1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: My overlanding rentro No, I don't know. 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 2: I know. 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 1: Ninth Planet Audio cap com We're over landing, You're over landing. 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 3: Over Change happens to people in lots of different ways. 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 3: For Annie Wilson in two thousand and two, as an 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 3: eighth grader attending the Kullowe Valley School in North Carolina, 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 3: it happened with a mascot. 8 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 4: I remember going on a school field trip to the 9 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 4: university library and they had a display at the library 10 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 4: about indigenous symbols used as mascots, like the chiefs and 11 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 4: the redskins and the braves, all of that. So that, 12 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 4: I think is really where my interest in this started. 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 4: And then I started cheering and noticing other mascots in 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 4: our region that were cool, like the eagles and the mustang. 15 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 4: Why is a gross old man. 16 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 5: As our mascot? 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 3: You already know what I'm going to say, right, big 18 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 3: white mustache, big hat, gray coat. Yes, the Kullowe Valley School, 19 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 3: where Annie Wilson was in middle school, were the rebels. 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 4: I remember complaining to my parents about that and then 21 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 4: them helping me kind of connect those dots with you know, 22 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 4: those kind of indigenous mascot symbols. And the Revel. And 23 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 4: so I was the president of the student council, and 24 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 4: I decided, this is something that I want to do. 25 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 4: I want to change this my mascot. 26 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 3: Annie wrote a letter to her local newspaper, the Silva 27 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 3: Harald and Rural. 28 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 4: Lite, to the editor, I recently visited an exhibit at 29 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 4: the Western Carolina University Library at. 30 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 6: Any use of Native American names, symbols and imagery and 31 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 6: sports teams mascots. This was a very interesting and thought 32 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 6: provoking experience for me. I never realized these seemingly innocent 33 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 6: and even positive icons on a deeper level can be 34 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 6: very degrading and damaging to the culture on which they're taken. 35 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 6: Then I started think about my own school's mascot, the Rebels. 36 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 6: I have attended Colwee Valley School my whole life. I 37 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 6: am now in the eighth grade, president of student council, 38 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 6: and a cheerleader. I have therefore been closely associated with 39 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 6: our mascot. I've worn the image on my clothes, drawing 40 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 6: it on my notebooks, and so forth. But I've now 41 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 6: started to wonder if it is really an appropriate symbol 42 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 6: for our school. In the year two thousand and two 43 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 6: and beyond. People say it represents our heritage and we 44 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 6: should honor it and respect it. I am a Native 45 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 6: Southerner myself, as both of my parents are and all 46 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 6: of their parents, and I do love much about the 47 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 6: Southern culture, its openness and friendliness, its appreciation for the outdoors. 48 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 3: And naturally Any lays it all out the history of 49 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 3: racism in America, from slavery to Jim Crow, and how 50 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 3: it still reverberates today at her school. 51 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 6: Although many of my friends are not racists and mean 52 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 6: no harm by their support of the mascot, I have 53 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 6: discovered that the rebel is deeply troubling and offensive to 54 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 6: all our African American students and their families, and this 55 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 6: grew includes my very closest friends. It is time for 56 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 6: us to shed this unfortunate image of the past and 57 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 6: to select a new mascot with positive imagery and associations. 58 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 6: The plan to initiate this project is within the student 59 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 6: council at CBS, but we will need the support of 60 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 6: the community in order to be successful in achieving this 61 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 6: positive change. Annie mccorn, eighth grader, Kloe Valley School. 62 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 3: Annie's letter ran and the reaction was immediate. 63 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 4: The first response was a response to support, which was 64 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 4: really exciting. But then then negative, negative pushback started coming out, 65 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 4: and so other strongly worded letters in the newspaper, parents 66 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 4: having strong opinions that they then you give to their children, 67 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 4: and their children coming to school and fighting with me 68 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 4: about why are you doing this? So I remember, you know, 69 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 4: heated debates with classmates but also administrators in the school system. 70 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 4: And then and then I have a very visceral, vivid 71 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 4: memory of receiving a phone call to our house phone 72 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 4: one day that dates me pretty hard, and it was 73 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 4: for me, and I remember taking the call in my parents' 74 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 4: bedroom for some reason, and it was an older man 75 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 4: who told me that he had a shotgun and he 76 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,679 Speaker 4: knew where I lived and that I better stop. 77 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: And that was scary. 