Speaker 1: Hello, point of origin listeners. It's Steven Saderfield and before
Speaker 1: we begin today's episode, I feel I must acknowledge the
Speaker 1: enormity of the global crisis we now face. COVID nineteen
Speaker 1: has claimed the lives of thousands all over the world
Speaker 1: and sadly untold numbers more we more in the loss
Speaker 1: of life and livelihood, and particularly the collapse of the
Speaker 1: US restaurant industry. I thought that is so difficult to
Speaker 1: imagine that I'm not yet sure I can process its magnitude.
Speaker 1: Today's interview is with Palestinian and Syrian chef and restaurants
Speaker 1: who are Realms Hill Ream just one week before her
Speaker 1: restaurants opening, and I had a chance to talk about
Speaker 1: her forthcoming restaurant and what now seems like a very
Speaker 1: long time ago and a much simpler times as MS
Speaker 1: Place was closed down just two days after opening and
Speaker 1: is now closed indefinitely. As we all collectively await the
Speaker 1: fate of restaurants all over the country and over the world,
Speaker 1: so we decided to play this interview in its entirety
Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons. The first is that Realm
Speaker 1: is a brilliant and important voice in the North American
Speaker 1: restaurant industry, and we wanted to allow the proper space
Speaker 1: for her wisdom and experience to come to the fore.
Speaker 1: And you know, related to the crisis itself, what you
Speaker 1: will hear is a brilliant person who's unique background in
Speaker 1: worldview was really ahead of the curve in so many ways.
Speaker 1: And what you will hear was a very broken system
Speaker 1: within the restaurant industry. So when I believe this interview
Speaker 1: provides for for us is a bit of organizational and
Speaker 1: UH an intersectional roadmap for how we might be able
Speaker 1: to better organize ourselves on the other side of this. So,
Speaker 1: without further ado chef and Restaurants or reem a Seal, Hello, Hey,
Speaker 1: there you go. Well, I really appreciate you taking time.
Speaker 1: How are you spending your days these days? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: sort of toggle between Footville and mission, but mostly trying
Speaker 1: to open this space in the mission. And I believe
Speaker 1: I read family life Hello right, shrinking somewhere shrinking. They
Speaker 1: understand Mama, Mama's gotta get these bills paying. You know,
Speaker 1: we just hired a new staff. It's a group of
Speaker 1: ten lovely people. I'm like trying had to get too
Speaker 1: attached them, like these are all natural board leaders. Like
Speaker 1: we just had a three day training with all of them,
Speaker 1: and it's not like your average restaurant training. I think
Speaker 1: they're not a lot of them, you know, have like
Speaker 1: come from the traditional setting where they just like go
Speaker 1: around and they're a body anywhere they apply, And here
Speaker 1: it's like no, like we're going to talk about systems
Speaker 1: of oppression. It's like these are what our murals are.
Speaker 1: Expect you all to like know these things, and we
Speaker 1: did like Arab hospitality one oh one. So it's it's
Speaker 1: cool to kind of see people, to spark in people's
Speaker 1: eyes and like really kind of we we did a
Speaker 1: really good job sort of like waning it down to
Speaker 1: ten solid leaders and then hopefully it'll grow. Definitely, I
Speaker 1: want to talk about some of the stuff you just
Speaker 1: brought up, beginning with systems of oppression. So if I
Speaker 1: come expecting to a restaurant job and um, I'm started,
Speaker 1: I'm talking about systems of oppression, how do you lead
Speaker 1: into that conversation. Well, it's it's more subtle. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think part of what our job is. I think,
Speaker 1: as as people who maybe come from a more privileged
Speaker 1: background of understanding social justice, and like, you know, speaking
Speaker 1: work for myself, I'm college educated and like my awakening,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think being a Palestinian, you're always politicized
Speaker 1: from a very early age. So I understood systems of
Speaker 1: oppression to some extent. And I think, you know, community
Speaker 1: is especially once who've been marginalized sort of understand it intrinsically.
Speaker 1: They just maybe haven't been given the resources to articulate it.
Speaker 1: So you know, what we sess out is just sort
Speaker 1: of and our interviews we talk about sort of realms
Speaker 1: core values, and then we have internal core values too,
Speaker 1: so we have external all sort of the way that
Speaker 1: we want the world to be and the way that
Speaker 1: we want that to be reflected in our business. You know,
Speaker 1: things like centering folks of color, immigrants, women, queer folks. First,
Speaker 1: you know, supporting the local ecosystem, an already vibrant ecosystem,
Speaker 1: you know, whether it be supporting local farmers or local businesses,
Speaker 1: or providing our space to community organizations. And then community building,
Speaker 1: which is like the most universal one. You know, like
Speaker 1: you can't really organize unless you build trust and community
Speaker 1: and cohesion, and you know, at it's very basics, that's
Speaker 1: REALMS mission is to to build that community. So just
Speaker 1: sort of having a conversation with people about that, but
Speaker 1: then we really get we get deep where like these
Speaker 1: are our core values. We have like four five core
Speaker 1: values that we ask people, like, tell people right off
Speaker 1: the bat, this is what we're looking for, and then
Speaker 1: just see how they talk about it and react to
Speaker 1: it and apply it to their daily lives. And you'd
Speaker 1: be really surprised how much people really sort of understand
Speaker 1: some of those core values. Sure, Um, well, the the
Speaker 1: ultimate one. We we talk about integrity, So we want
Speaker 1: people who are honest, who really believe in just mutual
Speaker 1: respect and they would act the same way when people
Speaker 1: are watching then when people are not watching, right, Um,
Speaker 1: that they really value sort of the basic tenets of
Speaker 1: human rights, right the people to stand in their dignity
Speaker 1: and treat everyone that way. Um. We talk about commitment.
