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Speaker 1: On Saturday, October twenty two and two thousand five, Tera

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Speaker 1: Grinstead went missing from her residence. As the hours turned

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Speaker 1: into days, days in two weeks, weeks in two months,

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Speaker 1: and eventually months into years, the search efforts never ceased.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So we always

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Speaker 1: believed that it would be solved. We just did not

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Speaker 1: know when. A few days ago an individual came forward

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Speaker 1: and reported that they had information into Terror's disappearance. Through

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Speaker 1: these interviews, enough probable cause was discovered so we could

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Speaker 1: swear out and arrest warrant charging Ryan Alexander Duke with

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Speaker 1: the murder of Tera Grinstead. Duke was taken into custody

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Speaker 1: yesterday afternoon and the warrant was issued this morning. This

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Speaker 1: is part two of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Live

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Speaker 1: from Crime Cotton on the stage with Nancy ken Crafts

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Speaker 1: and Tom Fastbender from Making a Murderer and Up and

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Speaker 1: van As creator Paine Lindsay with me. Pay Lindsay Payne

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Speaker 1: is the creator of Up and Vanished, and he first

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Speaker 1: focused on the disappearance of a beautiful young lady and

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Speaker 1: I really identified with her mother a lot, Tara Grinstead,

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Speaker 1: which I believe largely because Paine stayed on it in

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Speaker 1: his podcast. Has just been cracked after many, many years

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Speaker 1: of being a cold case. So Paine, what's up, man,

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Speaker 1: what's up? So thanks for talking to me before it

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Speaker 1: cracked too. We spoke beforehand. We did a little podcast

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Speaker 1: interview exchange. But it really kind of struck a chord

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Speaker 1: with me when you were talking about when you went

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Speaker 1: inside terrace house. When you know, I did all my

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Speaker 1: research and one of the first place you go is

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Speaker 1: looking at old news clips and all the news archives,

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Speaker 1: and you were in a lot of them. You did

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Speaker 1: tons of interviews with persons of interest, different suspects and

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Speaker 1: family members, and went to Oscilla and or from Georgia.

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Speaker 1: So I knew that this case had to struck a

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Speaker 1: chord with you and really kind of connected with me

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Speaker 1: when you shared that story about being inside her house

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Speaker 1: and it being real neat. It looked like a little

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Speaker 1: doll dollhouse. It was everything. It looked like what's that magazine?

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Speaker 1: That interior magazine. No, it's like they sell things like furniture.

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Speaker 1: It starts with a D. It'll come to me a minute.

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Speaker 1: It looked so perfect, like it was out of one

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Speaker 1: of those magazines where they sell house goods. And then

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Speaker 1: there was a lamps when the police came, there was

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Speaker 1: a lampshade askew. There were pearls all across the floor

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Speaker 1: and the edge of her bead. One of the columns

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Speaker 1: bedstead had been it's cracked. A couple of subtle clues

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Speaker 1: that there may have been a struggle inside the home.

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Speaker 1: Nothing definitive. When you actually a question, having been on

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Speaker 1: this case for a long time and covering it a

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Speaker 1: long time ago, were you surprised about the arrest of

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Speaker 1: two former students? For I was, And I'll tell you why. Okay,

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Speaker 1: there's my husband and he doesn't have the children. Why

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Speaker 1: didn't you give him some ore melotonem and you star

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Speaker 1: six seven and a star six seven? Okay, fine, that'll

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Speaker 1: be fine. What's the temperature outside right now? They're fine.

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Speaker 1: They're in the car left air condition on. Um. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about Tara Grinstead. David went with me and the

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Speaker 1: night that we went through the home, we stopped at

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Speaker 1: the only restaurant we could find by the interstate. Was

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Speaker 1: it a waffle house? Had house waffle house and had

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Speaker 1: a steak? Not that he had the steak, had the

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Speaker 1: waffle um. Yes. But the reason I was surprised is

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Speaker 1: because typically murders are committed by somebody you know, that's

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Speaker 1: in your close circle. That's your husband, that's your ex,

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Speaker 1: that's your boyfriend, and then it moves out. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: did not see that. I should have, but I didn't.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think means? I mean, why then,

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Speaker 1: if these guys did do this, how were they ever

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Speaker 1: in the same place. I don't believe that Ryan Duke

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Speaker 1: just went over to terrace House one night on a win.

