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Speaker 1: I am Scott and I'm Ben and we're from car Stuff.

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Speaker 1: We're the podcast that covers everything that flutes, flies, swims,

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Speaker 1: or drives, adventures, thrills, chills literally, planes, trains and automobiles.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And you can find all of our episodes

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Speaker 1: on Google Play, Spotify, iTunes, and really anywhere else you

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Speaker 1: get your podcast. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You

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Speaker 1: from House Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline and this week

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Speaker 1: could be considered House of Cards week on Stuff Mom

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Speaker 1: Never Told You. Today, we're talking about campaign strategists. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because typically when you hear from a campaign strategist or

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Speaker 1: about one, it's usually a dude. Yeah, and so why

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Speaker 1: is that? Why is that? Um? And speaking of House

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Speaker 1: of Cars, before we get into women in political campaigning

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Speaker 1: and strategy, can we just take a moment to talk

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Speaker 1: about uh, Corey Lewandowski, who to me is Doug Stamper

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Speaker 1: on House of Cards. I r L. We'll tell the

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Speaker 1: people who he is. Okay, So besides being a real

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Speaker 1: life Doug, he is a real life Doug. People who

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Speaker 1: have not seen House of Cards are just so confused, right, now. Um, so, uh,

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Speaker 1: Corey Lewandowski is Donald Trump's campaign manager, and he's been

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Speaker 1: extremely visible throughout the whole campaign. Um. I would say

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Speaker 1: that he's been the most visible campaign manager, partially because

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Speaker 1: he was charged with simple battery of former Bright Bart

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Speaker 1: reporter Michelle Fields. Um. The charges have since been dropped.

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Speaker 1: But he is what you would expect Donald Trump's campaign

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Speaker 1: manager to. I mean, he's opinionated, he's pretty, let's say,

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Speaker 1: rough and tumble. I like, how diplomatic you're being. Well,

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Speaker 1: this is all about campaign strategy and spend secure, trying

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Speaker 1: to like really just get into the spirit of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but didn't he Like, but he pushed her right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I watched the security footage you can see it online.

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Speaker 1: And he grabs her and and pulls her away. I

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Speaker 1: mean it's kind of hard to see what exactly went down,

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Speaker 1: but um, yeah it was. I mean just just the

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Speaker 1: very idea of that happening seemed just I'm a stranger

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Speaker 1: than fiction. Although we can't like this political season, we

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Speaker 1: should just expect stuff like that to be happening, you know.

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Speaker 1: I Mean it's almost like on like low on the

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Speaker 1: list of bizarro things that have happened so far. I know,

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Speaker 1: just the the day before we came into the studio

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Speaker 1: to record this podcast. Uh Baynard referred to Ted Cruise

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Speaker 1: as Lucifer in the flesh, like things are just so

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Speaker 1: weird politically, like things are so weird. And instead of

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Speaker 1: focusing on the people out front like Ted Cruz, Carlie Furina,

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, etcetera, we wanted to pull back the curtain

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Speaker 1: and look at the political machinery because obviously, with all

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Speaker 1: the money but now goes into political campaigning, there's so

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Speaker 1: much background work to hone messages and optics and events,

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Speaker 1: and you have when you look at the gender breakdown

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Speaker 1: of who does what behind the scenes of political campaigns,

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Speaker 1: you have um a little pocket where women are are

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Speaker 1: um welcomed, and then the rest of it. It's pretty

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Speaker 1: tough for a lady. It can be pretty tough for

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Speaker 1: a lady to branch out in in the strategy realm.

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Speaker 1: But first I wanted to take a look at people

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes in general, so campaigns staffers, because I'm

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Speaker 1: sure a lot of you saw that big Jezebel piece.

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Speaker 1: It was looking at how men and women in campaign

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Speaker 1: staffs are paid, and how many are employed and over

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Speaker 1: all the numbers are pretty pretty bad. Uh So, this

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Speaker 1: again is coming from Jezebel and the The campaign with

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Speaker 1: the highest paid discrepancy between men and women was Ted Cruz. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Male employees make an average of twenty thou more than

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Speaker 1: female employees in that campaign, the now defunct Rubio campaign

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Speaker 1: actually paid women the best. They made on average just

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Speaker 1: more than five thousand dollars more than male staffers. And

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Speaker 1: of ten of the ten highest paid staffers on the

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Speaker 1: sadly defunct Rubio campaign, which a lot of people BT

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Speaker 1: dubs in the primaries are still voting for Rubio over Casic.

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Speaker 1: For instance, UM six for female. Six out of ten

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Speaker 1: on the Rebio highest paid staffer list were uh female.

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Speaker 1: Not so for Bernie. He is literally the only candidate

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Speaker 1: who has no women in his top ten highest paid employees.

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Speaker 1: But he has paid the women in his campaign equitably.

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Speaker 1: In fact, on average they're making a little under one

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars more than the men. And then if we

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Speaker 1: look at Hillary Clinton, men and women were making essentially

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Speaker 1: the same amount and of her ten highest paid staffers,

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Speaker 1: uh sixer dudes for our ladies, um, one of them

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Speaker 1: being Juma Aberdeen, who's one of the biggest names really

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Speaker 1: in political campaigning period. She's Hillary's chief of staff and

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Speaker 1: her campaign's vice chairwoman. Um. And she also was on

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Speaker 1: Call your Girlfriend not that long ago, which was uh

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Speaker 1: interesting to hear. I mean, like I'd never She's been

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Speaker 1: featured in a number of magazines, um, in profiles and

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Speaker 1: obviously his gotten a lot of attention because her husband

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Speaker 1: is Anthony Weener. Um. But it was it was nice

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Speaker 1: to hear whom I have just kind of off the

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Speaker 1: cuff conversation as off the cuff as a chief of

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Speaker 1: staff can be. Yeah. And I love knowing that she

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Speaker 1: started working for Hillary as an intern at the White

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Speaker 1: House in so she's been with her a long time. Um.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at Trump, out of his ten

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Speaker 1: highest paid staff members, seven or men and three or women. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and women on average make three thousand dollars less than

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Speaker 1: men their male counterparts for the Trump campaign. And John

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Speaker 1: Kasik is actually the only candidate who has a female

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Speaker 1: campaign manager. Her name's Beth Hanson. And actually Mike Huckabee

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Speaker 1: two did too, he hired his daughter. But you know

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Speaker 1: he's long gone as well, I mean from the campaign, right,

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Speaker 1: not from from earth, correct, Okay? Um? Uh yeah. I

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Speaker 1: find it so ironic that k Sik has the lone

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Speaker 1: woman campaign manager, Beth Hansen, because his policies regarding women,

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Speaker 1: as he's been um, Ohio governor, have not been so

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Speaker 1: lady friendly again, you're being so diplomatic. Um. So he

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Speaker 1: oversaw massive shutdowns of abortion providers in the state. He

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Speaker 1: passed two thousand thirteen budget to defund Planned parenthood while

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Speaker 1: mandating ultrasounds UM. And in an interview with Beth Hansen

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Speaker 1: in EL magazine, the interviewer asked, like, what she thought

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Speaker 1: about when k Sick essentially shut down UM a young

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Speaker 1: woman's question in one of his events by saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: look I don't I don't have any tickets to the

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift concert. And and L magazine was understandably like, okay, Like,

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Speaker 1: how do you answer to that? How can you say

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Speaker 1: that your candidate is still like a woman friendly person?

