1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: On November while incarcerated for murder in Arizona, Jerry Paisley 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: sat down with three investigators and made a series of 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: startling claims. In a minute, we'll review them, but first 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: let's go over what we know to be true. The facts. 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: Fact Congressman Nick Begett vanished on October sixteenth, nineteen seventy two. Fact, 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: Peggy Beggett, Nick's widow, married Jerry Paisley seventeen months later. 7 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: Fact Paisley had documented ties to to mob families, the Bananas, 8 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: and the look of Olie's. Fact Paisley committed at least 9 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: five murders and three bombings. Fact. Paisley and Peggy started 10 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: a business, Max Inc. Shortly after they married in nineteen Fact, 11 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: Paisley and Peggy's partner, the company's vice president, was a 12 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: man named Danny Zivinage. Fact, Peggy received a windfall of 13 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: cash after Nick, her first husband, disappeared. These things we 14 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 1: can prove now. Claims, and again these are Jerry Paisley's claims, 15 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: not mine. Claim Peggy Beggett met with mob boss Joe 16 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: Banano in the summer of nineteen seventy two, right before 17 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: Nick Baggetts vanished. Claim Joey Tarrola, a Banana lieutenant nicknamed 18 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: Joey the I, asked Paisley to carry a locked suit 19 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: case to Alaska sometime around September nineteen seventy two. Claim 20 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: Paisley flew the suit case to Anchorage, where he met 21 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: up with three men, Danny Zevanich, Jean Fowler, and Larry Fowler. 22 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: Claim Zevenitch later told Paisley that the suit case contained 23 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: a bomb and that the congressmen were assassinated. From my 24 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: Heart Media, this is Missing in Alaska. The story of 25 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: two congressmen who vanished in nineteen seventy two and my 26 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: quest to figure out what happened to them. I'm your host, 27 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: John Waalzac. On January, Paisley reiterated his claims during a 28 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: follow up interview. He kept naming the same names, including 29 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: Larry Fowler. Only twenty seven days later, Fowler was shot 30 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: to death on a remote road in Alaska. And that's 31 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: a fact. Are you aware that twenty seven days after 32 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: Paisley spoke with an agent in prison, that Larry Fowler 33 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: was murdered? Did you know it was that shortly after 34 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: Paisley spoke with an agent. Yes, that's Dave Tullis of 35 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: the Alaska State Troopers, one of three investigators who interviewed Paisley, 36 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: that whole homicide was a little bit strange also, But 37 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: Larry Fowler was had a reputation, was not the nicest 38 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: guy you'd ever want to meet here in Alaska. And 39 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: Larry Fowler's homicide was odd. Yes. Why he was apparently 40 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: drinking late at a club. He was the owner of 41 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: a pawn shop. Uh. He called for a taxi. I 42 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: don't know where his vehicle might have been at the time, uh, 43 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: and instructed taxi driver where to go, and he ended 44 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: up on the upper part of the hillside got really 45 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: he had fallen asleep, woke up, was really disturbed. As 46 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: I recall it, he pulled out a handgun and threatened 47 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: the text cab driver. According to the surviving member of 48 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: this which was a text cab driver, task cab driver 49 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: just happened to have a weapon in his vehicle. He 50 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: pulled it out and immediately shot Larry Feller. The cab 51 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: driver said he acted in self defense. This task cab 52 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: driver did not have a history of crime. He was 53 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: a immigrant to the United States and to Alaska. He 54 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: was I believe polish um. But I didn't find anything 55 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: completely bizarre about his story, except for the fact that 56 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: he just shot somebody, with the provocation being that he 57 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: thought his life was being threatened and he was employing 58 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: self defense. But it was just a strange homicide time. 59 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: We had other homicides that followed. They were a little 60 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: bit strange, also involving some Russian immigrants, but this one 61 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: was particularly strange because Larry Feller was the victim. The 62 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: night Fowler died, he had been drinking at an Anchorage 63 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: bar called the Time Out Lounge. That's where the cabby 64 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: picked him up. The cabby claimed that Fowler directed him 65 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: into the hills outside Anchorage. He claimed that Fowler at 66 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: some point, for some reason, pulled the gun, pointed it 67 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: at him, and said, you will be dead, motherfucker, you 68 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: will be dead. He said, he shot Fowler and self defense. 69 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: He was afraid, in part because other local cabbies had 70 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: been murd heard recently during botched robberies. Fowler's family found 71 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: the story suspicious. Why was Fowler in some random, remote 72 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: area outside Anchorage. Why would he pull a gun on 73 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: the driver. Fowler was wealthy, He certainly wasn't trying to 74 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: rob the driver. The night he died, Fowler was dripping 75 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: in golden diamonds and he had cash on him on 76 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: the flip side. The cops didn't believe that the driver 77 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: was trying to rob Fowler either. They said the physical 78 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: evidence backed up the driver's story and he took and 79 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: passed a polygraph or Lie detector test. So on the surface, 80 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,559 Speaker 1: it seems that the timing of Fowler's death so soon 81 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: after Paisley named him as someone with knowledge of the 82 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: missing congressman's alleged assassination was a pure coincidence. While digging 83 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: into Fowler's death, I managed to track down one of 84 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: his friends, Bob Wheel, who had breakfast with him the 85 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: day he died. That day, Wheel was raising money for 86 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: his rotary club. He wanted it Fouler to chip in. 87 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: The fundraiser was, shall we say creative. My rotary club 88 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: does an event every year called Moose Marble Madness, and 89 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: believe it or not, we take two thousand genuine moose nuggets. 