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Speaker 1: But are you suggesting they had a sex relationship? Always

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Speaker 1: the same thing with man, isn't it it? Really? It's

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Speaker 1: actually not. I don't even believe that. Really, what is it?

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Speaker 1: I just want to know how I turned that around

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Speaker 1: on you? You did? It was really mean? Your mean?

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Speaker 1: Thank you? You know, man, don't like a nice woman.

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Speaker 1: You know you cook for them, you know, you do

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Speaker 1: everything for m You give a little cards. No, they

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Speaker 1: want somebody man. Okay, Now wait, why do I think

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Speaker 1: I think that there are times in life when people collide,

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm talking about. I think that they probably

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Speaker 1: they may have gone into burglarize. They there was a

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Speaker 1: big shin dig that night barbecue at her boss's house.

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Speaker 1: She was a teacher or somebody connected with the board

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Speaker 1: of education, and I mean so very everybody knows everything

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Speaker 1: in that town and um Or they went by and

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Speaker 1: saw her car was gone, but they had been in

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Speaker 1: her car because she was one of those neat freaks.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you could tell that from inside of her house.

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Speaker 1: Her seat was pushed back. You know, you get in

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Speaker 1: your car and your husband's been then there and it's

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Speaker 1: like uh, and you fix it. And there was mud

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Speaker 1: all over where the tires had been somewhere muddy. She

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Speaker 1: would never have done that. That's just not her. You know,

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Speaker 1: those people like you get in the car it's perfect

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Speaker 1: and it smells clean and everything they have the little

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Speaker 1: protectors and all that was her. Her car was covered

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Speaker 1: in the tires were covered in red mud, and the

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Speaker 1: seat was pushed back, so they had been in her car.

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Speaker 1: So I'm wondering if they did not get her on

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Speaker 1: the way home or getting out of her car, or

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Speaker 1: were burglarizing and she came in upon them, so they

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Speaker 1: killed her. Either way, it's strange to me. Yeah, it's strange,

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Speaker 1: and it would make more sense if it wasn't random,

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Speaker 1: like in some people's minds if they had had a

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Speaker 1: relationship and she kept in a big secret, like why

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Speaker 1: would she want a kid from high school? I don't

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Speaker 1: think she would. I think that she was actually a

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Speaker 1: beauty queen and smart has applied to a PhD program.

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Speaker 1: I mean everything that's find It's strange that what the

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Speaker 1: gb I is alleging is that Ryan Duke, who's been

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Speaker 1: charged with murder I was white. They ran to inject himself.

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Speaker 1: And um, they say that Ryan Duke went to tear

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Speaker 1: his house mill of night on Saturday night and broke

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Speaker 1: into her house with the intent to steal something and

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Speaker 1: killed her with one hand. And I just find that

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Speaker 1: hard to believe if you were one. There's nothing valuable

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Speaker 1: in tear his house. She's a school teacher. They don't

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Speaker 1: get paid very much money. Unfortunately. You really think, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what what what what did you do before you started podcasting? Nothing? Okay? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you really think that crains like Ryan Jukes sit around

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Speaker 1: and go, wow, if I did break in, I might

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Speaker 1: not find anything. No, they just do it. They do it.

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Speaker 1: It seems like a bad house to rob, It does,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it? They thought about that. I don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that anybody would think about that. Maybe Ryan

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Speaker 1: Duke didn't that night. Okay, let me tell you something.

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Speaker 1: When I first started prosecuting, I had not been out

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Speaker 1: on the street very much. I got a case. I

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Speaker 1: opened the file and I'm like, I said, this cop

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Speaker 1: is lying. Now are you in here still? I told

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Speaker 1: you this story? So I opened because the cop wrote

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Speaker 1: on the repolice report I was driving through McLendon down,

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Speaker 1: you know whatever, and the defendant came up for me

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Speaker 1: on the corner and held up a glass singed bag

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Speaker 1: of crack in his right hand. I'm like, you expect

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Speaker 1: me to believe a dope was gonna hold up a

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Speaker 1: pack of crack on the street. That didn't happen. You're lying.