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Speaker 1: And she was like, well, you know, he has young daughters,

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Speaker 1: he has teenage daughters, and he's just you know, I

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Speaker 1: think it was just like he was trying to be funny,

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Speaker 1: and I mean it was just like spin spin spin spin. UM.

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Speaker 1: But apparently she's been she's been with him for quite

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Speaker 1: a while as well. Um, but if we look at

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Speaker 1: the gender breakdown in terms of UH numbers, just like

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Speaker 1: of staffers, every campaign minus Hillary Clinton's has employed significantly

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Speaker 1: more men than women, which does reflect just the broader

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Speaker 1: trend in politics. But I was heartened to see that

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Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, the one woman running for president, did hire

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Speaker 1: or has hired more women on her staff than men. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we will and it's not just Hillary. We will

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Speaker 1: talk about that aspect of women in politics here again

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Speaker 1: in a little bit. But you know, the whole skewing

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Speaker 1: male thing obviously has been going on for for a minute.

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Speaker 1: It the political consulting field itself rose to prominence in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies and eighties. This is when you start

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Speaker 1: to see the professionalization of people working on campaigns, and

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Speaker 1: of course consulting that sort of encompasses a broad range

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Speaker 1: of positions, everything from campaign managers to people who were

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Speaker 1: just consulting on like media appearances and things like that.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of a broad range of positions. Um.

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Speaker 1: It was in that we see the first ever female

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Speaker 1: campaign manager, Susan Estric. She was hired to run Democrat

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Speaker 1: Michael Dukakis's bid for president back then in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: but also didn't she get it, she was kind of

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Speaker 1: the runner up. Oh yeah, she was not the first choice. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The dude he wanted to hire was I don't know,

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Speaker 1: otherwise engaged washing his hair. Um. In two thousand four

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Speaker 1: Mary Beth k Hill, John Kerry's campaign manager, was the

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Speaker 1: only woman in that role, uh, for that presid sidential race.

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Speaker 1: And in two and twenty eleven, according to often quoted

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Speaker 1: Rhetger's political science professor Kelly Ditmar Uh, she was looking

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Speaker 1: at political consultants, which again that encompasses strategists, pollsters, ad makers, managers,

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Speaker 1: media advisors, uh, people who were working in top firms

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Speaker 1: on senatorial and gubernatorial races those years eleven, and she

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Speaker 1: found that about seventy of consultants with strategic influence were men,

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Speaker 1: but a higher number of women were working on Democratic

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Speaker 1: campaigns than on Republican ones. And that's like you see

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Speaker 1: that every year, almost in every type of race, at

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Speaker 1: every level of government, that more women are working for

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Speaker 1: the Democrats, more women are in the higher levels of

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Speaker 1: those consulting firms who work with Democrats. Yeah. So in

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Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen, for instance, among key Senate races, six

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Speaker 1: percent of up campaigns had female managers versus of Democratic campaigns,

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Speaker 1: and that was something that Mitt Romney's former deputy campaign

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Speaker 1: manager manager called disturbing in terms of the lack of

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Speaker 1: senior level women. Yeah, I mean so basically, when you

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Speaker 1: are reading articles about women in consulting in campaign strategy,

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Speaker 1: you just hear a couple of names over and over again,

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Speaker 1: some of like the o g women consultants and strategists,

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Speaker 1: and Republicans for instance, had poster Linda duval operative Maria Cino,

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Speaker 1: and of course consultant Mary Madaline who she's almost more

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Speaker 1: famous for being married to James Carvel. They of the

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Speaker 1: opposite political ends of the spectrum. And for the Democrats

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Speaker 1: back in the day, you had media group gurus like

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Speaker 1: Mandy Grenwalde and Don Legwin's and posters to Linda Lake

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Speaker 1: and Diane Feldman. Not to mention superstar strategist and one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite Twitter presence is Donna brazil Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was selling Caroline before we came in the studio to

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Speaker 1: record that. Donna Brazila is one of the only things

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Speaker 1: that I really enjoy about watching CNN during elections, and

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Speaker 1: she is a political force to be reckoned with not

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Speaker 1: to mention she's made history. Um. So she worked on

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Speaker 1: every presidential campaign from nineteen seventy six to two thousand,

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Speaker 1: and when she ran Al Gore's two thousand campaign, she

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Speaker 1: became the first African American man or woman to manage

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Speaker 1: a presidential campaign. Um. And I love this fact about her.

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Speaker 1: She first got involved in politics when she was nine

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Speaker 1: years old, working to elect a city council member who

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Speaker 1: promised to build a playground in her neighborhood, which immediately

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Speaker 1: made me wonder, like, was that Leslie not from E

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Speaker 1: and direc because it would how perfect would that be? Um?

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Speaker 1: I know that's impossible because Leslie Nope is not real technically, Um,

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Speaker 1: it could be, in my heart, it could be totally

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Speaker 1: based on that story about Donna Brazil, who she did

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Speaker 1: right in a memoir that for nearly my entire life,

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Speaker 1: my mother worked as a maid. Never in her wildest

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Speaker 1: dreams did she imagine that her daughter would growp to

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Speaker 1: influence national politics or manage a presidential campaign. And I

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Speaker 1: mean it's funny that I wonder if she's sort of

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Speaker 1: downplaying it, because clearly this woman is determined and single

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Speaker 1: minded and even from the age of nine, like was

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Speaker 1: clearly a little politician who was able to affect change.

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Speaker 1: And speaking of her, though, women of color have been

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Speaker 1: intimately involved in grassroots political organizing since the Reconstruction and

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Speaker 1: early civil rights eras with people like I Too be

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Speaker 1: Wells and Mary Church Terrell and Mary McLoud Buffoon UM,

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Speaker 1: who were instrumental in the now sational Association of Colored

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Speaker 1: Women that was highly invested in UM, activating women within

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Speaker 1: black communities to organize and get out and vote UM

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Speaker 1: so that they could, you know, elect officials that would

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Speaker 1: have their needs in mind. UM and seguing though into

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Speaker 1: today's more establishment political machines has not surprisingly been harder,

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Speaker 1: not just for women of color but for people of

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Speaker 1: color in general. And you mentioned, Caroline that Donna Brazil

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Speaker 1: is so single minded. If we look at the nine

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Speaker 1: Michael Dukakis campaign, Uh, this totally reinforces and UM just

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Speaker 1: goes to show how how single minded she truly is.

