WEBVTT - The Real Heavyweights 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:04.359 This episode contains descriptions of disordered eating and diet behavior. 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:07.800 This language could be sensitive for some listeners, so please 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:12.559 take care. Camp Shane, like any other summer camp, had 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:15.920 a set of traditions that kept it afloat. Starting in 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:18.880 the late nineties, one of those traditions was watching the 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:22.799 movie Heavyweights, the Disney movie from nineteen ninety five about 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.880 a boy's weight loss camp. In the film, a group 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:30.160 of campers hold an uprising against the camp's oppressive, militaristic 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:32.120 leader played by Ben Stiller. 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.280 Attention, campers. Lunch has been canceled today due to lack 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.599 of hustle. Deal with it. 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:43.800 It's based at least partially on Camp Shane. I actually 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.120 talked to the director of the movie, Steve Brill. 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:49.600 My name is Steve Brill. I think I was built 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.320 as Steven Brill earlier in my career, but I dropped 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:54.000 the "N". I thought it was too pretentious. 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.520 Great! Okay, I won't call you Steven then. Steve told 0:00:57.560 --> 0:00:59.960 me that the idea for the movie came from an advertisement. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.888 When he was a kid, Steve saw the notorious Camp 0:01:03.888 --> 0:01:06.720 Shane ad in the back of the New York Times magazine. 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:09.759 You know, the one with a skinny kid holding out 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:12.440 his waistband inches away from his body to show off 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:14.120 how much weight he'd lost. 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:16.880 I would always stare at that ad, going Wow, what 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:18.360 would it be like to go there? 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:23.560 Years later, Steve was working in Hollywood brainstorming movie ideas 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.080 with then rookie producer Judd Apatow, 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:28.440 And I told him that about that ad. He said, 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:30.800 we have to make it that. So that's how it 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.479 became about a weight loss camp, and particularly about Camp Shane, 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:37.839 because that was the only camp that we knew about. 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.200 If you know anything about Camp Shane, then when you 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.679 watch Heavyweights you can see the parallels. There are kids 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.880 smuggling candy. There are weigh ins, there's a bus driver 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:50.720 pretending to pull into a fast food drive through before 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:53.760 course correcting in the direction of camp. There are even 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:54.400 go karts, 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.120 Go carts! How many times can you go on the go carts? 0:01:58.160 --> 0:01:59.600 As much as you want, Jerry. 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:04.560 Jerry, if you went to Camp Shane, you'd be sorely disappointed. 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:10.360 The go carts were always broken. For many kids who 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:13.120 had not yet been to Camp Shane, Heavyweights was their 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:17.120 point of reference, and the movie made camp look crazy fun. 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.480 When I was interviewing people for this show. It came 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:22.160 up again and again. 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:23.320 Movies like Heavyweights. 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:24.640 That movie Heavyweights. 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:26.080 I think we all saw Heavyweights. 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:28.639 All I really had naturally was Heavyweights in my mind. 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:30.720 It was like the movie Heavyweights. 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:35.880 But Camp Shane wasn't quite like Heavyweights, not really. Even 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.520 Steve Brill could see that. During his research, he watched 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:43.000 several promotional videos from fat camps all over the country. 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:45.640 The Camp Shane when it was always just something a 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.320 little off about it. I remember being bummed ultimately that 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.160 the camp that I was hoping would be the model 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:57.200 camp was shady. 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:03.320 This is Camp Shame. I'm your host, Kelsey Snelling. Today 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:07.559 we're talking about Camp Shane's new ownership, mother son squabbles 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:13.280 and an innocent film screening gone awry. Like the camp 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.680 in Heavyweights, Camp Shane passed hands from an older married 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:20.200 couple to a young man with a fresh perspective. But 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:24.080 instead of the fitness guru Ben Stiller, Camp Shane had 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:29.280 David Ettenberg. By nineteen ninety, he had been camp director 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:33.440 for eight years and business was booming. The proof was 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:37.119 in the sugar free pudding. Shane's tax returns that year 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:41.320 showed profits of two hundred and sixty thousand dollars. Adjusted 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:44.440 for twenty twenty five, that's upwards of six hundred and 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:48.480 thirty thousand dollars, and that's just from the nine weeks 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.800 that Camp Shane was open each year, and enrollment was rising. 