1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: we discussed child abuse and this content may be difficult 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: for some listeners. If you, or anyone you know is 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go 5 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: to munchausensupport dot com to connect with professionals who can help. 6 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 2: There is a family in Renton that I want to 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 2: introduce you to. Mom Sophie went on an inspiring trip 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 2: to Zambia and her college year. She's since adopted two girls. 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: One of them has an incredibly rare disorder. Doctors say 10 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 2: it's a one in a million chance. 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: The audio you just heard is from a news story 12 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: that aired on King five television back in May of 13 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. This story wasn't on my radar, but I 14 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: had a lot going on back then. I had just 15 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: had a baby and had a new book coming out, 16 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: and this was around the time that Munchausen Biproxy was 17 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: really entering my work life. The month that this story aired, 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: I'd done my very first interview about my own family 19 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: story for Vanity Fair, and this was followed by an 20 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: appearance on a local station about my third novel, We 21 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: Came Here to Forget. This was all taking place amid 22 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: the second investigation into my sister for munchause in biproxy 23 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: abuse of her children. By the middle of that summer, 24 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: the courts would return my sister's children to her, and 25 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: a few months after that, the prosecuting attorney would make 26 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: the decision not to file charges against my sister, Megan Carter, 27 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: despite the horrifying and voluminous evidence against her. But back 28 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: to Sophie in general, seeing stories about sick kids in 29 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: the news is upsetting for a bunch of reasons. 30 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: So family friends are banding together. They're trying to raise money, 31 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 2: and this is something that is no little ask. We're 32 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: talking about like sixty thousand dollars for a vehicle for them, 33 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 2: So we just wanted to put their positive energy out there. 34 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: Of course, there are the particular fears and questions that 35 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: I bring to it, given my experien with my sister. 36 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: Is this mom telling the truth? What if this child 37 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,639 Speaker 1: isn't a victim of a rare disease but a victim 38 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: of the person purporting to care for them, even when 39 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: there are no red flags for abuse, which is mostly 40 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: the case. These stories are pretty dystopian because they illuminate 41 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: a tragic feeling of our country's healthcare system, the horrible 42 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 1: reality that families, many of whom I'm sure would prefer 43 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: to keep their children's health private, are forced into a 44 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: situation where they have to perform their trauma publicly in 45 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: the hopes that kind strangers might step in to relieve 46 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: the skyrocketing medical bills that could otherwise bankrupt their family. So, 47 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: while I usually avoid these types of stories in my 48 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: day to day life, once I did see this news 49 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: report right away, I noticed that Sophie was positioning herself 50 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: as the only one who saw what was happening with 51 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: her child. 52 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 3: I started noticing just kind of weird things or times 53 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 3: where her body would just feel really different, like it 54 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 3: would either be super super tight or like really limp. 55 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 4: Doctor's visits filled the first few years life. 56 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 3: And right away they found pretty significant brain damage, and 57 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 3: so she was diagnosed with CP. 58 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 1: At the end of twenty fifteen. 59 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 4: This is a sample, but Sophie quickly realized was experiencing 60 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 4: something much more concerning. 61 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 3: Complaining to the ne'real just saying like she's having seizures. 62 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 3: So they would bring her in for any eg and 63 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 3: it was nothing. They're like, no, we don't see anything. 64 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 3: Maybe she is there's the walls. 65 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 4: Sophia admits she started to question her own instincts. 66 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 3: There'll be times where she was like literally totally paralyzed, 67 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 3: and I go to her doctors and be like, I 68 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 3: know she's walking right now, but like she was literally 69 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 3: paralyzed all day yesterday and they'd be like, no, that's 70 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 3: not possible. I'm like, but like, it's she couldn't move, 71 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 3: like I'm telling you, And they're like, okay, but she 72 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 3: can't now, and I'm like. 73 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 5: Right, I know. 74 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 4: But after seeking a second opinion and running through genetic testing, 75 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 4: she also. 76 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 3: Has one on the ATP one a phree giene which 77 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 3: is associated with a disorder called alternating HAMOPOLYGAF childhood, which 78 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 3: is a extremely rare, one in a million genetic disorder. 79 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 4: And she's right, it affects one and one million children. 80 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 4: It is progressive and has no cure. 81 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 3: Wow, Lord, you took me up to the fullest extent 82 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 3: on what I told you. 83 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: I was willing to do. This piece on the Evening 84 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: News ended up being the first chapter in what would 85 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: become a major national news story. This is rare for 86 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: manchesen bi broxy cases, which usually Gardner little national coverage 87 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: outside of the truly sensationalized stories like Gypsey, Rose Blanchard 88 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: and Maya Kuwalski, But there were many elements of this 89 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: story that caught people's attention. For one, there were the optics. Sophie, 90 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: who is young, white, blonde, and conventionally pretty, had adopted 91 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: two children, sisters from a far away nation. 