1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: Have you ever wanted a safe space where you can 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: just exist, where for a moment in time, you can 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: be you, with all the intricacies and parts of you 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: that people don't always understand. Welcome to in the deep 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: stories that shape us. I'm your host, Zach Stafford, and 6 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: each episode we create a space to be you, all 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: of you and all your messy and complicated glory. Every 8 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: story shares what it means to be a black and 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: Latin X man living with different hardships, whether it's a 10 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: struggle of identity, discrimination or health, and how they've managed 11 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: to push forward despite the circumstance. We hope to get closer, 12 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: even it's just a little to a road of healing 13 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: and understanding. Hey everyone, welcome back. So today I want 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: to talk about something that affects us all I think, 15 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: and that's the idea of how we see ourselves versus 16 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: how others see us. How many times do people think 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: they actually know our story, the real story based on 18 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: assumptions or cheeky photo we've posted online, or some water 19 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: cooler talk we've had in passing, And how many times 20 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: have others just gotten it all wrong? Ian Manuel's life 21 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: is one of those stories. That we think we've heard before, 22 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: and chances are you've probably heard his story narrated by 23 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: countless journalists covering the events of one late summer day 24 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: that completely changed the course of his life at fourteen, 25 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 1: or maybe you've heard about the prolific lawyer Brian Stevenson 26 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: who helped him gain his liberty after twenty six years 27 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: of imprisonment. But Ian's story doesn't begin and end with 28 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: a bout robbery attempt. It begins with his mother and brother, 29 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: who deeply, deeply hurt him, and his grandmother, who did 30 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: her best to give him a semblance of a normal childhood. 31 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: Growing up in Central Park Village in Tampa, Florida. I 32 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: grew up in a single parent home. But my grandmother, 33 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: Lynda Johnson, spoiled me rotten because you know, I felt 34 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: like later on in life and evaluating why she spoiled 35 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: me so much was the fact that she didn't take 36 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: care of our own child, my dad, Jimmy, So she 37 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: poured all the love that she didn't give my dad 38 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: into me. I went to Catholic school for a first 39 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: grade and second grade and half a third grade. I 40 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: received awards and reading and writing. I was very artistic, 41 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: meaning I could draw real good back then. But you 42 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: know what they say, when you don't practice something, it 43 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: has a tendency to leave you. So I started getting 44 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: in trouble later on, around age eleven, man in the 45 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 1: sixth grade, hanging with the wrong crowd. But before then, man, 46 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: you know I was I was brought up by my mother, 47 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,679 Speaker 1: Peggy Manuel, and she loved me the best she could. 48 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: But we had a mutualist relationship as well. When I 49 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: was with my grandmother, there was nothing but love. When 50 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: I was with my mother, that was loving anger. She 51 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: was a Gemini and I actually seen uh both sides 52 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: of that personality. Uh you know, that was stuff good 53 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: and gentle side, and then there was this angry you know, 54 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: as I talk about in my book, my time would come. 55 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: You know, my mother used to say things to me 56 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: that I don't think any woman should ever say to 57 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: a child, like I found you on my doorstep, or 58 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 1: why were you so dog skinned? You know, it had 59 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: a bad effect on me. Man. I used to take 60 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: bleached baths to try to make my skin It's like 61 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: uh complexion that my mother would careful and love more. 62 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: You know, I love my dog skin now, but at 63 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: the time. You know, the hurtful thing she said to 64 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: me made me not want to be dark. So I 65 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: love spending time with my grandmother because I knew there 66 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: was not gonna be two sides of the corn with her. 67 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: There was gonna be one side, and that was strictly 68 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: unconditional love. And you know, grandmother would take me to 69 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: Tampa Bay Mall when I was a kid, and she 70 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: used to work. She worked twenty six years. She didn't 71 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: know how to read and write. I remember her. She 72 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: get over time and check from Morrison Cafeteria and her 73 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: