WEBVTT - Ep. 298: Cooking Captain Cook 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.680 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening Hunt podcast. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:23.360 You can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:27.920 versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:37.440 for every hunt first like go farther, stay longer. That's 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:41.519 the island greeting. Okay, ready, make sure to cut out 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:49.840 KLS singing. Joined today by very famous author Hampton Sides Listen. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.479 I don't Anthon, I don't want to reduce your I mean, 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:54.840 you've written a lot of books, man, but I want 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:56.480 to say this Blood and Thunder is a hell of 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.960 a damn book. Agreed, God, it's a good book. Well, 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:02.840 thank you. I just reread talking I reread the whole. 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.080 I was going to like refresh. I was looking through 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:11.000 like what I had downloaded on my phone from a 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:14.520 way ago. I was like oh, And then I was like, man, 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:15.759 I'm wanna get I want to see when you get 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.360 that guy on the podcast. And I was like, I 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:23.640 reread from start to finish. This is such a good book. 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:25.399 But I mean, you know what, you probably hate talking 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:27.039 about it because you wrote along. You've written so much 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:29.960 stuff since then. Uh. No, authors never get tired of 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.680 talking about their books. Uh it's like a little kid, 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:35.400 one of my kids. I love talking about my kids, 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:41.440 and especially that one, because it's really about my chosen home. 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:43.200 I chose to live in the West. I chose to 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.560 live in New Mexico, and I wrote that book to 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:50.640 try to understand how Santa Fe and New Mexico and 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:55.560 the Southwest got to be what it is and what 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.360 an education it was for me, you know, just to 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.040 to learn all the stuff and to follow. You know. 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.400 It's not a biography of Carson, but it uses this 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:08.800 guy Kick Carson as the kind of connective tissue to 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:11.600 get me through all of this history of of how 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:17.239 the American Western a single generation became, uh became part 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:20.160 of the United States. Um, all the good, the bad, 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:23.280 the ugly, all of it. Dude was like Kick Carson 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.760 was like Forrest gump Man. He was there for everything. 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:31.040 It seems like it's just amazing. Uh. Yeah, we're gonna 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.440 get into that. We're gonna get into bunt your kind 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:38.079 of whole body work. What you're doing now, which I 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.840 gotta tell you a story, Please do well. You've taken 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:45.440 an interest in Captain Cook. Yes, cal and I how 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:49.440 many times did we go past where we're trolling for 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:53.040 Wahu and Hawaii? I mean we must drove past where 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:55.639 he supposed he died ten times? Oh at least yes, 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.720 on the Big Island. We spear fished out in front 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.639 of there out there one time. Oh you did. Yeah, 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.239 they're like right around that corner, supposed Captain Cooke and that, 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:07.720 and that brought us into like speculating, you know, one 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:09.560 of those situations where no one really knows what they're 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:13.200 talking about. We're all talking about what exactly his situation was, 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:17.000 as if you know, the time long long ago when 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.520 the Internet didn't exist, one of those conversations. And then 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:24.280 later we we we all I think, I assume I 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:26.160 know I did. We all went to bed and typed 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:32.560 into Google Captain Cook. A lot of people think maybe 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:38.600 it's Captain Captain Hook the Pirate, or maybe captain you know, 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:43.360 Captain uh Kirk from you know, Star trek Uh. He 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.040 gets mixed up with a lot of other captains, and 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.360 some people think he was fictionalized, you know, there's always 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:52.680 Captain Crunch, you know, but but he was really he's 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:54.520 the guy that cuts the inside your mouth up every 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.920 time you eat his cereal, especially sword cuts in the 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.640 inside of your mouth, especially with the crunch berry. Remember 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.440 conspirators of course, carcinogenic serial for bread for you know, 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:09.160 for kids. Um. Yeah, yeah, I do think that uh 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.040 Cook is one of those legendary mythic guys that a 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:19.120 lot of people confused with, uh caricatures of of him, 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:21.440 like where where's the real you know, you have to 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:23.200 dig through all the layers to get down to the 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:28.520 actual guy who was actually more interesting than all those caricatures, um, 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:32.520 but also very controversial, especially now. I mean, you know, uh, 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.160 a lot of these guys are you know, pettists there there. 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:39.480 The statues are coming down and they're being yanked from 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.560 from the history books, and uh, you know, because they 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.720 are part of an era of colonialism that that is 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:50.000 under you know, under attack right now. Understandably so from 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.359 folks like from Hawaii. Native Hawaiians really hate Cook because 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.320 he's sort of the beginning of the end of of 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.640 that era. Um. Even though he was primarily just an 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.320 expl or he was he was not a he was 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.080 not an occupier, He was not a you know, he 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:09.360 didn't lead an army. He was genuinely a great navigator 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.560 and explorer. But he was the beginning. He was the 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:17.640 beginning of modernity coming to their shores and changing everything, 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:19.320 and you kind of pay the price for it in 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.640 his own day. Well, that's what a large part of 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:24.840 the book is going to be about, is all the 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.760 events that lead up to that. You know, he's murdered 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.760 and uh he you know a lot of people say 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.880 he deserved it karmically or something like that. How many 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:36.800 how many encounters with how many Polynesian people did he 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:42.920 have before finally you know, violence escalated. There's a lot 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.320 of misques, miss signals, and uh you know, a hatchet 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.200 ended up between his shoulder blades, a hatchet that he 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.320 had given them. Uh So note to self, don't give 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.120 people a hatchet, uh that if you don't know them 0:05:56.120 --> 0:06:00.240 really well, Um, because it might he might I get 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:02.160 returned to You might get returned in in a way 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.680 you don't like. Okay, we're gonna get into uh getting 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.480 all that stuff and the other books as well, um, 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:11.520 including ah Arctic Exploration, smart things. We gotta cover off 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:12.920 on a couple of things. You know what I'm just saying. 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.920 You don't talking about like taking statues down. Listen, man, 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:17.800 I'm telling you what I had a like a prophecy 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:21.920 the other day. If any of us gets a statue 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:27.640 erected about them, okay, in a hundred years, they will 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.880 rip that some bit down. It'll be like they were 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:37.119 flying in airplanes, they were burning fossil fuels. They knew 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:39.359 what they were doing. And people would be like, but 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.240 everybody was burning fossil fuels back then, and they'd be like, 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.719 they all knew. And they will tear your statue down 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.560 and throw in the ocean. And everything you've done that 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:50.520 you think is great, and everything you've done it you 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:53.080 think is good and worthwhile, no one will care about. 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:57.479 They'll they'll reduce you to that one singular fact that 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:01.680 you contributed to the destruction of the planet or yeah, 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.240 and I don't care how nice you were, what kind 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.520 of dad you were, the way in which you knew 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.640 that it was wrong, But that's what you will become. 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:13.040 That supersedes everything else. That's what you'll become. And they 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.040 will tear it down and people be like, maybe should 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:18.840 put into a museum. Think of what your statue in 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:23.440 an ocean can contribute, Like that's that's some habitat right there. 