1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: Amy roboc and TJ. Holmes present Killer Thriller with your 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: host Alisa Donovan. Hi, you guys, welcome back to Killer 3 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: Thriller DOCU edition. So in November of twenty twenty two, 4 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: for your, University of Idaho students were brutally murdered in 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: a crime that shocked the nation and quickly became one 6 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: of the most heavily followed investigations in recent memory. As 7 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: the search for answers unfolded, millions of people became invested 8 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: in every development, from the investigation itself to the endless 9 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: speculations online. I know that I did this. One was 10 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: really brutal in real time and I could not stop 11 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: thinking about it. But now Netflix's The Idaho Murders The 12 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: College Nightmare takes a different approach, and rather than focusing 13 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: on internet theories or turning the tragedy into a who'd 14 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: done it, the documentary centers on the lives that were lost, 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: the families forever changed, and the real impact of a 16 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: case that captivated the world. So today we are joined 17 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: by the legendary documentary filmmaker Joe Berlinger, whose work has 18 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: helped define the modern true crime genre. From Paradise Loss 19 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: to conversations with a killer. These are huge ones, you guys. 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: This guy's is huge. He's spent decades exploring the complex 21 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: intersection of crime, justice, media, and humanity. And in this conversation, 22 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: we'll talk about the responsibility of telling stories like this 23 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: and the challenge of documenting an active case that unfolded 24 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: in the public eye, and why keeping the victims at 25 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: the center of the story mattered more than anything else. 26 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: And if you haven't watched it, that is what is 27 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: really beautiful about this is that you really do get 28 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: a chance to get to know the victims. So let's 29 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: bring in Joe Berlinger. 30 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: Hello, Joe, Hey, nice to see you. How are you. 31 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: It's really an honor to see you. I am well. 32 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: I hope that you are as well, and I know 33 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: your time is probably very limited. Over eighteen million downloads? 34 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: Are how many? How many? 35 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 2: It's weird how they calculate it, but it's it's big. 36 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: It's like eighteen million views, you know. I think my 37 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: show for them, which also was in the number one. 38 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: Spot, Jomping a. 39 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 2: Yes, had about seven or eight million views by this time, 40 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 2: so this is six This is eighteen million views. 41 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, then I'm thinking I'm probably not your only podcast, 42 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: so I am, hey, I'm jumping in. 43 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,399 Speaker 2: But you're the podcast for today, so I take each 44 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: each one with great seriousness. 45 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: I appreciate that. So I have so many questions for you. 46 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 1: I I'm going to start this out though, asking you 47 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: if there is something that you haven't been asked so far, 48 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: and that's really just making my job very easy. Something 49 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: that you want to say about the Idaho murders no 50 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: one's ever asked. Is there anything that you feel like 51 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: you haven't covered that we can get an exclusive on. 52 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: I wish I could come up with something, but you know, 53 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 2: I'm an open book, and you know I have to. 54 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 2: I've talked about things on the show before. 55 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: But okay, okay, well then you're gonna have to put 56 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: up with my questions that I'm sure are repeats. 57 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 2: You know, it's been a four year journey. Yeah, you know, 58 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: I guess you know. The most important thing to say 59 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 2: is that you know, we are not the first documentary 60 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: to come out either have been multiple docs on the subject, 61 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 2: but we were amongst the first people there. And because 62 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 2: there's so much rumor and innuendo and speculation and blaming 63 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 2: the roommates and all sorts of terrible things are being 64 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 2: said to people, you know, all the armchair sleuths out there. 65 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: It was very, very important to us to not rush 66 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: out a show until we we were prepared to wait 67 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: until the trial was over. Obviously it was a plea deal, 68 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 2: but we felt the best way to honor the victims. 69 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: This is a very victim focused show. The best way 70 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: to honor the victims was to tell the complete story 71 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: and not try to you know, rush a production out 72 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: just to be part of the you know, there's one 73 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: thing about breaking news. You know, ongoing news coverage is 74 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 2: certainly appropriate, but you know, we didn't want to rush 75 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: our documentary out to be first. We wanted to take 76 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: our time, be patient, and tell the complete and total story, 77 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: which I think is what makes ours unique because the 78 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: other docs that came out was were before the gag. Yeah, 79 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 2: there was before the evidence was available. So you know, again, 80 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 2: there's been so many things said, so many theories pursued, 81 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: none of which well not none of which, some of 82 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 2: which are just completely false. That we wanted to, you know, 83 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: honor the victims by being by being complete. 84 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: Not being right. And you certainly did, and I am 85 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: interested to know. You know, I watch a lot of 86 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: true crime and true crime documentaries, and a lot of 87 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: them try to get into the psychology behind the murderer, 88 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: the rapists, the but this was really more, I think, 89 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: focused on the victim, on the victims, and in a 90 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: way it was a it was very refreshing for me 91 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: in the sense that you know, looking at Brian, I 92 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: just there was nothing in his eyes. It was just 93 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: this deadness, and what he did was so cold blooded. 