WEBVTT - Jim James 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:20.316 --> 0:00:23.276 Jim James, the frontman from My Morning Jacket, has lived 0:00:23.356 --> 0:00:26.876 many lives over the band's twenty seven year career. He 0:00:26.956 --> 0:00:29.796 started as a hopeful young musician, chasing the magic of 0:00:29.836 --> 0:00:34.876 his musical heroes while secretly fearing he'd never measure up. Later, 0:00:34.916 --> 0:00:38.036 he spiraled into heavy drinking and self doubt, teetering on 0:00:38.076 --> 0:00:41.636 the edge of leaving the band behind. But today Jim 0:00:41.716 --> 0:00:45.436 is in a much different place, healthier, more grounded, and 0:00:45.516 --> 0:00:48.116 full of self acceptance, thanks in part to a mix 0:00:48.116 --> 0:00:51.716 of traditional and psychedelic therapies he turned to during the pandemic. 0:00:52.996 --> 0:00:56.556 This month, My Morning Jacket returns with is their tenth 0:00:56.556 --> 0:01:00.156 studio album, and they're first made entirely with an outside producer, 0:01:00.436 --> 0:01:04.876 the legendary Brendan O'Brien. On today's episode, Lea Rose sits 0:01:04.916 --> 0:01:07.156 down with Jim to talk about the ayahuasca journey that 0:01:07.196 --> 0:01:08.156 helped him learn how. 0:01:07.996 --> 0:01:09.436 To truly love himself. 0:01:10.116 --> 0:01:12.116 He also looks back on the writing of the band's 0:01:12.156 --> 0:01:15.596 second album At Dawn and recalls this surreal moment he 0:01:15.636 --> 0:01:18.596 saw Bob Dylan disappear into the music while playing with 0:01:18.716 --> 0:01:26.476 him live. This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. 0:01:31.436 --> 0:01:33.076 You can see a full video of this interview on 0:01:33.116 --> 0:01:36.716 our YouTube page at YouTube dot com Slash Broken Record podcast. 0:01:37.316 --> 0:01:40.316 Now here's Leah Rose's interview with Jim James. 0:01:41.956 --> 0:01:43.836 So, when you go in to start a new project, 0:01:43.876 --> 0:01:49.116 like with the new album is, do you have a 0:01:49.196 --> 0:01:51.916 vision in mind for what you want it to sound 0:01:52.036 --> 0:01:54.956 like or what's the conceptual part for you? 0:01:55.676 --> 0:01:57.916 When you know, okay, this is the beginning of a 0:01:57.956 --> 0:01:58.556 new project. 0:01:59.996 --> 0:02:02.796 Well, it's so different. Every album is so different. And 0:02:02.836 --> 0:02:06.756 over the years, various gems over the time, have you 0:02:07.116 --> 0:02:12.556 had had ideas or con or opinions or theories or 0:02:12.596 --> 0:02:15.476 whatever about what they thought that the albums might be. 0:02:16.116 --> 0:02:19.916 And it's so funny because it's like the universe always 0:02:20.036 --> 0:02:23.396 makes the album what it's gonna be, you know, and 0:02:23.396 --> 0:02:25.516 and lots of most of my life I didn't. I 0:02:25.516 --> 0:02:28.596 didn't realize that until the last moment, you know, or 0:02:28.876 --> 0:02:30.756 or somewhere in there. Because you know, you can start 0:02:30.756 --> 0:02:35.036 with the concept let's make a heavy metal album, or 0:02:35.236 --> 0:02:37.636 let's make a protest album, or let's make this kind 0:02:37.636 --> 0:02:40.556 of album or that kind of album. But when you 0:02:40.596 --> 0:02:43.156 get in the studio, things start working and not working, 0:02:43.316 --> 0:02:47.596 and very quickly your heavy metal album turns into a 0:02:47.636 --> 0:02:50.356 folk album or whatever, you know, just to use broad terms. 