

749
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 9: new opportunities. And for a lot of you out there,

750
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,080
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751
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752
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753
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754
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755
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759
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760
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761
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763
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764
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,680
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765
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766
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,520
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767
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768
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769
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 9: Shopify dot com slash true Crime.

770
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: What was the thing for you that really like solidified, Like, Okay,

771
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 2: I'm not interested in this religion.

772
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 8: I think it started, you know, after high school, really

773
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 8: pretty deeply, where I just started to realize that that

774
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 8: connection that I felt like I had had had for

775
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 8: a very long time was based in artifice, and it

776
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 8: was more this story that I've been telling myself for

777
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 8: a long time as opposed to like because as soon

778
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 8: as I took a step back and went what do

779
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 8: I actually believe in?

780
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 3: It was a pretty short list.

781
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 8: And I and I really started to read the Bible

782
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 8: and really started to kind of research and and look

783
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 8: at it from like an objective perspective and not from

784
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 8: like a not from like a you know, a studying

785
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 8: for the advancement. It was more like I want to

786
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 8: look at this objectively, like this story just like doesn't

787
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 8: even make sense and it's so contradictory at times. And

788
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 8: I was like, but in the Christian faith, like the

789
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 8: Bible is concrete, like there are no variations, Like it

790
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 8: is what it is, what it is, you know, Old Testament,

791
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 8: New Testament, Like no no variation, It's all true. And

792
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,479
Speaker 8: I was like, but is it? And I just really

793
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 8: started to like question that for a very long time.

794
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,479
Speaker 8: And it was sort of like it was It wasn't

795
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 8: like it wasn't an overnight thing for me, you know,

796
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 8: it was it was several years of just like learning

797
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 8: more about the universe and learning more about like I

798
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 8: just didn't want to spend my whole life focusing on

799
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 8: like the next thing, and I wanted to invest in

800
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 8: like the people currently because I saw so much of

801
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 8: that when I was younger, of people being sort of

802
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 8: slighted or or disappearing from our lives, and I didn't

803
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 8: want that to happen. I wanted to be like a

804
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 8: positive energy. And I think that that's kind of what

805
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 8: I really sort of like gleaned to Hm.

806
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 6: I love that.

807
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: What I was going to ask is, do you have

808
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: any stuff that's like remaining you know, like I still

809
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: kind of have.

810
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 6: Like a fear of how.

811
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 3: Oh for sure?

812
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 6: Really?

813
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 3: Oh yeah yeah.

814
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 8: So my wife and I were like just goofing off

815
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 8: of the house a few weeks ago, and she was

816
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 8: like trying to do a bit with me, and she

817
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 8: was like, she was like, what's your greatest fear, like

818
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 8: trying to get me to say, like losing you, and

819
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 8: I just went, I just went that hell's real and

820
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 8: I've been wrong all the time.

821
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 3: And she was like, you're supposed to say losing me?

822
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 8: Yeah too, also that, but I was like, yeah, that's

823
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 8: my biggest fears.

824
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,959
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, what if I'm what if I'm wrong?

825
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 8: Like what if I've just like built this insular mentality

826
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 8: much like Christianity. It's like, how do you know, Like,

827
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 8: like I really struggle with that hell less so because

828
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 8: like hell.

829
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 3: Was Hell wasn't like a big thing that was sort.

830
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: Of preached lucky, you're so lucky.

831
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't mean to brag.

832
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:43,359
Speaker 3: I don't think I'm going but no, like that wasn't

833
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 3: like a big thing. It was.

834
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 8: It was kind of a thing when I was when

835
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 8: I was younger, when we were in Baltimore at Velvet

836
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 8: or Baptist Church, like, but it really started to kind

837
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 8: of go away. It was less about this like afterlife

838
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 8: thing and it was more about like you know, like

839
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 8: communing and being more in touch you know, currently, Like

840
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 8: it wasn't like you're going to hell. You're on how

841
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,919
Speaker 8: you're going to hell, you know, not fire and brimstone. Yeah,

842
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 8: but like that's that's definitely something that I hold on to.

843
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 2: Is like, oh but what yeah, I had that for

844
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 2: a while. I don't anymore.

845
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 3: Really, Yeah, how'd you get rid of it?

846
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: But I also, you know, in Mormonism, hall isn't really

847
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 2: there's not really a traditional but it does like it

848
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: almost didn't matter because I thought sex was such a

849
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 2: big sin that I still thought that I like basically

850
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:28,959
Speaker 2: thought I was going to hell, which is so weird

851
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 2: because it's like, oh yeah, it's just the lowest tier

852
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 2: of heaven. But the lowest tier of heaven means you

853
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 2: don't get to like be with your family in the afterlife. Yeah,

854
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: so it might as well be you know what I mean.

