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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily, and this is and you're listening

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Speaker 1: to stuff mom never told you. Today, we are continuing

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Speaker 1: the conversation on role overload you may have heard the

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Speaker 1: other week from our friends and author Liz O'Donnell talking

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Speaker 1: through the major conflicts and challenges that can be a

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Speaker 1: result of being both a working professional and a daughter

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Speaker 1: caring for aging parents. Today, we're continuing the conversation on

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Speaker 1: the same theme around roll overload and roll conflict, which,

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Speaker 1: as a reminder, those are the feelings of wearing too

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Speaker 1: many hats, or trying to be everything to everyone, or

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Speaker 1: that feeling that the roles you're playing are constantly competing,

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Speaker 1: constantly competing. We're in you can't a good daughter if

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Speaker 1: you're also a good mother. You can't be a good

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Speaker 1: employee if you're also being a good wife, exactly, and

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Speaker 1: that's why we're so excited to really hone in today

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Speaker 1: on the conflicts that can emerge for working parents and

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Speaker 1: specifically for working mothers. Today we are excited to be

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Speaker 1: joined by our incredible friend and author Tiffany Doofu, who

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Speaker 1: you may know from her amazing book called Drop the Ball.

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Speaker 1: Tiffany Doofu is a catalyst at large in the world

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Speaker 1: of women's leadership. She's the author of Drop the Ball,

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Speaker 1: a memoir and a manifesto that shows women how to

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Speaker 1: cultivate the single skill they really need in order to thrive.

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Speaker 1: The Ability to let Go. Named a Fast Companies League

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Speaker 1: of Extraordinary Women, Tiffany was a launch team member to

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Speaker 1: Lean In and his chief leadership officer to Lavo, one

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Speaker 1: of the fastest growing millennial professional networks are to that,

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Speaker 1: Tiffany served as the president of the White House Project,

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Speaker 1: as a major Gifts officer at Simmons College in Boston,

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Speaker 1: and as Associate Director of Development Seattle Girls School, an

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Speaker 1: institution committed to giving all girls the power to be innovative, confident,

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Speaker 1: critical thinkers. Tiffany, you've long said that your life's work

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Speaker 1: is helping empower women and girls. I'm so excited for

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Speaker 1: you to join us here at stuff. Mom never told

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Speaker 1: you where we share that goal. Oh that's fabulous, and

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Speaker 1: thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

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Speaker 1: We're so happy to have you here, Tiffany. So, Tiffany,

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Speaker 1: you pretty much do it all. It sounds like, how

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Speaker 1: did you get into this work? So I will first,

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Speaker 1: I would say that I do believe that I have

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Speaker 1: it all, um, And what that means to me is

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Speaker 1: that I have a really healthy partnership, and I have

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Speaker 1: kids who were pretty much on track to be conscious

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Speaker 1: global citizens, and I have a career that is really

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Speaker 1: all about out my past and my purpose. And on

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Speaker 1: most days I'm pretty healthy and fit and joyful. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I don't do it all in order to have

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Speaker 1: it all, um, which is I know that which we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about. And I got started really because

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Speaker 1: of my relationship with my mom, which I know that

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Speaker 1: we're talking about today. She you know, found out that

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Speaker 1: she was pregnant with me when she was nineteen, and

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Speaker 1: she was what I call a nonpaid working mom, because

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Speaker 1: all moms are working moms, but she chose to work

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Speaker 1: inside of the home and she didn't get compensated for

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Speaker 1: her labor. And when my parents got divorced when I

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Speaker 1: was sixteen, I saw the impact of that decision on

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Speaker 1: my mom's life. She really struggled after the divorce, and

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Speaker 1: so I became quite committed to getting to as many

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Speaker 1: women as possible and really supporting them in understanding that

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Speaker 1: they were the most powerful change agents in their own

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Speaker 1: journey because I saw the challenges that my mom had

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Speaker 1: after the divorce. So that's the root of why I

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Speaker 1: do what I do. I love how you explain that,

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Speaker 1: because for all the things we want to cover today,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the role conflict, that can really

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Speaker 1: be an issue for women who both identify as mothers

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Speaker 1: and as those who are working in the paid labor force.

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Speaker 1: We do not want to wade into the mommy wars. Right,

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Speaker 1: we're often sort of pigeonholed as feminists, especially that the

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Speaker 1: discussion of women and work sometimes leads us down that

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Speaker 1: road to feeling like it's mothers who are compensated for

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Speaker 1: their labor in the paid labor force and versus mothers

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Speaker 1: who stay at home. And that's certainly not what we're

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Speaker 1: trying to do today. Totally definitely not, And it's so unfair.

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Speaker 1: It's just another way to pit women's experiences against each

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Speaker 1: other and sort of turn it into this unnecessary competition.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it has to be that way at all.

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Speaker 1: I love the way that you highlight that, Tiffany and

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Speaker 1: you in your mom's own experiences and talking about that, Oh, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: because you know we're there's only one egosyystem and and

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Speaker 1: really in order for us to do what I would

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Speaker 1: love us to do, which is get more women into

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Speaker 1: the highest levels of leadership, we do need women who

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Speaker 1: are really clear about the choices that they're making. And

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Speaker 1: there's no way, to be honest that I would be

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Speaker 1: able to do what I do every day if it

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Speaker 1: wasn't for the mothers who knew what was going on

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Speaker 1: at my kids school, who I was texting under the

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Speaker 1: table asking them to go pick up my kid when

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Speaker 1: they're picking up there. Is because I'm stuck in a meeting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I actually wouldn't be where I am without

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Speaker 1: um my nonpaid working moms that are a part of

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Speaker 1: my village. So that's part of the reason why I

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Speaker 1: think the mommy wars are over and dead is because

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Speaker 1: we all need each other. Yeah, I mean, it's a

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Speaker 1: it's an ecosystem. Just like you said, it's a village.

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Speaker 1: It's all of these different kinds of women with all

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Speaker 1: of these different kinds of backgrounds and experiences coming together

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Speaker 1: for one shared goal. That's so beautiful. I would love

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Speaker 1: to see that be the narrative of how we talked

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Speaker 1: about these roles exactly the ecosystem of women crushing it,

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Speaker 1: love it. And I think what you underscore, Tiffany, is

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Speaker 1: that idea of women having choice in the matter right

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Speaker 1: because I think the way that our country works right

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Speaker 1: now makes those choices for a lot of us feel

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Speaker 1: pretty constrained. And so the whole concept of role overload.

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Speaker 1: When we first started talking about this last week with

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Speaker 1: Liz O'Donnell, there was some contrary evidence that we uncovered

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Speaker 1: where people are saying, Oh, you're feeling conflicted between the

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Speaker 1: multiple roles you're playing women, Why don't you just not

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Speaker 1: playing that many roles? And I'm curious because we're going

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Speaker 1: to come back to your underlying message of dropped the ball.

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Speaker 1: But this message of you know, women should stay at

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Speaker 1: home or be forced into that kind of a role,

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Speaker 1: or women should be forced into, you know, seeking professional

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Speaker 1: advancement and not having children, those binaries seem so ludicrous

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Speaker 1: to me, because it's all about making sure women actually

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Speaker 1: have control, making sure women actually are able to make

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Speaker 1: those choices and in less of a constrained way than

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Speaker 1: they feel right now. And so actually, one of the

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Speaker 1: pieces of data that I wanted to highlight here is

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Speaker 1: that in the Huffington's post, Lisa Belkin wrote, and yet

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Speaker 1: another study finds working moms are happier and healthier. She

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Speaker 1: underscores that you know, Gallop found stay at home mothers

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Speaker 1: were more likely to experience stress, worry, anger, and sadness

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Speaker 1: than those who held paying jobs. A few days earlier,

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Speaker 1: the British Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health reported that

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Speaker 1: stay at home women were more likely to experience challenges

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Speaker 1: with their health than those who juggled children and a

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Speaker 1: steady relationship in a paycheck. In this particular instance, they

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Speaker 1: actually found a correlation between obesity and staying at home.