0:02:50.516 --> 0:02:54.636 So I feel like this record more than ever. I 0:02:54.676 --> 0:02:58.876 feel like I really just tried to let myself put 0:02:59.076 --> 0:03:02.716 everything I have into the pot, and I put all 0:03:02.796 --> 0:03:05.556 of my ideas, even things that were kind of mostly 0:03:06.196 --> 0:03:09.036 finished or close to finish solo project ideas or one 0:03:09.236 --> 0:03:14.116 ever and thirty second voice memos, and you know, things 0:03:14.116 --> 0:03:16.516 we'd already recorded with My Morning Jacket that we're kind 0:03:16.516 --> 0:03:19.516 of we weren't totally happy with, but we just kind 0:03:19.516 --> 0:03:22.516 of put it all into the pot and I tried 0:03:22.516 --> 0:03:27.676 to step back and let it, let it be what 0:03:27.756 --> 0:03:28.476 it was going to be. 0:03:30.476 --> 0:03:33.676 I heard that you recently, and I don't know how 0:03:33.756 --> 0:03:36.716 much this has to do with recording the new album, 0:03:36.836 --> 0:03:39.316 the process, your creative process with the new album, but 0:03:39.436 --> 0:03:44.076 you had an experience with ayahuasca that sort of maybe 0:03:44.116 --> 0:03:48.396 brought some clarity to your life and your relationship with yourself. 0:03:49.796 --> 0:03:52.316 Was that a recent experience and does that have anything 0:03:52.316 --> 0:03:53.396 to do with this album? 0:03:54.516 --> 0:03:54.756 Oh? 0:03:54.796 --> 0:03:55.436 God, yeah. 0:03:55.476 --> 0:03:57.596 I mean I feel like I've been on a really, 0:03:57.636 --> 0:04:01.236 really great journey in the last five years or so 0:04:02.116 --> 0:04:04.836 I've been on it. I feel so excited and so 0:04:04.876 --> 0:04:09.636 grateful that I found a therapist in the pan pandemic 0:04:09.676 --> 0:04:13.476 that I really connected with and I really so I 0:04:13.476 --> 0:04:18.636 started doing EMDR and parts work therapy with him, and 0:04:18.676 --> 0:04:22.316 that EMDR is basically like, Uh, there's a lot of 0:04:22.356 --> 0:04:25.516 different ways you can do it, but you're basically trying 0:04:25.556 --> 0:04:31.556 to train your brain to put traumatic memories back where 0:04:31.556 --> 0:04:34.756 they're supposed to be. And you can you can either 0:04:34.836 --> 0:04:37.636 follow a light left to right, or you can tap 0:04:37.676 --> 0:04:40.156 on yourself left to right, and basically it's like this 0:04:40.316 --> 0:04:43.876 really interesting. Uh. And obviously if you google it or whatever, 0:04:43.916 --> 0:04:47.036 you can read far more scientific explanations on this. But 0:04:47.556 --> 0:04:52.276 you're basically, you work with your therapist to go to 0:04:52.316 --> 0:04:57.276 a traumatic moment and and while you're processing that traumatic 0:04:57.316 --> 0:05:01.356 moment in your mind, you're tapping or you're following a 0:05:01.436 --> 0:05:04.996 light or whatever works best for you. And basically it's 0:05:05.036 --> 0:05:07.916 like in my experience, because we all kind of I 0:05:07.916 --> 0:05:10.996 think we all know the feeling of of trauma taking 0:05:11.076 --> 0:05:13.076 us over when we don't want to be taken over. 0:05:13.236 --> 0:05:15.196 You know, it kind of starts playing like a full 0:05:15.236 --> 0:05:18.316 color HD movie and kind of taking over our lives. 0:05:18.796 --> 0:05:21.756 And basically you're trying to put it back into your 0:05:21.836 --> 0:05:25.316 memory box. Where it's just it's just another memory, like 0:05:25.356 --> 0:05:27.996 the you know, it's like a black and white polaroid 0:05:28.356 --> 0:05:30.836 compared to a full color HD movie with sound. And 0:05:31.396 --> 0:05:34.236 so I found when I work through those things and 0:05:34.436 --> 0:05:38.236 through different parts of myself, when I combine the parts, 0:05:38.316 --> 0:05:41.116 work therapy with it, so with that it's like a 0:05:41.156 --> 0:05:43.956 similar thing like you'll work with the twelve year old 0:05:44.036 --> 0:05:46.276 version of yourself or the five year old version of yourself, 0:05:46.356 --> 0:05:50.476 or wherever you've experienced these trauma and you process it, 0:05:50.836 --> 0:05:56.076 and as you process it, something's happening in your mind 0:05:56.196 --> 0:06:01.316 with the tapping where it's putting, it's kind of unpacking 0:06:01.436 --> 0:06:04.596 the power of the trauma to make it