Speaker 1: Commitment is a big thing, I feel like we and
Speaker 1: it's hard in this economy where it is there's so
Speaker 1: much instability. Like we're asking people to take that leap
Speaker 1: of faith to commit to commit to this job, to
Speaker 1: commit to the vision of realms. It doesn't mean they
Speaker 1: have to stay forever, but they're we're asking them to
Speaker 1: give us a commitment and commitment to themselves and their team.
Speaker 1: So that's a really big one. We ask um desire
Speaker 1: to grow, just like we want people who really not
Speaker 1: just like our open feedback, will want to grow, want
Speaker 1: to be transformed to think that, especially if you're going
Speaker 1: to spend most of your time in the workplace, it
Speaker 1: should be a transformative space. So, you know, we talk
Speaker 1: about transformation in our communities and how we want to
Speaker 1: do that for our customers, but really, you know, you
Speaker 1: could teach some of them, but you know, and and
Speaker 1: and the world is tough out there. You know, sometimes
Speaker 1: it brings out the worst in us, even those of
Speaker 1: us who you know have the potential to be our best. UM,
Speaker 1: So we try to like really probe and and find
Speaker 1: and learn about people and how they are in their
Speaker 1: lives more than like how they are in the workplace,
Speaker 1: because we understand that the workplace, especially in the restaurant industry,
Speaker 1: is just plagued with racism, classism, able is um, all
Speaker 1: of the things, right, So like it's it's hard to
Speaker 1: just use that as an assessment for who we've ring
Speaker 1: into the space, right, And I have to say, you're
Speaker 1: speaking with a particular depth in fluency on this subject.
Speaker 1: And if I'm not mistaken, don't you have a background
Speaker 1: as a community organizer. Yeah? Right, so this is this
Speaker 1: is all like new language and as someone who grew
Speaker 1: up in restaurants, really new ideas about what's possible. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like it's it's so interesting. I approach sort of
Speaker 1: building my restaurant as an entrepreneur, like an organizer, Like
Speaker 1: I mean, I was a labor organizer. I used to
Speaker 1: you know, underground organized like airport workers and service workers,
Speaker 1: people who wouldn't even tell me what they were making
Speaker 1: on an hourly wage because they're afraid of retaliation. I
Speaker 1: remember like those first days finally, like after recruiting ten people,
Speaker 1: getting them in a room together and saying, this is
Speaker 1: the beginning, right, this is the beginning of building your power.
Speaker 1: I take. I think a lot of this skills that
Speaker 1: I built as an organizer sort of helped translate to
Speaker 1: this setting where you know you're as an organizer, you're
Speaker 1: a facilitator, right, Um, you are obviously you're a leader,
Speaker 1: you're you're inspiring folks, but you're more behind the scenes
Speaker 1: to find to find ways to draw out the collective
Speaker 1: power that's already there, you know. Um, and I think
Speaker 1: that where this butts up and against sort of the
Speaker 1: limitations working in sort of a capitalist system where you've
Speaker 1: gotta you know, you gotta keep moving, you gotta make money,
Speaker 1: you gotta turn a profit as you can't you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to find the ways to find that
Speaker 1: time to make that transformation. But we have done it.
Speaker 1: You know, We've taken the short term hit with the
Speaker 1: hope that the investment in people, you know, spending time
Speaker 1: and paying people to come for trainings and U spend
Speaker 1: that time for them to really sort of understand their
Speaker 1: skill set and be self perflective as a way to
Speaker 1: like invest long term. I think about that even with
Speaker 1: my staff have stayed with me to three to four years, Like,
Speaker 1: how do we make sure that we continue to show
Speaker 1: people growth and to get to new to inspire people
Speaker 1: and motivate them. Um, that work doesn't just like stop
Speaker 1: at one training, But unfortunately, it takes time and it
Speaker 1: takes resources. And you know, I hope, I hope that
Speaker 1: I'm sharing a model that would resonate with other like
Speaker 1: minded folks in the industry where we could combine forces
Speaker 1: to do more of that to scale because I think,
Speaker 1: you know, not that we're going to start a revolution
Speaker 1: within the industry, but most of low income communities of
Speaker 1: color are working in the industry. It's one of the
Speaker 1: It is, I think, the biggest employer of people in
Speaker 1: the country. So why not start somewhere where we have
Speaker 1: masses of people we have that can galvanize and politicize
Speaker 1: and transform, you know. So yeah, I think we don't
Speaker 1: beat people over the head with any of our politics,
Speaker 1: but we really sort of hope that the space is
Speaker 1: politicizing in and of itself. Right, And to your point,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of the conversations around the increase
Speaker 1: in minimum wage, and in fact the actualization of that
Speaker 1: increase can be credited to fast food workers campaigning. So this,
Speaker 1: this mentality is obviously ingrained in you and your background.
Speaker 1: Have you reached a point yet as an entrepreneur and
Speaker 1: business owner in which your values in your background as
Speaker 1: an organizer have felt challenged or conflicted as an entrepreneur
Speaker 1: in business owner. When I made the switch to become
Speaker 1: an entrepreneur, like I understood the contradictions, I struggled with
Speaker 1: them for a little bit. You know, as someone who
Speaker 1: has deep resentment for capital is m as a system
Speaker 1: and understand that it is not the way and that
Speaker 1: we won't really have true democracy or true liberation in
Speaker 1: the context of capitalism. I also understand that in order
Speaker 1: to you know, fight the good fight and to imagine
Speaker 1: an alternative system, we need to build the resilience and
Speaker 1: resources in our community. So we need we need to
Speaker 1: take care of our own. You know, I would say
Speaker 1: that I am trying to be outside the box, right,
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit on the fringes of all of
Speaker 1: it because I don't operate my business in in the
Speaker 1: most traditional sense. You know, if you look at all
Speaker 1: the rules of the game. You know, we run at
Speaker 1: labor Liant, and we build our model around the we
Speaker 1: you know this, this restaurant is not just a restaurant space.