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Speaker 1: And so I guess the question boils down to, for me,

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Speaker 1: what is the challenge that we're running up against with

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Speaker 1: role conflict? Do you hear about these challenges for women?

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Speaker 1: It sounds so much like what you were talking about

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Speaker 1: in our previous iteration of this episode. How you know

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Speaker 1: you have a specific relationship with the people who are

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Speaker 1: your clients, who you who are paying for your services,

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Speaker 1: but then when it comes to your parents, when you

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Speaker 1: go home for Thanksgiving or for the holidays, you get

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Speaker 1: a little stressed out. And I think this is the

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Speaker 1: same kind of thing where when you're dealing with something

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Speaker 1: that is your work, perhaps it's easier to be like,

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Speaker 1: this is my job. I'm not personalizing it. I don't

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Speaker 1: have the same kind of emotional investment as I do

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Speaker 1: with managing all the different things that happened at home

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Speaker 1: with your kids, who you have a different, you know,

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Speaker 1: emotional relationship with. Yeah, is that what you're hearing from women, Tiffany,

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Speaker 1: When you were on the journey of writing this book

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Speaker 1: and compiling all of the research and all the women

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Speaker 1: you worked with to make drop the Ball of Reality?

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Speaker 1: What what were the kinds of challenges that you were

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Speaker 1: hearing from women both who work for pay and who

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Speaker 1: work at home. Well, some of the challenges that I

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Speaker 1: hear consistently are some of the ones that you're mentioning,

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Speaker 1: Largely that I'm stressed and then I've overwhelmed because i

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Speaker 1: have a lot of things on my plate and I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure how to prioritize all of the things that

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Speaker 1: I've committed to. I'm not even sure if all the

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Speaker 1: things I've committed to are all the things that I

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Speaker 1: want to do, but I certainly am feeling the pressure.

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Speaker 1: I would argue that we have less of a challenge

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Speaker 1: around role conflict and more of a challenge around role definition.

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Speaker 1: So most of us enter our lives fulfilling particular roles.

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Speaker 1: If we're a woman, the first role is usually daughter.

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Speaker 1: If we become a sibling, then a sister, certainly a friend,

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Speaker 1: a student, at some point workers we eventually some of

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Speaker 1: us become wives and mothers. And what I've discovered in

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Speaker 1: connecting with so many women as it, even though we're

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Speaker 1: born in different parts of the world, to different families,

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Speaker 1: different cultures, different values, somehow we've all ended up with

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Speaker 1: very similar job descriptions for what it means to be

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Speaker 1: a good anything. And if you are ambitious, then you

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Speaker 1: by default put the word good in front of all

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Speaker 1: of your roles. So it's not sufficient to be a mom.

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Speaker 1: You want to be a good mom, not just a student.

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Speaker 1: You want to be a good student. And the job

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Speaker 1: description around what it means to be a good mother,

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Speaker 1: because I know that's what we're focused on today, has

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Speaker 1: a number of lines in it that are problematic and

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Speaker 1: are unrealistic. For example, one of the lines and the

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Speaker 1: good mom job description says that you need to be

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Speaker 1: physically present when your child takes their first steps. I

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Speaker 1: cannot tell you the number of women who I've set

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Speaker 1: across from who are really stressed because they have a

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Speaker 1: work event that they need to travel for and they

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Speaker 1: know that as soon as that flight takes off, their

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Speaker 1: child who is about a year old, is going to

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Speaker 1: start walking and it will have meant that they were

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Speaker 1: the worst mother on the planet. Now, this is despite

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Speaker 1: the fact that there's not one woman who could tell

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Speaker 1: me that she remembers who was there when she took

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Speaker 1: her first steps. Yet this is apparently a really important

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Speaker 1: moment as occasion in life of a child that if

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Speaker 1: you missed, means you're you're really terrible. My drop the

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Speaker 1: ball journey was more about me questioning why it is

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Speaker 1: all of these things are on my job description to

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Speaker 1: begin with, and how I can get really clear about

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Speaker 1: what matters most to me and what my highest and

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Speaker 1: best use is in fulfilling them, so that I can

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Speaker 1: redefine what that job description is altogether. And when you

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Speaker 1: have agency over what it means for you to be

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Speaker 1: a good mom, or what it means for you to

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Speaker 1: be a good student or a good work or any

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Speaker 1: of the roles that you play, then you can curate

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Speaker 1: your life in such a way that it is possible

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Speaker 1: to be an extraordinary mother and a wonderful professional and

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Speaker 1: an amazing wife and sister all at the same time.

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Speaker 1: It's just that it's very difficult when we're living default mechanisms,

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Speaker 1: default molds that tell us who we should be and

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Speaker 1: what we should be. And so that's really, to me,

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Speaker 1: at the heart of dropping the ball, it's dropping these

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Speaker 1: unrealistic expectations about who we're supposed to be. To begin with, Tiffany,

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Speaker 1: I love that. So we're vigorously nodding our heads over

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Speaker 1: here at what you have to say. I just have

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Speaker 1: to say, Um, your anecdote about the kid taking up

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Speaker 1: her steps reminds me so much. I have a friend

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Speaker 1: who works in a daycare with very young children, and

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Speaker 1: she has a young child herself, and the other daycare

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Speaker 1: workers have this kind of coded way of talking to

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Speaker 1: the moms who leave their kids there when their kids

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Speaker 1: start walking. So if the mom comes, I'll say, is

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Speaker 1: your kid taking steps at home? And that's sort of

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Speaker 1: a coded way of being like, your kid has taken

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Speaker 1: it's his first steps. You weren't here for it, but

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Speaker 1: it's not a big deal. You don't need to make

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Speaker 1: it you know, a big thing because it happens so often,

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Speaker 1: and if you frame it as guess what you missed today?

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Speaker 1: You missed your kid taking his first steps and you

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Speaker 1: were at a business meeting, you horrible mom, the mom

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Speaker 1: that's awful. And they've actually honed this way of talking

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Speaker 1: about it, in this coded term that says, hey, it's

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Speaker 1: actually but how ben it isn't that big of a deal.

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Speaker 1: Just so you know, you know your kid is taking

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Speaker 1: steps here, but you're not a bad mom because you

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Speaker 1: weren't here for it. That's beautiful, it really is. I'm

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Speaker 1: I was like tearing up over here as the mom

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Speaker 1: of a four legged fur baby. I'm like, I already

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Speaker 1: have internalized the guilt that comes with this idea, this

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Speaker 1: ambiguous sense of missing out, And that is so connected,

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Speaker 1: I think to what you were saying about role definition,

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Speaker 1: because it is a very generalized kind of anxiety that

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Speaker 1: that that comes with roll overload or role conflict. When

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Speaker 1: you are unsure about what parts of being a good

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Speaker 1: mom are important to you, it just leaves you feeling

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Speaker 1: like you're constantly digging in quicksand tiffany Where do you

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Speaker 1: think those roles come from? Do you think we internalized

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Speaker 1: messages in society, or we get handed these roles from

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Speaker 1: sort of the women who came before us. Oh all

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Speaker 1: of it, and and and we get them, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: when we were growing up, whichever women we modeled ourselves after.