92 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 3: I went to Zambia after my freshman year of college 93 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 3: on a month long mission trip, and so when I 94 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 3: was there, I just encounter the plight of an orphan adoption. 95 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: Wasn't on my radar at all. In the televised segment, 96 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: there are images from Sophie's life with her two adorable girls, 97 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: interspersed with footage from the interview and b roll of 98 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: Sophie's younger daughter, who were referring to as c who 99 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: is smiley and cheerfully dressed, in the family's kitchen. At 100 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: one point, as the two play a game together, Sophie 101 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: sitting beside her daughter's wheelchair, the little girl says, this my. 102 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 6: Radar at all. 103 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: You want to get a pook so scared it would 104 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: be easy to miss this blip in the audio, But 105 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: the little girl is saying I don't want to get 106 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: a poke. I'm so scared. This moment is odd because 107 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: they're not in a medical setting and there's no medical 108 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: equipment nearby. To most, this might be a throwaway moment, 109 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: but for me, it's a harbinger of how this seemingly 110 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: inspiring story of a mother who'd moved heaven and earth 111 00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: to help two orphans became. 112 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 5: So this is detective. 113 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 3: We're work with the rents and Police department. 114 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 7: Today's date is March twenty twenty one. It is approximately 115 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:08,239 Speaker 7: eight oh three hours. 116 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: And then can you just state your name for me? 117 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 3: Sophie Hartman. 118 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 8: In twenty nineteen, King five first met Sophie Hartman after 119 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 8: she adopted two sisters from Zambia. She told us one 120 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 8: has a rare neurological disorder called alternating Hemaplegia of childhood 121 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 8: or AHC. At the time, Hartman set up a GoFundMe 122 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 8: page to raise money for a wheelchair vehicle. Today, she 123 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:34,239 Speaker 8: faces second degree assault charges against a child, her own daughter. 124 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 8: This is not based off of one investigator. 125 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: It's not based off of a quick investigation. 126 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 7: This was months of investigation by police and several experts 127 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:43,679 Speaker 7: who wait. 128 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 8: In King County prosecutors are accusing Hartman of subjecting her 129 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 8: daughter to medically unnecessary surgical procedures and restraints. Records say 130 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 8: the girl underwent more than four hundred and seventy four 131 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 8: medical appointments since twenty sixteen. 132 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: When the Sophie Hartman case broke, it was the typical 133 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: litany of eye popping numbers of doctor's visits and procedures 134 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: that her daughter had to endure. But this season, we're 135 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: diving into the complicated, many layered story of Sophie Hartman, 136 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: a white evangelical woman from a small town in Michigan 137 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: who traveled thousands of miles to Zambia and returned with 138 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: two vulnerable little girls. People believe their eyes. That's something 139 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: that is so central to this topic, because we do 140 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. 141 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: If we didn't, you could never make it through your day. 142 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Dunlop, and this is nobody should believe me. 143 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: If you'd like to support the show, the best way 144 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or 145 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: on Patreon. You get all episodes early in ad free, 146 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: along with extended cuts and deleted scenes. From the season. 147 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: You also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month, and 148 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: for the first time ever, we have the entire season 149 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed. 150 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: That's right. You can listen to every episode of season 151 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: five right this minute if you subscribe to the show, 152 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: and as always, if monetary support is not an option 153 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever 154 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: you listen also helps us a great deal. And if 155 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please 156 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: do share it with them. Word of mouth is so 157 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: important for independent podcasts. For even more, you can also 158 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: find us on YouTube, where we have every episode as 159 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: well as bonus video content. Figuring out where to start 160 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: with these cases can be a challenge, and going in 161 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: I always know that hearing from the person at the 162 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: center of it is probably unlikely. However, in this instance 163 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 1: we had a pretty compelling source document because Sophie wrote 164 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: a memoir. 165 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 7: The Strong Ache in my Stomach, that, like homesickness, was 166 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 7: for another country, a land where children ran freely and 167 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 7: dust filled every crevice, a place so different and foreign, 168 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 7: yet one where Heaven met Earth more clearly than I 169 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 7: had ever seen before. 