1 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: I'm Caroline Hyde in New York and this is Rumberg 2 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: Technology coming up in the next hour, the ft X fallout. 3 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: It continues, sam Anguin Freed steps down as CEO, laying 4 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: out as well the timeline for his company's bankruptcy. We're 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 1: going to dive into the implications for cryptocurrencies at large 6 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: and the future of the underlying technology. Plus, Twitter suspended 7 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: it's eight dollar subscription program to combat and growing problem 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: of user impersonating major brands. More on the revenue strategy 9 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: in a moment, And the text space is under a 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: major restructuring, but you never know it looking at the markets, 11 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: and that's like One just notched its biggest two day 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: record run in nine up nine, the best since two 13 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: thousand and eight. Even though we see the meta layoffs, 14 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,959 Speaker 1: even though we see Amazon looking at trimming its workforce. 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: Not to mention Dizzy me just now, we'll get to 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: all of that in by a moment. At first, Let's 17 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: stick with you, our audience, because we asked you to 18 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: admit the myriad of news that we're just hearing from Emily, 19 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: the fact that we have these layoffs, the fact that 20 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: we have f t X imploding, the fact that of 21 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: course we still have this run up in stocks. What 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: was the most important thing that caught your eye? You 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: took to Twitter. You told us knew it wasn't Twitter. No, 24 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: it wasn't Meta. It was f t X bankruptcy. That 25 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: is what rocked your world the most. Didn't rock our own, 26 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: Katie Greifeld's world the most. Is it the biggest shocker 27 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: for you? Katie? It was the biggest shocker? I would say. 28 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: I think back to who I was a week ago 29 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: last for a different post. I was so young, I 30 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: was so naive. I didn't know that f t X 31 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: was on sale. You had told me that we would 32 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: see f t X, the crypto exchange, one of the 33 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: biggest players in this space file for bankruptcy. I would 34 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: not have believed you if you would have told me 35 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: to that bitcoin would be trading around seventeen thousand dollars 36 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: a coin after that too, I want to believed that 37 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: either it's you obviously have seen a really rocky crypto 38 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: a market this week, a little bit of resilience, though 39 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: I don't know's We're not talking about ten thousand, we're 40 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: talking about seventeen. And then therefore, let's talk about the 41 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: ripple effects, the contagion concerns, the issue that therefore we 42 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: see across the rest of the markets, because that's sort 43 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: of where we're going with this, the fact that for 44 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: once the correlations broke down, yes you still have the 45 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 1: shock and all when it comes to ft X and 46 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: the rest of the crypto space, But actually that didn't 47 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: hold bout the NASTAC and was that something people were 48 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: talking about, not at all. It's really this is playing 49 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: out in the most dramatic way possible in markets in 50 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: that on the upside, you have the NASZAC one hundred, 51 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: what looking at one of its best weeks and years, 52 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: Like you said that headline at the top, it's best 53 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: two day run since two thousand and eight. It's interesting 54 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: because previously, until really this week, stocks and crypto were 55 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: tied at the hip. It was the same exact trade. 56 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: To really the detriment of the bitcoin bulls, the crypto 57 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: bulls that I would talk to, they would say, this decoupling, 58 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: when it happens from the equity market, it will be 59 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: such a relief for the crypto market. The decoupling happened, 60 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: it was not bolish for crypto at all, and man 61 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: tech stocks just really ripping after that CPI report. And 62 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: what's interesting though, of course, amid all of this is 63 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: the concerns about the tech layoffs, is the issue of 64 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: the fact that suddenly we're in a different, different paradigm 65 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: right now where companies that we thought were no matter what, 66 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: unstoppable and now having to trim themselves. We're just getting 67 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: the latest headline as the CNBC headline. We know from 68 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: Disney that they're looking at freezes, maybe even job cuts. 69 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: We saw it from Meta, the biggest layoffs that we've 70 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: ever seen in its history. Is that something that we 71 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: should prepare ourselves more for what we've got yet further 72 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: earnings next week for example. I mean, these are the 73 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: type of headlines that are unfortunately pretty common when you 74 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: have the FED hiking so aggressively. This is the impact 75 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: of tightening financial conditions. These are the sort of news 76 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: events that we unfortunately have to get used to. And 77 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: when you contrast that with what we're seeing in the markets, 78 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: this really goes to show sort of the cold blooded 79 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: nature of markets, that forward looking sort of stance of 80 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: markets that okay, when you start to see these type 81 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: of headlines, when you start to see the impact of 82 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: these fed rate hikes. Maybe that closer gets us closer 83 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: to the end destination. And you pair that again with 84 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: the CPI print that we've got a seven handle, nothing 85 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: to celebrate, but cooler than expected. That maybe gets us 86 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: closer to the end destination, maybe closer to that pivot. 87 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: As I read for many though, this market is kind 88 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: of dangerous now, and the fact that Jonathan God himself 89 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: a real bull saying that was an overreaction one to 90 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: bear in mind as we digest the data that's still 91 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: to come over the next week or so. Kitty Greifeld 92 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: a different person from one week ago. We thank hers 93 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: so much. Meanwhile, sticking on the crypto fallout, let's talk 94 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: about f t X. Let's talk about the rippling across 95 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: the entire ecosystem here, but in by his utually Yang 96 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: is with us on the story. I've seen your byline 97 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: on every single piece of update that we've been having. 