more of 0:06:04.636 --> 0:06:07.036 a normal memory, you know, where it doesn't have such 0:06:07.036 --> 0:06:09.756 a hold on you. And I feel like that for 0:06:09.836 --> 0:06:13.996 me has been extremely powerful. And I have coupled that 0:06:14.636 --> 0:06:21.836 with different psychedelic therapies like ayahuasca and ketamine five EO 0:06:21.956 --> 0:06:24.436 d MT different things, because I feel like I think 0:06:24.516 --> 0:06:26.636 one thing that I try to be careful about when 0:06:26.676 --> 0:06:31.156 talking with people about psychedelics in particular is not trying 0:06:31.196 --> 0:06:33.716 to be like, go do ayahuasca and everything's going to 0:06:33.796 --> 0:06:35.876 be great. You know, all your problems are gone, you know, 0:06:35.916 --> 0:06:37.556 because I think that's the kind of common thing that 0:06:37.596 --> 0:06:40.196 people think, Oh, if I go to ayahuasca, I think 0:06:40.236 --> 0:06:42.516 you really got I think all those things are important 0:06:42.636 --> 0:06:45.916 pieces of the puzzle, but I think you have to 0:06:45.956 --> 0:06:49.396 be very careful where you go and who you do 0:06:49.436 --> 0:06:52.236 it with, and be very guided, you know. I feel 0:06:52.236 --> 0:06:57.836 like I've always wanted to do a lot of those things, 0:06:57.876 --> 0:07:00.836 but I've always tried to wait until somebody that I 0:07:00.956 --> 0:07:03.436 trust kind of brought it to me, you know, the 0:07:04.036 --> 0:07:06.716 universe brings it to me, you know, And I feel like, 0:07:06.716 --> 0:07:09.116 so I've been fortunate to have some of those experiences. 0:07:09.276 --> 0:07:15.796 But yeah, ayahuasca was really, I mean, very varied experience, 0:07:15.996 --> 0:07:18.996 so many experiences. I mean we could talk shows and 0:07:19.036 --> 0:07:21.396 shows and shows about just that, but there was that 0:07:21.476 --> 0:07:25.796 was a very crucial piece in my healing journey of 0:07:26.196 --> 0:07:28.836 I had an experience where I was holding myself in 0:07:28.956 --> 0:07:31.956 my own arms, and I was this was twenty nineteen, 0:07:32.036 --> 0:07:35.316 right before the pandemic, and I was I was Jim 0:07:35.356 --> 0:07:38.636 in twenty nineteen, holding Jim in twenty nineteen, and it 0:07:38.716 --> 0:07:41.796 was as real as this, Like it wasn't like some 0:07:41.796 --> 0:07:45.076 some wild trippy hellucination. It was like as concretely real 0:07:45.116 --> 0:07:48.196 as this, And I was holding myself, kind of patting 0:07:48.196 --> 0:07:51.916 my hair back, looking into my own eyes, being like, Jim, 0:07:52.116 --> 0:07:54.716 you're so mean to yourself, buddy, Like you gotta you 0:07:54.756 --> 0:07:57.076 gotta be nicer to yourself. You gotta try and love 0:07:57.076 --> 0:07:59.636 yourself more. You know, you're you're a nice guy. You're 0:07:59.636 --> 0:08:03.116 trying your best. And I'm look, really, Jim, you really 0:08:03.196 --> 0:08:04.636 mean it, you know. And it was like I was 0:08:04.676 --> 0:08:07.796 able to see myself as another person, you know, And 0:08:07.836 --> 0:08:10.476 I think that's a that's a distinction that really helped 0:08:10.556 --> 0:08:14.556 me because it's easier for us to be nice to 0:08:14.756 --> 0:08:16.956 people we love, you know, but then we're so mean 0:08:16.996 --> 0:08:20.556 to ourselves. We rip ourselves to pieces. And I've spent 0:08:20.596 --> 0:08:24.636 my entire life ripping myself to pieces, being so mean 0:08:24.676 --> 0:08:27.956 to myself, trying to escape from myself, drinking myself to death, 0:08:27.996 --> 0:08:30.036 you know, just running, running, running, And that was a 0:08:30.036 --> 0:08:34.436 really important piece for me to see myself as somebody 0:08:34.436 --> 0:08:36.356 that I need to treat with kindness, you know. Like 0:08:36.396 --> 0:08:39.996 that was like a mind blower to me of like, God, 0:08:40.036 --> 0:08:43.396 if I can't be nice to myself, if I can't 0:08:43.436 --> 0:08:46.116 love myself, how can I hope to see the world 0:08:46.116 --> 0:08:49.196 with clarity, you know, or you know, it just was 0:08:49.196 --> 0:08:50.836 a really really big moment for me. 0:08:51.476 --> 0:08:52.676 Has it been able to stick? 