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Speaker 1: I'm throwing the case out. I said this to a cop.

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Speaker 1: I was straight out of lost. I didn't know anything. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So you know, fast forward a few months, I'm out

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Speaker 1: investigating a childless station case. I pull into the same project.

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Speaker 1: A guy goes, I'm like, how much you buy it for? So? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got a good deal and it was a five rock. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So you're saying, wow, you think you would really have

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Speaker 1: broken into tearrat Grinstead's house when there wasn't that much

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Speaker 1: to Yeah, I do, Yeah, why not? There's other parts

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Speaker 1: of the story that make it make less sense, Like

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Speaker 1: he drove twenty minutes in the middle of the night

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Speaker 1: to go to Terrace House solely her house. Why her house?

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Speaker 1: There's gonna be a reason. Maybe you wanted to raper maybe,

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you doubt that, do you doubt that

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Speaker 1: it's him? No? Then I just think that the narrative. Then,

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Speaker 1: can I ask you what difference does it make why

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Speaker 1: he went and killed her? Well, if it involved other people,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't it be important that they are held accountable as well? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I think that Ryan do very well. Maybe you know,

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Speaker 1: responsible for killing Sarah, but you think somebody else helped

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Speaker 1: get rid of them. I think there's more people involved

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Speaker 1: in the story. I think that the narrative is presented

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Speaker 1: this way and there's a gag order and play is

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Speaker 1: because it's convenient for law enforcement. Conspiracy, I'm really I'm not. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I'm really not. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm really not. People,

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Speaker 1: I really am not. If you want, thank you's Keith right,

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Speaker 1: he saves normal, He's got a successful podcast. If I

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Speaker 1: can just add to this discussion. You know, that's why

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Speaker 1: prosecutors are not required in homicide trials to prove motive

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Speaker 1: because sometimes we don't know the answer is I don't

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Speaker 1: know why just something like that. Why do you know

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Speaker 1: you're trying to take relatively crazy decisions as people make

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Speaker 1: and trying to fit it into something that is is

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Speaker 1: like everybody when you're investigating and you consider that, right,

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Speaker 1: isn't motive pretty important an investigation? Tom but absolutely? But

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Speaker 1: the prosecutors ever simplify a case and just try to

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Speaker 1: ignore that somebody else may be involved just to get

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Speaker 1: their conviction. Why do you think they're ignoring it just

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Speaker 1: because they had told you about it? Make their job easy?

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Speaker 1: Well that's that s maiking my teeth. I mean, hold on,

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Speaker 1: we've got a defense lawyer in the house, Renee. How

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Speaker 1: many times have I prosecuted or you defended people and

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Speaker 1: you're like, why are you so damn stupid? Why would

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Speaker 1: you do this? A lot of times people? Whether du

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Speaker 1: you know that one of the one of the one

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Speaker 1: of the social science that discussions or reasons is because

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Speaker 1: that class of people in Nancy, you know this is

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Speaker 1: have a good degree of impulsivity about them. They don't

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Speaker 1: think things through. That's why they're criminals. If it wasn't

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Speaker 1: for stupid criminals through because I mean they burned tear

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Speaker 1: his body for several days and that's not alleged. That's

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Speaker 1: something that one of the people admitted. It makes you wonder,

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Speaker 1: how can you be stupid and smart? What Ryan has

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Speaker 1: alleged to be done was stupid in my opinion, But

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Speaker 1: it wasn't that stupid If the g B I couldn't

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Speaker 1: solve it for eleven years, so there was I think

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Speaker 1: it's because he was so outside her sphere. I mean, yes,

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Speaker 1: he was at school, the same school when she was

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Speaker 1: teaching there. I'm not even sure did she teach him

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Speaker 1: and she taught him it was three years, you know,

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Speaker 1: why would you even think of him so? But do

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Speaker 1: you have any doubt based on what you know now

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Speaker 1: that he is the killer? No, I just think there's

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Speaker 1: a different story and think I think there may be

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Speaker 1: a different I agree with you that should be held

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Speaker 1: responsible And the good thing is we're going to learn

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Speaker 1: the different story and upcoming up and vanished episodes produced

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Speaker 1: by Duke Look, hey, hey, I may beat him up

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Speaker 1: on the time but I still want him. You're not

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Speaker 1: getting him. He's mine, He's mine to mis tree. Okay,

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Speaker 1: for guy, let's take one more question. Okay what Okay,

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Speaker 1: we gotta take three. Okay you first. I love it because,

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Speaker 1: like right now, I'm thinking about those two little girls

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Speaker 1: that were murdered in Delphi. Look, it's a small police force.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's ragging on them. They're trying. You think they don't

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Speaker 1: want to solve it. They need help, like you, Missy Beavers.