90 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever seen what a moose 91 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: turd looks like, but they're about this bigger round. They're 92 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: kind of oval shaped and because of their diet being 93 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: these birch trees and willow trees and all that kind 94 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 1: of thing. When they take a dump, I mean, it's 95 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: a solid, oval shaped nugget that's very hard. So we 96 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: came up with the brilliant idea myself and my dentist 97 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: and another dentist that was in my rotary club thirty 98 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: one years ago, and decided to call it Moose Marble Madness. 99 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: We numbered one through two thousand of these moose turds, 100 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: and then we had tickets made and we would sell 101 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: the turds for ten bucks apiece, and we'd go up 102 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: in a helicopter and they would drop the moose nuggets 103 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: out of a helicopter. Anyway, that morning, the day he died, 104 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: Larry Fowler gave his buddy Bob Wheel a hundred bucks 105 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: for ten tickets. The next day, when we learned of 106 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: Fowler's death, he was stunned. He was also confused. Like 107 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: Fowler's family, he wondered what his friend had been doing 108 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: on some random, unfamiliar road. Why was he there? A 109 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: short time later, we'll hurt an explanation. The only thing 110 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: I know is that apparently somebody, somebody sent a woman 111 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,559 Speaker 1: in there from what I have heard, and the woman 112 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: slipped Larry a piece of paper with her phone number 113 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: on it and her address and said something in the 114 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: effect why don't you come see me or visit me 115 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: or something. So when Larry left the bar at one 116 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: or two am, that was the reason for the taxi 117 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: cab driver being on Rabbit Upper on Upper Rabbit Creek 118 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: Road was apparently going to this woman's address that was 119 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: on the piece of paper that Larry had that this 120 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: woman had slipped him the night before. Fowler was married 121 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: at the time, so if he was meeting up with 122 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: another woman that night, it could explain why he was 123 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: in an unfamiliar place and why it would be kept 124 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: hush hush. Well, wasn't the only person who told me this. 125 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: A second source said he heard the same thing. That 126 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: source speculated that it was a setup, that Fowler was 127 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: lured out of the bar and killed for some unknown reason. 128 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: So who was this mystery woman? Did she know Fowler previously? 129 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: Probably not, since she had to give him her phone number. 130 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: Adding to the intrigue, multiple sources told me that at 131 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: the time of his death, Fowler was funneling illegal contributions 132 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: to political campaigns and cash directly to multiple politicians. I've 133 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: heard names of people allegedly involved in the scheme, but 134 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: without further proof, I can't disclose them for now. Ultimately, 135 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: investigators believe the cab driver and in U the Anchorage 136 00:08:43,720 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: d A declined to prosecute him. So Larry Fowler, one 137 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: of five men Jerry Paisley said was involved with or 138 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: knew of, the alleged bombing of the missing congressman's plane, 139 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: was killed before investigators could question him. But what about 140 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: the other four men Paisley named Joe Banano, Joeya Tarrola, 141 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: Danny Zivinich, and Jeane Fowler. Banano died in two thousand two. 142 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: Iya tar Rolla died in I tried to interview Aya 143 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: tar Rolla before he died, but when I reached him 144 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: by phone in late he declined to comment and he 145 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: hung up on me. Zivinich declined multiple requests for an 146 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: on the record interview, and Jean Fowler, well, wait, we'll 147 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: get to him, Okay. So after Jerry Paisley made such 148 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: startling claims, what exactly happened? What kind of investigation took place? 149 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: Here's Dave Tullis, the Alaska State trooper. To my surprise, 150 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: when I got back with the tapes. Uh, we did 151 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: a transcript which I looked over and stored the tapes 152 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: in evidence, and after I decided this was pretty big 153 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: news and something that needs to be shared with bosses plural, 154 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: I went to my sergeant and my lieutenant and gave 155 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: them my transcript and a copy of my notes, and 156 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 1: they looked at it for not a long period of 157 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: time and said, we need to pass this off to 158 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: the FBI. And they notified the FBI and gave them 159 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: the transcript. And part of my recollection is that they 160 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: gave them the tapes. Now, whether those were duplicate tapes 161 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: the original tapes, I'm not sure. On December, the FBI's 162 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: Anchorage office received a copy of the Paisley transcript. That 163 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: did the bureau to launch a preliminary investigation, led by 164 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: Special Agent Luianne Henderson. Multiple people described Henderson to me 165 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: as an outstanding, hard working agent, but for some reason, 166 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: her investigation into Paisley's claims was by all accounts, cursory, insufficient, 167 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 1: and weak. Mainly, it consisted of reviewing the transcript, looking 168 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: at court records, reviewing FBI files, and reading old newspaper clips. 