170 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: That was an excerpt from Sophie Hartman's twenty sixteen self 171 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: published memoir entitled Crowns of Beauty. The book offers her 172 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: first person account of her time in Zambia and her 173 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: journey to adopt her two daughters, Sophie's younger daughter, who 174 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: were referring to as C, and Sophie's older daughter, who 175 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: were referring to as M. The cover is a moody 176 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: professional photo of Sophie carrying her youngest on her hip 177 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: and holding her older daughter by the hand. Born in 178 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine, Sophie Hartman grew up in a small 179 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: town outside of Kalamazoo, Michigan. From what I've been able 180 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: to glean about her childhood, she appears to have had 181 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: a fairly normal, upper middle class life. I've spoken to 182 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: some folks on background who know the family, and they 183 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: told me that they were well off and well respected 184 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: in town. The whole family was also very active in 185 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: the church, and according to Sophie's memoir, she began her 186 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: devout relationship with God at the age of fourteen during 187 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: a Christian summer camp. Sophie was a talented athlete and 188 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,199 Speaker 1: played basketball and soccer growing up and after graduation, went 189 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: on to college, and then, according to her book, a 190 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 1: summer mission trip prompted her to leave school about two 191 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: and a half years early, changing the course of her life. 192 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 7: Scene A Kafui's screams of a divine artist's touch, one 193 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 7: that faithfully brings forth beauty each day. Within moments of 194 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 7: setting foot on the soil. That day in two thousand 195 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,599 Speaker 7: and eight, draped behind the fierce beauty of Kafui's landscape, 196 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 7: I witnessed the torments of everyday life by the people 197 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 7: who called this compound home. I saw Malner's children ply 198 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 7: their way through sewage drains, chewing on plastic bags, and 199 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 7: my heart burned in my chest. Filthy, unclothed babies crawling 200 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 7: alone in the middle of the street caught me completely 201 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:01,359 Speaker 7: off guard, their desperate, empty eyes gazing lifelessly back at mine. 202 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 7: The dramatic and contrasting reality that was present every day 203 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 7: in Kafui devastated me, and I've never been the same. 204 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 7: But maybe I had been missing something. Maybe beauty could 205 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 7: always be found in places long thought to be dark, 206 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 7: and maybe beauty could still surface in places of utter darkness, 207 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 7: that is, if someone was willing to fight for it. 208 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: Sophie appears to have been in and out of Zambia 209 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: from roughly two thousand and eight to twenty fifteen, but 210 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: the details of where she was and with whom are 211 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: obscured in her memoir. In fact, everything about her time 212 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: there is obscured, as she notes to the reader that 213 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: she's changed the names of not only the people who 214 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: appear in the book, but even many of the towns 215 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: that she lived in and traveled to. I can certainly 216 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: understand changing the names of people to protect their privacy, 217 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: but the links she goes to to hide the details 218 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: of her life there are somewhat extraordinary given that this 219 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: is a memoir. Notably, in her acknowledgments, which here in 220 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 1: the opening pages of the book, she thinks a large 221 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: number of Americans by name, But given that the memoir 222 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: is focused on her time in another country, her words 223 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: of thanks to the folks in Zambia are strikingly different. 224 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 7: My big Zambian family, you have changed my life forever. 225 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 7: Thank you for not just being eager but ecstatic about 226 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 7: this book, and thank you for letting me tell those stories. 227 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 7: I'm so grateful we'll get to be together in the 228 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 7: age to come. I look forward to amazing chocolates and 229 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 7: the biggest pillow fights forever. You are beautiful to me. 230 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: And that is it. I've written acknowledgments of my own 231 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: for five books now, and especially on the first one. 232 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: You name just literally every person ever, like the maurista 233 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: who got your coffee while you were writing in the morning, 234 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: your third grade teacher, your dog walker. If these Zambian 235 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: friends were so ecstatic about the book, why aren't we 236 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: thinking any of them by name. The book is largely 237 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: focused on time abroad, and we're given scant details of 238 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: Sophie's life before in Michigan. In fact, we mostly hear 239 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: about how much resistance she encountered for a decision to 240 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: go to Zambia. 241 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 7: A believer very near to me aggressively questioned my decision, 242 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 7: What did you know about helping people in Africa? And 243 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 7: how do you think you can handle all the poverty 244 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 7: and the horrible situations when you have never experienced that, 245 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 7: You will not be safe. And all I'll be able 246 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 7: to say when you come home is I told you so. 247 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: And look, I can imagine that Sophie's parents were probably 248 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: a bit dismayed at the idea of their daughter dropping 249 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: out of college to move to Zambia. However, an idealistic 250 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: college kid heading out to save the world is so 251 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: common it's a cliche. We all know the guy who 252 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: goes on to be an accountant but never shuts up 253 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: about his time in the Peace Corps. But Sophie's description 254 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: of the town's reaction to her decision elevates her to 255 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: the status of martyr. 