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Speaker 1: So essentially like not intentionally, the campaign siloed top tier

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Speaker 1: operatives onto a separate floor in their campaign headquarters UM,

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Speaker 1: which mostly meant that all the white dudes were up

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Speaker 1: top and everyone else was on the bottom and Brazil

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Speaker 1: and Mignon Moore were field directors at the time, and

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Speaker 1: those two plus Susan Rice stormed upstairs, claimed a conference

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Speaker 1: room on the top floor and put a sign on

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Speaker 1: the door that said, Colored Girls, we shall not be moved.

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Speaker 1: And essentially, from that moment, this group of women, these

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Speaker 1: political consultants calling themselves the Colored Girls, have become this

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Speaker 1: DC force that if you hope to get elected on

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Speaker 1: you know, for any national campaign, like, you gotta have

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Speaker 1: dinner with them. They hold these like regular dinners, and

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Speaker 1: essentially candidates come in and they grill them by sickly

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Speaker 1: making sure that they are keeping communities of color and mind,

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Speaker 1: because it's like if if they don't like you, you're

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Speaker 1: probably not going to get elected. Yeah, well, just like

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Speaker 1: do CAUCUSUS headquarters weren't intentionally segregated along race or gender lines.

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Speaker 1: I mean that that could stand in for all of politics.

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Speaker 1: Politics aren't necessarily intentionally segregated along those lines, but they

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Speaker 1: often are. And so you have women like Brazil and

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Speaker 1: the rest of the Color Girls group that form this

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Speaker 1: influential contingent of women of color who were able to

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Speaker 1: advise candidates and remind them gently or not that you

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Speaker 1: can't forget that the Democratic base rests on the vote

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Speaker 1: of not just white men, but people of color and women.

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Speaker 1: And so if you want to make it in this town, like,

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Speaker 1: you've got to be able to think outside of your

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Speaker 1: own bubble. Well, yeah, and it's African American men's vote

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Speaker 1: in particular. UM. But one more thing about that campaign,

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Speaker 1: It is surprising that that even happened because, like you

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Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, Susan Estric was the campaign manager. It's like, Suze,

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Speaker 1: come on, what happened? Um. But today the group of

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Speaker 1: color girls, which they still refer to themselves as UM,

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Speaker 1: has expanded to include a few more women, including Reverend

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Speaker 1: Leady Daughtry and consultant Yolanda Age caraway Um and also

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Speaker 1: the d n C General counsel Tina Flourne. And in

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Speaker 1: a New York Times profile of this group, a number

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Speaker 1: of politicians spoke to their influence, including Howard Dean, who said, quote,

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Speaker 1: they're very rare Washington insiders who understand the rest of

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Speaker 1: the country. UM. And this whole thing speaks to why

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Speaker 1: looking at who is behind the scenes in these political

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Speaker 1: campaign matter, because if you only have white men or

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Speaker 1: also white women who are crafting your platforms essentially, then

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Speaker 1: there probably aren't going to necessarily take an intersectional approach

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Speaker 1: to policymaking. Yeah, yeah, exactly, And that's why Tonia Boy

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Speaker 1: points out in Asian American Policy Review that the campaign

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Speaker 1: staff needs to reflect constituent diversity. And she also points

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Speaker 1: out that you might have training programs if you want

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Speaker 1: to work on campaigns or in strategy. You know, there

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Speaker 1: might be a training program that's just general or ones

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Speaker 1: you know, specifically geared toward women, But there's nothing really

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Speaker 1: out there for people of color who want to step

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Speaker 1: up and work with campaigns and be that voice for

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Speaker 1: other populations that want to see themselves represented well and

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Speaker 1: in conversations about the gender gap within like our elected officials.

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Speaker 1: I think that this part of the pipeline, the background

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Speaker 1: political consulting and strategists and campaign managers, that aspect of

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Speaker 1: the pipeline is something that I know I didn't think

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Speaker 1: about before reading up for this podcast. We just think of, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: we just need more women to stand up and be

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Speaker 1: willing to be candidates. But this is an integral part

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Speaker 1: of getting more women in office too. Um, And that's

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Speaker 1: something that Boy underscores in terms of the pipeline issue

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Speaker 1: that if you do not train and empower more women

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Speaker 1: of color to enter into political strategy and have influence

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Speaker 1: in that realm, then the pipeline is still going to

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Speaker 1: be leaky. Yeah. And what I didn't realize before preparing

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Speaker 1: for this episode is that when women are working in

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Speaker 1: campaigns in strategy or consulting or whatever, they tend to

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Speaker 1: be concentrated in fundraising, which I had no I da

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Speaker 1: And this information is coming from Katie Or from k

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Speaker 1: qe D and Abby Rappaport from the Texas Tribune. Uh So, basically,

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Speaker 1: forever women have been barred from those higher level strategic

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Speaker 1: positions in campaigns. And while they're more likely to be

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Speaker 1: registered voters and grassroots organizers, they are way less likely

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Speaker 1: to rise to those elite levels. So what is the deal?

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Speaker 1: Why are these women like shuttled off to fundraising positions? Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, this reflects a broader trend of women

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Speaker 1: in nonprofits of it being more acceptable for women to

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Speaker 1: be in the upper ranks of nonprofit organization that's just

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Speaker 1: fundraising and raising money versus to help others to help

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Speaker 1: up exactly the whole altruism thing versus something that's considered

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Speaker 1: far more masculine in terms of being in the war

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Speaker 1: room of campaign strategy. So um wrap report and or

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Speaker 1: talked to a number of women who are consultants and

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Speaker 1: also fundraisers and politics and they essentially compiled the laundry

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Speaker 1: list of all of these presumably female friendly work responsibilities

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Speaker 1: that we hear over and over again in terms of

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Speaker 1: many pink collar jobs. So you have the whole thing

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Speaker 1: of altruism, of humility and putting others first. You're raising

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Speaker 1: money not for yourself but on behalf of this candidate

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Speaker 1: and for the community at large, which reminds me of

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Speaker 1: our conversation with Gina and Ashley from recruit Her when

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Speaker 1: we talked about negotiating and how it seems to for

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Speaker 1: salary and how it seems to be so much more

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Speaker 1: acceptable for a woman to um negotiate for a higher