98 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: You must be exhausted, but probably not as exhausted as 99 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: man whose wealth went from sixteen billion to zero this week? 100 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: What are you? What is the next knock on effect? 101 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: What are we hearing and waiting for? In terms of 102 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: the news about the bankruptcy for example. Of course, the 103 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: bankruptcy news itself is a huge shocker for the industry. 104 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: No one has seen this coming me neither. When I 105 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: started the week, I did not know this is how 106 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,919 Speaker 1: it's going to all pan out. We're starting to see 107 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: some contagion effect coming out. We know that for example, Voyager, 108 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: which is a bankrupt lender earlier on that was supposed 109 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: to be bailed out by f t X, they now 110 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: had to restart their biding process essentially because of this 111 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: bankruptcy procedure for for f t X. And then at 112 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: the same time, even for a big crypto market makers 113 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: such as Genesis, they have money that's being trapped in 114 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: their training account on ft X, and then they had 115 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: to get capital infusion for from their parent group DCG. 116 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: So we're expecting to see more companies coming out to 117 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: this close UH the impact, and we know from the 118 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: bankruptcy foulding itself, at least for Alameda, there's a hundred 119 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: thousand creditors listed and their library is UH is at 120 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,799 Speaker 1: least to be over ten billion dollars. So the size 121 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: and scope should not be understated. It is the biggest 122 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: bankruptcy we're seeing this year. Extraordinary really and therefore the 123 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: full from grace of Sam Batman freed himself, there will 124 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: be movies written, that will be books. Of course, the 125 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: investigations that now continue into him and into what indeed 126 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 1: has occurred. Is that going to be happening in the 127 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: same time frame as we do understand who the creditors are, 128 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: where do you think the sort of the books are 129 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: going to stop dropping? So for investigations usually they're lagging behind. 130 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: But we do know that US regulators are investigating them. 131 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: Whether the conclusion will come out soon, that's uncertain. And 132 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: from UM and then a same bankman free himself is 133 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: also being investigated by the SEC as we reported yesterday. UM, 134 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: so we're going to see UM a lot of angry 135 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: customers and as a result of out of angry regulators 136 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 1: all over the world as well. Just looking at the 137 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: implications for this event. As many say, the lawyers are 138 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: really the only people that win in these scenarios. When 139 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: you've had more than five million customers, that's going to 140 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: be torturous process of unfolding this. How many people are 141 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: telling you at the moment that there are further counterparties 142 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: to go, that there is further We've already heard from 143 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: the sequoias of this world, for example, marking down there 144 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: their value the overall holding to zero. We've already seen 145 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: what SoftBank's implication was. Who we worried about? Are we were? 146 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: You mentioned Genesis for example. UM. So it is still 147 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: too early to say who's going to be, which company 148 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: is going to be the next one tool far completely um, 149 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: but I think there's one point that we should be 150 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: hopefully um more hopeful about for the industry, which is 151 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: um comparing to the event in April when the industry 152 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: has a huge leverage event are from the terror collapse. 153 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: The cryptal industry today is um much smaller than back then, 154 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: and then a lot of the lenders have already delivered. UM. 155 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: So this is not not a good news. It is 156 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: a one to a punch. But at the same time, 157 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: the industry is already downside significantly from the beginning of 158 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: the year. Lunar Voyagers, Celsius ft X. I'm sure for 159 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: many they hope that there's some calming after that. Ang me, 160 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: thank hers so much. Let's talk about Twitter suspending. It 161 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: is a dollar subscription program that was launched just earlier 162 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: this week that in an effort to combat a growing 163 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: problem of users, of course impersonating major brands, maybe major 164 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: people as well. It's all according to people familiar with 165 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: the move at the moment, and I'm pleased to stay 166 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: across it all and rather exhausted. Is Alex Barrinka. Thank 167 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us for a few moments, Alex, 168 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: and just talk to us at the moment about what 169 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: seems to be the u turns that are going on. 170 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: Is this sort of a startup culture once again with 171 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: the CEO just throwing things against the world is single sticks. 172 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: I think my neck and maybe a lot of others 173 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: are hurting with all the whip blash we've seen already 174 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: this week, in the first week that Elon Musk has 175 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: been at the helm of this business. This subscription move 176 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: is one of those things they rolled out, this idea, 177 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: this eight dollar subscription to get more users. Having this 178 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,239 Speaker 1: an infamous blue check um that used to signify veracity 179 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: of an account and now has been impersonated by the 180 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: likes of folks pretending to be drug maker Eli Lily 181 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: saying insulin is now free. It's not um to government 182 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: accounts of governments and politicians, so kind of a big 183 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 1: uproar here because um, it all plays into the kind 184 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: of proliferation of misinformation that we've seen on the platform 185 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: before that in a free Elon Musk world, Twitter really 186 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: tried to lock down on but in just five business 187 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 1: days time, it seems like, um, the misinformation, whether it's 188 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: ingest or more serious, has started to really play a 189 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: bigger role on that platform. And then let's took us 190 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: through Actually the irony of this per aferation of businesses 191 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: that aren't actually those businesses getting these tacks is because 192 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: Elon Musk himself wanted to move away from an advertising 193 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: model because he was less. He was more concerned about 194 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: those businesses not advertising because they're worried about the fake 195 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: news factor and turning to a subscription model. But he's 196 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: also been talking about other things within the business model, 197 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: maybe becoming a checking account provider. I mean, what are 198 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: we hearing from this man in the leadership levels right 199 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: now about the direction of travel for the business. Yeah, sources, 200 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 1: I've told um Bloomberg that they're looking for these fifty 201 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: revenue to come from subscriptions. Elon Musk, remember came from PayPal. Um. 202 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: He has talked about payments could you send money to people. 