855
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 8: That's the interesting thing that like, I'm so curious about

856
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,879
Speaker 8: your experience with this is because like like there weren't

857
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 8: like it was more organic to us there. There weren't

858
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 8: like strict systems of like this part of heaven and

859
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 8: then this part of heaven. It was like like when

860
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 8: I would ask when I would ask somebody in the church,

861
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:55,879
Speaker 8: or I'd ask my dad or I'd ask my mom,

862
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 8: like what does heaven even mean? They would describe it

863
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 8: as like being permanently in the presence of God, And

864
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 8: I was.

865
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 3: Like, the fuck does that mean? Right? Like could you

866
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 3: be more specific? Like is there a buildings, a planet?

867
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 6: Right?

868
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: Right?

869
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 3: Yeah?

870
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 8: Because I didn't have that. So I'm like even the

871
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 8: lack of structure was confusing.

872
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure and the two by two's heaven was

873
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 1: going to just be a never ending church service, Oh

874
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: my God, like hell, extremely boring, but Also it was

875
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: like you're not going to have a body and you're

876
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: not going to know your family there, because if you

877
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: knew your family there, then you would know who is

878
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: missing because there's going to be a lot of people

879
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: missing because.

880
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 2: The two by two are that's sad that heaven doesn't

881
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 2: sound fun at all now. And then Hell was just

882
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 2: like some people you know, joke around about like, oh yeah,

883
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: all my friends will be in Hell.

884
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 6: I'd rather be there. No, two by two.

885
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 1: Hell is like you're by yourself for eternity, burning alive.

886
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 6: So that that was.

887
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 3: The good place part of Hell if that's where I

888
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 3: end up going.

889
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, there was no uh, there was no good

890
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 6: place part of Hell.

891
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: It was just like very traumatizing, a place where even

892
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: have a sounded horrible.

893
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 2: That's a lose lose yeah, bad option.

894
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 1: That's why like sometimes the two by two is really

895
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 1: just I'm like, damn, what's.

896
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 6: The good part.

897
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 3: How do they recruit? How do they get you know

898
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 3: what's great about us? Nothing? They're like, well, I gotta

899
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 3: know what that's all about.

900
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, they're not recruiting.

901
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 8: That's like when somebody's like, come see my friend do

902
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 8: improv and I'm like is it in a big theater,

903
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 8: They're like, no, it's ten people in a room.

904
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 6: In a backyard.

905
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 3: Great, that sounds fantastic.

906
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 6: That is exactly how I would describe the two by twos. Actually,

907
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 6: it's just like.

908
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: A generally general, generationally passed curse.

909
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 6: Oh no, thanks, anyway, enough about me.

910
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 1: So, like, but do you find that in your daily

911
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: life you've been able to kind of refocus re realign

912
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: is their hope for people?

913
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 3: Absolutely?

914
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, It's taken a really long time, and it's it's

915
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 8: been a consistent process of reframing, you know, things that

916
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 8: I was taught or things that I learned to to

917
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 8: sort of like form my own identity. That's taken a

918
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 8: long time to kind of like because so much of

919
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 8: your identity is ingrained in the church and ingrained in

920
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 8: that system. That like, I spent a really long time

921
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 8: sort of like unraveling that and then like winding up,

922
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 8: like well who am I?

923
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 3: Like what do I believe? And what do I not believe?

924
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 3: What do I want? What do I not want?

925
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: Like?

926
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 6: What does unraveling look like?

927
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: Is that like just finding things you're interested in and following.

928
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 3: Some some of that absolutely?

929
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 8: Some of that, Yeah, Like like I'm constantly like hearing people,

930
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 8: like hearing friends like talk about like oh, like you know,

931
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 8: my brother or my cousin showed me this like movie

932
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 8: when I was really young, or like I listened to

933
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 8: this band when I was really young, and it was

934
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 8: like I had to discover all that like later because

935
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 8: I was so limited on what I was allowed to

936
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 8: do and what I was allowed to listen to and

937
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 8: allowed to like my I wanted. I wanted to have

938
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 8: the Eiffel sixty five album, which is I'm Blue.

939
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 3: And my dad I gave it.

940
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 8: I had to give it to him, to go downstairs

941
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 8: in our basement in Baltimore to listen to the whole

942
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 8: album and read the lyrics to make sure it was okay,

943
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 8: and he still don't let me have it because.

944
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 3: There was a song the whole album lyrics, this song

945
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 3: called your Clown, and he was like, you don't want

946
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 3: to be anybody's clown?

947
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 2: Stop?

948
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 6: Okay.

949
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 8: So, but like so finding my own identity, like finding

950
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,959
Speaker 8: the things that I like am passionate about, or things

951
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 8: that I love, or learning about the universe or learning

952
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 8: about other religions. That's sort of where I am right now.

