1 00:00:06,810 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: Alisa Donovan. Hey, everybody. Alisa Donovan here from Killer Thriller, 3 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:21,419 Speaker 1: and I am joined by Jen Fessler from Killer Thriller Docu. Hi, Jen. 4 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:22,770 Speaker 2: Hi, Alisa. 5 00:00:23,730 --> 00:00:28,730 Speaker 1: So today we are talking about Netflix's new InstaDocs documentary, 6 00:00:28,870 --> 00:00:30,110 Speaker 1: Jane Doe v. 7 00:00:30,230 --> 00:00:30,610 Speaker 2: Cornell. 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,380 Speaker 1: Seven men accused of sexual assault, disturbing fraternity messages, and 9 00:00:36,409 --> 00:00:40,330 Speaker 1: a university facing some very serious questions about how it 10 00:00:40,370 --> 00:00:44,110 Speaker 1: handled the case. So we have talked about this before, 11 00:00:44,590 --> 00:00:47,909 Speaker 1: Jen and I, on another podcast and just in life. 12 00:00:48,409 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: And we've actually gotten a lot of detailed factual information 13 00:00:55,060 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: from journalists and psychologists and psychiatrists. Jen, what has struck 14 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:03,620 Speaker 1: you most about this case? 15 00:01:06,770 --> 00:01:12,530 Speaker 2: Watching Cornell's newspaper and the women that worked on the newspaper, 16 00:01:13,630 --> 00:01:16,370 Speaker 2: the way that they got the information from Jane Doe, 17 00:01:16,410 --> 00:01:21,390 Speaker 2: the way they processed it, the editor said something towards 18 00:01:21,410 --> 00:01:24,970 Speaker 2: the beginning of the documentary that when she had found 19 00:01:25,110 --> 00:01:28,500 Speaker 2: out about Jane Doe, or Jane Doe had, I guess, 20 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,899 Speaker 2: contacted them and she had said to her parents, yep, 21 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,340 Speaker 2: so I guess this is really just a very stereotypical 22 00:01:34,380 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 2: American college where things like sexual assault are going on. 23 00:01:38,900 --> 00:01:41,750 Speaker 2: And I guess she wasn't, maybe her parents weren't from 24 00:01:41,770 --> 00:01:43,950 Speaker 2: the country, I don't know. But I thought to myself, 25 00:01:45,170 --> 00:01:49,809 Speaker 2: that is so sad. And I think that that's part 26 00:01:49,850 --> 00:01:53,650 Speaker 2: of what is so hard about this case and being 27 00:01:53,730 --> 00:01:57,940 Speaker 2: able to you know, take it in and then you 28 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,700 Speaker 2: continue hearing about, and we've done a lot of talking 29 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,090 Speaker 2: about sexual assault on college campuses and how prevalent it is. 30 00:02:04,170 --> 00:02:06,510 Speaker 2: And a lot of this was about that. And that was, 31 00:02:07,710 --> 00:02:09,790 Speaker 2: you know, that definitely struck me. 32 00:02:10,310 --> 00:02:14,190 Speaker 1: Yeah. So we should say the, the sun, which is 33 00:02:14,250 --> 00:02:19,839 Speaker 1: the Cornell newspaper is an independently financed and run college newspaper. 34 00:02:19,900 --> 00:02:23,060 Speaker 1: So they are not beholden to the university in any way. 35 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,460 Speaker 1: And the, That journalist in particular from The Sun, the 36 00:02:28,220 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: young woman, said it was so graphic, meaning the text 37 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,430 Speaker 1: messages and the case, that it was so graphic that 38 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:41,370 Speaker 1: it was important for me to personify these individuals so 39 00:02:41,410 --> 00:02:46,130 Speaker 1: that people understood that these young men were still on 40 00:02:46,169 --> 00:02:49,210 Speaker 1: campus and could be in your class. You could be 41 00:02:49,950 --> 00:02:54,770 Speaker 1: in the quad with them. And So they listed their 42 00:02:54,830 --> 00:02:59,290 Speaker 1: names so that people would know. And it's a really 43 00:02:59,430 --> 00:03:03,910 Speaker 1: bold action to take. And I was just struck by 44 00:03:04,030 --> 00:03:10,030 Speaker 1: how powerful these young women were in this documentary, From 45 00:03:10,070 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: the Sun. And they were very even keeled and articulate. 46 00:03:17,260 --> 00:03:23,500 Speaker 1: I just thought like, wow, that is really amazing. um, courageous. 47 00:03:24,139 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, I don't think, I think we'll probably disagree here, 48 00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:32,660 Speaker 2: but until I think that it's, they were able to 49 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: do it because they are privately run and they're not 50 00:03:34,580 --> 00:03:39,090 Speaker 2: funded by the school putting out names without having all 51 00:03:39,190 --> 00:03:42,490 Speaker 2: of the facts. I, again, I think you're going to 52 00:03:42,510 --> 00:03:47,590 Speaker 2: probably disagree with me about, about this, but I probably 53 00:03:47,650 --> 00:03:52,490 Speaker 2: think that we needed to have, or Cornell needed, the 54 00:03:52,690 --> 00:03:56,150 Speaker 2: students needed more information. There's, I know there's at least 55 00:03:56,250 --> 00:04:00,670 Speaker 2: one case, one of the boys who says that he wasn't, 56 00:04:00,890 --> 00:04:02,350 Speaker 2: she wasn't naked when he was in the room. They 57 00:04:02,370 --> 00:04:05,340 Speaker 2: didn't have sex. He didn't know the other, that she 58 00:04:05,380 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: was having sex. Now, whether or not that's true, I'm 59 00:04:07,580 --> 00:04:07,820 Speaker 2: just saying. 60 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: But doesn't that just take us off the point that 61 00:04:10,700 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: they are all culpable? Like when we get, certainly, sure. 62 00:04:13,620 --> 00:04:15,780 Speaker 2: Except that he's saying he's not. He's saying he's not. 63 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,870 Speaker 1: Sure it's worse to be, to have physically experienced assaulted 64 00:04:19,910 --> 00:04:22,729 Speaker 1: this woman or to have pushed drugs on her, et cetera. 65 00:04:23,270 --> 00:04:27,950 Speaker 1: But it's not good to have been there, seen it, 66 00:04:28,230 --> 00:04:30,740 Speaker 1: been on the text message, and do nothing about it. 67 00:04:31,130 --> 00:04:33,370 Speaker 1: This is the part that really, because then the onus, 68 00:04:33,630 --> 00:04:37,150 Speaker 1: once again, is on the woman to have to prove 69 00:04:37,950 --> 00:04:41,130 Speaker 1: these horrific things happened to her. That's also what I 70 00:04:41,150 --> 00:04:44,710 Speaker 1: was really struck by in this, how they spoke to 71 00:04:44,890 --> 00:04:51,989 Speaker 1: another Cornell student who has since graduated. And they are 72 00:04:52,110 --> 00:04:55,210 Speaker 1: talking about Title IX. They were encouraged, instead of going 73 00:04:55,250 --> 00:05:00,110 Speaker 1: to the police, to just file a Title IX report. 