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Speaker 1: I personally modeled a lot of my behavior after my mother,

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Speaker 1: who remember, as I you know, started off shared, um,

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Speaker 1: didn't work outside of the home. She worked inside of

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Speaker 1: the home. I should also add that she did not

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Speaker 1: have a smartphone, she did not have email, she did

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Speaker 1: not have to nearly a lot of the pressures. And

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Speaker 1: yet I still expected my home to look as spotless

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Speaker 1: as the home that I grew up in. And so

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Speaker 1: we certainly get them from there. For me. I got

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Speaker 1: them also for women in the church, because I grew

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Speaker 1: up in the church. We get them from popular culture.

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Speaker 1: I grew up on The Cosby Show, which was like

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Speaker 1: the Claire Huxtable, meaning that I was going to have

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Speaker 1: perfectly feathered hair, had perfect makeup, and my house was

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Speaker 1: always going to be clean, and I would have five

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Speaker 1: perfectly well behaved children who were all college bound. And

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Speaker 1: in the second season of my life, I would make

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Speaker 1: partner at a law firm, which is kind of ridiculous

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Speaker 1: when you think about it, but of course as an

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Speaker 1: adolescent growing up, I did have those visions. It comes

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Speaker 1: from billboards telling us you know who we should be.

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Speaker 1: Everyone can repeat, you know, the phrase choosing moms, choose jif.

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Speaker 1: So we're constantly told you know who we should be

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Speaker 1: and what we should be, and I think that that

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Speaker 1: is an important part. Certainly, it was a difficult part

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Speaker 1: for me because I always thought of myself as being

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Speaker 1: very ambitious, very modern, very much in the change in

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Speaker 1: the driver's seat of my own life. So to come

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Speaker 1: to a point where it was very clear to me

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Speaker 1: that what I thought were choices weren't actually choices. They

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Speaker 1: were just default norms and expectations that I was living

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Speaker 1: out That literally, I was living someone else's story was

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Speaker 1: a pretty daunting, overwhelming and humbling realization. But it also

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Speaker 1: gave me the agency and the power to learn how

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Speaker 1: to write my own story and how to live that instead.

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Speaker 1: Was there a moment for you where that became very

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Speaker 1: clear or was it just an over a certain amount

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Speaker 1: of time, or was there a crystallizing time or you

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Speaker 1: were like, man, I am I'm living someone else's version

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Speaker 1: of what it means to be a good mom. Well,

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Speaker 1: there were certainly moments when I felt so overwhelmed that

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Speaker 1: I knew something had to change, that the status quo

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Speaker 1: was not sufficient. One of those moments was my first

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Speaker 1: day back after my first maternity leave. I left that

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Speaker 1: day really excited about my new job. I felt that

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Speaker 1: I was going to be this powerhouse, you know, working

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Speaker 1: mommy that had it all and did it all. And

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Speaker 1: I had negotiated for a place to pump milk at

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Speaker 1: the office, so I just thought everything was all sick.

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Speaker 1: But the day was such a whirlwind that I ended

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Speaker 1: up going from meeting to meeting on that first day

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Speaker 1: back and honestly forgetting to pump milk until my breast

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Speaker 1: was so engorged that milk was like seeping, you know,

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Speaker 1: through my blouse into my jacket, and long story short,

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Speaker 1: I ended up having to express milk into a toilet

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Speaker 1: um and just was on a bathroom floor on the

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Speaker 1: first day back of my maternity leave, literally a hot,

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Speaker 1: milk and teary mess. And that day was just kind

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Speaker 1: of a daunting day of realizing, wait a minute, if

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Speaker 1: I can't I think to do something as simple as

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Speaker 1: pump milk for my baby, what are the other things

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Speaker 1: now that are going to fall through the cracks? How

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Speaker 1: am I going to manage all of this? And why

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Speaker 1: isn't it that when my husband went on his first

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Speaker 1: day back after we had you know, after he also

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Speaker 1: had had a child, that he didn't have the same

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Speaker 1: kind of pressure. So I had a lot of pressure

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Speaker 1: points and a lot of feelings of overwhelming That caused

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Speaker 1: me to come to a place where I realized, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to have to do something about this. And it's

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Speaker 1: like my parents taught me, if you want something that

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Speaker 1: you've never had before, you're going to have to do

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Speaker 1: something that you've never done before in order to achieve

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Speaker 1: it or publish it. So what am I going to

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Speaker 1: do that's different in order to really manage this stress?

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Speaker 1: That is so real? I know, I'm like, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you must have just caught me on a very stressed

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Speaker 1: out day because I'm like so identifying with the that

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Speaker 1: feeling of oh man, this is too much, this is

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Speaker 1: not going to work, and that you know, something has

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Speaker 1: gotta give, like something like this can't go on forever.

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Speaker 1: Something's gotta change for this to work. It's not sustainable.

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Speaker 1: But it's so easy to internalize that as a personal failure, right,

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Speaker 1: instead of to externalize it and say, Okay, what do

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Speaker 1: I need to do differently, which is how you just

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Speaker 1: framed it, Tiffany, which is already relieving me stress because

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Speaker 1: it's not you. It's like, Okay, what am I going

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Speaker 1: to do? And I think to your point about having

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Speaker 1: it be an external thing, just like Tiffany was saying

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Speaker 1: this idea that we get these signals of what it

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Speaker 1: looks like to be crushing it, whether it's from our

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Speaker 1: own mom, from the church, from you know, moms on TV,

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Speaker 1: whatever it is, and that we need to understand that

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Speaker 1: no one can do that. This is that's not always

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Speaker 1: realistic or attainable, and that if we hold ourselves up

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Speaker 1: to this the standard, we're setting ourselves up for failure

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Speaker 1: and overwork and burnout and roll conflict at all of that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I wonder if it's the burden is extra for

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Speaker 1: women of color. You mentioned the Cosby Show, which I

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Speaker 1: think was such an illuminating moment of in pop culture

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Speaker 1: of the new black elite, almost right like black excellence

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Speaker 1: on the small screen, which inspired a lot of Americans.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder if that extra pressure of having to

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Speaker 1: prove a stereotype wrong, or to live up to high

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Speaker 1: expectations and show that you can, you know, be twice

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Speaker 1: as good in this world, even if the world won't

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Speaker 1: always appreciate you and it isn't a fair and just

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Speaker 1: in perfectly equitable place. Do you feel like for working

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Speaker 1: moms of color, and particular Tiffany, that this is an

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Speaker 1: added burden. I would say that for me it was

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Speaker 1: um for a couple of different reasons. One is that

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Speaker 1: I was racially socialized, meaning that my parents did not

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Speaker 1: pretend or believe in a color blind world. They told

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Speaker 1: me that I was black. They told me that because

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Speaker 1: I was black, people were going to perceive me in

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Speaker 1: a certain way. They did tell me that I would

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Speaker 1: have to work really hard in order to overcome those perceptions.

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Speaker 1: They made it very clear that those perceptions weren't true.

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Speaker 1: They told me every day that I was smart, and

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Speaker 1: then I was beautiful, and that I was loved. But

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Speaker 1: my consciousness around my racial identity did um serve as

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Speaker 1: a motivation, and that, you know, I felt an enormous

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Speaker 1: sense of responsibility because I saw myself in this context

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Speaker 1: of history and people who would come before me. So

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Speaker 1: there's a sense of gratitude, but there's also a sense

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Speaker 1: of if I mess up, it's going to be a

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Speaker 1: ding on the entire Black race. And that might seem

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Speaker 1: a bit dramatic, but that's actually how I felt, in

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Speaker 1: some ways still feel about failure. And so yes, there's

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Speaker 1: this added pressure to do well and to be well

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Speaker 1: and to perform because one, there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who were depending on you, but also because you

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Speaker 1: represent something that that means a lot. So being communally

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Speaker 1: minded does have its added pressures, and I imagine that

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Speaker 1: there are other cultures in that that also have that experience.