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:25.040 That's good. You should have a statue with a lot 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:28.280 of fish size holes in it. Yeah, exactly, throwing off 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:31.560 in there. Maybe put a bunch of coral polyps on there, 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.080 and you know, dude, my statue is already doomed. Uh 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:37.160 real quick, Oh brody, we gotta talk about youth deer opener. 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.560 Montana has every like every state does. Now it's it's 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:42.040 the I think it's the greatest thing in the world. 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:46.960 Our state has a youth Dear Season. Yeah, special opener 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.520 before the real opener. I if I didn't have kids, 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.520 I would be against youth Dear Season. Oh I thought 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:55.880 you were going to say you'd go find a kid 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:58.520 to go hunt with. No, I would have been like 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.560 like yeah, like you know most people on Earth. Like 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:03.920 when I was in eighth or ninth grade, I had L. 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:07.640 De Young Civics class, and L. De Young taught civics 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:09.920 through the lens of them. He role played. We didn't 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:11.640 know he's role playing, but now looking back, he was 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.600 clearly joking, but he taught civics as them. He would 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.760 go like, I am concerned only with what effects al 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:21.160 de Young and he would like teach civics through the 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:24.280 lens of an extremely selfish person like he would. He 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:26.840 would be like, I don't I hope that you people 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.080 in this room never registered to vote, because why would 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:31.520 I dilute my vote? Yeah, so if you're if you're 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:35.199 not a parent, you'd be like, yeah, so I would have. 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:37.440 If I didn't have kids, I would be like, anti 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.760 youth season. I bet Cal's anti youth season? Are you cal? Oh? 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.240 All the ship I paid for your kids? Like the 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.240 taxes and Gallatin Valley? My god, I mean, did they 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.719 just suck up by going to that free school? Every 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:53.120 person in his valley should stop me and say, hey, 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:57.079 thank you so much for not breeding but paying for 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:03.360 my offspring. So the sentiments like that, Uh, my god? 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.120 Do I like youth deer season? So what happened with 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:11.160 youth dear season? Um? It's this beautiful little system where 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:14.040 like normally kids gonna take hunter safety in their twelve. 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:16.240 Like when I was a kid, you could start bow 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:18.360 hunting at twelve, you couldn't rifle hunt to your fourteen. 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.000 You can take a hunter safety at twelve. What this 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:22.480 does is there's a system by which if you're like, 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:24.520 how do they describe you? Gotta be like within arms 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:27.840 each of them. Yeah, there, there's wording in there. You 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:34.439 can't just wander out. No, you're there. Yeah, you're their mentor. Um. 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.720 They can get a regular deer license, they have to 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.280 be with their mentor. It can be a parent, but 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:43.680 a parent can also appoint a mentor who has to 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:50.520 be I'm not sure if it's eighteen licensed, legal standing 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.520 all that, and then the kid can hunt and it's 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.160 a two days it's two days season, yeah, without taking 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.760 Also they can do it for two years and that's 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:04.240 not as kids, that's anyone right. Yeah, I'm staring at 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:09.640 my hunters, my Montana Hunters ed certification right now. October 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:15.480 four is when I went went through the program here 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:21.480 in the state six uh and Brodie's boy got his 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.760 first deer. He said, he almost teared up. How do 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.000 you know when you're almost tearing up? I felt it coming, 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.040 I felt it come. Did you choke it back? I 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:31.760 choked it back? Really didn't want to come. Yeah. It 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:34.160 was emotional though, man, it was you know, because we 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.280 put our time in on that. It's a short season, 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:38.920 but we did a day of scouting, day of hunting, 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:41.719 day a hunting and killed one, you know, mid day, 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:45.160 second day, when we thought it was all over, and 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:47.840 my boy spotted the deer when I when I thought 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:50.600 it was all over, Buck gave us a slip and 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.160 then we slipped in on him. So it was fun. Yeah. 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:55.439 And what what was the scene? You're driving down the 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:59.480 road talking on your phone and your kids. No, man, 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:03.319 we're high around in some public land that's only accessible 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:07.040 by you know, hiking or boat or however you want 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:11.240 to get in there, but you can't drive in there. Um. Yeah, 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:12.800 it was. It was a great. We had this a 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:14.960 little camp set up. Yeah. I had my daughter who's 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:18.280 not old enough. She was there. It's great. Man. She's 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:22.360 a hiker, Yeah, she's a hike machine. Yeah. She into 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:26.400 the hiking part of the adventure. That's what she likes most, 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:29.600 but not real what was her connection to the hunting part. 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.880 She kind of. Um, she very much likes to go, 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:36.800 likes the hike around, but isn't that concerned with what 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:44.760 we're doing. Uh, he's only there. He's there for the shooting. 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.480 Single minded. Yeah, he's there for the shooting. He's there 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.520 to be succes. He's there for the success. Like he's there, 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:54.720 he's enduring everything that leads up to the successful part. 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:56.680 If he didn't enjoy it as much as he did, 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:00.400 I just call him a trigger man. He's he's tournament. 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:04.079 He's like there to be successful. He wants that that 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:06.800 he's happy to skip ahead to that moment. My daughter, 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.440 on the other hand, is there for the experience, to 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:12.480 the point where we could be out of halibut fishing 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.839 um and be really like fighting a halibit getting the 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:19.360 harpoon ready, you know, And I'll look and she's looking 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:25.280 off the other direction and isn't totally aware that we're 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.760 in the middle of catching one. You know, my boy, 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.000 But give me the rod. Give me the rod, just 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.559 like did way different. She loves it though she's taking 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.240 hike and machine. She picked up a bunch of andlers. Yeah, 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.559 she had seven sheds. She found hike and fool man. 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.400 She loves big old blisters on the back of her 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:45.400 feet from her brother's boots. Are they all interested in 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:49.800 uh cutting it open? And that? Oh yeah, yeah, that's 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.720 actually you know. After my boy shot at his buck, 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.240 he was he said to me, I feel happy and 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.560 sad at the same time. I don't know what to do. 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:00.680 But then once like that stuff all kinds goes away 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:05.080 when he doesn't mind. Yeah, but once the butcher and starts, 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:09.320 he's like he's like, okay, now, yeah, my daughter likes 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:14.200 to do the looks, cut the stomach open. But I 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:16.040 told her, you know that's interesting on fish, but I 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:20.080 dear it's like it's just grass. Yeah, but maybe she 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.480 wants to look around knock yourself out. But I'm like, 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.120 you're not gonna find like a duck in air or something, 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.559 just like well, she yeah, you know, she likes to 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:33.400 cutting up. She likes all that. Oh she's great man um, 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.800 and she's excited to turn but she's got another two 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.440 years because she can't do it till she's ten. No, 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:44.040 she's gonna be listen with her hiking and endurance. Um, 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.800 she could turn into just a stone cold killer. Because 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:52.520 that's the hard part, you know, that's the hard part. Uh. Oh, 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:55.720 this is interesting, you know, Like here's a pee Like 0:13:55.840 --> 0:14:01.239 I hesitate to even do Pete news because Peter makes news. 