74 00:05:00,610 --> 00:05:03,250 Speaker 1: And what that means is that it stays within the 75 00:05:03,850 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: university environment, and then they don't. So her perpetrator was 76 00:05:09,540 --> 00:05:12,300 Speaker 1: allowed to graduate, left, was something like was banned from 77 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:19,250 Speaker 1: campus for like two months. And then he graduated anyway. 78 00:05:19,730 --> 00:05:20,849 Speaker 1: And he had to write a paper. 79 00:05:21,310 --> 00:05:26,430 Speaker 2: Of course, awful. And she was so watching her show us, 80 00:05:26,490 --> 00:05:28,930 Speaker 2: she showed parts of her journal, her old journal and 81 00:05:28,970 --> 00:05:33,890 Speaker 2: pictures of her fighting Title IX. And, you know, the 82 00:05:33,930 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 2: hearts just break for her. But what I was saying 83 00:05:37,100 --> 00:05:42,420 Speaker 2: is that I am trying as best I can to 84 00:05:42,460 --> 00:05:46,020 Speaker 2: still believe in due process. I am trying really hard 85 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 2: to subscribe in cases like this that are so horrific 86 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 2: to hear about, forget about living them, right? But like 87 00:05:53,940 --> 00:05:56,580 Speaker 2: even to hear about this and this young woman and 88 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,750 Speaker 2: it's right, it's very hard to say anything, but she 89 00:05:58,810 --> 00:06:02,310 Speaker 2: was gang raped. There were seven of them. There was 90 00:06:02,350 --> 00:06:04,130 Speaker 2: a text or a Snapchat, whatever the hell it was 91 00:06:04,150 --> 00:06:07,450 Speaker 2: that went out, all of it, right? So yes, I 92 00:06:07,610 --> 00:06:13,150 Speaker 2: try though to at least make room for maybe one 93 00:06:13,170 --> 00:06:15,270 Speaker 2: of these kids, the one that I'm talking about, his 94 00:06:15,310 --> 00:06:18,710 Speaker 2: lawyer saying, He wasn't, she wasn't naked when he was 95 00:06:18,750 --> 00:06:22,510 Speaker 2: in there and he didn't touch her. And now when 96 00:06:22,529 --> 00:06:24,289 Speaker 2: I don't want to, I'm not interested in getting into 97 00:06:24,350 --> 00:06:26,490 Speaker 2: defending these boys. That is not why I'm here and 98 00:06:26,510 --> 00:06:29,250 Speaker 2: I don't want to, but we're talking about how they 99 00:06:29,300 --> 00:06:31,510 Speaker 2: released the names of all of them. Okay. 100 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,900 Speaker 1: So, so, so we can just sort of say some 101 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:40,130 Speaker 1: of the details here. This dates back to October 19th, 2024. 102 00:06:40,130 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: Jane Doe alleges she was coerced into consuming drugs and 103 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,420 Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted by multiple men at Cornell's Chi Phi 104 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:53,119 Speaker 1: fraternity house. And in November, the Cornell police investigated, provided 105 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,170 Speaker 1: materials to the DA's office, and the prosecutors did not 106 00:06:57,230 --> 00:07:03,050 Speaker 1: bring charges at that time. However, sidebar, her report was 107 00:07:03,390 --> 00:07:07,460 Speaker 1: almost 100 pages or something. And what they gave to 108 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:14,650 Speaker 1: the DA was six pages. So they omitted the majority 109 00:07:14,770 --> 00:07:18,210 Speaker 1: of what she had to say, of which included her saying, 110 00:07:18,250 --> 00:07:20,310 Speaker 1: there is no doubt in my mind that I was raped. 111 00:07:21,010 --> 00:07:26,150 Speaker 1: I felt like meat. I felt like an object. She 112 00:07:26,190 --> 00:07:29,940 Speaker 1: says all sorts of things like this, which is completely omitted. 113 00:07:30,910 --> 00:07:35,370 Speaker 1: So then in 2025, Cornell's Title IX disciplinary process resulted 114 00:07:35,490 --> 00:07:41,140 Speaker 1: in sanctions, including expulsions and suspensions. Two expulsions, two suspensions. 115 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: And the university also barred the Chi Phi chapter from campus. 116 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:52,250 Speaker 1: And then in September of 2026, Jane Doe filed a 117 00:07:52,450 --> 00:07:56,530 Speaker 1: civil lawsuit against seven of the men, Cornell, Kai Fai, 118 00:07:56,630 --> 00:08:00,130 Speaker 1: and other defendants. Now, the thing that was interesting about 119 00:08:00,150 --> 00:08:05,510 Speaker 1: this documentary is her attorney says that entire time, people say, oh, 120 00:08:05,550 --> 00:08:08,750 Speaker 1: why did she wait so long? Let's even put aside 121 00:08:08,770 --> 00:08:11,490 Speaker 1: the emotional side of that and how difficult it is 122 00:08:11,550 --> 00:08:14,910 Speaker 1: for women to talk about these things and how much 123 00:08:15,290 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: it builds in you. That aside, she was under the 124 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: impression that Title IX was handling this investigation, that it 125 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: was ongoing, that it was continuing. And it wasn't until 126 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: September that she learned that the case had been closed, 127 00:08:33,500 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: and no one was doing anything. And that is why 128 00:08:37,500 --> 00:08:40,660 Speaker 1: she then decided to really take it further. I mean, 129 00:08:40,700 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: this girl's life was destroyed. She had to leave campus. 130 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:51,429 Speaker 1: The other rapists got to stay. It's really, there's something very, 131 00:08:51,510 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: very wrong with this entire system. 132 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,940 Speaker 2: It's interesting because the president, Cornell's president, has very recently, 133 00:09:00,980 --> 00:09:03,459 Speaker 2: I guess, put out a public statement and he apologized 134 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 2: for how it was handled. But yet he says he's 135 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: made so many claims that it was that they, the 136 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: university did everything that they could possibly do. And he 137 00:09:14,250 --> 00:09:16,790 Speaker 2: He's sort of unapologetic. At least that's what I've seen. 138 00:09:16,809 --> 00:09:18,970 Speaker 2: I don't know what you've seen of him. He's unapologetic. 