1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:04,359 Kelsey Snelling: This episode contains descriptions of disordered eating and diet behavior. 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,800 Kelsey Snelling: This language could be sensitive for some listeners, so please 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:12,559 Kelsey Snelling: take care. Camp Shane, like any other summer camp, had 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,920 Kelsey Snelling: a set of traditions that kept it afloat. Starting in 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,880 Kelsey Snelling: the late nineties, one of those traditions was watching the 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,799 Kelsey Snelling: movie Heavyweights, the Disney movie from nineteen ninety five about 7 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,880 Kelsey Snelling: a boy's weight loss camp. In the film, a group 8 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,160 Kelsey Snelling: of campers hold an uprising against the camp's oppressive, militaristic 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,120 Kelsey Snelling: leader played by Ben Stiller. 10 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,280 Heavyweights Archival: Attention, campers. Lunch has been canceled today due to lack 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,599 Heavyweights Archival: of hustle. Deal with it. 12 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,800 Kelsey Snelling: It's based at least partially on Camp Shane. I actually 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,120 Kelsey Snelling: talked to the director of the movie, Steve Brill. 14 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,600 Steve: My name is Steve Brill. I think I was built 15 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,320 Steve: as Steven Brill earlier in my career, but I dropped 16 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:54,000 Steve: the "N". I thought it was too pretentious. 17 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,520 Kelsey Snelling: Great! Okay, I won't call you Steven then. Steve told 18 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,960 Kelsey Snelling: me that the idea for the movie came from an advertisement. 19 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,888 Kelsey Snelling: When he was a kid, Steve saw the notorious Camp 20 00:01:03,888 --> 00:01:06,720 Kelsey Snelling: Shane ad in the back of the New York Times magazine. 21 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:09,759 Kelsey Snelling: You know, the one with a skinny kid holding out 22 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,440 Kelsey Snelling: his waistband inches away from his body to show off 23 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:14,120 Kelsey Snelling: how much weight he'd lost. 24 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,880 Steve: I would always stare at that ad, going Wow, what 25 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:18,360 Steve: would it be like to go there? 26 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,560 Kelsey Snelling: Years later, Steve was working in Hollywood brainstorming movie ideas 27 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,080 Kelsey Snelling: with then rookie producer Judd Apatow, 28 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,440 Steve: And I told him that about that ad. He said, 29 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:30,800 Steve: we have to make it that. So that's how it 30 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,479 Steve: became about a weight loss camp, and particularly about Camp Shane, 31 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,839 Steve: because that was the only camp that we knew about. 32 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,200 Kelsey Snelling: If you know anything about Camp Shane, then when you 33 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,679 Kelsey Snelling: watch Heavyweights you can see the parallels. There are kids 34 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,880 Kelsey Snelling: smuggling candy. There are weigh ins, there's a bus driver 35 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,720 Kelsey Snelling: pretending to pull into a fast food drive through before 36 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,760 Kelsey Snelling: course correcting in the direction of camp. There are even 37 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:54,400 Kelsey Snelling: go karts, 38 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,120 Heavyweights Archival: Go carts! How many times can you go on the go carts? 39 00:01:58,160 --> 00:01:59,600 Heavyweights Archival: As much as you want, Jerry. 40 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,560 Kelsey Snelling: Jerry, if you went to Camp Shane, you'd be sorely disappointed. 41 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:10,360 Kelsey Snelling: The go carts were always broken. For many kids who 42 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,120 Kelsey Snelling: had not yet been to Camp Shane, Heavyweights was their 43 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,120 Kelsey Snelling: point of reference, and the movie made camp look crazy fun. 44 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,480 Kelsey Snelling: When I was interviewing people for this show. It came 45 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,160 Kelsey Snelling: up again and again. 46 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:23,320 Stephen: Movies like Heavyweights. 47 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:24,640 Seth: That movie Heavyweights. 48 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:26,080 Casey: I think we all saw Heavyweights. 49 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,639 Stephen: All I really had naturally was Heavyweights in my mind. 50 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:30,720 Nelson: It was like the movie Heavyweights. 51 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,880 Kelsey Snelling: But Camp Shane wasn't quite like Heavyweights, not really. Even 52 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,520 Kelsey Snelling: Steve Brill could see that. During his research, he watched 53 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,000 Kelsey Snelling: several promotional videos from fat camps all over the country. 54 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,640 Steve: The Camp Shane when it was always just something a 55 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,320 Steve: little off about it. I remember being bummed ultimately that 56 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,160 Steve: the camp that I was hoping would be the model 57 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:57,200 Steve: camp was shady. 58 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:03,320 Kelsey Snelling: This is Camp Shame. I'm your host, Kelsey Snelling. Today 59 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,559 Kelsey Snelling: we're talking about Camp Shane's new ownership, mother son squabbles 60 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:13,280 Kelsey Snelling: and an innocent film screening gone awry. Like the camp 61 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,680 Kelsey Snelling: in Heavyweights, Camp Shane passed hands from an older married 62 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,200 Kelsey Snelling: couple to a young man with a fresh perspective. But 63 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,080 Kelsey Snelling: instead of the fitness guru Ben Stiller, Camp Shane had 64 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:29,280 Kelsey Snelling: David Ettenberg. By nineteen ninety, he had been camp director 65 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,440 Kelsey Snelling: for eight years and business was booming. The proof was 66 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,119 Kelsey Snelling: in the sugar free pudding. Shane's tax returns that year 67 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:41,320 Kelsey Snelling: showed profits of two hundred and sixty thousand dollars. Adjusted 68 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,440 Kelsey Snelling: for twenty twenty five, that's upwards of six hundred and 69 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,480 Kelsey Snelling: thirty thousand dollars, and that's just from the nine weeks 70 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,800 Kelsey Snelling: that Camp Shane was open each year, and enrollment was rising. 71 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,400 Kelsey Snelling: By nineteen ninety five, four hundred kids had signed up 72 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,800 Kelsey Snelling: to go to Camp Shane. It had come a long 73 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,480 Kelsey Snelling: way since the twenty nine campers of its opening year 74 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:11,480 Kelsey Snelling: in nineteen sixty nine. Looking back at the nineties, there 75 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,440 Kelsey Snelling: are certain things you might remember, like Friends, Seinfeld and 76 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:20,080 Kelsey Snelling: the Simpsons dominating television, or Sir Mix A Lot's "Baby 77 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:21,560 Kelsey Snelling: Got Back" on the radio. 