Speaker 1: We provide a business that is the destination spot and
Speaker 1: hits the you know, all the coolests. Like we understand
Speaker 1: that we are those contradictors. You know that we live
Speaker 1: in that contradiction. Like we need the people with more
Speaker 1: disposable income to understand and spend money on us and
Speaker 1: pay for the true cost of food. Right, we need
Speaker 1: to keep our prices high so that we can pay
Speaker 1: our workers, but then we don't want to price out
Speaker 1: our own community. So I'm constantly grappling with how do
Speaker 1: I have both and um, you know, because you need that,
Speaker 1: and um, yeah, I mean the way I think about
Speaker 1: it is that, you know, restaurants are a conduit there
Speaker 1: a conduit from urban to rural areas, or a conduit
Speaker 1: from the rich to the poor that you know, like
Speaker 1: we're Yeah, I'm constantly having to come up around hard
Speaker 1: decisions around what's my values? Who who do we serve
Speaker 1: versus who we do do we not serve? Like what
Speaker 1: do we make explicit versus implicit? Um? You know, obviously
Speaker 1: I took a really bold stance and Fruitville putting you know,
Speaker 1: Palestinian activists on my wall. Um, I just I didn't
Speaker 1: realize it was a problem until there was a sobering
Speaker 1: reality the um of this political context that we're in.
Speaker 1: So there are often times where I like, I don't
Speaker 1: I think it's a problem until you know, then I'm
Speaker 1: met with challenges and then I have to you know,
Speaker 1: I'm I Then I'm faced with a choice either hied
Speaker 1: or being visibilized the way you have, you know, And
Speaker 1: and in times of my life, you know, I've had
Speaker 1: to do that and my community has had to do
Speaker 1: that or you know, double down and and be more outspoken,
Speaker 1: and luckily I've chose the latter. Um. You know, I
Speaker 1: think being outspoken has been really my greatest asset and
Speaker 1: my best tool to really help other people come out
Speaker 1: of the trenches and you know, join with me. But yeah,
Speaker 1: certainly it's not easy on a day to day basis
Speaker 1: to run a business. I mean even things of like
Speaker 1: where I source, you know, like we unfortunately need to
Speaker 1: rely on the gig economy of like delivery service. As
Speaker 1: an entrepreneur myself agree and underscore the need for multiple
Speaker 1: strategies in transformation like Um, so I want to talk
Speaker 1: to you about that controversy of having an activist that really,
Speaker 1: I feel was a definitive moment for you. I'm interested
Speaker 1: in that you did something that doesn't happen very often,
Speaker 1: which is stand your ground and really emerge within this
Speaker 1: our institution will say of the culinary, conventional culinary world
Speaker 1: and media even more beloved. Dare I say, um as
Speaker 1: someone who has observed your work for the last few
Speaker 1: years and up close, So, um, how do you feel
Speaker 1: after that situation. I just want to know how you're
Speaker 1: feeling in light of that. Yeah, I mean I still
Speaker 1: really emotional about it. I think that, um, I'm really
Speaker 1: really lucky. I mean, if the older version of myself
Speaker 1: talked to the younger version of myself, I would have
Speaker 1: told her, like, built community as soon as possible, because like,
Speaker 1: I don't think that I could have stood my I mean,
Speaker 1: I had a lot of people who came to my support.
Speaker 1: So when I when we first got those attacks, you know,
Speaker 1: organizations that I had worked for for years, worked with
Speaker 1: for years basically like came to my side and like
Speaker 1: set up an SS system and helped me build my narrative,
Speaker 1: and it really helped me build the like inner strength
Speaker 1: to to say, no, this is who I am and
Speaker 1: this is this is I mean, clearly I had an
Speaker 1: affinity towards wanting to make a stand. I called my
Speaker 1: food Arab food rather than Middle Eastern or Mediterranean. Like,
Speaker 1: you know, I was already making subtle political stances from
Speaker 1: the very beginning. I may have not realized that, um
Speaker 1: so this was just another part of that mission. And
Speaker 1: so to have people by my side helping me build
Speaker 1: those sort of inner reserves. I think is is really
Speaker 1: what what helped me get through that process. So I'm yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like that that was a group effort. I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously it took courage for me to do that, but
Speaker 1: it just made me see the power of like community
Speaker 1: and and and what I've built and what we've built.
Speaker 1: You know, obviously it's scary running a business and ann
Speaker 1: the ebbs and flows, but like you, it's sort of
Speaker 1: like a security blanket, like I just know that my
Speaker 1: community is going to have my back. But that doesn't
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't negate all of the trauma and
Speaker 1: the experiences I've had and sort of witnessed sort of
Speaker 1: on the on the periphery of myself, my community. Any
Speaker 1: time that we are our identity as Palestinians were punished,
Speaker 1: you know, certainly rest me a who's who who you
Speaker 1: know as an activist in my wall. And now that
Speaker 1: I know, you know, she lost the little battle. She's
Speaker 1: still winning because she is resilient and continuing to do
Speaker 1: the work that she's doing in Jordan's after her deportation.