social Security check and she take them to the bank. 74 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: And I fear that we was gonna leave the bank 75 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: empty handed at them all because the teller would say, 76 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: um Ms Johnson, can you just sign your name and 77 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: I'll get you your money, And my grandmother would invariably 78 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: always say I don't know how to spell my name, 79 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 1: and the teller would say, that's all white, Mrs Johnson, 80 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: just signed X, that's good enough. And I felt a 81 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: huge relief because in my mind I had all these 82 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: fantasies and dreams of that I was gonna get this 83 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: toy and that toy and these cookies and uh so 84 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: when they tell us that we were still gonna be 85 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: able to cast those checks. It was a huge relief 86 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: to me. But growing up and as I got old, 87 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, my grandmother couldn't even read it write, 88 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: and that's what I do better than anything in the world. 89 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: So it was something to think about. The love that 90 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: Ian received from his grandmother was a complete one, a 91 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: v from the relationship he had with his mother. But 92 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: there was one other person that really let him down, 93 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: his brother. And through these experiences of high highs low lows, 94 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: he was marked by the outside world, one that should 95 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: have protected him as quote a problem that's managed inside 96 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: the walls of an institution. So initially, my brother was 97 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: somebody that I looked up to. He was a very 98 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: popular guy in the city, in the neighborhood. He was like, uh, 99 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: the leader of the neighborhood. We didn't have gangs in Tampa, 100 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: but we had neighborhoods against neighborhoods that would fight each other. 101 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: They called him Big John John And so seeing how 102 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: everyone respected my brother, I wanted to be like him. 103 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: I wanted to grow up to have that type of 104 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: name recognition. You know. I love my brother for a 105 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: long time, and and he was somebody that I looked 106 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: up to at the time. My brother took advantage of 107 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: me and sexually abused me when I was like six 108 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: years old, when I was in kindergarten, and uh, you know, 109 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: I couldn't understand it why he would do something like that, 110 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: But it was something that that happened and he was 111 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: incarcerated for and something that we never really talked about 112 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: after he was released from jail. We just like put 113 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: it behind us. But I can honestly say that he 114 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: broke a bond between us man because he used to 115 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: protect me all the time. So I'll never be able 116 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: to understand and comprehend why he would do something like 117 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: that to someone he loved and cared for. He's deceased now, 118 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: But I think everyone was ashamed that had occurred, the 119 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: person that did it, the mother that allowed it to 120 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: happened under her roof, and the person that had happened 121 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: to you know, I think that was just a sense 122 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: of shame, and so to not deal with that pain, 123 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: which I feel now as an adult looking back on it, 124 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: to not speak on it really just buried the pain 125 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: within and no one never got to totally heal from it, 126 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: you know, and you you have to address things that happened. Man, 127 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: It's something that I feel like we left on the 128 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,799 Speaker 1: table that shouldn't have been left on the table. Ian 129 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: as a young boy at this point being emotionally and 130 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: physically abused by the people and systems that are supposed 131 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: to protect him, and then in the midnight eighties he 132 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: has to face a new reality his mom being diagnosed 133 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: with HIV. Now, surprisingly, my mother was very vocal about 134 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: being HIV positive. It wasn't something that she heard from 135 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: the world, me or anybody. Uh. She started doing AIDS 136 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: awareness work, taking me with her to pass out AIDS 137 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: pamphlets condoms throughout several neighborhoods in Tampa. She'd take me 138 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: to the AIDS quote when it came to Tampa and 139 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: we signed our name. That AIDS quote I think still 140 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: floats around America somewhere. I probably could go find my 141 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: name on it if I'm lucky. But seriously, she was 142 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: just very vocal and outspoken about being HIV positive and 143 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: hammered at home in my brain to right now, to 144 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: this day, I don't have unprotected sex. Even when I 145 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: had a girlfriend like I would have protected sex, and 146 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: so it's you know, that's something that I'm very, very 147 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: afraid of contracting HIV because my mother died of that disease. 