1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: Okay, Orr, Hey, I have a physics game for you. 2 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Is that all physics is to you? Daniel game? I 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: thought he took particles in black holes seriously. Well, this 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: is a game about taking things seriously. It's called would 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: you worry? Oh man, I'm worried. Already sounds like a 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: meta game. All right. Would you worry if cern created 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: a black hole? Yes, even after all those times I 8 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: told you not to worry. I mean, you said it's 9 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: unlikely that they would create a bad black hole. But 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: if you ask me if I'm concerned that they created 11 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: a black hole? Yes, all right. Would you worry if 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: we shot a beam of high energy particles through your backyard? Yes? Also, yes, 13 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: high energy particles can never be good that kids playing 14 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: in that yard. What if we shot it through the 15 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: yard is in like underground. They won't come up, and 16 00:00:58,040 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: they will not come up. But I'm still a little 17 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: bit worried because you know, why would you do that? 18 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: Why not? Hi am or Hey, I'm a cartoonists and 19 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: the creator of PhD comics. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a 20 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: particle physicist, and I don't shoot particles at your children, 21 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: not usually, only if they're in your lawn. Is that 22 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: what happens only if they're deep deep underground your lawn. 23 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: You have a little particle shooter in your porch. Well, 24 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes particle physicists build accelerators underground. And in 25 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: the US you own the land all the way to 26 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: the center of the earth, and so you have to 27 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: get permission from people to build underneath their land. But 28 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: in other countries, like in Europe, you only own the 29 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: earth down to like fifty below your land, so the 30 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: government can build whatever accelerated they want under your property. 31 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: What are you telling me that I own my land 32 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: all the way to the center of earth, that all 33 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: the way down to the center of the earth. US 34 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: lands law says that you are the owner of that 35 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: entire what is it cone or pyramid of Earth? Wow, 36 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: I should build the biggest bunker humanity has ever seen, 37 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: very long, very thin bunker with very low gravity near 38 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 1: the center, multi tiered pools. You know, be a great apocalypse. 39 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: But anyways, welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain 40 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: the Universe, a production of Heart Radio in which we 41 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: take you all the way down to the center of 42 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: the Earth to understand what's going on underneath your feet 43 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,959 Speaker 1: are there bunkers down there are particle physicists doing experiments 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: you aren't aware of. And we zoom out to the 45 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: wider universe to help you understand why we're here, what 46 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: we're doing, and what the future holds. That's right, all 47 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: the way to the far corners of the universe, to 48 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: explore all the things that we can barely see, and 49 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: we can see and we would that we might one 50 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: day see. And we also take you down to the 51 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: very core of you, to your atoms and to your particles, 52 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: and to all the things that make you who you are. 53 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: That's right because we think the biggest game in town 54 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 1: is trying to understand what the world is made out of. 55 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: You look around and you have to wonder, why is 56 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: the world this way and not some other way? One 57 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: are the basic rules that make everything up? How do 58 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: they explain the reason why cats are so weird and 59 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: dogs are so friendly? In the end, it has to 60 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: all come down to the tiny little particle. That's right, 61 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: and the even deeper question, why are we made of 62 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: the particles that were made out of Why aren't we 63 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: made out of other particles? That's right because scientists have 64 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: discovered lots of really weird symmetries. We have a certain 65 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: set of particles, but there are other possible particles out there, 66 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: particles that you can create in high energy collisions, but 67 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: you just don't see very often. And some of those 68 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: particles are weird reflections of the particles we are made 69 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: out of. We're made out of matter, but it's also 70 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: possible to create antimatter. Yeah, because we we have the 71 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: standard model, right Daniel, that explains or that maps out 72 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: all the particles that we know about, and so there's 73 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: a big question of whether or not that model is 74 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: like done, is it wrapped up that all the matter 75 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: there is? You know, now that we found the Higgs boson, 76 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: what's left to learn about the particles that make up 77 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: matter in the universe? But there's still sort of one 78 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: unanswered question about it, right, That's right. I got more 79 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: than one unanswered question. I only have one. What is 80 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: this podcast about? But you're right, there sometimes the perception 81 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: that because we have the standard Model of physics, and 82 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: for a long time we said there was one missing piece, 83 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: the Higgs boson, And that's true. We thought that piece 84 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: existed and it was missing, and then we did find it. 85 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that questions are over. We don't 86 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: just tie a bow on it and walk away and 87 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: say that's it, we're done. We look at it and 88 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: we ask questions about it, and we say why is 89 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: it this way and not some other way. We look 90 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: at things in our universe that don't have explanations, like 91 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: why is there so much matter and not antimatter. That's 92 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: something we can't currently explain using in the complete Standard 93 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: Model of particle physics. Yeah, it's a very big question 94 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 1: that basically determines everything, because the whole universe could have 95 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: gone the antimatter way, right, Everything could have been made 96 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: out of anti matter. But somehow, for some reason, everything 97 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: is made out of matter, not antimatter, and so a 98 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: big question is whether or not we can explain that 99 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: with some of the particles that we have, namely the 100 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: new trino. That's right, one of the least explored areas 101 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: of the Standard Model are these weird new trinos. You 102 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: might have heard of them, because the Sun is pumping 103 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: them out at an incredible rate, and there's like a 104 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 1: hundred billion of them passing through your fingernail every second. 105 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: As we sit here on the surface of the Earth 106 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: and they can do a bunch of really weird stuff. 107 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: They come in three different flavors, they turn from one 108 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: into the other. But their mysteries are only beginning to 109 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: be cracked, and they could have the answers to some 110 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: of these really big questions that are still open in 111 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: particle physics. Yeah, why didn't trinos only come in three flavors? 