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Speaker 1: salary for someone else or based in logic around helping others.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, same exam act thing, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: the women, as both a positive and a negative, said

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Speaker 1: that the duties that come along with fundraising, like event planning,

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Speaker 1: sending out invitations, and playing hostess are traditionally women oriented

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Speaker 1: tasks and as Susan Lily, a Republican consultant, put it,

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Speaker 1: these tasks typically fall on women, whether it's in politics

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Speaker 1: or a wedding. Well, and the whole idea too, that

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Speaker 1: it's detail oriented work, um and and therefore appealing to

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Speaker 1: women and therefore something that women do better than men

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Speaker 1: is something that we have heard also applied to a

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Speaker 1: lot of other sectors as well. Um. Not to say that, like,

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Speaker 1: don't you tell me that women are detail oriented? I

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Speaker 1: am so sloppy, right, But it's the whole thing of like,

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Speaker 1: are you saying that being detail oriented and a planner

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Speaker 1: is only a woman thing? Exactly? Exactly um? And then

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Speaker 1: there's a whole socialization aspect of it. Um. This was

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Speaker 1: something that Amy Boone, who started her own consulting firm

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Speaker 1: before moving over to the Texas Democratic Trust, talked about, saying,

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Speaker 1: from the time where little girls were conditioned to not

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Speaker 1: really be the ones raising our hands, so again it's

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Speaker 1: that that fun fundraising is feminine? Who exactly? And then

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Speaker 1: Boone went on to explain that it's possible that women

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Speaker 1: are just getting pigeonholed. She said that it's common when

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Speaker 1: a woman shows up to work on a campaign without

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Speaker 1: much experience and without much confidence, the senior staff just

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Speaker 1: tend to push her over into a junior fundraising role

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Speaker 1: where she can do things like just stay behind the

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Speaker 1: scenes planning, making phone calls, planning parties and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: just basically assistant role stuff. And so if that's the

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Speaker 1: position that you're placed in and you do want to advance,

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Speaker 1: well you're probably just going to continue advancing up that

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Speaker 1: fundraising ladder. But despite the fact that women are the

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Speaker 1: overwhelming majority in fundraising if nowhere else in campaign strategy,

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Speaker 1: they're still not typically the ones making the decisions because,

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Speaker 1: as Ditmark points out, you might be in fundraising and

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Speaker 1: you might be brewing in in all of this cash money,

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Speaker 1: but that's not a like clear cut strategic role the

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Speaker 1: way that being, for instance, a campaign manager or a

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Speaker 1: media spokesperson would be. And in a very blatantly sexist

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Speaker 1: kind of way. Um, some campaigns are simply nervous about

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Speaker 1: putting women in charge of strategy because it does violate

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Speaker 1: gender norms in a lot of ways. If we think

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Speaker 1: of campaigns as going to war, as many political consultants do,

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Speaker 1: and this was something that Anne Urban, who began professional

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Speaker 1: campaign work for Republicans way back in nineteen She said,

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Speaker 1: I think there's an old school conservative, good old boy

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Speaker 1: inclination to go with a guy because it's too rough

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Speaker 1: and tumble to be a woman. Yeah. So I mean

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Speaker 1: that goes hand in hand with the pigeonholing thing and

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Speaker 1: just pushing a woman off into fundraising. If you just

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Speaker 1: assume that someone who doesn't look like you is only

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Speaker 1: going to be good at one thing, or she's not

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Speaker 1: going to be good at what the thing you're good at,

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Speaker 1: then how like who's going to break that barrier? Because

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Speaker 1: if you're just operating on assumptions about what a woman

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Speaker 1: is cut out for. And I think that the likability

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Speaker 1: factor plays into this as well, um where you see

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Speaker 1: women who might be in those more strategic roles shot

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Speaker 1: calling likelier to be dismissed as bitches. Yeah, And so

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Speaker 1: a lot of the women that were interviewed, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about how you know a lot of successful women in

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Speaker 1: campaigning and campaign strategy and consulting have to be comfortable

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Speaker 1: with that, you have to be okay with getting called

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Speaker 1: a bit because it's inevitable. And one woman pointed out,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of women just aren't comfortable with that,

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Speaker 1: and especially when you're starting out, and so that could

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Speaker 1: also get you hamstrung from progressing at the ladder in strategy.

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Speaker 1: And then you have the optics issue because a you

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Speaker 1: have um the idea that an attractive woman is going

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Speaker 1: to be better at raising money because who doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to give cash to a beautiful woman. Whereas a campaign

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Speaker 1: manager who's going to be on the road with a candidate,

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Speaker 1: especially if that candidate is Mail, if you have a

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Speaker 1: lady traveling alongside him, then might that raise some eyebrows

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Speaker 1: about how close their relationship really is. And that's something

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Speaker 1: too that is not exclusive to political consulting, but really

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Speaker 1: I mean workplaces at LA. It's where it's like, it's

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Speaker 1: fine if all the guys go out for happy hour

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Speaker 1: um after work, but if a lady wants to tag along,

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Speaker 1: then then people might get a little nervous. Well yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so one of the quotes that really sort of

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Speaker 1: I had to read a couple of times to make

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Speaker 1: sure that I was reading it correctly was from that

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Speaker 1: Republican consultant, Susan Lily, who said, uh, male candidates don't

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Speaker 1: need to be traveling with a young, attractive female. I

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Speaker 1: can give the wrong impression even though there's nothing really

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Speaker 1: wrong with it. So kind of giving into just well,

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Speaker 1: tongues will wag, so we better just not do it.

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Speaker 1: You better just avoid it. Um. But there's I mean,

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Speaker 1: so many other aspects of why women get tripped up

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Speaker 1: trying to pursue jobs in strategy and consulting. Uh. But

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Speaker 1: of course these are things that we see in so

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Speaker 1: many other professional fields, and we will get right back

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Speaker 1: into them when we come back from a quick break.