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:05.360 Their formula, like People for Ethical Treatment of Animals, Like 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.920 their formula is to do something that the coverage will 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:12.800 wind up being like what will they do next? It's 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:16.760 like a it's like a pr formula. You do something 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:20.320 so kind of like what huh, that it gets media attention, 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:24.120 and then here we are talking about it. We're getting 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:29.320 bated in by their like what come again? So the 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.520 new thing is special occasion though we're in the middle 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:35.560 of the World Series. Yeah, and we have a good 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:37.920 friend who's in MLB, not in the you know, much 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.000 to his chagrin, not in the participating in the World 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:43.000 Series right now. But so Pete's new thing. They're like, hey, 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.240 why everybody's thinking about the World Series. Here's something to 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:52.360 try on. They believe that there's time to retire the world. 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:58.640 The word bullpen because makes you think of a bull 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.840 all penned up. I thought of the fact if I 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:05.160 was if I was in charge of Peter and someone's like, hey, man, 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:10.000 what should be our grape of baseball? I would probably 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:14.000 be like, while the gloves are made of leather, the 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.880 balls made of leather. Everybody's shoes are made of leather. 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:21.840 Let's go after the leather. Those guys probably consume a 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.200 lot of protein. But no that like, I got it, man, 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:28.200 We're gonna hit him where it counts. In use of 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:34.920 the term bullpen, uh, Pete Alonso mets first basement and 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.120 Uh two times. He's the only guy he's been on 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:38.960 the show. He's been the only guy to hit to 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:43.760 win the old UH home run Derby twice. He says 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:47.280 he likes to call it the bullpen um. Well, first, 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:49.080 let me tell you what Peter says about it. There's 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.480 he's confusing because we've got Pete and Peter, so you 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:53.320 gotta he was gonna say. This would have been a 0:15:53.320 --> 0:16:01.840 good Halloween costume idea. Peter Alonzo, you don't even this guy. Listen, 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:09.080 this guy is very good at sub sentence ship, dumb 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.960 word plays, and dumb word plays. So you can like 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:14.000 a baseball player wearing like birken stocks. You got like 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:17.880 a hemp, like a purse or something. I got a baseball. 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.560 That dude feels so good at ship like that. Peter 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:25.480 says that words matter, and baseball bullpens de value. They're 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.520 kind of playing. They're playing to the strength of the 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:33.200 ball players. To begin again, quote words matter, and baseball 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:37.880 bullpens d value talented players and mock the misery of 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:45.120 sensitive animals. Peter encourages major League Baseball coaches, announcers, players 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:49.240 and fans to change up their language and embrace the 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:57.240 term arm barn instead, which seems kind of a bunch 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:01.240 of severed arms in a bar like like it's disturbing him. 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.920 And here's what petalso says. He says they should keep 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.840 calling it the bullpen. How I see, it's when a 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:13.360 new guy comes in. He's fresh meat anyways, he's there 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.680 to smash that pictures earned run average, and that's how 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:18.760 he views him as fresh meat. So he likes calling 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:27.000 the bullpen. Moving on, that's a cal term. Oh, Kriant, 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.400 tell us about your all your wild and all your 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:31.880 wild food adventures. When you went to Ruby, Yeah, did 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:36.960 you guys sing that song? A lot na? Didn't? But 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:41.560 take it a waste, that's about all. Uh. Yeah, I 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.720 went to Aruba for a for a vacation, but then 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.280 kind of did it a little bit the meat either way. 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.400 Went fishing, and there are quite a number of things 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.120 that I learned about um. On one of the days 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:57.879 that I went fishing, caught a couple of different species, 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:02.320 but one was a pretty small parrot fish. And when 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:07.359 it came uh, when we reeled it in the the 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.680 guide said that it was a protected species, and so 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:16.520 we returned it and an opportunistic seagull. God those he 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:21.600 was God, they were just that that poor little fish 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:23.679 just could not get down fast enough. Did you get 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:27.000 the feeling that the seagull was like on your situation, 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:29.840 Like he's like, these people will produce food if I stayed, 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.880 if I fly around here. There were times where there 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:37.639 were no birds around the boat, and then all of 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.440 a sudden, they're going to be like a flock hanging out. 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:44.520 And we tried to put the fish return it to 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:48.200 a spot where yeah, exactly, we tried to do it surreptitiously, 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.719 but this one was just just went in there and 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:56.480 grabbed it. Um. But you know, we we we hope 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.760 to get it back into the water safely. But um, anyway, 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:03.439 so you killed a lot of fish. We killed a 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.640 couple and killed a couple of fish. Um. But I 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.679 was looking at it's its mouth and it is like 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.760 a little it's like a it's like someone who just 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.560 had their braces taken off, and it's got like really straight, 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:22.280 a really straight top and bottom row of these just yeah, 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:24.480 they're not like little sharp teeth. It's just kind of 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:35.359 like a retainer. Um. Thankfully I did not experience that. Um. 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:38.200 But I would imagine because they use that little beak 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:43.320 type mouth teeth situation too. They eat algae, and they 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:47.000 eat algae off rocks and coral. Uh, and then they 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:52.880 poop out sand and you'll just see it coming off them. 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:55.960 So they make their peaches. Yeah, yeah, so I I 0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:01.359 found that fascinating. Um. When h Kimmy Warner, we're we're 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:05.239 spear fishing for parrot fish, Kenny Warrener. One of her 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:09.280 strategies is when she dives down, she takes a rock 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:15.879 and scrapes the rock on the coral to mimic the 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.679 sound of feeding parrot fish. So she goes down and 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:22.600 she's like and does it that like the rhythm they 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:24.600 use when they're doing that to to try to like 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:28.119 replicate the sound of a feeding one. You had to 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:32.520 put them to put him at ease. How clever. She'll 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:34.560 take two rocks and put them in her hands and 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.520 just rub them together like that. Did you eat them 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:40.200 when you got? Oh? Yeah, they're very popular. Like they're 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.680 like they're like a high grade fish in Hawaii, and 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:46.080 often they're protected and people say they're protected because they 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:50.840 make sand, but they're protected because they're like they're they're 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:56.679 a favorite of the scuba diving world. Yes, big, bright, 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:00.480 beautiful at times, pretty easy to kill. And so it's 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:02.439 one of those ones that in some areas it's just 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:06.280 even like in places where it's like in Mexico you can, 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:07.720 but it was explained to me in a lot of 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:09.600 areas it's like, hey, you can, but we kind of 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:14.919 don't because they're so popular with divers, these big blue, 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:18.480 crazy as fish, you know, and people like you can 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:20.480 shoot them. They're good to eat, but we generally don't 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:24.440 because they're they hold a lot of value as a 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:26.679 as a fish to behold, you know. And they do 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:30.960 have like that sexual transition to right, so they're all 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:36.520 female and then hermaphrod did it and switch over to male. 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:39.359 And there's a worry of like the harvest, how the 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:46.040 harvest is going to impact that dynamic for reading, which 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:50.000 is another argument, Like in these places where it is 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:53.360 a really good food fish, I mean we ate several 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:59.520 really um and uh and and then you have a 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:01.639 lot of us right land of any uses type of 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:05.560 situation where you got divers and fisher mountain and people 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:08.080 that just want to eat. And then there her when 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:11.040 they they're hermaphrodites, and when they turned their their coloration. 