Speaker 1: But it does feel like a little loss for our community,
Speaker 1: you know. Um, And I think about all of these
Speaker 1: these folks have taken a stance who did it for
Speaker 1: the greater good, and you know you were murderred or
Speaker 1: you know, lost their jobs over it. So like the
Speaker 1: community that had your back is entirely a reflection of
Speaker 1: you and all of the love and earnestness that you
Speaker 1: put out in the world when you were building that community,
Speaker 1: and in just your existence has done so much for
Speaker 1: so many people who are not even Palestine, you know,
Speaker 1: but just in terms of creating that much needed space
Speaker 1: for so many of us. Um, So I appreciate you
Speaker 1: for that. Thank you. Yeah, I'd like to think this
Speaker 1: this really intersects. I mean, intersectionality is a big piece
Speaker 1: of the work that I do. So you know, this
Speaker 1: is just a it's a it's a symbol of the
Speaker 1: bigger issues. Right. Last night, Selene, who is our producer
Speaker 1: for this podcast, she came to see you talk, um,
Speaker 1: and she told me this really great quotes which I'm paraphrasing,
Speaker 1: basically went like, if you build it, then they will
Speaker 1: come build it with me, right, which I feel isn't
Speaker 1: a perfect encapsulation of what you're saying right now about
Speaker 1: the community. So, UM, tell me if I got that right, Like,
Speaker 1: what your philosophy is on that. Yeah. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: what I was saying last night was like a lot
Speaker 1: of people are just like build it and they will come,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, let them build it with me, because well,
Speaker 1: one I don't have all the answers, you know, I
Speaker 1: think that that is a fault. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people who want to present something to a community,
Speaker 1: like I think it's two way process, right, and it's
Speaker 1: very lonely. Especially I'm sure you can resonate with this
Speaker 1: as an entrepreneur. Um. It can be very lonely not
Speaker 1: having thought partners and not having community if you don't
Speaker 1: seek them out, and like, what better way than to
Speaker 1: be a sort of a partner, and especially if you
Speaker 1: have For me, I have a physical space to be
Speaker 1: able to meet my community and see where they're at
Speaker 1: and see what they want, and to be able to
Speaker 1: sort of give and take as we say, like we
Speaker 1: haven't an Arabic, we say give and take. And that
Speaker 1: has really served as well because it keeps Reams from
Speaker 1: being stagnant, keeps us always evolving, It keeps us always
Speaker 1: sort of self reflecting on what we're doing well and
Speaker 1: what we're not. And I'm always just really amazed to
Speaker 1: buy how brilliant people's ideas are, and also saddened when
Speaker 1: people are so knocked down that like we've lost our
Speaker 1: ability and imagine, so what would happen if we create
Speaker 1: spaces where people can kind of think outside the box.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think that's what I've done. It reams,
Speaker 1: you know, both internally and externally. So like, internally, I
Speaker 1: really try to build processes that are more collective, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean it's kind of ironic that the business is
Speaker 1: named after me, so much of the growth of it
Speaker 1: has been sort of a collective effort of my leaders,
Speaker 1: you know, So I think, yeah, it just keeps me
Speaker 1: honest too, keeps me on my game, That's right. I
Speaker 1: think that is the crucial Part two is about the
Speaker 1: accountability it provides for you as the as the business
Speaker 1: owner to write like totally, let's talk about food for
Speaker 1: a little bit. I would love to know what some
Speaker 1: of your earliest and most formative food memories are and
Speaker 1: then tell us about like your transition from organizing into
Speaker 1: food into food. Yeah, I've been reflecting a lot on this.
Speaker 1: I feel sort of robbed of like my food memories
Speaker 1: from my childhood a little bit. And it's not to
Speaker 1: say I didn't have any experiences with food, but we
Speaker 1: were very much like sort of, Uh, I was a
Speaker 1: latchkey kid. Both my parents were working, and my mom
Speaker 1: was going to school and working, so she didn't really
Speaker 1: sort of cook the traditional foods, and so my my
Speaker 1: life sort of toggled between macaroni and cheese, instant raman
Speaker 1: and then sort of family gatherings of like big you know,
Speaker 1: plates of herm us and all the different mesa spreads
Speaker 1: with bread. But it was never sort of the home
Speaker 1: cooked meal um that we had, I think when I
Speaker 1: think about sort of and I grew up in the
Speaker 1: oldest of three um, so it was me and my
Speaker 1: sisters and my parents. When my mom did have time
Speaker 1: to make food, you know, it was always sort of
Speaker 1: incorporating you know, our flavors sort of traditional Arab foods
Speaker 1: in American dishes, you know, so we would like have
Speaker 1: cooked a meatballs in spaghetti, um and like classic and
Speaker 1: the red sauce. Yeah. I mean that's kind of a
Speaker 1: classic immigrant and first generation story, right, It's like these
Speaker 1: iterations and adaptations I kind of yeah, and like um,
Speaker 1: the pally Kali, which is like our popular dish on
Speaker 1: the Realms menu is sort of emerged. It really isn't
Speaker 1: homage to My mother likesachan, which is like the traditional
Speaker 1: chicken dish that Palestinians enjoy. You know. It's traditionally made
Speaker 1: on this thin bread, but my mom used to sort
Speaker 1: of wrap it in tortillas for us and have these
Speaker 1: little chicken burritos. And that's always how I grew up
Speaker 1: eating it. Never grew up eating, you know, chicken like
Speaker 1: open faced on pieces of bread. And I'm like that
Speaker 1: it's just genius and it's just you know, for me,
Speaker 1: I think I approached my food the way that my
Speaker 1: mom approached food about you know what, what's familiar to people,
Speaker 1: and what resonates and what's convenient, you know what, um
Speaker 1: not taking food too seriously and so yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it wasn't until sort of my adult life, you know.