94 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 1: And sometimes I do feel like, maybe, you know, the 95 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: perpetrators of these crimes don't deserve our thoughtful investigation of 96 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: their past. What do you think? 97 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, I've done a lot of true crime. 98 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 2: And by the way, true crime is a phrase that 99 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 2: I hate. It's associated with me. You know, I'm considered 100 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 2: a true crime bioneer. I like the pioneer part, but 101 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: the true crime phraseology, you know, associated with my work. 102 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 2: You know, even though I understand. 103 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: Why documentary just documentary filmmaker. 104 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 2: I mean, you can say true crime, everyone does. I'm 105 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 2: just saying, you know, there is a lot of irresponsible 106 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 2: true crime that doesn't take the victims into account. There's 107 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 2: a lot of consumption of true crime where people are 108 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 2: just like in it for the story, and you know, 109 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: you always have to remember, this is the worst day 110 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 2: in somebody's life, in a family's life. And you know, 111 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: I only want to tell a story if you can 112 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: move the needle forward on an investigation, or you can 113 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 2: make some social justice difference, or in this instance, to 114 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: really focus on the victims. We thought that was very important. Look, 115 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 2: I've made shows that have focused on the killer, but 116 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: when I do those kinds of shows, it's often to 117 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 2: identify new victims of a serial killer or to get 118 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: laws changed. So yeah, So the phrase true crime it 119 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 2: has this baggage of like wallowing in the misery of 120 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 2: others just to tell a story. And I like to 121 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 2: choose my subjects where I think I can needle from 122 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 2: a social justice standpoint. Yes, but as you said, we 123 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 2: made a very conscious decision to be very victim focused 124 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: here and really bring the kids, you know, the kids 125 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: to life in part because you know this story. I've 126 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 2: done a lot of stories where I care about the subject, 127 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 2: but it just doesn't hit you the way this. 128 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: One hits do you kids? 129 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: I do, And that's that's what you know. I have 130 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: two beautiful, beautiful daughters. And when this happened in October, no, sorry, 131 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 2: November of twenty two, that was right around the time 132 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: I had one daughter graduating from undergraduate and I had 133 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 2: another daughter graduating from grad school. They both had incredibly positive, 134 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: wonderful college experiences, you know, being a parent, you know, 135 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: my wife and I were very involved in their lives 136 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: as college students, and you know, it's such a wonderful 137 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: time of life and such a time of like, you know, 138 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: you're just coming into your own. And so when I 139 00:07:55,080 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 2: read about this, this senseless, tragic murder from this psychopath. 140 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 2: What we didn't know is a psychopath at first, but 141 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 2: you know, just these senseless killings just really hit home 142 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: for me. So, you know, soon we think about it. 143 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: We sent a crew out to see what we could 144 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 2: start finding and started building relationships. But again, we didn't 145 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: want to rush something out. We wanted to tell the 146 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: complete story, you know, because. 147 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing. 148 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: You know. On the one hand, there's true crime podcasts, 149 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 2: there's I'm making tons of true crime shows. True crime 150 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: is so popular, but I think sometimes people go down 151 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 2: these rabbit holes and speculate on theories and call people 152 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 2: out and say hurtful things, like they're like their characters 153 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 2: in a fictional story of these are real people. 154 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. 155 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 2: I find it, you know. I mean, it's my own fault. 156 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 2: I'm one of the guys who helped make true crime 157 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 2: very popular. I've been doing this for, you know, a 158 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 2: long time. 159 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: I don't think that makes it your fault. I think 160 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 1: that it's you know, humans react to different things in 161 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: different ways. Your intentions sounds like your intentions have been 162 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: quite noble. But I yes, I do think that. I 163 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: was actually speaking with Elisa Donovan yesterday we shared this podcast, 164 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: and she was very excited for me to meet you, 165 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: by the way, but we were talking about what is 166 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: you know, behind the fascination and I wait, let me 167 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: just say something. I think I'm a little excited to 168 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: be talking to you. So I'm sort of skipping all 169 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: over the place, forgive me, But I do want to 170 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: say that I am also the mother who had a 171 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: daughter her senior year of college when this happened. So 172 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: and I'm not positive that that's the reason. I mean, 173 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: these four beautiful young people, I don't mean to imply 174 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: that people without children, you know, that it didn't they 175 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: didn't register it, just like a parent would. But I 176 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: just personally for me, and I was wondering for you. 177 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: It scared me. It just completely freaked me out. 178 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, no, it really hit home for me. 179 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: Me too, me too. So. But I guess I'm wondering 180 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: because we talk about this yesterday, you know, people watching, 181 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: and we're not going to call it that anymore. We're 182 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:08,239 Speaker 1: just going to call it crime documentaries. 