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Speaker 1: I could not identify with that more as a black woman.

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Speaker 1: You know, I watched my mom and my dad's mom

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Speaker 1: and my aunt's all be these strong Black women who

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Speaker 1: I feel like often felt like they had to carry

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Speaker 1: on these intense burdens, mostly silently. That as black women,

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Speaker 1: there's this stereotype that you have to be superwoman and

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Speaker 1: do it all. They've actually done academic research on this.

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Speaker 1: We found a study from University of North Carolina that

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Speaker 1: actually indicates that black women have more physical symptoms of

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Speaker 1: stress associated with this idea being superwoman, that they have

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Speaker 1: to carry all these mental and emotional and sometimes physical

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Speaker 1: burdens and not really talk about it, and they feel

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Speaker 1: like we can't actually, you know, drop the ball. We don't.

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Speaker 1: We don't feel like we necessarily have that ability, and

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Speaker 1: we are suffering a lot of time. It's because no

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Speaker 1: one can be superwoman all the time. Even if you're

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Speaker 1: my mom, who seems like she can do everything and

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Speaker 1: you know, never dropped the ball. Ever, no one can

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Speaker 1: do it all the time. And I think this idea

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Speaker 1: that as people of color, we often do feel like

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Speaker 1: we have this added burden of being perfect and killing

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Speaker 1: it all the time because we have to make up

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Speaker 1: for the fact that our ancestors before us work so

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Speaker 1: hard and didn't have the advantages that we have. And

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Speaker 1: it's just it's just a lot. It is a lot,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's really important that we allow young women,

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Speaker 1: particularly young women of color, to see us as human.

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Speaker 1: I had an experience months ago. I had signed my

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Speaker 1: daughter up she's eight years old, for a girl's leadership program.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that I love about girls

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Speaker 1: Leadership is that it requires that a caregiver, ideally a parent,

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Speaker 1: attend the program with them. And so during one of

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Speaker 1: the sessions, my daughter overheard me share in one of

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Speaker 1: the groups that I had once felt really sad because

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Speaker 1: I had been left out of a friendship group. And

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Speaker 1: later she asked me about it because she was surprised

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Speaker 1: that I had ever felt sad for being left out

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Speaker 1: of a friendship group. And I said, and she asked

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Speaker 1: me if it had happened when I was a little girl,

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Speaker 1: and I said, no, honey, it actually happened recently. But

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Speaker 1: I felt sad that I was left out of a group.

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Speaker 1: And she said, well, I just don't believe you. And

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Speaker 1: I said, well, why don't you believe me? And she says, Mommy,

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Speaker 1: when I'm left out of a friendship group, I feel

432
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 1: so sad that it makes me cry. She says, but

433
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,120
Speaker 1: I've never seen you cry ever. And it really took

434
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: me back, you know, by surprise, because certainly in the

435
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 1: past eight years I have cried on more than occasion.

436
00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: Realized in her communicating that that my children and had

437
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 1: never seen me cry. And I think it's because if

438
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: I felt tears coming on, I would likely excuse myself

439
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: from being in the room with them to go into

440
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 1: another room to cry. Maybe I would prefer to protect

441
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 1: them from whatever was happening in my adult life or world,

442
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: so they wouldn't have to worry. But I recognized in

443
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: that moment that I was doing my daughter a disservice

444
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: that if my daughter didn't see in real practical terms,

445
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: that mommy also struggles, that mommy has a bat that

446
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 1: has a hard time, that mommy cries, that she would

447
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: likely grow up with the same sense that you're talking about,

448
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: that she's got a mommy who has it all and

449
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: does it at all and it's perfect, and that one

450
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: day this child is going to need my book drop

451
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: the ball. Yes, that's so real. I mean this. I

452
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: I probably have never seen my mom cry. I've never

453
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: My mom has never illustrated anything other than unflappable poise,

454
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 1: and it's only ever demonstrated like crushing it and killing it.

455
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: And I don't think I've ever seen my own mom.

456
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,959
Speaker 1: Isn't there sort of this true hope around watching like

457
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 1: seeing your own mother cry makes people freak out right,

458
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 1: like no, like, don't cry mom, what's the matter mom?

459
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 1: Everyone wants to like instantly have this really panicked freak

460
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: out over it, And we actually at bossed up came

461
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: up with a norm at our in person programs which

462
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: we call talk through the tears, which is to say

463
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: we've been so socialized, especially as women, although I would

464
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: say as men even more so, to stop talking and

465
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: work on suppressing your own tears. If God forbid, you

466
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 1: should tear up in public. And that has taught us,

467
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 1: trained us to excuse ourselves, to apologize. I'm so sorry,

468
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 1: I need a minute. I can't believe I'm being so

469
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: emotionally here, as I may or may out have already

470
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: said once today because I had a very rough day

471
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: of travel today as I cried in front of a

472
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: couple of t s a Asians about not having the

473
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: right boarding past at the right time. And we all

474
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: we always say at bossed up like talk through the tears,

475
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 1: like no one's gonna make you apologize for crying. We

476
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: want to see, we want to hear what you have

477
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: to say, So don't let the onset of tears make

478
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: you feel like you need to shut down and shut up.

479
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 1: And it goes back to what you were just saying

480
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: to me, which is allowing yourself to be seen as

481
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: the flawed, imperfect, and sometimes hurt human being that we

482
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: all can be, can actually enable others to feel permission

483
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: to do the same. I love that so much. Um.

484
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: One of my favorite reality TV characters Kelly Cotrone. You

485
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 1: ever watched The Hill. The name of her autobiography is

486
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: called if you have to Cry, Go outside. Oh no, Yeah,

487
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: It's like I remember thinking that, like tough girls, girls

488
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: who can really hack it, you know, they don't cry.

489
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: There's no crying in baseball. Like that was something that

490
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: I definitely internalized. So if I if I were to cry,

491
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: even to like a coworker that I'm close with, it

492
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: would be all apologies would be oh my god, I'm

493
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: so sorry. I'm so sorry that you're seeing this as

494
00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: if I was doing something totally inappropriate. Yeah, well, I

495
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: have to say today my two lovely t s A

496
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 1: agents who witnessed Emily Aries publicly crowing in an airport,

497
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 1: we're so kind and saying like it's okay, you're having

498
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 1: a bad days to cry in public. All right, we're

499
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break. Tiffany, hang on, we'll be

500
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: right back. We are excited to continue this conversation with

501
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: Tiffany Doufu, author of Drop the Ball, and when we

502
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: come back, I want to break down what that really means,

503
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: What it means to drop the ball, and we're back, Tiffany.

504
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 1: We are so so fortunate to have you joining us

505
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: on the podcast today, and I want to get into

506
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: some of these solutions. So we talked about the challenges

507
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: that come with role overload, role conflict, or a total

508
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: lack of role definition, which, as you said at the

509
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: top of the podcast, can leave women, especially and working mothers,

510
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: feeling this ambiguous sense of getting someone down or guilt

511
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: or the stress that comes with that. So you've written

512
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: an entire book about how to proactively prioritize, how to

513
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: really define the roles for ourselves instead of becoming sort

514
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 1: of victims to societal pressures and the roles we've internalized elsewhere.