203 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: Could we give everyone ten dollars to start having people 204 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: send money to other people via the platform. So it 205 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: seems like they're pushing some of these ideas really quickly. Um, 206 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: it seems like they're potentially pushing some of these ideas 207 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: before they thought through all of the implications, with the 208 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: with the blue check verification, the subscription issue being the 209 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: lead one. Now I want to underpin just how important 210 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: this is for Elon Musk to figure out how to 211 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: bring in more money and get this right, he told 212 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 1: employees in the past twenty four hours. He threw out 213 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: the word bankruptcy. If we don't figure out how to 214 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: make subscriptions work, the company could be in dire straits 215 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: from a revenue perspective. So lots of pressure to figure 216 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,839 Speaker 1: out what is the thing. But it seems like kind 217 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: of the darts they're throwing at the board really quickly 218 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: this past week are not landing in a way that's 219 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: keeping Twitter a place that people and brands and governments 220 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: want to spend their time. Alex, it's in a motive 221 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: and a difficult question. But when I'm looking at Pommy Elson, 222 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: our opinion writer over in London, who's saying that basically 223 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: we might be watching two to implode in real time, 224 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: and that some are kind of debating as to whether 225 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: he's purposely running this business into the ground. How many 226 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: people are sort of echoing those concerns. If you spend 227 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: time on Twitter, you've seen that question posed in the 228 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: context of Okay, he remember he is very confidently talking 229 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: about how he's going to change the platform and reignite 230 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 1: freef speech at the HELM. But it was only weeks 231 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: ago that he was saying he did not want to 232 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: own this asset at So when you think about the 233 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: thirteen billion in debt that this company now has from 234 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: being taken private, the thirty seven hundred employees were fired 235 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: who are now getting severance paid out, UM, throwing around 236 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: that idea of bankruptcy is something that, you know, uh, 237 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: could be a knock on of of what could he do. 238 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: I will remind you that Elon Musk with Tesla and SpaceX. 239 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: In the context of those companies, he's also thrown out 240 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: that b word of bankruptcy. Ellen has proven himself not 241 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 1: to be the typical CEO who maybe would avoid that 242 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: um for for fear of stoking kind of UM bad 243 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: bad fears within a company, but he has used this 244 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: language before, so with him, perhaps there is a little 245 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: bit of more of a wait and see if this 246 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: is something that he truly believes, um that the company 247 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: has head in that direction quickly, or if it is, 248 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: maybe it's motivation tactic or something of that sort of 249 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: internally to get folks to figure out an ex place 250 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: to make some more money and make them do that 251 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: from the office with no free food, which is just 252 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: a minor detail in what is a very complex story. 253 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: Alex Sperenca, we thank you so much for their latest 254 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: and let's now continue this conversation from an e commerce 255 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: perspective as well from a trust perspective. We've got a 256 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 1: real expert for you, Rachel Typograph, CEO and founder of 257 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: make map. It's a global ecommerce enabling and analytics platform 258 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: for multi channel brands, huge brands that depend on you 259 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: to understand where should I be putting my money to 260 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: work when it comes to spending to advertising to social media? 261 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: What are you seeing in terms of media traffic at 262 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: the moment. What are your numbers telling you about how 263 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: fearful they are of Twitter or how much it's useful 264 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: for them at the moment. Yeah, absolutely. I mean right now, 265 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: I feel like we're living a movie about social media, 266 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: and except this time it's a different platform. In the 267 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: last thirty days, we've seen a seventy five decline in 268 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 1: Twitter traffic, seventy five of which of that decline happened 269 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: since October, which is when Ellen took ownership over Twitter. 270 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: And just talk through that traffic drop, what is that meaning? 271 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: That is meaning that you know, the companies that you're 272 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: talking to, you just don't want to be anywhere near 273 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: affiliated they they're not posting on it, they're not putting 274 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: out their products center or it's more people on interacting 275 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: with them because they're so distracted by other things that 276 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: are on the platform right now. Yeah, So at Nickmack, 277 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: we get trafficked through national digital media across all major 278 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: social platforms, and so when we see the client in traffic, 279 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: it means that ad spend is being paused. The thing 280 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: about advertising is that it's very easy to turn on 281 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: and off, and so while things are so volatile right now, 282 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: it's better for advertisers to take a back seat then 283 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: expose their brand reputation. I was just speaking with the 284 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: m X CEO Steve Square yesterday and he was talking 285 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: about how where they put their money to work on 286 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: a marketing perspective has to reflect their values. And this 287 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: is what a lot of companies are doing. Why General 288 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: Mills are pulling back on Twitter. Why we've heard gm 289 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: and do the same. Some thought about competition there too, 290 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: But I'm interested is this is also an environment, a 291 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: recessionary environment and slowing down economically environment where people might 292 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: be pressing pause everywhere? Is that the case or is 293 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: this really idiosyncratic? It's actually not the case. Right now, 294 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: it's November and December Q four, this is when six 295 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: of media spend normally happens. So we're seeing spend happened 296 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: on Meta, on snap, on Pinterest, on TikTok, on Google. 