183 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 2: I just I just had no I. 184 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: Get it because it's it's about it being entertaining, and 185 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: that's what it is. It's like people say, oh my god, 186 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with true crime. Now these are real people 187 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: whose lives were destroyed and sometimes like the Idaho murders 188 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 1: in the most gruesome of ways. So it does feel 189 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: to me. I will, I'll blame you for this. It's however, 190 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: you know, you put this story together, made it fascinating 191 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: to watch, and I don't know, you know, I like 192 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: when I watch crime documentaries. I like to to pull 193 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: something positive out of it, for instance, family members of 194 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: victims who then are able to be resilient enough to 195 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: band together and create laws, you know, to help other, 196 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: and or just watching the resilience of even the victims 197 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: themselves and being able to somehow grow in some way 198 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: from their experience. So that's I love watching that. 199 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And in particular, you know, in this in 200 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: our series, you see how the family is, particularly the 201 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 2: Gonzalez family, and particularly Olivia Gonzalez, the sister. Just you know, 202 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 2: the way she dresses him down. I don't want to 203 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: spoil it, but the way she dresses him down at 204 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 2: the end of the show when they're giving victim impact 205 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 2: statements is just super powerful. 206 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: You know, I was. I was not the only one. 207 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: We talked about it yesterday, and I know that almost 208 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: everybody you cannot feel that way about her. My question 209 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: to you is, I'm watching that and I'm so impressed 210 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: and sort of proud of her in this way, and 211 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: yet at the same time, and I guess it doesn't 212 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: really matter. She did that for her, But wondering if 213 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: he was even listening, and I just I'm wondering what 214 00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: you think. 215 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 2: You know, who knows, I mean, somebody like him has 216 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 2: no empathy. Somebody like him, you know, I mean classic 217 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 2: serial killer. You know, they think they're the smartest guy 218 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 2: in the room. They want significance, you know, did it 219 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 2: hit him did it make him feel bad? Probably not 220 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 2: as evidence, you know, as evidence by the fact that 221 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 2: he recanted you know, his yeah recently you know, which 222 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 2: I don't think was a you know, which to me 223 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 2: is just another attention grab and probably I mean it 224 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 2: probably sounds arrogant to say, but I think it had 225 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 2: everything to do with the fact that our trailer dropped 226 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 2: and then the next you know, for the show, and 227 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 2: then the next day he made this this pronouncement. I 228 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 2: think he's just looking for attention. 229 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: Well guess what I think. Congratulations to you for giving 230 00:12:50,360 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: him the finger. I'm good with that. You know. We 231 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: talk also about people like Brian. Who are they and 232 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: how do you distinguish someone like him that you don't 233 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: want to necessarily delve into the sickness of his mind 234 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: and maybe even his parents and his upbringing. To me, 235 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: because I've now watched a few of these, there's sometimes 236 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: a difference, maybe it's subtle, between a psychopath like Brian. 237 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: I feel like now I can almost and I'm sure 238 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: that's that I can't but see it as opposed to 239 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: someone like we were talking yesterday about I'm going to 240 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: forget her name because you know, menopause, But the woman who. Recently, 241 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: there's a film out about a woman who killed her 242 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: three children during postpartum right, And so Lisa and I 243 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: were talking about, you know, when does Lindsay Lindsay Clancy? 244 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: What's the difference? And I was, I again, I was. 245 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: I was pleased that we didn't. There wasn't a lot 246 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: of focus on him, and there weren't any excuses for 247 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: his behavior. On the other hand, Lindsey Clancy strangled her 248 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: three babies with exercise ropes, and the defense is saying 249 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 1: it's it's the worst kind of PTSD, and she snapped. 250 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 2: No, I think we have to have room in our 251 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: justice system for compassion for people who have mental illness. 252 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 2: You know that? To me, I mean, on the one hand, 253 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 2: you can argue that all devian acts our mental illness. 254 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 2: But the difference there is, I mean, these children obviously 255 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 2: meant something to her. I don't. I haven't done a 256 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 2: deep dive in the case. I don't know much about 257 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: it other than the headlines. But you know, a mother 258 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: in postpartum depression killing her children to me is very 259 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 2: different than me too. Somebody picking out you know, a 260 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: serial killer picking out strange. 261 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: I agree, I agree, I. 262 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 2: Mean, you know, there's all there's a woman named Dorothy 263 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 2: Lewis who did research on the brains of psychopaths, and 264 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: she believes, and I believe, that there's actually a physical 265 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 2: part of the brain that is missing that allows you 266 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: to have empathy. So I think these, you know, these 267 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 2: are people who lack empathy, you know, and that's why 268 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: they do their thing. A mother going through postpartum or 269 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: somebody snapping, you know, under pressure or whatever. You know, 270 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: there we do need room for compassion for those cases. 271 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: Is that a slippery slope? Right? And when you're choosing 272 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: what to work on, for instance, you know, maybe being 273 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: a dad and having the kids, the eight your kids, 274 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: the age of these victims, and you know, did that 275 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: maybe personally give you less sympathy for the killer in this? 276 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: You know, I'm I'm just trying to figure out for myself. Also, 277 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: why is it so different for me when I watch 278 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: a documentary and I can sort of see a background 279 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: and and what happened to this person? You know? Is it? 280 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: Is it nature or nurture? Yeah, and somebody like this. 281 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: But I had just I have I had absolutely no 282 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: sympathy for him. I wanted, you know, I don't know 283 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: if I wanted the death penalty, I wanted him not 284 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: to plead. I don't know, but I still now all 285 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: I can feel is discussed, right, Yeah. 286 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 2: I think that, you know, trying to find a reason 287 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: why people do evil from their childhood is a slippery slope. Basically. 