515
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: Can you tell us what it really means to drop

516
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: the ball? Sure, I can tell you what it means

517
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 1: for me. I mean, drop the Ball is largely a

518
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 1: memoir and a romantic comedy. Um. I respect women way

519
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: too much to tell them what to do, but certainly

520
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: if my story can support women in their journey, I

521
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: put it all out onto the table. I think that

522
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: the first step to dropping the ball is really getting

523
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: clear about what matters most to us as opposed to

524
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: what matters to other people, And in my drop the

525
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: Ball journey, it became very clear that what mattered most

526
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: to me was advancing women and girls surprise surprise, um,

527
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: really nurturing a healthy relationship if my partner with my husband,

528
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: and raising conscious global citizens. What matters most to you

529
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: is usually the first question that I ask women when

530
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: I connect with them. Most of the time, we start

531
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: by rattling off areas of our life. So all my

532
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: career is important, my family is important, my dog is important.

533
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: But what I really try to coach women toward is

534
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: achieving clarity about what you hope to achieve in relationship

535
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: to these areas of your life, because it's really that

536
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: starting point that you need in order to do the

537
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: second step, which is really getting clear about your highest

538
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: and best use in achieving what matters most to you.

539
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: So I used to be someone who was kind of

540
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: obsessed with just making a bunch of lists, and I

541
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: would have them organized via all kinds of different apps,

542
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: until I got to a point where it was clear

543
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: to me that what you do is far less important

544
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: than the difference you make. So I had to move

545
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: from constantly making lists and just trying to check them

546
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: off to really figuring out and when I talk about

547
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: my highest and best use, what are the things that

548
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: I can do really well with very little effort, probably

549
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,719
Speaker 1: because I've done them a lot, combined with what are

550
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: the things that only I can do? So, for example,

551
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: as a mother, because that's what we're talking about here,

552
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: one of the things that I do really well with

553
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: very little effort is helping other people to achieve clarity

554
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: through guidance and encouragement. Some people would say, you just

555
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: make a good coach. One of the things that only

556
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: I can do in relationship to my kids is instill

557
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: values in them. It's very hard to outsource the installation

558
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: of values in people, and so my highest and best

559
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: use in raising conscious global citizens is engaging my kids

560
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: in meaningful conversations each and every day. What kind of

561
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: day did you create for yourself today? Who did you

562
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: laugh with today? If and Aly in spaceship came down

563
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: and abducted someone from your school today, who would they

564
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: have abducted? Why would they have abducted that person? And

565
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: in that way I can help my kids develop a

566
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: positive relationship with themselves, with their teachers, their peers, their community.

567
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: Hopefully the world now does that mean that there wasn't

568
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: some Halloween outfit I was supposed to have made, you know,

569
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: for them, or there wasn't something else that was due. Sure,

570
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: but I know that I can drop the ball on

571
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: any one of those things. Those are not on my

572
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: good mom job description, and that I'm an extraordinary mother

573
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: if no matter where I am in the world, on

574
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: my travels, over Skype or FaceTime or Google hang out,

575
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: I have this meaningful conversation with my child. So and

576
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: for every area of our lives, I think it's really

577
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: important that we're really clear about what should we be

578
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: doing so that when other people, because that's really the challenge,

579
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: when other people impose their behaviors onto our values, you

580
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: can say, actually, I know that from your perspect did

581
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: me attending my daughter's piano lesson is something that I

582
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: should be doing as a good mom, But I've actually

583
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: decided that that behavior isn't on my job description. So

584
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna engage in the meaningful conversations. And

585
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: I think the third step to dropping the ball is

586
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: really about how you engage other people in your leadership journey.

587
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: You know, we often act as if our leadership journey

588
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: as a solo endeavor, but really it's a team sport.

589
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: And you know, there are a lot of people in

590
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: our lives who want us to create lives we're passionate about,

591
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: who really do love us, but we often suck at

592
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: communicating effectively with them. And so I personally took a

593
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: big page from my effectiveness as a communicator at work

594
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: and started bringing some of those skills home in order

595
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: to really meaningfully engage people in ways that I hadn't before.

596
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Tiffany, I know I've been talking about my

597
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: mom a lot. Maybe that's because I'm not a parent myself,

598
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: but something you just said just reminded me of this

599
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: powerful thing from my my childhood. So my mom, I

600
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: think i've mentioned total badass doctor, a top medicine while

601
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: I was growing up, seemingly did it all, but we

602
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,479
Speaker 1: know that's not you know, looks can be deceiving, but um,

603
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: she was a working mom, and she worked a lot.

604
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: She she cared so much about her her job. When

605
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: I was in school, I remember a lot of the

606
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: kids always had these meticulously packed school lunches, and I

607
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: would sit at lunchtime and they would open their lunch

608
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: box and it would be like crinkle cut carrots and

609
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: just very lovingly like, oh, my mom put a note

610
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: on my napkin every day and things like that. And

611
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: I always had to buy hot lunch, and so people

612
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 1: will be like, oh, you know hot lunch, Like your

613
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: mom doesn't make your lunch, and I would be like, no,

614
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: she doesn't. And I remember, as a kid feeling like

615
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: I was supposed to feel sad about that. But what

616
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: my classmates didn't see is that almost every single day

617
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: when I came home, my mom would make dinner and

618
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: I would sit on the kitchen counter and like talk

619
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: about my day with her, and she would just ask

620
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: me questions about my day. And so for me, it

621
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: was clear that for her, maybe she wasn't the kind

622
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: of mom who could be cutting up carrots and writing

623
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: notes on a on a napkin every day for lunch,

624
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: but that for her, what was important for her kid

625
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: was to make dinner and have that special time together.

626
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: Even if nobody else in the school saw that. And

627
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: so even if my classmates thought like, oh, gee, your

628
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: mom doesn't make you a meticulously packed lunch every day,

629
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: what is she a bad mom? My mom knew I

630
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: can my kid can buy a lunch and it's fine.

631
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: But my kid can't do is have this special time

632
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: with her mom, right, And I said, the operative word

633
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 1: in your narrative is that it wasn't that she couldn't

634
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: make you a lunch. It's that she chose not to

635
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: make you a lunch because there were other things that

636
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: she chose to do with her time that amounted to

637
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: you being the fabulous person that you are now see her.

638
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: That was like just what I needed to hear. You're

639
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: like mothering us in real time on this podcast. Can

640
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,399
Speaker 1: you call us every night and ask that those same

641
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: questions kid space spaceship one in particular, I think would

642
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: be a good question. Um No, I I love that,

643
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: and I that triggers some issues for me around class,

644
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: to be quite honest, Bridget, because your example reminded me

645
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: of how jealous I was of the kids who got

646
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: to buy a hot lunch. What yeah, Oh, you're kidding me. I.

647
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: I was the kid with the PBNJ every day, and

648
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: I took for granted the labor that went into my

649
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: mother making my lunches, or my lovely leadership training that

650
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: was making my own damn lunch for most of my

651
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: school years, and I just wonder, like, what does it

652
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: look like to drop the ball when you don't have

653
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: the financial resources to outsource or to pay for school

654
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: lunch every day? You know, what does it really mean

655
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 1: in this world where And we're going to dive into

656
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: in a future episode about roll overload how our government

657
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: could maybe make this a little easier on all of us.

658
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: But what does it look like to drop the ball

659
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: when you can't financially outsource? Yeah, I think I think

660
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: that's a great question, and it's one of the biggest

661
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: reasons why I began to drop the ball narrative in

662
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: the book, UM, going back to a time in my

663
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: own life, UM, and my family's life when we did

664
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: not have the monetary resources to just outsource domestic labor.