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Speaker 1: They need help. Don't drag him down, lift him up,

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Speaker 1: help the police. Yes, I mean I really think Pain

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Speaker 1: is partially responsible for staying on that case and then

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Speaker 1: getting cracked. I really do. He never let up. I do.

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Speaker 1: Thank you and these guys. I mean imagine Heaven netflix

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Speaker 1: against you. I mean, whoa, that's a that's a real

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Speaker 1: David and Goliath, like I always say, and you know this,

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Speaker 1: to be treated my husband, I'd be one o'clock at

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Speaker 1: night making posters for the next day. I would buy

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Speaker 1: my own supplies and all the DEA didn't have any money. Um,

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Speaker 1: you're up against a lot, you really are? What what

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Speaker 1: where am I going with this? Yes? I like citizens

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Speaker 1: that try, Yes, but one of the questions and so

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Speaker 1: what in the they put it in the back of

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Speaker 1: the vehicle, according to Brendan, because they had to decide

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Speaker 1: what to do with her body. Okay, so at that

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Speaker 1: point they threw her in the back. And they did

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Speaker 1: throw her because there's the cast off blood. Remember the

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Speaker 1: blood pattern analysis that we talked about yesterday. We know

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Speaker 1: and didn't make any sense until Brennan told us, why

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Speaker 1: she in the back of our own vehicle? And it

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Speaker 1: doesn't make sense, But now it makes sense. They're going

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Speaker 1: to decide what to do with with the body, and

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Speaker 1: and they decided to burn and said Tommy and agree

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Speaker 1: with that. But number two, you're just not gonna let

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Speaker 1: a body lay around the garage for when there are

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Speaker 1: brothers and relatives and people that may stop by. So

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Speaker 1: they're putting it somewhere, putting her somewhere. And there's this

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Speaker 1: instinct that I've always seen. I cannot explain it to

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Speaker 1: hide the body and if it's somebody you know, you'll

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Speaker 1: see them cover the face. It's very odd. Was that

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Speaker 1: the rest of your question? Can I just want there

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Speaker 1: are I want the truth. I don't care if the

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Speaker 1: courthouse falls down, if the walls crash in. I don't

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Speaker 1: care if someone wrongfully convicted, is it's made clear and

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Speaker 1: they get out of jail. I want the truth. I

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Speaker 1: want the right person behind bars, come hell or high water.

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Speaker 1: If I can add one, one of the most hurtful

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Speaker 1: things said about me, and and there's there's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of things, is that I only cared about a

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Speaker 1: conviction instead of justice. I'm sitting here in front of

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Speaker 1: while of you right now, and any prosecutor would say this,

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Speaker 1: I don't care if they did it. I don't care

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Speaker 1: if they didn't do it. I wanted the right result.

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Speaker 1: And so when they suggest that everything we did was

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Speaker 1: just for a prosecution or a convict, when Tom just

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Speaker 1: did the questioning of him just looking for a confession,

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Speaker 1: that's not true at all. People that do our work

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Speaker 1: don't do it to get rich. People that do our

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Speaker 1: work do it to seek justice for that and that's

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Speaker 1: why why we do those things. And I will stick

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Speaker 1: by that until my dying breath. Yep, where they were

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Speaker 1: crafting round? Hey, what do you calling hell? Billy little girl?