139 00:09:18,990 --> 00:09:20,030 Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden there was a, he 140 00:09:20,090 --> 00:09:24,350 Speaker 2: issued a statement that he does apologize. I'm not sure. 141 00:09:24,370 --> 00:09:25,550 Speaker 2: I'm not sure what he said. 142 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: He's like backtracking. He questioned, he, he, according to this 143 00:09:31,660 --> 00:09:37,210 Speaker 1: documentary and the, the letters that they have, he questioned 144 00:09:37,540 --> 00:09:42,030 Speaker 1: why she didn't, say something about it sooner, and that 145 00:09:42,130 --> 00:09:46,730 Speaker 1: sort of line of questioning, right? Then he backtracked and said, no, 146 00:09:46,750 --> 00:09:52,610 Speaker 1: I didn't say that. I wondered why no one else 147 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: said anything, and it's terrible how it was handled. So 148 00:09:56,860 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: then he just bans all the fraternities. from having any 149 00:10:01,020 --> 00:10:05,059 Speaker 1: kind of gatherings or parties, which I also appreciated. There 150 00:10:05,220 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: is a young man who used to be the president 151 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: of a fraternity who is in this documentary and he 152 00:10:11,220 --> 00:10:15,630 Speaker 1: speaks very eloquently. He gave me great hope actually. 153 00:10:15,650 --> 00:10:18,630 Speaker 2: He said that we're supposed to be creating great men. 154 00:10:19,300 --> 00:10:22,090 Speaker 1: Yes, he said we're supposed to be creating great men 155 00:10:22,130 --> 00:10:29,690 Speaker 1: and instead it's creating a culture of drinking and just misbehavior. 156 00:10:29,710 --> 00:10:32,719 Speaker 2: He threw his phone when he found out that all 157 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: parties had been terminated on Cornell campus. He was so 158 00:10:36,620 --> 00:10:40,100 Speaker 2: frustrated by that, which I thought was interesting too, because 159 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,589 Speaker 2: I guess he was really taking in that. Is it 160 00:10:44,620 --> 00:10:46,829 Speaker 2: the fraternity's fault? Is it the system or is it 161 00:10:46,870 --> 00:10:47,710 Speaker 2: these boys, right? 162 00:10:48,170 --> 00:10:51,550 Speaker 1: Right. And I loved, he said, a blanket suspension is 163 00:10:51,630 --> 00:10:54,190 Speaker 1: not the way you fix a cultural problem. 164 00:10:54,710 --> 00:10:54,890 Speaker 2: Right. 165 00:10:54,950 --> 00:10:58,770 Speaker 1: And I think that is a very articulate statement. And 166 00:10:59,890 --> 00:11:03,340 Speaker 1: they were failed by the administration. That is how these 167 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,380 Speaker 1: students feel. Like, why didn't they help her? And why 168 00:11:06,420 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: didn't they report and investigate? And then they also include, well, 169 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,179 Speaker 1: Let's also talk about the governor of New York for 170 00:11:15,220 --> 00:11:20,020 Speaker 1: a second. Kathy Hochul, she is a badass, in my opinion. 171 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: I love her. And her response was spot on that 172 00:11:23,660 --> 00:11:27,550 Speaker 1: is disgusting. And she said, I can't believe this is 173 00:11:27,590 --> 00:11:29,570 Speaker 1: happening again, something to that effect. 174 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,700 Speaker 2: Elisa, I just recorded a pod. There was a movie 175 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 2: that you and I had actually discussed, Hunting Ground. Yes. 176 00:11:52,340 --> 00:11:54,699 Speaker 2: From 2015. And I don't know if you had a 177 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:56,860 Speaker 2: chance to see it, but I would highly recommend it. 178 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,810 Speaker 1: I have not seen it, but I will see it. 179 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: It's a difficult watch, but it gave me so much insight. 180 00:12:04,700 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: But unfortunately, one of the things, one of the most interesting, 181 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,250 Speaker 2: interesting parts of watching hunting grounds and now talking about 182 00:12:14,309 --> 00:12:18,730 Speaker 2: Cornell is the lack of change. And I, you know, 183 00:12:18,850 --> 00:12:23,410 Speaker 2: I spoke to the filmmaker and she, it was very 184 00:12:23,490 --> 00:12:26,230 Speaker 2: sad and very, very sort of depressing, but we also 185 00:12:26,309 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 2: spoke about, because I said to her, do you feel like, 186 00:12:29,420 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 2: you know, Greek life fraternities specifically should be abolished? And 187 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,340 Speaker 2: she didn't think so. And she said, you know, very 188 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,949 Speaker 2: much like this boy, but, what has to change is 189 00:12:40,970 --> 00:12:43,970 Speaker 2: how we not only deal with our girls and we 190 00:12:44,010 --> 00:12:46,290 Speaker 2: warn them right of the dangers and we prepare them, 191 00:12:46,750 --> 00:12:49,170 Speaker 2: but what are we doing in terms of our boys 192 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,060 Speaker 2: and what are, or they even hit a college campus? 193 00:12:52,780 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: What are we teaching them and how that, that film 194 00:12:56,900 --> 00:13:01,370 Speaker 2: actually should be required viewing for both young men and 195 00:13:01,410 --> 00:13:05,050 Speaker 2: young women before they ever hit college freshman year. 196 00:13:05,750 --> 00:13:08,870 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I have to say, you know, Jen, 197 00:13:08,890 --> 00:13:11,580 Speaker 1: I get a little hot under the collar about this topic. 198 00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:16,420 Speaker 1: And sometimes I really, so I'm trying to be very democratic-ish. 199 00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:22,460 Speaker 1: But I am really, really sick of women having to 200 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: be the ones who have to protect themselves and don't 201 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: walk alone at night or make sure you have a friend. 202 00:13:29,100 --> 00:13:33,090 Speaker 1: What about teaching men how to properly treat women? What 203 00:13:33,150 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: about teaching young men the value of human life, the 204 00:13:39,179 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: value of women's bodies and their minds and their spirits? 