1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: From a cocoa punch at iHeartRadio. This is the turning 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: I'm Erica Lance, Part nine, Highway of Broken Glass. Over 3 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: the time I've worked on this podcast, one word has 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: come up again and again. 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 2: It was like a cult thing. 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 3: If you look at the characteristics of cults, it's like 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 3: unswerving obedience to a charismatic leader. 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 4: Check one doesn't always know where to draw the line 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 4: between religion and cult. 10 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,319 Speaker 5: You're only getting input from one source. You're isolated from 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 5: everyone else. And that's what I mean by Brian washing, 12 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 5: and that's why it sometimes reminds me of a cult. 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: I tried to leave the word cult out of conversations 14 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: with former sisters, or at least not be the one 15 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: to bring it up first. My fear was that once 16 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: that word was on the table, it would shave the 17 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: sisters retelling of their time in the MCS. But the 18 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: comparisons kept coming up, for example, control over media, how 19 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,839 Speaker 1: the missionaries of charity are only allowed to read books 20 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: at they're mistress assigns to them. 21 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 5: You couldn't read the newspaper here, the radio, anything like that. 22 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 4: We weren't supposed to be looking around at anything really, 23 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 4: And that was called keeping custody of the eyes. 24 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: Another example, sisters are cut off from their families and 25 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: past lives. 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 4: I didn't know that I'd only get to write a 27 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 4: letter home once a month. I didn't know that I'd 28 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 4: only get to visit my family once every ten years. 29 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 4: I had no idea about all. 30 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: Of that limited sleep. I've heard so many sisters mention 31 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: the late nights and early mornings, always waking at four 32 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: forty am, which might impact a person's ability to think critically. 33 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: Early morning meditation was a struggle. 34 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 4: I was always tired as a missionary of charity, and 35 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 4: so most of that half hour. Very often, and not always, 36 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 4: but very often, it was just a struggle to stay awake. 37 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,639 Speaker 3: Sisters were seeing us more holy. If you needed less sleep, 38 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 3: you were strong. You could take a lot of physical 39 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 3: pain and not complain and offer it up. There was, 40 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 3: whether it was conscious or not. There was a lot 41 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 3: of value put on that. 42 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 2: And every day we scrubbed the same patch of floor 43 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: for half an hour, and I was exhausted, and I 44 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: remember thinking I could have used that extra half hour 45 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: of sleep instead of scrubbing the same piece of floor 46 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 2: that was clean every morning. 47 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: Then there's a claim that the MC has kept sisters 48 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: from thinking for themselves. 49 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 3: The order was wired that you had very little time 50 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 3: to think. 51 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: And the rules a rigid enforcement of rules. Mary Johnson 52 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: says that as she rose through the ranks, she was 53 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: told by a superior that she should be more firm 54 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 1: with sisters under her. For example, if a sister fell 55 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: asleep during meditation, Mary should take the sister to the kitchen, 56 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: cut an onion and make the sister put its juice 57 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: in her eyes. Do you think you were in a cult? 58 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 3: I think we had cult tendencies. This is my personal opinion. Obviously. 59 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 3: I think to be in a cult, the leader has 60 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 3: to have clarity of what they're doing. And I definitely, 61 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 3: unequivocally do not believe that was the purpose. Like I 62 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 3: believe some of the outcomes happened, but no, I definitely 63 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 3: that's That would be the only reason I wouldn't think 64 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 3: we were in a cult. That I was in a cult. 65 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 3: Do I think people who come out of it need 66 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 3: help deprogramming on some levels? Absolutely? 67 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: Clearly it's complicated. So when people ask me outright, are 68 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: the missionaries of charity occult? I don't have an answer. 69 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: I'm not exactly what a cult is. 70 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 6: And I'm even hesitant to use that word just because 71 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 6: it's a charged word. 72 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: This is Alan Lancelesser. She's a producer on this show, 73 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: and you might remember she's my sister. And she dug 74 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: into this question, what is a cult? Do the mcs qualify? 75 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:18,799 Speaker 1: And this is the first time I'm hearing what she learned. 76 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 6: So I reached out to a cult expert, a sociologist 77 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 6: named doctor Yanya Lalich. She's written books on it, She's 78 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 6: researched it. 79 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 7: I mean, I was in a cult myself, and so 80 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 7: for years I wanted to leave, but I couldn't figure 81 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 7: out how to leave. 82 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 6: Oh and she says she was in a Marxist Leninist 83 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 6: Fanguard Party cult. 84 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 7: Oh wow. 85 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 6: But eventually it was dissolved. 86 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 7: And so in the end we all got out at 87 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 7: the same time. But when you've so internalized the belief system, 88 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 7: it becomes very difficult to leave because you know you 89 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 7: doubt yourself. When you have these thoughts, you have negative thoughts, 90 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 7: you have to immediately shut them away because first of all, 91 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 7: there's no way to talk about them, there's no way 92 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 7: to entertain those ideas. And you're also at the same 93 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 7: time kind of chastising yourself or even having those ideas 94 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 7: and thinking that you know, there's something wrong with you, 95 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 7: that you're not being as good a true believer as 96 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 7: everyone else. 97 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: That sounds familiar. That almost perfectly describes a number of 98 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: former sisters we interviewed. 