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Speaker 1: So where's the rest of the evidence. Okay, were you

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Speaker 1: in our presentation? I don't know the answer. We did

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Speaker 1: well uh, if the if a chilling occurred in the bedroom,

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Speaker 1: he did burn all the sheets, according to Brendon, and

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Speaker 1: that would make sense. Get rid all the sheets and

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Speaker 1: burned them. The bedroom was totally reconfigured, totally reconfigured from

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Speaker 1: before and after there was a carpet cleaner of vacuum

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Speaker 1: cleaner bleach in the bathroom. He scoured that bedroom. He

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Speaker 1: scoured that house to get rid of any sign. He

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Speaker 1: is no stranger to DNA. Then in the garage, we

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Speaker 1: already know he used gasoline paint thinner bleach on a

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Speaker 1: garage floor. His own brother asked me once when I

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Speaker 1: asked him about that, He goes, why would you use

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Speaker 1: bleach in a garage floor? And I said, what do

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Speaker 1: you think? And he goes, Oh, guys, come on right

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Speaker 1: right there. How often do you see a man suddenly

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Speaker 1: get a neat jag vacuuming and cleaning and sting cleaning

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Speaker 1: the carpet. When has that ever happened? Ever? Oh, I

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Speaker 1: think I could clean the garage out with gas and bleach.

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Speaker 1: Brendon clean up or Stephen. Stephen Brendan helped in the garage.

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Speaker 1: He he's the one to talk about the blood or

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Speaker 1: the gas, the paint thinner, and the bleach and officers

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Speaker 1: that went into Steven's trailer when we got there, they

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Speaker 1: actually commented on the cleanliness of the smell, the bleach

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Speaker 1: smell and the cleanliness of the smell in the trailer.

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Speaker 1: So that that's my explanation. My explanation about bleeding. There's

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Speaker 1: not always a ton of blood. There's ways to limit

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Speaker 1: blood if the body, if the person is dead and

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Speaker 1: the heart's not pumping, you're not gonna have a lot

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Speaker 1: of blood active bleeding. We don't know what went on

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Speaker 1: in there. You put a blanket over and you stab someone,

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Speaker 1: that limits the bleeding it, you know, So the blood

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Speaker 1: amount of blood is an unknowing. Yep. The high school

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Speaker 1: probably know you and she yeah, possibly Yeah. Her question

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Speaker 1: was to paint lindsay since this was her student, wouldn't

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Speaker 1: she probably opened the door. He knew her and her

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Speaker 1: boyfriend and broken up and she would be alone. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she may have opened the door, But that's not what

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Speaker 1: the gb I said happened. They say that he broke

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Speaker 1: in there and he would know that. Yes, she's an

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Speaker 1: easy beautiful he's yeah, and she she may have. She

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Speaker 1: would have known him and may have trusted him enough

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Speaker 1: to let him inside. For sure, it's possible. Something I

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Speaker 1: heard you say earlier when you were doing your podcast

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Speaker 1: and here is you suggested that maybe she was just

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Speaker 1: in a state of mind to do something out of

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Speaker 1: the ordinary and wild. Are you suggesting she might have

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Speaker 1: gone to that party with Ryan and Bow. I just

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Speaker 1: think that based on the emails that I have read,

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Speaker 1: that kind of give insight into terrorist state of mind

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Speaker 1: in that time. She seemed very vulnerable to me, and

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Speaker 1: I always just gut feeling, like you get your good feelings,

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Speaker 1: thought that that might be related to her disappearance. Maybe

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Speaker 1: one person have seen them together, Oh yeah, that's for sure,

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Speaker 1: But they didn't or they just didn't say that. The

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Speaker 1: Principles barbecue, we're talking about a separate instance, a separate

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Speaker 1: party in town that night. One person. Maybe she didn't go.

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Speaker 1: Maybe she's at the barbecue at eleven o'clock, and maybe

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Speaker 1: she doesn't go straight home. Maybe she goes somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: Maybe she goes out here on the orchard where there's

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Speaker 1: a party and there's other people around. What what people

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Speaker 1: friends of Bill and Ryan and they are How old

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Speaker 1: is how oldt Okay? So maybe she went to a

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Speaker 1: party out in an orchard with a group of her

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Speaker 1: former students. Is that what you're okay? And so after

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Speaker 1: all these years, not one of those students ever came

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Speaker 1: forward and said, yeah, we saw her that night. They haven't,

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Speaker 1: but they are now the ones I'm talking to. They

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Speaker 1: are now saying that she was there an upcoming up.