148 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: I lost the person that I loved a lot to 149 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: a horrible disease, and I swar to myself that I 150 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: would do everything to protect myself from ever contracting the virus. 151 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: You know, I was a child, I couldn't envision my 152 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: mother dying. My mother was still a healthy woman, like 153 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: healthy in the sense that she was over two hundreds 154 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: something pounds, like two thirty pounds, and I just couldn't 155 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: comprehend my strong, vocal mother being torn apart by this 156 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: terrible disease. She passed in June, like a week before 157 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: her birthday. Actually, uh, June eighth nine. Yeah, I remember, 158 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: and uh vividly. I was in solitary confine it but 159 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: uh the sergeant came and got me and UH took 160 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 1: me to the chapel of the prison chapel, and uh 161 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: on the walk to the chapel, the guy, the sergeant 162 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: asked me, um, and has anyone in your family been sick? 163 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, my mom. And you wouldn't 164 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 1: believe the thoughts that you're going the prayers that you're 165 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: saying while you walk into the chapel, like, God, anybody 166 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 1: but my mom. Don't let it be my mom, Let 167 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: it be my brother, Let it be anybody but my mom. 168 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: That's this is the thoughts that's going through my head. 169 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: And I got to the chapel and I just remember 170 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: sitting down black guy afro glasses. I sat across from her, 171 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: and he said, Uh, your brother called, and so right 172 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: then I knew it wasn't my brother, Like my word 173 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: spears was about to be realized. And he said, Uh, 174 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: your brother called and told me your mother had passed away, 175 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: and uh, I'm sorry. I called the hospital um to 176 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: confirm and they have confirmed her death. And so now 177 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: I'm giving you your phone call to your family to 178 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: talk to your brother about what has just happened. And yeah, 179 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: so I remember, and its vividens happened yesterday, and so 180 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: even talking about it now, it's like I'm visualized being 181 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: back in that office. This is almost like a therapy 182 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: session because I haven't talked about this type of stuff 183 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: in a while. Ian was nineteen years old, sitting in 184 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: solitary confinement when his mom passed. We've heard about the 185 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: events that landed him in prison as a young boy 186 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: countless times. Three older friends, the guys he considered his community, 187 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: convinced him to head to the downtown area and commit 188 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: a robbery. Ian says that the mom is leading up 189 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: to the robbery were like a game of hot potato, 190 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: the boys passing off the gun to one another, indecisive 191 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: about who would follow through with the robbery. Finally, his 192 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: friend Mikey, makes an executive decision. Give it to Ian. 193 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: He's not scared, He'll do it, he says. They sat 194 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: in the car waiting for the next random person to 195 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: walk by to make their move, and the person who 196 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: walked by was debbue Bakery and her friend. But as 197 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: the young boys followed through with the plan to ask 198 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: them for change for a twenty dollar bill, something happened 199 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: that made her scream an Ian shot in a panic. 200 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: A few days later, at only fourteen years old, he 201 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: was advised to plead guilty by his lawyer. Ian's mother 202 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: also pressure him and to plead guilty, promised the sentence 203 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: of fifteen years. He agreed, but instead he was sentenced 204 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: as an adult to life in prison without the possibility 205 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: of parole. First of all, I couldn't comprehend life without parole. 206 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: I had just turned fourteen two weeks prior. All this 207 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: legal jargon at the time didn't mean nothing to me. 208 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: A life sentence, I thought was twenty years. I did 209 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: not know life meant until your demand. I did not 210 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: know life meant that I would not be released until 211 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: the end of my life. Um So the only thing 212 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: going through my mind was I was going to prison 213 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: and I was not going home. That's what I comprehended. 