288 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 2: You know, Ted Bundy actually had a very loving family. 289 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: You know, allegedly he was shocked by the fact when 290 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 2: he learned he was adopted, and that put him into like, 291 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 2: you know, some kind of state of like you know, 292 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: mental duress. But a lot of people find out they're adopted, 293 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 2: become serial a lot. 294 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: Of people are abused, a lot of people go through 295 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: you know, all kinds of trauma. 296 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: Honestly, one of the reasons I've been attracted to crime 297 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 2: storytelling is to explore why people go bad because I 298 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 2: had an abusive childhood. You know, my father beat the 299 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 2: shit out of me, and his father beat the shit 300 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 2: out of him, and I did not have a pleasant childhood. 301 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 2: But I'm the most loving my kids will test. You know, 302 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: I haven't laid a finger on my children ever. You know, 303 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 2: I've had the same first. 304 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: Wife or break the cycle baby. 305 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,479 Speaker 2: Thirty four years I prayed for girls, though I did 306 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 2: pray for girls because you know, I was scared, because 307 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 2: I wanted to break the cycle. You know. So I 308 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 2: got two girls. I've never laid a finger on them. 309 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 2: I've been nothing but a great dad and a great provider. 310 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: And that's just the truth. And my wife would attest 311 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 2: I've never laid a finger on her, you know. So, 312 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 2: like I think trying to make excuses or find excuses 313 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 2: from childhood. I think if people are going to do evil, 314 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:55,479 Speaker 2: they're going to do evil. You know. 315 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: I mean what you're saying resonates with me. And I'm 316 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: not trying to up you or wait me me, but 317 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: same idea. I had an abusive childhood, different type of abuse, whatever, 318 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: But you know, I have siblings, and not that the 319 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: cycle has repeated itself. It really hasn't, I'm proud to say. 320 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: But we all have stuff, thankfully I have. My shrink 321 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: will agree with me that I didn't bring that really 322 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: shitty stuff into our lives, same husband, miraculously all of that. 323 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: So I agree with you. Is my point that I 324 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: don't think that that's an excuse, right. A shitty childhood, 325 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: a shitty upbringing. I just I'm just really curious because 326 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: I feel as if there is a subtle difference. And 327 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: sometimes I feel like I can tell between a psychopath 328 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: a sociopath anybody that is murdering somebody who's murdering someone. 329 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: I could easily say, oh, that's a psychopath. But again, 330 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: you know, in certain cases it's like, oh, she snapped. 331 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: I don't know always the difference. 332 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: You know, No, I mean it's I'm you know, I'm 333 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 2: not a psychiatrist. But you know, sometimes it is important to, 334 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 2: you know, focus on the killer and why they kill 335 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 2: and how they kill, because you know, I think we 336 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 2: delude ourselves. You know. The the thing I've learned in 337 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: covering crime over the years is that it's the people 338 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,959 Speaker 2: you least expect and most often trust that often are 339 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 2: the people who do terrible things. You know. We want 340 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 2: to think that the serial killer is always evil and 341 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 2: he emerges from the shadow with like blood dripping from 342 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 2: his fangs, and like he's very identifiable in society, because 343 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: that gives you the false comfort that you can identify 344 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 2: right right somebody and avoid the fate of becoming a victim. 345 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 2: But the truth is, most of these people, unless you're acting, uh, 346 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 2: you know, the way Brian Koberger acted, which was totally secretly. 347 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 2: But most people who do evil, whether it's a priest 348 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 2: who commits pedophilia, which is the most horrible violation of 349 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,479 Speaker 2: trust one could imagine, or Bernie made off, you know, 350 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 2: who pretended to be a wonderful that I did, I 351 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 2: did off, you know, but stealing people's money, or somebody 352 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 2: like Ted Bundy had lots of friends, you know. One 353 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: of the reasons I did. I did a movie with 354 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 2: zach Efron and Lily Collins about called Extremely Wicked, which 355 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 2: is through which is through Bundy's point of sorry, which 356 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 2: is through Lily Collins' character's point of view. The girlfriend 357 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 2: who was Bundy had totally gas lit and she believed 358 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 2: he was a wonderful guy. She had a daughter who 359 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 2: looked up to Ted Bundy as a wonderful surrogate father 360 00:20:55,240 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: figure lived in that same house. So these people sometimes, 361 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 2: I think, depending on the circumstance, it is important to 362 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 2: do the portrait of the killer so that especially younger people, 363 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 2: you know, my kids were sitting around the Thanksgiving table 364 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, around the time I was contemplating doing 365 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 2: both Bundy shows. I did conversations with the killer the 366 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 2: Ted Bundy tapes, which was about the mind of the killer, 367 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 2: and we had these very revealing tapes that explained his motivation, 368 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 2: why he did what he did. And then I did 369 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 2: the movie six months later. Just a coincidence. I did both. 370 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 2: It's a long story that I won't bore you with. 371 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 2: But you know, it's not like it was not by 372 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 2: design that I said, oh, let me do two Bundy things. 