256 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 7: Images of leaving my upper class at youation and culture 257 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 7: and stepping into the dusty lives of children deemed filth 258 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 7: triggered thoughts of a scripture passage I had read time 259 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 7: and time again. Speak up for those who cannot speak 260 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 7: for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute, 261 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 7: Speak up and judge fairly, defend the rights of the 262 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 7: poor and needy, Proverbs thirty one to eighty nine. 263 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: In the beginning sections of the book, we also hear 264 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: from Sophie's little sister, Sam, who contributes journal entries describing 265 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: the change she sees in her sister. 266 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 9: I saw Sophie walking through a towering doorway, given away 267 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 9: by her bright blonde hair and beaming smile. She rolled 268 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 9: two large suitcases behind her, and she was wrapped in 269 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 9: colorful Zambian fabric. I clung to Sophie's right side the 270 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 9: entire ride, wide eyed and in awe of my big sister, 271 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 9: who looked like an African princess. 272 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: After her initial trip, Sophie returned less than a year later, 273 00:14:55,280 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: and at nineteen, started interning for an orphan sponsorship ministry. 274 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: That was where Sophie would find her true calling. 275 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 7: He has called me to Zambia. I was there, and 276 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 7: then he told me he wants me to move there. 277 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 7: I'm still in college, but I'm leaving soon. He's called 278 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 7: me to be a mother in this nation. He has 279 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 7: called me to serve these children and to be a 280 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 7: voice for those who have no voice. It's crazy. Most 281 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 7: of my friends and family are trying to stop me 282 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 7: from going, but I can't say no. I love Jesus. 283 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 7: I love him. I love him. Oh, I love him. 284 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: Reading this book was a disorienting experience, given the context 285 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: a young white evangelical setting out to quote save the 286 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: people of Zambia. I was expecting the writing to be 287 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: a bit problematic, but it was also settling in for 288 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: what might at very least be an interesting fish out 289 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: of water story of someone leaving everything they've ever known, 290 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: and I didn't know anything about Zambia, so I was 291 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: looking forward to hearing the little details about day to 292 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: day life. You notice so much when you're in a 293 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: new place. It's what makes traveling abroad so thrilling. Suddenly, 294 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: everything from the food to the fashion, to the local 295 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: shopping habits and modes of transportation are new and fascinating. 296 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: I was also quite curious to know what a twenty 297 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: year old college kid even does when they land in Zambia, 298 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: and after reading the nearly two hundred pages of this memoir, 299 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: I learned none of that. Reading this book was the 300 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: beginning of an experience that I continue to have as 301 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: I try to get a handle on Sophie's story. It's 302 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: like the closer I get to it, the more it pixelates. 303 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: It's like trying to see through layers of smoke, only 304 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: to discover more smoke. Sophie's primary descriptive of Zambia is 305 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: that it's quote dusty and basically just kind of hellish. 306 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 7: Walking through the streets of shanty Zambian compounds does something 307 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 7: to me. These compounds are lums, squalid, densely populated areas 308 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 7: where poverty and disease are rampant. Whether I return home 309 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 7: with mud between my toes because of the rains, with 310 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 7: dust in every crevice during the dry season, or with 311 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 7: soiled clothes because of a mixture of urine and diarrhea 312 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 7: from all my little friends, something unexplainable happens. My heart 313 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 7: is moved every time, and something in the depths of 314 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 7: me yurins for Jesus. 315 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 1: Because of the obfuscation of many of the exact locations, 316 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: I can't say for sure whether Sophie really encountered this 317 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: much dust, but certainly the whole country is not dusty. 318 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: Zambia is a developing country, but to reduce the nation 319 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: to scenes of crushing poverty and desperately maltreated children, as 320 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: Sophie does in this book is unfair and inaccurate. Zambia 321 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: is one of the most urbanized countries in Sub Saharan Africa. 322 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: In two thousand and eight, when Sophie first arrived there, 323 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: Zambia would have still been reeling from the global economic crisis, 324 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: but they'd also undergone about a decade of economic growth 325 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: and export diversification. Progress is being made in education, lowering 326 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: maternal and child mortality, rates and tackling the HIV AIDS epidemic. 327 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: But there isn't much nuance to Sophie's descriptions of Zambia. 328 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: The picture she paints is evocative of those Sally Struthers 329 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: commercials from the nineties. 330 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 10: For about seventy cents, you can buy a can of 331 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 10: soda regular or diet. In Ethiopia, For just seventy cents 332 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 10: a day, you can feed a child like Jamal nourishing meal. 333 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 10: Since nineteen thirty eight, Christian Children's Fund has helped children 334 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 10: of many faiths and their communities with food, medical care, clothing, 335 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 10: a chance to go to school, or whatever is needed most. 336 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 6: Today, so many children around the world still need your help, 337 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 6: and through Christian Children's Fund, you can reach out to 338 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 6: one of them by sharing, well, just a little of 339 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 6: your pocket change. It takes so little for you to 340 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 6: become a special friend to a child in a developer country, 341 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 6: but boy, the good it can do is worth more 342 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 6: than you can imagine. 