214 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: That's the only thing that I could comprehend. I wrote 215 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: my mother in prison, blaming her for being in prison 216 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: with a life sentence, and I distinctively remember her writing 217 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: me back, saying, boy, don't try to lay that guilt 218 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: trip on me. Had you not been out there robbing 219 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: and shooting people, your ask when being prisoned quote unquote. 220 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: But I really took it to heart, you know, not 221 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: trying to blame other people for my problems, but that 222 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: I would not have had a life sentence. Had and 223 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: I probably would have, but you know, who knows, I 224 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: was thirteen. Maybe the jury would have had some leaning 225 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: and seeing on me. You know, I don't know, but 226 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: I just felt that my mom misled me man, and 227 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: she she failed as a mother to protect me from 228 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: the system. I just don't know how you moved past that. 229 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: Did you ever moved past it with her before she passed? Uh? 230 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: To be honest, I don't think I ever did. I 231 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: don't think I ever did, because I felt like she 232 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: let me down at one of the most vulnerable times 233 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: in my life. So to recap Ian his fourteen a 234 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 1: literal child sitting in solitary confinement, being raised by correctional officers, 235 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: and a system that failed to protect him. But even 236 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: through these lonely moments, his imagination kept him going and 237 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: sparked a new love for an unexpected interest poetry. Confinement calms. 238 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: The first day that I entered in prison, but I 239 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: was only for three weeks. I was placed in solitary 240 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: confinement the first day I went to prison based on 241 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: the fact that I was fourteen, but that was only 242 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: for three weeks at the reception center. After that, I 243 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: was transferred to an adult prison. While I was placed 244 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: in jail, a real population and giving all the privileges 245 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: if you can call them that, as an adult prisoner, 246 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: and uh, I rebelled because I wasn't an adult and 247 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: the officers would yell at me. I would yell back. 248 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: I would do typical teenage behavior, stuff like I would 249 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: be in an unauthorized areas what new kids do when 250 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: they're young, They're in places they're not supposed to be. 251 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: The officers would curse at me. I would curse back. 252 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: I would get in fights. I uh walk in the 253 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: grass when I was supposed to walk on the sidewalk, 254 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: and all of that would I would get right ups. 255 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: And if you get enough, right up, and they label 256 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: you a management problem, unable to be controlled in the 257 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: general population. So I was placed in long term solitary 258 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: confinement in November nineteen ninety two, and it was a 259 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: place I would stay until November two thousand ten. So 260 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: for eighteen secutive years I was in solitary confinement. You're 261 00:14:54,720 --> 00:15:00,359 Speaker 1: a kid growing up in solitary confinnment by yourself. What 262 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: she was going through your head during this time? Are 263 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: you reading? How are you taking care of yourself? What 264 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: were the days like? Oh? They were boring. It was 265 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: filled with monotoney. You know. I had to find my way. Man, 266 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: I was growing up in prison. But not only was 267 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: I growing up in prison, I was boring up inside 268 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: of a cell, the size of a walk in closet 269 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: or freight elevator. You know, so it was difficult, man, 270 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie. I started out reading urban novels, 271 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: Donald Goran's Iceberg Slim, and then, you know, over the years, 272 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: my mentality grew. You know, I started reading fountain Head 273 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: by An rand Uh, The Seat of the Soul by 274 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: Gary Zoukal, The Power of Now by E Cart Totally 275 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: the autobiography of Malcolm X. I read thousands of books 276 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: in solitary, but the thing that changed my life Albert 277 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: Einstein says that imagination is more important than knowledge, and 278 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: it was my imagination that sustained me. Thank God for 279 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: my childlike imagination. Someone sent me Tupucks Currents book The 280 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: Roles that Grew from Concrete, and I fell in love 281 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: with the poetry, and I started rewriting two part poems 282 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,359 Speaker 1: and sharing with my fellow prisoners. And then the prisoners 283 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: loved it so much they started paying me to write 284 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: their girlfriends and their wives poetry. And next thing, you know, man, 285 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: I I felt alive again. I felt something of value 286 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: that happened to offer the world. I mean, you don't 287 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: know what It's like the first poem that I wrote 288 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: that really got some recognition was a born called Genie 289 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: in the Bottle, and it's about solitary confinement, and I 290 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: love to share it with you right now. It says 291 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: I'm the genie in the bottle. The world has forgotten. 