WEBVTT - 6. Murder and Meh 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:10.080 On November while incarcerated for murder in Arizona, Jerry Paisley 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:12.800 sat down with three investigators and made a series of 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:17.000 startling claims. In a minute, we'll review them, but first 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:20.000 let's go over what we know to be true. The facts. 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:26.920 Fact Congressman Nick Begett vanished on October sixteenth, nineteen seventy two. Fact, 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:31.280 Peggy Beggett, Nick's widow, married Jerry Paisley seventeen months later. 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:36.920 Fact Paisley had documented ties to to mob families, the Bananas, 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:41.200 and the look of Olie's. Fact Paisley committed at least 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:46.479 five murders and three bombings. Fact. Paisley and Peggy started 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:52.080 a business, Max Inc. Shortly after they married in nineteen Fact, 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.800 Paisley and Peggy's partner, the company's vice president, was a 0:00:55.800 --> 0:01:00.600 man named Danny Zivinage. Fact, Peggy received a windfall of 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:05.560 cash after Nick, her first husband, disappeared. These things we 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:11.119 can prove now. Claims, and again these are Jerry Paisley's claims, 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:15.399 not mine. Claim Peggy Beggett met with mob boss Joe 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:18.720 Banano in the summer of nineteen seventy two, right before 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:24.280 Nick Baggetts vanished. Claim Joey Tarrola, a Banana lieutenant nicknamed 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.759 Joey the I, asked Paisley to carry a locked suit 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:33.200 case to Alaska sometime around September nineteen seventy two. Claim 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.080 Paisley flew the suit case to Anchorage, where he met 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:40.240 up with three men, Danny Zevanich, Jean Fowler, and Larry Fowler. 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:44.560 Claim Zevenitch later told Paisley that the suit case contained 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:53.280 a bomb and that the congressmen were assassinated. From my 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.160 Heart Media, this is Missing in Alaska. The story of 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.280 two congressmen who vanished in nineteen seventy two and my 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.120 quest to figure out what happened to them. I'm your host, 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:16.440 John Waalzac. On January, Paisley reiterated his claims during a 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:20.480 follow up interview. He kept naming the same names, including 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:25.120 Larry Fowler. Only twenty seven days later, Fowler was shot 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.320 to death on a remote road in Alaska. And that's 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:34.240 a fact. Are you aware that twenty seven days after 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:38.000 Paisley spoke with an agent in prison, that Larry Fowler 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:42.160 was murdered? Did you know it was that shortly after 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:47.720 Paisley spoke with an agent. Yes, that's Dave Tullis of 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:52.840 the Alaska State Troopers, one of three investigators who interviewed Paisley, 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:56.560 that whole homicide was a little bit strange also, But 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.560 Larry Fowler was had a reputation, was not the nicest 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.400 guy you'd ever want to meet here in Alaska. And 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:12.280 Larry Fowler's homicide was odd. Yes. Why he was apparently 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:15.280 drinking late at a club. He was the owner of 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.760 a pawn shop. Uh. He called for a taxi. I 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.440 don't know where his vehicle might have been at the time, uh, 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:24.480 and instructed taxi driver where to go, and he ended 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:27.880 up on the upper part of the hillside got really 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:31.560 he had fallen asleep, woke up, was really disturbed. As 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.440 I recall it, he pulled out a handgun and threatened 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:38.120 the text cab driver. According to the surviving member of 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:40.840 this which was a text cab driver, task cab driver 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:43.000 just happened to have a weapon in his vehicle. He 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.960 pulled it out and immediately shot Larry Feller. The cab 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.400 driver said he acted in self defense. This task cab 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:52.720 driver did not have a history of crime. He was 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:57.400 a immigrant to the United States and to Alaska. He 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:02.200 was I believe polish um. But I didn't find anything 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.520 completely bizarre about his story, except for the fact that 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:09.680 he just shot somebody, with the provocation being that he 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:13.320 thought his life was being threatened and he was employing 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.720 self defense. But it was just a strange homicide time. 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:20.600 We had other homicides that followed. They were a little 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:25.360 bit strange, also involving some Russian immigrants, but this one 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:33.279 was particularly strange because Larry Feller was the victim. The 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.040 night Fowler died, he had been drinking at an Anchorage 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.880 bar called the Time Out Lounge. That's where the cabby 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.120 picked him up. The cabby claimed that Fowler directed him 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:45.760 into the hills outside Anchorage. He claimed that Fowler at 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:49.279 some point, for some reason, pulled the gun, pointed it 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.440 at him, and said, you will be dead, motherfucker, you 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:56.080 will be dead. He said, he shot Fowler and self defense. 