99 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 6: How they felt, Yeah, that feeling of am I alone 100 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 6: in these questions or doubts. 101 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: And also they're not able to have personal conversations with 102 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 1: their fellow sisters, so they'd think that I'm just the 103 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: problem child. 104 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 6: Yeah, and you didn't talk about why people left. Oh yeah, 105 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 6: So I described the basics to her, how the sisters 106 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 6: are extreme in their vows, how sisters join the order 107 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 6: not knowing what it really entails, the emphasis on suffering 108 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 6: for the sake of salvation, you know, the limited contact 109 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 6: with the outside world. 110 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 7: It sounds like you're cult to me. I mean, it's 111 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 7: obviously very extreme and using techniques that really break a 112 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 7: person down, which is what happens in call. Yeah it 113 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 7: doesn't sound good. 114 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, that's not what I think I expected to 115 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: hear her start with. 116 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 7: To me, this would certainly fit a lot of the 117 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 7: criteria of being a cult. 118 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: So what are the criteria for a cult. 119 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 6: Basically, there are three criteria she mentioned off. 120 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 7: The bat well. First of all, there's the authoritarian leader 121 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 7: who demands all loyalty, who cannot be questioned, who cannot 122 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 7: be criticized. 123 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 6: There aren't any checks and balances on that person, and 124 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 6: whatever they say kind of goes. Second, there's a structured 125 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 6: sort of belief system. 126 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 7: Sort of what I call a transcendent belief system, which 127 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 7: gives you the answers to everything past, present, in the future. 128 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 6: That belief system will go I do. 129 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 7: And requires of self transformation to allow you to be 130 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 7: on that path. 131 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 6: And then third, basically, there are these strategies that are 132 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 6: in place to reinforce the indoctrination and basically keep you 133 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 6: in the group and keep you isolated from the outside world. 134 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 6: I mean, there are examples of this in the MC's, 135 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 6: like the fact that you can only write home once 136 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 6: a month. You're not supposed to really talk about your 137 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 6: time inside. 138 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,239 Speaker 1: One thing that strikes me, for example, what the first 139 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: one is authoritarian leader? Like the word authoritarian sounds so negative, 140 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: and I know, I don't think the average person would think, oh, 141 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: mother Treesa is an authoritarian leader. It is true that 142 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: she said the rules for the order, and anyone that 143 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: was a superior had power without checks and balances. So 144 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: maybe it is an accurate description, it's just such a 145 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: harsh term. 146 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 6: I think the thing about Mother Trees is that she 147 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 6: had this humility about her, like I. She had this 148 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 6: like focusing in all her speeches on the poor and 149 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 6: love and on Jesus and sort of being this humble servant. 150 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,239 Speaker 6: I think of the Medal of Freedom speech where she says, 151 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 6: you know, this isn't about me. 152 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, So it feels a little different than some charismatic 153 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: leaders that are just so self focused. It's sheathed in humility, 154 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: So it does feel different, even though a lot of 155 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: things feel the same. 156 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 6: Definitely. And something I didn't want to gloss over in 157 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 6: this discussion is that the missiaries of Charity are part 158 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 6: of an organized religion. So what really differentiates a religion 159 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 6: from a cult, because I think sometimes there's this fine 160 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 6: line and maybe there's even a gray area. 161 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 7: Yeah. The way I see it's the difference between a 162 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 7: cult and a healthy religion is that a healthy religion 163 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 7: is going to have you worshiping some type of of 164 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 7: higher being, you know, whether it's God or Jesus or 165 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 7: a llah or Buddha or a tree or whatever. Right, 166 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 7: but you're not expected to worship this human person right 167 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 7: in front. 168 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 6: Of you, Which I don't know if that fits Mother Teresa, 169 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 6: because my impression is that it wasn't as if MC 170 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 6: sisters were literally worshiping Mother Teresa. 171 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 7: Well, you know, I think what I mean by that 172 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 7: is that person becomes all powerful. That person is clearly 173 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 7: the one who is calling all the shots and the 174 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 7: one who you must obey. While they may still worship 175 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 7: God or Jesus, the human authoritarian figure intervenes and you know, 176 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 7: declares herself the voice of God. 177 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 4: Yeah. 178 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 1: So when she says a leader who declares herself the 179 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: voice of God, it's like, I don't think Mother Teresa say, 180 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: I declare I'm the voice of God. You know, like 181 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: that doesn't sound like Mother Teresa. And yet and yet 182 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: the Superiors are the voice of God. I mean that 183 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: is the phrase we heard over and over again. And 184 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: she is the superior of the sunperariors. 