169 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: To my knowledge, Henderson conducted only a single interview on September. 170 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: That day, Henderson and another agent spoke with Danny Zevenitch, 171 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: Paisley's former business partner, the man who Paisley claimed told 172 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: him that the missing congressman's plane was bombed. The FBI's 173 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: interview was Zvinich, lasted a total of forty five minutes. Then, 174 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: on that very same day, the office of the U 175 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: S Attorney in Alaska declined to prosecute the case, which, 176 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: funny enough, nobody seems to remember. Bob Bundy, the U 177 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: S Attorney at the time, told me doesn't remember the case. 178 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: Karen Leffler, the assistant U S attorney who handled it 179 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: directly told me she doesn't remember the case, Whiley Thompson, 180 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: at the time, the Special Agent in charge or s 181 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: A C. Of the FBI in Alaska, told me he 182 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: doesn't remember the case, and former special Agent Lewin Henderson 183 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: declined a request for an on the record interview in September. 184 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: The same month, the FBI closed its investigation into Paisley's claims. 185 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: It replaced s a C. Wiley Thompson with another agent, 186 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: Marshall Bratton. Bratton's name is on an FBI document acknowledging 187 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: that the U. S. Attorney's Office declined to prosecute the case. 188 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: Bratton told me he doesn't remember the case either. Kevin Friesley, 189 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: a supervisor in the FBI's Anchor's office at the time, 190 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: decline interview request. When I reached him by phone, he 191 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: hung up on me. Danny Zevinich also declined multiple requests 192 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: for an on the record interview. So basically nobody remembers 193 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: the case and or nobody wants to talk about it. 194 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: It's important to know that Zivinich's bar was at the 195 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: time a popular watering hole for FBI agents. Many of 196 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,719 Speaker 1: the same agents who would have been tasked with investigating 197 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: him were friends with him and hung out at his bar. 198 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: I'm not insinuating that this was the case with Special 199 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: Agent Henderson, who to my knowledge was not friends with 200 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: Zivinach and did not frequent his bar unlike some of 201 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: her colleagues. But why did the FBI only conduct a 202 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: single interview the Zivinach interview. Theoretically the Bureau could have 203 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: interviewed Larry Fowler, I guess, but to be fair, Fowler 204 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: was killed only weeks after Paisley first named him, but 205 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: the FBI never interviewed any of the other people Paisley named. 206 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: Joe Banano was never interviewed, Gene Fowler was never interviewed, 207 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: Joey A. Tarola was never interviewed, and Peggy Baggatte wasn't interviewed. 208 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: The FBI only interviewed one person, Danny Zivinich, for forty 209 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: five minutes. The three Arizona and Alaska investigators who interviewed 210 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: Jerry Paisley before the FBI got involved have serious doubts 211 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 1: about how the bureau investigated, or more specifically, failed to investigate, 212 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: Paisley's claims. Do you think, given the severity and the 213 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: seriousness of Jerry Paisley's allegations, that it is sufficient enough 214 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: of an investigation to basically review archives and newspaper club 215 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: bangs and talked to one suspect for forty five minutes. 216 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: I would have to say no, I don't think that's 217 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: sufficient at all. And one of the things I was 218 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: cautious about is Arizona doesn't really allow recordings in a 219 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: penal institution, but the Elastia State troopers insisted, and I 220 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: insisted that we record the conversation. Had we not done that, 221 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: there would have been no record of really what happened 222 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: except our notes. The FBI doesn't record hardly anything. In 223 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: my experience. They used three O two's where they write 224 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: their notes, but they do not record. And I was 225 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: very pleased that the troopers insisted, and I insisted on 226 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: recording their conversations, and I was quite surprised that it 227 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: didn't go any farther than that. In the FBI apparently 228 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: didn't do an extensive investigation on the subject, and I 229 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: didn't really know how much they had or had not done, 230 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: but word filled back over a couple of years, and 231 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: I thought it was not well done at all. Dave 232 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: Tullus is a reliable swords if there ever was one. 233 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: He served for twenty years in the US Air Force 234 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: as both a fighter pilot and an aircraft accident investigator. 235 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: He served for six years as an Alaska State trooper 236 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: investigating major crimes, including homicides, and later he worked for 237 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: the Anchorage International Airport Police and Fire Department. Then he retired. 