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.400 By nineteen ninety five, four hundred kids had signed up 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:58.800 to go to Camp Shane. It had come a long 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:01.480 way since the twenty nine campers of its opening year 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:11.480 in nineteen sixty nine. Looking back at the nineties, there 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:15.440 are certain things you might remember, like Friends, Seinfeld and 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:20.080 the Simpsons dominating television, or Sir Mix A Lot's "Baby 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:21.560 Got Back" on the radio. 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:26.200 I liked big butts and I can not lie. You otha brothas can't deny. 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:29.680 Maybe you have memories of walking around your hometown mall 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.000 or sitting at home in the computer room exploring the 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:39.799 World Wide Web. These cultural touchstones might make you sigh 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:44.440 with happy nostalgia, But there was another cultural undercurrent roaring 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:49.599 through the nineties, fat phobia. Fat Phobia wasn't new, but 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.360 as pop culture shifted and advertising became all the more pervasive, 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:57.360 it was taking on fresh tactics to convince Americans that 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:01.239 being fat was something to fear, something to be mocked, 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:05.760 and if you were fat you'd better spend serious chunks 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:08.679 of your hard earned money trying to slim down, 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:13.280 And. Protein can help you keep missiles while you lose fat. 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.919 So make the special k breakfast part of your daily 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:18.280 diet and exercise plan. 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.240 That's why I chose the Ultra Slim Fast Plan and 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:23.440 I lost fifty pounds in six months. 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:28.760 Your body can be trim toned, firm, slim, fit, and 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:32.560 in shape in just eight weeks. Now there's the Sports 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.800 Illustrated Super Shape Up program fully sponsored by Diet PEPSI. 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:41.120 Trim toned, firm, slim, fit and in shape. I think 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.440 we get the point. When you weren't explicitly being sold 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:49.160 thinness like in those ads, it was still implicitly being 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:53.240 marketed towards you. Fashion magazines were filled with images of 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:57.120 emaciated models with pale skin and dark circles under their eyes, 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:02.520 a look dubbed heroin chic without an ounce of irony. 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.040 These models weren't selling diet pills or exercise plans, but 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:11.359 they were communicating the idea that thinness equals beauty, even 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:13.960 if it's a thinness that can only be obtained through 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:19.040 objectively unhealthy means like drug addiction or disordered eating, and 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.520 in TV and movies, fat people were constantly the butt 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:26.000 of the jokes, once again sending the message that being 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:31.040 fat is abnormal and shameful. Take the show Friends, for instance, 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:33.800 it was filled with jokes about Monica's weight. 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:35.800 Oh oh, and I'm sorry that I said you were 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:40.239 a cow in high school. That's okay, I was a cow. 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.920 I know, I'm just sorry I said it. 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:49.480 All of these signals were affecting people's psyches. For example, 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:53.600 in nineteen ninety four, Esquire magazine printed an article revealing 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:56.839 that fifty four percent of women surveyed would rather be 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:00.039 hit by a truck than be fat. Think about that, 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:08.600 women would rather be seriously injured or die than be fat. 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.280 This fear of fatness could have stemmed from the fact 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.240 that between nineteen eighty and the late nineties, childhood obesity 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:22.080 rates in America nearly tripled, hovering around fifteen percent. In 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:26.240 nineteen ninety seven, the World Health Organization declared obesity as 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:31.600 a major public health problem and a global epidemic. Around 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:35.400 the same time, the American Heart Association added obesity to 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:38.480 its list of major risk factors for heart disease and 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:43.560 heart attacks. Then, in nineteen ninety eight, the National Institutes 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:48.640 of Health changed body mass index or BMI categories. For 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.840 those who don't know, BMI is a medical screening tool 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:54.559 that measures the ratio of your height to your weight. 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.480 The resulting number supposedly indicates how much body fat you 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:06.480 have. Your number places you into four categories underweight, healthy weight, overweight, or obese. 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.400 Under the new guidelines, a BMI of twenty six or 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:16.880 higher was considered overweight. With this change, millions of Americans 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.360 went to bed normal sized and then woke up overweight 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:25.440 without gaining a single pound. The National Institutes of Health 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:28.400 told reporters at the time that the changes were necessary 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:33.840 because of studies linking extra weight to health problems. Parents 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:37.280 and physicians alike now had a medical cause to prescribe 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:41.520 fat camp to even more children. But here's the thing. 