343 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,239 Speaker 1: So while there certainly is poverty in Zambia, much like 344 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: in most places, Sophie's descriptions feel troubling. Now, it's hard 345 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: to say on its face whether the problem here is 346 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: that Sophie just needs to take a few more creative 347 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: writing workshops, or if this is evidence of something deeper, 348 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: but I just couldn't get over how the people she 349 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: was with and the place she was in just never 350 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: came into focus. Much more vivid than her descriptions of 351 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: life in Zambia were Sophie's internal experiences, mostly talking to God. 352 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: These were numerous and florid, occasionally veering into downright romantic 353 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: passages like this one. 354 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 7: You will find that I have loved you, Lord. I 355 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 7: have loved you hard and with abandon. My eyes are 356 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 7: on you, locked in I'm gazing. You will find me 357 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 7: fully and holy in love with you. I will drink 358 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 7: this cup, this double agony, this double grief, this searing pain, 359 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 7: this deep anger, and this hatred of injustice because of them, 360 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 7: and I will love you wholly as I drink this cup, 361 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 7: sowing in tears, swing in tears, sewing in tears. 362 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: In her memoir and when she speaks to the media 363 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: about her daughters, Sophie refers to the two young girls 364 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,719 Speaker 1: she brought home from Zambia as orphans. And there's an 365 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: important cultural nuance here in the United States when we 366 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: say orphan we usually take this to mean a child 367 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: whose parents are dead. However, because of the differences in 368 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: family structure, the word orphan has a pretty different context 369 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: in Zambia. According to Zambian journalist Lori Machinhi, children become 370 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: orphaned when they lose their parents, but parents are not 371 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: seen as the only primary caregivers in a Zambian family. 372 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: Zambians embrace the extended family system, so the adults that 373 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: we would refer to as ans and uncles are also 374 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 1: considered parental figures and often referred to as mom and 375 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: dad as well, especially in traditional village settings. Similarly, cousins 376 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: are referred to as sisters and brothers, etc. So when 377 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: someone loses their parents and can't live on their own, 378 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: the other adults in the family automatically take over custody 379 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: of that quote orphan. In a few circumstances, where families 380 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: are too poor or too abusive, the orphans will be 381 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: taken to an orphanage where they will remain until they 382 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: are able to be reunited with family, or, in cases 383 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: where that's not possible, come of age and go out 384 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: on their own. So while in the US we may 385 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: think of an orphanage as a place where abandoned children 386 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: await adoption. Orphanages in Zambia can serve as more of 387 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: what we think of as a foster home for children. 388 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: Because of the vagueness and frankly, the strangeness of Sophie's writing, 389 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: it's hard to get a grasp on what she was 390 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: doing day to day in Zambia prior to meeting and 391 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: adopting her older daughter m Largely, it seems that she 392 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: was in the business of saving souls. There's a lot 393 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: of talk about saving women and children and being a 394 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: quote mother to them, but the particulars aren't clear other 395 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: than various mentions of proselytizing and Bible study, and occasional 396 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 1: mentions of meetings with various healthcare providers. And Sophie doesn't 397 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: appear to have any specialized training. However, as well demonstrated 398 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,959 Speaker 1: by the book, she sure does seem to know a 399 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: lot of scripture. There's a lot about Jesus in this book. 400 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: I would say at least the third of the text 401 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: is Sophie in rapturous conversation with Him. Now, as for 402 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: any of the earthly men she encounters in her time 403 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: in Zambia, Sophie has nothing good to report. 404 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 7: One afternoon in late twenty ten, I was walking home 405 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 7: through the compound where I lived, dialoguing with Jesus about 406 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 7: my day. Drunken men directed profanities at me as I 407 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 7: passed a tavern, but simultaneously, my eyes fixed on three 408 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 7: little girls playing in the dirt just a few feet 409 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 7: in front of them. Their soil dresses barely covered their bottoms, 410 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 7: making it obvious that they wore no undergarments. My heart 411 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 7: burned and adrenaline shot through my veins as I recalled 412 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 7: that three days earlier, a young child was severely raped 413 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 7: in an alley nearby. A fire rose within me as 414 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 7: I recalled another very complex sexual assault case in which 415 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 7: three precious young girls confessed that they had agreed to 416 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 7: give themselves to a man for a gift, which turned 417 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 7: out to be a single lollipop for the three of 418 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 7: them to share. 419 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: Now, sadly, sexual assault is both pervasive and universal, and 420 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 1: unfortunately it has not been possible to corroborate or disprove 421 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: any of the anecdotes Sophie shares in her book. The 422 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: story she tells here could be true, but her descriptions 423 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: of the people in Zambia, particularly, but not exclusively, the 424 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: men often paints them as cruel and violent. 