112 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 1: Is it like vanilla, chocolate and strawberry? Can you make 113 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: neopolitan neutrinos Neopolitan ice cream from Italy? Also, that's where 114 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: neutrinos were discovered or named at least, so many connections 115 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: being made today. But you know, if there were only 116 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: three flavors in the world, would you want them to 117 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: beat chocolate, manilla, and strawberry? No, because I'm allergic to strawberry. 118 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: But that's that's probably the only reason. To be honest, 119 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: be careful what you wish for that man, I would 120 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: be like chocolate, darker chocolate and super dark chocolate and 121 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: pure chocolate chocolate. Forget the ice cream part. I just 122 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: want to block of chocolate. We need cream and ice 123 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: just just delivery mechanisms. But yeah, we don't know why 124 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: neutrinos come in three flavors. And in the last twenty 125 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: years we learned some weird things about neutrinos, like sometimes 126 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: they're made in one flavor and they can while flying 127 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,799 Speaker 1: through space turn weirdly into a different flavor, which isn't 128 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: something other particles can do. They have these really tiny 129 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: little masses, not zero, they definitely have some masks. They're 130 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: not like photons, but they're are much smaller than anything 131 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: else we've ever seen, if a very subtle flavor neutrinos. 132 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: But yeah, that's the question for today is whether or 133 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: not neutrinos could you know, explain one of the biggest 134 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: questions in particle physics. And so today on the podcast 135 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: we'll be answering the question, are neutrinos the reason why 136 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: we have matter and not antimatter in the universe. That's 137 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: a big question, Daniel. It's a big question to hang 138 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: on on one little poor particle, I know, and we 139 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: often think like, well, neutrinos hardly have any matter to them. 140 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: I mean, there's almost no mass there, so how can 141 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: they matter so much? But remember that there are lots 142 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: of them right There are billions and billions of them 143 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: in every cubic centimeter of our solar system. So even 144 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: though there are very few of them, they really add up, 145 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: you know, they're like votes. Every neutrino counts. Yeah, And 146 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: right now, there's a big experiment, right Daniel, that's trying 147 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: to answer this question. And it has a pretty cool name, 148 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: at least if you're a sci fi fan or a 149 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,679 Speaker 1: fan of SAND. I'm a fan of science fiction and SAND, 150 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: so I love this experiment. Because the United States has 151 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: made a sort of political strategic choice to not try 152 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: to have the highest energy collider in the world anymore. 153 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: We've sort of given up and let cern take over instead. 154 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: The United States communities decided we're going to focus on neutrinos. 155 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: We think neutrinos are the place to discover the new 156 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: secrets of the universe. So the biggest particle physics experiment 157 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: in the United States right now is not a huge 158 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: collider to smash particles together at the highest energy has 159 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: ever seen. But instead it's a new trino experiment to 160 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,839 Speaker 1: try to understand the mysteries of these neutrinos. And it's 161 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: called Dune d U and Deep Underground Neutrino Experiment, and 162 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: it's outside of Chicago Infirmulab. Right, that's right. It actually 163 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: stretches part of the way across the country. Yes, we'll 164 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: get into all of that, but it shoots neutrinos from 165 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: one part of the country through a bunch of backyards 166 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: to another part of the country. It's pretty amazing, all right. Well, 167 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: we were wondering how many people out there in the 168 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: Internet that had heard of this experiment, the dune experiment. 169 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: And again it's not it has nothing to do with 170 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: the spice or giant worms. You don't know that they 171 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: could discover giant worms. They are on the ground, aren't they. 172 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: Who knows what's out there. You've got to keep an 173 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: open mind every time you do an experiment. It could 174 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: be a giant water reservoir down there. But anyways, we're 175 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: wondering how many people out there had heard of this, 176 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: So as usual, Daniel went out into the wilds of 177 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: the Internet to ask this question. So thank you to 178 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: everybody who volunteered to answer these random questions. If you 179 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: would like to hear your random speculation on our podcast, 180 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: please volunteer two questions at Daniel and Jorge dot com. 181 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: So before you listen to these answers, think about it 182 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: for a second. Have you heard of the Dune experiment. 183 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: Here's what people had to say. That's another one, unfortunately 184 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: I have not heard of, unless it's referred to the 185 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: novels by Frank Herbert. I don't know if this is 186 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: an acronym, and I'm not sure what the letters stand for. 187 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 1: But since I'm in the microbiology field, I'm going to 188 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: say that it involves testing for some kind of extraterrestrial 189 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: microbes in sand or soils from other planets. So I 190 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: don't I'm blank on that one. I live five miles 191 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: from Fermilab, and I take advantage of their lecture series 192 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: and things, so I know the Done experiment. Fermilab is 193 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: shooting streams of neutrinos and anti neutrinos through the Earth 194 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: to a detector in a mile deep in South Dakota. 195 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: I no idea what the Done experiments is. Maybe I 196 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: should know this, but I hope that they will answer everything. Well. 197 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: I've definitely never heard of the Doune experiments. I hope 198 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: that they would be looking for a spice to extend 199 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: human life and make space travel more feasible. So mostly 200 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: blanks on that one, except for that one person who 201 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: lives is near it. I guess they're probably pretty aware 202 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: of it and maybe a little concern. Who knows. They 203 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: did sound very concerned. They sound more happy with themselves 204 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 1: to have heard of it. But I like the one 205 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: that's suggesting that maybe it was looking for a spice 206 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: to extend human life. That would probably get more funding 207 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: more easily. Yeah, let's fund every science fiction novel as 208 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: a particle physics experiment. There you go, lightsabers and transporter beams. 209 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: So let's get on at Daniel, send me the money. 210 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: I'll get started. All right, Well, let's step through this. 211 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: What is Dune the Deep Underground Neutrino Experiment. So this 212 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: is a really awesome new massive experiment. It's being built 213 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: right now. It's not finished yet, it's gonna be finished 214 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 1: in the next five ten years, and it's going to 215 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: try to unravel some of these mysteries, try to understand 216 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: the relationship between neutrinos and anti neutrinos and help us 217 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: understand how they could potentially give us a clue about 218 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: how antimatter all got disappeared from the universe. And it 219 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: starts at Fermilab, which is this collider facility outside of Chicago. 