665
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 1: That's the band aid that a lot of professional families

666
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: engage in. But we couldn't do that. And that's part

667
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: of the reason why I don't start this drop the

668
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: Ball narrative or even philosophy with you shouldn't do specifically this,

669
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 1: or you shouldn't do specifically that. I started with what's

670
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 1: important to you? And how can you really redefine what

671
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: it means to be a good anything, you know. I um,

672
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: early in my career had a sitter who in her

673
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: journey had to at one point leave her kids um

674
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: on an island and come to the US as an

675
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: immigrant on her own, and the hopes of earning enough

676
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: money to eventually send for her kids. So there was,

677
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 1: you know, in the good mom job description, you know,

678
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: there's this line around just being physically present. It's like

679
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: this antipotent you know, pressure that if you're not physically there,

680
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: you're not a good mom. And just in thinking about

681
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: her story and her narrative, I mean, I don't think

682
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 1: there's anyone who would say that a mother who's had

683
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: to immigrant, you know, immigrant to the country and is

684
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: doing the best that she can't earning money and sending

685
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: it back home and the hopes of bringing her kids

686
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 1: to the US to lead a better life, that she's

687
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: a terrible mother. In fact, we would say that she's

688
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: probably a really good mother and making an enormous sacrifice,

689
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: you know, for her kids. So, you know, I think

690
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: that it's really important for us to have the flexibility

691
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: and the power to be able to tell the stories

692
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: that serve us as opposed to the stories that serve

693
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: other people. About who we are and about you know,

694
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: what we can do, and quite frankly, a lot of

695
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: the moms who I interact with, who come from lower

696
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 1: socio economic backgrounds, who are single moms, for example, have

697
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 1: a lot less luxury to obsess over some of these issues.

698
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: Um like you, you privileged women need to get over

699
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: it and get on with it. Yeah, do you ever

700
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: you know what I'm thinking? Though from our perspective, we're

701
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: basically daughters here a musing on a podcast called stuff

702
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You talking about this issue? Do you

703
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: ever worry that what you choose as being most important

704
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: to you about your your own job description as mom?

705
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 1: Someday your kids are going to be on a podcast

706
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: saying my mom chose the wrong thing, you know, Like,

707
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 1: so it doesn't align with how do you navigate that?

708
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: How do you feel? Absolutely not? You know. A few

709
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: years ago, I was talking to my sister. I'm the

710
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: oldest of four girls, and my sister that I was

711
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: speaking to in this case is the one right under me.

712
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: So we're only seventy months apart, and we were having

713
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: a conversation about our mom and I should share for

714
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: the purposes of the story that were estranged from our mom.

715
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: I hate that word, but it's the best word to

716
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: describe our relationship with her. And my sister was really

717
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: angry with her mom about something that she had done.

718
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you've ever been in a

719
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: conversation with someone who's upset or frustrated and they want

720
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: to enroll you in their frustration or in their anger. Um.

721
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: But I wasn't really going there the way that she

722
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 1: needed me to. But because she's my sister, she knows

723
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: how to push my buttons, and so she started saying

724
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 1: things like, I don't know why you're not so angry

725
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 1: with mom. You know, your children don't even know their grandmother.

726
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: She's never sent them a Christmas gift, she's never sent

727
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: them a Birthday gift. And because she's my sister, like,

728
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: I almost wanted to burst out in tears, But what

729
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: I said to her was Trinity, that's my little sister's name.

730
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: I said, That's not the story that I tell about

731
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: our mom. The story that I tell is that from

732
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 1: the time she found out she was pregnant with me

733
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: until I was sixteen years old, she gave me everything

734
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: on other could possibly give a child in order to

735
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: set her off on the right path. Every day she

736
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: told me that I was smart and I was beautiful,

737
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: and that was loved. And as a result of that

738
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: early conditioning, I feel that I'm a confident, empowered woman.

739
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: And I feel that the greatest gift that she gives

740
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: her grandchildren is having a mom who understands why she's

741
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: on the planet and has a very clear passion and purpose.

742
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: And that that's my story. And my sister, of course goes,

743
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: oh my god, you're so pollyannish. But my my Tiffany's

744
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: epiphany about that moment had then to do with my

745
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: own children, because it occurred to me that here, my

746
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: sister and I are two adult women who had virtually

747
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: the same childhood experience. I mean, our mom like made

748
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: us the same fried chicken and collared greams on Sunday.

749
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: She corn wrote our hair in the same direction. Maybe

750
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,919
Speaker 1: there were different colored beads, but it was the same

751
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: church dress. And yet as adult women, we have two

752
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: very different stories that we tell, and that likely to

753
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 1: be the future with my children. My son could very

754
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: well grow up to say, I am a feminist man.

755
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,919
Speaker 1: I have this amazing, incredible wife who, you know, lived

756
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: as her passion and her purpose. Because my mom was

757
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: this amazing leader who really cared about making a difference

758
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: in the world, and she was such a great role

759
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,919
Speaker 1: model for me. My daughter could grow up and say,

760
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: I have a lot of difficult times with relationships because

761
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 1: my mother's life's work was advancing women and girls. But

762
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: I was the one little girl she never paid enough

763
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 1: attention to. She was writing books, she was always on

764
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: planes and trains and automobiles, really living her passion and

765
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: her purpose, but not really spending time with me and

766
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: finding out what my passion and a purpose was. And

767
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: so now I have a difficult time because my mother,

768
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: you know, didn't spend enough time with me. She always

769
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: talked about how her mother corn wrote her hair. My

770
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: mom didn't even know how to corn role. She said

771
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: to the Okay, now, both of those stories that my

772
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,439
Speaker 1: children might tell wouldn't be true. Neither one of those

773
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: stories would have anything to do with me. Okay, I

774
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: don't have control over my children's future stories. More importantly,

775
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: I don't have a right to them. And so no,

776
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: I'm not concerned that the choices or the decisions that

777
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: I'm making now are going to impact my children's future

778
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: stories because right now, in this moment, every single day,

779
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: I'm just doing the best I can. And you want

780
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: to know something, I've never met a woman who wasn't

781
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 1: doing the best that she could every single day to

782
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 1: do right by herself, her family, and her community. I

783
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: think that's so perfect, right, this idea of stories, the

784
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: stories that we tell ourselves about who we are, the

785
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: stories that we tell ourselves about others, and how how

786
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: they can both sort of be true. But this version

787
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: that we choose to tell ourselves, that's what really can

788
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: have a lot of power. I think what what you

789
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: just said too is is that you have to be

790
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: okay with your choices, and that's probably what's going to

791
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: set your kids up for their best potential. Anyway. Like,

792
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: if you as a mother are making conscious choices that

793
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: you are happy with and are living up to the

794
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: role that you've defined for yourself, you're setting a role.

795
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: You're setting an example for your kids to do the same,

796
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: which I think is a really powerful way of thinking

797
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: about not conforming to what you think someone else wants

798
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: you to be in real time. Easier said than done.

799
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: I might add about we're gonna go to a quick

800
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: break for a quick word from our sponsors, but let's

801
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 1: keep this conversation going with Tiffany Doofu, author of dropped

802
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 1: the ball. After this quick break, and we're back, and

803
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: Bridget and I are nodding along here to the gospel

804
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: of Tiffany Doofu, who is laying it down for us

805
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: when it comes to being a working mother in today's

806
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: world and living up to the job description that you

807
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,919
Speaker 1: decide for what that role really means to you. Thank

808
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: so much for joining us, Tiffany, Thanks for having me

809
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: so Tiffany, something that I've kind of pulled that of

810
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: a few of the narratives that you've shared with us today,

811
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: is this idea of making the right choices for yourself

812
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: and not sort of falling in line with how society

813
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: or pop culture or whatever tells us we have to

814
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: be as moms as women. So my question is do

815
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: you ever deal with other parents or other people in

816
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: your orbit giving you, you know, questioning these choices, or

817
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: giving you shade or attitude saying oh, well, you didn't

818
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 1: think it was important to come to your your daughter's

819
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: piano recital because you thought it was more important to

820
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: do blah blah, blah. How can parents out there deal

821
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 1: with it when other parents judge them for these choices

822
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: that you're saying that we should all really be making

823
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: for ourselves. Yes, so do I experience this? Shore I

824
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: experienced this. Sometimes it's in very subtle ways that are

825
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 1: really unintentional, that are just um evidence or just evidence

826
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 1: of a society that isn't quite evolved. So, for example,

827
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 1: my one of the things that I've delegated with joy

828
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: to my husband is the management of my kids social calendar.