185 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 6: Yeah. 186 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 7: Yeah. 187 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 6: And you know one other question that I remember you 188 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 6: brought up with me that you were wondering that you 189 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 6: wanted answered at one point when we were reporting the story, 190 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 6: was do ethical cults exist. Oh yeah, and so yeah. 191 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 6: I was curious about that too, so I asked doctor 192 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 6: Lalich and this is what she said. 193 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 7: In my opinion, there's no such thing as a benign 194 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 7: cult because part of what for me defines a cult 195 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 7: is the person giving up their autonomy, giving up their self. 196 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 7: And once you give up your autonomy, I don't see 197 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 7: that as a good thing. So I don't care if 198 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 7: it's a chocolate chip cookie cult. It's not good that 199 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 7: you've given up your autonomy and your own decision making powers. 200 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: I think it makes sense if you are someone who 201 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 1: believes that independent thought is inherently a good thing, any 202 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: group that's taking that away would be seen as bad. Honestly. 203 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: It also makes me kind of question myself and whether 204 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: I'm too easy sometimes on the missionaries of charity. Hmm, 205 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: what do you mean, I'm trying so hard to see 206 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: everything from different people's perspectives, Like I'm really trying to 207 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: keep an open mind. And if am I keeping such 208 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: an open mind that I'm not seeing what's in front 209 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: of me, does that help me see it better? Or 210 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: does that actually blind me a little bit? Like we're 211 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: going to have such different reactions from different listeners. 212 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think some people would say, you 213 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 6: talk to a cult expert in reference to the missionary 214 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 6: of charity. They might be offended by that. Yeah, But 215 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 6: to me, what really sticks out about what she's saying 216 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 6: is that giving up of autonomy. And if nothing else, 217 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 6: if the missionaries of charity don't meet some of these 218 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 6: other standards, they do meet this standard, that giving up 219 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 6: of self. I mean that literal emptying of self. We've 220 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 6: heard from the sisters. Jesus must increase, I must decrease. 221 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 6: It's just about the reduction of autonomy to be a 222 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 6: pencil in God's hand, and so they are discouraged from 223 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 6: thinking for themselves. But I think the counter argument is 224 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 6: that their spirituality is about that, that there's this intentional 225 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 6: emptying or draining of self. There's almost like a knowing 226 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 6: letting go of self, And there's something beautiful and meaningful 227 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 6: about that. For some of these women, in their perspective, 228 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 6: it brings them closer to God, and why should others? 229 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 4: It is a. 230 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: Beautiful thing to let go of yourself and your own 231 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: needs and desires for a larger picture, a bigger, higher 232 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: purpose or meeting. Yeah, So then I mean, given all 233 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: these barriers to leaving, I kind of thought, well, what 234 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: allows people to eventually leave? 235 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 4: Then? 236 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 7: Well, I think what happens is I think everyone who's 237 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 7: in a cultic situation, even the true believers, everyone has 238 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 7: doubts and everyone has hesitations, and so because you can't 239 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 7: do anything with them. The way I see it is 240 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 7: that you keep shoving these things in the back of 241 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 7: your head. 242 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 6: And she used this metaphor of a shelf, this. 243 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 7: Shelf in the back of your head, and finally something 244 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 7: will happen, you know, that'll break that shelf. It'll be 245 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 7: one too many things. And once that shelf breaks and 246 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 7: these doubts come spilling out, you know, then you kind 247 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 7: of have this aha moment like, oh my god, I've 248 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 7: got to get out of here. This is not healthy, 249 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 7: this is whatever you know, this is wrong. I have 250 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:05,719 Speaker 7: to get out of here. 251 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 6: It's not Also, as if once that shelf breaks you 252 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 6: immediately walk out, you have to come up with a 253 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 6: plan for how to extricate yourself. 254 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,719 Speaker 1: That also really resonates with what we've heard, definitely. 255 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 6: But all of this also just makes me think about 256 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 6: what is it actually like when you're there, You're in 257 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 6: your sorry your hair is cut short. You've been living 258 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 6: this life for potential years and to feel like you 259 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 6: want to leave. And we've heard that before from people 260 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 6: of just those thoughts of like how do I get out? 261 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 6: I don't know how to get out, and then like 262 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 6: to just look to the future, what will my future be? 263 00:14:52,280 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 6: I just can't imagine how difficult that would be. 264 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: A lot of former sisters we spoke to didn't want 265 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: to be recorded, and that includes all of the former 266 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: sisters we talked to who are originally from India. That's 267 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: an important perspective because a lot of missionaries of charity 268 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: are Indian. That was part of Mother Teresa's vision from 269 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: the beginning. In my mind, not being able to hear 270 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: their voices is something that's been missing in this podcast. 271 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: One phone call with a former sister from India hit 272 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: us hard. She repeatedly said that being an MC was 273 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: like slavery. She said the impact was like a quote 274 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: shadow on your mind, the way of thinking, the innability, 275 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: need to make friends, the relentless skills. She said, it 276 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: stays with you. And she felt that life inside the 277 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: empty society was so busy it left no time to think. 