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.680 He was afraid, in part because other local cabbies had 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.720 been murd heard recently during botched robberies. Fowler's family found 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.640 the story suspicious. Why was Fowler in some random, remote 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:11.200 area outside Anchorage. Why would he pull a gun on 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:15.520 the driver. Fowler was wealthy, He certainly wasn't trying to 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.520 rob the driver. The night he died, Fowler was dripping 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:23.360 in golden diamonds and he had cash on him on 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.000 the flip side. The cops didn't believe that the driver 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.520 was trying to rob Fowler either. They said the physical 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.800 evidence backed up the driver's story and he took and 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:38.440 passed a polygraph or Lie detector test. So on the surface, 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.559 it seems that the timing of Fowler's death so soon 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:44.120 after Paisley named him as someone with knowledge of the 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:49.159 missing congressman's alleged assassination was a pure coincidence. While digging 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:51.680 into Fowler's death, I managed to track down one of 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:54.680 his friends, Bob Wheel, who had breakfast with him the 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:58.200 day he died. That day, Wheel was raising money for 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:00.880 his rotary club. He wanted it Fouler to chip in. 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:06.279 The fundraiser was, shall we say creative. My rotary club 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.880 does an event every year called Moose Marble Madness, and 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.080 believe it or not, we take two thousand genuine moose nuggets. 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:14.440 I don't know if you've ever seen what a moose 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.200 turd looks like, but they're about this bigger round. They're 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.640 kind of oval shaped and because of their diet being 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.680 these birch trees and willow trees and all that kind 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:24.840 of thing. When they take a dump, I mean, it's 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:28.880 a solid, oval shaped nugget that's very hard. So we 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.960 came up with the brilliant idea myself and my dentist 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.000 and another dentist that was in my rotary club thirty 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.359 one years ago, and decided to call it Moose Marble Madness. 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:41.520 We numbered one through two thousand of these moose turds, 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.080 and then we had tickets made and we would sell 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.080 the turds for ten bucks apiece, and we'd go up 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:49.760 in a helicopter and they would drop the moose nuggets 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:54.159 out of a helicopter. Anyway, that morning, the day he died, 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.480 Larry Fowler gave his buddy Bob Wheel a hundred bucks 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.800 for ten tickets. The next day, when we learned of 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:05.560 Fowler's death, he was stunned. He was also confused. Like 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:08.440 Fowler's family, he wondered what his friend had been doing 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:13.120 on some random, unfamiliar road. Why was he there? A 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.680 short time later, we'll hurt an explanation. The only thing 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.360 I know is that apparently somebody, somebody sent a woman 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:24.559 in there from what I have heard, and the woman 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.160 slipped Larry a piece of paper with her phone number 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:29.960 on it and her address and said something in the 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.160 effect why don't you come see me or visit me 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:35.440 or something. So when Larry left the bar at one 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:38.200 or two am, that was the reason for the taxi 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:41.200 cab driver being on Rabbit Upper on Upper Rabbit Creek 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.520 Road was apparently going to this woman's address that was 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:46.600 on the piece of paper that Larry had that this 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:50.080 woman had slipped him the night before. Fowler was married 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.600 at the time, so if he was meeting up with 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.320 another woman that night, it could explain why he was 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:57.800 in an unfamiliar place and why it would be kept 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:01.320 hush hush. Well, wasn't the only person who told me this. 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.000 A second source said he heard the same thing. That 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.040 source speculated that it was a setup, that Fowler was 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.480 lured out of the bar and killed for some unknown reason. 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:15.800 So who was this mystery woman? Did she know Fowler previously? 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.160 Probably not, since she had to give him her phone number. 