0:08:54.116 --> 0:08:55.636 I really feel like it has. Yeah. I mean I 0:08:55.676 --> 0:08:58.396 feel like with with the therapy I've been doing, you know, 0:08:58.436 --> 0:09:02.956 it's like these experiences, I think, if you have someone 0:09:03.156 --> 0:09:07.156 safe to process them with and you keep working with them, 0:09:07.876 --> 0:09:09.836 I really do feel like they have begun to stick. 0:09:09.916 --> 0:09:12.676 I mean, I feel like I've I've never felt more 0:09:13.436 --> 0:09:18.636 peaceful or present in my life, you know, and I 0:09:18.676 --> 0:09:21.116 just feel so grateful for that. I feel like that, 0:09:21.716 --> 0:09:23.316 like you asked a minute ago, that was kind of 0:09:23.476 --> 0:09:26.356 all of that has kind of combined to kind of 0:09:26.476 --> 0:09:29.476 lead me to where I am when we're working on 0:09:29.516 --> 0:09:31.876 this album and beyond, you know, to kind of be 0:09:31.916 --> 0:09:36.276 able to not place my entire self worth in the 0:09:36.316 --> 0:09:39.476 success or failure of my band, you know, because most 0:09:39.476 --> 0:09:41.556 of my life I've done that, you know, most of 0:09:41.556 --> 0:09:44.196 my life. I'm like, if I get the world to 0:09:44.276 --> 0:09:47.836 love me, or I get this external validation, then maybe 0:09:47.876 --> 0:09:50.676 finally I can love me. But you know, that's that's 0:09:50.676 --> 0:09:52.356 a recipe that never works because you're just on the 0:09:52.436 --> 0:09:54.796 roller coaster ride of one day the world loves you 0:09:54.836 --> 0:09:56.276 and the next day of the world hates you or whatever, 0:09:56.276 --> 0:09:59.716 and you're up and down, up and down, and yeah, 0:09:59.756 --> 0:10:01.236 I keep trying to come back to like what can 0:10:01.276 --> 0:10:04.036 I What can I do that nobody can ever take 0:10:04.036 --> 0:10:07.276 away from me? You know, And that's love myself. You know, 0:10:07.316 --> 0:10:10.516 that's something we can all do for our selves, especially 0:10:10.556 --> 0:10:13.716 in the madness of the world, the chaos of the world. 0:10:14.316 --> 0:10:18.756 I feel like if everybody started trying to really love themselves, 0:10:19.836 --> 0:10:23.116 we would see that again to manifest and more healing 0:10:23.156 --> 0:10:26.236 and more peace and more love for each other. You know. 0:10:26.636 --> 0:10:28.756 It takes a lot of work, though, like you were saying, 0:10:28.796 --> 0:10:32.556 you had like a multi tiered approach to it, traditional 0:10:32.556 --> 0:10:33.556 and non traditional. 0:10:34.196 --> 0:10:37.396 I don't know if enough people make that investment in themselves. 0:10:38.276 --> 0:10:40.316 Well, I think it's important that we talk about it 0:10:40.356 --> 0:10:43.836 on things like this because I think, yeah, it's it's 0:10:43.876 --> 0:10:45.876 it's something you do have to take the time to do. 0:10:46.516 --> 0:10:51.116 But there's almost like this weird thing where our culture 0:10:51.196 --> 0:10:53.836 tells us where we're selfish, if we work on ourselves 0:10:53.916 --> 0:10:55.876 too much, or if we think about ourselves where and 0:10:55.916 --> 0:10:58.836 there's this of course, there are ways to be selfish 0:10:58.876 --> 0:11:02.076 and you know, narcissistic and ways that are kind of 0:11:02.116 --> 0:11:03.756 taking the energy in a bad way. But I think 0:11:03.796 --> 0:11:06.196 if we think about it kind of like that that 0:11:06.756 --> 0:11:10.276 episode I had in Ayahuasca, where like, if we think 0:11:10.316 --> 0:11:14.596 about ourselves as our own best friend or whatever, and 0:11:14.676 --> 0:11:17.596 we treat ourselves as if we would treat our most beloved, 0:11:17.876 --> 0:11:20.436 best friend or partner, you know, whoever in our life 0:11:20.436 --> 0:11:23.156 that we love the most. Yeah, if we if we 0:11:23.316 --> 0:11:28.116 started there, I mean, what what greater work is there 0:11:28.596 --> 0:11:31.836 to do? You know? Then delay that foundation? 