292 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: They put me in this abyss and closed up the top. 293 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: I was a little boy when they did what they did, 294 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: but time continued to tick, and I'm no longer a kid. 295 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: My mother is dead and so is my father. I've 296 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: been abandoned by family while trapped in this bottle, but 297 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: I hold on the hope that someone will open the top, 298 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: answer my prayers and help me out. Sometimes people pick 299 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: up the bottle and put that eye to the whole. 300 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: But instead of compassion, acting different and cold, I suffer 301 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: sensory deprivation, a lost sense of direction. There's no mirror 302 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: in this bottle for me to see my reflection. They say, 303 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: being lonely and alone are two different definitions, but it's 304 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: only me in this bottle, so I fit both descriptions. 305 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: What I need is a friend, someone to extend the hand. 306 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: It could be as simple as picking up a pen, 307 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: someone who cares accepts me for who I am, my 308 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: magna netic personality and my baggage from the past. Someone 309 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: who helps here the sorrow will work on building out 310 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: to morals. Someone who refuses to leave me to die 311 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: in this bottom. It allowed me to reclaim my sense 312 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: of freedom. Listen, God gives each and every one of 313 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: us a gift. My gift just happens to be the 314 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: ability to compose words and ways that move people. People 315 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: ask me, how did you survive? Man? You know, not 316 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: only did I survived. I survived with my sanity, my talent, 317 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: and my humanity and tact and that was a tall 318 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: order to do. But I will say, despite all of that, 319 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: I would have died in prison had it not been 320 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: for Brian Stevenson and the Equal Justice Initiative taking my 321 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: case and two thousand six and eventually appealing to the U. S. 322 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: Supreme Court to overturn all juvenile life sentences that lead 323 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: to my release in two thousand sixteen. So despite the 324 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: freedom that I felt in writing, my physical freedom would 325 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: have never came had it not been for God sending 326 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: me the best lawyer in America. When you found out 327 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: these cases were being appealed and that you had won. 328 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: What was that day? Where were you? What was going 329 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: on in your head? I was listening to a small 330 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: a m FM transistor radio and solitary confoundly that I 331 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: shouldn't have had that someone had smuggled to me. And 332 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: I was listening to NPR, and um it came on 333 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: and like at the top of the hour, like one o'clock, 334 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: and they said, and the U. S. Supreme Court, in 335 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: a five four decision has overturned all life sentences for 336 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: juveniles if they have not committed a non homicide crime. 337 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: And they went on to the next story. And I 338 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: had to wait thirty agonizing minutes to hear this again. 339 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: And when I listened to it again, they said a 340 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: six three decision, but it was still in my favorite 341 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: and I just screamed, man, I just screamed loud. I'm like, 342 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: it's over, it's over. I just remember screaming it's over, 343 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: and I thought it was, but it wasn't. Because when 344 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: I went back to court in two thousand and ten, 345 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: thinking I was gonna be released because my sentence was 346 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: deemed cruel and unusual punishment and unconstitutional, the State of 347 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: Florida said, your honor, we are killing the U. S. 348 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: Supreme Court decision, and everyone in the court room was 349 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: stunned because there was like, there's nothing to a field. 350 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: This came from the highest court in the land, and 351 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: they said, trying to catch twenty two Yes, yea honor. 