205 00:13:43,820 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: I am beyond about this. Because to me, the worst 206 00:13:49,620 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: part of this, I don't know. I don't even know 207 00:13:51,500 --> 00:13:54,140 Speaker 1: if it's the worst part. One of the worst parts 208 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,630 Speaker 1: is that 50 people on that text string, 5-0, and 209 00:13:58,710 --> 00:14:04,630 Speaker 1: not one of them said anything. hey guys, this is 210 00:14:04,850 --> 00:14:08,290 Speaker 1: really bad. Or hey, maybe you want to think about 211 00:14:08,330 --> 00:14:12,750 Speaker 1: the fact that this isn't okay. I mean, that tells 212 00:14:12,809 --> 00:14:16,890 Speaker 1: me that fraternity culture is rape culture. That's what that 213 00:14:16,929 --> 00:14:17,350 Speaker 1: tells me. 214 00:14:17,690 --> 00:14:21,590 Speaker 2: So Amy Ziering, who made The Hunting Ground, she is 215 00:14:21,610 --> 00:14:28,229 Speaker 2: a huge advocate. She has been remarkable and indispensable in 216 00:14:28,270 --> 00:14:32,830 Speaker 2: terms of really trying to change law. So she... has, 217 00:14:33,190 --> 00:14:35,190 Speaker 2: this has been, you know, one of the focuses of 218 00:14:35,230 --> 00:14:37,490 Speaker 2: her life. So it was interesting to talk to her 219 00:14:37,510 --> 00:14:39,730 Speaker 2: about what you're talking about in terms of the 50 boys. 220 00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:42,170 Speaker 2: And we spoke specifically about that. And she said, you know, 221 00:14:43,270 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: all 50 boys are not bad, right? Those 50 boys, 222 00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 2: we talked about how some of them are just brand 223 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,580 Speaker 2: new onto campus. They're it's, you know, they just got 224 00:14:53,620 --> 00:14:57,100 Speaker 2: into a frat. Their lives are just starting. They see it. 225 00:14:57,740 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: Maybe something, there's something occurs. They move on. They're just like, fuck. And, and, 226 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:08,340 Speaker 2: So those boys, but those boys are not rapists. That 227 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,540 Speaker 2: doesn't make them rapists. But what it makes them is 228 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,990 Speaker 2: she was putting it this way. They need to be educated. 229 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 2: And it doesn't matter if we say, you know, the 230 00:15:20,490 --> 00:15:23,050 Speaker 2: owner should not be on the woman to always. No. 231 00:15:23,190 --> 00:15:25,650 Speaker 2: It's not because it's not her fault. Right. 232 00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:26,870 Speaker 1: They have to be taught. 233 00:15:27,210 --> 00:15:29,610 Speaker 2: She said it. It doesn't mean that they're bad boys. 234 00:15:29,790 --> 00:15:32,860 Speaker 2: It means that they are in a packed culture. Yes. 235 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 2: Impact mentality. Yes. Boys impact mentalities. So as opposed to 236 00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:42,180 Speaker 2: just saying, you know, scrap the whole thing, scrap Greek life. 237 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,020 Speaker 2: What are we talking about? She said, well, she thought 238 00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:48,090 Speaker 2: that one of the best things that we could do 239 00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:52,030 Speaker 2: for young boys is to make them watch film, watch 240 00:15:52,050 --> 00:15:53,750 Speaker 2: The Hunting Ground or a film like it so that 241 00:15:53,790 --> 00:15:57,190 Speaker 2: they at least they understood, had awareness, right? These are 242 00:15:57,210 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 2: still kids. The boys' frontal lobes are not developed until 243 00:16:00,180 --> 00:16:03,230 Speaker 2: they're 26. Yes. And that's, I'm not excusing, believe me 244 00:16:03,250 --> 00:16:06,550 Speaker 2: when I tell you, I'm not excusing the behaviors. I'm 245 00:16:06,570 --> 00:16:08,450 Speaker 2: not excusing rape, but I'm saying that we're looking at 246 00:16:08,910 --> 00:16:11,770 Speaker 2: what's this big picture of what are we going to 247 00:16:11,830 --> 00:16:14,770 Speaker 2: do with this culture? 248 00:16:15,150 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: It's a cultural change. And when I say cultural, I'm 249 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: not even, I'm not talking about Greek life only. I'm 250 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,100 Speaker 1: talking about in society because there is something that these 251 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: young men felt either Oh, I don't want, which is 252 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:35,220 Speaker 1: very common for young people, teenagers especially. You don't want 253 00:16:35,260 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: to be the person that calls somebody out. You don't 254 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,740 Speaker 1: want to be ostracized. Those are real feelings and struggles 255 00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: when you're that age. As an adult too, but not 256 00:16:44,460 --> 00:16:49,830 Speaker 1: as much. So while understanding it's difficult to be the 257 00:16:49,870 --> 00:16:54,910 Speaker 1: person to say this is not okay, it is vital 258 00:16:55,450 --> 00:16:59,410 Speaker 1: to be the person who says no. This is not OK. 259 00:16:59,910 --> 00:17:04,810 Speaker 1: So we need to teach our young people, men and women, 260 00:17:05,010 --> 00:17:08,859 Speaker 1: but especially the men, that that is what being a 261 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:13,820 Speaker 1: man is. That's what being strong is. Not getting on 262 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:18,719 Speaker 1: the bandwagon and gang raping some young woman for seven hours, 263 00:17:18,790 --> 00:17:20,750 Speaker 1: and you're going to tell me that this young woman 264 00:17:21,380 --> 00:17:23,060 Speaker 1: Wanted to participate in this. 265 00:17:23,580 --> 00:17:24,699 Speaker 2: I'm not going to tell you that. No. I don't 266 00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:25,790 Speaker 2: believe that for one second. 267 00:17:25,810 --> 00:17:28,990 Speaker 1: And also the idea that you can say yes to 268 00:17:29,130 --> 00:17:31,970 Speaker 1: one thing and then you say no to something else. 269 00:17:32,510 --> 00:17:36,149 Speaker 1: So if this young woman said yes to having a 270 00:17:36,190 --> 00:17:39,430 Speaker 1: threesome with two other boys, and even if she said 271 00:17:39,490 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: yes and then went, meh, actually, I'm not cool with this. 272 00:17:44,590 --> 00:17:49,860 Speaker 1: guess what? You have to stop. And so this idea 273 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:55,820 Speaker 1: that somehow all of this is consensual is despicable. And 274 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:01,830 Speaker 1: this movie really covers how, I mean, again, Kathy Hochul, 275 00:18:02,050 --> 00:18:04,810 Speaker 1: she just was like, there's something that is so. 276 00:18:07,530 --> 00:18:10,389 Speaker 1: You know, she's so concrete about what she's saying and 277 00:18:10,430 --> 00:18:13,750 Speaker 1: speaking about her own experience at Syracuse university when there 278 00:18:13,770 --> 00:18:16,109 Speaker 1: was a series of rapes on the campus when she 279 00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:20,050 Speaker 1: was there and that, that nothing has changed. 