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:13.240 I can't remember what way it goes. Can you explained it? 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:17.679 I think the blues are the males. Does that happen 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:19.560 at a certain stage because the one I caught was 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:22.240 pretty small like the big dogs? Or when they turned 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.320 to a female or is it their way around to 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:29.880 look at that Catl's gonna look it up on the internet. Yeah. 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:33.080 I did get a really good opportunity to. We were 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.840 talking dinosaurs with my buddy's kid the other day and 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:43.360 he was explaining me how the females t rexes are 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:48.320 always smaller than the male t rexes. I said, you know, 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:55.840 it's called sexual dimorphism, and he was like, anyway, t 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:59.480 rex Oh man, do we gotta you should bring that 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:01.879 kid down. We got a guy coming up that kid 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:05.760 would be extremely I don't want to say, who bring 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:07.880 that kid down? At him sitting the lazy boy back there, 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:14.920 I'll let his dad. No, he is like probably in 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:21.400 between your two oldest boys. Mhmm, yeah, he takes uh. Well, 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:23.159 he's looking it up and talk about the little the 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:26.520 little going ads you were eating. Oh yeah. Um. So 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:29.720 the other thing I did was I the first day 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:34.199 uh of snorkeling. I spotted a number of sea urchin around, 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:37.000 so then before I wanted to make sure that I 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:41.560 was allowed to attempt to harvest one or two. Found 0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:44.720 out that it was not an issue, and um, I 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:48.040 harvested one white sea urchin and one black sea arch 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:50.280 and I was told that the white ones you could 0:23:50.320 --> 0:23:54.760 pick up without being stung. But I was kind of 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.600 just very nervous about I was out there by myself, 0:23:57.680 --> 0:24:01.199 so I didn't want to miss step. So I was like, 0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:05.720 I used my scuba fin and I used like a 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:08.680 mesh bag to try to figure out how to get 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:12.119 it without really touching it. So that was successful for 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:17.200 these two critters, and I was very excited to try 0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:21.800 to replicate like a great restaurant experience with these like 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:26.560 plump you know, pieces of ny. Unfortunately that was not 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:32.880 what happened. Um, boney is going ad. So the row well, 0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:37.040 I'm no, it's a going add. It is a gonad 0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:41.000 well going adds not a row like going add. How's 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:44.639 that not a testicle? You know about this handine, you 0:24:44.800 --> 0:24:50.359 write a book, I do not stuff. We're getting pretty deep. 0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:56.200 So okay, this is from Science Daily. The general gland 0:24:56.240 --> 0:24:58.159 of a sea arch in. The so called gonad is 0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:02.600 found inside the urchin. The organ stores nutrients and contains 0:25:02.760 --> 0:25:07.000 milt and row during the spawning season, and you can 0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:11.560 eat both males and females um. And I, you know, 0:25:11.640 --> 0:25:15.320 I didn't know what season we were in for spawning 0:25:15.400 --> 0:25:17.840 and not. And I know that there are a couple 0:25:17.880 --> 0:25:19.760 of After reading, I found out there are a couple 0:25:19.760 --> 0:25:28.800 of factors that would influence how plump the row would be. So, 0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:33.679 uh my, my little urchins had just kind of a 0:25:33.680 --> 0:25:38.240 tiny bit of slime and they're not particularly orange, not 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:45.040 particularly plump. I no, really, I kind of you know, 0:25:45.119 --> 0:25:50.560 I you you there's a lot of gooey guts stuff 0:25:50.680 --> 0:25:53.680 inside the urchin. You kind of wash that out, and 0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:59.680 the gonads are um kind of right at the back 0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:02.680 of the inside of the shell, and you can kind 0:26:02.680 --> 0:26:04.920 of scrape those out with your fingers. It's pretty easy 0:26:04.920 --> 0:26:07.160 to do that. And I just had like a little 0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:13.639 a little yellow film um, not particularly good. So I 0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:18.320 was disappointed, but the experience was was fun anyway, and 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:21.440 just kind of cutting them open and seeing their parts 0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:24.719 and and yeah, so you try again next time. You're 0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:27.040 in the right area at the right time. Absolutely, Oh yeah, 0:26:27.480 --> 0:26:29.680 up at our up at my fish check. There's commercial 0:26:29.720 --> 0:26:32.280 guys come through in the winter. Oh really, and they're 0:26:32.320 --> 0:26:35.240 even up even they do. Yeah, they come through every 0:26:35.240 --> 0:26:39.240 winter for the cucumbers and the urchins urge and row. Yeah. Yeah, 0:26:39.280 --> 0:26:43.200 I would try again any day. I love finding things 0:26:43.240 --> 0:26:46.359 like that. How's it come col Should we just move on? 0:26:46.359 --> 0:26:50.160 Are you gonna report? Oh, I'm I'm gonna report. So yeah, 0:26:50.160 --> 0:26:55.320 blue blues are mail. According there's there's all sorts of 0:26:55.359 --> 0:26:58.000 parrot fish, as you know, but the ones that we 0:26:58.000 --> 0:27:03.560 were hunting specifically, UM, Hawaii considers them the blues male, 0:27:04.800 --> 0:27:10.480 and the males kind of tend to a harem of females. 0:27:11.480 --> 0:27:16.120 And when the big blue male is shot, as per 0:27:16.119 --> 0:27:23.240 our discussion, uh, the alpha female then transitions to a 0:27:23.320 --> 0:27:28.520 mail that is wild. It's I think she's just addressing 0:27:28.560 --> 0:27:33.480 a need huh. Oh man. Yeah, And so he's so interesting. 0:27:33.520 --> 0:27:36.440 You know, when I was diving down California, we talked 0:27:36.440 --> 0:27:40.960 a lot about sheep head down there, and that is 0:27:40.960 --> 0:27:45.240 a species that's like highly targeted for like the restaurant 0:27:45.320 --> 0:27:53.280 aquarium side of things. Um. And the argument down there 0:27:53.440 --> 0:27:56.760 is because they reproduce in the same way a male 0:27:56.880 --> 0:28:02.320 tends an area develops a harem of females or congregates 0:28:02.320 --> 0:28:05.199 a harem of females, and then when the male is 0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:08.800 caught or killed or removed from the scenario, a female 0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:16.240 then transitions to mail. Well, um, that population, they've seen 0:28:16.280 --> 0:28:20.679 it reduce in average size, Like the average size of 0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:24.080 the take is getting smaller and smaller and smaller because 0:28:24.880 --> 0:28:31.680 the um the population is forcing smaller fish to turn mail. 0:28:33.080 --> 0:28:35.520 And I think that's a big part of the argument here, 0:28:35.520 --> 0:28:39.280 because I know on the Big Island of Hawaii you 0:28:39.320 --> 0:28:45.120 can take male parrot fish, but on Maui you are 0:28:45.280 --> 0:28:50.200 not allowed any male parrot fish take. Can't can't kill 0:28:50.240 --> 0:28:54.480 the blue ones because they don't want you prematurely triggering 0:28:54.760 --> 0:28:59.400 younger ones into their sexual transition. I think would be 0:28:59.400 --> 0:29:03.120 the biology cole argument stuff. Speaking of sheep's had fish, 0:29:03.160 --> 0:29:06.080 I just looked up at picture of that that is gnarly. 0:29:06.200 --> 0:29:11.440 There's a good jillions yeah, good teeth, Oh yeah, the 0:29:11.440 --> 0:29:14.920 one I pulled up has like teeth look human. And 0:29:14.960 --> 0:29:17.520 then it's just like got these rows of flat like 0:29:18.080 --> 0:29:23.680 cut chewing muller looking things. Cal hit us with this 0:29:23.760 --> 0:29:28.840 deal you checked out on this poblo escobar deal. Yeah, Yeah, 0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:32.920 this recent development is new, but I feel very comfortable 0:29:32.960 --> 0:29:34.600 with the folks at the table. We can cover it 0:29:34.680 --> 0:29:42.480 just fine. So, uh, drug kingpan Pablo Escobar got into 0:29:43.000 --> 0:29:49.160 hippos and released hippos. Those hippos make a um in 0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:54.760 um narcos. Oh, they're making appearance. The hippos have like 0:29:54.800 --> 0:29:56.760 a what do you call it, like a cameo nice 0:29:58.320 --> 0:30:02.760 hips in arcs. Yeah, they're big, big stars. Um. So 0:30:05.280 --> 0:30:08.000 there was a point in the world, a point in 0:30:08.040 --> 0:30:11.360 time rather where people have the idea of transporting wildlife 0:30:11.360 --> 0:30:16.280 all over the place. Um. You know, you can probably 0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:19.280 get more eccentric than a big drug kingpin. But they 0:30:19.320 --> 0:30:23.680 do what they want. And and this guy Pablo got 0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:28.000 some hippos in as probably like an oddity. And then 0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:31.800 there was there's all these stories about like also for defense, 0:30:31.880 --> 0:30:35.280 you know, nobody can come in through his hippo defense whatever. 0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:40.360 So um, from an ecological standpoint, we know that they 0:30:40.400 --> 0:30:46.000 are they consume a niche where they're um, they're deforesters. 0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:51.280 They really they're they're huge animal and they reconstruct waterways 0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:53.360 and the world I was surprised to see is the 0:30:53.400 --> 0:30:56.440 world's largest invasive species, which makes sense to me, like 0:30:56.880 --> 0:31:00.680 a couple of thousand pounds. Oh yeah, over two and pounds. 0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:04.280 Yeah and UM, and they're they're very dangerous, they're very 0:31:04.360 --> 0:31:09.160 territorial all the things. UM. Interesting side note this, this 0:31:09.240 --> 0:31:13.320 was actually proposed in the state Louisiana to bring hippos 0:31:13.400 --> 0:31:18.160 in as a possible commercial enterprise UM for meat production, 0:31:18.840 --> 0:31:23.240 for meat production. UM. You can fast forward to see 0:31:23.240 --> 0:31:26.880 how well Louisiana did with neutria. I'm glad, we're probably 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:31.920 glad they started small. Uh. If this works, then we 0:31:31.960 --> 0:31:37.080 go to hippos. Uh. So the interesting thing is, uh, 0:31:37.200 --> 0:31:40.280 somebody here in the US decided to get ahead of 0:31:40.280 --> 0:31:45.920 the hippo curve and have has somehow won some court 0:31:45.960 --> 0:31:52.320 case to bestow upon hippo's um some some human rights. 0:31:54.520 --> 0:31:57.440 And this has absolutely nothing to do with the very 0:31:57.520 --> 0:32:04.000 catchy headline of uh CO cane hippos as they're often called. UM. 0:32:04.040 --> 0:32:08.719 But it is interesting to say, like, here is this 0:32:08.800 --> 0:32:12.520 species that if something were to happen with one in 0:32:12.600 --> 0:32:16.640 the US, it would be protected under an extra level 0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:22.480 of protection, somewhat human, you could say, m hm. And 0:32:22.840 --> 0:32:26.640 but there's it's not doing anything to protect the hippos 0:32:26.720 --> 0:32:32.000 in Colombia because it's an American. Correct. Yeah, yeah, again, 0:32:32.040 --> 0:32:34.640 it's just like borrowing the headline. But you can see 0:32:34.640 --> 0:32:38.760 this as like an animal rights type of wind and um, 0:32:39.480 --> 0:32:42.600 depending on on if you want to take sides. I 0:32:42.640 --> 0:32:45.960 hate saying that we have to take sides, but it's like, 0:32:46.280 --> 0:32:49.680 is this a wind for animals or is it I'm 0:32:49.800 --> 0:32:52.680 leaning more towards the barn arm thing with this one. 0:32:53.000 --> 0:32:56.240 No man to see home this dude real quick. This 0:32:56.360 --> 0:33:01.560 dude is they're talking about cooling the hippos in Colombia. 