0:11:32.436 --> 0:11:33.236 Yeah? 0:11:33.556 --> 0:11:36.836 Have friends or family or people who are you're really 0:11:36.836 --> 0:11:38.796 close to have they noticed a difference in you? 0:11:40.156 --> 0:11:42.276 Yeah, they really have. And I feel like the band, 0:11:42.316 --> 0:11:44.916 it's been a really really special thing because because for 0:11:45.076 --> 0:11:48.436 years I was a terrible communicator, and I was so 0:11:48.516 --> 0:11:54.276 depressed and uh just drinking and trying to run from 0:11:54.316 --> 0:11:57.476 life and not being able to communicate how it's feeling, 0:11:57.596 --> 0:12:00.236 and uh so there'd be a lot of bad energy 0:12:00.316 --> 0:12:03.876 or a lot of unspoken energy, you know. And and 0:12:04.876 --> 0:12:07.356 the band, you know, we almost didn't make it several 0:12:07.396 --> 0:12:10.076 times throughout the years, you know. And I feel like, 0:12:11.836 --> 0:12:15.236 luckily we've all been on a similar journey lately where 0:12:16.196 --> 0:12:19.236 everybody is really trying to take good care of themselves 0:12:19.396 --> 0:12:23.276 and do the work to like heal themselves, and you know, 0:12:23.396 --> 0:12:28.036 and that's been this really beautiful, uh era of just 0:12:28.236 --> 0:12:30.996 better communication. You know. It's like it's not like things 0:12:31.036 --> 0:12:34.516 are always easier that no problems arise, but I think 0:12:34.756 --> 0:12:37.716 when you instantly address the problem and talk about it 0:12:37.756 --> 0:12:40.876 and clear the air, that like lets it all blow through. 0:12:41.276 --> 0:12:43.116 And I think we've got we've been in this really 0:12:44.356 --> 0:12:46.436 just I mean we kind we kind of all like 0:12:46.596 --> 0:12:49.676 hug and talk about it all the time, like, look, 0:12:49.836 --> 0:12:52.956 how lucky are we We're still you know, twenty five 0:12:53.036 --> 0:12:55.796 years later, we're still playing music and we still love 0:12:55.836 --> 0:12:57.876 each other and we're not like trying to kill each 0:12:57.876 --> 0:13:00.556 other or like hiding from each other or like having 0:13:00.636 --> 0:13:03.236 separate you know worlds or you know, it's just like 0:13:03.356 --> 0:13:07.756 everyone has to so totally yeah, yeah, yeah, we're just 0:13:07.836 --> 0:13:10.316 so you know, so great. Yeah. 0:13:10.356 --> 0:13:12.396 I mean that seems to be the move in as 0:13:12.436 --> 0:13:15.796 you approach midlife, is to take sock in your health 0:13:15.876 --> 0:13:18.276 and really try and be a better person. 0:13:18.836 --> 0:13:21.356 And it's really sad when you think about people who didn't. 0:13:21.156 --> 0:13:23.636 Make it this far, people who died early and they 0:13:23.636 --> 0:13:25.636 didn't get to a point where they're like on a 0:13:25.676 --> 0:13:26.836 self improvement kick. 0:13:27.876 --> 0:13:30.516 I know, well, God, I mean, midlife can go the 0:13:30.556 --> 0:13:32.716 other way too, you know, you can hit the other 0:13:32.716 --> 0:13:35.316 way if you haven't done that work and start springing 0:13:35.356 --> 0:13:39.596 into other ways just like, yeah, got to be crazy 0:13:39.756 --> 0:13:42.676 and yeah, well yeah, the classic midlife crisis kind of 0:13:42.676 --> 0:13:44.996 stuff you know, that we hear about and that we 0:13:45.036 --> 0:13:48.276 see out in the world. Unfortunately, a lot of people 0:13:48.356 --> 0:13:51.196 that are in positions of power in our world right now, 0:13:51.436 --> 0:13:55.356 we're watching them experience their midlife crisis and you know, 0:13:55.396 --> 0:13:58.236 