78 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,200 Baby Got Back Archive: I liked big butts and I can not lie. You otha brothas can't deny. 79 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,680 Kelsey Snelling: Maybe you have memories of walking around your hometown mall 80 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,000 Kelsey Snelling: or sitting at home in the computer room exploring the 81 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:39,799 Kelsey Snelling: World Wide Web. These cultural touchstones might make you sigh 82 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:44,440 Kelsey Snelling: with happy nostalgia, But there was another cultural undercurrent roaring 83 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:49,599 Kelsey Snelling: through the nineties, fat phobia. Fat Phobia wasn't new, but 84 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,360 Kelsey Snelling: as pop culture shifted and advertising became all the more pervasive, 85 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,360 Kelsey Snelling: it was taking on fresh tactics to convince Americans that 86 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,239 Kelsey Snelling: being fat was something to fear, something to be mocked, 87 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,760 Kelsey Snelling: and if you were fat you'd better spend serious chunks 88 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,679 Kelsey Snelling: of your hard earned money trying to slim down, 89 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,280 Special K Archival: And. Protein can help you keep missiles while you lose fat. 90 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,919 Special K Archival: So make the special k breakfast part of your daily 91 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:18,280 Special K Archival: diet and exercise plan. 92 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,240 Slim Fast Archival: That's why I chose the Ultra Slim Fast Plan and 93 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,440 Slim Fast Archival: I lost fifty pounds in six months. 94 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:28,760 Workout Archival: Your body can be trim toned, firm, slim, fit, and 95 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,560 Workout Archival: in shape in just eight weeks. Now there's the Sports 96 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,800 Workout Archival: Illustrated Super Shape Up program fully sponsored by Diet PEPSI. 97 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,120 Kelsey Snelling: Trim toned, firm, slim, fit and in shape. I think 98 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,440 Kelsey Snelling: we get the point. When you weren't explicitly being sold 99 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:49,160 Kelsey Snelling: thinness like in those ads, it was still implicitly being 100 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,240 Kelsey Snelling: marketed towards you. Fashion magazines were filled with images of 101 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,120 Kelsey Snelling: emaciated models with pale skin and dark circles under their eyes, 102 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:02,520 Kelsey Snelling: a look dubbed heroin chic without an ounce of irony. 103 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,040 Kelsey Snelling: These models weren't selling diet pills or exercise plans, but 104 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:11,359 Kelsey Snelling: they were communicating the idea that thinness equals beauty, even 105 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,960 Kelsey Snelling: if it's a thinness that can only be obtained through 106 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:19,040 Kelsey Snelling: objectively unhealthy means like drug addiction or disordered eating, and 107 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,520 Kelsey Snelling: in TV and movies, fat people were constantly the butt 108 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,000 Kelsey Snelling: of the jokes, once again sending the message that being 109 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:31,040 Kelsey Snelling: fat is abnormal and shameful. Take the show Friends, for instance, 110 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,800 Kelsey Snelling: it was filled with jokes about Monica's weight. 111 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:35,800 Friends Archival: Oh oh, and I'm sorry that I said you were 112 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:40,239 Friends Archival: a cow in high school. That's okay, I was a cow. 113 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,920 Friends Archival: I know, I'm just sorry I said it. 114 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,480 Kelsey Snelling: All of these signals were affecting people's psyches. For example, 115 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,600 Kelsey Snelling: in nineteen ninety four, Esquire magazine printed an article revealing 116 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,839 Kelsey Snelling: that fifty four percent of women surveyed would rather be 117 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,039 Kelsey Snelling: hit by a truck than be fat. Think about that, 118 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:08,600 Kelsey Snelling: women would rather be seriously injured or die than be fat. 119 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,280 Kelsey Snelling: This fear of fatness could have stemmed from the fact 120 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,240 Kelsey Snelling: that between nineteen eighty and the late nineties, childhood obesity 121 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:22,080 Kelsey Snelling: rates in America nearly tripled, hovering around fifteen percent. In 122 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,240 Kelsey Snelling: nineteen ninety seven, the World Health Organization declared obesity as 123 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:31,600 Kelsey Snelling: a major public health problem and a global epidemic. Around 124 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,400 Kelsey Snelling: the same time, the American Heart Association added obesity to 125 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,480 Kelsey Snelling: its list of major risk factors for heart disease and 126 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:43,560 Kelsey Snelling: heart attacks. Then, in nineteen ninety eight, the National Institutes 127 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,640 Kelsey Snelling: of Health changed body mass index or BMI categories. For 128 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,840 Kelsey Snelling: those who don't know, BMI is a medical screening tool 129 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,559 Kelsey Snelling: that measures the ratio of your height to your weight. 130 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,480 Kelsey Snelling: The resulting number supposedly indicates how much body fat you 131 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:06,480 Kelsey Snelling: have. Your number places you into four categories underweight, healthy weight, overweight, or obese. 132 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,400 Kelsey Snelling: Under the new guidelines, a BMI of twenty six or 133 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:16,880 Kelsey Snelling: higher was considered overweight. With this change, millions of Americans 134 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,360 Kelsey Snelling: went to bed normal sized and then woke up overweight 135 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,440 Kelsey Snelling: without gaining a single pound. The National Institutes of Health 136 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,400 Kelsey Snelling: told reporters at the time that the changes were necessary 137 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,840 Kelsey Snelling: because of studies linking extra weight to health problems. Parents 138 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,280 Kelsey Snelling: and physicians alike now had a medical cause to prescribe 139 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,520 Kelsey Snelling: fat camp to even more children. But here's the thing. 140 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,920 Kelsey Snelling: BMI actually does a crap job of assessing how healthy 141 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,640 Kelsey Snelling: someone is, and it was never meant to assess the 142 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,840 Kelsey Snelling: health of an individual in the first place. 143 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,079 Dr. Erlanger: It was developed by a Belgian mathematician in the eighteen hundreds. 144 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:00,440 Kelsey Snelling: That's doctor Lisa Erlanger. She's a family physician, educator, activist, 145 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,840 Kelsey Snelling: and speaker who focuses on anti bias weight inclusive trauma 146 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:10,040 Kelsey Snelling: informed care for patients of all sizes and backgrounds. This mathematician, 147 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:14,960 Kelsey Snelling: named Adolphe Quetelet, was simply collecting data on averages. He never 148 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,200 Kelsey Snelling: intended for this to be used as a medical prescription. Plus, 149 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,880 Kelsey Snelling: he conducted his measurements only on men, and this was 150 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:27,080 Kelsey Snelling: nearly two hundred years ago. Clearly, his findings are far 151 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,600 Kelsey Snelling: from applicable in most modern societies. 