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:45.920 BMI actually does a crap job of assessing how healthy 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.640 someone is, and it was never meant to assess the 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:50.840 health of an individual in the first place. 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:55.079 It was developed by a Belgian mathematician in the eighteen hundreds. 0:08:55.600 --> 0:09:00.440 That's doctor Lisa Erlanger. She's a family physician, educator, activist, 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:04.840 and speaker who focuses on anti bias weight inclusive trauma 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:10.040 informed care for patients of all sizes and backgrounds. This mathematician, 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:14.960 named Adolphe Quetelet, was simply collecting data on averages. He never 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:19.200 intended for this to be used as a medical prescription. Plus, 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.880 he conducted his measurements only on men, and this was 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:27.080 nearly two hundred years ago. Clearly, his findings are far 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:29.600 from applicable in most modern societies. 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:34.560 Those ideas were adopted by eugenicists people trying to create 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:40.680 the ideal human. And also later this BMI, which was 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:44.360 never intended to measure the health of an individual, particularly 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.480 not in our modern community, started to be used as 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.160 a way to assess the health of an individual. 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:54.200 And here's another thing. BMI does not take into account 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:58.439 muscle mass, body composition, or really anything other than height 0:09:58.559 --> 0:09:59.160 versus weight. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.480 BMS is also just an incredibly poor predictor of how 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.719 much body fat a person has. And we know this intuitively, right. 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:09.719 We know two hundred and fifty pound people who are 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.040 all muscle, and we know one hundred and fifty pound 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:15.280 people who are all fat. And so the idea that 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.000 just taking these two measurements would tell us how fat 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.560 a person is is intuitively ridiculous. 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:24.600 Researchers have found that BMI alone is not a good 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:28.600 indicator of mortality risk. In some studies, people in the 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:33.320 overweight category actually had the lowest mortality rate of anyone. 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.880 Obese people fare better than any other group when faced 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:42.079 with congestive heart failure, certain bypass surgeries, and hypertensive heart disease. 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:46.880 Ironic because doctors often use BMI to determine the types 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:50.520 of treatment a patient will receive, and a patient's BMI 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.840 can even affect their insurance premiums. 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.920 And so not only was this never intended to be 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.000 a measure of health, the way we use it is 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.480 clearly not a reflection of health. 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:09.280 Contrary to popular belief, it's extremely possible to be healthy 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:13.520 and fat at the same time. Yet in nineties America 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:18.960 and at Camp Shane, that possibility was completely unrecognized. In fact, 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:23.400 obesity was starting to be viewed as a disease. To 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:27.400 weight inclusive health experts like doctor Rachel Milner. These attempts 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:29.839 to turn body size into a disease not only to 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.960 humanize people and put blame where it doesn't belong, it 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:36.720 also sets people up for ineffective treatment. It's why she 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:40.000 actually avoids using the words obese or overweight. 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.640 This language and this attempt to identify body size as 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:48.559 a disease is really a way for the pharmaceutical companies 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.880 and for the diet industry to make money. If we 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.959 say bodies are a disease and then they come up 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:59.280 with these so called interventions. This is a multi multi 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:00.760 billion dollar industry. 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.600 A condition can be classified as a disease if it 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:09.640 impairs the normal functioning of the body, but millions of 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:12.360 fat people have no negative symptoms at all. In fact, 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:16.800 fat storage is actually the human body working properly. It's 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.840 a key component of our species survival. With this in mind, 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:24.280 Doctor Millner doesn't think weight should factor into medical treatment. 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.800 The only role that body size should play in medical 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:33.359 treatment is if the dosage of a medication or anesthesia 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:38.400 or a blood pressure cuff needs to be adjusted to 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.520 make sure that it's safe and effective for the size 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:45.720 of the person's body. Outside of that, it is unethical 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.840 to make body size a part of treatment. 