297 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: People are spending, but spend is now being reallocated outside 298 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: of Twitter into these other channels. And why it's benefiting 299 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: the most. I have a feeling I can guess and 300 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: you could probably guess. But in the last seven days 301 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: we've seen a increase in TikTok traffic. And is that 302 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: I mean today just me, I was on TikTok and 303 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: suddenly I found myself basically perusing some at leisure brand 304 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: because it's Singles Day and then just I didn't even 305 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: realize I was doing it native within that overall app 306 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: until I clicked out of it, and the naturally by 307 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: what is going to buy? But I'm interested is to 308 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: is it because we're in that particular months and or 309 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: is it actually a different reason. No, TikTok is inherently personalized. 310 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: It's probably scares you how well the appnos you, and 311 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: so when you open TikTok right there and then they 312 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: have a high consideration knowing what you want to buy. 313 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: We actually see amazing conversion on that platform, and unlike 314 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: other social platforms, you can get huge bang for your 315 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: buck organically or being influencers. Most of the other social 316 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: platforms you have to pay to play. And a lot 317 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: of people have been sort of wringing their hands about 318 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: the noise that has been built into the system. Many 319 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: lay blame a lot of CEOs would like to lay 320 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: blame Apple's feed as to how perhaps some of the 321 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: direct targeting has become less direct, less efficient in that respect, 322 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: and probably harder some of your clients. I'm interested in general, 323 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: like are you seeing at this moment, what are your 324 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: clients wanting to do. Are they wanting to have more effective, 325 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 1: efficient use of social media? Are they backing away entirely? What? 326 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: What are they saying to you? Yeah? I mean changes 327 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: in iOS fourteen have really undone brand media as we 328 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: know it. Platforms like Meta used to be an amazing 329 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: conversion channel, but ever since the changes that Apple made 330 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you're seeing spend shift out of 331 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: national brand channels into environments like retail media. If you 332 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: look at Amazon's most recent earnings advertising through quarter over quarter, 333 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: there's really strong R o I within those environments as 334 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 1: well as brand safety. You don't have to worry about 335 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: issues like you're experiencing in Twitter in an environment like Amazon. Okay, 336 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,479 Speaker 1: and I love you, I love that. You bring us 337 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: back to the brand safety element. Is there anything in 338 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: the hair and the now that will change the centrol? 339 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: Do you thing full Twitter traffic? Yeah? This is not 340 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: the first time of moment like this happened. In two 341 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: thousand seventeen, brands paused on YouTube because of hate speech. 342 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: In summer, brands pause on Facebook because of hate speech. 343 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: Both of those platforms inevitably regain the trust of average tisers. 344 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: But what it took was the corporate executive team going 345 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: from conference room to conference room and showing that they 346 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: can stabilize their platform and deliver on their words. So 347 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: I don't think this has to be a forever thing 348 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: for Twitter, but what the industry needs to see is stability, 349 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: and they need to see action not words. Well, we 350 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 1: thank you for your words. We thank you for coming 351 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: in the studio as well. Such a great voice for 352 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,959 Speaker 1: Rachel topographic course, founder and CEO of make Mac. Meanwhile, 353 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: we're going to be right back with more on bloom 354 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: Bag technology after the spring. We're going to be talking 355 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: so much more about the layoffs in particular across the sector. 356 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: Stay with us as a Bloomberg. Soft Bank founder, Mass 357 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: Yoshi's son says he will no longer speak at earnings presentations. 358 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: He's not for decades. That's after the company's Vision Fund. 359 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: Of course, the arm that is doing a lot of 360 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: investing had a seven point two billion dollar quarterly loss 361 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: due to the right downs on its tech investments. Now, 362 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: soft Bank, which for years was the world's most aggressive 363 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: tech investor, has virtually halted new investments and focused instead 364 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: on his balancie. Meanwhile, Ali Baba decided not to disclose 365 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: full sales results for its signature Singles Day shopping festival, 366 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: and that's for the first time ever. Alabama said in 367 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: a statement that the gross merchandise value was in line 368 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: with the last year's g m V performance, despite macro 369 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: challenges and COVID related impact. But some forecasts say, look, 370 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: the figure could suffer a decline that's unprecedented in the 371 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: events fourteen year history. I think this is the first 372 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: of many cuts that we're going to see, not only 373 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: for these companies. Okay, but the company is written large. 374 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: We've seen over hiring, over inventorying, over ordering, and then 375 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: I'll has to get wrong out of the system. These 376 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: companies are starting to take action right Finally the natal party. 