152 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,560 Dr. Erlanger: Those ideas were adopted by eugenicists people trying to create 153 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:40,680 Dr. Erlanger: the ideal human. And also later this BMI, which was 154 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,360 Dr. Erlanger: never intended to measure the health of an individual, particularly 155 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,480 Dr. Erlanger: not in our modern community, started to be used as 156 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,160 Dr. Erlanger: a way to assess the health of an individual. 157 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,200 Kelsey Snelling: And here's another thing. BMI does not take into account 158 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,439 Kelsey Snelling: muscle mass, body composition, or really anything other than height 159 00:09:58,559 --> 00:09:59,160 Kelsey Snelling: versus weight. 160 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,480 Dr. Erlanger: BMS is also just an incredibly poor predictor of how 161 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,719 Dr. Erlanger: much body fat a person has. And we know this intuitively, right. 162 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,719 Dr. Erlanger: We know two hundred and fifty pound people who are 163 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,040 Dr. Erlanger: all muscle, and we know one hundred and fifty pound 164 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,280 Dr. Erlanger: people who are all fat. And so the idea that 165 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,000 Dr. Erlanger: just taking these two measurements would tell us how fat 166 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,560 Dr. Erlanger: a person is is intuitively ridiculous. 167 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,600 Kelsey Snelling: Researchers have found that BMI alone is not a good 168 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,600 Kelsey Snelling: indicator of mortality risk. In some studies, people in the 169 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:33,320 Kelsey Snelling: overweight category actually had the lowest mortality rate of anyone. 170 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,880 Kelsey Snelling: Obese people fare better than any other group when faced 171 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:42,079 Kelsey Snelling: with congestive heart failure, certain bypass surgeries, and hypertensive heart disease. 172 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,880 Kelsey Snelling: Ironic because doctors often use BMI to determine the types 173 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,520 Kelsey Snelling: of treatment a patient will receive, and a patient's BMI 174 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,840 Kelsey Snelling: can even affect their insurance premiums. 175 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,920 Dr. Erlanger: And so not only was this never intended to be 176 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,000 Dr. Erlanger: a measure of health, the way we use it is 177 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,480 Dr. Erlanger: clearly not a reflection of health. 178 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:09,280 Kelsey Snelling: Contrary to popular belief, it's extremely possible to be healthy 179 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,520 Kelsey Snelling: and fat at the same time. Yet in nineties America 180 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:18,960 Kelsey Snelling: and at Camp Shane, that possibility was completely unrecognized. In fact, 181 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:23,400 Kelsey Snelling: obesity was starting to be viewed as a disease. To 182 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,400 Kelsey Snelling: weight inclusive health experts like doctor Rachel Milner. These attempts 183 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,839 Kelsey Snelling: to turn body size into a disease not only to 184 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,960 Kelsey Snelling: humanize people and put blame where it doesn't belong, it 185 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,720 Kelsey Snelling: also sets people up for ineffective treatment. It's why she 186 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,000 Kelsey Snelling: actually avoids using the words obese or overweight. 187 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,640 Dr. Millner: This language and this attempt to identify body size as 188 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,559 Dr. Millner: a disease is really a way for the pharmaceutical companies 189 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,880 Dr. Millner: and for the diet industry to make money. If we 190 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,959 Dr. Millner: say bodies are a disease and then they come up 191 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,280 Dr. Millner: with these so called interventions. This is a multi multi 192 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:00,760 Dr. Millner: billion dollar industry. 193 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,600 Kelsey Snelling: A condition can be classified as a disease if it 194 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:09,640 Kelsey Snelling: impairs the normal functioning of the body, but millions of 195 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,360 Kelsey Snelling: fat people have no negative symptoms at all. In fact, 196 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,800 Kelsey Snelling: fat storage is actually the human body working properly. It's 197 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,840 Kelsey Snelling: a key component of our species survival. With this in mind, 198 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,280 Kelsey Snelling: Doctor Millner doesn't think weight should factor into medical treatment. 199 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,800 Dr. Millner: The only role that body size should play in medical 200 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:33,359 Dr. Millner: treatment is if the dosage of a medication or anesthesia 201 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,400 Dr. Millner: or a blood pressure cuff needs to be adjusted to 202 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,520 Dr. Millner: make sure that it's safe and effective for the size 203 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,720 Dr. Millner: of the person's body. Outside of that, it is unethical 204 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,840 Dr. Millner: to make body size a part of treatment. 205 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:55,240 Kelsey Snelling: So yes, Americans were getting fatter throughout the nineties. I mean, 206 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,040 Kelsey Snelling: how could we not when eleven servings of grain were 207 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,079 Kelsey Snelling: at the base of the food pyramid. But BMI was 208 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,520 Kelsey Snelling: also screwing with obesity data, we can now look back 209 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,079 Kelsey Snelling: and realize it wasn't really the health catastrophe the National 210 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,160 Kelsey Snelling: Institutes of Health or the World Health Organization would have 211 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:15,360 Kelsey Snelling: us believe. But at the time, rising childhood obesity rates 212 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,040 Kelsey Snelling: and rampant fat phobia and popular culture meant more parents 213 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,480 Kelsey Snelling: were concerned about their children's weight and more people were 214 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:28,520 Kelsey Snelling: interested in Camp Shane than ever. Behind the scenes, Camp 215 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,960 Kelsey Snelling: Shane was going through some major strife. Selma and her 216 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,319 Kelsey Snelling: son David were caught up in a battle for ownership 217 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,240 Kelsey Snelling: and things were about to get nasty. Not yet ready 218 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,400 Kelsey Snelling: to pass the reins to her son, Selma still owned 219 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,920 Kelsey Snelling: the camp, but David was camp director and partial owner. 220 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:47,880 Kelsey Snelling: He and his wife, Ziporah moved into the house in 221 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,840 Kelsey Snelling: the center of camp and lived there. During the summer season, 222 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,360 Kelsey Snelling: Salma moved into a house across the street from camp. 223 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,240 Kelsey Snelling: That meant David had more power and presence than ever before. 224 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:04,280 Kelsey Snelling: Under David's reign things were different because his motivation wasn't necessarily 225 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,840 Kelsey Snelling: to help kids lose weight like it was for Selma. 