238 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: Mike Grimes, one of the other two investigators, also had 239 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: decades of experience, first as a patrolman for the Anchorage 240 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: Police Department, then on the vice squad, and finally as 241 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: head of the department's homicide unit. Getting back to the FBI. 242 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: When you got back to Alaska, what follow up did 243 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: you see on what Paisley had told you about the 244 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: alleged bombing. When I got back, I do you know 245 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: him telling me this, I knew how big a deal 246 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: it was, um, you know, to us Congressman might have 247 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: been murdered while they were in Alaska. I called an 248 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: FBI agent that I worked with numerous cases homicides and 249 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: such as am and we met and I told her, 250 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: and then you know, she said, you know, I gotta 251 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: take this right to the s AC, you know. And 252 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: I at that time I waited till uh we were 253 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: thinking these murder these talents about if the body showed 254 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: up or whatever. They were probably trooper cases, you know 255 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: from where he's saying, they took them out somewhere. So 256 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: Dave tall Us took the cassette tapes and had them 257 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: all transcribed, and the transcription of multiple pages not that thick, 258 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: and and so I waited until I got the transcript back, 259 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: and uh so I ran off an extra copy and 260 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: met with the FBI agent blue Ann Henderson, and I 261 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 1: told her about it, and I said, here's the transcript, 262 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: and I said, this is way way out of my 263 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: league as far as uh my jurisdiction on such as that. 264 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: And she took it and I didn't hear anything from 265 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: her for three or four weeks, you know, nothing, and 266 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: uh you know, which really uce me because we had 267 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: worked so closely on some other cases. Uh. I mean, 268 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: we did a drug murder where we had to uh 269 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: again flight Arizona and worked with drug murder and brought 270 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: the guy back with us. Uh, and he took us 271 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: to where the body was up in Alaska. But so 272 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 1: we had a great relationship and I really a lot 273 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 1: of respect for it. Anyway, she came back or didn't 274 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: come back with any information. I finally kept calling and 275 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: calling and uh you know, and she said, well, meet 276 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: me somewhere. So obviously she didn't want to meet in 277 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: her office or my office. So we went and met 278 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: and she said, I said, what's going on? I said, 279 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: I keep waiting for a phone call with somebody wanting 280 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: to interview me. And she goes, uh, this ain't being 281 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: handled out of here. This thing s a C. He 282 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: called Washington, and Washington said, don't do anything. You don't 283 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: put anybody on this, do not open investigations, send everything 284 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: you got to us. I go, oh okay. Then uh So, 285 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 1: I said, well, I would imagine that there whoever they 286 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: send to look into this is going to be calling me. 287 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: That only makes sense. I know everybody. I did. That 288 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: took the statement from him, and uh And I worked 289 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: with the FBI over and over. I had just graduated 290 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: from the FBI National Academy the year before that Quantico. 291 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: I had been brought to Quantico to instruct on our 292 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: homicide response team set up. And I've been to Quantico 293 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: and FBI Academy JE probably seven eight nine times and 294 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: they're not gonna call me. I mean that. I was amazed. 295 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: I mean I was brought in the Alaska representative for 296 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: the founding of the International Homicide Investigator Association, and I 297 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: was the Alaska guy then. So I had been vetted 298 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: by the the FEDS over and over again, and these 299 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: guys are going to come out of Washington, d C. 300 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: And they're not gonna call it one guy that knows 301 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 1: all these people. That doesn't even make sense. The FBI's 302 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: investigation went nowhere. Like Grimes and Tullus, Tom Davis, the 303 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: third investigator, also had a long distinguished career in law enforcement. 304 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 1: He worked for decades for the Arizona Department of Public Safety, 305 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: focusing for a time un organized crime. Davis told me 306 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: that other than him Grimes and tell us, someone from 307 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: the FBI also interviewed Paisley directly. If that's true, and 308 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: I can't prove that it is, there's no official record 309 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: of the interview and no information on who conducted it. 310 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: The Bureau I know for a fact interviewed Jerry Um 311 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: only because they're answered to me was that we didn't 312 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: need your approval. And I said back when I said, 313 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: that's right, I said, did he cooperate? Wow, he's not believable. 314 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: It's okay to your knowledge. Was there any more in 315 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: depth investigation or follow up? No, But a lot of 316 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: that basically has to do with the fact that the 317 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: conversation had to do with a person that um, get 318 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: in line, my friend. Uh, and you you want to 319 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: push your weight around, that's fine, but get in line. 320 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: In conclusion, then Tom Davis, Mike Grimes, and Dave Tollis, 321 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: three seasoned investigators, interview Jerry Paisley in Arizona in November. 