78 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 4: That was really. 79 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 3: Scary, scary enough that Annie left. She enrolled in a 80 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 3: boarding school in Pennsylvania and later went to college in Washington. 81 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 7: D C. 82 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 3: It wasn't until she had a child that she thought 83 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: about returning back home to Kullowe, where she now teaches 84 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 3: at Western Carolina University, and that child they went to 85 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 3: Collowee Valley School, still home of the rebels, that is 86 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 3: until twenty twenty the murder of George Floyd and a 87 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 3: conversation that began, of course on Facebook. 88 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 4: So those conversations are happening about like what do we do, 89 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 4: what can we do in our community? And somebody brought 90 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,559 Speaker 4: up why is the rebel still the mascot at Kelly Valley? 91 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 4: And you'd take up this story from years before and 92 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 4: reached out to me. 93 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 3: Eighteen years after she wrote the letter that led to 94 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 3: her leaving town. Annie Wilson was the face of changing 95 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 3: the rebel mascot again, but this time she wasn't a child, 96 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 3: and she wasn't alone. 97 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 4: We get several hundred people that are supporting this change 98 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 4: and trying to figure out, like, Okay, what do we do? 99 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 4: And there's so much organization and support, which was really cool. 100 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 3: They did outreach, they started a GoFundMe, they met with 101 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 3: the principal, everything pointed in one direction, the school board. 102 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 4: Then we started communicating with the school board so that 103 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 4: we could get on the schedule for the school board. 104 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 4: And so I would say from the time that we 105 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 4: created the Facebook group to the time that we were 106 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 4: able to present to the school board, it was probably 107 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 4: about eight months. 108 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 3: Annie may have waited eighteen years, but she finally had 109 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 3: her moment to make the case. 110 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 4: Ultimately, it goes in front of the school board and 111 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 4: we just kind of forced a vote after making our 112 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 4: presentation and our pleas. There was a couple of school 113 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 4: board meetings where they were getting input from the community 114 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 4: and things like that, and then ultimately when it was voted, 115 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 4: it was a unanimous vote to replace them. 116 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 3: That's right, listener, The Kloe Valley Rebels are now as 117 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 3: of June second, twenty twenty one, the Klowe Valley Wolves. 118 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: It really can happen. 119 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 2: I was a lady rebel, like, what does that even need? 120 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 4: The Boone County Rebels will stay, the Boone County Rebels 121 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 4: with the image. 122 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 7: Of right here in black and white, the. 123 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 2: Friends bigger than a flag or mask on. 124 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 7: Anytime you're trying to mess with tradition, you get to 125 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 7: be ready for a serious backlash. 126 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 3: From Ninth Planet Audio. I'm Akila Hughes and this is 127 00:06:54,520 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 3: Rebel Spiral, Episode six. Other Rebels. There was a point 128 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 3: where I thought Boone County High School was unique in 129 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 3: their rebel name. I actually couldn't have been more wrong. 130 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 5: There's South great Nick High School. South greatnick Long Island 131 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 5: nineteen eighty four. They had a Confederate flag on the 132 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 5: side of their football helmet. 133 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 3: So if you want to know all there is to 134 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 3: know about schools that have used the rebels name, there 135 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 3: is no better person to talk to than doctor Caleb Smith. 136 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 5: Briarfield Academy in Lake Providence, Louisiana is a good example 137 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 5: of that. Humphreys Academy in Belzoni, Mississippi, is another one 138 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 5: like that. Oh gosh, I just went blank. There's several 139 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 5: Hickory Flat in Mississippi, George County, Mississippi, Harrison City. 140 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 3: There are so many rebel schools that it's hard to 141 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 3: keep straight. Doctor Smith should know. He wrote his dissertation 142 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 3: on the rebel name in high schools. It's title The 143 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,559 Speaker 3: Rebel Made Me Do It, Mascot's Race and the Lost 144 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 3: Cause get him started, and he doesn't stop. 145 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 5: There's a school in Texas called Evadelle, and Evadelle is 146 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 5: probably the most egregious of the rebel schools that I know. 147 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 5: Their school emblem is the Confederate battle flag. It got 148 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 5: so bad that Google actually pulled their school website for 149 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 5: being a hate speech site because of that image of 150 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 5: the Confederate battle flag. Highland High School in Hardy, Arkansas 151 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 5: is one that comes to mind that they had on 152 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 5: one side of the sign was an American flag and 153 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 5: on the other side was a Confederate flag. There was 154 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 5: an instance and I love this story in Kirkland, Washington. 