280 00:18:20,470 --> 00:18:22,409 Speaker 2: That's what, yeah, that's what we were. That's what I 281 00:18:22,430 --> 00:18:26,300 Speaker 2: was literally taught. And almost it might, things may, um, 282 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 2: the hunting ground came out in 2015, um, that maybe 283 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,179 Speaker 2: things are actually worse now. Can you imagine? 284 00:18:32,220 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's awful. Um, And Casey Lee is the 2025 285 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: graduate who I was speaking about that was raped at 286 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,310 Speaker 1: Cornell and reported through Title IX. And she said it 287 00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:49,290 Speaker 1: was like one long gaslighting session. She said she felt 288 00:18:49,330 --> 00:18:52,330 Speaker 1: like I was screaming into a crowd that couldn't hear 289 00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:53,790 Speaker 1: me for a year. 290 00:18:53,810 --> 00:18:54,750 Speaker 2: Yeah. 291 00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: For a year. I mean, and the fact that, again, 292 00:19:00,100 --> 00:19:04,030 Speaker 1: she has to verbally state I was raped and I 293 00:19:04,130 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: didn't want it. And she has to plead with people 294 00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:12,500 Speaker 1: to believe her. This system is broken. It is broken. 295 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:14,859 Speaker 1: And this boy had to write a paper also. 296 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,570 Speaker 2: It's so stupid. I can't, that I can't get. What 297 00:19:17,590 --> 00:19:19,050 Speaker 2: do you think that you are going to accomplish? You're 298 00:19:19,070 --> 00:19:21,290 Speaker 2: going to give a boy who just raped a girl, 299 00:19:21,390 --> 00:19:22,770 Speaker 2: write a paper. Yep. 300 00:19:23,390 --> 00:19:26,810 Speaker 1: And he graduated and he was found guilty of sexual 301 00:19:26,869 --> 00:19:29,380 Speaker 1: assault so that we're all clear here. He was found 302 00:19:29,460 --> 00:19:32,419 Speaker 1: guilty of sexual assault. And then they asked him to 303 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,010 Speaker 1: write a paper, and he graduates. 304 00:19:34,590 --> 00:19:36,709 Speaker 2: They said that they didn't think that he was malicious? 305 00:19:37,210 --> 00:19:39,670 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like, oh, this was, you know, I 306 00:19:40,170 --> 00:19:41,750 Speaker 1: made a bad choice or something. 307 00:19:41,770 --> 00:19:44,330 Speaker 2: I don't know. 308 00:19:45,830 --> 00:19:48,750 Speaker 1: So, Anne, I was also, I don't know, were you 309 00:19:48,790 --> 00:19:53,659 Speaker 1: familiar with... Emma, the Columbia student who carried the mattress around? 310 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:55,689 Speaker 1: Did you know about this story before? 311 00:19:55,710 --> 00:19:57,930 Speaker 2: No, I didn't remember it. You did. 312 00:19:58,650 --> 00:20:01,590 Speaker 1: It is something else. This is a young woman. 313 00:20:01,690 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 2: Graduated with it. 314 00:20:03,010 --> 00:20:07,189 Speaker 1: Who, yep. who was raped and her rapist was allowed 315 00:20:07,250 --> 00:20:09,570 Speaker 1: to continue to be on campus with her and in 316 00:20:09,650 --> 00:20:13,510 Speaker 1: her classes at Columbia. So she carried the mattress that 317 00:20:13,550 --> 00:20:17,330 Speaker 1: she was raped on around everywhere with her. And she said, 318 00:20:17,369 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: as long as my rapist has to be here with me, 319 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,380 Speaker 1: I'm going to carry this mattress around. And she even 320 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: carried it across the stage at her graduation. And the 321 00:20:26,340 --> 00:20:31,980 Speaker 1: president of the university turned away from her. The same 322 00:20:32,060 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: Chanel Miller, who was raped by the swimmer, Brock Turner 323 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,220 Speaker 1: at Stanford. He served three months. 324 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:43,500 Speaker 2: So doing true crime documentaries, there's, it's just can be 325 00:20:43,580 --> 00:20:46,420 Speaker 2: so hard. And this particular story is just so absolutely 326 00:20:47,070 --> 00:20:50,550 Speaker 2: just devastating. The one thing I can say is I 327 00:20:50,590 --> 00:20:53,570 Speaker 2: am amazed when I see films like this, I'm amazed 328 00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:58,429 Speaker 2: at the resilience of these women. I am so, and 329 00:20:58,450 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 2: the courage that it takes to, Think about it. This 330 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 2: just happened. This story really just broke. How long ago? 331 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:04,429 Speaker 2: A few weeks ago? 332 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: Yes, in September. 333 00:21:06,020 --> 00:21:12,460 Speaker 2: And here is this woman who is now out of college, 334 00:21:13,619 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 2: bringing up her old notebooks, showing how she was feeling 335 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,619 Speaker 2: gaslit by Title IX, and that she was screaming. And 336 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,179 Speaker 2: she's able to talk about it. Nobody's paying her to 337 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:23,900 Speaker 2: talk about this. 338 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: That's right. 339 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:29,430 Speaker 2: And there's just this inner strength that is... just amazing 340 00:21:29,450 --> 00:21:31,890 Speaker 2: to me. And for Jane Doe, after all of this time, 341 00:21:31,910 --> 00:21:34,770 Speaker 2: and her lawyer talked about how she's gotten death threats, 342 00:21:34,830 --> 00:21:37,189 Speaker 2: how they've doxed her, how there have been people that 343 00:21:37,210 --> 00:21:41,100 Speaker 2: have called police to go to her house, claiming that 344 00:21:41,170 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 2: there is something going on in the house and her parents, 345 00:21:43,180 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 2: they've had guns put to their head and all of this, 346 00:21:46,260 --> 00:21:48,699 Speaker 2: you know, all of this trauma that's going on and 347 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,340 Speaker 2: it just pile, it's piling up and piling up. And yet, 348 00:21:52,100 --> 00:21:57,470 Speaker 2: you know, she was strong enough to, to you know, 349 00:21:57,619 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 2: really just, just say, bring it out. This is what 350 00:22:00,660 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 2: I'm going to do. It takes unimaginable courage. 