Speaker 1: And and and we have the like uh we we
Speaker 1: grew up. Our home away from home was southern California,
Speaker 1: where my grandmother was the matriarch of the family and
Speaker 1: she was the master cook. But she was very very secretive,
Speaker 1: not secretive. She was just like, I don't need no help,
Speaker 1: I don't need any helpers. I will cook for an
Speaker 1: army and everybody out of the kitchen, you know, and
Speaker 1: so I have these memories and sort of peeking in
Speaker 1: on her and like, you know, just like she was
Speaker 1: the most amazing cook, and she was just like make
Speaker 1: these elaborate spreads, and you know, for us, like the
Speaker 1: biggest meal of the day was in the afternoon and
Speaker 1: we would you know, go swimming, and it's she was
Speaker 1: like sort of the central nexus of the family. We
Speaker 1: were all over the place, everywhere, from Greece to different
Speaker 1: parts of the States to back home in Lebanon, and
Speaker 1: you know, California would be the place that we'd all meet,
Speaker 1: you know. And then when her health deteriorated, a lot
Speaker 1: of those food memories disappeared because she would no longer
Speaker 1: cook for us. So it's you know, I'm still sort
Speaker 1: of delving through all of that and trying to understand.
Speaker 1: But for the most part, I feel like I really
Speaker 1: had to kind of search deep for the food that
Speaker 1: was politicized from a very young age, Like politics have
Speaker 1: always been sort of a part um of my experience
Speaker 1: and just being Palestinian, like my you know, we grew
Speaker 1: up in New England and we would like take trips
Speaker 1: to Plymouth Rock, you know, and learn about the Pilgrims.
Speaker 1: And at the same time, like my uncle who's living
Speaker 1: with us, would be like visiting the jails and like
Speaker 1: showing solidarity with Native Americans because Palestinians and Native Americans
Speaker 1: are upgraded from the land. Like so, I understood those contradictions,
Speaker 1: or at least witnessed them from a very young age.
Speaker 1: You know. I went to Gaza at the age of twelve,
Speaker 1: and like, you know, two years after sort of went
Speaker 1: to the Deep South, like organized a trip to the
Speaker 1: Deep South with my history teacher because I wanted to
Speaker 1: learn about the real history of civil rights. I was
Speaker 1: able to mimic those connections to Gaza. So it was
Speaker 1: like all this cumulative stuff. But it led to like
Speaker 1: a deep depression um in two thousand one, and unfortunately
Speaker 1: I manifested in like not being able to eat. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of our communities food and the way
Speaker 1: that we deal with our mental health food is very
Speaker 1: intersectional with that. And you know, I dropped over thirty
Speaker 1: pounds within two months. I was you know, in the hospital.
Speaker 1: I was sick. I didn't know what was wrong with me.
Speaker 1: Every time I wanted to eat. I couldn't keep it down.
Speaker 1: So I had to leave that context of this like
Speaker 1: sort of super neoliberal, you know, private college setting, and
Speaker 1: you know, I found California. I rediscovered I was like,
Speaker 1: let me get as far away from Boston as I can.
Speaker 1: And it was in sort of my move to California
Speaker 1: where you know, obviously it wasn't an overnight healing, but um,
Speaker 1: it was in sort of finding activism and food at
Speaker 1: the same time that my healing started to happen, and
Speaker 1: slowly but surely I was starting to learn recipes that
Speaker 1: I could eat. I remember my memory of the first
Speaker 1: farmers market I had ever been to, which is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like my eyes just started to open to this world,
Speaker 1: and I think, yeah, I started to like pick up
Speaker 1: cookbooks and learn how to cook this that I had
Speaker 1: grown grown up on and taken for granted as an adult. Wow.
Speaker 1: I love that your journey is such a good representation
Speaker 1: of who you are in that it's all encompassing, like
Speaker 1: with the politics and the hell it's an unusual journey,
Speaker 1: but I think it just speaks to why what you've
Speaker 1: created is so unusual as well. And I think about
Speaker 1: this when I share the story with other people. There
Speaker 1: are similar stories, like people don't talk about sort of
Speaker 1: their relationship to food and how it's evolved, you know,
Speaker 1: through its intersection with trauma, it's intersection. There's just so
Speaker 1: many things like we talked about, you know, physical health
Speaker 1: and mental health are very interconnected, and especially for communities
Speaker 1: who have been displaced or you know, have experienced trauma
Speaker 1: in different ways, like it's very connected to food. I
Speaker 1: want to ask you about Palestinian food in particular, or
Speaker 1: really I guess this is this will also lead us
Speaker 1: into the realm of language. Palestinian food is oftentimes absorbed
Speaker 1: under these broader names like Middle Eastern or even Mediterranean
Speaker 1: or Israeli. So as a Palestinian chef who also has
Speaker 1: chosen to use Arab with purpose and intention, I was
Speaker 1: hoping you could just kind of help us better understand
Speaker 1: some things that are Palestinian. And you know what, do
Speaker 1: you feel the role of these labels are in perpetuating
Speaker 1: ideas about Palestinian food? Yeah, first off, context is everything
Speaker 1: I choose to sort of so, so obviously the Arab
Speaker 1: world and especially the levant, you know, which is all
Speaker 1: part of Greater Syria. There was a lot of evolving
Speaker 1: and moving of foods, and you know, the foods that
Speaker 1: I grew up with. I mean, I'm Palestinian Syria, and
Speaker 1: I grew up more with you know, my my mom's
Speaker 1: and my mom's family's influence of the food than sort
Speaker 1: of my Syrian side. And there's there's obviously distinctions, Like
Speaker 1: I remember going to Syria as an adult and being like, oh,
Speaker 1: I never grew up with this thing, right, So, and
Speaker 1: that that is sort of a I think part and
Speaker 1: parcel to colonization and sort of the drawing up in
Speaker 1: lines and communities get more distinct as they're separated, right. Um.