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Speaker 1: type in stuff that's stamps dot com enter stuff. So

427
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Speaker 1: there was this series of interviews that some researchers conducted

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Speaker 1: with consultants back in two thousand three, and they found

429
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: that those consultants, men and women alike, believed that women

430
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: in consulting political consulting face different rules of the game,

431
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: so to speak, including having to work twice as hard

432
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: to be successful in the business, not being taken as

433
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: seriously or seen to be as credible by candidates and

434
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: the political parties as the men folk, and having to

435
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: be careful about being too aggressive in their marketing and

436
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: approach to business. So these are not just like think

437
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: peace writers talking about this stuff. These are the consultants

438
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: themselves talking about the perceptions of women among themselves, among

439
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: their own ranks. And it seems like that aggressive penalty

440
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: comes up over and over again when you hear from

441
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: women in this field. Um Liz Shatter and Powell, who's

442
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: the VP of Political Strategies with Bates, Niem and Ink,

443
00:29:54,520 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: which is a democratic direct mail and issue advocacy consulting firm,

444
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: said that you have to be aggressive to rise to

445
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: the position as an executive director of a committee or

446
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: a partner in a consulting firm, which, again you have

447
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: that socialization aspect. This is a behavior that women are

448
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: socialized from young ages, often against UM, even though many

449
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: people in the field embrace it. UM. And you also

450
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: have the issue of you know, the Doug stampers, the

451
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: men in power who might not be so keen on

452
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: giving them a leg up. Yeah, and then a huge

453
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: factor UM in the field, just like it is comes

454
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: up any time we talk about women who are alive

455
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: and having children. Is the whole family and parenting aspect

456
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: because if you whether you're a working mom or a

457
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: stay at home mom, uh, you're socially expected to be

458
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: there for your children and your family more than you're

459
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 1: expected to be at work. It's the whole mommy tracking

460
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: issue We've talked about before and Uh. Angela Faulkner, who's

461
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: a Republican direct mail consultant, told the Publication Campaigns and

462
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: Elections that she felt huge stigma as a mom and

463
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: full time consultant, especially when she was traveling overseas for clients.

464
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: She talked about how early in her career she actually

465
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: felt resentment from other women, Not dudes, not dudes calling

466
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: her out and calling her a bad mom, but resentment

467
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: from other women who were questioning her decision to work

468
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: in Venezuela's recall election rather than stay home with her children. Yeah,

469
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: she said, when people talk about family values, it's usually

470
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: based on a stable home environment, and many conservatives feel

471
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: that a stable home environment requires a mother that isn't

472
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: required to travel UM and the the child care aspect

473
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: also reminds me of a Glamour magazine piece that we

474
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: read profiling UM women in the current election, and one

475
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: thing that Whoma Aberdeen said was if Hillary is elected,

476
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: what she's going to do the very next day is

477
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: turn off her phone and spend the day with her son,

478
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: making Impasta and taking him out for ice cream, which

479
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: I was like, can I come over a UM, But

480
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: it kind of drives home, like I was reminded reading that, like,

481
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 1: oh yeah, you probably do not get to see your

482
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: kid all that often because it is a twenty four

483
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: seven job. It does make me think of how how

484
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: could Doug be a father, I mean stamp, House of Cards,

485
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: Doug Stamper and house of cards, like how could he

486
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: be let alone? All of the you know, personality court, sociopathy. Yeah,

487
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: well that too, um. But you know, it's it's hard

488
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: across the board to make time for family or social

489
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: life or anything when you are working in a political campaign.

490
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: That goes without saying, but it turns out that those

491
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: grueling schedules can make certain jobs more difficult than others.

492
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: For instance, media consultants typically end up with the hardest

493
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: schedules of any operatives because you know, I mean, it

494
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: makes sense. You've got to respond rapidly if something happens,

495
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: If Donald Trump says yet another thing about women are Muslims,

496
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: You've got to have your phone on to be able

497
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: to respond, and plus you've got nearly constant travel. And

498
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: so that, according to a lot of female operatives interviewed,

499
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: is one of the reasons that they're likely fewer women

500
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: in media than in places like polling, fundraising or direct mail.

501
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: So yet again, for many women in this industry, there

502
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: is that double standard, forced choice of motherhood versus career,

503
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: and how are you going to make the two work? Together,

504
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: and obviously there are plenty of women who are doing

505
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: just that, but the issue is that men typically do

506
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: not face the same kind of decision making, right, And

507
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it turns out when we hinted at this earlier,

508
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: that party of phili asition is definitely a factor. According

509
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: to a study in the Journal of Political Marketing from Tleven,

510
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: they wrote that women consultants tend to work for democratic

511
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: firms consulting firms more often than Republican led ones, and

512
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: that women led firms were more likely to be hired

513
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: by democratic rather than Republican candidates. And so basically this

514
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,959
Speaker 1: twenty study echoed prior studies that found that not only

515
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: are more women consultants Democrats, but Democratic consulting firms are

516
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: more likely to have women named as partners, and so

517
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: as a result, Democratic candidates are more likely to hire

518
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: consulting firms with women partners. It's like gender politics math

519
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: literal gender politics. Well, yeah, exactly, Well, and I wonder

520
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 1: if that kind of partisanship in this issue goes to

521
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 1: what Angela Faulkner, who was that Republican direct mail consultant,

522
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: talked about in terms of uh CAN servatives having a

523
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: very distinct perception of family values that's often a top

524
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: conservative platform, and family values often when it comes to

525
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: when you look through the Republican lens um often involves

526
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: a woman at least closer to home. But I mean

527
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: it's not like women aren't out there doing it for themselves.

528
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: They are. There are more women these days leading campaigns,

529
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 1: leading superpacks, and heading up consulting firms. One thing I

530
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: didn't expect, I guess I should have expected it is

531
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: that it's actually really hard to find numbers. You know,

532
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: Kristen and I love citing stats. It's like our favorite thing.

533
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: We love to give you percentages, but it's hard to

534
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: find clear cut percentages and stats when you're dealing with

535
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: so many private firms and behind the scenes, uh makeups

536
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: and breakdowns of demographics, which again I mean like ridiculous

537
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: that that is the case in something that lives and

538
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: breathes by data, But of course, I mean it's data

539
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: and also image, so there's only select data that you

540
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: would probably want visible to the public. Um. But you

541
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: do have more women who are starting their own consulting firms,

542
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: and it's not just democratic women. You have Katie Packer

543
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: Gauge Ashley O'Connor and Christine Matthews who got together and

544
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: founded the Republican focused firm Burning Glass Consulting UM, because

545
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: the Democratic narrative about the GOP has been the whole

546
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: war on women. So these three consultants got together and

547
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: we're like, you know, this whole tone deafness issue that

548
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,439
Speaker 1: a number of Republican candidates have had when it comes

549
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: to women is something that we could really focus on.

550
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: And the whole Burning Glass aspect of their name comes

551
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: from the idea that they're going to be so laser focused,

552
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: like it's like it's sunbeam that could learned through the glass.