226 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:12,120 Sue: The biggest change between Selma and David's era is that 227 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,200 Sue: you could tell by lots of little things that it 228 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,239 Sue: had become a business, a for profit business. 229 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,240 Kelsey Snelling: That's Sue Steinberg, who you heard from last episode. By 230 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,320 Kelsey Snelling: the nineties, she was working at Camp Shane as a lifeguard, 231 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,840 Kelsey Snelling: swim instructor, and later on head of the pool. She 232 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,040 Kelsey Snelling: witnessed what she saw as a rocky transition from Selma 233 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:35,560 Kelsey Snelling: to David. 234 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:40,600 Sue: I did recognize the signs of the lack of love 235 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:46,080 Sue: for this community and with that said,um, giving David Ettenberg 236 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,840 Sue: the benefit of the doubt. To him, it was a business, 237 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,960 Sue: you know. Like he never purported to have started a 238 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:58,640 Sue: camp for fat people to create a bubble of societal 239 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:04,840 Sue: you know, marginalized people who could explore their identities. You know, like, 240 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,400 Sue: he never would have said that Camp Shane was supposed 241 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,400 Sue: to be that to him, he would. Have said, you know, 242 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,200 Sue: I am running a business, and he ran it as 243 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:17,640 Sue: such for sure. 244 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,080 Kelsey Snelling: Another person who noticed this was Jenna Hopkins. Jenna was 245 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,480 Kelsey Snelling: a group leader throughout the nineties. She saw David's leadership 246 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,960 Kelsey Snelling: style grow increasingly lax over time. 247 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,400 Jenna: It seemed to be better managed by the owners and 248 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,240 Jenna: staff in the beginning. It just seemed like maybe it 249 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,440 Jenna: was too big for them to properly manage, and maybe 250 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,440 Jenna: weren't even really, we're just taking the money and running, 251 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,080 Jenna: you know. Just it's all right, Well that happens who cares, 252 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,320 Jenna: you know. That was sort of the mentality that it 253 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,000 Jenna: seemed to be as the years went on. 254 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:55,800 Kelsey Snelling: What happened next was an avalanche. According to reporting from 255 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,920 Kelsey Snelling: Bloomberg BusinessWeek, Selma insisted that David and his wife Ziporah 256 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,880 Kelsey Snelling: live in their house on camp all year long, even 257 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,040 Kelsey Snelling: outside of the summer season. David and Ziporah said no. 258 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,440 Kelsey Snelling: According to David, Selma then sent the sheriff to evict 259 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,240 Kelsey Snelling: them from their on campus house. Selma later claimed that 260 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,120 Kelsey Snelling: David abruptly announced he was quitting during the crucial hiring 261 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:24,000 Kelsey Snelling: period in April before camp began. We're sure whether or 262 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,520 Kelsey Snelling: not he actually did. Because of this debacle, which may 263 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,960 Kelsey Snelling: or may not have even happened, Selma and her husband, Irving, 264 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,920 Kelsey Snelling: furiously filed a lawsuit to invalidate their previous agreement, the 265 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,520 Kelsey Snelling: one that said David would one day own the Camp. 266 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,480 Kelsey Snelling: David then used his minority shareholder status to dissolve the company. 267 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,440 Kelsey Snelling: An ugly legal battle ensued. In the end, both parties 268 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:50,800 Kelsey Snelling: agreed that David would. 269 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,200 Kelsey Snelling: Purchase the Camp for one point two million dollars. By 270 00:16:55,280 --> 00:17:01,000 Kelsey Snelling: nineteen ninety three, David was the sole owner of Camp Shane. 271 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,679 Kelsey Snelling: Though David and his mother were often at odds, he 272 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,359 Kelsey Snelling: did continue a few of her business practices, like hiring 273 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,760 Kelsey Snelling: counselors through exchange programs like Camp America, an organization that 274 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,040 Kelsey Snelling: sends camp counselors from other countries across the globe to 275 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,480 Kelsey Snelling: America for summer jobs. This saved David money because Camp 276 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,119 Kelsey Snelling: America counselors generally worked for lower wages than state side 277 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:34,200 Kelsey Snelling: counselors would, and David loved saving money. Camp America counselors 278 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,320 Kelsey Snelling: are some of the central characters behind the grandest of 279 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,200 Kelsey Snelling: Camp Shane lore, like the supplier of the M and 280 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,879 Kelsey Snelling: M cartel in episode one, Remember Heavyweights. Each year, a 281 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,639 Kelsey Snelling: counselor would drive to the Blockbuster in town to rent 282 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,640 Kelsey Snelling: the VHS tape and host a screening in the gymnasium. 283 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,600 Kelsey Snelling: And yes, I know some of you listening are probably 284 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:58,160 Kelsey Snelling: googling Blockbuster and VHS tape right about now. But one 285 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,400 Kelsey Snelling: year the screening didn't white go according to plan. 286 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:06,119 Nelson: There was the operations manager then was from Eastern Europe 287 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,720 Nelson: and he had a heavy accent, and he was told 288 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,720 Nelson: to go to Blockbuster and rent Heavyweights. Well, I don't 289 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,639 Nelson: know why we didn't have it at the camp. We 290 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,679 Nelson: watch it every year. God bless him. He goes to 291 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:37,480 Nelson: the video store and he asks for Heevy weights. He's like, I want the Heevy weights, the Heevy weights. And they're like, what? Heevy weights? He is like, yeah, Heevy, Heevy weights. And he is like, all right. So he gets what he thinks is Heavyweights the, you know, funny, Ben Stiller comedy Heavyweights. 292 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:53,000 Kelsey Snelling: That’s Nelson Jancaterino. You heard from him in episode 1. He was a camper at Camp Shane for several years before working as a counselor for several more summers. But back to the story: the counselor rented the tape and brought it back to camp 293 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,119 Nelson: And they put in what they think is Heavyweights, and 294 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:03,080 Nelson: they turn it off when it wasn't Heavyweights. It was Heevyweights, which 295 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:10,320 Nelson: was this graphic porno. It only lasted for like a 296 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,119 Nelson: few seconds to like Big Dog, who was like a 297 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,560 Nelson: notorious counselor, jumped in front of the projector. But all 298 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,800 Nelson: the kids whore like five seconds saw this like graphic 299 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:19,440 Nelson: sex act. 300 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,040 Kelsey Snelling: We're talking around one hundred kids, some as young as 301 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:29,200 Kelsey Snelling: eight years old being exposed to graphic pornography. Somehow, despite 302 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,520 Kelsey Snelling: this mishap, the Heavyweight screenings continued with the actual movie. 