373 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: I would like to hear the story. I know, if 374 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: you didn't have to go, believe me, it wouldn't bore me. 375 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: But I mean, maybe we'll go there in a minute. 376 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,719 Speaker 2: But just to make just to make the point, you know, 377 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 2: we were sitting around the table and I said to 378 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: my kids, because up until that point, I you know, 379 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: most of my crime, you know, And I guess this 380 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 2: is where I get the baggage a little bit of 381 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 2: like being sensitive about being called true crime. Up until 382 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: that point, most of my explorations of crime was wrongful conviction. 383 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: Like I'm a very big wrongful conviction advocate. My film 384 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 2: Paradise Lost, you know, literally got three teenagers out of 385 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 2: one on to you know, I had another show called 386 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: wrong Man. You know, I mean, the thing I'm most 387 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 2: proud of in my career is I've gotten seven people 388 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 2: my work. Wow, gotten seven people out of prison? Who 389 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 2: are you? 390 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: Don't have to ever do another good thing. 391 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 2: I know there's a place in heaven for me, and 392 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 2: I should say that. You know, I'm the front man 393 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: for a lot of people who have done a lot 394 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 2: of important work. But anyway, so you know, most of 395 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 2: my crime focus was on wrongful conviction and then I 396 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 2: did the Bundee tapes and it exploded on that Netflix, 397 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 2: and of course they want what's successful. So I've been 398 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 2: on the serial killer jag for the last six years. 399 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 2: But before I pivoted to doing like pure serial killer, 400 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 2: I was sitting around the Thanksgiving table with my kids 401 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: and I said, I'm contemplating doing the show about Ted 402 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 2: Bundy these tapes, but it's very graphic, and I'm just 403 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 2: I have mixed feelings. And I said to my kids, 404 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 2: what do you what do you do you guys? What 405 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 2: do you guys think of Ted Bundy as a subject? 406 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 2: And literally, you know, my younger daughter was at MIT 407 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 2: and my older daughter had just trusted. My older daughter 408 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: had just graduated from Columbia, so both very very bright 409 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 2: young women, and you know, in their early twenties. Neither 410 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 2: one of them knew who Ted Bundy was. And I said, oh, 411 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 2: that's interesting. Please, you know, text your friends and see 412 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 2: if they know. Literally, no one in that age group 413 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 2: knew who Ted but one one person said, isn't he 414 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 2: a baseball player? You know? Well, nobody knew who he was? 415 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 2: And so I thought, okay, I think using Netflix as 416 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 2: a platform, which is global and reaches a young demographic, 417 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 2: what is the lesson of Ted Bundy that just because 418 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 2: somebody is charming and good looking, it doesn't mean you 419 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: should trust them. That's an important message to put out 420 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 2: into the world. So that was my reason for getting 421 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 2: into the serial killer thing is that, you know, we think, 422 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 2: as I was saying before, we think that serial killers 423 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 2: like look like serial killers all the time and just 424 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: you know, you just know how to avoid them. But 425 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 2: most of the time, the people who do bad things, 426 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 2: you know, gain your trust and you think they're good people. 427 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 2: And I wanted to warn my daughter's generation about that. 428 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 2: That was the reason I chose zach Efron to you know, 429 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 2: it was a very conversial choice at the time, and 430 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 2: people thought it was stunt casting and I'm romanticizing a 431 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: serial No, I'm zac Efron for a certain age group, 432 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 2: you know, for the twenty to twenty four year old 433 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 2: women at that time. He's somebody who could do no wrong. 434 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 2: He's somebody who girls feel they know and trust. And 435 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 2: so if you want to portray dramatically the whole idea 436 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 2: of how serial killers gaslight their victims into thinking they're 437 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: good people, you know that younger audience who doesn't, who 438 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 2: aren't really that familiar with Bundy. To me, I thought 439 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 2: they would take this journey on this movie where he's, 440 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: you know, Lily Collins' character, the girlfriend thinks he's innocent 441 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 2: and he's proclaiming his innocence and then at the end 442 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 2: you realize he actually is a serial killer. I wanted 443 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 2: that young audience to have that emotional reaction of being 444 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 2: gas lit themselves, to portray that they how they do. 445 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 2: It wasn't like an attempt to glamorize the serial kid. 446 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: Of course not. Let me tell you something, my friend, 447 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: if my daughter met a zac Efron type, I don't 448 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: know that she would be as discerning or as careful 449 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: as I would like for her to be. Period. So 450 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: I think that message is amazing, right, especially for young girls. 451 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: And I was a young girl. If it had been 452 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: me and somebody that looked like zach Efron had paid 453 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: attention to me, I would have forgiven a lot. I 454 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: would have overseen a lot. Yeah, So I mean, I 455 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 1: think that's so important. 456 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 2: And in this case, and look, just to be clear 457 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 2: to the listener, you know, I produced the Idaho murders, 458 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 2: but sky Borgman was the director, so I should give 459 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 2: her lots of the credit. You know. She really wanted 460 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 2: to focus and I agreed, you know, wanted to focus 461 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 2: on the families. And in part the reason we wanted 462 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 2: to focus on the families is there was just so 463 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 2: much misinformation out there and accusatory comments, you. 464 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: Know, mainly around the girls not calling nine. 465 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 2: One one I'm like that and other things. 