Speaker 1: But for the most part, you know, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of similarities of the food. So I kind of sort
Speaker 1: of deviate away from the jockeying for ownership of food. Um. However,
Speaker 1: I choose to talk about my food in different ways
Speaker 1: depending on the political context. And right now, for Palestinians,
Speaker 1: we're living in the political context of a people that
Speaker 1: have you know, for almost a century now, really since
Speaker 1: the early nine hundreds, from the sort of British colonial
Speaker 1: forces and then sort of the Zionist takeover of Palestine,
Speaker 1: have basically exhibited genocide displacement, you know, a slow dying
Speaker 1: death where you know, life for Palestinian and who are
Speaker 1: living under those those conditions, there's there's a basically a
Speaker 1: sint in line between life and death, you know. And
Speaker 1: as an international community, calling these foods Israeli or calling
Speaker 1: these foods, you know, just a complete sort of omission
Speaker 1: of a Palestinian identity further works to normalize that reality
Speaker 1: for us. And so the act of asserting you know
Speaker 1: that these foods are Palestinian and they have been indigenous
Speaker 1: to that land way before the takeover of the hell
Speaker 1: and is a political act, right, It's a political act
Speaker 1: to say that we're going to resist. You know that
Speaker 1: our existence as resistance and I don't know, speaking for
Speaker 1: myself and the diaspora, adds to my resilience, you know,
Speaker 1: because identity and and and feeling a sense of identity
Speaker 1: is so intertwined with like our motivation to live and
Speaker 1: and be you know, so when you lose that, it
Speaker 1: makes it really hard to to be motivated to sort
Speaker 1: of be in this world and and find humanity with others,
Speaker 1: right when you have a loss of identity, and so
Speaker 1: in the context of occupation and apartheid, and not even
Speaker 1: having our basic human rights, especially in occupied Palestine, the
Speaker 1: food becomes a way to sort of assert that, you know,
Speaker 1: where the one of the biggest refugee populations. Some of
Speaker 1: us have lost our language, um lost our traditions, and
Speaker 1: so food becomes a way of to keep those alive.
Speaker 1: I remember, like, at a very young age, like why
Speaker 1: why do we talk about Palestine all the time. Like
Speaker 1: I remember like asking my uncle that, and he was like,
Speaker 1: you know, we may not see the liberation of our
Speaker 1: land in you know, in our lifetime, but we need
Speaker 1: to keep this going because I need my children to
Speaker 1: know that we're Palestina. I need my grandchildren to know
Speaker 1: that their Palestinian, you know, and so on and so forth,
Speaker 1: and so, you know, food becomes a way to keep
Speaker 1: those alive. I I think about this a lot because,
Speaker 1: you know, living in California and learning some of these
Speaker 1: recipes and talking to my family or to my mom
Speaker 1: about you know, and a lot of my mom's side
Speaker 1: of the family is from Gaza and and still live there.
Speaker 1: They can't cook these foods. Musachan, which is the main
Speaker 1: ingredient of musa, and the chicken and onion dish is
Speaker 1: olive oil. It's a dish that like, you know, really
Speaker 1: celebrates the olive harvest, which is like so integral to
Speaker 1: Palestinian cuisine. And because of the blockade and Gaza, people
Speaker 1: cannot afford olive oil. They can't afford the thing that
Speaker 1: is very indigenous to their land in the West Bank,
Speaker 1: where the olives basically like make up a huge part
Speaker 1: of like rural living. On a daily basis. They're dealing
Speaker 1: with the Israeli government and the occupying for is you know,
Speaker 1: raising their lands and uprooting their olive trees, things that
Speaker 1: take forty years to grow and mature. So you know,
Speaker 1: I feel very privileged to be able to keep that
Speaker 1: dish alive and its truest form when my family cannot
Speaker 1: make that dish to its truest potential because of the
Speaker 1: conditions there. Fish and seafood is another thing, I mean Gaza.
Speaker 1: In Gaza, you know that on the coast, a lot
Speaker 1: of their cuisine was based on seafood, but no longer
Speaker 1: can write because the Israeli government controls the waters, and
Speaker 1: fishermen can no longer fish and subsist off of the
Speaker 1: very thing that there they were subsisting off for many generations.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's very political, and so I
Speaker 1: choose to tell those stories. I think it's more important
Speaker 1: to tell the stories. And like with the Israeli food craze,
Speaker 1: there's a very intentional sort of way in which Palestinian
Speaker 1: identity is a met it. You know, they talk about
Speaker 1: all the influences of Arab Jewish populations that immigrated there.
Speaker 1: They have no problem talking about that, but there's like
Speaker 1: this very stark omission of Palestinian, even the word Palestinian
Speaker 1: and the cuisine because the very sort of speaking of
Speaker 1: Palestinian is a threat, right, So yeah, we have to
Speaker 1: talk about that. I think that that is really important.