953
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 8: Is just sort of like trying to educate myself more

954
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 8: on other religions, just something that like I was so

955
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 8: nudged away from when I was younger to like even

956
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 8: like even be curious about. And so you know I was,

957
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,720
Speaker 8: I was nudged away from that, and so like now,

958
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 8: you know, in my thirties, I'm just like I don't

959
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 8: know a lot about like Hindu or Islam or Judaism

960
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 8: or Buddhism, like it just like things I want to discover,

961
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 8: Like I'm in this discovery phase.

962
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, that I think is really that's like very exciting.

963
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 6: Knowledge is power.

964
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. I read that on a poster in a library once.

965
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's an amazing journey. And yeah, you

966
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: work in horror films.

967
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, a horror and thriller and action movies. I

968
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 8: produced a lot of action horror and thriller movies.

969
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: Talk about you know something that I'm sure was probably

970
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 1: like no, you can't horror movie, just you know, I

971
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 1: would love to.

972
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 3: Talk about this.

973
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, I was because demons were real and Satan was

974
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 8: real and hell was real. Like that, Horror, anything even

975
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 8: remotely scary horrified me for a very long time, like

976
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 8: until I was like fourteen, I think fourteen or fifteen,

977
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 8: I watched my first horror movie, which was it Freddy

978
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 8: Versus Jason.

979
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 2: Oh okay, hilarious, which taught me.

980
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 8: I was like, oh, hruis are can be funny and

981
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 8: they're fun like is that what this is all about? Like,

982
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 8: oh my god, And that just cracked my brain open,

983
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 8: you know, and I started watching everything. But like it

984
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 8: is so interesting because like, you know, I learned how

985
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 8: to make short films. I learned how to edit, and

986
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 8: like in the church, like my first job. I got

987
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 8: my first job when I was fifteen years old with

988
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 8: a production company that was owned by a member of

989
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 8: the church. I would come and work with him after

990
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 8: school and he would and he taught me how to edit,

991
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 8: and he taught me how to use a camera. And

992
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 8: like anytime I get a new job, or anytime I

993
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 8: book like a big thing, or like you know, like

994
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 8: I got a movie into.

995
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 3: South By, like I text him.

996
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 8: I always text him because like I'm just like I

997
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 8: wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for you, you know.

998
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 3: But like.

999
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 8: You know, it was like in the church, they were like,

1000
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 8: you're going to use this for like for a like for.

1001
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 3: The heart of the lord.

1002
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 8: You know, for the longest time, they're like, you're going

1003
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 8: to use this and you're gonna be a prophet to

1004
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 8: Oh my god.

1005
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 2: That was like I make movies about killing Yeah, yeah.

1006
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. There was a prophecy told.

1007
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 8: Over my mom when she was pregnant with me that

1008
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 8: I was going to be a prophet to the nation

1009
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 8: of Africa. Yeah, and that was printed on like it

1010
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,720
Speaker 8: was like calligraphy. Used to use calligraphy on a scroll

1011
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 8: that was in my bedroom for the first like.

1012
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 3: Twelve years old.

1013
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 2: Stop it of Africa.

1014
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 3: When I was eight with my parents and there's still.

1015
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:42,399
Speaker 1: Time when you were eight or are you expecting some

1016
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 1: big thing to happen, because I.

1017
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 8: Know I was expecting to like eat candy with like

1018
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 8: like a kid who was a missionary who grew up

1019
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 8: there in Nigier.

1020
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 3: And uh yeah.

1021
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 8: So it was like it's it's just so funny how

1022
00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:01,359
Speaker 8: that's shifted so dramatically, uh into like working in genre film,

1023
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 8: which I love, and like my mom has only ever

1024
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 8: seen like I think like one movie that I've totally

1025
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 8: it's because they're just like too much for her.

1026
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1027
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 8: She'll always ask me like, are there a lot of

1028
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 8: curse words, and I'm like, well this one okay. Maybe,

1029
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 8: Like I I approuced to a shark movie like a

1030
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 8: couple years ago called The Black Demon, and I was like, oh,

1031
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 8: you can watch this one.

1032
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,879
Speaker 3: Mom, like, is not that bad. It's PG thirteen, You'll

1033
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:26,280
Speaker 3: be fine.

1034
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 8: And she had like texted me after she watched it

1035
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 8: and she was like it was okay, Like there was

1036
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 8: there was just some foul language.

1037
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 3: That's just I really didn't.

1038
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 6: For her.

1039
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 3: True. Yeah.

1040
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 2: Oh, do you guys ever have to do family friendly versions.

1041
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 6: With no curse No?

1042
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 2: I mean I guess we don't have to.