278 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: She said there was quote a lot of brainwashing going on. 279 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: Collette Livermore, the Australian sister whose story we've been following, 280 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: she used the same language. 281 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 5: What is brainwashing. Brainwashing is that you you've only got one 282 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 5: source of information. They know everything about you, even your 283 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 5: most personal thoughts, and if you start to think you 284 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 5: want out, they're there to sort of talk you out 285 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 5: of it. 286 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: Collette tried to leave the Missionaries of Charity in nineteen eighty. 287 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: She knelt in front of Mother Teresa and Kolcutta and 288 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: said she wanted to leave, but Mother Teresa pressured her 289 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: to stay. 290 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 5: She's the saint omn sinner, let's be right, Ah. I 291 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 5: just knelt there until she dismissed me. 292 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: So Collette stayed and took her final vows. In our interviews, 293 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: Collette repeatedly questioned why she hadn't left sooner. She often 294 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: blamed herself. She'd say she wished she had more of 295 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: a spine, more confidence to take action, But she also 296 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: seemed keenly aware of some of the pressures that kept 297 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: her there. 298 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 5: You cut off from your family and you can't you 299 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 5: haven't got a friend, and you're just struggling to survive. 300 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 1: Collette remembers how sisters would report on each other, like 301 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: a time she was accused of having a particular friendship. 302 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 5: The girl I joined with Ruth. She and I had 303 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 5: walked the mother house together. It just happened, and we 304 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 5: were saying the Rosary along the way, and we just 305 00:17:54,480 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 5: happened to walk together. And this was reported because we're 306 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 5: never usually together, and so I just exploded, and and 307 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 5: then I was then you have to go through the 308 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 5: whole rigmarole of kneeling down and confessing your lack of 309 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 5: self control. 310 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: And it just went on and on again and again. 311 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: Her superiors admonished her for thinking for herself. She says 312 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: she learns to question the motives of everything she did. 313 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 5: It's a very negative atmosphere, you know. It's like emotional abuse, 314 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 5: and it's not good for a person in any way, 315 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 5: because if you suffer emotional abuse all the time and 316 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 5: insecurity all the time, there'll be a point where you'll 317 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 5: just crack up and you won't be kind. And I 318 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 5: honestly feel that some people living under that regime have 319 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 5: become more bitter and angry and not their true selves. 320 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 5: But I don't know, I don't I feel like I'm 321 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 5: being too negative, you know, like it wasn't all miserable. 322 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 5: Like every time you see the sisters, they'd be smiling 323 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 5: at everything. The spirit of the society was total surrender, loving, trust, 324 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 5: and cheerfulness. No matter what happened, you were supposed to 325 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 5: be cheerful. But it was just these internal things that problematic. 326 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 5: I'm mostly talking about the system. 327 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: Collat's says the system taught you to doubt yourself, but 328 00:19:48,600 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: she also started to doubt her place and the system. 329 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: By nineteen eighty three, Collette Livermore had been a sister 330 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: with the Missionaries of Charity for ten years. Then she 331 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: was transferred to an MC house in Australia, her home country. 332 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: So on the way to her new assignment, she was 333 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 1: allowed to visit her family. She met her mother and 334 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: sister at a train station and they ran up to 335 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: greet her. All three of them were in tears. When 336 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,239 Speaker 1: Collette left Australia for the MC's her sister was ten 337 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: years old. Now she was a young woman. 338 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:58,719 Speaker 5: So it's in my own country and the culture clash, 339 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 5: the the way of doing things was even more jngly, 340 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 5: you know, it just wasn't didn't feel right. 341 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: Collette was stationed in Burke and the Outback, about four 342 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: hundred miles from home. 343 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 5: It just seemed culturally inappropriate the way we were behaving 344 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 5: with the Aboriginal people, trying to call them for Sunday 345 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 5: Mass when they didn't want to go, the kids didn't 346 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 5: want to go. 347 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: At this point, it felt like a daily struggle to 348 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: stay in the order. 349 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 5: I knew that I couldn't go on like this, and 350 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 5: I think, if you're not true to yourself, you quite 351 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 5: literally lose yourself. You're not who you are. 352 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: Finally, she told her superior she was done. The superior 353 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: had her see a priest. He told Collette her desire 354 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: to leave was the result of an evil spirit. Besides, 355 00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: he said, what would you do? 356 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 6: You go? 357 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: Colette said she wanted to study medicine, and he told 358 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: her that was pride talking. It was an impossible dream. 359 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: A novice mistress whom Collette had previously worked with, wrote 360 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: to her. She said Collette had to walk through a 361 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: dark night of the soul. The crisis she was feeling 362 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: would purify her. Colette says this was insidious because it 363 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: flattered her. A dark knight was a sign of saintliness, 364 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: but Even with that in mind, she says, she felt 365 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: like she was cracking. 