155 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 5: Janita High School was built in the early seventies and 156 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 5: they decided they were going to do an experimental type 157 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 5: of educational system with really short periods of classes in 158 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 5: really a varied from the norm. So from that they 159 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 5: decided to call themselves the Rebels. And they even adopted 160 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 5: like an eagle as their image even though they were 161 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 5: called the rebels, so it really rebels against everything. But 162 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 5: by nineteen eighty five there's a Confederate flag on the 163 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 5: front of their yearbook. 164 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like all roads for revel lead to 165 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 3: Confederate crap. Before we get to the Confederate crap, how 166 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 3: about a quick trip through mascot history with Doctor Smith. 167 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 5: Colleges had the first real mascots that we can really identify. 168 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 5: You can go all the way back to Harvard having 169 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 5: Theirs and Yelle having Theirs as the earliest. But schools 170 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 5: developed mascots for lots of different reasons. Sometimes it was 171 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 5: just a type in the newspaper, or some editor said, well, 172 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 5: this team, they were really mean looking and they looked 173 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 5: like a crimson tide because of the way they attacked 174 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 5: the field. And so that's where we get a lot 175 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 5: of our mascots from. So then high schools in the 176 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 5: nineteen thirties and nineteen forties start developing their own mascots, 177 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 5: and most of the time they duplicated what they saw. 178 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 5: Schools are short funded, and so they decide, well, we're 179 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 5: going to use what Louisiana State University uses as a 180 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 5: tiger or not. We're the fighting Irish, they're the fighting Irish. 181 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 5: We begin to identify with these things in the nineteen fifties. 182 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 5: By the nineteen fifties, most high schools were tigers or 183 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 5: hawks or something that had a simple that the students 184 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 5: could bond around and maybe a banner or some sort 185 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 5: of image. 186 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: But something else happened in the nineteen fifties that suddenly 187 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 3: brought a new mascot named to high schools. 188 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 5: Oh across the South. It's got to be brown versus board. 189 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 5: In the mid late fifties, right after Brown, and that's 190 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 5: mainly public schools, and they're trying to get across that. 191 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 5: I know the FEDS have said that they want to integrate, 192 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 5: but we are a new school that has to at 193 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 5: least do something to save money because we have this 194 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 5: dual system. And the dual system was separate but definitely unequal. 195 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 5: And so what school districts and cities and states decided 196 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 5: to do was, instead of being separate but unequal, if 197 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 5: we make the the African American accommodations comparable to the 198 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 5: white ones, they're less prone to won't integrate. And so 199 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 5: let's merge all the white schools in our county or 200 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 5: in this area and form a new school. And then 201 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 5: we'll do the same thing with the black schools in 202 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 5: our county or in our city. And so from that 203 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 5: we'll have separate and equal and they'll be less want 204 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 5: to try to integrate the schools. And so the white 205 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 5: schools would merge together and they would become the Rebels 206 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 5: of Boyle County or whichever county. 207 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 3: It was now. The Rebels name that became popular in 208 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties just as integration was happening, didn't come 209 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 3: from nowhere, like doctor Smith says, most of the time, 210 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 3: high schools just duplicated what they saw, and what high 211 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 3: schools in the South saw was Ole Miss The University 212 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 3: of Mississippi and their mascot Colonel Reb, the original big 213 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 3: mustache Confederate mascot character. 214 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 5: There's a lot of duplicates of the Colonel Reb. 215 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 3: One place that there's not a duplicate of Colonel Reb anymore. 216 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:01,599 Speaker 3: Act University of Mississippi. 217 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 5: And in two thousand and two they finally did something 218 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 5: with their old Colonel Reb mascot, the Confederate one, and 219 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 5: migrated to a bear in two thousand and eight, and 220 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 5: now they are a land shark of all things. 221 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 3: That's right. In two thousand and two, Colonel Reb went 222 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 3: away in Mississippi. They are now inexplicably represented by Tony 223 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 3: the land Shark. Ole Miss however, still goes by the Rebels, 224 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 3: so does the university with the second most famous rebel mascot, 225 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 3: the University of Las Vegas. 226 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: Nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties, University of Nevada, Las Vegas 227 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: were the running Rebels and they were super popular. They 228 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: went to I think the elite eight like five out 229 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: of six years. Larry Johnson, Stacy Augman I think around 230 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: those teams. 