Speaker 1: That context not necessarily about who owns what, but what
Speaker 1: is the story behind it that we're trying to either
Speaker 1: mask or normalize er m hmm, Because, for instance, there
Speaker 1: is no Palestinian coalition who will be funding the world
Speaker 1: to come visit and eat their right exactly. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: don't have those resources. So can you can you talk
Speaker 1: about this because I know this is another really hotly
Speaker 1: contested issue that you were a part of. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I think, I mean the US, I mean, the
Speaker 1: I was just interchangeably used the Israeli government in the
Speaker 1: US government, because they go hand in hand. Like if
Speaker 1: anybody thinks that the US is under the lure of Israel,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a very symbiotic relationship. I mean, they
Speaker 1: need each other right to sort of maintain control over
Speaker 1: that region. But in the more recent years, and this
Speaker 1: is I think this is just something for us in
Speaker 1: the food world to really understand. Is that food maybe
Speaker 1: one of the last frontiers of organizing. You know, Um,
Speaker 1: it's really a way to galvanize the hearts and minds
Speaker 1: of people. If you think about food, it's the it's
Speaker 1: the thing that intersects with everybody's lives. And so it
Speaker 1: doesn't surprise me that, you know. So the Israeli government
Speaker 1: has put millions and millions of dollars into what they
Speaker 1: call their gastrol diplomacy programs, and it's a way to
Speaker 1: sort of combat the de normalization of Israeli apartheid, so
Speaker 1: that there's a big movement globally over the last ten
Speaker 1: years that have called for boycott, divestment, and sanctions. And
Speaker 1: it's a way to sort of economically and politically sort
Speaker 1: of isolate Israel until sort of the government makes mixed
Speaker 1: changes right end apartheid, and it's modeled off of South
Speaker 1: Africa in the eighties and which was a very successful
Speaker 1: movement of people pushing on the US government and all
Speaker 1: entities that were investing in the apartheid movement and eventually
Speaker 1: apartheid fell. Um. So one of those avenues around it
Speaker 1: is sort of the cultural boycott, right, and so people
Speaker 1: are starting I mean, you know, with the advent of
Speaker 1: internet and and all the things, people are not oblivious
Speaker 1: to what's happening to the Palestinian people. So as a
Speaker 1: way to sort of counteract that and sort of strike
Speaker 1: their image, you know that we're like this haven and
Speaker 1: you know, there's a certain whitewashing. We even say a pinkwashing.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of you know, all the different greenwashing,
Speaker 1: just like let me let's just like present Israel and
Speaker 1: the best light to people so they can see it's
Speaker 1: not all that bad. Right. And so they've like basically
Speaker 1: done these sort of tours, these culinary tours for people
Speaker 1: to come and it's like, you know, celebrating farm to
Speaker 1: table cuisine. And how ironic that they're doing farm to table.
Speaker 1: We're right next door. They're like raising farmlands on a
Speaker 1: daily basis and kicking people out of their homes, you know,
Speaker 1: and basically illegally putting settlements right in the middle of
Speaker 1: people's villages. So, you know, we wanted to point the
Speaker 1: hypocrisy of that, in the irony of that, and you know,
Speaker 1: really pushed on people in the culinary word, especially because
Speaker 1: they look for influencers. You know, this is not the
Speaker 1: first time I think they The other arena they've done
Speaker 1: a really good job is in the sports arena, in
Speaker 1: which you know, people like Michael Bennett from and this
Speaker 1: is gonna really reveal my lack of knowledge and yes
Speaker 1: who you know read up on it was like, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to be used as a tool to normalize this,
Speaker 1: you know, but they find culinary influence. There is you know,
Speaker 1: really sort of known chefs who have a following to
Speaker 1: go there and to sort of normalize, and we pushed
Speaker 1: back against that. I think the late the biggest victory
Speaker 1: we had. We we we held sort of a series
Speaker 1: of pop ups that really was like, Okay, if you
Speaker 1: guys are going to have these events, we're going to
Speaker 1: have our own, um what they were calling round tables.
Speaker 1: We called it the asymmetrical table. Because the playing field
Speaker 1: is not really leveled. And we held a series of
Speaker 1: those in New York and they were like, it's amazing.
Speaker 1: People really want to understand and learn about, you know,
Speaker 1: what are the dynamics there. But the following year, we
Speaker 1: pushed on Real Hamilton's and a few other chefs in
Speaker 1: the US to pull out of their round tables, and
Speaker 1: we were able to get them to do it. So
Speaker 1: I think things are changing. People don't want to be
Speaker 1: associated with apartheid, and you know, I feel like the
Speaker 1: tides are shifting a little bit. I mean you see
Speaker 1: this in the politicals three or like even the Democratic
Speaker 1: Party doesn't want to go to the APAC conference right
Speaker 1: because they don't want to be seen as So you know,
Speaker 1: I just I feel like I'm part of that movement
Speaker 1: sort of in my culinary setting to have these hard
Speaker 1: conversations and you know, to engage people both on a
Speaker 1: public and a private level of what do we do
Speaker 1: to really use food as a tool to talk about
Speaker 1: these stories and to reconcile and to also ensure justice.
Speaker 1: You know, like people are like, oh, can your food
Speaker 1: bring peace between you know, like that sort of can
Speaker 1: your food big priests between the Arabs and Jews, and
Speaker 1: like there's not a problem between Arabs and Jews, right,
Speaker 1: Like that's not the actual issue at hand. And my
Speaker 1: food isn't going to be the thing that brings peace.
Speaker 1: It's justice that's going to bring peace. But if my
Speaker 1: food can be a way to start conversations, then that's great,
Speaker 1: you know, but I don't. I think it's going to
Speaker 1: take the work of a lot of people who believe
Speaker 1: in justice. I believe in social justice to really think
Speaker 1: about how do we turn the system up on his head?