1043
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 8: Just like the distributors if they sell the TV rights

1044
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 8: like that, have to do like a version like that.

1045
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 3: But that's less and less nowadays.

1046
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,439
Speaker 2: It's not like it's airing on no TNT. Yeah.

1047
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, there's there's less and less of that, not

1048
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 8: in the definitely not in the independent space, right, Yeah,

1049
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 8: the studios probably have to do that.

1050
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, my dad also doesn't like swearing and my

1051
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 2: mom doesn't like scary things. So yeah, but they support it.

1052
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,439
Speaker 8: They're very supportive, they're very proud, like you know, it's

1053
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 8: she just won't watch.

1054
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a beautiful character arc for you all. I

1055
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 6: feel like, yeah, that's that's a really beautiful thing.

1056
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 8: I've Yeah, I've never felt more close with my parents

1057
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 8: than I do, like now, like going through I think

1058
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 8: really it really started when my mom was diagnosed with

1059
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 8: breast cancer and like going through that process, and I

1060
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 8: moved in with them for a little while to help

1061
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 8: take care of her because my dad also had an

1062
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 8: emergency quadruple bypass, so they were both like my mom

1063
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 8: was in chemo and my dad was recovering.

1064
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 3: My God, So I went home and.

1065
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 8: I took care of them during COVID for a while,

1066
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 8: and like that just sort of like started this process

1067
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 8: where like we just became so much closer and like

1068
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 8: more based in just our relationship as a family and

1069
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 8: less about like the church, which felt like it was

1070
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 8: such a big part of it for a really long time.

1071
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 6: I thought, it's so beautiful.

1072
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, what a silver lining.

1073
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 3: Yeah totally.

1074
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 2: Do you have anything you would like to direct people toward.

1075
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 8: Okay, there's a couple of things. I highly recommend reading

1076
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 8: that essay Upon This Rock by John Jeremiah Sullivan. You

1077
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 8: can find it online, GQ published it, or it's in

1078
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 8: his book pulped I'm always pushing this book because I

1079
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 8: think it's incredible, and his wife was one of my

1080
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 8: professors in college and so I got to like interview

1081
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 8: him when I was in college.

1082
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 3: Upon this rock is pretty incredible. Oh my god.

1083
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, if you haven't seen it, and I feel like

1084
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 8: it's fairly popularized now.

1085
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 3: But like the documentary Jesus Camp, Oh.

1086
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 8: Yeah, is like if I ever wanted to like explain

1087
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 8: to somebody like what it was like kind of being

1088
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 8: indoctrinated at a very young age, Like I point him

1089
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 8: to Jesus Camp like nin nine times out of ten

1090
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 8: because I'm like, it nails it. I'm like, that's what

1091
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 8: it was like to go to church camp. That's what

1092
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,320
Speaker 8: it was like to go to creation or summer conference

1093
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 8: or spending all this time with like various like youth pastors.

1094
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 3: Like that's exactly what it was like, right, like fully,

1095
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 3: full stop. It's great.

1096
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 2: And any movie. Do you guys have any movies on

1097
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 2: the horizon? Uh?

1098
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, I have a movie called Descendant that's premiering at

1099
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 8: south By that'll probably be out later this year.

1100
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 2: Do you want me a look on your IMDb pro.

1101
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 8: No, that's the only one I want to promote for

1102
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 8: now o yea, yeah, I have other stuff but like

1103
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 8: yeah yeah, Descendant is premier it south By and that'll

1104
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 8: probably be out later this year.

1105
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 2: Amazing. Well, thanks for joining us, Caleb and sharing your story.

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Speaker 8: Thanks for having me. This was fun and therapeutic. That's

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Speaker 8: really interesting all and one.

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00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 6: That's the goal that is Thank you, Caleb, Thank you.

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Speaker 2: All Right, y'all, Well, Megan's voice is pretty shot, so

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Speaker 2: we are not going to further comment on this episode.

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Speaker 5: We're not going to further subject your ears to my voice.

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Speaker 2: But major thanks to Caleb for coming on, coming on

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Speaker 2: a podcast when that's not something you do a lot

1114
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Speaker 2: is always stressful and we appreciate it.

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Speaker 6: Yes, thank you, Caleb. You're amazing.

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Speaker 2: So as always, remember I'm saying Megan's part.

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Speaker 6: Please Lola take it away.

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Speaker 2: To follow your gut, watch out for red flags. Never

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Speaker 2: ever trust me, Bye Bye. Trust Me is produced by

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Speaker 2: Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

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Speaker 6: The special thanks to Stacy Para.

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Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

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Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

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00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

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Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

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00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 2: I'm u La Lola on Instagram and Olallalla on Twitter.

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00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:04,399
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Bebraham

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Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.