231 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 3: This is Terry Borning from mascot dB dot com. We 232 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 3: spoke with him last episode about the two hundred and 233 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 3: fifty two historical and current rebel mascots around the country. 234 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 3: Terry is originally from Minnesota, where his high school merged 235 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 3: with another to form you guessed it, the Rebels. His 236 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 3: sister was at the school when it happened. 237 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: She remembers rebels, the running rebels of UNLV being a 238 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: big factor and they ultimately decided. And I noticed that 239 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: quite a bit in Minnesota, Like there's a lot of 240 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: rebel steams from Minnesota. So that's one other cultural phenomenon 241 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: that I noticed. 242 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 3: Why did Nevada, a state that supported the Union cause, 243 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 3: have any school with a rebel mascot. The short story 244 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 3: is that there was a public university in Reno, and 245 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 3: they created a new site in nineteen fifty seven in 246 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 3: Las Vegas. In nineteen sixty eight. They wanted to separate 247 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 3: themselves from the Northerners to create UNLV, so they called 248 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 3: themselves Rebels. The Northern school had a wolf mascot, so 249 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 3: they originally had a wolf mascot in a Confederate soldier 250 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 3: uniform that Confederate Wolf was retired in the eighties and 251 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 3: became Hey Reb. At this point, you can probably imagine 252 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 3: what he looked like. Big mustache, big hat. The gray 253 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 3: coat was exchanged for more of a Davy Crockett fringe 254 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 3: leather number, but you get the drift is an aside 255 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 3: if you remember. Back to the letter Judy Deathridge wrote 256 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 3: to the Cincinnati Inquirer. She cites the UNLV's Hey Reb 257 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 3: as the inspiration for her husband to create Mister Rebel 258 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 3: at Boon County High School following the racial justice uprisings 259 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: of twenty twenty in an outcry around UNLV's Confederate inspired mascot, 260 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 3: hay Reb was retired in twenty twenty one. And in 261 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 3: case you're like, wow, so they confronted their racist past. 262 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 3: This is what's on the unlv website as of twenty 263 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 3: twenty four. UNLV's nickname dates to the university's origin in 264 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 3: the mid nineteen fifties, a time when a nation founded 265 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 3: by rebels once again became obsessed with the idea of 266 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 3: the iconic nonconformist. The decade of the nineteen fifties was 267 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 3: epitomized by young people rebelling against their parents' middle class 268 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 3: American values from popular motion pictures such as nineteen fifty 269 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 3: three's The Wild One starring Marlon Brando, in nineteen fifty 270 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 3: five's Rebel Without a Cause starring James Dean, listener James 271 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 3: Dean did not die for this. We'll be right back. 272 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 3: While hay Reb went away in twenty twenty one, UNLV, 273 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 3: like Ole miss are still the Rebels. Most every rebel 274 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 3: school you look at is either a knockoff of ole 275 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 3: Missus Colonel Reb or UNLV's Hayreb, or some combination of 276 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 3: sabers and Civil warhats. But once you really start looking, 277 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 3: you start noticing the academies with fancy crests sporting the 278 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 3: name rebel. 279 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: When I was doing some research, especially for the South, 280 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: I found there were some in the nineteen fifties and 281 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. There's a lot of academies that use rebels 282 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: as a mascot. And when I did some research on them, 283 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: they are called segregation academies, which is kind of shocking. 284 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: It is basically these private charter schools that when the 285 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: Civil Rights said that we need to integrate public schools, 286 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: these charter schools were exempt from. 287 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 5: That into the nineteen sixties becomes evident that the states 288 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 5: and the school districts will have to integrate. It's realized, 289 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 5: oh no, there's no way that we can actually persist 290 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 5: with this separate but equal and however you want to 291 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 5: call that of a setup. And so then they start 292 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 5: moving kids to private schools, especially in the Deep South. 293 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 5: We'll see Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Louisiana start constructing these white 294 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 5: flight academies from sixty eight to about seventy two, and 295 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 5: their hardline stance was, we are forming just for white people, 296 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 5: and if you are not white, you cannot come to 297 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 5: this school. And here is our sign to you, this 298 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 5: Confederate rebel on the door saying you cannot come into 299 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 5: this school. 300 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: So a number of these charter segregation academies still exist, 301 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: and they might have, you know, like a couple of 302 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: students that are able to pay the tuition to come in, 303 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: but they're still predominantly white kids that are going there. 304 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: And those surprisingly, well maybe not surprisingly, when I did 305 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: my research, there's a lot of these academies that still 306 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: rebels as their. 