553
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: I think I got that right, basically, Yeah, exactly. But

554
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: according to Sarah Brewer, who's the former associate director of

555
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 1: the Women in Politics Institute an American University, UH found

556
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: through her research that female political consultants often work twice

557
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: as long in the field before starting their own firms

558
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 1: than men do. And the speculation around that, I mean,

559
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: there's a couple of reasons that could be. One, you

560
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: need obviously kind of a fat rolodex of clients and

561
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: connections to start your own thing, and if you are

562
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 1: not in a client contact heavy position, it's harder to

563
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,439
Speaker 1: make those direct connections. There's also the thing that we've

564
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: seen so often when we talk about women or really

565
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: any minority group, uh, in a professional capacity, that there's

566
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 1: often this need to feel that you have to work

567
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: harder to prove yourself. And that makes it sound like

568
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: you just internalized that and feel like you have to

569
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: do that. But often people around you, I guess in

570
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: this case it would be the white guys and working

571
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: in the campaign expect you to work harder. Well, And

572
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: I mean the very fact that Burning Glass Consulting received

573
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: a New York Times profile an interview by Amanda Hess

574
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 1: insulate all of this media coverage because it was three

575
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: Republican women, you know, forming this consulting firm, I think

576
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: speaks to how you know this this is kind of

577
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: a rarity. Oh yeah, I mean, especially when it comes

578
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: to Republican consulting, right exactly. Um, But in women ran

579
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: more than half of the thirteen most competitive Democratic Senate campaigns,

580
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: and that year women were also in charge of two

581
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: key campaign committees, the National Republican Congressional Committee and the

582
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. But uh, those are both back

583
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: to being headed by dudes. So it's not like a

584
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: permanent change. Um. And again that increase in women operatives

585
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 1: has been stronger on the Democratic side, and in twelve

586
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: on the Republican side, there was just one female manager

587
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 1: working on those top thirteen most competitive senter races. So

588
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: as we are seeing slowly but surely the numbers of

589
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: women in political campaigning increasing, the question is why is

590
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: this happening? Um? So it could have to do with

591
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: an influx of money into and the professionalization of campaigns,

592
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: which creates more opportunities for consultants. Um. I mean, the

593
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: way that political campaigns are funded have has been a

594
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: major issue on the Democratic side of the presidential race

595
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: this year. Um. And you also have a deeper bench

596
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: of female operatives who have gradually risen to the top.

597
00:39:55,160 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: Not to mention an increasing focus and just general acknowledge

598
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: meant that female voters win elections. I mean, women essentially

599
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: are the people who decide who at least gets to

600
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: the White House. Yeah. And another big aspect of this

601
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 1: is the proliferation, like dandelions on your front yard, of

602
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:25,240
Speaker 1: super PACs. And those super PACs offer men or women

603
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: more job flexibility and and schedule flexibility than working directly

604
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: for candidates. And that's so that's attractive to anyone male

605
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 1: or female who has a family or you know, I

606
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: don't know, like seventeen cats, like whatever, you know, or

607
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: like a bocci ball league on the weekends, like whatever

608
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: you want to do to make your life more rewarding,

609
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: you would have a little bit more time for it.

610
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: And Alexandria lap who's the executive director of the House

611
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: Majority Packs, says, yeah, I'm not getting a call at

612
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: eleven pm from the D Triple C chair of Congressman

613
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: so and so, you sir, to your donors. But it's

614
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: different than answering to a politician. And super Packs, by

615
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: the way, in case you are not familiar, it's their

616
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: job to raise and spend a ton of money, but

617
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: they can't donate money directly to candidates. So there is

618
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: that lay yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, there is that layer

619
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: of separations. So, yeah, you're not answering directly to like

620
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: an angry candidate or an angry campaign manager who wants

621
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: to talk to you in the middle of the night.

622
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, what if Doug Stamper called you in the

623
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: middle of a night chilling. I don't think i'd answer

624
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: I don't have the the exact numbers in front of me,

625
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: But in terms of women of color and political activism UM,

626
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: there's also been an exponential um influx of packs forming

627
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:52,320
Speaker 1: specifically to UM engage those groups. I mean, for instance,

628
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: you have Rosario Dawson's co founded Vota Latino UM and

629
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: all sorts of groups like that that have risen in

630
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: just I mean the past five ten years. Yeah, because

631
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: politically you kind of have to fight fire with fire,

632
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 1: and by fire I mean cash. Money's lots and lots

633
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: of cash moneys, like a Scrooge McDuck pool of money

634
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: to buy ads that's not directly contributing to a politician.

635
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: But I know, I know, I just I hate it.

636
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 1: I was thinking today actually, when we were preparing to

637
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: come into the studio, Like I looked out the window

638
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: wistfully and I just thought, God, I would kill for

639
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: candidates who were just humans, you know what I mean.

640
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: Like you can like and respect a candidate all you

641
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: want all day long, and like get caught up in

642
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 1: the idealism and believe what he or she says and

643
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: and be behind them. But God, I would feel so

644
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: much better if candidates were just like, yeah, you know,

645
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: this thing over here sucks like well, I mean, I

646
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 1: think some of that is due to the fact that

647
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 1: we are a two party system, so you have, you know,

648
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: like two people who are going for like such a diverse,

649
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: massive group of people. Yeah. I was just so when

650
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: Bayner called Chris Lucifer in the flesh, I was just like,

651
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: that is I'm not even a Republican. Was that the

652
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,839
Speaker 1: realist moment for you? So far? Was a campaign? One

653
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 1: of the realist moments? And I was like, God, that's refreshing. Well.

654
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 1: And one thing we you know, haven't even gotten into

655
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: and don't have time to is the rise of the

656
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: kind of superstar political manager like a Karl Rove. I mean,

657
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 1: I think that he's probably the most intense example of that.

658
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: I mean that that man has really, in a lot

659
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: of ways, um changed American culture. I mean, he's responsible,

660
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: I think, for a vast majority of the conservative political

661
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: climate right now. Well. Yeah, and even with Karl Rove,

662
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: though you had Karen Hughes, I think only temporarily. I

663
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: don't think she was with George Bush for the long haul.

664
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: She had worked with him back in Texas UM and

665
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: worked with him on one, if not both, of his

666
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: election presidential election campaigns. Um, so you did have a

667
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: woman sort of like in the wings behind row. But

668
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: for all of his puppet mastering, Karl Rove gets both

669
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: the credit and the blame for all of the stuff

670
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 1: that happened in George Bush's presidency. Well, and he's positioned

671
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: himself in that way too, because I mean, I don't

672
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 1: know that I've ever seen Karen Hughes on television before,

673
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: but when you have Karl Robe all the time, Yeah,

674
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: And that's that's one thing we were reading about two

675
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: is like how in this modern era you do have

676
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: people like Mary Magdalene and James Carville, Karl Rove, Donna Brazil,

677
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: people who are political consultants who even like in the

678
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: boom times of the seventies and eighties when they first emerged,

679
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: still we're behind the scenes and slowly, but surely or

680
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: pretty quickly, I guess, they became the talking heads on

681
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 1: your cable news networks, you know, your columnists in newspapers,

682
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: and they have become celebrities and pseudo politicians in their

683
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: own right. Well yeah, speaking of House of Cards, Dono

684
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: Brazil has made two cameos on the show. I mean

685
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: James Carvel was in old school. I don't know, like

686
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: that is a fact in my brain that Um, I

687
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 1: wish it could be replaced with something more useful. UM.