425 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 7: The transition from my Southwest Michigan normal to my new 426 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 7: Zambian compound no normal was tough. It was now normal 427 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 7: to cry myself to sleep every night, to be fondled 428 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 7: and grabbed by men throughout the day, and to encounter 429 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 7: severely abused women and children. It was also normal to 430 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 7: hear heinous sexual comments by drunken men. It was normal 431 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 7: to have bruises and sore limbs from being dragged into 432 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 7: an alleyway, to be threatened with stoning and being thrown 433 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 7: in fire while fighting to rescue children, and to be 434 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 7: harassed and followed by individuals with legions of unrestrained demons 435 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 7: possessing them. It was normal to hold babies who had 436 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 7: been dumped in sewers, to feed children whose bellies and 437 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 7: bottoms were being eaten away by worms, and to listen 438 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 7: to little girls replay the abusive events of the night prior. 439 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 1: And while we don't get any sense of the daily 440 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: details like meals or dress, the passages about the suffering 441 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: of the children she encounters are vivid and g The 442 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: book positioned Sophie as both a martyr and a savior, 443 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: helping various women and children at great risk to herself. 444 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: And while Sophie talks a lot about Jesus, she also 445 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: paints herself very much as a christ like figure. Her 446 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: story culminates with the adoption of her two daughters, C 447 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: and M, following a lengthy battle with the Zambian government, who, 448 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: according to her, fought her every step of the way. 449 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: Sophie was under twenty five at the time, which made 450 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: it against Zambian law for her to adopt children. She 451 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: was also less than twenty one years older than M, 452 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: her eldest daughter, which went against a separate legal requirement. However, 453 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: the adoptions did eventually go through, with M in twenty 454 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: fourteen when she was five, and with C the baby, 455 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: when she was less than a year old. 456 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 7: In twenty fifteen, one day after I had completed my 457 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 7: primary responsibilities, I was prompted by the Holy Spirit to 458 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 7: visit a crisis orphanage. I had been there only one before, 459 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 7: and since then I had repeatedly asked Jesus for another 460 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 7: opportunity to go. I declared under my breath that because 461 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 7: Jesus made it clear in the Bible that visiting the 462 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 7: orphan was true religion. I knew that more would happen 463 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 7: during my time at the orphanage than would meet my eye. 464 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 7: I walked in, and there she was. As she wiggled 465 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 7: beneath three blankets. I could start to make out her 466 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 7: tiny frame. It was obvious just by her face though 467 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 7: that malnourishment had left her entire body skeletal. Her body 468 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 7: came to a rest as I drew her near. I 469 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 7: looked down, gazing into her eyes. I couldn't help but 470 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 7: stare at such beauty. She pulls her little fists close 471 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 7: to her face and she rubs her tired eyes. I've 472 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 7: never seen something so precious. My hand supports her damp bottom. 473 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 7: The smell of urine meets my nose as the most 474 00:26:53,880 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 7: fragrant glory. 475 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: Every other case I've covered on this show has concerned 476 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: parents and their biological children, so I wanted to better 477 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: understand the nuances of the adoptions in this case and 478 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: get some insight into the girl's experience. To help us 479 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: understand the process and complexities of transracial adoption. We sat 480 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: down with Chad Golder sojourner, a Seattle based writer, educator, 481 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: and performer who counsels families and organizations on this topic. 482 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: What do you think is the biggest kind of misconception 483 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: or set of misconceptions about transracial adoption, in particular when 484 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 1: you're talking about like a white family adopting black children. 485 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 5: So I think so I've been one of the misconceptions 486 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 5: is that the white parent knows more. Think about that way. 487 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 5: We have this weird way about adoption and especially transracial 488 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 5: adoptee is this narrative that they adoptees should be grateful. 489 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 5: Some home is better than no home. How dare you 490 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 5: not be grateful? 491 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 6: You know? 492 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: In this man? 493 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 5: You know, I remember the whole album was that Sally's 494 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 5: thruthers ads with the kids and the flies and all that, 495 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 5: even that mentality, And the fact is that's not right, 496 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 5: you know. And the fact is that you have to 497 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 5: put in more energy and time. So one thing I 498 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 5: did when I did we're we're consulting, is that somebody's 499 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 5: going to be uncomfortable. It's just how life is. And 500 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 5: if the parent is not being uncomfortable, you can assume 501 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 5: that the child is uncomfortable. For translational adoptees, especially with 502 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 5: dropting black kids, is you have to prepare them to 503 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 5: enter into the world they're going to live in. 504 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: I have a two year old and a six year old, 505 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: and I really see my job as a parent to 506 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: prepare my kids for the world that they live in. 507 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: And this is hard enough as it is, so I 508 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: can only imagine when an uphill battle be if you 509 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: had such a difference in your lived experience to what 510 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: you know that your children's will be. So it's really 511 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: important to me