352 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: But the U. S. Supreme Court said, this is for 353 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 1: juveniles who committed non homicide offenses. Mr Manual committed attempted homicide, 354 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: which falls under the homicide statue, so we don't believe 355 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: that this law should apply to him. So they sent 356 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: me back to prison, and they appealed to the Florida 357 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: Supreme Court, who refused to hear their appeal. They appealed 358 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: to the U. S. Supreme Court, who denied search where 359 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: meaning they denied. They appealed as well. And I went 360 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: back to court in two thousand eleven thinking I was 361 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: going home, but I didn't. I got back into judge 362 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: said something before he went in his chambers to deliberate, 363 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: to let me know I wasn't going home that day. 364 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: He said there was a statement made about rehabilitation. However, 365 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 1: when Mr Manuel's crime happened, the legislative intent was to punish, 366 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: not rehabilitate, And he went in his chambers to deliberate, 367 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: and he came back out, and he afforded my life sentences, 368 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: and in place of my life sentences, he sentenced me 369 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: to sixty five years in prison. I went back to prison, 370 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: and I wrote this poem called My Time Will Come. 371 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: The poem says, I promise you the print of my 372 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: question has a purpose, and the same person that you 373 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,239 Speaker 1: persecute will one day be worshiped. Though I stand before you, 374 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: bat chested and shirtless, with my soul and emotions naked, 375 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: just wanting to be nurtured. Yeah, despite the desperation, desertion, 376 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: and hurting, my time gonna come. Though I compose this 377 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: poem not knowing if I'll ever be able to perform 378 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: it in an auditorium, I do it with the faith 379 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: of a poet that believes he was born to do it, 380 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: like an acorn caught up in a storm, flung from 381 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: the branch where it was born. You can only hold 382 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: me back for so long. My time gonna come. Despite 383 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: the difficulties and disappointments. My determination remains undaunted. Though the 384 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: waters of my tomorrows are deep and uncharted, the buoyance 385 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: of my character will float on, wavering towards him like 386 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: a song written yet unrecorded. My time gonna come. Though 387 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: you wrap me and change and sprayed me with chemical 388 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: flames and did all of the things you did to 389 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: add to my pain, my circumstances will change. I believe 390 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 1: it's with the depths of my being that as long 391 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: as this world continues to spend, it cannot end until 392 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 1: it's been enjoyed by end. Remember this day because things 393 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: won't always beat its way. My time gonna come, My 394 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: time gonna come against all conceivable odds. My time gonna come. 395 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: If five years later I was released. Wow, did you 396 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: think about that poem when you find out you're being released? 397 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 1: I definitely did, And that's why it's the tide of 398 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: my book. My time will come. In the traditional sense, 399 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: we often find ourselves starting a process of forgiving with others, 400 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: but Ian how to approach forgiven us from the thin 401 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: and slowly start expanding to those who he had wronged 402 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: and those that had wronged him. Even before the overturn 403 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: of his life sentence, he thought a lot about forgiveness, 404 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: especially when it came to his victim who survive the 405 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: robbery I called Debbie when I was fourteen years old. 406 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: My lawyer at the time had sent me all of 407 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: my legal documents, and I saw in the police report 408 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: Debbie's address and phone number, and I just felt compelled 409 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: to reach out to her. My grandmother didn't raise me 410 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: to hurt people. That's not who I am as a person. 411 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: And so I called Debbie collect. You know, back then 412 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: you could just press zero and get a live operator. 413 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: I don't even know if that still works these days, right, 414 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: But I called Debbie. She accepted the call. She said, 415 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: can you ask him his last name? And I said, yes, Manual, 416 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: and she said, with a tentative voice, yes. I except 417 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: and I don't remember a lot about that first phone call, 418 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: except I said I'd like to wish you and your 419 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: family a merry Christmas and to apologize for shooting you 420 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: in the face. And then Debbie asked me a question 421 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 1: that no fourteen year old should ever have to answer. 