466 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: You know. 467 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 2: It's like, you know, I did a show two years 468 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: ago on John Benet Ramsey, you know, because people still 469 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: are obsessed with this incredibly false and dangerous and mean 470 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 2: they still are this mean idea that the parents involved 471 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 2: and that the nine year old at the time brother somehow, 472 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 2: you know, did these horrible crimes. And if you just 473 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 2: look at the autopsy report and you dig into like 474 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 2: how this poor girl actually died. It's absurd and yet 475 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 2: and so I went out of my way to tell 476 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: to show what I think is what happened, and how 477 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 2: the parents are innocent, and yet on readit all these 478 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 2: people like calling out Burke still to this day. And 479 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 2: that's what I find a little painful and trouble about 480 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 2: the genre. I mean, the genre has obviously exploded in 481 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 2: this you know, look, people have always On the one hand, 482 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 2: I think it's more popular than ever, But on the 483 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 2: other hand, it really isn't. It's just the documentary and 484 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 2: podcasting has become the delivery mechanism. I mean, everyone has 485 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 2: been fascinated with crime since you know. I mean Shakespeare 486 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 2: was writing about crime, you know, and you know, in 487 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 2: the thirties you could. 488 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: Buy Shakespeare wasn't talking about real people. Well well, let 489 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: me just go back for a moment. 490 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 2: Well, yes and no, but more contemporary examples. In the 491 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 2: nineteenth century you could buy tickets at public hangings and 492 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 2: they would sell out. The thirties, buy souvenir programs, you know, 493 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: at famous murder trials, and people like wrong with us, 494 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 2: you know, So we've always been interested in crime. You know. 495 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 2: In the fifties there was ten thousand true detective pocket 496 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 2: book paperbacks and magazines like you know, in the sixties, 497 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 2: a whole new genre of literature called the nonfiction novel 498 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 2: with Truman Capodis in Cold Blood was created in that 499 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 2: you know, the onion feel by Joseph Wambag and you know, 500 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 2: there's just that that was the delivery mechanism then. Now 501 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 2: documentary and podcasting has become so popular that, of course 502 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: a popular genre called true crime is benefiting from the 503 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 2: general rise in pot But I don't think we're any 504 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 2: more interested in crime then then in the past. But 505 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: what's different is this people go on these you know, 506 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 2: you know, Reddit and go down these rabbit holes, and 507 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 2: it's so easy to like talk about stuff, which is good, 508 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 2: but it's also mean. 509 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,479 Speaker 1: I think, well, I one hundred percent agree. And I 510 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: also when I posted that I actually don't think that 511 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: Scott Peterson is guilty anymore. You can't imagine the backlash online. 512 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: How dare I do that to Lacy's parents? And I 513 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: watched this documentary. I'm sorry, and I am I that 514 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: is how I feel, and I don't apologize for it, right, 515 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: And I knew John Benny's parents didn't do it, and 516 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: there was so much evidence, and I it must be 517 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: so frustrating for you, right, I just. 518 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 2: Try to ignore it. I just, you know, I just 519 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 2: feel bad for the people involved, you know, like Burke 520 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 2: Ramsey was scarred by all the decades of accusation. John Ramsey, 521 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 2: who's you know eighty one, has become a good friend 522 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 2: of mine, and you know, I so admire him. He 523 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 2: just stoically has withstood all of this backlash towards him 524 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: and still to this day keeps hammering. You know, why 525 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: would a guilty guy keep hammering the Boulder the very 526 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 2: inept Bolder Police department to retest items from the crime 527 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 2: scene because DNA technology has so changed that it's you know, 528 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 2: and there are certain items from the crime scene that 529 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 2: were never tested, and the Boulder police just keep refusing 530 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 2: and obfuse, skating and not even even though they make 531 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 2: these promises. You know, It's just I mean, can you 532 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 2: imagine he's you know, this guy lost his first child 533 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 2: in a car accident when she was in her early twenties, 534 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 2: I believe, and then John Beney came along shortly thereafter 535 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 2: as kind of the magic you know, gift to help 536 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 2: him get over the death. Of his daughter from another marriage, 537 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 2: and then this daughter dies in the most horrific way, 538 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 2: and then they're blamed for it, and the pressure of 539 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 2: being blamed in the in the in the horrible treatment 540 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 2: by the media that they received, caused Patsy Ramsey's cancer 541 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 2: to come back and she died of cancer. I mean, 542 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 2: and he's withstood all of that, you know. And so 543 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 2: these what people say online and how people consume this stuff, 544 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 2: and look, I make it and they consume it. Look, 545 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 2: I'm proud, hey, number one show on Netflix whatever, but 546 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 2: on the so like, so I'm being a little hypocritical 547 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 2: and criticizing it, but I just wish people would consume 548 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 2: this stuff in a different way, you know. 549 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: I don't think that's hypocritical. I think that in terms 550 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: of what you do and what Sky does, there are 551 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: there are those documentaries that reach eighteen million people, and 552 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: it's because of a lot I think of factors. Sometimes 553 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: the story, although it's been told before, but there is 554 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: a lot that goes on here, and there is cinematography 555 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: and there is the sound of the whole thing, and 556 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: that captures us whether or not it's about real people. 