to note that neither Chad nor myself 512 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: is against adoption, transracial or otherwise. Families come to be 513 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: in all kinds of different and often beautiful ways, and 514 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: families are always complicated. It's also true that there are 515 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: some additional layers of complexity when adoption comes into the picture, 516 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: and as I know from talking to friends who've adopted, 517 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: including our Season two family The Wayburns, it's just a 518 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: lot to navigate. As Chad explained, there is always the 519 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: risk that children in these situations will come to be 520 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: seen as commodities, and consideration for them and their birth 521 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: parents isn't always top of mind Sadly, in the worst 522 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: case scenario, adoption can be seen as a marketplace. For example, 523 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: prospective parents can flock to states that allow shorter windows 524 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: of time for birthing parents to change their mind. And 525 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: when you add international borders into the discussion, children are 526 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: also at an en increased risk of being fundamentally and 527 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: profoundly disconnected from their homeland. 528 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 5: I think one reasons that people benefit from into it's 529 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 5: their national adoption, it's yeah adoptions, is because it's harder 530 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 5: for you cut the kid away, so there's no three 531 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 5: days you can't take him, mack. You know, it's less 532 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 5: likely this kid's going to be taken from right. 533 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: So this family, you know, it is a transracial adoption. 534 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: It's a white mother of two black daughters. And it's 535 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: also an international adoption that is a faith based adoption 536 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: that took place in the context of this woman when 537 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: she was quite young, going to Zambia to do missionary 538 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: work and then eventually returning to the States with these 539 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: two girls. So can you help us kind of understand 540 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: these these different sort of complications that come around with 541 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: these things. 542 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 5: Well, so, first of all, a somebody who's been running 543 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 5: with Jesus is the Carter administration. I will tell you 544 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 5: that God will never tell an eighteen year old to 545 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 5: go six thousand miles to get a child. Okay, he 546 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 5: might say, and go down to the soup kitchen, go 547 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 5: mow the guy's lawn. So I think the problem with 548 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 5: the international adoption for a couple reasons is you have 549 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 5: no idea. First of all, you don't know what you're 550 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 5: gonna get. And I don't mean that you know you're 551 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 5: going to play sweet on a local currency. You can't spell, 552 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 5: you can't find it on a map. I can't plan. 553 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 5: I'm not saying I but I'm not going to Zamber 554 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 5: to get a kid. There's all these different things. You 555 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 5: know nothing with history, and you want to take a 556 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 5: kid and remove them. Just erase that part. 557 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 6: Which is very bold and brash. 558 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 5: It just seems like who, like where? Like where is 559 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 5: that biblical? You know? If you know, baby talks about 560 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 5: God helps some widows in Orpher and she doesn't like 561 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 5: talk about just removing them. 562 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: Missionary work itself is very fraught territory. It's mostly young 563 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: white kids going to countries that have often been destabilized 564 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: due to long histories of colonialism and foreign conflict, and 565 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: as Chad pointed out, Sophie's traveling to Zambia to take 566 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: two girls Home was probably not the most efficient or 567 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: economical way to help out. 568 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 5: I mean, being the playing there is all the money 569 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 5: that they were, all the stuff that goes into these 570 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 5: questions like why. It goes back to why my other 571 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 5: concern about transracial international adoptions. I just had this thing 572 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 5: that kids should be able to put their feet on 573 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 5: the soil. Somebody, you know, like, are you taking the 574 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 5: kid back? Like when are they going back? You know, 575 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 5: because it's all's interesting, Oh, we can't afford it. Well, 576 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 5: you afforded it the first time, you know, you went 577 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 5: to eat open to get the kid, but now you 578 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,239 Speaker 5: can ever afford to go back. So I think, I mean, 579 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 5: I want to see just totally disparaging about but I 580 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 5: think there's you know a lot of stuff there that 581 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 5: is still doesn't make sense. I think when you looking 582 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 5: at you know, this whole concept an I don't want 583 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 5: to use the word white nationalism the way you know 584 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 5: we all think, but there is this white savior complex. 585 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: This is the troubling vein running through Sophie's book. It's 586 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: the grandiosity of thinking that Zambia is a problem and 587 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: it's one that she's equipped to solve. 588 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 7: A fierce fire started to burn in me with the 589 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 7: knowledge that I had been born to fight for justice. 590 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 7: The core of my God given personality, combined with the 591 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 7: circumstances of my life, had given me a unique skill 592 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 7: set that seemed particularly valuable in Zambia's darkest compounds. 