0:33:01.600 --> 0:33:06.200 In Colombia. Yes, so some dude inspired by that threat 0:33:07.880 --> 0:33:09.600 try to make a is trying to make a thing 0:33:09.640 --> 0:33:12.680 in the US. But a legal analyst is saying that 0:33:12.720 --> 0:33:13.920 you can do all you want in the US. It 0:33:14.000 --> 0:33:18.640 has no like enforcement. Correct. So it's like it's just 0:33:18.720 --> 0:33:21.920 doing it for fun. Yes, but then it's like crusading 0:33:21.960 --> 0:33:23.800 against the bullpen. It's like you're just doing You're just 0:33:23.840 --> 0:33:26.719 throwing stuff out there. And then you know, let's say 0:33:26.760 --> 0:33:29.240 we have a situation where all of a sudden, somebody 0:33:29.280 --> 0:33:34.080 managed to get a bunch of Louisiana hippo started way 0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:36.760 off and some parish and then all of a sudden, 0:33:36.840 --> 0:33:38.960 now you have the legal president, you have this legal 0:33:39.280 --> 0:33:42.320 thing hanging out there is like you know, kids in 0:33:42.360 --> 0:33:46.280 their p rogues get sucked under by territorial hippos, right, 0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:49.760 and it's like, well those hippos have rights. Well, now's 0:33:49.760 --> 0:33:51.360 the time to get a hippo thing going down there 0:33:52.280 --> 0:33:55.000 if you worry about their long term deal. Brody real 0:33:55.080 --> 0:34:00.640 quickly dig into this, um, dig into this, this, this, 0:34:00.640 --> 0:34:02.600 this kind of crazy journey by this great wolf, and 0:34:02.600 --> 0:34:04.760 then we're gonna get into our esteemed author here. Sure, 0:34:04.800 --> 0:34:08.040 I feel like these wolf take a long walk stories 0:34:08.080 --> 0:34:12.799 are getting a little passe, But this one, dude, listen man, well, 0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:15.160 I mean, like any story about any animal that goes 0:34:15.200 --> 0:34:20.239 along ways for mysterious reasons, this one's is interesting because 0:34:20.239 --> 0:34:23.040 of where it ended up. UM. A gray wolf named 0:34:23.120 --> 0:34:28.000 O R. Nine from Oregon UH took a one thousand 0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:34.200 mile southward journey from northern Oregon to southern California. Thousand miles. 0:34:34.440 --> 0:34:37.680 It never gets old to me, crossed UH two major 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:42.320 highways and the five um southernmost sighting of the species 0:34:42.320 --> 0:34:45.759 in the Golden State and nearly a century. And as 0:34:45.800 --> 0:34:48.560 it's typical, it's a two year old male that broke 0:34:48.600 --> 0:34:51.759 off of its wolf river pack and decided to go 0:34:51.840 --> 0:34:55.920 for a long walk, covering sixteen miles a day before 0:34:55.920 --> 0:34:58.960 his collar failed. You know what, but I'll just call 0:34:59.000 --> 0:35:00.920 it when I got something with a collar, they call 0:35:00.960 --> 0:35:04.799 it keeping it on air. But we kept that thing 0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:08.840 on air five years. Like that traveled through sixteen counties. 0:35:09.880 --> 0:35:12.600 There's a great quote in the end where he uh, 0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:15.160 now they're warning if the wolf is in Ventura County 0:35:15.239 --> 0:35:19.319 right yep, yea near Santa Barbara. There's a quote where 0:35:19.360 --> 0:35:23.759 is that. Oh, there's a quote from a guy who says, Um, 0:35:23.800 --> 0:35:26.600 it's very rural. It's not like he's at the beach 0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:29.080 with a whole bunch of people or anything like that. 0:35:29.320 --> 0:35:32.840 Stealing potato chips from someone's like towel off the beach. 0:35:33.640 --> 0:35:37.759 That's from Uh, that's what a from a spokesperson from 0:35:37.800 --> 0:35:42.000 California Department of Fishing Game. Um, that was his quote. 0:35:42.000 --> 0:35:43.600 It's not like he's at the beach with a whole 0:35:43.600 --> 0:35:45.560 bunch of people or anything like that. But when I 0:35:45.600 --> 0:35:47.680 read this one, you know how, there's a certain, uh, 0:35:47.840 --> 0:35:52.440 certain segment of people who are both anti wolf and 0:35:52.480 --> 0:35:56.040 anti uh left wing city people. They're like, well, we 0:35:56.080 --> 0:36:00.279 should turn those wolves loosen. Boulder, Colorado, list. It's just 0:36:00.520 --> 0:36:04.439 you know he's there. You got your dream though. Yeah. Wait, 0:36:04.640 --> 0:36:08.480 there's a wolf in Santa Barbro. Yeah I might be 0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:13.440 there now. Just speaking with a family that runs a 0:36:13.560 --> 0:36:19.040 mix like goat sheep operation to knock down um you know, 0:36:19.120 --> 0:36:24.360 like nasty They do like thinning operations around California primarily 0:36:24.440 --> 0:36:28.320 to um get rid of fuel build up, fire fuel 0:36:28.320 --> 0:36:31.319 build up and some noxious weed control and stuff. But 0:36:31.400 --> 0:36:34.080 so they run a ton of a ton of boor 0:36:34.200 --> 0:36:37.160 goats and a and a ton of a type of 0:36:37.160 --> 0:36:41.120 hair sheep that I can't remember what it is. But um, 0:36:41.320 --> 0:36:44.200 we're talking about um predators in the way of the 0:36:44.320 --> 0:36:48.319 state of California runs their their predator stuff and and 0:36:48.400 --> 0:36:53.399 according to these folks at Start Creek Land Stewards, UM, 0:36:53.440 --> 0:36:56.880 they do participate on like a wolf board in the 0:36:56.920 --> 0:37:01.320 state of California. Um it's to talk about like how 0:37:01.520 --> 0:37:03.759 we are going to manage wolves, Like, so California is 0:37:03.800 --> 0:37:05.920 like being progressive and in the fact that they are 0:37:06.000 --> 0:37:10.560 going to have wolves in their near future, well they 0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:15.120 have an established pack, they're already Yeah. Yeah, what did 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:17.560 they do with this wolf? Did they? Did they know? 0:37:18.080 --> 0:37:20.600 I think he's good to go wherever he wants as 0:37:20.680 --> 0:37:23.319 long as he doesn't get in trouble killing a cow 0:37:23.440 --> 0:37:26.440 or something. I would assume in this guy, he was 0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:30.319 he made a bunch of headlines last year. But then 0:37:30.400 --> 0:37:33.319 when like off radar, right, yeah, yeah, they lost to 0:37:33.360 --> 0:37:37.400 signal and he just turned up. Um, he's probably a 0:37:37.480 --> 0:37:40.399 dead end. I mean unless he he either comes back, 0:37:40.840 --> 0:37:42.520 he's probably a dead end. He's got to run into 0:37:42.520 --> 0:37:45.279 a female. That's the weird thing about when when when 0:37:45.320 --> 0:37:48.440 you see these large predators that take off, you know, 0:37:48.440 --> 0:37:52.319 it's it's so often like juvenile man, and so I 0:37:52.360 --> 0:37:54.239 see what they're going for. He's like, you know, he's 0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:56.960 gonna find like the shangri La. But you would have 0:37:57.000 --> 0:37:59.960 going is you're like a you're like a um genetic 0:38:00.040 --> 0:38:02.279 that end, Yeah, because you're just not gonna turn up. 0:38:02.400 --> 0:38:04.279 What he's doing makes sense. He's just not going to 0:38:04.360 --> 0:38:07.720 find what he's looking for. The shangral on this situation 0:38:07.800 --> 0:38:12.440 would be unattended. Females, yeah, ladies and no competition. But 0:38:12.520 --> 0:38:14.239 cal going back to what you were saying, like, I 0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:16.839 don't I don't ever see California getting to the point 0:38:16.880 --> 0:38:20.799 where Montana, Wyoming, Idaho is with wolves Like no matter 0:38:20.840 --> 0:38:22.799 how many they have no, they'll never cut a wolf 0:38:22.840 --> 0:38:25.680 season in California. Holy ship, man, people have a heart attack. 0:38:26.080 --> 0:38:30.799 Oh yeah, man, can you imagine? But you know California 0:38:30.840 --> 0:38:35.320 does a lot of culling of predators because they big 0:38:35.440 --> 0:38:38.400 private landowners, because they don't have enough bear hunters or 0:38:38.440 --> 0:38:41.520 lots of agriculture get it done. Yeah, they yeah, they 0:38:41.560 --> 0:38:43.680 like to. They like to let the government do it, 0:38:43.800 --> 0:38:58.719 not not paying Sportsman's Hampton. Remind anybody what your books are. 0:38:59.480 --> 0:39:02.160 I got him here. If you can't remember, well I 0:39:02.200 --> 0:39:04.759 can remember them, um, although I wish, you know, they 0:39:04.800 --> 0:39:06.480 take me a long time to do. It take me 0:39:06.560 --> 0:39:09.840 like five years to actually get them done. So they're 0:39:09.880 --> 0:39:12.719 not as many as I would like, um, but they 0:39:12.760 --> 0:39:16.160 all count. So Ghost Soldiers, which is about the Baton 0:39:16.239 --> 0:39:18.920 Death March in World War Two and the Philippines and 0:39:19.760 --> 0:39:23.120 the prison war camps there um and a rescue that 0:39:23.160 --> 0:39:27.799 took place late in the war to rescue the last 0:39:27.800 --> 0:39:30.839 survivors of the death March. Um. That was my first book, 0:39:30.880 --> 0:39:36.000 my first history, and uh um moved on from there 0:39:36.040 --> 0:39:39.560 to Blood and Thunder, which you mentioned we mentioned earlier, 0:39:39.719 --> 0:39:42.640 which is about the opening of the American West in 0:39:42.680 --> 0:39:46.080 the eighteen forties. Fifties and sixties. Uh, and sort of 0:39:46.080 --> 0:39:50.160 follows loosely the the life of Kit Carson, this controversial 0:39:50.200 --> 0:39:52.520 frontiersman who did a little bit of everything and was 0:39:52.600 --> 0:39:54.680 kind of like, as you say that, kind of a 0:39:54.719 --> 0:39:58.200 Forrest Gump of the American West, um pinged and pond 0:39:58.239 --> 0:40:03.400 off of every every historical event and um was everywhere 0:40:03.480 --> 0:40:11.120 and mountain man, check, cattleman, check, rancher in general, scout courier, 0:40:11.360 --> 0:40:15.920 indian agent check. Uh And and of course in his 0:40:16.000 --> 0:40:21.040 last kind of act of his career, he uh did 0:40:21.239 --> 0:40:25.720 the roundup and the of the Novajo people that the Denay, 0:40:26.000 --> 0:40:29.560 and uh that's what he's known for now, um, not 0:40:29.840 --> 0:40:33.200 all those other things that he did. But after that, 0:40:33.320 --> 0:40:38.400 I wrote a book called um Hellhound on his Trail, 0:40:38.520 --> 0:40:44.360 which is about the assassination of Martin Luther King in Memphis, 0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:46.600 which is where I grew up, born and raised in Memphis, 0:40:46.600 --> 0:40:49.640 and always kind of wanted to deconstruct and try to 0:40:49.719 --> 0:40:54.560 understand this seismic event in my city's history. And uh, 0:40:54.719 --> 0:40:57.520 I decided that James Earl Ray was in fact the killer, 0:40:57.760 --> 0:41:01.239 and it ends up being a psychological file of of 0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:04.880 him and how the FBI finally caught him, um after 0:41:04.880 --> 0:41:07.239 one of the largest man hunts in American history where 0:41:08.440 --> 0:41:11.440 he's from southern Illinois. He was kind of a redneck, 0:41:11.960 --> 0:41:16.680 came from came from just terrible, terrible poverty. Um lots 0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:18.960 of I mean, I don't know how much time we 0:41:19.000 --> 0:41:20.960 have to go into him, but he he was a 0:41:20.960 --> 0:41:23.600 piece of work, a real piece of work. Uh. And 0:41:23.920 --> 0:41:26.960 the book follows him in the months just prior to 0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:29.920 the assassination. He begins to kind of stalk King and 0:41:29.920 --> 0:41:33.279 he moves to Atlanta, and he uh is trying to 0:41:33.320 --> 0:41:36.400 find his moment where he can he buy his rifle, 0:41:36.560 --> 0:41:40.520 He buys scope, buys the ammunition, buy but you know, 0:41:40.600 --> 0:41:45.560 buys a binoculars uh and and literally stalks him, you know, 0:41:45.800 --> 0:41:50.040 hunts m um. Uh. So after that book, Uh, that's 0:41:50.040 --> 0:41:54.200 when I moved to this Arctic story. It's called in 0:41:54.239 --> 0:41:59.200 the Kingdom of Ice, and it's about the first American, 0:41:59.280 --> 0:42:04.200 the first official American attempt on the North Pole. Uh. 0:42:04.480 --> 0:42:07.839 It's a story that almost no one's heard of. Uh. 0:42:08.040 --> 0:42:12.759 The U S S. Jannette, which happened in eighteen seventy nine. 0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:18.040 Eight Uh one. They went up through the Bearing straight 0:42:18.600 --> 0:42:21.560 uh of Alaska, and I got stuck in the ice, 0:42:22.640 --> 0:42:25.319 drifted in the ice for two years until the ship 0:42:25.440 --> 0:42:29.120 was crushed by the by the ice pack. And these 0:42:29.160 --> 0:42:33.000 men thirty three men and forty dogs and three small 0:42:33.040 --> 0:42:36.560 boats out on the ice pack, a thousand miles from 0:42:36.560 --> 0:42:40.960 the nearest land mass, which is the central coast of Siberia. 