351 00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: It really does. 352 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,620 Speaker 2: There's never, I'll say there's no bright side here. It's 353 00:22:07,660 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 2: just not, but I am always amazed by like young 354 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,300 Speaker 2: girls specifically in their resiliency. 355 00:22:13,020 --> 00:22:18,220 Speaker 1: I am too. It's like, it's what, it's what we 356 00:22:18,270 --> 00:22:22,389 Speaker 1: have to do, which I can't even believe that that's 357 00:22:23,210 --> 00:22:25,570 Speaker 1: what it is, but that's what it is. 358 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,550 Speaker 2: We talked about also, so in terms of like the 359 00:22:31,590 --> 00:22:37,110 Speaker 2: laws and the politics of all of this. So when 360 00:22:37,150 --> 00:22:41,570 Speaker 2: you think about politicians, right, male politicians, let's talk about specifically, 361 00:22:43,310 --> 00:22:48,060 Speaker 2: these men who are now governors or senators or whatever 362 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 2: it is, or mayors, or these are men that may 363 00:22:51,420 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 2: have been in an many, many, many cases have been 364 00:22:54,260 --> 00:22:58,430 Speaker 2: part of fraternity, a fraternity. They went to school, they went, 365 00:22:58,470 --> 00:23:01,450 Speaker 2: maybe they went through four-year college and then they went 366 00:23:01,470 --> 00:23:04,130 Speaker 2: and they did even more than that. And so there 367 00:23:04,230 --> 00:23:12,660 Speaker 2: is this, this frat bro mentality that pervades also our politics, 368 00:23:13,060 --> 00:23:19,060 Speaker 2: our government, our institutions that are, you know, there to 369 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,230 Speaker 2: hold people accountable and, and, we talked about this yesterday. 370 00:23:23,250 --> 00:23:26,410 Speaker 2: I've seen other documentaries on it that that frat broke. 371 00:23:26,430 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 2: Cause I've done also documentaries on hazing and kids that 372 00:23:29,460 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 2: have died, you know, boys that have even died from 373 00:23:31,460 --> 00:23:33,619 Speaker 2: hazing deaths, but how hard it is to get laws 374 00:23:33,740 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 2: passed because so many politicians are so loyal to their frats. Yep. And, 375 00:23:40,270 --> 00:23:43,830 Speaker 2: and the four years they spent as, you know, brothers 376 00:23:44,090 --> 00:23:48,610 Speaker 2: in this fraternity and they are very attached to it. Right. 377 00:23:48,630 --> 00:23:50,500 Speaker 2: And they don't, They don't want it to stop. They 378 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 2: don't want the traditions to change. Right. 379 00:23:52,780 --> 00:23:56,070 Speaker 1: Like, oh, I'm sorry. You don't want the tradition of 380 00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:58,350 Speaker 1: gang raping women to change. 381 00:23:58,850 --> 00:23:59,409 Speaker 2: Well, sorry. 382 00:23:59,550 --> 00:24:00,350 Speaker 1: It has to change. 383 00:24:00,390 --> 00:24:02,510 Speaker 2: It's when you say, when you want, like, I don't 384 00:24:02,530 --> 00:24:04,190 Speaker 2: know how you feel, Lisa. Do you feel like Greek 385 00:24:04,210 --> 00:24:06,690 Speaker 2: life should just be abolished at this point? I don't. 386 00:24:06,730 --> 00:24:09,450 Speaker 1: Here's what I think. I was not, I mean, I 387 00:24:09,490 --> 00:24:12,070 Speaker 1: went to the Eugene Lang College at the Dew School 388 00:24:12,109 --> 00:24:15,550 Speaker 1: University in New York City. It's the most progressive, you know, 389 00:24:15,570 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: there were no fraternities or sororities there. So I don't 390 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,580 Speaker 1: have personal experience with it. My husband does, and he's 391 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,020 Speaker 1: got very good friends still from his fraternity. I will say, 392 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,820 Speaker 1: when brains are not fully formed, as we just said, 393 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: and it is the first time that people are away 394 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: from home and have access to essentially unbridled freedom, and 395 00:24:41,900 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: they're drinking perhaps for the first time, doing drugs for 396 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,980 Speaker 1: the first time, And then having to do all of 397 00:24:50,020 --> 00:24:54,340 Speaker 1: these stupid things in order to be accepted into a group, 398 00:24:55,460 --> 00:24:58,540 Speaker 1: you're setting yourself up for disaster. That, to me, is 399 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:06,050 Speaker 1: like a terrible, terrible system. So do I think the 400 00:25:06,150 --> 00:25:11,390 Speaker 1: idea of community and connection is good and important? Absolutely, 401 00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:14,390 Speaker 1: I do. Do I think some of those things need 402 00:25:14,430 --> 00:25:21,030 Speaker 1: to change? Absolutely. When you have to embarrass yourself, humiliate yourself, 403 00:25:21,250 --> 00:25:27,570 Speaker 1: do something dangerous, drink to the point of nearly injuring yourself, 404 00:25:27,810 --> 00:25:32,830 Speaker 1: how is that a positive sign of connecting with people 405 00:25:33,369 --> 00:25:35,250 Speaker 1: and creating community? 406 00:25:35,570 --> 00:25:40,330 Speaker 2: I've done podcasts about hazing deaths, right? So this is 407 00:25:40,369 --> 00:25:42,670 Speaker 2: not about rape. This is about boys that were forced 408 00:25:42,730 --> 00:25:47,300 Speaker 2: to drink until they died. Right. And the parents and 409 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,420 Speaker 2: the laws that were passed after that. But the Greek system, 410 00:25:51,660 --> 00:25:56,470 Speaker 2: and again, I co-host a podcast called Dirty Rush, and 411 00:25:56,970 --> 00:26:00,010 Speaker 2: I was in a sorority. And there are so many 412 00:26:00,090 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 2: wonderful things that I can say about Greek life. And 413 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 2: there's also this other dirty, dark side of it. 414 00:26:21,550 --> 00:26:24,929 Speaker 1: It sounds very cult-like to me. I don't mean your experience. 415 00:26:25,050 --> 00:26:28,710 Speaker 1: I mean, these things that I hear of this kind 416 00:26:28,750 --> 00:26:31,750 Speaker 1: of like extreme behavior. And then you have to have 417 00:26:31,790 --> 00:26:34,149 Speaker 1: the bro code where you can't, you have to support 418 00:26:34,210 --> 00:26:37,580 Speaker 1: each other and you never like at all costs. That 419 00:26:37,670 --> 00:26:38,820 Speaker 1: is a cult to me. 420 00:26:39,020 --> 00:26:42,740 Speaker 2: I've never, I've never, I never personally experienced anything like this. 421 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 2: I never knew. I'm not saying it didn't happen. I 422 00:26:45,260 --> 00:26:47,540 Speaker 2: had never was confided in by one of my sorority 423 00:26:47,580 --> 00:26:51,300 Speaker 2: sisters that she had been assaulted. I, I didn't know anything. 