366 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 5: Up, and so I finally wrote to mother. I said, 367 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 5: please don't delay this anymore. I really need to leave. 368 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: She didn't give the letter to her superior like she 369 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: was supposed to. Collette was often in charge of the 370 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: shopping and on one of her trips she mailed the 371 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 1: letter to Kolkutta herself. About six weeks later, Collette got 372 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: her answer. 373 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 5: Mother Teresa's writing was very distinctive. I knew what it was. 374 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: All of the other sisters in the house there were 375 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: only four of them, had gone to a nearby city 376 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: for medical appointments. 377 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 5: Collette was alone, which is unheard the first time ever 378 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 5: in the house time I was in the society. 379 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: She stepped out of the house and onto a dirt 380 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: road nicknames the Crystal Highway because of all of the 381 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: broken glass. She stood there, let her in hand, the 382 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:30,719 Speaker 1: shards glinting and lighting the way to the horizon, and 383 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: she read, my dearest child, you are asking for a 384 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: year of absence. I personally don't like it, but the 385 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: church permits it. If you still want it, you can 386 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: go home to your mother for three months without the 387 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: religious stress be careful when you are out, for you 388 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: carry in your heart the precious treasure, your vocation, your vows. 389 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: I will pray much for you. Do not let the 390 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: evil one deceive you. You belong to Jesus. He loves 391 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: you you. God bless you Mother, Teresa mc Yes. 392 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 5: I'm free. The Superior was terribly distressed, tearful, but I 393 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 5: was out and it was a big relief. Yeah, I 394 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 5: was out. 395 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: Mary Johnson would stay in the order for twenty years, 396 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: and she didn't know it yet, but her time there 397 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: was slowly running out. 398 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 4: What made me want to stay really was the deep 399 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 4: conviction that God wanted me there. That's why I stayed, 400 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 4: because I felt like I was called and whatever the 401 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 4: circumstances were, whether they were happy and beautiful times or 402 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 4: whether they were sustained periods of not so great God 403 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 4: had called me there, and that was what was important. 404 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: But there was something else major going on in her life. 405 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: Mary had fallen in love. One day she was on 406 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: a train back from a trip to Florence. It was 407 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 1: nineteen years in When the train entered a tunnel in 408 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: a mountainside, everything went dark. 409 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 4: She slid out. 410 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: The crucifix that was always at her side. The one 411 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa had given her many years before this was 412 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: the crucifix that she put on her pillow every night 413 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: when she prayed, and every night before bed, she kissed 414 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: the crucifix, kissed each of Jesus's five wounds. On the 415 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: train in the dark, she ran her fingers up and 416 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: down its sides, and she started to think. She thought 417 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: about her years as an MC, what it all meant, 418 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: what she was doing with her life, how she was 419 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: doing as an MC. She knew she'd broken her vows 420 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: more than once. This time she'd fallen in love with 421 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: a priest. We call him Father Tom here, but that's 422 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: not his real name. And then there was the time 423 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: she broke her vows when she was alone with Tom 424 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: in the hospital. She knew she still craved that intimacy. 425 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 4: Not too long after our experience in the hospital, Tom 426 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 4: told me that he was being transferred. It was like, 427 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 4: all right, Dan, what can we do. That's the end 428 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 4: of that. 429 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: She had stashed a glossy photo of him in the 430 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: folds of her spare Sorry. She would sometimes take it 431 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: out and look at his face. She knew this photo 432 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: broke three of her vows. Poverty which didn't allow extra possessions. 433 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: Chastity was forbade this type of relationship and obedience, which 434 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: required that her superior know about her possession of the item, 435 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: But she couldn't seem to help herself. She hit the photo, 436 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 1: but now Father Tom was far away and she was 437 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: still stuck with her doubts and questions. They rushed through 438 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: her mind as she rode that train back to the convent. 439 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 4: I just was holding Jesus on the cross in my 440 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 4: hands and wondering what am I going to do? I 441 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 4: feel so conflicted, and it's not just about Tom. It's 442 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 4: also about being asked to do things that just don't 443 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 4: really sit right with me. It's about feeling so conflicted 444 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 4: about the things my superiors were doing. The organization didn't 445 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 4: look like the one that I had joined so many 446 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 4: years earlier. I had to make a decision, and I 447 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 4: couldn't be kind of one foot in, one foot out. 448 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: So she made a plan. She decided she would spend 449 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: one year keeping all of the rules, doing. 450 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 4: The best I can to be exactly the sort of 451 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 4: missionary of charity that Mother Teresa would approve of. 452 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: She told herself that if at the end of the 453 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 1: year she could be herself, her true self and still 454 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: be a missionary of charity. She'd make a firm commitment 455 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: to stay, but if not, she'd. 456 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 4: Leave because I didn't feel like God wanted me to 457 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 4: be somebody other than the person he made me. 458 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: Of course, to fulfill that pact to be a good 459 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: missionary of charity, she knew she'd have to give up 460 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: Tom and his photograph, so she took it from its 461 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: hiding place and brought it to the chapel. 