0:42:41.080 --> 0:42:43.120 And it's it's really a story about how they made 0:42:43.120 --> 0:42:46.520 it home. Some made it home, some didn't. But it's 0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:51.040 almost half through, so okay, I won't tell you killing 0:42:51.400 --> 0:42:54.440 no spoiler alert, except that you know, I think you 0:42:54.440 --> 0:42:56.360 can tell that it's not gonna go well for everyone, 0:42:57.080 --> 0:43:03.440 including the dogs. Almost the dog, sorry Peter, Peter probably won't. 0:43:03.600 --> 0:43:06.120 You know, it doesn't like my book that they won't 0:43:06.120 --> 0:43:07.440 have a problem with the I have a problem with 0:43:07.440 --> 0:43:10.680 those people. Oh yeah, yeah that that. That's one of 0:43:10.719 --> 0:43:16.759 the what I'm appreciating the most is just how I 0:43:16.800 --> 0:43:22.520 haven't heard any any of this, and um, how how 0:43:22.680 --> 0:43:28.240 much of a story it was in its day and 0:43:28.320 --> 0:43:32.600 not have not even a anything. That's why I wrote it. 0:43:32.719 --> 0:43:34.280 That's why I wrote it. I was like, why haven't 0:43:34.280 --> 0:43:36.560 I heard of this? Why haven't we all heard this? 0:43:36.560 --> 0:43:39.600 This is the American Shackleton story. You know, It's like greatest, 0:43:39.600 --> 0:43:42.680 one of the greatest survival stories of all time, I 0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:45.799 truly believe. And yet um, I had never heard of 0:43:45.800 --> 0:43:49.080 it until I, you know, just kind of found out 0:43:49.120 --> 0:43:52.080 about it by chance. Um. And it was in its 0:43:52.160 --> 0:43:55.440 day the story that everybody knew these guys. Everybody followed 0:43:55.480 --> 0:43:57.080 their fate and wanted to know what was going to 0:43:57.160 --> 0:43:59.200 happen to them, and uh, you know, it was like 0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:03.160 we had sent men to the moon uh uh and 0:44:03.800 --> 0:44:05.839 or the dark side of the moon really because they 0:44:05.880 --> 0:44:09.279 were gone for three years and no news from these 0:44:09.280 --> 0:44:12.440 guys come man. Um. So it's a you know, it's 0:44:12.480 --> 0:44:15.840 a it's a classic uh survival story, a little bit 0:44:15.840 --> 0:44:19.640 of scurvy, you know, a little bit of cannibalism. Okay, 0:44:19.640 --> 0:44:23.160 Now there's not actually cannibalism, um, but it seems like 0:44:23.160 --> 0:44:26.399 these Arctic stories always have that kind of that kind 0:44:26.400 --> 0:44:31.000 of ethos. So there's cannibalism, scurvy, Oh, mutiny, that's the 0:44:31.000 --> 0:44:35.920 other one. Good times um uh. But also a football 0:44:36.480 --> 0:44:43.480 like it's a very regimented okay, like to keep all active. Yeah, 0:44:43.520 --> 0:44:47.920 the captain's got a very regimented daily routine and and 0:44:47.960 --> 0:44:53.080 the um executive officer and it involves you know, like 0:44:53.280 --> 0:44:57.839 mentally and physically keeping people engaged because it's it's like 0:44:58.080 --> 0:45:01.359 us in this room are in a space not all 0:45:01.400 --> 0:45:06.319 that much bigger than this room for two years. Yeah, 0:45:06.640 --> 0:45:11.879 kel's dogs laying here and we'd probably want up eating it. Uh, 0:45:11.920 --> 0:45:14.760 I mean, how much of the year is darkness? About 0:45:14.760 --> 0:45:18.400 half of it? And and there's this one guy who 0:45:18.480 --> 0:45:22.400 is his name is Collins, and he is a word 0:45:22.400 --> 0:45:26.520 play guy. Um, you know, kind of kind of like you. Uh, 0:45:27.880 --> 0:45:32.480 he's you know, he's a he's a punster and and 0:45:32.760 --> 0:45:35.759 he does limericks and he's this jolly guy that you know, 0:45:35.760 --> 0:45:37.239 you know, we all know people like that, and they're 0:45:37.280 --> 0:45:39.279 wonderful to be with for about you know, an hour. 0:45:40.840 --> 0:45:45.319 I'm sorry, I'm sorry that that checks out. But Phil 0:45:45.360 --> 0:45:48.000 hasn't gone into limericks yet. If he were to go 0:45:48.040 --> 0:45:49.919 into limericks, he might be that would be the job. 0:45:52.360 --> 0:45:54.479 One hour would be enough for most of these guys. 0:45:54.520 --> 0:45:56.400 But they were with this dude for two years and 0:45:56.440 --> 0:45:58.399 they all wanted to wring his neck. I mean, they 0:45:58.480 --> 0:46:03.359 wanted to kill him. They did. Um so yeah, so yeah. 0:46:03.400 --> 0:46:05.719 A lot of the book is of study of of 0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:10.960 how people survive um close proximity and claustrophobia and darkness 0:46:11.080 --> 0:46:14.320 for half the year and arctic conditions. And one of 0:46:14.360 --> 0:46:17.080 the things they do is, apart from playing football out 0:46:17.120 --> 0:46:19.440 on the ice is UM they do a lot of 0:46:19.480 --> 0:46:23.200 hunting UM. And they hunt polar bear and walrus and 0:46:23.239 --> 0:46:26.120 seal UM and they get to be pretty good at it. 0:46:26.160 --> 0:46:27.920 And that's one of the reasons they don't get scurvy, 0:46:28.160 --> 0:46:32.120 as they're constantly eating fresh food UH and and greens 0:46:32.160 --> 0:46:35.960 that they find around the edges of the Arctic. So 0:46:36.239 --> 0:46:38.799 it's a it's you know, it's it's a cooking and 0:46:38.880 --> 0:46:42.520 hunting UH book a lot of ways kind of fits 0:46:42.560 --> 0:46:46.120 in with what you guys talk about UM and UH. 0:46:46.200 --> 0:46:49.520 They finally get to open water after a thousand miles 0:46:49.560 --> 0:46:52.279 on the ice, and they put in their boats and 0:46:52.719 --> 0:46:57.319 they start sailing for Siberia UH. And they encounter a 0:46:57.360 --> 0:47:00.359 gale the next day, a very bad storm, and the 0:47:00.360 --> 0:47:04.319 three boats are scattered from each other, and UH the 0:47:04.360 --> 0:47:07.240 story becomes, you know, really just follows these three boats 0:47:07.280 --> 0:47:11.280 as they make their way towards UH. Uh a river delta, 0:47:11.520 --> 0:47:14.640 the Lana the Lana Delta, which is uh one of 0:47:14.680 --> 0:47:18.160 the hugest deltas on Earth, and it's a labyrinth of 0:47:18.200 --> 0:47:22.840 thousands of islands and you know switchbacks and cold to sacs, 0:47:23.160 --> 0:47:25.920 and it's it's it's where the story, the rest of 0:47:25.960 --> 0:47:27.680 the story takes place. I won't tell you anything like 0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:30.840 a psychological false summit story where like as soon as 0:47:30.880 --> 0:47:34.359 I get on top there like keep keeps going. Yeah, yeah, 0:47:34.440 --> 0:47:37.400 the misery just keeps It's like misery porn, you know, 0:47:37.480 --> 0:47:40.040 it just keeps going. Hey, you know when you're mentioning 0:47:40.040 --> 0:47:41.960 there's certain I don't want to call them tropes, but 0:47:42.040 --> 0:47:44.919 certain things that Arctic exploration stories involved, Like you're always 0:47:44.960 --> 0:47:48.279 like looking ahead of the cannibalism part, the mutiny part. 0:47:48.760 --> 0:47:54.640 There's also um the encounters with Askimo or Intuit hunters 0:47:55.800 --> 0:47:59.120 who and you want it with this like really stark juxtaposition, 0:47:59.160 --> 0:48:03.200 because here's these people who are thriving, they're like raising 0:48:03.280 --> 0:48:06.840 children and they show up and it's often that they 0:48:06.840 --> 0:48:09.040 don't want to get too close. It's kind of like 0:48:09.080 --> 0:48:11.160 what are these people doing here? And you see like 0:48:11.200 --> 0:48:15.600 these two just like vastly different ways that people sort 0:48:15.600 --> 0:48:18.960 of comprehend the Arctic landscape and can live on the 0:48:19.040 --> 0:48:22.320 Arctic landscape. You know, it's like the thing that's killing 0:48:22.440 --> 0:48:26.400 all you people. Meanwhile, there are individuals who are raising 0:48:26.920 --> 0:48:32.080 children here by choice. Yeah. It's like and you kind 0:48:32.080 --> 0:48:33.839 of like because it brings up these all these things 0:48:33.840 --> 0:48:38.480 you're talking about, like resilience and ingenuity, but like that juxtaposition, 0:48:39.000 --> 0:48:43.600 they're raising families here and we're all dying. Yeah. In 0:48:43.640 --> 0:48:46.239 this story, they end up in a place in Siberia 0:48:46.520 --> 0:48:50.560 that I went to. Uh, and the Yakut people are 0:48:50.560 --> 0:48:53.759 still thriving, still living there. Uh And and they play 0:48:53.800 --> 0:48:57.880 a big role and rescuing these guys um and sharing 0:48:57.880 --> 0:49:01.160 what they have. They're great hunters and and they live 0:49:01.160 --> 0:49:05.000 off the land and they understand the nuances of ice 0:49:05.080 --> 0:49:07.719 and window fish and went to hunt and went to 0:49:07.800 --> 0:49:12.200 retreat uh to the south. And you know, Uh, it's 0:49:12.239 --> 0:49:14.759 a fascinating part of the story. Actually there is the 0:49:14.760 --> 0:49:17.280 people who actually live in this place that that seems 0:49:17.280 --> 0:49:20.640 to be killing uh these uh these white dudes, mostly 0:49:20.640 --> 0:49:25.400 white tings. But there are two um Alaska Inuit hunters 0:49:25.480 --> 0:49:28.680 who are part of this expedition from the beginning. And 0:49:28.840 --> 0:49:31.600 uh they play a big role. Uh they're great hunters 0:49:31.640 --> 0:49:34.080 and uh they keep this thing going. They keep these 0:49:34.080 --> 0:49:39.120 men alive. Uh. Their knowledge of of of of of 0:49:39.120 --> 0:49:41.640 how to hunt this kind of landscape, this sort of 0:49:41.680 --> 0:49:46.560 perma frost um landscape, and um, you know they're hunting 0:49:46.560 --> 0:49:50.640 reindeer mainly, but also polar bear and walrus. And I 0:49:50.719 --> 0:49:53.600 was thinking the mental side of things, right, it's like 0:49:53.760 --> 0:49:55.719 they I think they brought on a hundred dogs at 0:49:55.719 --> 0:49:59.680 the very beginning. No, not that many, about fifty that much. 0:49:59.719 --> 0:50:02.920 But um, the dogs are important, and UM, don't worry 0:50:02.920 --> 0:50:06.960 if they don't. They aren't eaten until maybe the very 0:50:07.080 --> 0:50:09.919 very very very bitter end because they're they're working, they're 0:50:10.040 --> 0:50:11.800 part of the team. They are part of the team, 0:50:11.880 --> 0:50:15.719 and they're beloved. And uh, there's one favorite dog named Snoozer. 0:50:17.080 --> 0:50:18.680 Things do not go well for Snoozer and the an 0:50:18.680 --> 0:50:21.680 I'm afraid, but we want Lesten not go there. It's 0:50:21.719 --> 0:50:23.960 too sad. But if you're on that boat too, it's 0:50:24.000 --> 0:50:28.879 like these these two, Oh I ask him, are there 0:50:28.920 --> 0:50:30.640 to take care of the dogs too? And man, if 0:50:30.640 --> 0:50:33.239 you're not a dog person, you have fifty of them 0:50:33.239 --> 0:50:36.120 that you're living with, their piano and pooping on staff. 0:50:37.520 --> 0:50:42.160 Walk everybody through your latest on desperate ground. On desperate 0:50:42.200 --> 0:50:46.120 ground is um a battle story. It's the story of 0:50:46.160 --> 0:50:50.919 the most the most epic Battle of the Korean War, 0:50:51.320 --> 0:50:56.680 and it's it's the Battle of Chosen Reservoir. Um. You know, 0:50:57.080 --> 0:50:59.480 I've I've always kind of been curious about the Korean 0:50:59.480 --> 0:51:02.400 War because, as you know, it's kind of an also 0:51:02.520 --> 0:51:04.799 ran in our in our history, Like we don't talk 0:51:04.840 --> 0:51:08.920 about it that much in school. It's not studied as much. 0:51:08.960 --> 0:51:10.760 Some people don't even think it was a real war 0:51:10.920 --> 0:51:14.279 because it's been called a U. N. Police action, or 0:51:14.320 --> 0:51:19.080 it's been called, you know, perhaps a civil a civil 0:51:19.120 --> 0:51:24.280 war that that the world kind of glommed onto. Um. 0:51:24.360 --> 0:51:27.200 But they killed far far more Americans than the Global 0:51:27.200 --> 0:51:30.839 War on Terror. Have absolutely and more more people uh 0:51:30.880 --> 0:51:35.160 per per year than the Vietnam War. Um. And I 0:51:35.160 --> 0:51:38.280 don't know it was more in a more efficient killer. Yeah, 0:51:38.320 --> 0:51:41.040 and it was. It was it was kind of a 0:51:41.080 --> 0:51:43.439 world war. It was like a world war crammed down 0:51:43.480 --> 0:51:48.360 into this one peninsula, the Chinese, the Russians, uh, and 0:51:48.400 --> 0:51:51.360 the North Koreans versus the U N. Led by of 0:51:51.400 --> 0:51:54.200 course the United States. But uh, it's also I kind 0:51:54.200 --> 0:51:57.359 of wanted to do this because it's sort of my 0:51:57.360 --> 0:52:03.440 my parents war, my parents generation war. Uh, my my 0:52:03.560 --> 0:52:08.880 stepfather fought. They're uh, my father in law had Korean 0:52:08.880 --> 0:52:12.960 War orders and made it as far as Japan. Um. 0:52:13.280 --> 0:52:15.000 So you know, I just kind of want to understand 0:52:15.040 --> 0:52:19.759 what they this was their conflict of and I unfortunately 0:52:19.760 --> 0:52:23.040 was saying goodbye to some of my uh that generation 0:52:23.080 --> 0:52:25.120 a lot of a lot of like I lost my 0:52:25.120 --> 0:52:27.600 stepfather and lost my father in law a couple of 0:52:27.640 --> 0:52:31.160 years ago. So um, that was kind of my personal motivation, 0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:34.520 just want to understand what what was this thing? Um? 0:52:34.560 --> 0:52:37.360 And and you know, I think the Korean War is 0:52:37.360 --> 0:52:40.120 a very tough narrative to get your arms around, so 0:52:40.200 --> 0:52:44.160 I decided to reduce it down to something more understandable, 0:52:44.160 --> 0:52:47.520 which is one battle you know, that has a clear beginning, 0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:51.080 middle end, And the Battle of Chosen Reservoir is that battle. 