307 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 3: Mascot, like Riverdale Academy and Cushada Louisiana that still has 308 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 3: a physical mascot, a mister Rebel character with white mustache 309 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 3: and hat. This school gained notoriety during a nineteen seventy 310 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 3: Congressional hearing for its ties to the broader issue of 311 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 3: public support for these private academies. These academies received benefits 312 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 3: such as discounted school buildings, free buses, and donated textbooks 313 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 3: at the expense of public funds. In nineteen seventy, the 314 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 3: county where Cushata is located was forty two percent black, 315 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 3: and all these resources were going to one private school. 316 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 3: The term rebel in this context isn't about creativity or nonconformity. 317 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 3: It means diverting resources from black students to maintain white 318 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 3: only institutions. Another example, John Hancock Academy in Georgia, was 319 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 3: established a year after a single black student enrolled at 320 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 3: Sparta High School. It still exists today with the rebel 321 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 3: mascot using the ole Miss Colonel Rev logo. On their 322 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 3: website is the following statement. At this particular time, when 323 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 3: political correctness is so prevalent, we must stand firm or 324 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 3: against worldly influences and point our young people toward the 325 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 3: truth of God's word. More so now than ever before. 326 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 3: It's time to stand up and be a rebel, and. 327 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 5: It's linked to power. It's linked to this reminder of 328 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 5: remember who's in charge. It are people who are in charge, 329 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 5: not your people. 330 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 3: Sometimes you have to fight the power. And lawsuits around 331 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 3: rebel mascots date back to nineteen seventy, when black students 332 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 3: in Munsey, Indiana, filed a class action lawsuit against the district, 333 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 3: alleging racial discrimination in redistricting, bussing, and in the use 334 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 3: of the rebel mascot at Munsey Southside High School, the 335 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 3: rebel students said was offensive, inflammatory, and discourage black students 336 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 3: from participating in extracurricular activities. The students lost because the 337 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 3: court found that the majority of white students in favor 338 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 3: of the rebel would have their First Amendment rights violated 339 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 3: if the rebel name was removed, though they did agree 340 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 3: that the Confederate imagery was offensive in good policy, though 341 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 3: apparently not a court of law would dictate its removal. 342 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 3: Munsey Southside High School stayed the rebels until it was 343 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 3: closed in twenty fifteen. Black students in Pensacola, Florida, filed 344 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 3: a class action lawsuit three years later in nineteen seventy 345 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 3: three at their high school, Escambia High School, and listener, 346 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 3: strap in, because wherever you think the story's going, it's 347 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 3: gone somewhere else. Escambia opened in nineteen fifty eight as 348 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 3: an all white school. Dixie was its marching song and 349 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 3: the Rebel was their mascot. Forced to integrate in nineteen 350 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 3: sixty nine, there was simmering tension between the new black 351 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 3: students and the hostile white ones that boiled over into 352 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 3: violence in nineteen seventy two. By July nineteen seventy three, 353 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 3: black students had gotten an injunction in US district Court 354 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 3: against the use of Confederate imagery at the school. The 355 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 3: next school year they were the Escambia Readers, and everything 356 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 3: could have probably been okay except the school board and 357 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 3: white students appealed the ruling, and in nineteen seventy five 358 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 3: the US Court of Appea Dee overturned the district court 359 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 3: ruling and left it to the school board to sort out, 360 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 3: which they did in February nineteen seventy six when they 361 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 3: held an election between the Raiders and the Rebels and 362 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 3: the Rebel name loss, which is when the white students 363 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 3: on the losing side rioted, and over the course of 364 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 3: four hours, four students were shot shot thirty were injured. 365 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 3: Over one hundred windows in the school were smashed, trophy cases, clocks, 366 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 3: and water fountains were destroyed, and a waterpipe flooded an 367 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 3: entire wing of the school. By the end of the chaos, 368 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 3: police had confiscated two truckloads of knives, chains, bricks, and clubs. 369 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 3: The next day, one hundred twenty clansmen rallied outside of town. 370 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 3: In the following weeks, crosses were burned on school board 371 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 3: members lawns, and two people, a member of the school 372 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 3: board's Citizen Advisory Committee and a state representative, had their 373 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 3: homes burned down. All this over a mascot which never 374 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 3: came back. Escambia High School has been the Gators since 375 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy eight. Nothing it's as not as Ascambia, I mean, okay, 376 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 3: But the most impactful lawsuit around the revel name came 377 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty five in Fairfax, Virginia. 