462 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 4: There was a candle burning, and I held that photo 463 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 4: up to the candle and watched us as the photo 464 00:28:52,520 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 4: turned to ash, and it felt cleaner. It felt cleaner. 465 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: She gathered the ashes and blew them out the window. 466 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: Mary was then assigned to be superior of a house 467 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: and tore Bella monica at the northern edge of Rome. 468 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: The previous superior had just disappeared, no explanation, just left. 469 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: She hadn't seemed to be in distress, but she was gone. Now, 470 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: leaving without permission was considered a disgrace to one's self 471 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: and the community, and now it was Mary's job to 472 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: replace her. Mary says she tried to be a compassionate superior. 473 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: She lets sisters sleep a little extra On Thursdays, she 474 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: let one sister drink coffee early to fight off drowsiness 475 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: during meditation, and another she let work in the garden. 476 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: She also tried to infuse her mission work with new meaning. 477 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 4: I want to help the poor people get out of poverty, 478 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 4: not just make them a little bit more comfortable being poor. 479 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,479 Speaker 4: You know, I had tried, when I was superior to 480 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 4: get some programs in place which would actually do that, 481 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 4: and I couldn't get permission to do it. No. No, 482 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 4: we'll house them, will feed them, and then we'll put 483 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 4: them back out on the street without any more help 484 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 4: than that. 485 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: That wasn't enough for Mary. She felt like a robot 486 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: just following rules. We should help people live a full life, she. 487 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 4: Thought, and I wanted that full life for myself. 488 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: Throughout her time as a missionary of charity, Mary often 489 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: attended vow ceremonies. They happened every six months. 490 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 4: There were first vows, there were final vows. 491 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: She'd always thought these events were joyful, hopeful occasions. They 492 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: were a chance for her to silently renew her own 493 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: vows to herself. 494 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 4: I knew all the words that ceremony by heart, every 495 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 4: single one of them. 496 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: But this time, when she attended an MC vow ceremony, 497 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: she didn't know if she could silently renew those vows. 498 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: Her mind kept slipping back and forth. This was the 499 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: year she had decided to give herself fully as a 500 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: gift to God. Then she thought, but what right did 501 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: God have to take everything? She stopped herself. No, she 502 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: was giving, God wasn't taking. She was Sister Donata, the 503 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: freely given one. But then why was it that as 504 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: she screwed her eyes shut, trying to quell the built 505 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: up resentment, she felt tears streamed down her face. Finally, 506 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: she prayed, God, I cursed the day you placed that 507 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: woman's wrinkled face on the cover of Time magazine. This 508 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: is not love. 509 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 4: As the sisters took their vows, something inside of me 510 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 4: is like yelling, don't do it, don't do it. I 511 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 4: was like sitting back in the pews and I just 512 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 4: trying to stay in my seat there, but wanting to 513 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 4: run from the church. 514 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: It was nineteen ninety six Mary Johnson's twentieth year in 515 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: the MCS. As the end of her one year promised 516 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: to fully follow the rules approached, she asked to take 517 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: double penance. She thought it would bring her clarity and strength. 518 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: She tightened the chains around her arm and waist twice 519 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: a day. She hit her legs double the number of times. 520 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: She no longer believed God took pleasure in her pain, 521 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: but she did it anyway. You know, I've been thinking 522 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: about this decision because it's such a big one, and 523 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: I was trying to figure out for myself what was 524 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: the last straw, what was the thing? And then I 525 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: kind of I started thinking about my own life and 526 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: times when I've made big decisions, and often there isn't 527 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: a moment, or if there's a moment, it's not a 528 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: moment of decision. It's moment of realizing I've already decided, 529 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: like I've kind of known for a while. 530 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 4: One of the things I've been doing for the past 531 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 4: couple of years is studying the brain the way we 532 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 4: make decisions. And there's a lot of controversy about that 533 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 4: among neuroscientists and people who study these things really closely, 534 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 4: and it seems that a lot of decisions actually get 535 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 4: made before the person is conscious that the decision has 536 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 4: been made. All of these different experiments, even just real 537 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 4: simple things like you can raise your hand whenever you 538 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 4: want to raise your hand, And the scans of the 539 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 4: brain shows that the brain knows that you're going to 540 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 4: make that decision before you know that you're going to 541 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 4: make that decision. So I think the whole, you know, 542 00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 4: big decision making thing, it is not necessarily like a 543 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 4: moment that we are fully conscious of that there are 544 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 4: all kinds of background things going on in our psychees, 545 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 4: in our brains that were not always aware of, and 546 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 4: then we become aware of them. 547 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: I think what Mary's getting at here is that by 548 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: the time she actually took action to leave, something deep 549 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: inside her already knew, like there is an element of inevitability. 