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:22.760 Adding to the intrigue, multiple sources told me that at 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:26.280 the time of his death, Fowler was funneling illegal contributions 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:30.960 to political campaigns and cash directly to multiple politicians. I've 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.720 heard names of people allegedly involved in the scheme, but 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:39.040 without further proof, I can't disclose them for now. Ultimately, 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:43.640 investigators believe the cab driver and in U the Anchorage 0:08:43.720 --> 0:09:11.880 d A declined to prosecute him. So Larry Fowler, one 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:15.120 of five men Jerry Paisley said was involved with or 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.440 knew of, the alleged bombing of the missing congressman's plane, 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:22.480 was killed before investigators could question him. But what about 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:26.320 the other four men Paisley named Joe Banano, Joeya Tarrola, 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:30.720 Danny Zivinich, and Jeane Fowler. Banano died in two thousand two. 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:34.640 Iya tar Rolla died in I tried to interview Aya 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.440 tar Rolla before he died, but when I reached him 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:40.920 by phone in late he declined to comment and he 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.679 hung up on me. Zivinich declined multiple requests for an 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:49.360 on the record interview, and Jean Fowler, well, wait, we'll 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:54.040 get to him, Okay. So after Jerry Paisley made such 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:59.480 startling claims, what exactly happened? What kind of investigation took place? 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:04.320 Here's Dave Tullis, the Alaska State trooper. To my surprise, 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:08.920 when I got back with the tapes. Uh, we did 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:12.640 a transcript which I looked over and stored the tapes 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.760 in evidence, and after I decided this was pretty big 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:21.320 news and something that needs to be shared with bosses plural, 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:25.400 I went to my sergeant and my lieutenant and gave 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:29.520 them my transcript and a copy of my notes, and 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:32.559 they looked at it for not a long period of 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:34.560 time and said, we need to pass this off to 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:39.920 the FBI. And they notified the FBI and gave them 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:44.600 the transcript. And part of my recollection is that they 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.800 gave them the tapes. Now, whether those were duplicate tapes 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:56.040 the original tapes, I'm not sure. On December, the FBI's 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.640 Anchorage office received a copy of the Paisley transcript. That 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.120 did the bureau to launch a preliminary investigation, led by 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:07.200 Special Agent Luianne Henderson. Multiple people described Henderson to me 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.760 as an outstanding, hard working agent, but for some reason, 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:16.160 her investigation into Paisley's claims was by all accounts, cursory, insufficient, 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:20.319 and weak. Mainly, it consisted of reviewing the transcript, looking 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:25.240 at court records, reviewing FBI files, and reading old newspaper clips. 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:29.920 To my knowledge, Henderson conducted only a single interview on September. 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.520 That day, Henderson and another agent spoke with Danny Zevenitch, 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:39.440 Paisley's former business partner, the man who Paisley claimed told 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.920 him that the missing congressman's plane was bombed. The FBI's 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.800 interview was Zvinich, lasted a total of forty five minutes. Then, 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:49.440 on that very same day, the office of the U 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:53.679 S Attorney in Alaska declined to prosecute the case, which, 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:57.880 funny enough, nobody seems to remember. Bob Bundy, the U 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.160 S Attorney at the time, told me doesn't remember the case. 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:04.600 Karen Leffler, the assistant U S attorney who handled it 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:08.640 directly told me she doesn't remember the case, Whiley Thompson, 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.000 at the time, the Special Agent in charge or s 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:13.760 A C. Of the FBI in Alaska, told me he 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.360 doesn't remember the case, and former special Agent Lewin Henderson 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.880 declined a request for an on the record interview in September. 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:26.080 The same month, the FBI closed its investigation into Paisley's claims. 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.640 It replaced s a C. Wiley Thompson with another agent, 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:34.040 Marshall Bratton. Bratton's name is on an FBI document acknowledging 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.839 that the U. S. Attorney's Office declined to prosecute the case. 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.560 Bratton told me he doesn't remember the case either. Kevin Friesley, 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:44.439 a supervisor in the FBI's Anchor's office at the time, 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.800 decline interview request. When I reached him by phone, he 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.720 hung up on me. Danny Zevinich also declined multiple requests 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:55.280 for an on the record interview. So basically nobody remembers 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:59.120 the case and or nobody wants to talk about it. 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.120 It's important to know that Zivinich's bar was at the 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:06.120 time a popular watering hole for FBI agents. Many of 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:08.719 the same agents who would have been tasked with investigating 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.280 him were friends with him and hung out at his bar. 