0:52:51.160 --> 0:52:55.440 It's um, you know, it's it's kind of like a classic. 0:52:55.480 --> 0:52:57.759 It's like something out of through Cydites or you know, 0:52:57.840 --> 0:53:01.000 Herodotus or something. It's like this. You know, this army 0:53:01.040 --> 0:53:04.520 marches up into this wilderness on the shores of a 0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:08.880 frozen lake where they are completely surrounded by tend to 0:53:08.960 --> 0:53:12.520 one by this force that had secretly entered the war. 0:53:12.560 --> 0:53:17.440 I'm talking about the Chinese Red Army, and uh, this 0:53:17.520 --> 0:53:21.400 is the first marine Division of the United States is uh, 0:53:22.360 --> 0:53:25.719 you know, seemingly going to be wiped out, and it's 0:53:25.800 --> 0:53:28.920 it's really how they fought their way out of this 0:53:29.000 --> 0:53:32.760 trap and how they fought their way back to the sea. 0:53:33.600 --> 0:53:35.520 You could say it's a retreat. It's a story about 0:53:35.560 --> 0:53:39.880 a retreat, but the Marines, of course, do not allow 0:53:39.920 --> 0:53:41.480 you to use the word retreat. And there's a lot 0:53:41.520 --> 0:53:46.080 of euphemisms for retreat. Uh, retrograde maneuver is one I 0:53:46.120 --> 0:53:52.279 like another one is advanced to the rear. But uh, 0:53:52.520 --> 0:53:53.839 this is one of the you know, this is a 0:53:53.840 --> 0:53:56.239 fighting withdrawal. This is they fought every step of the 0:53:56.239 --> 0:54:00.279 way to get there, to get out of this call loss. 0:54:00.280 --> 0:54:03.719 Will you know, it's a series of blunders that led 0:54:03.760 --> 0:54:07.759 to this, Uh, mainly by blunders committed by a guy 0:54:07.840 --> 0:54:13.319 named General Douglas MacArthur. You've heard of him, and and uh, 0:54:13.360 --> 0:54:16.120 you know, the Marines just can't stand MacArthur. They just 0:54:16.239 --> 0:54:19.440 to this day they hate him with such a passion. 0:54:19.480 --> 0:54:22.080 But so the first half of the book looks at 0:54:22.080 --> 0:54:24.440 all those blunders and kind of how it all happened 0:54:24.440 --> 0:54:27.359 that they were trapped and how they didn't know how 0:54:27.400 --> 0:54:30.200 could they not know that the three hundred thousand Chinese 0:54:30.239 --> 0:54:35.319 had across the border from North Korea, I mean from Manchuria. Um, 0:54:35.360 --> 0:54:38.120 And how how they got kind of put in this position? 0:54:38.160 --> 0:54:40.200 And then the rest is of the book is about 0:54:40.200 --> 0:54:44.520 how they how they fought their way out. Uh. How 0:54:44.560 --> 0:54:47.959 do you of all the basilions of ideas that flow 0:54:48.040 --> 0:54:53.359 through your head, how do you um narrowed down? I mean, 0:54:53.440 --> 0:54:54.960 is it is it like eventually it's like a throw 0:54:55.000 --> 0:54:56.239 in a dart at a wall and be like I'll 0:54:56.239 --> 0:54:58.000 pick that thing. Or does it become clear to you 0:54:58.040 --> 0:54:59.759 what you need to do when you're when you're doing 0:54:59.800 --> 0:55:03.520 book projects, You're like, I've been five years on when 0:55:03.560 --> 0:55:05.799 you said the five years, that's what I'm like, are 0:55:05.880 --> 0:55:11.279 you procrastinating for four? And what is the thing? Well, 0:55:11.320 --> 0:55:14.040 some people have said that I picked my books based 0:55:14.080 --> 0:55:17.759 on interesting travel that would be required. That's why I 0:55:17.760 --> 0:55:19.800 was going to ask about travel, because I was wondering 0:55:19.840 --> 0:55:22.759 how much you if it's always places you want to go, 0:55:22.960 --> 0:55:24.560 or if you ever like all that sucks, I gotta 0:55:24.560 --> 0:55:28.680 go there. Now that's not completely um untrue? You know 0:55:28.719 --> 0:55:31.560 I do. I do love to travel, and I do 0:55:31.800 --> 0:55:38.440 want to pick stories that require interesting far flung travel. Um. 0:55:38.520 --> 0:55:42.359 So that's true. Um, but it's also uh, you know, 0:55:42.520 --> 0:55:45.080 it's it's a whole combination of things. I think. I 0:55:45.080 --> 0:55:49.719 always say that it's like there's two sets of criteria. 0:55:49.760 --> 0:55:52.680 Are two ledgers that I use, Like one is one 0:55:52.800 --> 0:55:57.279 is the kind of rational ledger? You know, it's like 0:55:59.040 --> 0:56:02.919 is this a good story? Check? Is is there enough material? Check? 0:56:03.200 --> 0:56:05.279 Has it been written about? Not you know too much? 0:56:05.360 --> 0:56:07.920 Or not enough? Check? And you know, you check all 0:56:07.960 --> 0:56:11.080 the obvious boxes for what is will this make a 0:56:11.080 --> 0:56:14.560 good story? But then there's sort of the irrational side 0:56:14.560 --> 0:56:18.120 of it, which is does the hair on the back 0:56:18.160 --> 0:56:20.280 of your neck stand up when you think about this story? 0:56:20.560 --> 0:56:24.400 Does it grab you? Is it exciting? Is it? Is it? Uh? 0:56:24.680 --> 0:56:27.640 You know that kind of tingling in your gut feeling 0:56:27.680 --> 0:56:29.319 that I can I can live with this thing for 0:56:29.360 --> 0:56:33.600 five years and um, it'll sustain me. And you gotta 0:56:33.640 --> 0:56:35.760 have both of those. You've gotta have the rational side 0:56:35.760 --> 0:56:41.080 and the irrational side. Um. And I guess I guess 0:56:41.120 --> 0:56:43.080 timing also has something to do with it. I mean 0:56:43.920 --> 0:56:48.040 this Korean War book I thought about doing twenty years 0:56:48.040 --> 0:56:50.960 ago or fifteen years ago, uh, and kind of filed 0:56:50.960 --> 0:56:53.680 it away. How did it first? Like how did the 0:56:54.320 --> 0:56:57.080 how do how do you pronounce the chosen, chosen res chosen? 0:56:57.120 --> 0:57:00.319 I kdn't realize that. Yeah, how do you remember? How 0:57:00.400 --> 0:57:04.600 did the chosen reservoir? Or take kick Carson or the janette? Like, 0:57:05.120 --> 0:57:09.200 do you remember the first time entered your head? Yeah? Well, 0:57:09.440 --> 0:57:11.360 because I've never heard of it before. H And I 0:57:11.480 --> 0:57:15.440 was signing books, my first book, Ghost Soldiers, which is 0:57:15.480 --> 0:57:19.960 about some really tough dudes, the veterans of the Baton 0:57:20.080 --> 0:57:22.280 Death March. You don't you can't imagine people tougher than 0:57:22.600 --> 0:57:25.720 Baton Death March guys. But as I'm signing this book, 0:57:25.880 --> 0:57:29.440 this gentleman comes up who was a Korean War vet 0:57:29.800 --> 0:57:32.560 and he says like, yeah, he's Baton guys are a 0:57:32.560 --> 0:57:35.040 bunch of wuzzy's. You know, you should do a book 0:57:35.120 --> 0:57:39.080 on the on the reservoir. And I'm like, what, what's 0:57:39.080 --> 0:57:43.040 the reservoir? Tell me more? And he's like, well, you know, 0:57:43.360 --> 0:57:45.960 here's my card and he put his card down and 0:57:46.480 --> 0:57:49.040 it said the Chosen Few. It's the name of their 0:57:49.120 --> 0:57:51.920 organization called themselves the Chosen Few. And I like that 0:57:52.000 --> 0:57:54.880 little play on words. Yeah, and uh, Phil would like that. 0:57:55.960 --> 0:57:59.040 And he I noticed that he was missing his fingertips, 0:58:00.040 --> 0:58:04.240 and it turned out that he had lost his fingertips 0:58:04.480 --> 0:58:08.400 in the battle. Uh. I forgot to mention that this 0:58:08.520 --> 0:58:11.560 battle was fought in thirty five below zero weather, and 0:58:11.960 --> 0:58:14.560 uh that it was the third combatant. Really, you know, 0:58:14.600 --> 0:58:18.000 it's the Chinese, the Americans, and old Man Winter. It 0:58:18.120 --> 0:58:22.040 was fought in late November early December of n and 0:58:22.440 --> 0:58:26.320 uh it made an impression on me, you know, I 0:58:26.400 --> 0:58:28.800 was like, yeah, tell me more. And I took his 0:58:28.920 --> 0:58:31.600 card and I filed it away and began to read 0:58:31.640 --> 0:58:33.720 about it. But I think it took me about fifteen 0:58:33.800 --> 0:58:36.560 years before I started really deciding this is the time 0:58:36.640 --> 0:58:39.000 to write that book. But in the meantime, you're just 0:58:39.080 --> 0:58:43.440 you're probably reading books and you know, let me let 0:58:43.480 --> 0:58:46.560 me ask this question another way at this moment, sitting 0:58:46.640 --> 0:58:51.439 here right now, UM, how many contenders are floating around 0:58:51.480 --> 0:58:54.840 in your head? I don't know. I I got a list, 0:58:55.160 --> 0:58:59.600 uh four, maybe ten or ten or twenty book ideas 0:58:59.680 --> 0:59:01.320 that I might and you're not going to get to 0:59:01.440 --> 0:59:03.240 them all. Oh, I'm not gonna You're like, it's a 0:59:03.320 --> 0:59:05.680 race against the clock at a point, right, it's a 0:59:05.800 --> 0:59:08.160 right right against the clock. It's also race against Um, 0:59:08.840 --> 0:59:12.240 I mean I don't know about the future of publishing, 0:59:12.320 --> 0:59:13.840 you know, like I don't know if people are gonna 0:59:13.880 --> 0:59:16.400 be reading twenty years from now, at least not in 0:59:16.440 --> 0:59:19.880 the way that we think of of ink and glue 0:59:20.000 --> 0:59:23.480 and paper and you know, the old fashioned books that 0:59:23.640 --> 0:59:25.720 you know, I love to just read a good book 0:59:25.760 --> 0:59:29.480 and uh, you know, now it's it's a different kind 0:59:29.560 --> 0:59:33.800 of reading public. But but the you see, I'm getting 0:59:33.800 --> 0:59:34.919 back to I gotta ask you this, and I gotta 0:59:34.920 --> 0:59:38.680 go back to in their question. But the economics if 0:59:38.720 --> 0:59:41.840 people are reading on their phone, like that doesn't affect 0:59:41.880 --> 0:59:44.520 your economics, right, I mean too terribly. No, it's not. 0:59:44.760 --> 0:59:47.440 It's not too terrible. But do you mean they want 0:59:47.480 --> 0:59:51.760 to sit down and live with live with fies y, Yeah, 0:59:51.920 --> 0:59:54.000 that's part of it. I mean I have kids, as 0:59:54.200 --> 0:59:57.360 do you, and my kids, you know, attention span sometimes 0:59:57.760 --> 1:00:01.160 is lacking. You know. They like things quick, like movies quicker, 1:00:01.320 --> 1:00:05.120 they like they like you know, just uh you know, 1:00:05.560 --> 1:00:07.760 they want action, you know, and some of these books 1:00:07.840 --> 1:00:09.480 take a long time to set up, and you know, 1:00:09.680 --> 1:00:11.960 I mean they're long books, and you know, I just 1:00:12.120 --> 1:00:15.400 I don't know. Generational the generational reading reading habits is 1:00:15.440 --> 1:00:17.640 when one factor in all this, most of the people 1:00:17.680 --> 1:00:20.520 read my books are a little bit older. Um. You know, 1:00:20.600 --> 1:00:23.880 they're like people in their sixties, like, you know, start 1:00:23.960 --> 1:00:26.000 to really like history. I think it seems like that 1:00:26.080 --> 1:00:29.440 seems to be the turning point because you have to 1:00:29.520 --> 1:00:31.040 keep that in mind and you're writing. I kind of 1:00:31.120 --> 1:00:34.920 do you have to remember you're writing for Yeah, my 1:00:35.040 --> 1:00:37.000 wife was never worried when I went on book to her. 1:00:37.120 --> 1:00:40.000 You know, she's like because most a lot of my 1:00:40.040 --> 1:00:41.960 readers are like you can hear them coming before you 1:00:42.040 --> 1:00:45.600 see them. And uh, you know it depends generation. Um, 1:00:45.680 --> 1:00:49.240 but uh look, I love my readers and whatever age 1:00:49.280 --> 1:00:52.600 they are, and uh I do, I do have younger 1:00:52.680 --> 1:00:56.200 readers as too, but uh, I just do worry that. 1:00:56.320 --> 1:00:58.040 I guess this is just getting off on a tangent. 1:00:58.160 --> 1:01:00.280 But you know what is happening in publish ng and 1:01:00.880 --> 1:01:04.440 how as we're moving into the digital the digital age. Um. 1:01:05.200 --> 1:01:08.200 I also you know, audio books are are going going 1:01:08.280 --> 1:01:12.440 gangbusters and it's it's an edge. I read one of 1:01:12.520 --> 1:01:15.440 my books, um for an audio book, I don't know, 1:01:15.600 --> 1:01:18.840 did you read your like American Buffalo? Did you read 1:01:19.000 --> 1:01:22.000 after ten years? I did? Yeah, Well it was one 1:01:22.000 --> 1:01:24.480 of the hardest things I've ever done sitting in a studio. 1:01:24.720 --> 1:01:28.040 I I, um, I thought this. This producer said, it's 1:01:28.040 --> 1:01:31.040 gonna be really hard because, uh, you know, your mouth 1:01:31.120 --> 1:01:33.000 and your throat and your tongue, and you know, it's 1:01:33.080 --> 1:01:35.920 like sitting in a studio for eight, nine, ten hours 1:01:35.960 --> 1:01:38.520 a day reading. He said, it's gonna be like digging 1:01:38.560 --> 1:01:42.600 a six foot hole in the ground with your mouth. 1:01:44.920 --> 1:01:46.640 And that's the way it felt. That's the way it felt. 1:01:46.680 --> 1:01:50.480 But also I wanted to I wanted to change the book. Um, 1:01:51.040 --> 1:01:52.880 I mean, I kept saying, who wrote this crap? I 1:01:53.000 --> 1:01:55.120 I you know, I wanted to edit my own stuff 1:01:55.480 --> 1:01:59.480 for for a for a to be read aloud. Uh, 1:01:59.560 --> 1:02:02.160 And they say, you contractually, you cannot change a word 1:02:02.200 --> 1:02:04.160 of your own book. So you know, just have to 1:02:04.200 --> 1:02:08.240 read exactly what this clown wrote. But it was interesting. 