220 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: It's actually where I did my PhD work. It's out 221 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: in the suburbs of Chicago, near Naperville and Batavia. Interesting 222 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: and then nothing bad happened to you, at least not 223 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: if you count of PhD R. Yeah. Well there were 224 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: some adventures there, but not appropriate for this podcast. Well 225 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: maybe they are actually. Like, for example, the first year 226 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: that I worked at Fermilab, it was Halloween and I thought, hey, 227 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: Fermilab is a cookie place. Probably everybody shows up at 228 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: work in costume, right, So I showed up a work 229 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: in a clown costume, the only person in the entire 230 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: facility to wear a costume to work on Holloway makeup, wig, 231 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: the whole thing, makeup, wig, the whole thing. That was 232 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: pretty goofy. And so ten minutes in when I realized 233 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: nobody else is wearing a costume. You know, I pulled 234 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: out the bits that I could washed off the makeup, 235 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: but I was still walking around all day in oversized 236 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: blue shots. Oh man, did you become famous on campus 237 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: for that? Infamous? I thought, Really, my academic career had 238 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: tanked at that point. I would have thought that would 239 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: he paid attention to you? You think it blend in, 240 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: but you know, among the khaki shorts and stained T 241 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: shirts that really did kind of stick out. Well, that 242 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: sounds like a pretty upprovid story. But um, yeah, so 243 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: what so you guys start smashing new trinos catching neutrinos, 244 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: you're looking for a new trinos. What's involved in the experiment. Well, 245 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: what they're doing is they're making a beam of neutrinos 246 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: at Fermi Lab and then they're shooting it into a detector. 247 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: And Fermi Lab used to be the place where you 248 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: had the highest energy collisions in the world back in 249 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: two thousand. It was the energy frontier. There were no 250 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: higher energy collisions, and it was smashing protons and anti 251 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: protons together. But then it sort of lost the race 252 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: discern and it's been repurposed and they're taking that beam 253 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: of protons and they're turning it into a neutrino or 254 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: an anti neutrino being or you specause if you don't 255 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: know what's coming out. No, they do both. They have 256 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: like a knob. They can produce a beam of neutrinos 257 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: or a beam of anti neutrinas. Yeah, I'm confused because 258 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: I thought neutrino's words own anti neutrinos. Well, we don't 259 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: know right, we can produce neutrinos, and we can produce 260 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: anti neutrinos. We don't know if they're the same particle 261 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: or not. What I guess, how do you know you're 262 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: making anti neutrinos. We don't know if they're the same 263 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: thing as regular neutrinas. Yeah, that's a great question. Well, 264 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: Typically neutrinos, which are matter, are produced from decays of 265 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: other matter, and anti neutrinos, which are antimatter, are produced 266 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: from decays of other antimatter. And in these collisions, we 267 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: can make both kinds, and we can select for matter 268 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: or we can select for antimatter, and then we can 269 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: just sort of let it decay. So the way it 270 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: works is we smash protons at some target, which makes 271 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: a big mess. You get lots of crazy particles out 272 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: pions and kons and all sorts of stuff, and that 273 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: stuff usually has electric charges. So we can separate using 274 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: a mac we can say, all right, the positive ones 275 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: over here and the negative ones over here, So that 276 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: gives us like mostly matter or mostly antimatter that travels 277 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: through a long space where the kaons and pyons they 278 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: all decay into lighter particles like neutrinos that we're looking for, 279 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: and then also electrons and muons, and the Earth absorbs 280 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: all of it except for the neutrinos. And so we 281 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: don't specifically produce neutrinos or anti neutrinos. We produce stuff 282 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: which turns into neutrinos or stuff which turns into anti neutrinos, 283 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: and then we just let the Earth filter it all away. 284 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: And so that's the knob you can dial. You can 285 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: dial like smash matter or smash antimatter, like we can 286 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: produce antimatter that well, we can produce antimatter absolutely. You 287 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: just smash protons into a big heavy block of matter 288 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: graphite in this case, and you get a huge spray 289 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: of stuff, both matter and antimatter. I mean a proton 290 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: smashing into graphite. It starts out with just plus one 291 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: electric charge right because of the proton. Then you've got 292 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: a huge bunch of particles. But you can get like 293 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: plus five hundred electric charge over there and minus four 294 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: electric charge over here, So you've got a combination of 295 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: matter antimatter. Oh I see the antimatter has like the 296 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: negative charge. Yeah. In some cases in the same way, 297 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: for example, of photon can turn into an electron and oppositron, right, 298 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: so it can turn into matter and antimatter, and then 299 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: you could you can separate them and say, oh, give 300 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: me all the matter or give me all the antimatter. 301 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: And so that's what you do here. And the super 302 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: cool thing is that you're not interested in any of 303 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: it except for the new trinos. So you've got to 304 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: filter everything out like a sieve where you want to 305 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: get everything out of the way except for the new trinos. 306 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: Neutrinos the only thing you basically can't bend or turn 307 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: or stop. So the way you get everything else out 308 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: of your beam is you just slam it into the 309 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: earth and let the earth absorb all of it except 310 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: for the new trinos. Interesting, so you you produce them 311 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: at Fermulab, but then you catch them somewhere else, Like 312 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: you don't catch them right away, that's right. We produce 313 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: them a Fermulab, and we're interested in how these neutri 314 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: change over time, like do they turn mule neutrinos into 315 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 1: electron neutrinos or into town neutrinos or into anti neutrinos 316 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: or what do they do? So we've got to get 317 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: them time to do that, So we want to watch 318 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: this beam. We take a snapshot of it immediately as 319 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 1: soon as it's measured to get a sense for what 320 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: was in there, and then we take a snapshot that's 321 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: kilometers away in South Dakota. What. You shoot them in 322 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: Chicago and you catch them in South Dakota. Yeah, they're 323 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: made in the cybutse of Chicago. And then they're just 324 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: aimed through the earth like the Earth curves, and we 325 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: shoot them in a straight line, sort of under the 326 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: curve of the Earth. So they come into this mine 327 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: in South Dakota. What and nobody cares like you can 328 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,959 Speaker 1: just shoot stuff through the earth like that, You can 329 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: just shoot stuff under people's property because you know, neutrinos 330 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: do nothing. You know, you're not gonna give anybody cancer 331 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: shooting neutrinos under their house, you know, of we know, 332 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: that's right. It's sort of amazing because usually when you 333 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: make a beam of particles, you very carefully shoot it 334 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: through a vacuum because you don't want to lose any 335 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: of your particles. Like the beam