303 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:40,399 Kelsey Snelling: Of course. Another Camp America counselor was a British former 304 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,400 Kelsey Snelling: race car driver named Simon Greenwood. Merryl Winter, a camper 305 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,520 Kelsey Snelling: and then counselor throughout the eighties, nineties, and two thousands, 306 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,240 Kelsey Snelling: worked closely with Simon. 307 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,120 Merryl: All the girls fell in love with Simon. He had 308 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,679 Merryl: an English accent, he was adorable, and he's meticulous, so 309 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,080 Merryl: he was always good at what he did. 310 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,520 Kelsey Snelling: If this were really like the movie Heavyweights, then Simon 311 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,560 Kelsey Snelling: would be Pat the encouraging counselor that all the kids 312 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:11,040 Kelsey Snelling: and fellow staffers love, only like the Lady Magnet version. 313 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,520 Kelsey Snelling: David loved Simon too, and soon David made him his 314 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,800 Kelsey Snelling: right hand man, and they were quite the character foils 315 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,480 Kelsey Snelling: to one another. Where David was distant, 316 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,960 Merryl: He never took the time to get to know the kids, 317 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,080 Merryl: he didn't know any of them. 318 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:28,800 Kelsey Snelling: Simon was invested. 319 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,879 Merryl: He was a hard worker, he loved the kids, he 320 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,359 Merryl: loved the concept of camp, and he was really the 321 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,680 Merryl: backbone of that camp. It wouldn't have survived without him. 322 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,879 Kelsey Snelling: But Selma was still living across the street from camp, 323 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,000 Kelsey Snelling: and she didn't care how many passionate, hard working sidekicks 324 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,720 Kelsey Snelling: David had by his side. She challenged David at every turn. 325 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,000 Kelsey Snelling: She may have no longer been the camp's owner, but 326 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,760 Kelsey Snelling: she was still around, helping out in the office and 327 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,520 Kelsey Snelling: riding her golf cart on the campgrounds to yell at 328 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,760 Kelsey Snelling: kids for chewing gum. Even when she was off campus, 329 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,879 Kelsey Snelling: she never really left. She was known to watch whatever 330 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,200 Kelsey Snelling: she could from her house. If that sounds like I'm exaggerating, 331 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,679 Kelsey Snelling: I'm not. She sometimes sat on her porch with a 332 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,359 Kelsey Snelling: pair of binoculars to peer inside the camp. She even 333 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,119 Kelsey Snelling: contested the sale of the camp, claiming she felt pressure 334 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,159 Kelsey Snelling: to sell at a low price. Everyone could see the 335 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,000 Kelsey Snelling: continuing tension between Selma and David, including Merryl. 336 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,760 Merryl: I saw they were feuding. You couldn't not see they 337 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,000 Merryl: were feuding when they weren't talking. Yet they were sharing 338 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,560 Merryl: an office together, and they were mother and son, so 339 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,560 Merryl: it's really hard to fathom. But she installed a lock 340 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,840 Merryl: on the door so if David walked out of the office, 341 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,119 Merryl: she would just lock it from her seat, which was 342 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:51,920 Merryl: kind of funny. 343 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,919 Kelsey Snelling: And these were the adults in charge of hundreds of children. 344 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,800 Kelsey Snelling: Janna Hopkins, the group leader you heard from earlier, noticed 345 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,560 Kelsey Snelling: the rivalry between Selma and David as soon as she 346 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,280 Kelsey Snelling: stepped on camp for her first day of work. 347 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,879 Janna: Everybody knew that there was a battle going on. It 348 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,240 Janna: was just it was, you know, it permeated everything. 349 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,040 Kelsey Snelling: Janna was a single mom in Texas when she came 350 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,359 Kelsey Snelling: across an ad for Camp Shane in the back of 351 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,600 Kelsey Snelling: a teacher's magazine. She decided to apply and got a 352 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:20,720 Kelsey Snelling: job as a group leader. 353 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,000 Jenna: Kind of thought, well, I'm going to make money. I 354 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,800 Jenna: got an opportunity to be in the outdoors and maybe 355 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,360 Jenna: lose some weight. Plus my kid camps for free. This 356 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,080 Jenna: is pretty cool, and you escape the you know, one 357 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,120 Jenna: thousand degree summers in Dallas. 358 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,040 Kelsey Snelling: Jana drove herself and her seven year old all the 359 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,639 Kelsey Snelling: way from Dallas to the Catskills. That's a crazy journey 360 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,360 Kelsey Snelling: for a single mom to make, but she did it. 361 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,399 Kelsey Snelling: After days on the road, Janna arrived in Ferndale and 362 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,760 Kelsey Snelling: drove into the center of Camp Shane. 363 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,360 Janna: So I drive in and I park, and we get out, 364 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,719 Janna: and I walk up to the you know, the window 365 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,720 Janna: of the office and this woman slams the window open 366 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,359 Janna: and she looks at me and she says, what do 367 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:14,080 Janna: you want? So I'm immediately thinking, oh, no. You know, 368 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:15,480 Janna: maybe I'm in the wrong place. 369 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:16,000 Kelsey Snelling: I don't know. 370 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,359 Janna: And I said hi, I said, my name is Janna, 371 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,640 Janna: and I said I'm supposed to be a group leader 372 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,119 Janna: this summer. And she looks at me and she says, 373 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,240 Janna: I didn't hire you. Go home, And I'm just standing 374 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,960 Janna: there with my kid going uh oh, I have to say, 375 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,840 Janna: I mean, so many things are running through my head. 376 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,440 Janna: I'm literally still standing there. And then David Ettenberg comes 377 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,920 Janna: out of the office and he says, Janna, Janna, Janna its David. Don't worry about that. Just ignore her. That's my mother. And that was how I met Selma. 