550 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: I wonder if that's what allowed her to accept her 551 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: own decision. She knew she'd sort of already made it, 552 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: Mary remembers. On Christmas Day nineteen ninety six, an mc 553 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: priest shared his own story in a homily. Something about 554 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: it struck her cut to the core of her decision 555 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: on mother to leave, and. 556 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 4: He said that a year ago he left the fathers 557 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 4: because he didn't even know if he wanted to be 558 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 4: a priest anymore. So he said he went away praying 559 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 4: and thinking and struggling, but at the end he'd come 560 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 4: to the conclusion that he would never be happier than 561 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 4: as a priest. 562 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: So he came back to the MC fathers. Then he 563 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 1: told them. 564 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 4: God works in very surprising ways, and we must not 565 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 4: be afraid to follow the stars he sends us, even 566 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 4: if the journey takes us to unexpected places. 567 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: That night, Mary held a pillow over her head to 568 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: stifle the sound of her sobbing. She didn't want the 569 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: sisters to hear. 570 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 4: I just knew, but I cried, and over the next 571 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 4: few days, I wrote that letter. 572 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 1: On January first, nineteen ninety seven, she wrote to Mother Teresa. 573 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: She asked to start the official process to leave the MCS. 574 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: It's called excostration. It would involve a year away from 575 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: the MCS before fully leaving the Order, when Mary could 576 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: pray and discern her path. It's sort of like a 577 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,439 Speaker 1: leave of absence. If after a year, Mary still felt 578 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: leaving the Order was best, she would request permission from 579 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: the Pope for a dispensation from her vows. Mary told 580 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa she loved the sisters and was grateful, but 581 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: she was leaving and she would not change her mind, 582 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: even though it was the first of the month. Mary 583 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: decided not to cut her hair that night, as she 584 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: usually did. 585 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 4: Mother Teresa had told us, never go a month without 586 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 4: cutting your hair. She said that that road only led 587 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 4: to leaving the convent. But I was lucky because my 588 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,959 Speaker 4: hair was curly, and even as it grew, it didn't 589 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,760 Speaker 4: grow out in a way that could be seen. 590 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: She also stopped taking the discipline. She never would again. 591 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 4: I didn't leave the convent without faith, without trust, without hope, 592 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 4: without love. I had a lot of it. I just 593 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 4: did leave because I had turned against God or my vocation, 594 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 4: or because I was bitter. I left because I believed 595 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 4: God wanted people to flourish, and I knew I wasn't 596 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 4: flourishing there, So how could it possibly be that God 597 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 4: wanted me to stay? And lots and lots of prayer, 598 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 4: lots and lots of discernment. 599 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: Mary felt called by God to a new place. Around 600 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: this time, Father Tom was so far away in another country. 601 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 4: Before he left, we had had an agreement that if 602 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 4: anything important happened, we would let each other know, so 603 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 4: I had his phone number. I called him and told 604 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 4: him that I had received permission to leave. The missionaries 605 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,439 Speaker 4: of charity on a one year leave of absence. And 606 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 4: when I told Tom that I would be leaving for 607 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 4: a while, he asked, does this mean that you would 608 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 4: consider marrying me? And that question just kind of floored 609 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,720 Speaker 4: me because I wasn't expecting it, and it wasn't really 610 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 4: a proposal either. It was like, what did he mean? 611 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 4: And I wasn't leaving to marry him. I was leaving 612 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 4: really to be myself, to find my own way. And 613 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:32,879 Speaker 4: I felt like I loved father Tom so much, and 614 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 4: I was scared that it would be a distraction for me. 615 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 4: I felt like I really needed to figure out what 616 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 4: God wanted of me. 617 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: So Mary wrote him a letter, pages and pages. She 618 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: said she loved him, she would always love him, but 619 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: she needed time to find her path. She said, during 620 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: her year's excustration her leave of absence, they would contact 621 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: each other, not a phone call, not a letter. When 622 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,720 Speaker 1: she finished writing, she felt peace, and then she waited 623 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: for other Teresa's response. 624 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 4: By this time, she was quite old and she wasn't 625 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 4: always remembering things. And I received a letter back, signed 626 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 4: by her. It was kind of a form letter, but 627 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 4: she had signed it giving me permission to leave. 628 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: She wasn't supposed to tell anyone about the news. Yet 629 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: she wouldn't tell any of the priests and volunteers she 630 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: worked with until right before she left. When the time came, 631 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 1: she would say, as instructed, I'm going to America to 632 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,360 Speaker 1: be closer with my family. Is there is some trouble. 