424 00:26:52,130 --> 00:26:54,660 Speaker 2: boys that had, you know, been hazed to the point 425 00:26:54,859 --> 00:26:57,740 Speaker 2: where they were in danger. I didn't know from that. 426 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,620 Speaker 2: So my experience was, you know, really fun, like relationships 427 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,479 Speaker 2: with girls and mixers and matches and football games and, and, 428 00:27:06,780 --> 00:27:10,629 Speaker 2: and having these traditions. And well, that's what, that's what 429 00:27:10,670 --> 00:27:13,770 Speaker 2: I experienced. That's what my other two co-hosts experience. And 430 00:27:13,790 --> 00:27:16,530 Speaker 2: I think that hopefully please God is what most kids 431 00:27:17,150 --> 00:27:21,330 Speaker 2: that participate in Greek in Greek life experience. Right. So, um, 432 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:28,420 Speaker 2: But there is this underbelly that is unacceptable and has 433 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:33,669 Speaker 2: to change. I don't know how because it hasn't changed 434 00:27:33,770 --> 00:27:35,189 Speaker 2: since the movie Hunting Ground came out. 435 00:27:35,530 --> 00:27:36,909 Speaker 1: So I think there has to be some kind of 436 00:27:36,930 --> 00:27:43,350 Speaker 1: accountability that extends beyond writing a paper. So Cornell has 437 00:27:43,390 --> 00:27:47,830 Speaker 1: hired former Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates to lead an 438 00:27:47,970 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: independent review of Do you have confidence that university can 439 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,649 Speaker 1: commission a truly independent investigation of itself? 440 00:27:57,210 --> 00:28:00,790 Speaker 2: You know, they have Letitia James. I want to say 441 00:28:00,810 --> 00:28:04,209 Speaker 2: she's the one that appointed, she's the attorney general, New 442 00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: York's attorney general. She was put on it, and I 443 00:28:07,859 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: want to say appointed the special prosecutor. But now she's being, 444 00:28:13,020 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 2: they want to take her off of the case because 445 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 2: she already has said basically something to the effect of, 446 00:28:18,670 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 2: I don't know what her wording was, but that something 447 00:28:23,619 --> 00:28:25,820 Speaker 2: fine that she thinks the boys are guilty right before 448 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 2: they've ever even, excuse me, been tried. And I don't know, 449 00:28:28,940 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: I don't know these, I don't know the answers to this. 450 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,330 Speaker 2: I don't know if, you know, again, I'm trying to 451 00:28:33,350 --> 00:28:36,210 Speaker 2: believe in the judicial system. I really am. And, and 452 00:28:37,070 --> 00:28:39,250 Speaker 2: clearly sometimes it fails. A lot of times it fails, 453 00:28:39,410 --> 00:28:43,930 Speaker 2: but I try to, you know, I try to have 454 00:28:43,970 --> 00:28:47,980 Speaker 2: hope that, that, due process will serve. I don't know 455 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:48,700 Speaker 2: what the answer is. 456 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,830 Speaker 1: I do think and hope that something will change from this. 457 00:28:52,050 --> 00:28:56,410 Speaker 1: So far, there still have been no criminal indictments, which 458 00:28:56,870 --> 00:29:01,330 Speaker 1: I am waiting for. I did want to call by 459 00:29:01,390 --> 00:29:04,670 Speaker 1: name the student journalists from the Cornell Daily Sun, which 460 00:29:05,060 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: they're a big part of this documentary, and they're super impressive. 461 00:29:08,740 --> 00:29:13,470 Speaker 1: And their names are Sophia Dasser and Cerise Cuspa. So 462 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: they're a big part of this documentary, and I'm wildly 463 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:24,459 Speaker 1: impressed with them just as human beings. And we could 464 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: talk about this for a long time. I feel like 465 00:29:26,220 --> 00:29:32,670 Speaker 1: they're telling us to stop talking. But I just think, hopefully, 466 00:29:33,430 --> 00:29:36,590 Speaker 1: some real concrete changes can be made. And when you 467 00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:39,970 Speaker 1: and I spoke with Chloe Akers on that episode of 468 00:29:40,050 --> 00:29:45,110 Speaker 1: of Dirty Rush, she is a Cornell graduate, former defense attorney, 469 00:29:45,230 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: works in politics, wildly intelligent and well-versed in all of this. And, 470 00:29:53,180 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: you know, she gave very specific things that could change 471 00:29:56,340 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: and you know, first and foremost is there have to 472 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:05,460 Speaker 1: be repercussions that are real and that are legal and, 473 00:30:05,980 --> 00:30:09,140 Speaker 1: you know, that are, that will deter people from thinking 474 00:30:09,180 --> 00:30:11,460 Speaker 1: that they can just get away with this stuff. First 475 00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:11,780 Speaker 1: of all. 476 00:30:12,420 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 2: Right. Listen, I mean, times they are changing. We had 477 00:30:16,100 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 2: a big election yesterday and, you know, I don't know, this, 478 00:30:20,660 --> 00:30:24,850 Speaker 2: this country is, has been in a turmoil and a 479 00:30:24,870 --> 00:30:28,300 Speaker 2: really bad place and very divided. Maybe, good things are coming. 