taking it out on everybody else. And because I mean 0:13:58.316 --> 0:14:02.236 think about, like, God, if Kurt Cobain or you know, 0:14:02.356 --> 0:14:06.956 Jimmy Hendrix or whoever people struggle with absolutely, Jim Morrison, whoever, 0:14:06.956 --> 0:14:10.596 people who struggle with substance abuse, Joblin, whoever, think about 0:14:11.036 --> 0:14:13.996 if they could have found a way out and found 0:14:14.036 --> 0:14:16.716 a way to get past that, they could still be here. 0:14:17.196 --> 0:14:20.636 You know, we could still be experiencing music from Marvin 0:14:20.676 --> 0:14:22.956 Gay or you know they're talking all these people this 0:14:23.236 --> 0:14:25.036 just like, I think we really need to think about 0:14:25.036 --> 0:14:27.676 that for the future, you know, that that we can 0:14:28.396 --> 0:14:35.196 hopefully get this word out that it's okay if you're depressed, 0:14:35.836 --> 0:14:38.716 it's okay if you struggle with substance abuse, like talk 0:14:38.756 --> 0:14:40.796 to somebody about it, like find a way there is 0:14:40.836 --> 0:14:44.276 a way out, you know, and don't beat yourself up 0:14:44.396 --> 0:14:48.756 or feel like you're all alone or your failure or whatever. 0:14:48.796 --> 0:14:50.876 You know. I think we really need to address that. 0:14:50.916 --> 0:14:53.956 A lot of this stuff, a lot of it comes 0:14:53.996 --> 0:14:56.316 genetically or it comes through some pipeline. 0:14:56.356 --> 0:14:56.436 You know. 0:14:56.436 --> 0:14:59.076 It's not like people ask to be depressed or to 0:14:59.116 --> 0:15:03.116 be genetically disposition towards alcoholism or drug abuse or whatever, 0:15:03.156 --> 0:15:04.796 you know. So I think the more we can talk 0:15:04.836 --> 0:15:06.076 about it, and the more we can try to get 0:15:06.116 --> 0:15:08.996 people the help they need, the more we can see 0:15:08.996 --> 0:15:14.596 the future people now live to still create, you know, totally. Yeah. 0:15:14.636 --> 0:15:18.876 And I don't know what your relationship is like with 0:15:18.916 --> 0:15:22.476 your parents or if they're living or what, but has 0:15:22.516 --> 0:15:25.796 this change in you has it changed your relationship with 0:15:25.836 --> 0:15:27.556 your parents or with family members? 0:15:28.676 --> 0:15:31.796 Oh? God, absolutely yeah. My parents are amazing. They're still alive, 0:15:31.916 --> 0:15:34.356 and we're really close and we spend a lot of 0:15:34.396 --> 0:15:38.116 time together. And I mean, I think every family, you know, dynamic, 0:15:38.236 --> 0:15:42.356 is complex and has its difficulties and stuff like that. 0:15:42.596 --> 0:15:46.356 But one thing I recognize the more that I try 0:15:46.396 --> 0:15:50.516 to find peace with myself is that everybody's on their 0:15:50.556 --> 0:15:53.356 own journey, and a lot of the times the best 0:15:53.356 --> 0:15:56.316 thing we can do for somebody is just be there 0:15:56.356 --> 0:15:59.396 to listen to them and not think that we can 0:15:59.516 --> 0:16:03.276 keep solving their problems. You know that we have all 0:16:03.316 --> 0:16:05.476 the answers. And you know, I think I think that's 0:16:05.556 --> 0:16:09.676 one thing that I've struggled with. On another people have 0:16:09.676 --> 0:16:12.436 struggle with is when you watch somebody that you love 0:16:13.316 --> 0:16:15.756 suffer whatever, and you keep wanting to help them. You know, 0:16:15.796 --> 0:16:17.996 you're like, oh my god, if only you just won't 0:16:18.036 --> 0:16:20.756 you just do this? Won't you just do that? Yeah? 0:16:20.796 --> 0:16:24.396 And I think a lot of times people don't need 0:16:24.436 --> 0:16:26.716 to hear that, you know. It's like people people just 0:16:26.756 --> 0:16:28.996 need you to be there for them and listen to them, 0:16:29.356 --> 0:16:31.596 and yeah, speak your peace and and you know, put 0:16:31.636 --> 0:16:34.196 out put some things on the table that could help them. 0:16:34.276 --> 0:16:36.636 But then I think sometimes we need to step back 0:16:36.676 --> 0:16:38.996 and say. That's one thing I just kept coming to 0:16:39.196 --> 0:16:42.636 again and again, was like, well, like, whoa man, how 0:16:42.636 --> 0:16:45.876 can I offer anybody advice if I'm constantly at war 0:16:45.916 --> 0:16:48.476 with myself? You know, like where am I? Where am 0:16:48.516 --> 0:16:52.476 I offering advice from? If my whole world is in chaos? 