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:55.240 So yes, Americans were getting fatter throughout the nineties. I mean, 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.040 how could we not when eleven servings of grain were 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.079 at the base of the food pyramid. But BMI was 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.520 also screwing with obesity data, we can now look back 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:08.079 and realize it wasn't really the health catastrophe the National 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.160 Institutes of Health or the World Health Organization would have 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:15.360 us believe. But at the time, rising childhood obesity rates 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:19.040 and rampant fat phobia and popular culture meant more parents 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:22.480 were concerned about their children's weight and more people were 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:28.520 interested in Camp Shane than ever. Behind the scenes, Camp 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.960 Shane was going through some major strife. Selma and her 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.319 son David were caught up in a battle for ownership 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:38.240 and things were about to get nasty. Not yet ready 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.400 to pass the reins to her son, Selma still owned 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.920 the camp, but David was camp director and partial owner. 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:47.880 He and his wife, Ziporah moved into the house in 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.840 the center of camp and lived there. During the summer season, 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.360 Salma moved into a house across the street from camp. 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.240 That meant David had more power and presence than ever before. 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:04.280 Under David's reign things were different because his motivation wasn't necessarily 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:06.840 to help kids lose weight like it was for Selma. 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:12.120 The biggest change between Selma and David's era is that 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.200 you could tell by lots of little things that it 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:20.239 had become a business, a for profit business. 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:25.240 That's Sue Steinberg, who you heard from last episode. By 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.320 the nineties, she was working at Camp Shane as a lifeguard, 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:31.840 swim instructor, and later on head of the pool. She 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:35.040 witnessed what she saw as a rocky transition from Selma 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:35.560 to David. 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:40.600 I did recognize the signs of the lack of love 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:46.080 for this community and with that said,um, giving David Ettenberg 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.840 the benefit of the doubt. To him, it was a business, 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.960 you know. Like he never purported to have started a 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:58.640 camp for fat people to create a bubble of societal 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:04.840 you know, marginalized people who could explore their identities. You know, like, 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:09.400 he never would have said that Camp Shane was supposed 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.400 to be that to him, he would. Have said, you know, 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:16.200 I am running a business, and he ran it as 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:17.640 such for sure. 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:22.080 Another person who noticed this was Jenna Hopkins. Jenna was 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.480 a group leader throughout the nineties. She saw David's leadership 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:27.960 style grow increasingly lax over time. 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:32.400 It seemed to be better managed by the owners and 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.240 staff in the beginning. It just seemed like maybe it 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:40.440 was too big for them to properly manage, and maybe 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:43.440 weren't even really, we're just taking the money and running, 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.080 you know. Just it's all right, Well that happens who cares, 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:48.320 you know. That was sort of the mentality that it 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.000 seemed to be as the years went on. 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:55.800 What happened next was an avalanche. According to reporting from 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.920 Bloomberg BusinessWeek, Selma insisted that David and his wife Ziporah 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.880 live in their house on camp all year long, even 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:07.040 outside of the summer season. David and Ziporah said no. 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:11.440 According to David, Selma then sent the sheriff to evict 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.240 them from their on campus house. Selma later claimed that 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:19.120 David abruptly announced he was quitting during the crucial hiring 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:24.000 period in April before camp began. We're sure whether or 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:28.520 not he actually did. Because of this debacle, which may 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:31.960 or may not have even happened, Selma and her husband, Irving, 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:36.920 furiously filed a lawsuit to invalidate their previous agreement, the 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.520 one that said David would one day own the Camp. 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:44.480 David then used his minority shareholder status to dissolve the company. 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:49.440 An ugly legal battle ensued. In the end, both parties 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:50.800 agreed that David would. 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:55.200 Purchase the Camp for one point two million dollars. By 0:16:55.280 --> 0:17:01.000 nineteen ninety three, David was the sole owner of Camp Shane. 