480 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:28,860 Speaker 2: I hope so. 481 00:30:28,900 --> 00:30:29,540 Speaker 1: I hope so. 482 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 2: I hope that we, this is all just so, so depressing. And, 483 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,820 Speaker 2: and I am, my daughter had started college. She was 484 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,740 Speaker 2: about to start it. She was embarking on a journey 485 00:30:41,820 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: right now. And I have friends whose daughters are, I 486 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 2: would be fit to be tied. I don't know. I 487 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know. I feel so, you know, just, 488 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,430 Speaker 2: just so frightened for her. And am I doing the 489 00:30:53,450 --> 00:30:56,690 Speaker 2: right thing? Even sending her. Right. So there's that. And 490 00:30:56,770 --> 00:30:59,460 Speaker 2: I didn't, that's not how I felt when my daughter 491 00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 2: went to college and left for college. I didn't have 492 00:31:01,140 --> 00:31:03,459 Speaker 2: that worry, but things are now maybe because things, these 493 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,970 Speaker 2: things are coming to light and Jane Doe has been 494 00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:08,550 Speaker 2: brave enough to bring it out, you know, and it's 495 00:31:08,570 --> 00:31:11,130 Speaker 2: going to give us a chance to, to prep our 496 00:31:11,150 --> 00:31:12,770 Speaker 2: girls and to talk to our boys. 497 00:31:13,550 --> 00:31:18,610 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think first and foremost, boys need to be 498 00:31:20,270 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: told that that's you, you, a real man is someone 499 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,290 Speaker 1: who defends a woman and, not a woman who exploits. 500 00:31:29,110 --> 00:31:32,050 Speaker 2: And, but I don't, I do not think that we 501 00:31:32,090 --> 00:31:35,390 Speaker 2: have to prepare our girls. I that's not, and that's 502 00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:37,820 Speaker 2: just the facts. That's not blaming them. That's not putting 503 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 2: the onus on them alone. It is just necessary. It 504 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,660 Speaker 2: is not. Yes. Oh yeah, it is. We have, that is, 505 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,860 Speaker 2: I think that's why we talked about it. But watching 506 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,580 Speaker 2: fill my hunting grounds or talking about Cornell and, and, 507 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,460 Speaker 2: it just has to happen. It has to happen. I 508 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,940 Speaker 2: think in schools, it has to be a prerequisite for 509 00:31:58,980 --> 00:32:02,740 Speaker 2: starting college in my humble opinion. And whether or not 510 00:32:02,780 --> 00:32:05,670 Speaker 2: it's fair or it's okay, like our girls have to 511 00:32:05,690 --> 00:32:06,850 Speaker 2: be schooled in. 512 00:32:07,870 --> 00:32:09,070 Speaker 1: Yeah, they do. 513 00:32:11,010 --> 00:32:11,370 Speaker 2: They do. 514 00:32:11,730 --> 00:32:15,590 Speaker 1: And I, as, as deeply upsetting as I find that, 515 00:32:15,710 --> 00:32:17,070 Speaker 1: that is, that's the truth. 516 00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:18,450 Speaker 2: We do. Yeah. 517 00:32:18,610 --> 00:32:23,430 Speaker 1: So this case is still very much unfolding and, um, I, 518 00:32:23,830 --> 00:32:27,170 Speaker 1: on a personal note, hope that there are indictments and 519 00:32:27,210 --> 00:32:33,570 Speaker 1: that people are brought to justice. And I hope that 520 00:32:33,650 --> 00:32:39,620 Speaker 1: Jane Doe finds some solace in the groundswell of support 521 00:32:39,740 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: that she has received from complete strangers, from her classmates, 522 00:32:45,620 --> 00:32:49,950 Speaker 1: from everyone on that campus. And I do recommend watching this, 523 00:32:50,090 --> 00:32:55,390 Speaker 1: Instadocs Jane Doe versus Cornell. It's only 35 minutes. 524 00:32:55,410 --> 00:32:57,870 Speaker 2: I always thought about the title. It's not Cornell 7. 525 00:32:57,870 --> 00:33:01,130 Speaker 2: It's versus Cornell. Yeah. I thought that was sort of telling. Yeah. 526 00:33:01,150 --> 00:33:03,150 Speaker 2: Because it was their hand. The film is really, of course, 527 00:33:03,190 --> 00:33:06,470 Speaker 2: it's about what happened, but it's also about as important. 528 00:33:07,060 --> 00:33:09,410 Speaker 2: It's about the school's mishandling of it. Mm-hmm. 529 00:33:09,940 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: And these kids, like I said, they're very articulate, all 530 00:33:14,540 --> 00:33:20,290 Speaker 1: of them. And several said that they... They were failed 531 00:33:20,410 --> 00:33:25,219 Speaker 1: by the university. And they're the kids. And remember, we 532 00:33:25,260 --> 00:33:28,700 Speaker 1: spoke to the journalist on another podcast who was on 533 00:33:28,740 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: the ground at Cornell, who was talking to us from there. 534 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: And he said, I just spoke to someone that said, 535 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:39,610 Speaker 1: we're the kids. We want the adults to help here. 536 00:33:40,250 --> 00:33:43,030 Speaker 1: Why are we the ones that are having to do this? 537 00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:45,330 Speaker 1: And I thought that was such a poignant thought. They 538 00:33:45,370 --> 00:33:51,740 Speaker 1: are the kids. where, what happened to the administration? 539 00:33:52,570 --> 00:33:56,229 Speaker 2: Well, to be continued because this case is clearly we're 540 00:33:56,250 --> 00:33:58,510 Speaker 2: not at the end of it. So we will keep 541 00:33:58,530 --> 00:34:01,790 Speaker 2: following it, you guys, and sharing our thoughts with you 542 00:34:02,370 --> 00:34:04,530 Speaker 2: as long as you'll have us. Exactly. 543 00:34:04,550 --> 00:34:08,190 Speaker 1: And I'll try to, I try to keep it in, 544 00:34:08,210 --> 00:34:09,850 Speaker 1: you know, I just, I can't always. 545 00:34:10,969 --> 00:34:14,170 Speaker 2: I think it's exactly. I mean, I, I love listening 546 00:34:14,190 --> 00:34:16,670 Speaker 2: to you and I talked about this also, but we 547 00:34:16,690 --> 00:34:21,380 Speaker 2: both had full lives and they've included some, some things 548 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,899 Speaker 2: that are, that I relate to a lot about what's 549 00:34:23,980 --> 00:34:27,410 Speaker 2: going on right now. And sexual assault is unfortunately all 550 00:34:27,450 --> 00:34:30,750 Speaker 2: too common. And, you know, we've that, so it is 551 00:34:30,790 --> 00:34:32,950 Speaker 2: very sensitive. It's, we're always going to get our feelings 552 00:34:33,010 --> 00:34:34,989 Speaker 2: of course are going, we're going to. 553 00:34:34,969 --> 00:34:35,950 Speaker 1: Be to get involved. 554 00:34:36,630 --> 00:34:37,370 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 555 00:34:37,910 --> 00:34:41,950 Speaker 1: Well, as always, Jen, I really appreciate these conversations with 556 00:34:41,989 --> 00:34:47,049 Speaker 1: you and, um, It helps to be able to kind 557 00:34:47,090 --> 00:34:53,569 Speaker 1: of break down and unravel these difficult topics. I feel 558 00:34:53,590 --> 00:34:56,930 Speaker 1: like it's important that we talk about them with each other, 559 00:34:57,010 --> 00:34:57,650 Speaker 1: with our kids. 560 00:34:58,660 --> 00:35:01,540 Speaker 2: Agreed. Yep. Thank you, my friend. All right. 561 00:35:01,580 --> 00:35:03,180 Speaker 1: Thank you. Until next time.