that's at the LHC 336 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 1: at the Large Hadron Collider is through a very very 337 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: low vacuum tube. But here you specifically shooting neutrinos through 338 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: rock and rubble and all sorts of crazy stuff to 339 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: get rid of all the other particles. So it's sort 340 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: of awesome. Wow. All right, let's get into why we're 341 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 1: shooting this beam of natrinos to South Dakota and what 342 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: we're going to learn from them. But first let's take 343 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: a quick break, all right, Daniel, So about trillion and 344 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: the natrinas per second are being shot out of Chicago 345 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: and they're being caught in South Dakota, so that these 346 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: are going how far underground are these trina's going like 347 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: underneath me? How far would I be able to catch them? 348 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: When they hit in South Dakota, they're about a mile 349 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: underground about halfway through their trip there even further because 350 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: the courage to the earth piles above them. So they're 351 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: producing in Chicago and they're just above ground there where 352 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: they're made, and their shot into the earth, and then 353 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: they go deeper and deeper and deeper, and then the 354 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: curvage of the earth sort of curves back towards them. 355 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: But they end up about a mile underground where there's 356 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: a mine, an old mine that was used for you know, 357 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,479 Speaker 1: mining and has now been taken over by particle physics 358 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: experiments where people want to look for really rare stuff, 359 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: and they do these experiments underground so that they're not 360 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: constantly drowned out by the noise from cosmic rays particles 361 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: from space that would otherwise feel your experiments. And you're 362 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: telling me earlier that you know I technically on the 363 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: ground underneath me from my house down to the core 364 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: of the Earth. So did the US get permission from 365 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: everyone along the way or did they just did it? Nope, 366 00:19:53,119 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: they just did it. They can't build a facility the 367 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: under your house because you own it, but they can 368 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: shoot particles through it underground. Really that was a loophole. Yeah, 369 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: they don't need your permission to send cell phone signals 370 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: through your house, for example, or radio waves. It's the 371 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: same deal. I guess did they slip that in under 372 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: the same regulations like that the FTC approved this experiment. SEC. 373 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if SEC or the SC or the 374 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: POC or anything approved this, but they're doing it. And 375 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: you know, remember the neutrinos, they hardly ever interact like 376 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: they'll go through a light year of lead and have 377 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: a fifty percent chance of interacting so there are trillions 378 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 1: of neutrinos produced per second, but only a handful of 379 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: them are seen, and it takes a really really specialized, 380 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: very sensitive detector to see any of them. All right, 381 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: So tell us about that. What's on the other side 382 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,959 Speaker 1: in South Dakota in that mind, is it like a 383 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: big detector or a little detector? What's there? It's ridiculously 384 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: big detector, right, because to see neutrinos you have to 385 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 1: have something very very quiet, because neutrinos are really shy. 386 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: They hardly ever interact with the detector and they're very light. 387 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: So when they do interact, all they do is they 388 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: like bounce off a nucleus, maybe kick off an electron 389 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: or so. But that happens all the time. Like if 390 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: you just look for electrons being kicked off of nuclei, 391 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: you would see it all the time around you from 392 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: cosmic rays and from other processes. So to see it 393 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: from neutrinos, you have to get a very quiet environment 394 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: where nothing else is happening, and then listen for these 395 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: little buzzes from the electrons, and you want to see 396 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: it as often as you can, so you get a 397 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: really big volume. So what they have is like basically 398 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: a big bath a very cold liquid. They use liquid argon. 399 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: Argon is a noble gas that doesn't interact very much. 400 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 1: It's very quiet, and if you chill it down to 401 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: like minus a hundred and eighties six celsius, it turns 402 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: into a liquid. And they have these enormous containers of 403 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: this liquid argon just sitting there waiting for neutrinos to 404 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: fly through them. Interesting and when they flies through, do 405 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: they create like a ping or like an image because 406 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: they used to measure these with images, right like you 407 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: might see the trail of bubbles that the particles mad. 408 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 1: But I'm guessing these don't use that. These use are 409 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: very cool new technology. Older neutrino experiments like the ones 410 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: in Japan may have seen those. They're like a huge 411 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 1: cylinder of water surrounded essentially by cameras, photo multiplier tubes, 412 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: and those used charenk Off light, Like a neutrino comes 413 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: in and turns into a mule on which gives off 414 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: this cone of light that's then image on the side 415 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: of the detector. These are even fancier because there's an 416 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: electric field that's put through the liquid argon, so when 417 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: autrino comes in, it actually can kick off a bunch 418 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: of electrons, and you can get the whole trail of 419 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: the neutrino. You can get like a track of the 420 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: neutrino because you can pull off those electrons from deep 421 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: inside this detector. The electric field like sucks out any 422 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: of these electrons and registers of them sort of on 423 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: the side. So it's like single electrons, single electrons exactly, 424 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: And so it has to be very quiet and very clean, 425 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: but it also has to be really big, and so 426 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: experimentally that's a big challenge, right, Like, you can build 427 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: something small that performs really well, but to scale it 428 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: up is really difficult. And these tanks have ten kilo 429 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: tons of liquid ar gone, Like, these are not small devices. Well, 430 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: I guess my question is why shoot them through the earth. 431 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: Wouldn't that you know, kind of corrupt signal or you know, 432 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: damp in the signal. Why not shoot them kind of 433 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 1: straight into a detector. Well they do that also, so 434 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: they have detector immediately after the neutrinos are produced to 435 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: sort of sample the beam. They're like, well, what did 436 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: we make? Do we make mostly electron neutrinos? Do we 437 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: make mostly mule neutrinos? Etcetera. But then you also want 438 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: to see them change, And that's really the question we're asking. 