0:16:52.676 --> 0:16:52.876 Yeah? 0:16:53.116 --> 0:16:56.236 You know, and so I think that's like the uh, 0:16:56.276 --> 0:16:58.716 the thing I've tried to come back to with my 0:16:58.876 --> 0:17:01.556 family and friends. It's just like, how can I be 0:17:01.636 --> 0:17:04.396 there to to support them and listen to them. 0:17:04.556 --> 0:17:07.956 Yeah, and you said something about Era about my morning 0:17:08.036 --> 0:17:12.596 Jacket having ERA earlier, and I was reading on Reddit 0:17:12.716 --> 0:17:14.996 and it seems like a lot of your fans think 0:17:15.036 --> 0:17:19.476 of the band in distinct eras. And I saw somebody 0:17:19.516 --> 0:17:22.556 mention that they thought a distinct era was post COVID. 0:17:22.716 --> 0:17:24.956 So it's sort of interesting that that lines up with 0:17:25.076 --> 0:17:29.636 that experience for you. And I was wondering for you, 0:17:29.636 --> 0:17:31.996 you've been in it. It might just be hard to 0:17:31.996 --> 0:17:34.796 think of it objectively. But do you think of the 0:17:34.836 --> 0:17:38.596 band as like distinct eras that line up maybe with 0:17:38.716 --> 0:17:42.756 albums or decades or how do you think of it? 0:17:43.476 --> 0:17:46.396 Oh? Yeah, definitely. It's so funny because we've been thinking 0:17:46.396 --> 0:17:48.996 about this a lot, because I look back because we 0:17:49.076 --> 0:17:53.316 constantly have to do things like learn an old song 0:17:53.356 --> 0:17:54.876 that we're going to play or something that we haven't 0:17:54.876 --> 0:17:59.036 played in ten years or more. So I'm constantly looking 0:17:59.076 --> 0:18:02.476 back on all these old gyms that have gone through 0:18:02.476 --> 0:18:04.796 all of these albums. Because each album is like a 0:18:04.836 --> 0:18:07.796 time machine for me, you know, And it's like and 0:18:07.916 --> 0:18:11.196 if I have to go back to it and hear it, 0:18:11.236 --> 0:18:14.596 and I like hear that old Gem and I'm like, wow, man, 0:18:15.156 --> 0:18:20.556 Like that Gem was so lost in being Jim, so 0:18:20.716 --> 0:18:25.796 completely consumed by this experience of being Jim and being 0:18:25.836 --> 0:18:29.156 gobbled up by this depression or this fear or whatever, 0:18:29.716 --> 0:18:35.636 that he was so consumed in it. But at the 0:18:35.716 --> 0:18:38.476 same time, like I always know that he was trying 0:18:38.476 --> 0:18:41.876 the best he could, and that kind of really gives 0:18:41.916 --> 0:18:44.396 me this piece as I look back across everything and 0:18:44.756 --> 0:18:48.516 the sense of like I'm so proud of everything that 0:18:48.596 --> 0:18:51.716 I've ever done. I still show up to do the work, 0:18:52.316 --> 0:18:55.756 but I accept that, like a lot of the things 0:18:55.796 --> 0:18:59.796 are gonna happen, They're not really in my control. Whereas 0:18:59.796 --> 0:19:01.676 as I look back in this time machine and all 0:19:01.716 --> 0:19:04.756 the old Gems, all these old Gems were so locked 0:19:04.796 --> 0:19:07.756 into their ego of Jim, and so there's so much 0:19:07.796 --> 0:19:11.636 resistance and so much depression and anger and fighting and 0:19:11.956 --> 0:19:14.156 the universe still was going to do what it was 0:19:14.196 --> 0:19:16.716 going to do, but I couldn't see that, and I 0:19:16.756 --> 0:19:19.596 was fighting it and just like so consumed in this 0:19:19.676 --> 0:19:23.716 whole thing, so Yeah, it's so