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.679 Though David and his mother were often at odds, he 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:08.359 did continue a few of her business practices, like hiring 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.760 counselors through exchange programs like Camp America, an organization that 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:16.040 sends camp counselors from other countries across the globe to 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:20.480 America for summer jobs. This saved David money because Camp 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:24.119 America counselors generally worked for lower wages than state side 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:34.200 counselors would, and David loved saving money. Camp America counselors 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.320 are some of the central characters behind the grandest of 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.200 Camp Shane lore, like the supplier of the M and 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:44.879 M cartel in episode one, Remember Heavyweights. Each year, a 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.639 counselor would drive to the Blockbuster in town to rent 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:50.640 the VHS tape and host a screening in the gymnasium. 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.600 And yes, I know some of you listening are probably 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:58.160 googling Blockbuster and VHS tape right about now. But one 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.400 year the screening didn't white go according to plan. 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:06.119 There was the operations manager then was from Eastern Europe 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.720 and he had a heavy accent, and he was told 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.720 to go to Blockbuster and rent Heavyweights. Well, I don't 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:16.639 know why we didn't have it at the camp. We 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.679 watch it every year. God bless him. He goes to 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:37.480 the video store and he asks for Heevy weights. He's like, I want the Heevy weights, the Heevy weights. And they're like, what? Heevy weights? He is like, yeah, Heevy, Heevy weights. And he is like, all right. So he gets what he thinks is Heavyweights the, you know, funny, Ben Stiller comedy Heavyweights. 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:53.000 That’s Nelson Jancaterino. You heard from him in episode 1. He was a camper at Camp Shane for several years before working as a counselor for several more summers. But back to the story: the counselor rented the tape and brought it back to camp 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:57.119 And they put in what they think is Heavyweights, and 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:03.080 they turn it off when it wasn't Heavyweights. It was Heevyweights, which 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:10.320 was this graphic porno. It only lasted for like a 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:12.119 few seconds to like Big Dog, who was like a 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:16.560 notorious counselor, jumped in front of the projector. But all 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:18.800 the kids whore like five seconds saw this like graphic 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:19.440 sex act. 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:23.040 We're talking around one hundred kids, some as young as 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:29.200 eight years old being exposed to graphic pornography. Somehow, despite 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:33.520 this mishap, the Heavyweight screenings continued with the actual movie. 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:40.399 Of course. Another Camp America counselor was a British former 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:45.400 race car driver named Simon Greenwood. Merryl Winter, a camper 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.520 and then counselor throughout the eighties, nineties, and two thousands, 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:50.240 worked closely with Simon. 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.120 All the girls fell in love with Simon. He had 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:57.679 an English accent, he was adorable, and he's meticulous, so 0:19:57.680 --> 0:19:59.080 he was always good at what he did. 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.520 If this were really like the movie Heavyweights, then Simon 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.560 would be Pat the encouraging counselor that all the kids 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:11.040 and fellow staffers love, only like the Lady Magnet version. 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:15.520 David loved Simon too, and soon David made him his 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:18.800 right hand man, and they were quite the character foils 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:21.480 to one another. Where David was distant, 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:23.960 He never took the time to get to know the kids, 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:27.080 he didn't know any of them. 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:28.800 Simon was invested. 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:32.879 He was a hard worker, he loved the kids, he 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:37.359 loved the concept of camp, and he was really the 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.680 backbone of that camp. It wouldn't have survived without him. 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:44.879 But Selma was still living across the street from camp, 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:49.000 and she didn't care how many passionate, hard working sidekicks 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:52.720 David had by his side. She challenged David at every turn. 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.000 She may have no longer been the camp's owner, but 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.760 she was still around, helping out in the office and 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.520 riding her golf cart on the campgrounds to yell at 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.760 kids for chewing gum. Even when she was off campus, 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.879 she never really left. She was known to watch whatever 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.200 she could from her house. If that sounds like I'm exaggerating, 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:14.679 I'm not. She sometimes sat on her porch with a 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:18.359 pair of binoculars to peer inside the camp. She even 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.119 contested the sale of the camp, claiming she felt pressure 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.159 to sell at a low price. Everyone could see the 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:28.000 continuing tension between Selma and David, including Merryl. 