439 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: It's like, do we understand how neutrinos change from one 440 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: kind into another? That's the thing that's going to help 441 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: us connect to this question of antimatter and the deeper 442 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: questions of the universe, and even you know, maybe understand 443 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: some things about exploding stars in far Way Galaxy. The 444 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: key is to understand how the neutrinas change from when 445 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: they're created to further down the road. So you want 446 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: to sort of corrupt them. You want them to interact, 447 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: to change in flight, to do the things they're going 448 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: to do, the weird stuff they can do, so then 449 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: you can catch them having done it down the roof. 450 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: But w don't you want a clear line aside? Why 451 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: would you want it to go through rock? Wouldn't that, 452 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: you know, give you a lot of things that could 453 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: have happened or unexplained phenomenon along the way. Well, if 454 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: you discover that somebody's, for example, build a bunker all 455 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: the way down to the central of the Earth, that 456 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: could really like corrupt your measurements with all their cascading 457 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: pools and demando plantations and stuff. Yeah, what if a 458 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: giant sandworm like wat's right into the beam. The first 459 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: thing is you want all that earth there to filter 460 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: out all the other particles. You need to get rid 461 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: of all the muans and the chaons and all the 462 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: other stuff, so you have a pure neutrina beams, So 463 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: you need the earth there for that also. But then 464 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: you want it to interact, and you might be thinking, well, 465 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: usually particle physicists they like things to be simple, like 466 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: let's interacted with a block of graphite or a perfect 467 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: cube of argone or something. Right, and rock and dustin 468 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: rebels seems sort of messy, But we're not very sensitive 469 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: to the details of like is it, you know, marble 470 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 1: or is it graphite or is it dense or is 471 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: it loose? Because we're integrating over like hundred miles of stuff, 472 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: and so we're not very sensitive to like exactly what 473 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: happens where We're not going to get like a picture 474 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: of the center of the Earth. We just want to 475 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: the neutrinos to do something and have to pass through 476 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: matter in order that. All right, Well, I guess the 477 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: question is what are we going to learn from this experiment? 478 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: And how does this how do you relate in neutrinos 479 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 1: to matter and antimatter because I guess, you know, you 480 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 1: hear the word neutrino, you think they're neutral, they don't care, 481 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: but maybe they do care, and maybe they had a 482 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 1: lot to do with the fact that we have matter. Yeah, well, 483 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: this this deep question, right, like why is there matter 484 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: not antimatter? And we think that in the beginning of 485 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: the universe. We suspect that matter and antimatter were made 486 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: at the same rate. We don't know why would be 487 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: anything different, And that's just an assumption, like we could 488 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: be at the very beginning of the universe there was 489 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: just more matter made than antimatter for some weird, other 490 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 1: deep reason we don't understand. But we assume, because we 491 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: like to make simple assumptions, that it was made in 492 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: a symmetric way, and that something exists that can turn 493 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 1: matter into antimatter. There's some process, something that prefers to 494 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: create matter over antimatter, because I guess in the equations 495 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: that we have now, there's nothing in them that says, oh, 496 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: obviously matter is more likely to be made. There's nothing 497 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: like the equations. They're totally equal, just opposite, They're not 498 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: equal like for a long time we thought they're totally equal. 499 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: Obviously things have to be symmetric, and there's this principle 500 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 1: charge conservation that says, if you see a process in nature, 501 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: you should be able to flip all the charges, all 502 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: the particles at up particles and see exactly the same 503 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: thing happen. It should be exactly the same. But then 504 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: we discovered that didn't actually hold true, that's not really true, 505 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: that there are some asymmetry. Interesting for example, the weak 506 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: nuclear for breaks this rule, and especially when you combine 507 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: it with this other rule about putting things in the mirror, 508 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: so together it's called CP violation, charge and parity. You 509 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: flip the charges of something and you put it in 510 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 1: the mirror, you should see the same effect, but you don't. 511 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: Often we have a whole podcast episode digging into discovery 512 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: CP violation. But this CP violation, it does give you 513 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: a reason to have more matter than antimatter, but not 514 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: nearly enough. It explains it by like one percent of it. 515 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: So there are some asymmetries. The equation do predict that 516 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: you get more matter than antimatter, but it's not big 517 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: enough to explain what we see. Interesting, what does that 518 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: mean like the violation means that it's one percent more 519 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 1: likely to get matter than antimatter from like a random, 520 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: you know, explosion of energy. We've calculated how much I 521 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: balance you need between matter and antimatter in order to 522 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: get the universe that we have now. Right, if they're 523 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: exactly matched, then you get no matter left or antimatter 524 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: left over in the universe because they all annihilate into nothing. 525 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: You need some process which will create matter more often 526 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: than antimatter in order to get extra matter left over. 527 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 1: So when all the annihilation happens, you have matter, which 528 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: is the universe that we have now. And so we've calculated, 529 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: like how much of that do you need to happen? 530 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: And we can explain about one percent of that process. 531 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: So it's not like any given particle has a one 532 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 1: percent chance of turning into antimatter. But we're looking for, 533 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: you know, a way a channel for this to happen, 534 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: and we found a few, but they're really small. They've 535 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: explained just like one percent of what we need to 536 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 1: explain the universe we see, So there's a big missing process. 537 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: Something out there really prefers turning antimatter into matter rather 538 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: than matter into antimatter and we don't know what it is, 539 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: and maybe it's new trina. Well, so then the idea 540 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: is that like matter turns into antimatter, but not symmetrically. 541 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: That is that kind of what you just said, Yeah, exactly. 542 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: So you have these processes where matter can turn into 543 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: antimatter and antimateric and turn into matter. Most of the 544 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: time it's symmetrics. So stuff just slashes back and forth 545 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: and you don't overall change the balance. But there are 546 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: a few things that preferentially produce matter that prefer to 547 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: go from antimatter to matter, and we've seen and then 548 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: they don't go back as easily, I guess exactly. They 549 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: don't go back as easily so that you don't get 550 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: an equalibrium and gradually build up an excess of matter. 551 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: But they don't explain what we've seen. You need more processes. 552 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: We're looking for the rest of them. We've seen CP violation, 553 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: these processes that produce more matter than antimatter. We've seen 554 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: it in chaons, we've seen it in b masons. But 555 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: those are very very small. They're like not big enough. 