378 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,640 Kelsey Snelling: But Janna couldn't really ignore Selma. She kept making herself 379 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,160 Kelsey Snelling: known and flexing power that she didn't really have anymore. 380 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,119 Kelsey Snelling: One day, Janna took a group of her campers for 381 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,119 Kelsey Snelling: a walk into town. One of the girls fell and 382 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,480 Kelsey Snelling: hurt her leg. It hurt so much she couldn't walk 383 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,840 Kelsey Snelling: back to camp. So Janna ran back to camp to 384 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,480 Kelsey Snelling: get her car and drove the girl to the infirmary 385 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:08,480 Kelsey Snelling: on campus. 386 00:24:08,880 --> 00:25:34,000 Janna: You know, no cell phones, I couldn't stop and whip my phone out and say, “Hey, I need somebody to come help me”. So I made the choice to go ahead and I ran, well, I didn't really run, but I went back to camp. So I got my keys, I got my car, and I came back and I picked her up - just her! And I took her back, and I took her to the infirmary, and I left my co-counselor with the other girls and said, you know, y'all going back. And the next morning I woke up where, in my cabin thing where I slept, and I heard something, and I opened my eyes and Selma was sitting right next to my bed in a chair. And I just looked at her and I said, Selma. And she said, did you put a camper in your car yesterday? And I mean, you know, I just woke up. I was, I was disoriented and I was just shocked. And I was like, yes, yes, I did. And she said, you're not allowed to do that. And I said, here's what happened, you know? And she said, you should have just walked back and got somebody. And I said, I just felt like I had to get her back as soon as I could. And so she just gave me– she kept saying me, I could get fired. And, and I was breaking rules and, and, and all these things. And I’m thinking to myself, man, She had some balls. And she had to have planned that out. She had to, she had to find out where I was living. She had to know which room was mine. She even brought a chair. I mean, there wasn't a chair in our room. 387 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,800 Kelsey Snelling: Truly horrifying. Remember, at this point, Selma was no longer 388 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,879 Kelsey Snelling: in charge, but that didn't stop her from trying to 389 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:48,040 Kelsey Snelling: discipline staffers as if she were. Her presence still loomed large. 390 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,000 Janna: And I honestly I was afraid of her. There are 391 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,199 Janna: a lot of people who love her and have a 392 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,359 Janna: lot of respect for her, But I didn't see or 393 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,199 Janna: know that Selma. I just saw the one who was 394 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,399 Janna: overwrought with the desire to get her camp back and 395 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,280 Janna: would do anything she could to do that. 396 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,520 Kelsey Snelling: Jana didn't know just how far Selma was willing to go. 397 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,960 Kelsey Snelling: In nineteen ninety five, a smoke alarm went off in 398 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,160 Kelsey Snelling: Selma's house across the street from Camp, prompting a visit 399 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:28,760 Kelsey Snelling: from the fire department. The police investigated. Leslie, Selma's daughter 400 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,800 Kelsey Snelling: and David's sister believed Selma started the fire herself, using 401 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,879 Kelsey Snelling: old newspapers and film negatives to frame David. Selma claimed 402 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,360 Kelsey Snelling: she wasn't home that evening. Later that summer, a quote 403 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,480 Kelsey Snelling: "concerned parent" sent an anonymous letter to the New York 404 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,439 Kelsey Snelling: State Department of Health calling attention to overcrowding and poor 405 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,840 Kelsey Snelling: food quality at Shane. The thing is the letter included 406 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,400 Kelsey Snelling: lots of insider details like enrollment figures, bunk square footage, 407 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,919 Kelsey Snelling: and health inspection dates. To David, the letter wasn't anonymous 408 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:10,119 Kelsey Snelling: at all. With all of this drama and chaos going on, 409 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,560 Kelsey Snelling: no one seemed to be prioritizing the kids. Sometime that August, 410 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,040 Kelsey Snelling: a fourteen year old broke his collarbone while allegedly playing 411 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:24,480 Kelsey Snelling: unsupervised at the off campus Lake. Nineteen ninety five was 412 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,340 Kelsey Snelling: Janna's last summer. At this point, she'd been at Camp 413 00:27:28,340 --> 00:27:32,040 Kelsey Snelling: Shane for years. She had the sense that something bad 414 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,679 Kelsey Snelling: was going to happen, and she didn't want to be 415 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:35,640 Kelsey Snelling: there when it did. 416 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:50,119 Jenna: The biggest problem I had with David, I think was later, as things were getting crazy. And I just kept saying, I said,I don't want this to happen. And he would say, I know, I know, don't worry. I'm handling it, I'm handling it. But clearly he wasn't handling. 417 00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:00,000 Kelsey Snelling: Another thing David wasn't handling well, the food. David didn't 418 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,480 Kelsey Snelling: prioritize nutrition so much as he prioritized cutting calories, so 419 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,200 Kelsey Snelling: kids were served the same junk food they were likely 420 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,560 Kelsey Snelling: eating at home, just much smaller portions, say two French 421 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,439 Kelsey Snelling: toasticks for breakfast instead of four, and then for dinner 422 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,639 Kelsey Snelling: one slice of pizza instead of two or three, served 423 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,200 Kelsey Snelling: with a glass of milk. Not enough food to sustain 424 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:27,600 Kelsey Snelling: kids doing eight hours of exercise a day. Now, there 425 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,919 Kelsey Snelling: was one workaround, at least for the skinny campers at Shane. 426 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,040 Kelsey Snelling: If kids were deemed an acceptable level of thin, they 427 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:42,800 Kelsey Snelling: were sometimes awarded a visit to... The Pig Out Room, a 428 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,800 Kelsey Snelling: supply closet off the dining hall filled with all the 429 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,000 Kelsey Snelling: contraband snacks that Shaners weren't allowed to eat, peanut butter 430 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:55,080 Kelsey Snelling: and jelly sandwiches, candy chips, cakes baked by the camp chefs. 431 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,800 Sue: And then of the people that were like normal weighted people, 432 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,600 Sue: they had the pig out where. You know, I never 433 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,240 Sue: got there, so I'm not really sure, but I think 434 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,000 Sue: there was peanut butter there. You know. 435 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,640 Kelsey Snelling: The Pig Out Room disappeared in the late nineties, but 436 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,480 Kelsey Snelling: while it existed, it was protected like a national treasure. 437 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,360 Kelsey Snelling: Sometimes staff would check bags and backpacks to make sure 438 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,360 Kelsey Snelling: no one was hiding any contraband food that they might 439 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,520 Kelsey Snelling: have smuggled from the room. Campers were almost never allowed 440 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,120 Kelsey Snelling: in there, try as they might, and most counselors weren't either. 