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.600 I'm not insinuating that this was the case with Special 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.720 Agent Henderson, who to my knowledge was not friends with 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.800 Zivinach and did not frequent his bar unlike some of 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.200 her colleagues. But why did the FBI only conduct a 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:31.560 single interview the Zivinach interview. Theoretically the Bureau could have 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:35.559 interviewed Larry Fowler, I guess, but to be fair, Fowler 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:39.040 was killed only weeks after Paisley first named him, but 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.920 the FBI never interviewed any of the other people Paisley named. 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:47.040 Joe Banano was never interviewed, Gene Fowler was never interviewed, 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:51.480 Joey A. Tarola was never interviewed, and Peggy Baggatte wasn't interviewed. 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:56.720 The FBI only interviewed one person, Danny Zivinich, for forty 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:07.920 five minutes. The three Arizona and Alaska investigators who interviewed 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:12.800 Jerry Paisley before the FBI got involved have serious doubts 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:17.439 about how the bureau investigated, or more specifically, failed to investigate, 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:24.480 Paisley's claims. Do you think, given the severity and the 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:30.320 seriousness of Jerry Paisley's allegations, that it is sufficient enough 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:35.280 of an investigation to basically review archives and newspaper club 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.840 bangs and talked to one suspect for forty five minutes. 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:41.920 I would have to say no, I don't think that's 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.320 sufficient at all. And one of the things I was 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:51.000 cautious about is Arizona doesn't really allow recordings in a 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:55.440 penal institution, but the Elastia State troopers insisted, and I 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:59.680 insisted that we record the conversation. Had we not done that, 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.920 there would have been no record of really what happened 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:07.840 except our notes. The FBI doesn't record hardly anything. In 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.560 my experience. They used three O two's where they write 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:14.200 their notes, but they do not record. And I was 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:20.240 very pleased that the troopers insisted, and I insisted on 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.720 recording their conversations, and I was quite surprised that it 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.680 didn't go any farther than that. In the FBI apparently 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:30.400 didn't do an extensive investigation on the subject, and I 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:33.280 didn't really know how much they had or had not done, 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:37.520 but word filled back over a couple of years, and 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.520 I thought it was not well done at all. Dave 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:43.040 Tullus is a reliable swords if there ever was one. 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:45.600 He served for twenty years in the US Air Force 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:49.080 as both a fighter pilot and an aircraft accident investigator. 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.120 He served for six years as an Alaska State trooper 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.400 investigating major crimes, including homicides, and later he worked for 0:15:56.440 --> 0:16:00.280 the Anchorage International Airport Police and Fire Department. Then he retired. 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:04.480 Mike Grimes, one of the other two investigators, also had 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.880 decades of experience, first as a patrolman for the Anchorage 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:11.400 Police Department, then on the vice squad, and finally as 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.640 head of the department's homicide unit. Getting back to the FBI. 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.000 When you got back to Alaska, what follow up did 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:22.040 you see on what Paisley had told you about the 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:26.960 alleged bombing. When I got back, I do you know 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.120 him telling me this, I knew how big a deal 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:35.520 it was, um, you know, to us Congressman might have 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:40.160 been murdered while they were in Alaska. I called an 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:46.240 FBI agent that I worked with numerous cases homicides and 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:50.720 such as am and we met and I told her, 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.760 and then you know, she said, you know, I gotta 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.200 take this right to the s AC, you know. And 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:01.920 I at that time I waited till uh we were 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.480 thinking these murder these talents about if the body showed 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.480 up or whatever. They were probably trooper cases, you know 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:11.520 from where he's saying, they took them out somewhere. So 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.440 Dave tall Us took the cassette tapes and had them 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:20.280 all transcribed, and the transcription of multiple pages not that thick, 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.920 and and so I waited until I got the transcript back, 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:30.040 and uh so I ran off an extra copy and 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:35.960 met with the FBI agent blue Ann Henderson, and I 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.440 told her about it, and I said, here's the transcript, 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.960 and I said, this is way way out of my 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:47.080 league as far as uh my jurisdiction on such as that. 