556 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: It's like we're panting for gold and we know there's 557 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: a lot of gold in the stream, but we just 558 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: keep getting dust, and we know that there are big 559 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,719 Speaker 1: nuggets out there, all right, And so is the picture 560 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: then that you know, we had the Big Bang and 561 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of both matter and antimatter got made equally. 562 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: But then over time somehow everything flipped over to matter. 563 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: Is that kind of the what we're looking for. That's 564 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: the scenario we're trying to figure out. Yeah, and not 565 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: everything flipped over to matter, just like some fraction of 566 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: it flipped over to matter, and then you had more 567 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: matter than antimatter. But you know, the anti matter all 568 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: annihilated with matter. But since you had more matter than antimatter, 569 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: some matter was left over, all right, And that's where 570 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: we came from. That's us. We are the matter that's 571 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: still here. All right. Well, let's get into then how 572 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: neutrinos could explain this in balance and also what it 573 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: means for astrophysics. But first let's take another quick break, 574 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: all right, Daniel, So how would neutrinos explain the fact 575 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: that we have more matter than antimatter? Well, there's so 576 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: many open questions about neutrinos and antimatter, like, for example, 577 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: as you said earlier, we don't even know if neutrinos 578 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: are their own anti particle, or if there are two 579 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: different particles there, Like is a neutrino and anti neutrino different. 580 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: It's so hard to tell because neutrinos hardly ever interact. 581 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: Like for a neutral particle, what does it mean to 582 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: have an antiparticle. It's like they're both charged zero right 583 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: electric charge neuero, But they and neutrins have other charges 584 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: right exactly in terms of the quantum charge exactly. Neutrinos, 585 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: like every other particle, have charges for every single force. 586 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: You have a charge for the electromagnetism, you have a 587 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: charge for the strong force, and you have a charge 588 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: for the weak force. And sometimes those charges are zero, 589 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: like the electron is a minus one charge for electromagnetism 590 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: but has no strong charge. We call that color. But neutrinos, 591 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: the only charge they have is for the weak force, 592 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: and so the antiparticle would have the anti charge. But 593 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: the weak force is so weak that's very difficult to study, 594 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: and that's what makes these experiments so difficult. And Dune 595 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: doesn't measure neutrinos turning into anti neutrinos directly. Instead, what 596 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: it does is ask whether muon neutrinos turned into electron 597 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: neutrinos the same way that anti muan neutrinos like to 598 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: turn into anti electron neutrinos. So it flips the whole 599 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,479 Speaker 1: process and measures the antimatter version of it. These effects 600 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: are very subtle. You can't like look at one particle 601 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: and see what's happening and to build it up over time. 602 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: It takes a lot of experiments before you can actually 603 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: see these effects because it's the weak force. Because it's 604 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: the weak force. What is the weak force charge called, 605 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: It's called the weak hypercharge. Okay, so then neutrinos have 606 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: a charge, a weak hypercharge. And so if there are 607 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: anti neutrinos, then what are you saying those would be 608 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: flipped or those would not be flipped, or we don't know. 609 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: We don't know. If they are their own antiparticle, they 610 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't be flipped. If they aren't. If there is a 611 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: separate anti neutrino, then it would be flipped. And what 612 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: we're interested in is how do neutrinos turn into anti 613 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: neutrinos and back If there's a big asymmetry there, if 614 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: anti neutrinos like to turn into neutrinos more than neutrinos 615 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: like to turn into anti neutrinos, if they even are 616 00:32:54,800 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: as every particles confused, You're you're asking, like, could an 617 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: anti neutrino trend too neutrino? If and and I turned 618 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: neutrino is not the same as a neutrino. There's so 619 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: many things we don't understand about this. It's like a 620 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: big black box. We don't know what's going on inside. 621 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: And because we don't know what's going on inside, it 622 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: gives us a lot of options for things that could explain, 623 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: like if they are not the same, so matter and 624 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: antimatter are not the same for neutrinos, and anti neutrinos 625 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: like to turn into neutrinos more than neutrinos like to 626 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: turn into anti neutrinos. That could account for why we 627 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: have more matter than anti matter. It could have been 628 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: essentially that a bunch of neutrinos are being made and 629 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: then neutrinos can turn into other kinds of matter, like 630 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: a neutrino can turn into an electron and a w 631 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: boson what so like we could have come from neutrinos. Yeah, absolutely. 632 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: Some of our particles certainly did come from neutrinos. I 633 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: always thought there was a little italianan, just a little 634 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: bit one percent your your j All right, Well, I 635 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: guess what I don't standard is, you know, does have 636 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: hypercharge for the week fours? You know, why can't I 637 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: just flip that charge and call it an anti neutrino, 638 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: Like it's possible. Why would you think that flipping the 639 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 1: hypercharge would make it the same thing. Well, we don't 640 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: know necessarily what the universe thinks about this symmetry. We 641 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: don't know that the opposite particle can exist. Why is 642 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: there an opposite to the electron. It's not like you're 643 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: allowed to demand that every opposite particle exists, Like we 644 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: see the opposite particle for the electron, and for the 645 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: proton and for quarks, but we don't know why they exist. 646 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: So it's not like we can claim that every particle 647 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: should have its antiparticle. And we're doing these experiments to 648 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: try to figure out, Like we do a whole different 649 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 1: set of experiments called neutrino lists double beated decays, where 650 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: they try to see neutrinos and anti neutrinos annihilating or not. 651 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: So I guess you're asking, like, if I make neutrinos 652 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 1: from antimatter, doesn't make the same neutrinos as regular matter 653 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: or does it make like the one with the hard 654 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: flipped exactly? Can we tell any difference? And that's why 655 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 1: they do this experiment in two modes where they produced 656 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: neutrinos and then they look to see what happens, and 657 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: then they produce anti neutrinos and they look to see 658 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: what happens. And one thing they're curious about is do 659 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,439 Speaker 1: they see any difference. Do neutrinos and anti neutrinos turn 660 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 1: into different stuff as they fly through the Earth or 661 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,280 Speaker 1: do they act exactly the same way. And the exciting 662 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: thing is that there were some experiments done in Japan 663 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: that saw a hint, that saw a clue that suggested 664 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: maybe there was a difference. Really, what did they see. 665 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: They saw that neutrinos do like being a matter, not antimatter. Yeah, 666 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: they saw a hint of exactly this, and they weren't 667 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: powerful enough to really detect it. It It was just like 668 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: a little glimmer, or it could have been a fluctuation. 