377 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Technology and Caroline Hide in New York. 378 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: You were just hearing from Mike Wilson Morganestani's chief U 379 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: security strategist about the current landscape of tech layoffs and 380 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: stick into that a little bit more, plus much other 381 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: conversation topics to be having with the Activate founder and CEO. 382 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: Michael Wolfe, management consultant, previously CEO of President of MTV. 383 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: He was also on the boards of companies such as 384 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: Yahoo for example, you're a man who understands what it's 385 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: like to run businesses have to slim down businesses to 386 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: see a restructuring. What do you make of not only 387 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: Disney now saying that they're going to be cutting their jobs, freezing, 388 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: hiring only essential travel. We had from Meta the Artists 389 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: formerly known as Facebook, but Meta eleven thousand jobs to go. 390 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: These are significant cuts. There are a lot of other 391 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,239 Speaker 1: companies Striped Lived. That's so many of these companies are 392 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: using this moment. But if you look at the numbers, 393 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: it's in a lot of ways they overshot. They expected 394 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 1: that the growth that they experienced during the pandemic would 395 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: be sustained. So if you look at but happened with Meta, 396 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: Meta two thousand seventeen had twenty five thousand employees. Two 397 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: thousand nineteen, they had fifty thousand after the cuts, After 398 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 1: the eleven thousand cuts, they're still gonna be at seventy 399 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: five thousand employees. So this is this is just going 400 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: back to yesterday a little bit, and and and it's 401 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: also a moment in which they need to say to 402 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: their investors, we're going to focus on profitability and recognize 403 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: the realities of the web. I think what's interesting is 404 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: also the manner in which these are being announced. To 405 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: his credit, Mark Zuckerberg had a mere colper moment. He 406 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: said he his personal responsibility. You've seen that echoed by 407 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: other leaders as well, and whether or not it's more Previously, 408 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: Shopify was almost the first company to really announce that 409 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: really they'd they'd got the trajectory wrong. They've got the 410 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: COVID lift and they thought they could bring it into 411 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: perpetuity and actually know the ark was going to fall 412 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: back down a little bit. And then on the other side, 413 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: you haven't eno mask who is doing it without much emotion. 414 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: How do it as a business leader, as a management consultant, 415 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: think about the way in which these messages are delivered. 416 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: Um well, overall in the tech business, we're losing about 417 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: a hundred thousand jobs but from those companies, but also 418 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: if you look at it from the perspective of the 419 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: overall market, all those people are going to find other jobs. 420 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: There's a tremendous amount of demand for technology talent in 421 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: everything from finance to government, to healthcare and it even startups. 422 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: There's about two fifty billion dollars and venture capital out 423 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: there waiting to be deployed. But when you look at 424 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: these companies and you think about about where their cuts 425 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: are going to come from, what they need to do. 426 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: The bigger issue is they've got to find new sources 427 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: of growth. In every one of these cases, from Apple 428 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: to Amazon to Meta, they're all dependent on the old 429 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: sources of growth. And by that's why they're coming to 430 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: our company activate, because they're looking for new places for growth. 431 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: Cost has a human, huge human toll, but it's actually 432 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: much more difficult than growth. Okay, so let's talk about 433 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: the growth that hopefully some of these people who are 434 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: now getting we hope decent severance packages and able to 435 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: go and set up their own startups or indeed a 436 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: meta that now doubling down on the continued trajectory of 437 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: a different kind of growth of focus on a web 438 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 1: three let's call it. You'll, of course a man in 439 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: puts together the future analysis you're putting together. What is 440 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: gonna look like for us? Is meta the right bet 441 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: um the challenges metas metaverse bet is all about virtual reality. 442 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: And what's happened overall with metaverse is we're already past 443 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: the hype cycle. I mean, we've already hit the peak 444 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: of of hype, and now we are going to see 445 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: sustained investment, but the sustained investment may not be in 446 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: the places that metas focused. So, for example, the metaverse 447 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean virtual reality, not necessarily virtual reality headset. 448 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: In fact, our research shows that most people don't spend 449 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: more than thirty minutes at any one time in virtual reality, 450 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: So a lot of it's going to be too deep, 451 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: and of a lot of it's going to art in 452 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: video games. And in fact, when you look at the metaverse, 453 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: you have between four video games, between Roadblocks, Fortnite, Minecraft, Um, 454 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: you end up having three hundred million people who are 455 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: spending a great deal of their lives on average eleven 456 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: hours a month, and some of them are spending forty 457 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: hours a week in these games and so, and they're 458 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: all metaverse platforms. So the idea that this is way 459 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: off in the future and none of it is spending 460 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: time with an Occulus headset. So it depends every company 461 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: is going to take a different bet. It just may 462 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 1: not necessarily be the right bet. What you mentioned roadblocks 463 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: and what roadblocks sort of for many helped with this 464 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: whole idea of a metaverse we could then see, oh, 465 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: that's maybe where crypto comes in. That's maybe where the 466 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 1: payment of you know, when you're buying skins and they're like, 467 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: suddenly you have a native currency. You have a digital 468 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: currency for one of a better expression. When we're starting 469 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: to see the fallout that we've just done with FTX 470 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: for crypto in general, is that going to impact the metaverse, 471 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: Web three, the direction of traveling anyway. Well, actually, the 472 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: payments that are taking place inside of those large metaverse platforms, 473 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: they're not crypto. And when people look at metaverse they 474 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: think Web three and metaverse are the same thing. In 475 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, they're not. Web three depends on 476 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: really decentralized protocols. Crypto a metaverse is really the consumer layer. 