688
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 1: But I mean James Carvel has made so many cameos

689
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: and all sorts of stuff. Um. And but that whole

690
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: thing too, I would attribute going back to old j

691
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: school days, journalism school where Caroline and I first met. Um.

692
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: It's all about the twenty four hour news cycle too,

693
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: so of course they're pulling from the stable of people

694
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 1: who are really good about talking politics and also spinning

695
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,399
Speaker 1: and kind of you know, uh, shooting from the hip.

696
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: The wolf Blitzer. Yeah. I once flew in a plane

697
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: with UM and he was carrying a garment bag onto

698
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 1: the plane and it was monogrammed with his wolf initials,

699
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: and I was hoping it would just be like an

700
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: airbrushed picture of a wolf god. I wish, I wish, um,

701
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: But I think the most surprising thing was that his

702
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 1: beard was almost translucent. Strange. I thought you were going

703
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: to say it was like a fake Santa beard that

704
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 1: was tied on behind his ears. Also, I wish, but

705
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: I want your your wolf Blitzer. Um. I was on

706
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: a plane with Kathleen Sebelius, one time former head of

707
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 1: Health and Human Services. We made eye contact when there

708
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 1: was a really annoying woman talking on her cell phone. Kathleen,

709
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: I waved to her, um, anyway, see if you're listening,

710
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: shout out, um, so anyway. It's kind of obvious and

711
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: goes without saying. And in Kristen, you already touched on

712
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: this earlier in the podcast that if you don't represent

713
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: the population in your campaign, in your strategy, like, it's

714
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: obviously going to ding you because you're not going to

715
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: be able to fully get the picture of your electorate.

716
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: And dip Marius can you imagine um. Dip mar writing

717
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: about this, says you have to be able to understand

718
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 1: how to speak to all voters, including hello, over of

719
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 1: the population, which is women voters. And she points out

720
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: as if she needs to that listen to you guys.

721
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 1: There is value in women's experiences and women's voices, and

722
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: that value can be applied to shaping policy. Okay, of

723
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 1: course I agree with all of that, of course, but

724
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:49,240
Speaker 1: we have a massive glaring exception to the idea that

725
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: you will get dinged at the polls if you don't

726
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 1: know how to speak to all voters, and that would

727
00:47:54,280 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 1: be the runaway success of one Donald A. Trump, formerly

728
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,439
Speaker 1: drump But he yet well, yeah, but he's not doing

729
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: well in the polls with women, right, but he's still

730
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: the as of the time that we are recording this podcast.

731
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: Who knows what will have changed when this episode publishes.

732
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: He's the presumptive Republican nominee and it doesn't matter. He

733
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 1: doesn't even he doesn't need women. I mean, granted in

734
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: the general election, I would be surprised if it didn't

735
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 1: come back to haunt him. Um. But it's I mean,

736
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: the the American electorate also is so um. I don't

737
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 1: I don't know how a good word to describe it.

738
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: It's so polarized at this point. It's so extremely polarized

739
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: that unfortunately, you can make excluding certain people's rights and liberties,

740
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: including not only um women, but also Muslims in the

741
00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: case of the Trump campaign, and really anyone who's not

742
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:09,280
Speaker 1: wearing them make America grade again and not wearing it ironically. Um,

743
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 1: but that you can, you can do that and unfortunately succeed. Yeah.

744
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 1: But like you said, I mean, he's a runaway success

745
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:24,479
Speaker 1: with a very specific demographic. He would not I don't

746
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: think do very well in the general against Hilary or Bernie.

747
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: We'll see fingers hell. I mean at this point though, UM,

748
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: And I'm really curious to hear from our listeners outside

749
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: of the US about all of this too, because I'm

750
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 1: sure it just looks like nonsense happening it is. I mean,

751
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I can't even make any predictions

752
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: at this point. Now. I asked my father who he

753
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 1: was voting for, and he just kind of looks at me,

754
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 1: because he and I do not talk politics, and he

755
00:49:57,960 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 1: just looked at me and he said, I'll be the

756
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 1: in for Kasik after the contested nomination. So but I mean,

757
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 1: that's another interesting example of you can not have women's

758
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: best interest at heart, but if you keep quiet about

759
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: how you feel about women as opposed to Donald Trump.

760
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: Well maybe Beth Harden his campaign managers had something to

761
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 1: do with that, who knows, UM, But of course it's

762
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: not these aren't desirable outcomes, you know, we would like

763
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 1: to see um people elected who do UM value women, UM,

764
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,359
Speaker 1: not just as like humans is like beautiful objects like

765
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: Donald Trump has, but as UM you know, people who

766
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 1: should be kept in mind when making and passing policy.

767
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,479
Speaker 1: And that is one reason why we need to give

768
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: a massive shout out to Emily's List, which is a

769
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:03,800
Speaker 1: political action committee for pro choice Democratic female candidates. Um.

770
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,399
Speaker 1: If you don't know who they are, go look them up.

771
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: Um they're terrific. Um. And just McIntosh, who works with them,

772
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: agrees that. I mean, it's simply a practicality to have

773
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 1: women working in your campaign. She says, by having women

774
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: and leadership roles, you're going to have more needed perspectives

775
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: about messaging, reaching voters. All of that. When she was

776
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 1: speaking to Vocative Well, what I thought was so interesting

777
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: and telling. Remember that two thousand three consultant study that

778
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: I mentioned a little while ago. Yes, yes, rewind. If

779
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: you don't on your tape deck, your podcast tape deck, rewind,

780
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,839
Speaker 1: this comes out on cassettes, right yeah, well how yeah,

781
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: people order them on those. Um you remember those like

782
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 1: cassette services like Columbia, like Titus Andromeda, say Schmidt subscribed

783
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 1: to exactly. Um, so you know they talked to a

784
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,720
Speaker 1: bunch of cans Alton's male and female, and seventy percent

785
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 1: of the women they talked to and just thirty percent

786
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: of the men believed that women brought a unique perspective

787
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: to the campaign and that this perspective could be used

788
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: strategically to win elections. So interesting, because then, if you

789
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 1: don't believe that women have a unique perspective, and you

790
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 1: are accustomed to hiring and promoting people who are like you,

791
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 1: why why would you make a special effort to bring

792
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: women in. Yeah. Again, I feel like this is just

793
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 1: a microcosm of issues that we see across industries right well,