441 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,320 Kelsey Snelling: Only the fittest were permitted, those who had reached Camp 442 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,720 Kelsey Snelling: Shane's definition of a goal weight. Usually that meant the 443 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,360 Kelsey Snelling: Camp America counselors who were already thin and weren't at 444 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:46,720 Kelsey Snelling: Camp Shane to lose anything. So camper's food intake was 445 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:51,080 Kelsey Snelling: heavily restricted, and then their reward for restriction was to 446 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,000 Kelsey Snelling: eat a bunch of cake and cookies in The Pig 447 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,600 Kelsey Snelling: Out room. It's a confusing message that further fetishized quote 448 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,160 Kelsey Snelling: "bad foods" and not one that in stilled healthy habits. 449 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,000 Kelsey Snelling: Sue remembers a Camp America counselor who was a semi 450 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,280 Kelsey Snelling: professional soccer player. He was one of those straight sized 451 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,440 Kelsey Snelling: counselors who would have been allowed to go to The 452 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,320 Kelsey Snelling: Pig Out Room. He didn't understand this relationship that camp 453 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,880 Kelsey Snelling: was establishing between campers and food. 454 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:22,320 Sue: For him, food was fuel. He never could compute. And 455 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,840 Sue: I just remember the whole summer of him being like, 456 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,360 Sue: I do not get it. These kids are out there 457 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,840 Sue: running all day and we are feeding them, you know, 458 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,200 Sue: a teaspoon of apple butter and some dried toast and 459 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:37,720 Sue: some cottage cheese. 460 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,480 Kelsey Snelling: Like her fellow counselors, Sue also had questions about the 461 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,440 Kelsey Snelling: camp's approach to food and how it was all adding up. 462 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,280 Kelsey Snelling: One day, she got a glimpse of the numbers and 463 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,920 Kelsey Snelling: learned just how little these kids were surviving off of 464 00:30:51,440 --> 00:31:47,800 Sue: I was working there with the nutritionist and she was concerned, you know, rightfully so. And she was, somewhat distraught. She was just like, the numbers aren't computing, I remember specifically she was like, oh, on Thursday we got 1400 calories. And that was sort of in the range that we were supposed to be getting per day. And she sort of, you know, showed me the numbers of like four straight days of like 900 or a thousand calories a day. And somehow I got roped into this. And then there was, it, it was a short conversation, um, with David. But I was like she's really concerned that, you know, some days are very low in calories. And he was like, you know, it all averages out in the end. And I was like, I don't think calories really work that way. Like, you need enough calories every day. 465 00:31:48,480 --> 00:32:30,040 Kelsey Snelling: Sue’s right. It doesn’t work that way. And since David had been in this space for over 20 years, the fact that he didn’t understand how calories work isn’t just shocking. It’s irresponsible. Plus, these days we know calorie restriction simply doesn’t work. Researchers have found that more than 95% of all diets fail long term, most within a couple of years. And often, the weight regained puts people at a higher weight than where they started in the first place. And still, year after year, the message campers got was to restrict their food intake. Stacy Toth attended Camp Shane for two summers in the nineties. 466 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:51,600 Stacy: The understanding was very much… you need to lose weight and by all means necessary while you're at camp. Both the camp is gonna help you and we're gonna turn a blind eye to behaviors that we know are aiding people in weight loss that are actually not healthy and good for them. 467 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,120 Kelsey Snelling: Stacy told me about the shame and embarrassment she felt 468 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,320 Kelsey Snelling: growing up in a bigger body. She hated walking to 469 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,680 Kelsey Snelling: the plus size section to pick out her new swimsuit, 470 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,120 Kelsey Snelling: and she was always comparing herself to her stepsisters, who 471 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,800 Kelsey Snelling: were just naturally smaller than her, while she listened to 472 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,000 Kelsey Snelling: her grandma brag about only drinking water and eating Ritz 473 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,720 Kelsey Snelling: Crackers all day. Stacy used food as a coping mechanism 474 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:19,080 Kelsey Snelling: after a traumatic experience in her childhood. She felt like 475 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,480 Kelsey Snelling: a black sheep in her family. 476 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,120 Stacy: But looking back at photos, I looked like an Olympic swimmer, 477 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,760 Stacy: Like I looked like a healthy person with a lot 478 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,240 Stacy: of muscle mass. And it wasn't until I was at 479 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:38,640 Stacy: Camp Shane that I learned how to purge, you know, 480 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,280 Stacy: to binge and purge, how to avoid food right like 481 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,320 Stacy: if we were going to be weighed in the next day, 482 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,000 Stacy: everybody would just not eat. 483 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,959 Kelsey Snelling: This mentality to lose weight by all means necessary was dangerous. 484 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:58,600 Kelsey Snelling: At Camp Shane, Stacy experienced disordered eating, long hours exercising. 485 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,480 Kelsey Snelling: And little food. After a few weeks of this, she 486 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,760 Kelsey Snelling: got sick and because she was at fat camp. The 487 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,040 Kelsey Snelling: counselors didn't believe her. They thought she was just making 488 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,240 Kelsey Snelling: excuses to get out of exercising. 489 00:34:11,719 --> 00:35:04,880 Stacy: You had multiple activities that you were doing physically all day long. And particularly when I would go to things that were high intensity cardio, like aerobics and circuit training, I basically couldn't breathe. And it wasn't because I was out of shape, it was because I had bronchitis and I probably had just caught a cold or something and then gotten sick. But I remember coming back up from the hill from, the dining hall and feeling like I couldn't make it up the hillI remember asking multiple times like, I, I don't think I can do this. Can I sit this out? And being told no, being very much given the impression that I was lazy I just kept feeling worse and worse until one day when I was trying to make it up the hill. I basically collapsed and they needed to put me on a golf cart and take me up to the nurse's station. 490 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:12,440 Kelsey Snelling: Stacy had bronchitis, which turned into walking pneumonia. She was 491 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,080 Kelsey Snelling: given broth and tea, but that was it. She kept 492 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,359 Kelsey Snelling: coughing and soon cracked a rib. 493 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,919 Stacy: My body was overwhelmed with the amount of exercise and 494 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:29,160 Stacy: extreme pressure that it was being put under physically and 495 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:34,280 Stacy: not supported with nutrition, and that led to my body 496 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:42,040 Stacy: literally crashing, crumpling to beg for help. I mean, that's 497 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,719 Stacy: what sickness is, right is our body physically telling us 498 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,560 Stacy: to slow down, to rest, to recover. 499 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,960 Kelsey Snelling: Stacy went home early that summer feeling like a failure. 