477 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: So in the same way that we saw the browser 478 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: was necessary for the Internet, metaverse is going to be 479 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 1: necessary for Web three. But we're way far off and 480 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: seeing the applications of these technologies in Web three and 481 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: what's happened even today with f t X shows that, 482 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: uh that the tools may be valuable, but their application 483 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: is going to take a while to be applied. Activate 484 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: founder and CEO Michael Wolf come back when you are 485 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: talking to all these businesses looking for that steer. We 486 00:25:50,880 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: thank them for it. We have, you know, a few 487 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: billion on our balance sheet right now. We are profitable. 488 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 1: We're in a relatively strong place from a financial perspective. 489 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: I want to be doing something that positive, like with 490 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: the making money per like, like I want to be 491 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: good actor there. We'd raised a few billion dollars over 492 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: the course of the last last couple of years, and 493 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: we're profitable business with Voyager. I think, you know, there's 494 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 1: seventy million dollars there that that that we put in 495 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: that I'm not sure ever seeing that seventy million. Again, 496 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: we have not used the majority of the cash that 497 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: we have on our balance sheet. We want to be flexible. 498 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 1: We want to be in a position where we are 499 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: you know, looking forward at uh you know what we 500 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: could be doing, where we could be most helpful um 501 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: and where we can grow the most. I'm excited about 502 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: a pathway forward. I'm really excited about our leadership. Wow, 503 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: the ft X co found a former CEO, Sam batmanfree 504 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: talking to Bloomberg again and again about profitability, about growth 505 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: in a series of interviews in fact from July to 506 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: set Timber of this very year, and then the downfall 507 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: that we've just seen, the unraveling in one week, and 508 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: one that perhaps was slightly more prophesized by our next guest, 509 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: Mike Alfred Eagle Book Advisors founding board member. Of course, 510 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: a man who's deeply working within the world of crypto 511 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 1: also happened to be a value investor. So a man 512 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: who can give us take some whether you should be 513 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: an a b in bev at the same time as 514 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: whether you should be into certain cryptocurrencies. And Mike, first 515 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: and foremost, why were you concerned? Were you concerned about 516 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: the closeness, shall we say, of a maid and indeed 517 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: of what was happening at f t X. So I 518 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: was concerned about a lot of things over the last 519 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: two years in this space. Right So, I think there's 520 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: a couple of really big fundamental issues here. One is 521 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: just a lack of corporate governance. Right so, ft X 522 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: basically had no outside investors on their board. Many of 523 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: these other companies that blow up blew up this year 524 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: had similar setups where because they had so much leverage 525 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: when they were raising money, there was nobody you could 526 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,719 Speaker 1: tell them what to do. Right then, there's a lot 527 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: of leverage. Right, you don't see blow ups like this 528 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: without a tremendous amount of ridge, right, that's going to 529 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: typically be there in every situation. And then the last 530 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: piece is just this overreach for yield in a low 531 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: interest rate environment. Right, So all of these firms are 532 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: essentially doing these sort of poorly structured arbitrage trades. And 533 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: so if you look back to the spring of one, 534 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: the gray scale arbitrage trade, who was in that trade 535 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: three A c celsius Block five? Right, when you look 536 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: at Tera Luna, that was also an arbitrage trade, borrow 537 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: money from a trading desk at ten to get anchor? 538 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: Who was in that trade again three a c celsius 539 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: And of course f t X and so ft X 540 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: blows up, uh and uh. Indirectly, it's because of the 541 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: relationship with Alameda, right, because Alameda essentially lost so much 542 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: money in that anchor trade that they needed paper over it. 543 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: And that's where Sam crossed that bright line, right, because 544 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: up until that point it was just gambling with the 545 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: principle's money in a sense. But once he started gambling 546 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: with the actual users money at ft X, I think 547 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: that's when things really went down. Help five million uses, 548 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: but also a proliferation of high profiles, celebrities of well 549 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: thought of and deep pocketing venture capitalists and now been burned. 550 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: And I'm sure incredibly angry at Mike. I'm what next 551 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: in terms of credibility, because as you've just been mentioning 552 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: the names, you've had lunar voyages, Celsius and then have 553 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: f t X. Is there another shoe to drop here? 554 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: Is there a contagion risk? Is there are the people 555 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: that will be but so badly burned that there has 556 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: to be further to full so eventually there won't be 557 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: any contagient risk. But obviously those of us who felt 558 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: the contagion was mostly contained in June after Celsius were 559 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: We're wrong. Um, you know remember at that time SPF 560 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: went on your program and a number of others and said, 561 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: look this is over right, there's not going to be 562 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: any more downside. And in retrospect, he was clearly doing 563 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: that to protect his own firms liquidation levels. He wasn't 564 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: doing it because he actually believed it. He wasn't doing 565 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: it to be JP Morgan. He wasn't trying to save everybody. 