322 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: Paisley told them that he transported a locked suitcase to 323 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: Alaska nineteen seventy two that Danny's Ivanache, with whom he 324 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: and Peggy Begett started a business, told him the suitcase 325 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: contained high tech explosives and that the missing congressman's plane 326 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: had been bombed. The FBI learned about this and conducted 327 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: a cursory feeble investigation, and the U. S. Attorney for Alaska, 328 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: the Assistant U. S Attorney, the Special Agent in charge 329 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: of the FBI in Alaska, and the S A C 330 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: who replaced him, none of them supposedly remember any of this. 331 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: I guess it's possible to forget that time in your 332 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: career when a murderer with mob ties who married the 333 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: widow of a missing congressman claimed the congressman was assassinated 334 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: and that a famous missing plane had been bombed. Is 335 00:22:49,480 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: that something you would forget? So the FBI didn't do 336 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: much and the U. S. Attorney's office declined to prosecute 337 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: the case. What about the media In the mid nineties 338 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: and enterprising producer for Dateline NBC named Chris Shoal learned 339 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: about Paisley's allegations and launched his own investigation. Shoal, who's 340 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: now an executive at NBC News, did a really good job. 341 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: I respect him. We had some of the same sources. 342 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: One of these sources gave me copies of letters and 343 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: emails Shoal sent in the nineties and early two thousand's. 344 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: Typically I would never report the content of another reporter's correspondence. 345 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: But since so few people investigated Paisley's claims, so many 346 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: sources have died, and the information is valuable, I'm breaking 347 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: that rule. And an email sent to a source on 348 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: September sev Seal wrote that he spoke quote to a 349 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: former reporter for the Anchorage Daily News. He won a 350 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: Pulitzer for reporting on the mafia and Alaska in the 351 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, and he told me my theory was not 352 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: only plausible, but that law enforcement sources of his speculated 353 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: about a bomb even back then. Shul continued quote. The 354 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: reporter told me one of his law enforcement sources took 355 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: several statements from witnesses that night who reported seeing someone 356 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: lurking around the plane. I'm trying to locate the officer 357 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: who told the reporter this and ultimately those witnesses. So 358 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: here we have a four time Emmy Award winning investigative 359 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: producer saying that one of his sources, a Pulitzer winner, 360 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: heard directly from a cop that witnesses saw someone lurking 361 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: around the congressman's plane the night before it disappeared. I 362 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: know that's a chain of so and so heard from 363 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: so and so, but look at the provenance. A cop 364 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: told a Pulitzer winner, who in turn told a respected 365 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: producer for Dateline NBC. In a separate letter to a 366 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: different source, which I also obtained, Schol emphasized that he 367 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,640 Speaker 1: was in no way a conspiracy theorist. Quote. My profession 368 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: requires skepticism, but I'm also a committed investigative journalist, and frankly, 369 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: it just seems like something stinks here. He goes on 370 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: to say that he was quote immensely skeptical of claims 371 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: made by people like Paisley, who clearly enjoys talking about 372 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 1: his past exploits. That alone may be enough motivation for 373 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: him to lie, but beyond that, he seems to have 374 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: little reason to completely fabricate a story, and in fact, 375 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: large chunks of what he's saying I've been able to document. Honestly, 376 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: I dreaded asking Schul for an interview. This is just 377 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: a weird situation for both of us because now not 378 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 1: only is schulan executive at NBC News, but specifically he 379 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: helps to oversee news standards, working on issues of fairness 380 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: and accuracy. Typically, he would be one of the people 381 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 1: helping to decide whether or not NBC reporters should participate 382 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: in a project like this. So was surprised that he 383 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: agreed to do an interview, and I was excited to 384 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: speak with him. You had the rare opportunity to speak 385 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: to Jerry Paisley. Did you interview him in President I 386 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: met him? Um, yeah, not with a camera, but yes, 387 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: he wasn't a jail um um it was whatever the 388 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: name of the jail is there in Tucson, the PMA 389 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: County Jail, right, that sounds right. And what was what 390 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 1: was that experience like meeting him? Um? Weird? I mean 391 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: I arrived and you know, you go through the normal 392 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: security stuff with the jail, um, glass reinforced doors, all 393 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: of that kind of thing, went past the security booth, 394 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: checked in my my stuff, um and uh, and went 395 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: into the room, and it was a small room. Uh. 396 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: He was sitting across the table from me, kind of 397 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: at an angle and uh, I he was not wearing handcuffs, 398 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: um uh and just was sitting there and we kind 399 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: of shook hands, um and I sat down. He sat down, 400 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: and that's about when he told me he uh he 401 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: could kill me right right then if he wanted to, 402 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: which was you know, I actually thought it was pretty silly. 403 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,719 Speaker 1: You know. It seemed like he was trying to uh 404 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: a little bit of bluster, a little bit of a bluff. 