interesting when I look back, 0:19:23.876 --> 0:19:27.796 because there's so much fun in there, and so much 0:19:27.916 --> 0:19:32.716 joy too, and hilarity and experience and love and brotherhood 0:19:32.836 --> 0:19:34.836 with the guys in the band and you know, everybody 0:19:34.836 --> 0:19:37.156 I've ever collaborated with, and all all of this. But 0:19:37.156 --> 0:19:40.596 there was so much fear there too, and so much 0:19:40.636 --> 0:19:44.196 depression that I feel like I look back on all 0:19:44.356 --> 0:19:48.836 those different eras of Jim and I really try to 0:19:48.836 --> 0:19:51.916 be compassionate towards him or whatever, because it's I have 0:19:52.076 --> 0:19:54.476 to embody him all the time, you know, anytime I 0:19:54.516 --> 0:19:58.156 sing one of those songs to embody this old version 0:19:58.196 --> 0:19:59.996 of Jim, you know. And it used to be when 0:20:00.036 --> 0:20:05.636 I was still depressed and I was still being eaten alive. 0:20:06.076 --> 0:20:08.556 As the latest version of Jim that's having to go 0:20:08.596 --> 0:20:10.236 back and do all these older gym soles are cool. 0:20:10.236 --> 0:20:12.876 Oh my god, I can't tired good. I can't take it. 0:20:13.076 --> 0:20:17.476 But now the more peaceful I've become, it's become really 0:20:17.636 --> 0:20:22.476 fun and more easy for me to go be twenty 0:20:22.476 --> 0:20:24.316 two year old Gym or twenty five year old Jen 0:20:24.476 --> 0:20:27.796 or nearly suicidal thirty year old Gym or whatever it is. 0:20:28.076 --> 0:20:29.996 And I can see it all with more compassion, and 0:20:30.036 --> 0:20:31.676 we can have more fun as a band, you know, 0:20:31.716 --> 0:20:34.956 we can do wilder setlists and do every single song 0:20:35.036 --> 0:20:39.756 we've ever recorded or whatever, Whereas before my depression limited 0:20:39.756 --> 0:20:42.036 my range of what I could do because I just 0:20:42.076 --> 0:20:43.516 couldn't do a lot of things. 0:20:43.876 --> 0:20:47.356 Oh wow, Do you ever have the experience where, similar 0:20:47.436 --> 0:20:49.596 to the therapy that you were talking about, how you're 0:20:49.636 --> 0:20:53.676 trying to sort of rewire or change the impact of 0:20:53.716 --> 0:20:57.036 a traumatic memory. Do you ever sing an old song 0:20:57.196 --> 0:20:59.156 and try and do the same thing with the old 0:20:59.236 --> 0:21:03.596 song to where you're trying to rewire the experience of it. 0:21:04.636 --> 0:21:07.276 Definitely. Yeah, It's so crazy, because, yeah, when I feel 0:21:07.276 --> 0:21:12.716 like when I was still being eaten alive by my 0:21:12.916 --> 0:21:16.876 alcoholism or my depression, like maybe twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, 0:21:16.956 --> 0:21:19.556 something like that. In that period, when I was trying 0:21:19.556 --> 0:21:21.556 to go back and do some of the old songs, 0:21:21.876 --> 0:21:25.436 it was so dark, so difficult, you know. But now 0:21:25.956 --> 0:21:27.236 when I go back and try to do some of 0:21:27.276 --> 0:21:30.556 those darker songs, there is this really beautiful rewiring or 0:21:30.596 --> 0:21:34.436 something where it's like it's like geez, like what a 0:21:34.476 --> 0:21:37.716 gift that I'm able to like go back and revisit 0:21:37.796 --> 0:21:40.396 this energy and almost like it ye, heal it, you know, 0:21:40.476 --> 0:21:45.196 like somehow manifest the energy still and create it because 0:21:45.196 --> 0:21:49.316 there's a lot of like wailing and screaming and like waw, 0:21:49.556 --> 0:21:51.596 you know, like a lot of energy that old Jim 0:21:51.756 --> 0:21:54.156 had to get out or whatever that now when I 0:21:54.236 --> 0:21:59.236 get it out, it's like this beautiful yeah changing of 0:21:59.276 --> 0:22:01.356 the energy or releasing of the energy. And there's this 0:22:01.396 --> 0:22:04.756 gratitude there where like whoa, Like how lucky am I 0:22:04.796 --> 0:22:08.356