593 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: And the two kids that Sophie ends up adopting are 594 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: not the only kids that she tries to quote save 595 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: from Zambia. She attempted to adopt twins before she successfully 596 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: adopted her older daughter m She also describes many other 597 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: instances in her book where she's saving kids in a 598 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: different way. 599 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 7: I took a few steps in Espina's direction. She immediately 600 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 7: retreated backward and began shouting, almost barking. In that moment, 601 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 7: I became certain that she was under a demonic influence, 602 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 7: and I immediately felt a generous boldness to share the 603 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 7: gospel completely unhindered. I began to share the gospel from 604 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 7: Genesis to Revelation. Espina was now seated with intense anger 605 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 7: across her face. I calmly approached her and gently placed 606 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 7: my right hand on her head. She pulled away, falling 607 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 7: down in the dirt, and immediately I could tell that 608 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 7: the little girl inside her was held captive by darkness. 609 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 7: I got down in the dirt beside her and proclaimed 610 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 7: freedom over her. I could hear her calling out Jesus, Jesus, 611 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 7: and then suddenly she would stop. I made no retreat 612 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 7: and simply continued to declare freedom in Jesus's name. The 613 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 7: Spina thrashed around on the ground for quite a while, 614 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 7: sometimes extending her hands up to the sky, but kicking 615 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 7: up a dust storm. She screamed as if her entire 616 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 7: body was chained, and I stood in agreement with Jesus 617 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 7: as he ordered the demons. 618 00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 5: To let go. 619 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: I don't want to be dismissive of anyone's beliefs, but 620 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 1: also what will The religious piece of Sophie's perspective feels 621 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: pretty foreign to me as an agnostic, and we're going 622 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: to bring in an expert to help us unpack those 623 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: parts of the story. The positioning of Sophie as both 624 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: a martyr and a savior feels extremely familiar to me, 625 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: as does the book's fixation on crisis and suffering. So 626 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: much has glossed over in the book, but the scenes 627 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: like this one where Sophie is heroically saving children feel 628 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 1: downright cinematic, so as we move away from Sophie's account 629 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: of her origin story and the adoptions go through for 630 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: both C and M in twenty fifteen, this brings us 631 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: back into the real world, a world where Sophie is 632 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: now a single mother of two, and after leaving Zambia, 633 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: she doesn't choose to head home to Michigan, where her 634 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,839 Speaker 1: family and friends live, where her childhood church congregation is, 635 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: or where her entire supports a system appears to reside. 636 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: She moves to Seattle, where I live. This season on, 637 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,359 Speaker 1: nobody should believe me if. 638 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 2: She wasn't guilty of these allegations, if she was not 639 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 2: doing what this search warrant was alleging, you know how horrific. 640 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 3: I mean, she seems like a saint. 641 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 7: She would start to talk about money and how you 642 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 7: know she doesn't have any money and she needs fundraisers 643 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 7: and all those stuff. 644 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: But her daughter is in one of the most expensive 645 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 1: sports and I believe the church raised about around thirty 646 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. 647 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 6: Something like that. 648 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,720 Speaker 11: I'd gone through a very traumatic experience having her children 649 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 11: taken away, and we as han church, got the opportunity 650 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 11: to support her and hold her up with our prayers. 651 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 7: But from my observations, she's like the healthiest kidder of. 652 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:56,720 Speaker 8: Seeing her life. 653 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 11: Would eat as much as we'd feed her. But given 654 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 11: the fact that her digestive system is so messed up, 655 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 11: my daughter has to regulate that. 656 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 1: I had a hard time imagining being a parent and 657 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: making videos of those kinds of things from my kid. 658 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 7: Did you ever witness having what Sophie calls one of 659 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 7: her episodes. I did not. 660 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 3: She allegedly had this journal entry that talked about how 661 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 3: she had an issue with lying, so every time I 662 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 3: go in, like to the doctor, she wouldn't be exhibiting 663 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 3: those symptoms. I'm like, I know this sounds crazy. 664 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: But I'm not making so this is not this is not. 665 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 6: Yeah, well you're the mom. 666 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 5: Yeah. 667 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 6: Would it surprise you if I told you that AC 668 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 6: is not a terminal disease? 669 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 11: Yes, it was, so I think that all of the 670 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 11: signs and symptoms are here for that. 671 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 5: It's obviously a concern that she's pushing this child towards death. 672 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: Nobody should believe me. Is written hosted an executive produce 673 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: by me Andrea Dumma. Our senior producer is Maria Gossett. 674 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: Story editing by Nicole Hill. Research and fact checking by 675 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 1: Aaron Ajaii and our associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Mixing 676 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: and engineering by Robin Edgar. Book passages were performed by 677 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: Ilana Michelle Rubin. Special thanks this week to Chad Goler, sojourner, 678 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: Glory Machinhi Francisco Alvarado, who originally covered this story for 679 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: The Daily Beast, and the many people who spoke to 680 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: us on background. If you, or anyone you know is 681 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go 682 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: to munchausensupport dot com to connect with professionals who can 683 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: help