566 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: He literally was just protecting his own ass and I 567 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: get why he was doing that now, but I should 568 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: have read kind of deeper into it and realized, Okay, 569 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: he probably has the same problems in his balance sheet. 570 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: So roll forward today. Who could actually have more risk 571 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: in their balance sheet than we know of? The one 572 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: firm I can think of as Binance. That's not a 573 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: popular opinion. There are a lot of people who want 574 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: to believe that Finance is a good actor. But the 575 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: reality is there an offshore exchange that's thinly regulated, just 576 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: like ft X. They don't even have a domicile, so 577 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: it's hard to hold them accountable for anything. And I'm 578 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: sure and I'm certain that in some ways they're engaging 579 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: in similar activities on the back end, so that that 580 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: would be the ultimate that would be the ultimate blow 581 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: up if something would happen to Finance. Well, of course 582 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: we'll go to Finance to try and get their take 583 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: and have them be able to defend themselves CZ in particular. 584 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: But there is an interesting interesting take them that this 585 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: is the centralization of Ultimately what is wanting to be decentralized. 586 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: Is there a way that you can have centralization other 587 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: than perhaps a company that is public that is regulated, 588 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: How do you regulate non public, non u s domassailed companies. 589 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: Is there a way we can bring transparency the promise 590 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: of real transparency that's so excited many about the space. 591 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: Can we ensure that is happening when you do have 592 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: these deep pockets and indeed a level of hiding behind 593 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: set in alvatrages. I mean, I think there's sort of 594 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: two ways. One is to just stick with a very safe, 595 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: regulated onshore exchange that holds all the assets one to one, 596 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: doesn't lend them out, doesn't run a hedge fund in 597 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: the background like ftx or or celsius um or go 598 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: all the way the other side into true decentralization and 599 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: leverage defied protocols that are using code to offer these services, 600 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: right so unit swap and maker and compound. You know, 601 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: I think it needs to be noted that when you 602 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: look back at what happened during the period where Celsius 603 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: was being liquidated, um, you know, those protocols did a 604 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: good job, right They liquidated the counterparties immediately, no questions asked. 605 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: They didn't care who you were, they didn't do any 606 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: credit check, they didn't call you and say please serve 607 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: deposit more collateral. They just did the job that was 608 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: written into the protocol, And so I think true truly 609 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: decentralized DeFi could work at scale and may actually be 610 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: better in most cases to a centralized option. But if 611 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: in the in the meantime, while we're waiting for that 612 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: to happen, using a company like coin base in the 613 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: US is one of the safest sweats to approach it. 614 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about what regulation happens from 615 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: now might because I'm pretty sure there's a lot of 616 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: sharpening of pencils going on at the moment because in 617 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: many ways he some Maguan freed himself, was seen as 618 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: the main lobbyist out there and talking and maybe have 619 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: been his undoing in many ways when it comes to 620 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: the relationship that disintegrated between himself and Ceasy because of 621 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: that lobbying. But I'm interested when actually, in the clear 622 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: light of day, in real trad fire traditional finance, you 623 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: still get these blow ups. You still have archagos who 624 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: still have Bill whim and you still have goodness a 625 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: liquidity issue that it happened just a month or so 626 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: ago in the UK with its pension funds because of 627 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: issues within the holdings of bonds and the movement. You know, 628 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: even in deeply regulated markets, we can sometimes have these 629 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: desperate affairs. How do we make regulation fit for purpose 630 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: within crypto at the moment? So it's a it's again, 631 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: it's a it's a tough question. But if you look 632 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: at like MF Global, right, Um, you know, they went 633 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: into bankruptcy and it took a little bit of time, 634 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: but none of the sort of users of that platform 635 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: lost any money. Um. Same thing with other brokerage platforms, 636 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: other banks. The regulation is so stringent and there's so 637 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: many protections that it's really hard for an end customer 638 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: to lose all their money. And so look, I mean 639 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: that that that sort of regulation may stifle some innovation, 640 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: but it also stops casual retail users from losing everything. 641 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: And so I would err on the side of being 642 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: more conservative generally. I don't think it makes sense to 643 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: allow people to lever up ten x, twenty x, thirty X. 644 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: I don't think it makes sense for these platforms to 645 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: take the money on the back end essentially gamble with it. 646 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: And so if that means less innovation, I'm sort of 647 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: okay with that, and interesting me of course, the innovation, 648 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: the froth, the money that poured in has sort of 649 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: been pulled out, and then it's almost a year exactly 650 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: since bitcoin is a sixty and then since to today 651 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: when ft X is unraveling, Can you cool a bottom 652 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: in this market? Do? What do we need to instill 653 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: some sort of trust back to in the relative space 654 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,439 Speaker 1: of of other cryptocurrencies on there. I think the most 655 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: important thing once again is that there's not going to 656 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: be any tax payer funded government bailouts here, and I 657 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: think that will give people confidence once it's clear that 658 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: there's no more dominoes left to fall. And I think 659 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: in the coming days and weeks, as we look at 660 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: the creditors to ft x, which they're just going to 661 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: be numerous companies like Block five, etcetera, that Block five 662 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,439 Speaker 1: is probably gonna file for bankruptcy eminently here. I've heard 663 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: they've already hired counsel today, which makes sense. I sort 664 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: of said that on Twitter two days ago that you 665 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: should pull your money off Block five because that was 666 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: sort of an inevitable consequence of this um so. I look, 667 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: it's going to take a little bit of time, but 668 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: sometime in Q one Q two of this coming year, 669 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 1: there's gonna be a wonderful, potentially generational opportunity to buy bitcoin. 