829
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: This is a task that often falls to women, but

830
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 1: that I've discovered should actually be managed by the person

831
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 1: who is the social butterfly in the relationship, and my

832
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: husband is a great job. The challenge, though, is that

833
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 1: people don't engage fathers. They engage mothers with kids and

834
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: their social calendars. For example, no one ever sends a

835
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: birthday party invitation to a child's father. They always send

836
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: it to the mom. And for me, that is just

837
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: a subtle reminder that in the globe, in the large,

838
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: you know, in the world, I'm the one who's expected

839
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: to be doing this task. So sometimes I commit what

840
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: I would call a little tiny act of defiance, which

841
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 1: is to forward the invitation back to the person and

842
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: to say something like, thank you so much for inviting

843
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: my daughter to the birthday party. Her father is her

844
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 1: calendar Maven, can you please email him at and then

845
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 1: I give his email address. Okay, then not you will

846
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: give other women permission as that. Oh my god, I

847
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 1: can't believe, like why did I only send it to

848
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: the moms? Why am I even planning the birthday party?

849
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: Like how are you getting to do that? Right? So

850
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: you can be disrupted in that way, Sometimes the pressure

851
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: is more overt um. You know. Someone will literally say, oh,

852
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: you know, all of the other moms are you know,

853
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: doing X, Y or z. Sometimes even my children will say, well,

854
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 1: you know, mom, all of the other moms are doing X,

855
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 1: Y or Z. And at any point in time I

856
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 1: might respond because I'm human, Depending up on the situation,

857
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,439
Speaker 1: sometimes I become really defensive to be honest, and I'd say, well,

858
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: is every mom trying to make a difference in the

859
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: world for women and girls? You know? Sometimes I might

860
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 1: respond with humor, you know, and I'll say to my kids,

861
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: I saw you showing your friends my YouTube channel. Don't

862
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: try to pretend like I am not the coolest momager.

863
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: School I love UM. I think that the biggest difference

864
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: for me is that once you drop the ball, meaning

865
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: once you release these unrealistic expectations of doing it all,

866
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: once you love yourself as imperfect, once you stop judging yourself,

867
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: it's nearly impossible to judge other people. So most of

868
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: the time, especially if it's a person who is a

869
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: stranger to me or someone who I don't know very well,

870
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: when they impose their expectations, like when my daughter's piano

871
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: teacher tells me that I should come to her piano

872
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: lessons because the other mothers do, I usually feel an

873
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: enormous amount of empathy for them, because what I'm clear

874
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: of is that they're still operating according to that job

875
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 1: description that they were handed, and I know that they

876
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: haven't gone through an intentional process usually of real really

877
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: getting clear about what matters most to them, but what

878
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 1: could potentially matter for other people. And so I usually

879
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: I'm just really gracious and I smile, and I don't

880
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: say anything unless I'm kind of forced to say something,

881
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: and then I might explain, while you know, I'm working

882
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 1: during the day to pay for the piano lessons, so

883
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,280
Speaker 1: that's why I'm not able to come. But I sometimes

884
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 1: I even try to avoid that and I just nod

885
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: and I smile, because not everyone's ready for the revolution.

886
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: I I love those examples, but they also infuriate me

887
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: right because they're so exclusionary and patronizing, frankly to men

888
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: and fathers, and not to mention same sex couples who

889
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 1: might not have a mom at home. So when that

890
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 1: that that lingo of all the other moms, I just

891
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: want to I want that to go away. I'd love

892
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 1: all the other moms as a phrase, to just retire

893
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: with shoulder pads. Perhaps you know what I mean. It's

894
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: just like it's so passe, and and if we really

895
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: want to empower all human beings period to reach our

896
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,280
Speaker 1: full potential and lead happy lives at home and at work,

897
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 1: we have to get out of those conditions, which, in

898
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: a very small example was I just made the big

899
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: adulting move of getting a membership at one of those

900
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 1: big box retailers like Costco. And the person who I

901
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 1: was getting this membership with it was me and my partner.

902
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: She could not fathom that he was going to be

903
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 1: the primary account holder. She was like, it should be

904
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 1: the person who's going to do the majority of the

905
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 1: shopping here more often, and because I'm on the road

906
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,760
Speaker 1: all the time, and because I'm not really into grocery

907
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: shopping at big box stores. That was Brad. That was

908
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: Brad the booze role. And she was just like, are

909
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: you sure? Like she almost didn't couldn't believe what I

910
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: was suggesting about how we divide up work. Well, takeany

911
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: Something that you mentioned is that your husband really does

912
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: a lot of the social calendar ing for your child.

913
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: I'm curious if you're comfortable sort of talking a bit

914
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: about what does your romantic relationship look like, how how

915
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 1: are the roles sort of divvied up, and how does

916
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: that how does that look like in your household? Well,

917
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: we implemented a tool many years ago that we call

918
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 1: a MEL. It's a management Excel list. We call it

919
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:09,959
Speaker 1: MAL for short, and it's kind of like a third

920
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: person in our marriage. So every once in a while

921
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: when balls literally do drop, will say, oh, we need

922
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: to have a conversation with MEL, and I'm like, go, no,

923
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 1: you need to have a conversation with mel um and

924
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: but our MEL is really important. It's basically an Excel

925
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 1: spreadsheet that lists everything that's necessary in order for our

926
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: home to function smoothly. And I mean every little thing

927
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: from people getting haircuts, to the car being maintenance, to

928
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 1: our taxes, two beds being made, to laundry being done,

929
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: grocery shopping, our Costco big box you know trip that

930
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 1: we make um every couple of weeks or so, to

931
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: watering the plants. And there are basically columns next to

932
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: each one. And my husband's got a column, I've got

933
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: a column. Now, each one of our kids has a column.

934
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: And what we do is we put x is underneath

935
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: people's names in order to kind of decide who should

936
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: do what. And it's a really incredible list for a

937
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 1: couple of reasons. One is that it's very obvious that

938
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: even with two adults and four children living in a

939
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: home and a number of x is underneath people's names,

940
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: that you still couldn't possibly do everything required in order

941
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:33,439
Speaker 1: for your home to function as smoothly as you would

942
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: like it to be inside of your mind. And so

943
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: it really gives all of us permission to just say,

944
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 1: you know what, some things are not going to get done.

945
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: And the most important column on the sheet is the No.

946
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: One column. It's where we put an x next to

947
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 1: what we all agree no one's going to do. So

948
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: the car is just going to be dirty for three months.

949
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: We're not going to actually fold the clothes. We're just

950
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: gonna pull clean socks out of the laundry then, and

951
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 1: it allows us to not develop a sense of resentment

952
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: because things aren't happening. But the other reason why that

953
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: Excel list and also that No. One column has become

954
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: very important for us is because when we do reach

955
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 1: points of overwhelm. There have been times, for example, when

956
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: my husband's traveled for long periods of time and out

957
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: of parts of the world and a neighbor or friend

958
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 1: or community members says, hey, do you need help with anything?

959
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: We always have our No. One column to look at

960
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 1: to say, oh, my gosh, our car is really dirty.

961
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: Do you think you could take it to get it washed?