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Speaker 1: What are they saying? She was at the party? Not

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Speaker 1: that specifically, But all these people, all the friends of

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Speaker 1: Bow and Ryan, most of them knew about this too.

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Speaker 1: That whatever happened, they knew about it and they kept

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Speaker 1: it as secrets. So the idea that this secret could

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Speaker 1: not be kept for so long she no, but that

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Speaker 1: they knew what happened specifically. That's that's one of my theories.

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Speaker 1: It's easier to make it make sense if she was

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Speaker 1: already out there on the orchard to me um, versus

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Speaker 1: Ryan taking her out there at her house perfect well,

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Speaker 1: the house was almost perfect, I mean, but there was

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Speaker 1: no real signs of fitting into pain Lindsay's narrative. I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying that's not true. I'm saying that that's all

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Speaker 1: that's a possibility. But Ryan Duke's pretty small guy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's confusing. I mean he's not. Yeah, Okay, there's I

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Speaker 1: promise you I am hit. Don't make her She's not.

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Speaker 1: She's tell it, tell it. Somebody is chewing pain, lindsay

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Speaker 1: a nearer intull Okay, I mean, let this lady stand

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Speaker 1: up in the purple paying ishe? Yeah? After her class

355
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Speaker 1: random out over anybody else going on? What do you

356
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Speaker 1: think two of them three years showed her? That's why? What? Well,

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Speaker 1: let me first clear this up real quickly. Mean, Tara

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Speaker 1: is the victim here. I'm not saying anything else. I

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Speaker 1: mean whatever happened to Terra was something else. No, I

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Speaker 1: literally said that there might be I think she's try

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Speaker 1: It's easy to to make it seem like I'm victim

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Speaker 1: shaming or something like that. I'm not. No. I mean

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Speaker 1: if I was shaming a victim, I wouldn't be doing

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Speaker 1: it up and vanished. I said that she might have

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Speaker 1: been vulnerable and made a decision that was out of

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Speaker 1: the norm for Tera, and going to a place where

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Speaker 1: strangers might be a decision out of the norm. I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying she had any sort of intent there. She

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Speaker 1: may have just had an open invitation and done something

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Speaker 1: out of the norm and that's why this case has

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Speaker 1: been unsuna. No, I don't think so. I think that

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Speaker 1: if anything, if Ryan may have had some sort of

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Speaker 1: obsession with her, Tara had nothing to do with Ryan.

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Speaker 1: I don't think they talked to each other over the years.

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Speaker 1: I think that it might have been something that it

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Speaker 1: could have been development, something else. What she's saying, like

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Speaker 1: you ran into her that day. I think they had

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Speaker 1: no interaction over the last three years. I just want

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Speaker 1: to always he could have seen her that night and

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Speaker 1: followed at home. I mean, it could have been that simple.

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Speaker 1: Well I've got to go okay that the Yeah the

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Speaker 1: shade who said that? Says Maurice Godwin. Okay, yeah, but

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Speaker 1: then there's still the pearls on the floor. There was

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Speaker 1: a lady in the bat yes there or you see

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00:25:54,280 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: the clips the full clip ran here. The history of

386
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: pulation really strong. I mean it's just very convincing. That

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00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: wrong testimonies, the splicing and sup there thanks uh we

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Speaker 1: uh and and thank you for that. Let me just

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Speaker 1: repeat what she said. She said the presentation yesterday showed

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Speaker 1: some of the splicing, some of the deceptive editing that

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Speaker 1: making a murderer did, and showed just just how troubling

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Speaker 1: that was. I wanted to mention and I might have

393
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Speaker 1: been mentioned before I even walked in here, but um,

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Speaker 1: I wrote a book called Avery, The Case against Stephen

395
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: Avery and what making a murderer gets wrong. It is

396
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: right here. Uh. It is by the way they sold

397
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: out here, which is fantastic, and they also, um are

398
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: taking orders and they will directly mail that to you.

399
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,479
Speaker 1: But in a a setting like this, And since this

400
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: is the first time since the book came out that

401
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: I am on the same stage with this young lady

402
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: to my left, I wanted to personally thank Nancy Grace

403
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Speaker 1: for writing the foreward to uh Avery. It's a fantastic book,

404
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: and it's also a fantastic forward, and I wanted to

405
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: personally thank you for that. Nancy, Thank you, Thank you

406
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: for coming. Okay, I swear this is the last question.