670 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: I want to say, just buy a bitcoin. I mean 671 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: bitcoin in cold storage, where there's no counterparty, where there's 672 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,479 Speaker 1: no risk that you lose all your bit because bitcoin 673 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: is a wonderful thing on its own. It's what we're 674 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,439 Speaker 1: talking about is all the adjacent centralized businesses that took 675 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: on too much leverage that we're often unregulated, and they're 676 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: offshore and they messed up um. And that happens in 677 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: these sort of wild West environments. But bitcoin itself is 678 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: still going to make a new block every ten minutes 679 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: for the next hundred two five hundred years. That's what 680 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: we're betting on in the bitcoin space, and that comes true. 681 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,280 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what happens to any of these companies. 682 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: Oh well, here from the bitcoin maximalists and more, but 683 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: I'm not calling you one of those. But it's interesting 684 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,760 Speaker 1: that we once again go back to perhaps where people 685 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: feel that they can trust for the time being. Mike Alford, 686 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: really great to have some time with you. Thank you. 687 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 1: Eagle Brook Advisors founding board member. Of course, all about 688 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: institutional access to some of these defied protocols, well, I 689 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: actually got to speak with a key CEO in the 690 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: traditional finance space, American Express CEO C Squary, just yesterday, 691 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: and talked about the fallout of crypto at the moment 692 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: and whether or not it could still be an innovative 693 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: space to be investing in, whether traditional payment methods could 694 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: be disrupted through it. I spoke exclusively with him at 695 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: the Economic Club of New York yesterday. Take listen. We've 696 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: looked at cryptocurrencies from when they first, you know, started 697 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: to gain traction. We've experimented with blockchain, We've got investments 698 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: in blockchain um companies. We have a partnership with Abra 699 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: where people earned cryptocurrency rewards. And you know, I've been 700 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: pretty public that I believe that cryptocurrency is an asset class, 701 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: and I think people like to invest in different asset classes, 702 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: and and and off you go. But I don't see 703 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: it um replacing the payment rails UM and and you know, 704 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: and when I think about cryptocurrencies, I put that under 705 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: the umbrella of digital currencies, and so I have you know, 706 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: you have digital currencies, you have the cryptocurrencies, your bitcoins, 707 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: your theoryum and so forth. And then you've got your 708 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: stable coins UM. And then you've got you know, governmental 709 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: digital currencies as well. And and I think there there 710 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: certainly is a play um for digital currency in you know, 711 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: in the economy. UM. But it's it's hard for me 712 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: to see right now, UM cryptocurrencies with the volatility, UM, 713 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 1: with the limited supply of some of them as well, 714 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: how it really um, you know, replaces the traditional payment methods. 715 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: The one thing with the traditional payments methods, they're not broken. 716 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: They work. UM. And uh so we'll see. Having said that, 717 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 1: you never say never, and and that's why you stay engaged. 718 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: You listen to people. UM. You know, there's a lot 719 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: of people that have a very different perspective than I have, 720 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: and they've made a lot of money. They may be 721 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 1: a lot smarter. But I think when I think about 722 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: sort of the business that that American expresses in which 723 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 1: is we're really a lifestyle brand that brings people experiences, 724 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: provides access, and combines a payment facility with that, the 725 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 1: horses that we have right now are are working for us. 726 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: So maybe just maybe we get a bit of calm 727 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 1: in the week ahead, let's have a quick look at 728 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: what we're actually covering, what's already on the agenda. We 729 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,800 Speaker 1: know that there might be some headlines we're not expecting, 730 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: but there could be some fireworks when it comes to 731 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: the epic versus Apple trial Monday, of course a key 732 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: focus there. We're gonna be digging into key earnings of 733 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: large mega brands such as Walmart. Of course, we're going 734 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:25,720 Speaker 1: to get a real sense check and where the retail 735 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: where the consumer is at, but also whether shopping online, 736 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: how digital spenders going at the moment, of course, in 737 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: video front and center, when we're thinking of US China relations, 738 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: when we're thinking of chips, when we're thinking of the 739 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,919 Speaker 1: semiconductor space at the moment, and well whether we are 740 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: in some sort of megacycle once again. And Abco Branchesky 741 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: is going to be joining Bloomberg on Thursday. You want 742 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: to be tuning into that exclusive conversation. And then of 743 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: course back to the courts come Friday, Elizabeth Holmes, the 744 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: sentencing the Themist trial. You do not want to be 745 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: missing that as we deep dive so much more of 746 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: course coming to Bloomberg, and please say, of course on Monday, 747 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: when we're having Sunny Sing one of FDx IS investors 748 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: from their funding round back in just how painful has 749 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: that trade been, What does he think of the future. 750 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: Check out our podcast as well. You can get on 751 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: an Apple, Spotify, and i Heeart. Have a good weekend. 752 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: This is Blomberg