378 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 5: You have a case where the principle there realizes that 379 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 5: there's a problem that there are African Americans in the 380 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 5: school who don't salute the flag or don't represent the 381 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 5: flag and this could cause real issues. Now, Fairfax was 382 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 5: a more forward thinking and progressive town in the eighties 383 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,120 Speaker 5: than most other places in the South, and so he 384 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 5: bans the Confederate flag and bans Confederate imagery to try 385 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 5: to put out the fire before it gets too big 386 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 5: in the school. And so from that case went all 387 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 5: the way to the Supreme Court about the question of 388 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,479 Speaker 5: freedom of speech of the students compared to trying to 389 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 5: prevent problems from occurring in an educational environment. 390 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 3: For Leonards, the case is Crosby versus Whole. Wolsinger was 391 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 3: the principal who took a stand against the Confederate imagery, 392 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 3: and Crosby represents the white students who just want their 393 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 3: rebel back. But unlike the previous two rebel cases where 394 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 3: courts ultimately decided for the racist white students, this time 395 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 3: the court found for the principal. The case was appealed 396 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 3: because of course it was, and it took five more years, 397 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 3: but the decision came down in nineteen ninety and the 398 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 3: Confederate imagery, but not the name rebel, was ended in Fairfax. 399 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 3: It would take another nineteen years to drop the rebel name. 400 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 3: Fairfax High school is now the Lions short and I'm 401 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 3: not joking for Rebel Lion rebellion. While there have been 402 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,479 Speaker 3: three court cases about the Rebel name, the reality is 403 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 3: that the courts aren't the main driver of change here. 404 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 5: Sadly, this is the bad part about this is that 405 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 5: those changes always occur when tragedy, especially a racially tinged tragedy, happens. 406 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 5: Charles to George Floyd, like, we see these things over 407 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 5: and over again, and that's when people kind of realize, whoa, 408 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 5: oh wow, that was something serious, what exactly are we 409 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 5: putting forth. In the end, it kind of starts fading 410 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 5: away and then we forget about it, and then something 411 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 5: else will happen. And it's always tragedy that leads to 412 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 5: these changes, which I hate that it happens that way, 413 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 5: but that's just the nature of a lot of different things. 414 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 5: The reason that we do a lot of the just 415 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 5: passing laws or bills or whatever. Usually some tragedy happens 416 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 5: and then we try to fix it after the fact, 417 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 5: and so we feel responsible for trying to fix it. 418 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 5: And this is what we do. 419 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 3: In researching this episode, you see a wave of attempts 420 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 3: at ditching Rebel mascots in the early nineteen nineties, after 421 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 3: the beating of Rodney King by the LAPD and the 422 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 3: riots that followed the cops not guilty verdict. Most of 423 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 3: those attempts failed. You see more traction following the Charleston 424 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,959 Speaker 3: Church massacre in twenty fifteen, and more momentum building following 425 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 3: the white supremacist march and subsequent murder of Heather Hare 426 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 3: and Charlottesville in twenty seventeen. But it's the police murders 427 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 3: of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd in twenty twenty that 428 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 3: kicked off a significant wave of change, including Spencer's petition 429 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 3: to change the Boone County Rebels, Annie Wilson's success at 430 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 3: Chuloe Valley School, and the end of the Courts High 431 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 3: Rebels in Antelope Valley, California. 432 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 2: Oh Man, who was I in high school? I was 433 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 2: just a big. 434 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 8: Lost goofball. I guess you could say, like unfinished Clay. 435 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 3: This is Tyros quartz Hill Rebel class of nineteen ninety two, 436 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 3: and Tyros is complicated. Tyros is a comedian, an actor, 437 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 3: a professional wrestler. He wrestled in the WWE under the 438 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 3: name the Funkosaurus and Tyros is also a Fox News contributor. 439 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 9: We saw Trump speaking, we saw a guy speaking for 440 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 9: the common name. I would think a transgendered woman winning 441 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 9: in the men's division would be just as powerful, if 442 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 9: would say more about equality than having to hop over 443 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 9: to the women. It just seems that these woke ambassadors 444 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 9: always seem to miss them. Everyone wants to get rid 445 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 9: of the police. These ideas are wrong. 446 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 3: Well, most people we've talked to about rebel mascots might 447 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 3: be the type of person that Tyros would rail about 448 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 3: as a guest on Gutfeld. How I am the type 449 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 3: of person that Tyros would rail about as a guest 450 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 3: on Gutfeld. But there's something we can agree on. Don't 451 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 3: go away. Tyros was outspoken and supportive in twenty twenty 452 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 3: when courts Hill moved from the rebels to the royals. 