500 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,200 Kelsey Snelling: She didn't accomplish what she went to Camp Shane to 501 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,680 Kelsey Snelling: do to lose weight to become skinny. She tried to 502 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,160 Kelsey Snelling: replicate the weight loss tactics she learned from camp at home. 503 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,000 Stacy: I would starve myself. I would try to restrict my 504 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,040 Stacy: calories the way that had been restricted at camp, and 505 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,759 Stacy: then I would starve. I was just so hungry that 506 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,840 Stacy: then I would binge, and then I would feel badly 507 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,319 Stacy: about having binged, and then I would purge, and that 508 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:29,560 Stacy: cycle would go over and over and over again. I 509 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:34,640 Stacy: don't know that I fully understood body shame until I 510 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,960 Stacy: went to a fat camp, and it's why it was 511 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,319 Stacy: called Camp Shame. We didn't call it "Camp Shane". We 512 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:48,879 Stacy: called it Camp Shame. And the messaging was very much 513 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,960 Stacy: especially for children who had been going for years. It 514 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,040 Stacy: was a focus on you get love, you get attention, 515 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,760 Stacy: you get these sort of things when you perform at camp, 516 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,200 Stacy: and performance in that instance was losing weight. 517 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:14,240 Kelsey Snelling: Stacy's experience of starting with calorie restriction and developing disordered 518 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,680 Kelsey Snelling: eating from there is a pretty common long term effect 519 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:23,120 Kelsey Snelling: according to psychologists and certified eating disorder specialist doctor Rachel Millner. 520 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,080 Dr. Millner: So anything that is an attempt to either lose weight 521 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,719 Dr. Millner: or prevent weight gain for kids and adolescents who need 522 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,799 Dr. Millner: to be growing and developing, is going to increase their 523 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,319 Dr. Millner: risk of eating disorders. And if they're not somebody that 524 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,399 Dr. Millner: developed an eating disorder, it's still going to put them 525 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,279 Dr. Millner: in a place where they're constantly weight cycling, so they're 526 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,360 Dr. Millner: trying to lose weight and then regain weight, which we 527 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,239 Dr. Millner: know as a negative impact on health, and where they 528 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,759 Dr. Millner: don't get to feel fully embodied, that they feel like 529 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:01,400 Dr. Millner: their body is constantly betraying them. 530 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,400 Kelsey Snelling: Of course, this mindset and messaging wasn't only playing out 531 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,839 Kelsey Snelling: at Camp Shane. It was happening at home, at school 532 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:13,040 Kelsey Snelling: and in the TV and movies kids watched, which brings 533 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,080 Kelsey Snelling: us back to Heavyweights. One interesting thing about the movie is, 534 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,919 Kelsey Snelling: even though it was released in nineteen ninety five, it's 535 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,279 Kelsey Snelling: somehow not filled with outdated fat phobic jokes like you 536 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,400 Kelsey Snelling: might expect. The movie is a comedy, but the jokes 537 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,240 Kelsey Snelling: are rarely at the expense of the fat characters. Director 538 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,360 Kelsey Snelling: Steve Brill said that was intentional. 539 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:38,760 Steve: I certainly wanted to ennoble and make these characters fun 540 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,680 Steve: and people you could look up to and not make 541 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,120 Steve: fun of, which is obviously what the fat guy or 542 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,560 Steve: the fat kid has always been in movies. By being overweight, 543 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:53,640 Steve: you know, the shame and self criticism and the doubt 544 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,279 Steve: that it brings into you is is really harmful. And 545 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,640 Steve: that's something that you know, we wanted to address as 546 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,320 Steve: a problem, and that's something that you know, hopefully the 547 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,040 Steve: kids when they watch the movie, they go, oh, it's 548 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,080 Steve: all right, it's all right to be overweight. 549 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,920 Kelsey Snelling: If you've never seen the movie, then spoiler alert, I'm 550 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,279 Kelsey Snelling: about to talk about the ending. The campers have successfully 551 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,600 Kelsey Snelling: ousted their militaristic camp director and they've just won the 552 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,840 Kelsey Snelling: annual competition against their rival. Camp Music swells as the 553 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,520 Kelsey Snelling: campers all cheer and hug each other. The main character 554 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,440 Kelsey Snelling: Jerry turns to Pat the camp counselor, and says. 555 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,360 Heavyweights Archival: Thanks for the best damn summer of my life. 556 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,440 Kelsey Snelling: Unfortunately that's just a movie. At the end of a 557 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,719 Kelsey Snelling: Camp Shane summer, there's no trophy, no music that swells 558 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,880 Kelsey Snelling: as the credits start to roll. No hearts filled with 559 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,000 Kelsey Snelling: new lessons about loving yourself in spite of the bullies 560 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,000 Kelsey Snelling: and naysayers. It is all right to be fat, like 561 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,800 Kelsey Snelling: Steve said, but our culture is often telling us otherwise. 562 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,279 Kelsey Snelling: So even though almost all Shaners had fun at one 563 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,040 Kelsey Snelling: point or another, I don't think any of them walked 564 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,920 Kelsey Snelling: away from camp thinking it's all right to be heavy. 565 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,520 Kelsey Snelling: Another difference between Camp Shane and the fictional Camp Hope. 566 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:25,640 Kelsey Snelling: The camp owner at Shane hadn't been ousted. In fact, 567 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,000 Kelsey Snelling: in spite of his mother's sabotage, David was about to 568 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:36,520 Kelsey Snelling: lead Camp Shane into its biggest decade yet. Next week. 569 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:37,759 Kelsey Snelling: On Camp Shane. 570 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:53,680 Merryl: He was happy with bodies in camp, whether they be, um, kids or counselors...Didn't matter if they were doing things that were unethical or, or, um, dangerous 571 00:40:54,400 --> 00:42:00,319 Kelsey Snelling: We reached out to David Ettenberg and Ziporah Janowski for comment; at the time of this recording we have not received a reply Camp Shame is a production of iHeartPodcasts. I’m your host, Kelsey Snelling. Camp Shame is produced by Brittany Martinez,Taylor Williamson, Sara Schleede, Luci Jones and Alyia Yates Grau. Our Editor is Courtenay Hameister. with additional Editorial support from Lindsey Kratochwill and Grace Lynch. Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan, Emily Rudder and me, Kelsey Snelling. For iHeartMedia, our executive producer is Cristina Everett. Fact checking done by Madeline Goore, Luci Jones, Paloma Moreno Jimenez, Lauren Williams and Fiona Pestana. Our theme music is produced by Sean Petell. Special thanks to Loren Moffett, Naomi Harvey, Jenell Manzi, Ben Wong, Travis Prow, and Stephanie Malson. Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @CampShame – that's with an M!- If you or anyone you know went to Camp Shane reach out with your camp stories