557 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: But you do put that in right, I mean, there 558 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: is a certain amount of art that goes along with this. 559 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: This is not you know, just watching ABC News tell 560 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: a story. It's also obviously the connection with the victims 561 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: and their families, which is another question I have for you. 562 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: But these these poor parents and sisters, and and is 563 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: it is it hard to get their trust because of 564 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: like what's happened before the way that maybe they don't 565 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: they're not thrilled with how the story has been told before. 566 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 2: It wasn't time sometimes. I mean I actually was the 567 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 2: one who got the access to the families, and originally 568 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: I was going to direct the show, but I had 569 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 2: a scheduled conflict, and so I thought Sky. You know, 570 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 2: I admire her as a filmmaker, so I thought Sky 571 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 2: was and she did a great job, you know, like 572 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 2: did so you know, I brought Sky in after I 573 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 2: had gotten the initial contact, but then she did an 574 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 2: amazing job getting you know, building the relationship and getting 575 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 2: more people involved, and you know, so I give her 576 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 2: all the credit in the world. But uh, you know, 577 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 2: I always I'm so pompous, but I always try to 578 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 2: you know, I believe what you put out in the 579 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 2: world comes back to you. I'm a big believer in karma, 580 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 2: and you know, I always try to leave a place 581 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 2: that I visit filmley speaking better than when I got there. 582 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 2: And I try to treat all people with respect, and 583 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 2: so I think that has stood me in good stead. 584 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 2: Like you know, the judge from Paradise Lost wanted to 585 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 2: speak to the judge from Brothers Keeper to see if 586 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 2: we had, you know, how we had comported. So, like 587 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: you know, I'm not a slash and burn filmmaker, and 588 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 2: I think, you know, you have to put care in 589 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 2: your human interactions and what you put out in the 590 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 2: world that comes back to you. I'm just a big 591 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 2: believer in that. So people seem to, you know, trust 592 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 2: us and allow us to tell their stories. And I 593 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 2: can't say that everyone I've ever told a story about, 594 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 2: you know, hasn't had an issue here or there. Because 595 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 2: it's hard to see yourself on TV and people have 596 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 2: so and expectations what they. 597 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: Want in what they want out. There's editing involved. I'm 598 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: sure that's. 599 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 2: Hard, yeah, But generally speaking, you know, I haven't found 600 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 2: it that hard to get access to stories because I 601 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 2: conduct myself in a certain way and you know my record, 602 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 2: you know, it's easier and easier because of my track record. 603 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 2: But you just have to treat people with respect. I mean, 604 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 2: it's just so basic, and there's so many people in 605 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,359 Speaker 2: this business. It's just like slash and burn, get what 606 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 2: I need and not thinking about the consequences. 607 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: You're also at a point now where I'm thinking you 608 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: can pick and choose, and you know, I don't know, 609 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: You're probably very careful in terms of what you know 610 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: you do pick and the people that do in the 611 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: cases that do speak to you. 612 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, look, I'm lucky in that 613 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 2: I do get to pick and choose. I don't have 614 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,280 Speaker 2: to work, which is nice. I mean, I'm working because 615 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: I like, I don't know what I would do if 616 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 2: I wasn't working. So yeah, if you're going to spend 617 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 2: two years on a project, in this case, four years, 618 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 2: you want to make sure it's That's why I said 619 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 2: at the beginning, you know, I don't want to tell 620 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 2: the story unless I feel I'm doing more than just 621 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 2: telling a story. You know, what needle can I move? 622 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 2: What what message can I put out there? And for 623 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 2: this we really wanted to return the focus to the families, 624 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 2: to remind people that you know, these are real people 625 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,760 Speaker 2: and the impact on the you know, the news itself 626 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 2: about the case is the information is out there. But 627 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 2: what is special about the show is we wanted to 628 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 2: have a wider lens see how, you know, how the 629 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 2: media treated the case, See how it impacted the community, 630 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 2: see how it impacted loved ones. I mean, I think 631 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 2: in part because I want to remind people, and Sky 632 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 2: wanted to remind people. These are real people. And so 633 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 2: when you go on read it and like accuse the 634 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 2: roommates of not calling and you know, like think twice 635 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,399 Speaker 2: about that kind of action. 636 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: Let me ask you something we talked about at the beginning. 637 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: How you think it's arrogant? But I think the timing 638 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 1: is very interesting in terms of him changing his plea. Yeah, 639 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: I hope you feel the same way I do. Like 640 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: that's just a waste of his fucking time. 641 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just this guy is guilty as sin, 642 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 2: you know. And look, I'm a wrongful conviction advocate, and 643 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,799 Speaker 2: I you know, I don't say those words lightly when 644 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,439 Speaker 2: I feel somebody is guilty. But I'm like, and that's 645 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 2: the fascinating You know, I'm old enough and have been 646 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 2: doing this long enough that it just fascinates me now 647 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 2: at all the digital breadcrumbs that any case leaves behind. 