405 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: I didn't take him seriously, um, but it was I 406 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: thought a pretty good sign uh as to what this 407 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: guy was all about. I asked, so what he meant 408 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: in the nineties when he wrote that quote something stinks here? Well, 409 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: it was so weird, right, I mean, Paisley was an 410 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: unquestionably lousy guy. And uh the fact that he was 411 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: uh later got married to the the wife of a 412 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: congressman who died, and that he was making claims about 413 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: having some involvement in that um thinks right. I mean 414 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: I don't know what it means. I wasn't able to 415 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: determine for sure that he was telling the truth. That's clear. 416 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: But I also wasn't uh aware of any evidence that 417 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 1: I came across that would indicate he had a real 418 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: good reason to lie. Prisoners, you know, guys like that 419 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: lie all the time, and and they sometimes do it 420 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: for their own reasons. It's not always clear what their 421 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: reasoning is. Maybe he wanted to transfer to another facility somewhere, 422 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: but from what I remember, there was no real upside 423 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: to him lying about this, and I, as I had 424 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: been told, he had also been truthful to uh, you know, 425 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: on law enforcement officer on a number of other occasions 426 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: about other things he had been involved with that they 427 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: sort of knew he had been involved with. So my 428 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: my conclusion was, this is weird. It stinks. It just 429 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: by by that, it doesn't mean uh that I had 430 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,719 Speaker 1: you know, had this nail down. It means that something 431 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: wasn't right. Has felt that way to me. Chol said 432 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: that while he can't prove anything Paisley came across as truthful, 433 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: I can tell you that when I when I walked in, 434 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: when I sat down with him, um, I I came 435 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: away believing him, at least in part and partly because 436 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: he did not actually fest up to anything that would 437 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: have made his role look you know, huge, right, He 438 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: fessed up to a fairly minor role. Um and and 439 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: he also professed that he didn't really know why that's 440 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: my recollection anyway, He didn't really know what he was 441 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: doing or the purpose of everything behind it. But he 442 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: played this role, he said, so I to me, I 443 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: came away because I thought, you know, if this guy 444 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: was really trying to hype himself, he would have made 445 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: himself a bigger character. He was already uh, you know, 446 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: I think in life imprisoned at that point, he had 447 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: really nothing to lose by fessing up two more uh, 448 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: and I found him, you know, I mean, I've interviewed 449 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people through the years who um, who 450 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: are lying or who have an incentive to life, and 451 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: I have a pretty good radar for that. There's no 452 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: way to know for sure with him, but I just 453 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: found incredible. Seal also spoke briefly with Peggy Baggage. I 454 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: assume there's probably nothing you can share directly about that conversation. Yeah, 455 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: I don't want to get into the details. It's it's 456 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: fair to say she thought she thought Beasley was a 457 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: bad guy. Yea. She regretted it you put it that way, 458 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: but beyond that, I don't want to characterize anything. Ultimately, 459 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: despite Shul's hard work, Dateline didn't run the story, mainly 460 00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: because there was no definitive ending. So who was the 461 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: pulitzer winning reporter who told Schul that witnesses saw someone 462 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: lurking around the missing congressman's plane the night before it vanished? 463 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: In an email, should didn't name the reporter, but his 464 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: description of a reporter who won a pulitzer in Alaska 465 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: in the seventies narrow sings down significantly. In fact, there 466 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: are only two people who fit that profile, Bob Porterfield 467 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: and Howard Weaver. Porterfield and Weaver worked for the Anchorage 468 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: Daily News in ninety six. They want a Pulitzer for 469 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: a series they did on the statewide influence of the 470 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: powerful Teamsters Union. I tried to interview the men, both 471 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: of whom are still alive. Porterfield declined requests from on 472 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: the record interview. Weaver, however, agreed to speak with me, 473 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: but after our initial email exchange, he stopped responding. Schul 474 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: said that if memory serves him, it was Weaver, not Porterfield, 475 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: who told him that witnesses saw someone lurking around the 476 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: plane the night before it disappeared. Oddly enough, Weaver's name 477 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: has come up repeatedly during my investigation, sometimes in unexpected situations. 478 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: Multiple people, not Chris Shoal, but others, told me that 479 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: Weaver knows much more about all of this than he's 480 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: letting on. That he has specific important information about Paisley's claims. 481 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: So Howard, if you're listening, call me. Around two thousand 482 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: and award winning Alaska author named Charles Wolf started digging 483 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: into Paisley's claims too. Among other people, woll four spoke 484 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: with Mike Grimes, the Anchorage cop who helped interview Paisley. 