962
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 1: Or I haven't really had time to do a costco run,

963
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 1: would you mind doing that for me? Or you know,

964
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 1: it would really be helpful if like someone came and

965
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 1: folded a load of laundry, because we actually are kind

966
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: of tired of just pulling the fox, you know, out

967
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,240
Speaker 1: of the laundry ben and because we have specific tasks

968
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 1: that we can assign to people. It's allowed us to

969
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 1: build a really robust village of support, and it's extended

970
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 1: our ecosystem. It turns out people want to help, and

971
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 1: when you actually give them something specific to do, it

972
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: just encourages them to help you even more. So. There

973
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: are lots of things about our relationships and in the

974
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: dynamic of our relationship and our friendship and where it

975
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: all began, but I think the most important tool for

976
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: us has been them out. I love that. I mean, listen,

977
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: when my dad was in the hospital, all my friends

978
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 1: were like, what can I do? What can I do?

979
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: What can I do? But that's almost another task. And

980
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: so if you're overwhelmed someone being like I want to

981
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:28,359
Speaker 1: help you, what can what can I do to help?

982
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 1: That's like, if you're overwhelmed, you can't even like think

983
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 1: to be like, oh I need the towels folded or

984
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 1: I need someone to make dinner or whatever. And so

985
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: having that system, it takes the emotional labor off of

986
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 1: the person who's in need exactly exactly, and really a

987
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 1: lot people do want to help, and it makes it

988
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 1: easier for you to help people help you and have

989
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: that ecosystem function efficiently. It really reminds me of what

990
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,399
Speaker 1: you mentioned briefly earlier on in the episode Tiffany, which

991
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,879
Speaker 1: was the experience of single mothers, especially Like, first of all,

992
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 1: nobody exists in without community. No, especially as parents. Like

993
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 1: the community that you create through your children's lives and

994
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 1: through the social uh structures that you begin to partake

995
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,399
Speaker 1: in as a parent or just as an active member

996
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: of a community. It seems so critically important, especially for

997
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: those who don't have a partner while they're while they're

998
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:27,399
Speaker 1: raising children, right, Like, it's just a reminder that none

999
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,760
Speaker 1: of us have to go it alone. And I wish

1000
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: we could see more of that instead of this tired

1001
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: old bologny narrative around the mommy wars, Like, I wish

1002
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 1: we could see more of a communal narrative. And I

1003
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: think we are seeing more community structures emerging, especially as

1004
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: millennials try to figure out this parenting thing and millennials

1005
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: are wading into those waters of what does it look

1006
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: like to be a member of a household nowadays? Do

1007
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 1: you feel like you've seen that sort of communal approach

1008
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:04,760
Speaker 1: as being instrumental in your life? Oh? Absolutely, I wouldn't

1009
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: be here without it. I mean, I'm literally the cumulative

1010
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 1: investment of a lot of other people, and that starts

1011
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: from culture. So you know, it's one of the benefits

1012
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,399
Speaker 1: of growing up in the black community, as I had

1013
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: multiple care givers. I had multiple people who could tell

1014
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 1: me what to do, um, and at that time could

1015
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: even want my behind, which I know we don't do anymore. UM,

1016
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: who could hold me accountable, that's a nicer way putting it.

1017
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: I loved that reframing of spankings. UM. So I certainly

1018
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 1: have this ethos in my mind, in my heart that

1019
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: children should be raised by villages. And I hope that

1020
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 1: as opposed to driving my kids crazy, which they in

1021
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: the future could say that it did, I hope that

1022
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 1: it actually has allowed them to be exposed to different

1023
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: points of view, different lenses, different perspectives. Because even in

1024
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: our own home, we have this philosophy that when in Rome,

1025
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 1: you do as the Romans do. So you know, when

1026
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: the kids are with me, for example, there is dancing

1027
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 1: on the sofa. You know, no one has to really

1028
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 1: eat all of their food. They just only have that

1029
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: one opportunity to eat, whereas you know, and there's like

1030
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 1: no ball throwing. But when their dad they like throw

1031
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: balls all the time. There's no dancing on the furniture,

1032
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: and they have to eat all of their food. And

1033
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: my kids know, when I'm with Mom, this is how

1034
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 1: it is. When I'm with Dad, this is how it is.

1035
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,760
Speaker 1: And I just I feel like we need more people

1036
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: in the world who can adapt and who can be

1037
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,439
Speaker 1: flexible to different environments and different experiences. So I hope

1038
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: that you know we're exposing our kids through all of

1039
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: the people that are in their village to different ways

1040
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 1: of thinking, and that we're increasing their sensitivity around diversity.

1041
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: But you know, I think that you're right. It's harder,

1042
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 1: certainly when you have less people at your disposal. But

1043
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: I think that it's really important for us to also

1044
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 1: keep in mind the narratives that we tell ourselves in

1045
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: order to potentially access things that we didn't think we're

1046
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: there before. I mean, if you had a suggested to

1047
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: me ten years ago that part of the key to

1048
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: me excelling professionally and living a life that I'm passionate

1049
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 1: about and not being overwhelmed and stressed every day was

1050
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 1: my husband doing some things around the house. I had

1051
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: a strong enough marriage that I would have said to

1052
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 1: you Oh, I think that's a great idea. I mean,

1053
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 1: he's just so amazing. But in my head I would

1054
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 1: have been thinking, oh, my gosh, these young girls, they

1055
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: are clearly not married. Otherwise they would know that husbands

1056
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 1: are useless, that that is just a terrible idea and

1057
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: that's never gonna work. So even though I've had a husband,

1058
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: right that you would think, oh, well, because she's married,

1059
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: she has it easier. In my own mind, in my

1060
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: own narrative, he was not a resource for me. And

1061
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 1: I think getting creative about who we have access to

1062
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: and who are resources are is really important. And one

1063
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 1: of the great examples of that to me was a

1064
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: couple of women that I interviewed for Dropped the Ball

1065
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: who were single moms. They were both divorced, They both

1066
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 1: had sons that were about the same age, and they

1067
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 1: decided to become all in partners by moving in together

1068
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: and they shared household expenses. They collaborated on child's care,

1069
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: and one of the funniest quips was that when either

1070
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 1: one of them would go out on a date, the

1071
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 1: one would say to the other, Okay, have fun, girl

1072
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 1: would don't go crazy and marry him, don't replace me.

1073
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,439
Speaker 1: They had this this really great, So I just thought

1074
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: it was a really creative way, um in a really

1075
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: meaningful way of them finding a resource and finding partnership

1076
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 1: in one another. Tiffany, this has been such a fascinating

1077
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: conversation and really like almost like a personally clarifying conversation.

1078
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: If I can be honest with you, where can our

1079
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: listeners find out more about what you're up to? And

1080
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 1: where can they access all your different tool that are

1081
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: out there? Oh, they can go to Tiffany do food

1082
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 1: dot com. And thank you so much for your support

1083
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: and for having me absolutely, I mean, you are the

1084
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: coolest mom on YouTube in the block, right, yeah, Tiffany.

1085
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 1: If your kids are listening to this, yeah, I hope

1086
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 1: you know your mom is a cool mom. Yeah, a

1087
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 1: regular mom. She's got Tiffany's epiphany's. You gotta check them out.

1088
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan. Well, thank you so much. I

1089
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 1: know our listeners are going to have a million follow

1090
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: up questions for you, and so listeners, sminty listeners, we

1091
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: really want to hear from you. Let's keep this conversation going.

1092
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 1: Hit us up on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Ask

1093
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: your questions about working motherhood. Roll overload and how you

1094
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: define what it means to be a good mom on

1095
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 1: Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told You, And as always,

1096
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: we love getting your emails at mom's stuff at how

1097
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:56,440
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Thanks so much again for joining us, Tiffany,

1098
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,080
Speaker 1: and we can't wait to keep this conversation going. He

1099
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: stop