794
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:39,760
Speaker 1: which is why so many women interviewed in the articles

795
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: that we read for this episode cited the importance of

796
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 1: mentors who can help guide you through those gender expectations,

797
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: through those mind field this political mind fields, and the

798
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 1: importance of women helping and hiring other women. It's not uncommon,

799
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: according to a lot of the women we read, for

800
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: women in campaigns and consulting firms to band together, at

801
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,959
Speaker 1: least within their own party and commit to helping bring

802
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: up promising young women that live Chatter and Powell, who

803
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: we cited earlier, encourages female candidates and female oriented packs

804
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: to work only with female consultants, and it's worth noting

805
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,359
Speaker 1: that women candidates do, in fact tend to hire more

806
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 1: women to work on their campaigns than male candidates do,

807
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: and she says if we don't help our own, we

808
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 1: will never be successful at tearing down walls. Um She

809
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: said that in one campaign that she was working on,

810
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: a male staff member, a Democratic male staff member, told

811
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 1: her that he she couldn't run one of his top

812
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: Senate campaign races because quote, I was female, and none

813
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: of his candidates would take orders from a woman. That's

814
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,959
Speaker 1: that's my eloquent response to that. Yeah, and so. Um

815
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 1: Pal also writes that women can at least be there

816
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,760
Speaker 1: for each other to help encourage one another to stick

817
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 1: it out. She says women are way more likely and

818
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: men in this field of work to basically, I mean,

819
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, and I'm just gonna

820
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: use the buzzword, but lean out when they decide that

821
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: they want a quote unquote real job that will afford

822
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 1: them some free time to have a family or whatever.

823
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: Um and so she envisions Pala visions this landscape where

824
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 1: you have training seminars that are exclusively for female operatives,

825
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: given exclusively by female consultants that would then after the fact,

826
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: offer a consistent stream of mentoring support to help women

827
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 1: stick it out. Or really just to help women plan

828
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 1: their career trajectories in whatever political direction they want to go. Yeah,

829
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 1: I mean it's an exhausting job. I can only imagine

830
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: UM getting into this field. So, um, I'm curious to

831
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: hear if there are any listeners who are currently campaigning

832
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,399
Speaker 1: for UM for candidates right now, or who have done

833
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: so in the past, who can give us more feet

834
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 1: on the street and side into this. And before we

835
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:06,320
Speaker 1: get into listener mail, I want to quickly correct myself. Um,

836
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: just a minute ago, when we were mentioning Kimmy Schmidt,

837
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 1: I refer to Titus Andromedas. His name is Titus Andromedon.

838
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: Tinus Andromedas is actually a band that I used to

839
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 1: listen to all the time. So listeners, don't don't worry.

840
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 1: Don't worry. I know, I know. Um, So I just

841
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 1: wanted to make that very important point clear. Sorry, I

842
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 1: was ore. I was just envisioning. I didn't even hear

843
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 1: you finish that because I was just envisioning tit Us

844
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 1: breaking that tape and having so um. Yeah, I just

845
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: I just assumed you said it correctly. Well, listeners, now

846
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: we want to hear from you mom stuff at how

847
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com is our email address. You can

848
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook.

849
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: And if by chance you know Donna Brasilt Pulleys, send

850
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: her our best and we've got a couple of messages

851
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 1: this year with you. Right now, I have a letter

852
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 1: here from Sarah in response to our episode on the

853
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 1: comfort women of World War Two. She says, I was

854
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 1: surprised to discover a bit of my own family history.

855
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:18,840
Speaker 1: My grandfather is a renowned cardiologist now, but got his

856
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,479
Speaker 1: start as a brigade surgeon in the Army during World

857
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 1: War Two in the Pacific Theater. For most of my life,

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00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: he never ever talked about the war. However, as I've

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00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 1: gotten older I'm thirty two and have since enlisted in

860
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 1: the Air Force, he felt comfortable enough telling me bits

861
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,919
Speaker 1: and pieces about his service. Shortly after the war ended,

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00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: my grandfather was in Japan trying to prevent epidemics from

863
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: breaking out among the troops. One of his duties while

864
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 1: there was apparently delousing the women high ranking military officers

865
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 1: slept with. I never realized quite what that meant until

866
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 1: right now. That's such a terrible position to be in,

867
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 1: I guess I now know why he never wanted to

868
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 1: talk to me about that job in particular. Thanks for

869
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: the clarity, and thanks for everything you ladies do. I

870
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: listen to your podcast all the time. Well thanks, Sarah, So,

871
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 1: I gotta let her here from Lena offering some clarifications

872
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 1: and corrections about that episode. Um so so, she says, we,

873
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 1: referring to Koreans, aren't just upset about the comfort women issue.

874
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 1: Japan to date has never actually apologized, and they continue

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00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 1: to refuse to do so. The last so called apology

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00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: was more of a we're sorry you went through that.

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00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 1: In recent years, Japan tried to eliminate a monument to

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00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: comfort women from various countries, including Korea, the Philippines, China,

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00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 1: and other countries. And she goes on to say, I

880
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 1: get the things happened and need to be discussed, but

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00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: depicting Korean culture as one where men would prostitute their

882
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 1: own daughters honestly makes it sound like you're trying to

883
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 1: reduce the seriousness of what Japan did in numerous countries.

884
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, one of the worst things these women

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00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: face post war was a social shame of their experience

886
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: and the ways in which they were to be early abused.

887
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: Being raped wasn't always seen as a sign that you

888
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 1: were a victim and will take care of you. They

889
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 1: were tainted, so everything they went through shouldn't be minimized. China,

890
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 1: in particular shouldn't be forgotten. Your government and people have

891
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: been extremely active in pushing for apologies and some sign

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00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:18,959
Speaker 1: that they might not repeat the same acts if given

893
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 1: the chance. Korea's government has let us down, and China's

894
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 1: government has continued to pursue numerous issues. I'm not trying

895
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 1: to be harsh, and I love all of your podcasts.

896
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 1: I found time and again that your research on numerous

897
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 1: Asian issues has been extremely well done. This just happens

898
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 1: to be a particularly sore spot that isn't just a

899
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 1: problem for former quote unquote comfort women. A term that

900
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: really needs to die anyway. It was created by Japan

901
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 1: specifically to try to tone down the horrific nature of

902
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 1: what was done to them. So thank you for writing

903
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 1: in Lena, and thanks to everybody who's written into us.

904
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 1: Mom sab at House suppark dot com is where you

905
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: can send your letters and for links sold our social media,

906
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts.

907
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: With our sources so you can learn more about women

908
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 1: and political campaigns. Head on over at stuff Mom Never

909
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: told You dot com for more on this and thousands

910
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com