669 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: But this is a sort of similar experiment in Japan 670 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: where they produced neutrinos in a collider and then they 671 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 1: send it underground to this other experiment, which which originally 672 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: was looking for neutrinos from the sun, but now they're 673 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: piling neutrinos into it through the Japanese bedrock. And that 674 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: experiment where they have a big heavy water container surrounded 675 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 1: by by cameras looking for flashes from the neutrinos turning 676 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: into muans or electrons or whatever. And they saw a 677 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: hint and it was not significant, like they didn't have 678 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: enough data to really say they found it, but they 679 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,879 Speaker 1: had enough data to suggest that it might be real. 680 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: And that's the kind of motivation you need when you're 681 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: spending you know, a billion dollars on an underground experiment 682 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: in South Dakota. All right, So if we find that 683 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: neutrinos like matter more than antimatter, or becoming matter more 684 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: than antimatter, then that would explain the whole universe, right, 685 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: It totally could, because there are so many matrinos in 686 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: the universe that might explain why because we have more 687 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: matter than antimatter. That's right, because it all came from 688 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: neutrinos who would like more matter than antimatter, that's right, 689 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: and the other particles would like to make matter versus antimatter. 690 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: The kons and the bees, they just do it a 691 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: tidy a little bit. It could be the neutrinos do 692 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: it a lot, like all the time, like they really 693 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: heavily prefer making matter versus antimatter. So it could be 694 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: a mass of effect. It's exciting because we really just 695 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: don't know, like we don't know what the answer is 696 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: going to be. It could be a very small effect 697 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: and explain nothing. It could be zero, it could be huge. 698 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,720 Speaker 1: You could be like, what these things are all turning 699 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: into neutrinos all the time, and anti neutrinos aren't even 700 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: really a thing. So it's exciting for us as particle 701 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: physicists when we don't know the answer. It's much less 702 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: exciting when like the theorists tell us, here's the Higgs boson. 703 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: We know what it looks like, go find it. We 704 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: know what to do, and we didn't do it. It's 705 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: like box checking, you know. Oh man, So when the 706 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 1: Higgs post found, you're like, I hate it when you're 707 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: right out of principle, I will not support this. Well, 708 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,280 Speaker 1: you know, there was a lot of drama and political 709 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: intrigue and uncertainty in the quest for the Higgs boson, 710 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: which will dig into soon in an episode, but a 711 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah, it's would have been more exciting to 712 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,880 Speaker 1: not see the Higgs and to see something else crazy, 713 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: which made the theorist go, what So as an experimentalist, 714 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: it's more fun to discover something unexpected. So it's nice 715 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: here when we don't know the answer and we've got 716 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: to go and measure it, because to me, that's the excitement, right, 717 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: That's what's interesting about being an experimentalist. You're exploring the universe, 718 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: you're asking you questions, and you don't always know what 719 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: the answer is going to be interesting. All right, Well, 720 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 1: let's take this conspiracy theory to the next level. Dannual 721 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 1: and as could neutrinas even be responsible for dark matter? 722 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: How do you tie those two together? Well, you know 723 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,800 Speaker 1: that dark matter is something that's out there. It's massive, 724 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: there's a huge amount of it. It's like an explanation 725 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: for all the gravity that we see out there that 726 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: we can't explain. Otherwise, there's no mass that can explain 727 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: all the gravity that we see. So naturally, people thought 728 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: for a long time well, what if it's just a 729 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: bunch of neutrinos, Like we know they're neutrinos everywhere, we 730 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: can hardly see them. They're basically dark, and there's a 731 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: lot of them. What if there's just like a huge, 732 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: ridiculous amount of neutrinos and that would be enough to 733 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: explain the dark matter, right, or not just a lot 734 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: of netrinas, but maybe like really really massive netrinas. Yeah, 735 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: So originally people thought, what if it's just a lot 736 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: of the vanilla neutrinos, the strawberry neutrinos, the ones we're 737 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 1: familiar with, right, But they ruled that out because neutrinos 738 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: are very very light and move away too fast, and 739 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: so they can't explain all the structure we see in 740 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: the universe. To see how galaxies formed and stars get 741 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: pulled together, we need the gravity from dark matter to 742 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: be sort of slow moving. It can't be zooming everywhere 743 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,399 Speaker 1: in the universe, or we just would have spread everything out. 744 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: So we know that if it is a neutrino, that 745 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: has to be a new kind of neutrino, like a weird, 746 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: new heavy neutrino, like very massive neutrino, like pure chocolate neutrinos, 747 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: like just the chunk of chocolate. Are you saying that 748 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 1: chocolate are not a good weight loss technique. If so, 749 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: then I'm in trouble over here. I'm saying dark matter 750 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: could be dark chocolate new theory. What are you doing, Daniel, 751 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: I'm just eating dark chocolate to get an ideas for 752 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: a dark matter, right, it's it's research, filling myself up 753 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: with the potential hypothesis. There you go, that's right, it's 754 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 1: intellectual food. So yeah, it could be that there's a 755 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 1: new kind of neutrino, like a fourth mind of neutrino. 756 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 1: We currently know about electron mule and town intrinos, but 757 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: there could be another kind out, a heavy one that 758 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 1: we don't even know about. We don't know about as 759 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 1: we haven't seen and there are a few other places 760 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 1: in physics where we've seen hints that suggests maybe there 761 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 1: is one, but they're not conclusive. Like there was an 762 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,760 Speaker 1: experiment in Los Almos, actually my hometown, that saw neutrinos 763 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: sort of disappearing in a way that we couldn't explain, 764 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: and they explained it in terms of a weird new 765 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: sterile neutrino that it's really hard to make, and it's 766 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: very heavy, and very occasionally neutrinos sort of disappear into 767 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: that sector. Interesting. And so an experiment like this, like 768 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: Dune that very precisely makes a huge number of neutrinos 769 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: and studies them and their antimatter. If Starren neutrinos are 770 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 1: a thing and are possible, then they could see some 771 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: of these neutrinos sort of disappearing into the dark sector, 772 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, because they can count the number of neutrinos 773 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: they expect to see, and if they see too few, 774 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: then they might be evidence that these things are turning 775 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: into something else, something invisible to them. Interesting. It's basically 776 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: like a really fancy and upgraded neutrino gun. Yes, it's 777 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,919 Speaker 1: a neutrino gun and a neutrino camera, and they point 778 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 1: the gun at the camera and it's the more powerful 779 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: gun than anybody's ever built and a more sensitive camera 780 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: than anybody's ever built. And so we're gonna get a 781 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: new window into neutrinos. And another cool thing is that 782 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: we're not the only people who have built neutrino guns. 783 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: Like it turns out that the universe is filled with 784 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: neutrino guns and this new power maybe and this new 785 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: powerful neutrino camera will let us see neutrinos produced by 786 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: other sources, not just you know, conspiracy theories in Chicago. Interesting, 787 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: So the same camera under South Dakota a mile down 788 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 1: could see neutrino bursts from other things in the universe, 789 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: like like supernova as you were telling me, Yeah, supernovas 790 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: are these amazing events where an entire star collapses and 791 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: then explodes, and we really want to understand how that happens, 792 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: and do they turn into black holes and how often 793 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: and you know, the details, the blow by blow of 794 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: what happens in those events, and there's a lot of 795 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: mystery because we can't see them very directly. They're very 796 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 1: far away. And one big problem is that they're complicated, 797 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,760 Speaker 1: and so like light is produced in the first moments 798 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: of the supernova, but then it gets reabsorbed, so you 799 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 1: don't see it, and it takes a while for the 800 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: light to sort of like make it out through the 801 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: shock wave before it comes to us. But neutrinos are 802 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 1: a great way to see supernovas because supernovas make a 803 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 1: huge number of them, and they're not reabsorbed by the supernova. 804 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: They come right through. They shoot right out from the 805 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: heart of that event, that crazy cosmic collapse, and tell 806 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,800 Speaker 1: us about the very first few moments of what's happening 807 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,360 Speaker 1: in the supernova. We can use this neutrino camera basically 808 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: to take pictures of the insides of supernovas well. Do 809 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: you have to like point it to the supernova? We're 810 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: not pointing this ten kill a ton of liquid argne 811 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: at anything, dude, That's what I was asking, Like, I 812 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 1: guess it's it easier to move Earth then, Like, do 813 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:02,840 Speaker 1: you you rotate the Earth in a different way or 814 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: what he did? Yeah, we've got a nob over here. 815 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 1: We can just turn the Earth anyway. We like, it's 816 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: in a pivot, right, I'm sure. Yeah. When you're late 817 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:10,800 Speaker 1: with a deadline, you're just like, could you just stop 818 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 1: the Earth at please? You don't do anything like that. 819 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: You just sort of like, look, what you do is 820 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: you turn off the neutrino gun at Fermi Lab and 821 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 1: you just let the experiment be quiet. So basically, any 822 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: time the beam is not on, you can use it 823 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: to observe the universe and you can't point it at anything. 824 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: But we think that these sources come from everywhere, and 825 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 1: we're shielded by a mile of rock that prevents anything 826 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: but neutrinos from getting down through the earth to this camera. 827 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: And so you just you know, basically point your camera 828 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: up at the sky, straight up and see what you see. 829 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: All right, Well, it sounds like neutrinos could hold the 830 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: key to the universe somehow, and conveniently that's where a 831 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 1: lot of our funding is going in physics in the US. 832 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 1: But when it's this experiment gonna go online, Daniel, Well, 833 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,799 Speaker 1: they're building it now and they hope to have the 834 00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: first part of it done in four has ever built 835 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,879 Speaker 1: one this big or this complicated before. So they built 836 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,479 Speaker 1: like a mini version of proto version, which worked well. 837 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: But they think the first full scale piece will be 838 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: done in and the whole thing will be complete, and 839 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: then you have to run it for a few years. 840 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 1: So like we might be looking at an answer in 841 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,320 Speaker 1: like and it's an exciting place to look, mostly because 842 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 1: it's a hard place to look. And that's also the 843 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 1: reason why it's still a place to look. You know, 844 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 1: we look for obvious answers. We do the easiest things first. 845 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: Neutrinos are the hardest things to study and that's why 846 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 1: they still have these mysteries because they're sort of shrouded, 847 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 1: and so we had to up our game and like 848 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,879 Speaker 1: figure out ways to see them and to study this deep, dark, 849 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 1: hidden sector of the standard model to see if it 850 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,239 Speaker 1: has any of the secrets, any of the answer to 851 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: these open questions. Now, I guess my question is, even 852 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,840 Speaker 1: neutrinos turned out to be the key to the matter 853 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: and antimatter mystery, which means that they're not neutral, do 854 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: you have to rename them, Daniel, Well, they could, because 855 00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: they're not neutral anymore. They're still neutral from the point 856 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,279 Speaker 1: of the electromagnet to them. But you're right, they're not 857 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,319 Speaker 1: totally neutral. I mean, they do even have mass, which 858 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,799 Speaker 1: gives them an effect, a gravitational charge. But neutrina is 859 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,280 Speaker 1: such a cute word that if we're going to rename 860 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: any of the particles, it's not it's got a special 861 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,319 Speaker 1: place in your heart. How about the spice, We could 862 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 1: call it the spice, the chocolate spice, chocolate spice ones. 863 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that. And maybe 864 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: as you look up and imagine those trillings and neutrinos 865 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,799 Speaker 1: going through you right now, maybe they have the key 866 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,880 Speaker 1: to understanding why we're here and why the universe is 867 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 1: the way it is. That's right, and we're always interested 868 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,960 Speaker 1: in exploring something we have not yet looked at, because 869 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,040 Speaker 1: under every rock we haven't turned over could be the 870 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,439 Speaker 1: answer to an open question in physics, or it could 871 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 1: be something else, something new, something totally unexpected. The history 872 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,400 Speaker 1: of science is filled with people building an experiment to 873 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: answer one question, but accidentally stumbling over the answer to 874 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: a totally different question they might not have even known 875 00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,120 Speaker 1: to ask. Either way, it's fun and we learned a 876 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: lot about as right, and it gives the US particle 877 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,400 Speaker 1: physics community something to do, because you don't want them 878 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 1: pointing any other kinds of particle guns at anybody else's backyard. 879 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,080 Speaker 1: That's right, Your children are safe, all right. Well, thanks 880 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:24,280 Speaker 1: for joining us, See you next time. Thanks for listening, 881 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and JORGEG Explain the Universe is 882 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,440 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast for 883 00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,319 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 884 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,800 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.