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:53.680 And she took it and I didn't hear anything from 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:57.080 her for three or four weeks, you know, nothing, and 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:00.960 uh you know, which really uce me because we had 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:05.920 worked so closely on some other cases. Uh. I mean, 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.720 we did a drug murder where we had to uh 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:14.080 again flight Arizona and worked with drug murder and brought 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.000 the guy back with us. Uh, and he took us 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.439 to where the body was up in Alaska. But so 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.360 we had a great relationship and I really a lot 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:27.959 of respect for it. Anyway, she came back or didn't 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.960 come back with any information. I finally kept calling and 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:35.480 calling and uh you know, and she said, well, meet 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:39.040 me somewhere. So obviously she didn't want to meet in 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:42.400 her office or my office. So we went and met 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.200 and she said, I said, what's going on? I said, 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:48.120 I keep waiting for a phone call with somebody wanting 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.840 to interview me. And she goes, uh, this ain't being 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:54.879 handled out of here. This thing s a C. He 0:18:55.000 --> 0:19:02.480 called Washington, and Washington said, don't do anything. You don't 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:05.840 put anybody on this, do not open investigations, send everything 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:10.600 you got to us. I go, oh okay. Then uh So, 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.199 I said, well, I would imagine that there whoever they 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:16.480 send to look into this is going to be calling me. 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:21.760 That only makes sense. I know everybody. I did. That 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:25.000 took the statement from him, and uh And I worked 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.760 with the FBI over and over. I had just graduated 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:33.040 from the FBI National Academy the year before that Quantico. 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:38.480 I had been brought to Quantico to instruct on our 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:43.920 homicide response team set up. And I've been to Quantico 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:49.879 and FBI Academy JE probably seven eight nine times and 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:53.320 they're not gonna call me. I mean that. I was amazed. 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.240 I mean I was brought in the Alaska representative for 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:00.240 the founding of the International Homicide Investigator Association, and I 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:06.160 was the Alaska guy then. So I had been vetted 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.760 by the the FEDS over and over again, and these 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:13.480 guys are going to come out of Washington, d C. 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.560 And they're not gonna call it one guy that knows 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:20.880 all these people. That doesn't even make sense. The FBI's 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:25.399 investigation went nowhere. Like Grimes and Tullus, Tom Davis, the 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:29.600 third investigator, also had a long distinguished career in law enforcement. 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.880 He worked for decades for the Arizona Department of Public Safety, 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:36.840 focusing for a time un organized crime. Davis told me 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.200 that other than him Grimes and tell us, someone from 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:45.000 the FBI also interviewed Paisley directly. If that's true, and 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.040 I can't prove that it is, there's no official record 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:50.919 of the interview and no information on who conducted it. 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:56.920 The Bureau I know for a fact interviewed Jerry Um 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:01.160 only because they're answered to me was that we didn't 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:04.760 need your approval. And I said back when I said, 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:10.439 that's right, I said, did he cooperate? Wow, he's not believable. 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:17.320 It's okay to your knowledge. Was there any more in 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:21.879 depth investigation or follow up? No, But a lot of 0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:26.679 that basically has to do with the fact that the 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:39.680 conversation had to do with a person that um, get 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:46.639 in line, my friend. Uh, and you you want to 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:51.600 push your weight around, that's fine, but get in line. 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:57.560 In conclusion, then Tom Davis, Mike Grimes, and Dave Tollis, 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:02.400 three seasoned investigators, interview Jerry Paisley in Arizona in November. 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.600 Paisley told them that he transported a locked suitcase to 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:10.560 Alaska nineteen seventy two that Danny's Ivanache, with whom he 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:13.800 and Peggy Begett started a business, told him the suitcase 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:18.040 contained high tech explosives and that the missing congressman's plane 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:21.440 had been bombed. The FBI learned about this and conducted 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:26.399 a cursory feeble investigation, and the U. S. Attorney for Alaska, 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:29.760 the Assistant U. S Attorney, the Special Agent in charge 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:32.119 of the FBI in Alaska, and the S A C 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:36.320 who replaced him, none of them supposedly remember any of this. 