485 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: Grimes said he gave woll four everything he had, but 486 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: for some reason, woll Fourth never wrote a book like 487 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: Chris Schal, he dropped the project. According to Grimes, woll 488 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: four got scared off. Woll Fourth did not respond to 489 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: recent interview requests, but I did have a chance to 490 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: speak with him briefly by phone. In During that call, 491 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,239 Speaker 1: wll Fourth told me that he dropped the project not 492 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: because he was scared off, but because he was unable 493 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: to corroborate Paisley's claims to definitively establish beyond doubt the 494 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: correct narrative. But there's something odd here. See. Wal Fourth 495 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: went to high school with Mark Beggatte and Tom beggat 496 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: He's a friend of the Beggatte family. In fact, he 497 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: told me that the Beggatte family cooperated with him on 498 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: the project. So if you take him at his word, 499 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: then he was investigating claims made by his friends x 500 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: step father that their mother had been involved in the 501 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: assassination of their father, and he was going to publish 502 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: a book on all of this. Does that make sense 503 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: to you? I mean, maybe to get ahead of the story, 504 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,959 Speaker 1: I guess, But it makes more sense to me that 505 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: woll Fourth conducted what would typically be referred to as 506 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: opposition research or OPO to see what dirt he could 507 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: dig up on Mark Beggatt before Beggetts ran for public office. 508 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: Shortly after wall Fourth dropped the project, Mark Beggatt was 509 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: elected the mayor of Anchorage. He served two terms before 510 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: winning a seat in the US Senate in two thousand eight. 511 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: He lost his reelection bid. He lost a guber nottorial 512 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: bid two Tom begat his brother, is also a politician 513 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: an Alaska state Senator via email. Tom Beggett's denied that 514 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: Wolforce research was some kind of OPO project conducted on 515 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 1: behalf of the Beggage family, But that's not consistent with 516 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: what Wolf Fourth, who spent six months on the project, 517 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: told me. In wolf Fourth said quote, it was kind 518 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: of a deal where the Beggage has welcomed me to 519 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: work on it before Mark ran for mayor. I think 520 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: they wanted to know what's the worst out there, and 521 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: if I found anything, I was going to publish it. 522 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: I was going to do a book. Wolf Fourth didn't 523 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: publish a book, but he did go on to work 524 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: as a consultant and speechwriter for Mark Beggatt from two 525 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: thousand three to two thousand nine. So, in conclusion, before me, 526 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: there were at least two other j analists who investigated 527 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 1: Paisley's claims, Chris shal the Dateline producer, and Charles Wolfforth, 528 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: the author. However, Paisley's claims were never made public until 529 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: that's when I published fore Gone, an initial story on 530 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: my findings, and that year I pitched my research to 531 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: every major news outlet in Alaska, every newspaper, every magazine, 532 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,760 Speaker 1: every TV station, every news radio station. Not a single 533 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: outlet in the state reported anything I found, And you 534 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: know what, I respect that. Okay, nobody owes me anything, obviously, 535 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: but this isn't about me. These were serious claims about 536 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: a missing politician that prompted a previously unreported FBI investigation, 537 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: and I made clear that I wasn't alleging anything. I 538 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: did not pitch the story saying the plane was bombed. 539 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 1: I pitched the story saying Jerry Paisley claimed the missing 540 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: plane was bombed. I offered to connect reporters in Alaska 541 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: to my own sources. I offered to provide documents. In 542 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: the end, only a single allowsk of reporter interviewed me, 543 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: and then that reporter didn't air the piece. In my opinion, 544 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: Paisley's claims deserved to be investigated. Here we have a 545 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: convicted murderer with documented mob ties who married the widow 546 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: of a missing congressman and claimed he played a part 547 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: in the death of the congressman. So why did the 548 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: Alaska media ignore this story. I'm not entirely sure, but 549 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: I can make a few educated guesses. First, it's toxic. 550 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: Alaska is huge land wise, but it has a small 551 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: insular circle of political and media elites. Why rock the boat? 552 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: Why piste off a powerful political family in the state 553 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: the Beggage is Second, I think there's general sympathy for 554 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 1: the Beggage kids, which I understand. They lost their dad 555 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: at a young age. They suffered a horrible loss and 556 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: lifelong grief. Honestly, I feel bad for them. Third, the 557 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: story is complex. It's easier to ignore than to investigate. 