407
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: Who hasn't okay? Who has not asked a question yet?

408
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: Hit me? Is it the word question? Boy? Okay? Thank

409
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: I have an answer for that. Tom didn't the mother?

410
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: Wasn't the mother at on time in the next room,

411
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: wasn't it she come down again? We're talking about multiple

412
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Speaker 1: interviewers and on the March first interview, we contacted her.

413
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Speaker 1: We asked her if we could interview Brendan again. She

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00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: consented and when asked if she wanted to be there,

415
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: she said no, Well she didn't say she said she

416
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: had something going. She would be but she'll come down

417
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: when she's done. And then there was another time that

418
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,959
Speaker 1: you called the defense attorneys right two months later, right,

419
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Speaker 1: but there has nothing to do with it with the

420
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Speaker 1: March first interview. But two months later, two months later,

421
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: defense attorneys. Actually, this is the sad part, for defense

422
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: attorney offered him up to make another statement. What you

423
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: folks don't know is Brendan already agreed to a plea

424
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: bargain just before that last statement. So this last interview

425
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Speaker 1: with the defense attorney wanting him to give one more statement,

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00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: he'd already agreed to that fifteen year deal that we made.

427
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: It was between that time and when the weekend was

428
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: over that Brendan rejected the POLA offer that he had

429
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: to play guilty, right, and so that that last statement

430
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: was really their idea. That is, we didn't want another statement, geez,

431
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: we had plenty of statements. We don't want any more

432
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: from Brendan. At that time, that was the defense attorney's

433
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: desire and request that we take a statement one of

434
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: May and that reminds me of something that happened in

435
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: tot Mom Casey Anthony, do you remember we were right

436
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: in the middle of the try and all of a a sudden,

437
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: suddenly they recessed court and I'm like what what? They

438
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: had offered her a deal, according to reports, and her

439
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: whole defense team wanted her to take the guilty play.

440
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: She would not do it. They, knowing the case, wanted

441
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: her to play guilty. Court ended because they wanted to

442
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: talk to her about playing guilty. I did not know

443
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: that Dassy had accepted a guilty play, and his lawyers,

444
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,239
Speaker 1: even his later lawyers after Mr. Katchinsky was thrown off

445
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: the case, even his later lawyers after Avery is already convicted.

446
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,719
Speaker 1: We still offered Brendon a plea because I didn't need

447
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: assess the one anymore. But that kid didn't deserve life

448
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: in prison, and they still rejected. At the defense attorneys

449
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: did what's called a c y a letter where they said,

450
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: we've recommended this to our client. It was his decision

451
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: not to take it, we know, and effective assistance. Why

452
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,959
Speaker 1: they write that kind of letter? They were saying to Brendan,

453
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: you're going to get convicted, young man. I got a

454
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: question Alan the Duke Duke from his posh penthouse pad

455
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: and Hollywood has a question for you. Okay, I've got

456
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: a question for you, guys, because this after I watched

457
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: the Netflix series, I had a certain opinion I thought

458
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: I had. I thought that he was innocent and he

459
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: had been framed and they both of them. And but

460
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: then after digging in to it, my mind evolved. Let's say,

461
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: show of hands about this weekend. Who walked into this

462
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: crime con convention thinking Avery was innocent? Anybody, how many?

463
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: Keep your hands up if you've changed your mind during

464
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: what you've heard. So most of the folks who thought

465
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: he was innocent now think he's guilty. Is that right?

466
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: You've changed your mind in the last couple of days

467
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: of hearing these two gentlemen and their sessions and everything else.

468
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: You know, one thing that we have totally disregarded is

469
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: the jury. They heard the evidence, they heard it all,

470
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: all of it, and they voted in two separate trials

471
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: to convict Dassy and convict Avery. And I don't really

472
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: know where we get the right to question what they did,

473
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: but you know, I guess it is America. We can

474
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: question that jury verdict, but they heard it all and

475
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: they voted, and we certainly know juries can be wrong,

476
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 1: but I think they got it right. Okay, Nancy Grace

477
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: Crime Story signing off, goodbye friends,