453 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 8: I was a history buff in US history with my teacher, 454 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 8: mister Ray. I wrote a paper about I was going 455 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 8: to go to America early and warn the Indians. Oh, 456 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 8: I'll start, I'll start off with that. So when and 457 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 8: it was at that age where you become aware of 458 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 8: anything like Confederate flag, and we were rebels in terms 459 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 8: of like we didn't fit in with the other schools. 460 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 8: We were smaller. Everyone else had won before, so and 461 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 8: we started winning, especially our football program, our basketball program. 462 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 8: We were always great about taking leftovers and making it 463 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 8: into something beautiful, like and I always thought that was 464 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 8: cool when you take something ugly and you make you 465 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 8: refurbish it. That the generals back in the day would 466 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 8: not be thrilled. It would be myself a rebel, So 467 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 8: I kind of get it from that perspective. It is 468 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 8: like it's ours now. When we twisted morphin the school. 469 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 3: Did they have that like Confederate general mascot? 470 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 8: I think they did, but I think we changed it. 471 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 8: I think it was a dog And it's true. 472 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 3: You go to check out the nineteen eighty nine Quartz 473 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 3: Hill High School yearbook and painted on the side of 474 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 3: the building as a Confederate flag with a Confederate soldier 475 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 3: saber and all. Mind you, this is a school in 476 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 3: southern California. They removed their mascot. Also in the nineties, 477 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 3: the fallout from Rodney King probably hit a little harder 478 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 3: in Socow, but they kept the rebel name. Always the 479 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 3: last thing to go, isn't it this progression that Tyrus 480 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 3: is describing from a Confederate general to a dog to 481 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 3: eventually the Royals is one we've seen over and over 482 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 3: even Boone County High School drop the flag and drop 483 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 3: the general. They just haven't lost the name. It's enough 484 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 3: of a pattern that Caleb can rattle it off in 485 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 3: his sleep. 486 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 5: We see that multiple times that these they'll first start 487 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 5: addressing the Confederate nature, the confederateness of mascots that there are, 488 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 5: you know, plantation owners that fly a rebel flag that 489 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 5: you know, look like an old Confederate general. They'll start 490 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 5: getting rid of them, and then they'll just go to 491 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 5: just the term rebels or just the county schools like 492 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 5: r DC or whatever lettering of using an actual image. 493 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 5: Well that then people are like, well, great, we're the 494 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 5: flying g's. Now there's not really an image we can 495 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 5: use now because the name that we've been using is 496 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 5: so hot button, we're just going to which is our 497 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 5: county name, and so that's what. 498 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 3: We're going to go with, Loon County. They're just the 499 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 3: letters B and see. Now it's like there is a 500 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 3: single playbook and they're just running through it. But enough 501 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 3: about me and my high school. Let's get back to Tyris. 502 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 8: In his it wasn't the environmental where somebody was using 503 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 8: it when the Farius name like, it wasn't like, hey, rebels, 504 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 8: shouldn't be no ND bombs on your team. 505 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: There wasn't. There was none of that negativity coming from anywhere. 506 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 8: So, and it wasn't prevalent in our cities and our 507 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 8: town and stuff. So whereas the South, there'll be people 508 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 8: with who would be paying a confeditive flag in their 509 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 8: front yard and stuff. And I live in Louisiana, I 510 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 8: still see it. But in California you just didn't have that. 511 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 8: So unless somebody really brought it up and brought it 512 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 8: to everyone's attention, we don't need rebel football teams in California. 513 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 3: I don't think Tyrus and I probably agree on much, 514 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 3: though his moves as the Funkosaurus were pretty good, But 515 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 3: we do agree on this. The rebel name has got 516 00:28:59,600 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 3: to go. 517 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 8: It's a word that unfortunately is forever seen, and we 518 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 8: don't need it in high school. 519 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's enough good stuff out there. 520 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 3: And then Tyrs brings up perhaps the simplest, most succinct, 521 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 3: and powerfully persuasive argument against keeping the name of the 522 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 3: rebels that I have ever heard. 