633 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 4: The sisters really wanted to contain any sort of public 634 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 4: relations damage that might come. 635 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: Like any sister who was transferred, she'd have no contact 636 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: with the people she left behind. She'd give up the 637 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: relationships she'd formed over twenty years. But she wanted to 638 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:57,359 Speaker 1: warn the sisters under her care. 639 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,720 Speaker 4: There were just six sisters us their superior I told 640 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 4: them a few days before I left that that was 641 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:06,280 Speaker 4: what was happening. 642 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: Did you feel like they understood? 643 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 4: I don't think they had any idea the degree to 644 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 4: which I had been struggling and praying and discerning. 645 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: Whenever Mary visited the larger convent nearby, sisters would cry 646 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: and ask her if it was true. The sister who'd 647 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: once been Mary's supervisor in the kitchen when she was 648 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: a novice nineteen years before, the sister burned by boiling 649 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: pasta water. She wept. Some sisters told Mary she was 650 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 1: making a mistake that she'd regret leaving for the rest 651 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: of her life. But in the end, the sisters and 652 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,280 Speaker 1: Mary's convent helped her get ready. 653 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,760 Speaker 4: They helped to saw some clothes for me, a skirt 654 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 4: and a blouse. 655 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: A brown Paisley skirt and a dark gold blouse Mary 656 00:40:53,120 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: called at her getaway outfit. Mary didn't want to discuss 657 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: her departure with Mother Teresa in person. She'd gotten permission 658 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: to leave in a form letter, and Mother Teresa was 659 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: eighty six and frail. Mary thought the news might give 660 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: her a heart attack. But things didn't go as planned. 661 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 4: She came to Rome where I was, and somebody reminded 662 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:25,399 Speaker 4: her that shortly I would be leaving. And she came 663 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,399 Speaker 4: and she found me, and she brought me to her 664 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 4: room and she says, what is this? Mother, here's about you? 665 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 4: So what is it? Mother tears about you? And I said, Mother, 666 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 4: I'm leaving, and she couldn't believe it, and she tried 667 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 4: to convince me to stay, and just seemed very very, 668 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 4: very very difficult situation. 669 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: In conversation, Mary knew Mother wanted explanations and there are 670 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: countless things she wanted to say more than anything. Mary 671 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 1: wanted to talk with this woman who had defined her life, 672 00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: to tell her everything she felt, to explain Mother. She 673 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,280 Speaker 1: wanted to say, My God isn't like yours. Your God 674 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,839 Speaker 1: asks you to deny yourself. He counts each sacrifice. Your 675 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 1: God is Jesus crucified. Mine is the God of resurrection, 676 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: who says, enough of this suffering, Let's heal the world 677 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: Above all, She wanted Mother Teresa to know she loved her. 678 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 1: Did Mother know how much? Mother Teresa said, Sister, listen 679 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 1: to mother. Talk to Mother. She hid her hand on 680 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 1: the desk with each word. But Mary knew if she 681 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,319 Speaker 1: started listing her reasons for going, it would turn into 682 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: a dialog. She knew what Mother Teresa would say, what 683 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,760 Speaker 1: persuasive argument she'd launch into, and she knew Mother Teresa 684 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,280 Speaker 1: would be convincing. She still had a power over Mary's psyche, 685 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:51,800 Speaker 1: and at. 686 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 4: A certain point, she says, Mother could believe this about anyone, 687 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 4: but she cannot believe it about you. And we never 688 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,239 Speaker 4: had another conversation. That was the last conversation I had 689 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:11,840 Speaker 4: with her. I left as she died three months later, 690 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 4: and I still dream about her from time to time. 691 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: On a spring morning, in nineteen ninety seven, Mary Johnson 692 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,840 Speaker 1: woke up in the convent dormitory, but instead of putting 693 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 1: on her sorry, she reached for the paisley skirt and blouse. 694 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,919 Speaker 1: Instead of hanging the crucifix at her side, she picked 695 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 1: it up and kissed it, then put Jesus in her bag. 696 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,800 Speaker 1: What did it feel like to put on regular clothes 697 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:52,280 Speaker 1: after all these years? 698 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 4: The strangest thing about putting on regular clothes for me 699 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 4: was I could feel the wind on my calves. I 700 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 4: mean didn't go all the way to the floor, and 701 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 4: just like that, part of me hadn't felt wind in 702 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 4: so long, So that was really strange. 703 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: As Mary stepped out the door, the short curls on 704 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 1: her head moved ever so slightly in the breeze. More 705 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 1: than half her life had been in a convent. She 706 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: was thirty nine years old. Now she just needed to 707 00:44:21,680 --> 00:45:14,439 Speaker 1: figure out what next. The Turning is written by Allen 708 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: lance Lester and Me. Our producers are Allen lance Luster 709 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,400 Speaker 1: and Emily Foreman. Our editor is Rob Rosenthal. Andrea Assuage 710 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: is our digital producer. Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. 711 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: Special thanks to doctor yan Yo Lalich, Professor Emerita of 712 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:34,280 Speaker 1: Sociology at California State University, Chico, and Amy Gaines, Sarah Ohlander, 713 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:39,320 Speaker 1: Maraud Fishcoff, Bethan Macaluso, Travis Dunlap, and consulting producer Mary Johnson. 714 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: Her memoir and Unquenchable Thirst provided inspiration for this series. 715 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Jessica Alpert and John Parati from 716 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: Rococo Punch and Katrina Norvell from iHeartRadio. Our theme music 717 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: is by Matt Reid. For photos and more details on 718 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,719 Speaker 1: the series, follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch. You 719 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: can reach out via email to the Turning at Rococoapunch 720 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: dot com I America Lands. Thanks for listening.