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:32.760 I saw they were feuding. You couldn't not see they 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:36.000 were feuding when they weren't talking. Yet they were sharing 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:38.560 an office together, and they were mother and son, so 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:42.560 it's really hard to fathom. But she installed a lock 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:46.840 on the door so if David walked out of the office, 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:51.119 she would just lock it from her seat, which was 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:51.920 kind of funny. 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:55.919 And these were the adults in charge of hundreds of children. 0:21:57.040 --> 0:22:00.800 Janna Hopkins, the group leader you heard from earlier, noticed 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:03.560 the rivalry between Selma and David as soon as she 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:06.280 stepped on camp for her first day of work. 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:08.879 Everybody knew that there was a battle going on. It 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:11.240 was just it was, you know, it permeated everything. 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:14.040 Janna was a single mom in Texas when she came 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:16.359 across an ad for Camp Shane in the back of 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:19.600 a teacher's magazine. She decided to apply and got a 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:20.720 job as a group leader. 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:23.000 Kind of thought, well, I'm going to make money. I 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:25.800 got an opportunity to be in the outdoors and maybe 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:28.360 lose some weight. Plus my kid camps for free. This 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:31.080 is pretty cool, and you escape the you know, one 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:33.120 thousand degree summers in Dallas. 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:42.040 Jana drove herself and her seven year old all the 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:45.639 way from Dallas to the Catskills. That's a crazy journey 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:48.360 for a single mom to make, but she did it. 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:52.399 After days on the road, Janna arrived in Ferndale and 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:54.760 drove into the center of Camp Shane. 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:57.360 So I drive in and I park, and we get out, 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:01.719 and I walk up to the you know, the window 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:06.720 of the office and this woman slams the window open 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:09.359 and she looks at me and she says, what do 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:14.080 you want? So I'm immediately thinking, oh, no. You know, 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:15.480 maybe I'm in the wrong place. 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:16.000 I don't know. 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:18.359 And I said hi, I said, my name is Janna, 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:20.640 and I said I'm supposed to be a group leader 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:23.119 this summer. And she looks at me and she says, 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:28.240 I didn't hire you. Go home, And I'm just standing 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:32.960 there with my kid going uh oh, I have to say, 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:34.840 I mean, so many things are running through my head. 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:38.440 I'm literally still standing there. And then David Ettenberg comes 0:23:38.440 --> 0:23:41.920 out of the office and he says, Janna, Janna, Janna its David. Don't worry about that. Just ignore her. That's my mother. And that was how I met Selma. 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:49.640 But Janna couldn't really ignore Selma. She kept making herself 0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:53.160 known and flexing power that she didn't really have anymore. 0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:56.119 One day, Janna took a group of her campers for 0:23:56.200 --> 0:23:59.119 a walk into town. One of the girls fell and 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:02.480 hurt her leg. It hurt so much she couldn't walk 0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:04.840 back to camp. So Janna ran back to camp to 0:24:04.880 --> 0:24:07.480 get her car and drove the girl to the infirmary 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:08.480 on campus. 0:24:08.880 --> 0:25:34.000 You know, no cell phones, I couldn't stop and whip my phone out and say, “Hey, I need somebody to come help me”. So I made the choice to go ahead and I ran, well, I didn't really run, but I went back to camp. So I got my keys, I got my car, and I came back and I picked her up - just her! And I took her back, and I took her to the infirmary, and I left my co-counselor with the other girls and said, you know, y'all going back. And the next morning I woke up where, in my cabin thing where I slept, and I heard something, and I opened my eyes and Selma was sitting right next to my bed in a chair. And I just looked at her and I said, Selma. And she said, did you put a camper in your car yesterday? And I mean, you know, I just woke up. I was, I was disoriented and I was just shocked. And I was like, yes, yes, I did. And she said, you're not allowed to do that. And I said, here's what happened, you know? And she said, you should have just walked back and got somebody. And I said, I just felt like I had to get her back as soon as I could. And so she just gave me– she kept saying me, I could get fired. And, and I was breaking rules and, and, and all these things. And I’m thinking to myself, man, She had some balls. And she had to have planned that out. She had to, she had to find out where I was living. She had to know which room was mine. She even brought a chair. I mean, there wasn't a chair in our room. 0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:38.800 Truly horrifying. Remember, at this point, Selma was no longer 0:25:38.840 --> 0:25:41.879 in charge, but that didn't stop her from trying to 0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:48.040 discipline staffers as if she were. Her presence still loomed large. 0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:50.000 And I honestly I was afraid of her. There are 0:25:50.040 --> 0:25:52.199 a lot of people who love her and have a 0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:55.359 lot of respect for her, But I didn't see or 0:25:55.440 --> 0:25:58.199 know that Selma. I just saw the one who was 0:25:58.680 --> 0:26:02.399 overwrought with the desire to get her camp back and 0:26:02.640 --> 0:26:04.280 would do anything she could to do that. 0:26:05.000 --> 0:26:08.520 Jana didn't know just how far Selma was willing to go. 0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:19.960 In nineteen ninety five, a smoke alarm went off in 0:26:20.040 --> 0:26:23.160 Selma's house across the street from Camp, prompting a visit 0:26:23.200 --> 0:26:28.760 from the fire department. The police investigated. Leslie, Selma's daughter 0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:32.800 and David's sister believed Selma started the fire herself, using 0:26:32.880 --> 0:26:37.879