523 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 8: My question was always why would we want to be 524 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 8: the losing team? I just take all the other stuff 525 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 8: out of it. We're rocking the team with the l. 526 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 3: Why would any school want to be associated with the 527 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 3: losing team? Who chooses a loser for their sports mascot? Well, racists, 528 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 3: I guess, but you all know that. Talking to Tyros, 529 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 3: talking to Annie Wilson, talking to Terry Boring, and doctor 530 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 3: Caleb Smith, it's clear that change is possible, even if 531 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 3: it doesn't happen overnight. Though for my sake, I hope 532 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 3: it doesn't take over a decade to get done at 533 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 3: Boone County High School. And it gives me an opportunity 534 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 3: to hope, even fleetingly, and. 535 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 5: To ask. 536 00:29:58,400 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 3: Is there a future without this crap? 537 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 5: Yes? 538 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 3: There is, again, doctor Caleb Smith. 539 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,719 Speaker 5: And I'll go back to the state flag of Mississippi, 540 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 5: because in two thousand and one, we had an election 541 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 5: where we voted on whether we wanted to keep the 542 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 5: old Confederate battle flag on our state flag or not. 543 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 5: And so in that election, it's like almost two to 544 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 5: one we voted to keep the old Confederate flag. Well, 545 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 5: fast forward nineteen years, we had another vote in twenty 546 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 5: twenty in that vote two to one in favor of 547 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 5: a new flag. We see that the younger people who 548 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 5: grow up in an integrated society, they go to school 549 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 5: with people of other ethnicities and other races, that they're 550 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:47,239 Speaker 5: more willing to realize that maybe this whole thing is 551 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 5: not about me and my race or however you want 552 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 5: to find that, and instead, let's see if we can 553 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 5: include other people. Let's check our racism at the door 554 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 5: and see if we figure out out, you know, is 555 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 5: this really a good symbol of everyone, of the people 556 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 5: of this school, district, or county, or state or whatever. 557 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 5: So there is hope. Since like nineteen ninety five, there 558 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 5: have been zero schools that have added a rebel mascot. 559 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 5: So no school since ninety five has said, you know what, 560 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 5: of all the mascots, we could choose tigers and hawks 561 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 5: and bears, we're gonna go with the rebel because that 562 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 5: one just seems really no Like, no school has done 563 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 5: that since ninety five, And so that shows a little 564 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 5: bit of people at least being cautious of what is 565 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 5: actually represented with what they use. We see from not 566 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,479 Speaker 5: from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty one, there are almost 567 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 5: thirty schools in the United States that drop the term 568 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 5: rebel because they realized this is a term we don't 569 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 5: really want to deal with anymore. So, I mean, if 570 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,959 Speaker 5: Mississippi can change it's flag, it kind of shows you 571 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 5: whoa whoa. You know, if they're changing their flag, there's 572 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 5: something really serious that we need to look at here 573 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 5: and address this whole issue. 574 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 3: All these conversations really got me thinking, like, is it 575 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 3: ever easy? What are the ingredients that somehow magically caused 576 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 3: this change to happen in a way that is quick 577 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 3: and met with excitement. Luckily, in our next episode, I 578 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 3: think we've maybe found a beacon of hope in Denver 579 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 3: South High School that shows us what is possible when 580 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 3: there's a high profile alumni like an NFL player who 581 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 3: is willing to push for change in school administrators who 582 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 3: welcome it. Next week will dive deep into the Denver 583 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 3: South case study in how they were able to pull 584 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 3: off something incredible. Rebel Spirit is a production of Ninth 585 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 3: Planet Audio and association with iHeart Podcasts. Reporting and writing 586 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 3: by me Akila Hughes. I'm also an executive producer and 587 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 3: the host. Produced by Dan Sinker, edited by Josie A. 588 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 5: Zahm Our. 589 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 3: Assistant editor is Jennifer Dean. Music composed by Charlie Sun, 590 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 3: Sound design and mixing by Josie A. Zahm Our. Theme 591 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 3: song is all the Things I Couldn't Say, performed by 592 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 3: Bussy and the Bass, courtesy of Arts and Crafts Productions, Inc. 593 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 3: Our production coordinator is Kyle Hinton. Our clearance coordinator is 594 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 3: Anna Sun Andshine. Production accounting by Dilfried Singh. Additional research 595 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 3: support from Janie Dillard. Executive producers for Ninth Planet Audio 596 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 3: are Elizabeth Baqutt and Jimmy Miller. Special thanks to Jay 597 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 3: Becker and the whole team at BLDG, the Florence y'alls, 598 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 3: Amber Hoffmann, Hillary Delaney, and Leslie Chambers. If you have 599 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 3: a racist mascot at your high school, or are an 600 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 3: alumni of a high school with a racist mascot and 601 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 3: want to share your own experience, please email us at 602 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 3: Rebel Spirit Podcast at gmail dot com. We would love 603 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 3: to hear from you.