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:39.320 I guess it's possible to forget that time in your 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:42.520 career when a murderer with mob ties who married the 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:46.320 widow of a missing congressman claimed the congressman was assassinated 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:49.439 and that a famous missing plane had been bombed. Is 0:22:49.480 --> 0:23:16.919 that something you would forget? So the FBI didn't do 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:19.960 much and the U. S. Attorney's office declined to prosecute 0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:23.960 the case. What about the media In the mid nineties 0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:27.920 and enterprising producer for Dateline NBC named Chris Shoal learned 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:32.440 about Paisley's allegations and launched his own investigation. Shoal, who's 0:23:32.440 --> 0:23:35.440 now an executive at NBC News, did a really good job. 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:38.919 I respect him. We had some of the same sources. 0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:41.600 One of these sources gave me copies of letters and 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:44.760 emails Shoal sent in the nineties and early two thousand's. 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:49.320 Typically I would never report the content of another reporter's correspondence. 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:53.440 But since so few people investigated Paisley's claims, so many 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:57.280 sources have died, and the information is valuable, I'm breaking 0:23:57.280 --> 0:23:59.879 that rule. And an email sent to a source on 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:04.919 September sev Seal wrote that he spoke quote to a 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:07.919 former reporter for the Anchorage Daily News. He won a 0:24:07.920 --> 0:24:10.320 Pulitzer for reporting on the mafia and Alaska in the 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:13.480 nineteen seventies, and he told me my theory was not 0:24:13.560 --> 0:24:17.480 only plausible, but that law enforcement sources of his speculated 0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:21.320 about a bomb even back then. Shul continued quote. The 0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:24.160 reporter told me one of his law enforcement sources took 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:27.720 several statements from witnesses that night who reported seeing someone 0:24:28.040 --> 0:24:31.680 lurking around the plane. I'm trying to locate the officer 0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:36.200 who told the reporter this and ultimately those witnesses. So 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:39.040 here we have a four time Emmy Award winning investigative 0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:42.439 producer saying that one of his sources, a Pulitzer winner, 0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:45.840 heard directly from a cop that witnesses saw someone lurking 0:24:45.840 --> 0:24:49.000 around the congressman's plane the night before it disappeared. I 0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:51.040 know that's a chain of so and so heard from 0:24:51.040 --> 0:24:53.960 so and so, but look at the provenance. A cop 0:24:54.080 --> 0:24:56.800 told a Pulitzer winner, who in turn told a respected 0:24:56.800 --> 0:25:00.119 producer for Dateline NBC. In a separate letter to a 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:03.800 different source, which I also obtained, Schol emphasized that he 0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:07.640 was in no way a conspiracy theorist. Quote. My profession 0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:12.520 requires skepticism, but I'm also a committed investigative journalist, and frankly, 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:15.679 it just seems like something stinks here. He goes on 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:19.200 to say that he was quote immensely skeptical of claims 0:25:19.240 --> 0:25:22.359 made by people like Paisley, who clearly enjoys talking about 0:25:22.359 --> 0:25:25.919 his past exploits. That alone may be enough motivation for 0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:28.679 him to lie, but beyond that, he seems to have 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:32.240 little reason to completely fabricate a story, and in fact, 0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:36.760 large chunks of what he's saying I've been able to document. Honestly, 0:25:37.080 --> 0:25:40.639 I dreaded asking Schul for an interview. This is just 0:25:40.720 --> 0:25:44.320 a weird situation for both of us because now not 0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:48.160 only is schulan executive at NBC News, but specifically he 0:25:48.160 --> 0:25:51.360 helps to oversee news standards, working on issues of fairness 0:25:51.400 --> 0:25:54.639 and accuracy. Typically, he would be one of the people 0:25:54.800 --> 0:25:58.160 helping to decide whether or not NBC reporters should participate 0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:00.679 in a project like this. So was surprised that he 0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:02.760 agreed to do an interview, and I was excited to 0:26:02.760 --> 0:26:06.359 speak with him. You had the rare opportunity to speak 0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:09.240 to Jerry Paisley. Did you interview him in President I 0:26:09.320 --> 0:26:12.320 met him? Um, yeah, not with a camera, but yes, 0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:17.600 he wasn't a jail um um it was whatever the 0:26:17.680 --> 0:26:20.320 name of the jail is there in Tucson, the PMA 0:26:20.359 --> 0:26:23.640 County Jail, right, that sounds right. And what was what 0:26:23.720 --> 0:26:29.120 was that experience like meeting him? Um? Weird? I mean 0:26:29.160 --> 0:26:32.639 I arrived and you know, you go through the normal 0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:39.760 security stuff with the jail, um, glass reinforced doors, all 0:26:39.800 --> 0:26:42.600 of that kind of thing, went past the security booth, 0:26:42.640 --> 0:26:46.880 checked in my my stuff, um and uh, and went 0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:50.760 into the room, and it was a small room. Uh. 0:26:51.160 --> 0:26:53.639 He was sitting across the table from me, kind of 0:26:53.640 --> 0:26:58.800 at an angle and uh, I he was not wearing handcuffs, 0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:03.600 um uh and just was sitting there and we kind 0:27:03.600 --> 0:27:07.320 of shook hands, um and I sat down. He sat down, 0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:11.040 and that's about when he told me he uh he 0:27:11.080 --> 0:27:13.879