Speaker 1: And and and and the biggest thing is, you know,
Speaker 1: supporting Palestinians in their call for liberation, their right to return,
Speaker 1: their right to have a seat at the table and
Speaker 1: have the same human rights as everyone else. And you
Speaker 1: can't really do that in an exclusionary form, right, Like
Speaker 1: one people can't be promised something over another people. So
Speaker 1: until we sort of get to that, and so, you know,
Speaker 1: we continue to assert our identity, we can we continue
Speaker 1: to try to live is and it's in those simple
Speaker 1: acts of cooking and keeping our food alive, whether it's
Speaker 1: here or there, that we do that. And I just
Speaker 1: feel excited to be a part of that movement. I'm connection.
Speaker 1: I'm We're working on a delegation in the fall. Harvest
Speaker 1: of folks are interested in that between food sovereignty activists
Speaker 1: here in the US and Puerto Rico and food sovereignty
Speaker 1: activists in Palestine. And I'm really excited about that because
Speaker 1: I think a lot of these delegations that go to
Speaker 1: the region, it's like it feels a little extractive, and
Speaker 1: this delegation is more like an exchange, you know, what
Speaker 1: can we learn from each other, Like the work that
Speaker 1: Palestinians are doing on the ground. I mean, from the
Speaker 1: small little pop ups to you know, the more sort
Speaker 1: of organizing efforts to get healthy foods in the schools.
Speaker 1: It's really amazing, like what people are doing with so
Speaker 1: little resources. And I think that there's a lot to
Speaker 1: learn sort of across UM events. Definitely. Well, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're having a series of events. We we just had
Speaker 1: an event with Bryant Terry here at the moad UM
Speaker 1: where we talked about sort of the intersections of black
Speaker 1: liberation struggle around food sovereignty. We want to do an
Speaker 1: event with indigenous communities here in San Francisco. We're looking
Speaker 1: to do pop ups in Detroit for the outline media conference.
Speaker 1: So yeah, just really using this as a way to
Speaker 1: sort of engage people about the intersections too, because it's
Speaker 1: not all that different what's happening on the ground over
Speaker 1: there and what's happening here and in the US. I
Speaker 1: want to ask you a question about the sanctions, because
Speaker 1: the people who got really piste off about that basically said, well,
Speaker 1: why are you isolating Israel? Why are you singling out
Speaker 1: Israel when so many countries, including our own, as you
Speaker 1: pointed out, commit horrible atrocities and we don't see the
Speaker 1: same kind of organizing. So it's not that we have
Speaker 1: anything against Palestine, but we really don't get why you're
Speaker 1: singling us out. So what is your response to that?
Speaker 1: I just think that's a pivot. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: the biggest response to that is that the US is
Speaker 1: an accomplice and in this system and what it's able
Speaker 1: to do, so we have the power to do something
Speaker 1: about that. You know, there's like billions of dollars that
Speaker 1: go to one of the strongest militaries in the world.
Speaker 1: You know, if they didn't have all of that tax
Speaker 1: money that we pay as consumers, they wouldn't be able
Speaker 1: to do what they do. So that's kind of how
Speaker 1: I talk about that, Um that we have the power
Speaker 1: as Americans, who you know, our government as an accomplice
Speaker 1: to all of this. I would say the same thing
Speaker 1: about our USA two dollars, two suny dollars, who are
Speaker 1: creating a lot of if you if you follow the money,
Speaker 1: the US isn't cprently sort of the the single culprit
Speaker 1: and all of this right, and so as Americans, we
Speaker 1: have the power and how we allocate our tax dollars
Speaker 1: and all of this to really affect change on sort
Speaker 1: of a massive level. But yeah, I mean without getting
Speaker 1: into the geopolitics, that's the simplest way, but I could
Speaker 1: connect all of these uh really horrible governments and and
Speaker 1: how it's all actually connected to that. So that's another podcast,
Speaker 1: that's a that's another that's another conversation. But yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a bliss form obviously we're accomplices and sort of the
Speaker 1: taxpayer dollars that we pay to this government and this
Speaker 1: military and being able to do what it's doing. Ring
Speaker 1: you are the best. I love talking to you. I
Speaker 1: really appreciate everything you're doing. Such a great time chatting
Speaker 1: with you today. Yeah, thank you so much. Thanks for me.
Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed that talk with rem M. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for sharing your time and wisdom with us.
Speaker 1: If you all were moved by this discussion as I was,
Speaker 1: and you would like to support Realm in her work,
Speaker 1: you can donate to her go fund me entitled Reams
Speaker 1: Fruit Veil Worker Relief Fund, which you can find linked
Speaker 1: in the show notes for this episode, which is on
Speaker 1: our website wet Stone Magazine dot com Backslash point of Origin.
Speaker 1: Thanks again, Reim, and we will be back next week
Speaker 1: with more from Point of Origin. Special thanks to my
Speaker 1: business partner who makes all things possible at Whetstone, are
Speaker 1: co founder Melissa she Thanks mel. Thank you to Selene Glazier,
Speaker 1: who is our lead producer. To Cat Hong our editor,
Speaker 1: to Havin Obasa Lassa and Quentin lebou our production interns.
Speaker 1: To our friends at iHeart Radio for helping us bring
Speaker 1: you this podcast. To Gabrielle Collins are supervising producer, engineer J. J. Pauseway,
Speaker 1: and executive producer Christopher Hasiotis. I'm your host the origin
Speaker 1: Forager Steven Saderfield, and we will be back here next
Speaker 1: week with more from Whetstone Magazine's Point of Origin podcast,