422 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: She said, Ian, why did you shoot me? And I said, Debbie, 423 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: it all happened so fast, it was a mistake. And 424 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: we talked. The fifteen minute phone call ended. I asked, 425 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: could our call back? She said yes? And all I 426 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: remember about the second phone call was asking could writer 427 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: and she said yes, and That's how corresponded started and 428 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: we eventually developed a friendship. And I believe every human 429 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: being has these desires to do things, impulses to act, 430 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: and yet we pushed these ideas to these feelings down, 431 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: like in another word, it's a crazy idea. And I 432 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: have found in my forty four years of existence that 433 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: every time I've listened to that call of my heart 434 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: and not pushing it aside, it has led to some 435 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: extraordinary things, whether that was calling Debbie at fourteen, whether 436 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: that was writing the US Senator Bill Nelson when I 437 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: was in solitary confinement, and I didn't know it at 438 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: the time because I was fourteen, but I know it 439 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: now as an older spiritual person that that's what I 440 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: was doing. Man, I was following my heart and not 441 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: pushing the idea down, even though it was a crazy idea. 442 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: Called the lady, you shot and have a conversation with it, 443 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: like most people are gonna gonna report you to the 444 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: authorities first of all, gonna run far away from you. 445 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: But it worked. She accepted the call, and you know, 446 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: we became friends. And I have a phone number right 447 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: now and context or caller right now to this day. 448 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: Sometimes people get it wrong about punishment. You know, when 449 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: I was in prison, every time they would execute somebody 450 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: at an electric chair or the guernee at Florida State Prison, 451 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: I would turn on NPR the next morning and I 452 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: would listen to the family members say this is what 453 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: my uncle, my brother, my dad, my mother would have wanted. 454 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: Justice has been served. But by debt be surviving, not dying. 455 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: No one could tell that story for her. Only she 456 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: could come forth and say what she wanted. And she 457 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: wanted me out of prison. Right. That was forgiveness. Man. 458 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: It was a process that she didn't forgive me instantly. 459 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: It was a growth process. It was her seeing me 460 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: my true self, that I wasn't a bad person, that 461 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: I wasn't trying to intentionally kill her, you know. And 462 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: I'm just thankful that she survived and was able to 463 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: tell her own story. Instell of having angry husband say 464 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 1: this is what my wife would have wanted Ian to 465 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: die in prison. You know, I'm showing the world, first 466 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 1: of all, that I deserved a second chance. And I 467 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: am also a manifestation that dreams actually do come true. 468 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: Because getting out wasn't good enough for me. I didn't 469 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 1: want to just get out. I didn't want to just survive. 470 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: I wanted to flyve. I used to dive within the 471 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: depths of my imagination. I'm gonna be this big superstar 472 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,479 Speaker 1: rapper when I get out, gonna have a movie. I'm 473 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: gonna do a book, and I have a book. I 474 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: signed a movie deal. And there's so much more that 475 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: I'm doing with my life that shows that the system, 476 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: if it could, just throws people away. And it's my 477 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: belief that there's thousands of more eends in prison that 478 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: deserve a second chance. And by me thriving out here, 479 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: I mean I give emails and letters from prisoners all 480 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: the time saying, and you gotta make it man. You 481 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: give us hope, You show us that this is possible. Man, 482 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: make it man. And so I'm inspired by the people 483 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: I left behind, and I just try to keep it 484 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: really through my authenticity by being myself. Well, I'm a 485 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: manifestation that dreams come true. Man, So follow your dreams, 486 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: stick to him, and believing yourself non't matter what. Ian 487 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: brings us an idea that's so special and yet so 488 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: simple that our circumstances do not have to define our 489 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: ability to lose touch with what makes us human, and 490 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: it's the ability to continue dreaming even in the most 491 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: desolated places, or forgiving those that have wronged us, those 492 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: we have wronged, or even forgive ourselves for past mistakes 493 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: that keeps us on track to internal peace and healing. 494 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: This has been in the deep stories that shape us. 495 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: Find this episode in others on the i Heeart radio app, 496 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Don't forget 497 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: to share, rate, and review if you enjoyed this conversation. 498 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: The show is for duced by Yvonne Chien and mastered 499 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: by James Foster. Our show researcher is Jordan Raggio and 500 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: our writer is Vette Lopez. A special shout out to 501 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: our guest Ian Manuel. I'm your host Zach Stafford.