648 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 2: I mean, I think these investigators did a terrific job. 649 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 2: You know, the the ring camera foot is, the surveillance camera, 650 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 2: the genetic geniulogy, you know, but like the digital footprint 651 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 2: we now leave and that people are able to put together. 652 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 2: It's also another great doc on Netflix called The Perfect 653 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 2: Neighbor also was made entirely with you know, a body camp. 654 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,959 Speaker 2: It's called The Perfect Neighbor by Guida Ganbier, and it's 655 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 2: just an incredible film neighbor shooting a kid, you know, 656 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 2: and it's all called in Surveillance State. I mean, it's 657 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 2: really quite good. So these these digits, you know, the 658 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 2: digital footprint that we leave is relatively new and fascinating, 659 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 2: and so these I think the police department did a 660 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 2: great job. Where I disagree, and it relates to the 661 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 2: plea deal. Where I disagree with them is they should 662 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 2: not have consummated that plea deal without the parents. I 663 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 2: find that a terrible decision. I'm sure they have their reasons, 664 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 2: and I I also think, you know, Coburger was kind 665 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 2: of in charge because he didn't have to admit what 666 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 2: he did other than taking the plead deal or provide details, 667 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 2: and that you know, that's so painful for the families 668 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,839 Speaker 2: not to know, Like I'm not. That is my one criticism. 669 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: You know, they really that they should have had to say. 670 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: I mean, listen, there's a part of me that thinks 671 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: a lifetime in maximum security is worse than the death penalty. 672 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think he would have almost gotten 673 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: off easy. But that's just a personal opinion. It didn't 674 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It matters how the parents felt about it, 675 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: and the you know, in these links. 676 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 2: You know, I mean, it's a tough thing because I'm 677 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 2: virulently anti death penalty, but not from a morality standpoint, 678 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 2: like I don't want to and I have I don't 679 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,720 Speaker 2: want to look into the eyes of a mother who's 680 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 2: lost a loved one or a child to a murderer 681 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,760 Speaker 2: and tell her she doesn't have the right to feel 682 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 2: like the only closure for her as if that person 683 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 2: is put to death. Like so I don't want to 684 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 2: take I don't want to. You know a lot of 685 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 2: people talk about the death penalty from a moral standpoint. 686 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 2: I don't even want to go there because you don't 687 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 2: have to get to the moral argument. If you understand, 688 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 2: I firmly believe that five percent of our prison population 689 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 2: are wrongfully convicted people. 690 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: And that's the bottom line. One person is wrongfully convicted. 691 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: I get it. 692 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 2: We have the highest incarceration rate in the world. We 693 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 2: have five percent of the population on the planet and 694 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 2: twenty five percent of the inmates. I mean, that's a 695 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 2: that's a sobering. 696 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: Statistic, and it's crazy. 697 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 2: There's two million people in prison approximately, and five percent 698 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 2: of them, which all wrongful conviction experts agree, is a 699 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 2: pretty reliable figure. That means there's one hundred thousand people 700 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 2: in prison. Some of them are on death row. And 701 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 2: so the murder of one innocent person, just one, it 702 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 2: makes it more apprehensible to have a deathiculty. 703 00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: So you know, and now you're the person who pulled 704 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: the plug. I don't know. It's it's all of that. 705 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: So I agree with you. They're telling me you have 706 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: to wrap, but I just maybe you can't tell me. 707 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: I don't think Skuy couldlast im? Can you tell me 708 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: what you're working on? 709 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 2: Well, in this instance, I can tell you I have 710 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 2: another show coming out very soon. Normally Netflix, when we're 711 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 2: working on stuff, we're I'm allowed to talk about it 712 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 2: until it comes out, but I on August twelfth, I 713 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,320 Speaker 2: have the another season of Conversations with the Killer. It's 714 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 2: actually Netflix is one of their longest running series. It's 715 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 2: this season, but this is the final season and we're 716 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 2: doing we have new audio recordings from Charles Manson, so 717 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 2: we're doing Charles Manson Conversations with the Killers. 718 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: To Charles Manson's granddaughter, I just, yeah. 719 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,800 Speaker 2: Eager to see that show. I haven't had that film. 720 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 2: I haven't seen it yet, but you know, this, this 721 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 2: is this is the telling of the Manson story with 722 00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 2: these audio tapes, and it's the final season of our show. 723 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:01,920 Speaker 2: We're going to kind of put it to bed after this, 724 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 2: and I wanted to focus on Manson in part because 725 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,840 Speaker 2: tapes emerged that were interesting, but also to me, Charles 726 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 2: Manson is like the big bang of our of our 727 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 2: current media obsession with true crime. You know, how the 728 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 2: case was covered and how we consume stories of murder 729 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 2: fundamentally changed from that case. So it's kind of you know, 730 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 2: I think, as I said, you know, it was like 731 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 2: a very foundational story in the history of the explosion 732 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 2: of true crime storytelling. 733 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: Another one that you know, I was a certain age, 734 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: you were a certain age, and I just remember being 735 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: afraid for my mother that they were going to come 736 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,359 Speaker 1: for her because I don't know if she had long, 737 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: dark hair whatever, But that one, you know, there there 738 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: are there are certain that certain ones that just change. 739 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,240 Speaker 1: I feel like the landscape a little bit. But Okay, 740 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: really appreciate you. Nice talking to you and you congratulations. 741 00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 2: Thank you. Take care,