558 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: I mean, here I am nine years later. Fourth, I 559 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,959 Speaker 1: was just a freelancer. It was easy to ignore me. Thankfully, though, 560 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: I did get some press. In November, my friend and 561 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: former colleague at Seattle Weekly, Rick Anderson, a really amazing 562 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: old school reporter who later died, wrote a cover story 563 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: on my findings. It was Seattle, not Alaska, but Seattle 564 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: is the closest major American city to Alaska, and I'll 565 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: always be grateful to Rick for writing that story. Rick's 566 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: story opened Pandora's box. After it ran, I got many 567 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: new tips, including one which really blew me away, a 568 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: tip from a reliable source who said they may have 569 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,439 Speaker 1: found part of the missing plane. So later, in part 570 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: because of that tip, we're going to Alaska. But first 571 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: we're going to Arizona next time on missing in Alaska 572 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,800 Speaker 1: and your father met him at the airport. My father, Yes, 573 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: Oh wow, did you did you not know that? No? No, 574 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: this is the only thing I know about anything to 575 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: do with with with with What I think you're talking 576 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 1: about is Jerry was telling people there's a real big 577 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 1: deal about to go down, and that was right about 578 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,439 Speaker 1: the time that the that the baggage plane went down. 579 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: But uh no, this you're blown me away with this. 580 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: Before we go, two things. First, we're dropping a bonus 581 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: episode this week. It's the full text of a never 582 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: before published report on Jerry Paisley, prepared by a private 583 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: investigator for Dateline NBC. So check it out. Second, something 584 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: new an epilogue. Two years after the FBI ended its 585 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 1: investigation into Jerry Paisley's claims, the bureau got an interesting 586 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 1: new lead. A tipster whose name is blacked out in 587 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: records I obtained, sent the FBI copies of letters exchanged 588 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 1: between two people who discussed the alleged assassination of the 589 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: missing congressman. The names of these two individuals are blacked out, 590 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: but let me read you part of an official FBI 591 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: document with the word blank substituted in for redacted sections. Quote. 592 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: The correspondence, which covers the period September twelve to October 593 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: thirty one, consists of letters allegedly written by Blank to 594 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,359 Speaker 1: Blank that he had a conversation with Blank in which 595 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: Blank claims that while in Alaska nineteen seventy two, he 596 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: and Blank placed the bomb aboard Congressman Hail Boggs's plane. 597 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: Blank allegedly told Blank that the bombing was carried out 598 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 1: on the orders of his boss, alleged Blank, who was 599 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: doing a favor for Hoover. According to Blank, Congressman Boggs 600 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: wanted to cut the budget of the FBI, and Hoover 601 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: wanted Boggs taken out. So again, that's part of an 602 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: official FBI memo. Now here's something written by the tipster 603 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: who forwarded the mysterious letters to the bureau. Quote the 604 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: Hoover angle sounds far fetched to me. A convict conning 605 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: a convict. On the other hand, however, the insurance motive 606 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,399 Speaker 1: obviously could have some basis in fact. At any rate, 607 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,240 Speaker 1: I will keep you informed if there are any subsequent letters. 608 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: This is absolutely fascinating. Someone somehow got copies of letters 609 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: exchanged between two people, two convicts, apparently discussing the alleged 610 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: assassination of the missing congressman. Was one of the convicts, 611 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: Jerry Paisley. Maybe maybe not. I don't know something else 612 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: that's very interesting. The mystery letters covered the period of 613 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: September twelve to October, so the letters start on September. 614 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: That was exactly one day before the FBI interviewed Danny Zivinach, 615 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: one day before the U. S. Attorney's Office declined to 616 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 1: prosecute the case. So your task this week involves these letters, 617 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: specifically the tipster who sent them to the FBI. The 618 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: FBI blacked out nearly all of the tipsters information, nearly all. 619 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 1: At the bottom of the tipster's letter, still visible in 620 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: the footer, you can see the following Vanderbilt University one 621 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: two zero seven eight Avenue South, Nashville, Tennessee three seven 622 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:26,839 Speaker 1: to one two telephone six three two one nine five 623 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: six eight facts six to seven zero seven seven eight. 624 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,879 Speaker 1: So whoever sent the FBI the mystery letters in used 625 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: Vanderbilt University letter head. If you know who sent the letters, 626 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: or you are the person who sent the letters, please 627 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: contact us. You can reach us by phone at one 628 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: eight three three m I A tips that's one eight 629 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: three three six four two eight four seven seven again 630 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 1: one eight three three six four two eight war seven seven, 631 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: or you can reach us via email at tips at 632 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,800 Speaker 1: i heeart media dot com. That's tips, T I P 633 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: s at i heeart media dot com. An important note, 634 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 1: none of the people Jerry Paisley claimed took part in 635 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,240 Speaker 1: or had knowledge of the alleged bombing Joe Bonano, Joey A. Tarola, 636 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 1: Danny Zevianich, Gene Fowler, Larry Fowler, or Peggy Baggage where 637 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: ever charged with or convicted of crimes tied to any 638 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:34,359 Speaker 1: of Paisley's allegations. Ben Boland is our executive producer. Paul 639 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 1: Decan is our supervising producer, Chris Brown is our assistant producer, 640 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,360 Speaker 1: Seth Nicholas Johnson is our producer. Sam T. Garden is 641 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: our research assistant. And I'm your host and executive producer, 642 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: John Wallzac. You can find me on Twitter at at 643 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: John Wallzac j O n W A L c z 644 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 1: A K special thanks to Tom Davis, Mike Grimes, and 645 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,399 Speaker 1: Dave Tullis for having the courage to speak out while 646 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: so many others remained silent. Missing in Alaska is a 647 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: co production of I Heart Media and Greenfork Media. H