1:02:09.520 --> 1:02:11.560 So audio books are going great though, I mean, they're 1:02:11.600 --> 1:02:14.680 selling and they're a bigger and bigger portion of the 1:02:15.000 --> 1:02:18.400 overall sales. Yeah, we just did a thing that went 1:02:18.520 --> 1:02:23.720 direct to audio and won't have a print life. That's 1:02:24.600 --> 1:02:27.600 it's like, yeah, but it's not. It's different the book. No, No, 1:02:27.720 --> 1:02:32.240 because it's it's um, it's a it's a collection of 1:02:32.280 --> 1:02:35.120 a bunch of people telling stories about Close Calls. But 1:02:35.240 --> 1:02:37.880 there's sort of like a there's a narrator component to 1:02:38.000 --> 1:02:40.560 it that comes in. But yeah, it was like I mean, 1:02:40.640 --> 1:02:42.600 you would experienced it very much like a book, but 1:02:42.640 --> 1:02:45.160 it just was built. You know you're talking about that 1:02:46.080 --> 1:02:47.800 you wrote it, if you were if you knew you 1:02:47.840 --> 1:02:49.160 were going to read it, you might have did some 1:02:49.240 --> 1:02:51.720 things differently just to have it worked that way. This 1:02:51.880 --> 1:02:54.480 is kind of like this project, which is called Close Calls, 1:02:55.160 --> 1:02:59.720 is just leaning into an adopt and adapting the project 1:02:59.840 --> 1:03:02.320 to be suitable to audio rather than having to be 1:03:02.720 --> 1:03:04.600 let's take a thing that was like built for print 1:03:05.160 --> 1:03:08.880 and make it audio like, just make it for audio, like, 1:03:08.960 --> 1:03:12.080 make it perfect for that format. Um. Yeah, And I 1:03:12.160 --> 1:03:13.960 think that that a little that a little bit ties 1:03:14.000 --> 1:03:17.160 into what you're saying about just trying to understand the future. Um. 1:03:18.600 --> 1:03:20.400 And you know, but you've probably learned to live with 1:03:20.400 --> 1:03:22.080 all that kind of fear because you were a magazine 1:03:22.080 --> 1:03:24.920 writer and you had to be nervous about how can 1:03:24.920 --> 1:03:26.720 I continue to pay the bills as a magazine writer, 1:03:27.200 --> 1:03:29.760 which is daunting. You've got to evolve and you know, 1:03:30.280 --> 1:03:35.160 we're living through I think one of the most consequential uh, 1:03:36.000 --> 1:03:39.800 periods of of change and transition in terms of information. 1:03:40.040 --> 1:03:43.080 And you know, it's like the Guttenberg Bible or whatever. 1:03:43.200 --> 1:03:45.280 You know, these these moments in history that are so 1:03:45.400 --> 1:03:50.120 important to publishing or two how information is spread around 1:03:50.160 --> 1:03:52.200 the world. Well, we're living through one of those moments 1:03:52.280 --> 1:03:55.280 now and that's you know, the digital age and everything 1:03:55.360 --> 1:03:58.680 that has come with it with the Internet. Um so everyone, 1:03:58.680 --> 1:04:00.560 all writers are having to evolve with it, trying to 1:04:00.560 --> 1:04:02.160 figure out how to make a living doing this and 1:04:03.120 --> 1:04:07.200 how to make their impact, you know, and you know, 1:04:07.800 --> 1:04:09.520 it's interesting. It's an interesting time. I think we have 1:04:09.600 --> 1:04:12.440 to look at it that way. It's interesting. Otherwise it's 1:04:12.520 --> 1:04:15.240 just kind of scary because the writers who aren't involving 1:04:15.320 --> 1:04:17.760 are are suffering. Now. I think there's either there's two 1:04:17.840 --> 1:04:20.880 paths you can take. You can take the path of 1:04:21.640 --> 1:04:26.240 resentment and fear, or you can take the path of 1:04:26.560 --> 1:04:28.680 there's a set of things that I want to talk about, 1:04:28.760 --> 1:04:30.640 and I'll continue to talk about those things. I don't 1:04:30.640 --> 1:04:33.280 give a ship what happens. It's like, and you'll find it. 1:04:33.680 --> 1:04:35.840 Take your choice, yeah, and you'll you'll find your own 1:04:35.920 --> 1:04:38.240 area almost yeah, you know, you know, when you were 1:04:38.280 --> 1:04:43.960 mentioned um interesting term for the cold Um during the 1:04:44.000 --> 1:04:47.360 creat there in the battle, the chosen chose what I was. 1:04:47.440 --> 1:04:50.600 I was like like, like chosen, Well, it's it's chose 1:04:50.680 --> 1:04:54.000 sin as is how you how as they say it. 1:04:54.080 --> 1:04:57.360 But and it's a complicated thing because that's a Japanese 1:04:57.440 --> 1:04:59.760 word even though it's set in Korea. But go ahead. 1:05:00.280 --> 1:05:03.720 You had an interesting term you used, which would be 1:05:03.760 --> 1:05:11.200 a third combatant for the cold Um. And there's things 1:05:11.200 --> 1:05:13.960 that I felt really stupid not even knowing that this happened. 1:05:14.040 --> 1:05:18.360 But to refer back to blood and thunder, Um, I 1:05:18.440 --> 1:05:22.000 didn't know that. During the Mexican American War, I didn't 1:05:22.000 --> 1:05:25.200 realize that we actually invaded that the U. S. Army 1:05:25.240 --> 1:05:27.720 invaded Mexico and made it all way to Mexico City. 1:05:28.480 --> 1:05:30.480 But remember you talk about like part of the strategy 1:05:31.240 --> 1:05:35.840 when someone invades Mexico is you just wait until yellow 1:05:35.880 --> 1:05:39.520 fever hits him or malaria, I can't remember what, and 1:05:39.680 --> 1:05:46.280 like let let disease take its toll, then we'll respond. Yeah, 1:05:46.320 --> 1:05:50.640 that happened. Uh, there was this huge amphibious invasion of 1:05:51.760 --> 1:05:54.320 Vera Cruz, Mexico, and then they marched all the way 1:05:54.360 --> 1:05:58.320 to uh, to Mexico City and held Mexico City for 1:05:58.480 --> 1:06:01.480 over a year. Uh um, occupied it. It's kind of 1:06:01.520 --> 1:06:03.280 a may. I don't think we teach that very much. 1:06:03.720 --> 1:06:05.960 I was. I remember, like, how like, how do I 1:06:06.040 --> 1:06:08.360 not know that we actually did that? Yeah? Yeah, we 1:06:08.440 --> 1:06:11.320 invaded their borders, you know, before they and you know 1:06:11.760 --> 1:06:15.120 there's so much news now about of course crossing the borders, 1:06:15.160 --> 1:06:18.640 and you know it's like it's it's a murky, messy 1:06:18.760 --> 1:06:24.440 history for sure. But but Carson kid, Carson Um and 1:06:24.560 --> 1:06:28.400 Blood and thunder, you know, is so mixed up in 1:06:28.480 --> 1:06:31.720 it all because he's married to a Mexican woman, a 1:06:31.760 --> 1:06:35.920 New Mexican woman, uh from Taos, New Mexico. And uh, 1:06:36.360 --> 1:06:38.720 he sort of sees all sides of it. And that's 1:06:38.720 --> 1:06:40.720 why he's such an interesting cat, is that you know, 1:06:40.840 --> 1:06:45.800 he's conflicted. He's his first wife was a rapp Yes, 1:06:46.080 --> 1:06:49.080 I had a child, they had two children, actually died. 1:06:49.240 --> 1:06:54.880 He like brought his his child to be raised elsewhere. Um. Yeah, 1:06:54.920 --> 1:06:58.640 like the and you think these people like like this 1:06:58.800 --> 1:07:01.680 like American figure, but most of the people around him 1:07:02.680 --> 1:07:06.600 in his life wouldn't have self identified as Americans. I 1:07:06.640 --> 1:07:09.320 mean that that idea hadn't really taken shape where he was, 1:07:09.640 --> 1:07:11.960 including him. I mean, he was a runaway. He tried 1:07:12.000 --> 1:07:15.080 to get away from America. He ran away on the 1:07:15.120 --> 1:07:19.440 Santa Fe Trail from Uh, from Missouri, and UH kind 1:07:19.480 --> 1:07:21.320 of never looked back. You know. He fell in love 1:07:21.360 --> 1:07:23.720 with the West. And as you mentioned, his first wife 1:07:23.800 --> 1:07:26.040 was a Rappaho and he lived with her tribe and 1:07:26.760 --> 1:07:31.240 spoke her language, and we always talked about it as 1:07:31.280 --> 1:07:34.360 being his favorite The favorite part of his life was 1:07:34.720 --> 1:07:37.360 was those years living with the Rappaho and being a 1:07:37.400 --> 1:07:41.959 mountain man. And but you know, eventually he after she died, 1:07:42.120 --> 1:07:45.120 he married a young woman from Taos, and then he 1:07:45.200 --> 1:07:49.320 started a different life. He converted to Catholicism, and he 1:07:50.160 --> 1:07:53.880 spoke Spanish and in the house and raised their kids 1:07:54.760 --> 1:07:57.480 speaking Spanish, and you know, he lived that life. He 1:07:57.960 --> 1:07:59.680 is like you know, as you say, Forrest Gump, but 1:08:00.240 --> 1:08:03.120 you know, he just keeps He has a cat with 1:08:03.280 --> 1:08:06.880 nine lives. He just organically morphs into the next guy, 1:08:06.960 --> 1:08:08.600 and then the next guy and the next guy. And 1:08:08.960 --> 1:08:12.120 by following his the trajectory of his life, you can 1:08:12.280 --> 1:08:15.720 begin to really understand all the different forces that shaped 1:08:15.840 --> 1:08:18.640 the American West. And that's that's really why I wrote it. 1:08:19.680 --> 1:08:24.719 There are two things in there that that that really 1:08:24.760 --> 1:08:26.920 strikes me in a way of just like understanding American 1:08:27.040 --> 1:08:29.320 history is I talked about the the idea of like 1:08:29.439 --> 1:08:32.000 being American being kind of a flimsy notion for a 1:08:32.080 --> 1:08:35.840 lot of the UM a lot of people who are 1:08:35.880 --> 1:08:38.840 in the Southwest, Like it wasn't like clearly defined, right. 1:08:39.360 --> 1:08:42.519 It was kind of like, you know, there's this government 1:08:42.680 --> 1:08:45.720 that's far away in Mexico and they exert some level 1:08:45.800 --> 1:08:48.719 of influence on this portion. And then also there's this governor, 1:08:48.800 --> 1:08:51.439 there's this government in Washington and they're exerting some level 1:08:51.479 --> 1:08:54.360 of influence. But it all seems very abstract to try 1:08:54.400 --> 1:08:57.240 to understand, like you know who to be with. But 1:08:57.680 --> 1:09:02.040 you can talk about when like the U. S. Army 1:09:02.280 --> 1:09:08.320 had people who had recently emigrated to America from Europe 1:09:09.200 --> 1:09:11.439 and they're leader they're in the U. S. Army, and 1:09:11.479 --> 1:09:15.280 their allegiance as Americans is also like fairly flimsy, and 1:09:15.320 --> 1:09:16.400 it's not a big part of the book. You make 1:09:16.439 --> 1:09:20.320 a mention of a group of um Irish Catholics who 1:09:20.400 --> 1:09:23.679 are in the U. S. Army waging war in Mexico 1:09:24.320 --> 1:09:29.960 and they feel conflicted between being a US citizen, but 1:09:30.160 --> 1:09:35.560 fighting against Catholics, that's right. And they leave the U. S. 1:09:35.720 --> 1:09:38.640 Army because they feel like they have like more of 1:09:38.680 --> 1:09:47.360 a sort of religious obligation. Two Roman Catholics, and then 1:09:47.479 --> 1:09:50.040 they leave to fight against the U. S. Army, And 1:09:50.080 --> 1:09:51.760 then the U. S. Army catches some of them in 1:09:51.960 --> 1:09:56.360 hangs fifty of them at once. They didn't tell you 1:09:56.360 --> 1:10:00.800 about that in history. Yeah, Like there's a painting of 1:10:00.840 --> 1:10:02.800 it in the in the Book of that Day when 1:10:02.840 --> 1:10:06.040 they hung those fifty people like man m hmm, just 1:10:06.120 --> 1:10:11.440 like just just I don't know, a sort of ruthlessness 1:10:12.320 --> 1:10:15.559 that existed then. Yeah, Yeah, it was a different obviously, 1:10:15.600 --> 1:10:18.120 a very different time, and I think the notion of 1:10:18.200 --> 1:10:21.160 what is an American was evolving then, you know, very 1:10:21.560 --> 1:10:24.400 very much. All of a sudden, all of a sudden, 1:10:25.200 --> 1:10:27.880 there was this western third of the continent that was 1:10:29.280 --> 1:10:31.960 kind of up for grabs. Uh. You know, I kind 1:10:31.960 --> 1:10:35.240 of described it as one of the largest land grabs 1:10:35.280 --> 1:10:37.640 in in in history. You know, like all of that 1:10:38.000 --> 1:10:40.679 terrain about the size of continental Europe was was taken 1:10:41.640 --> 1:10:45.840 uh in in one generation really in a four year 1:10:45.920 --> 1:10:50.479 period um in the eighteen forties. Uh. You just well, 1:10:50.560 --> 1:10:53.599 we'll take that we wanted all people in the time 1:10:53.640 --> 1:10:57.080 that we're involved in even acknowledging that they were in 1:10:57.160 --> 1:11:00.880 a moral they're a little bit of shaky ground, yes, 1:11:01.080 --> 1:11:04.360 and and that's why you know, people like Kid Carson, 1:11:05.080 --> 1:11:07.400 you know, you know, it's like they needed folk heroes 1:11:07.479 --> 1:11:10.639 back east to sort of begin to justify this land grab. 1:11:10.800 --> 1:11:15.080 They needed great stories of plucky guys who were already 1:11:15.120 --> 1:11:19.320 there out west. And uh, there was all these books 1:11:19.400 --> 1:11:22.879 that came out um that were kind of the proto Western's, 1:11:22.920 --> 1:11:25.679 early westerns that were called Blood and Thunders. That's where 1:11:25.680 --> 1:11:28.000 the title of my book comes from. Blood Thunders were 1:11:28.080 --> 1:11:30.960 these pulp westerns, and they always had some kind of 1:11:32.120 --> 1:11:37.200 hero who often was Kit carson Um. Kind of now 1:11:37.200 --> 1:11:40.080 we're getting into the fictional Kit carson Um. They said 1:11:40.160 --> 1:11:42.160 he was a you know, six foot eight and arian 1:11:42.240 --> 1:11:44.479 and blue eyed and he got all the ladies and 1:11:45.120 --> 1:11:48.280 win the day. And you know, uh, that wasn't what 1:11:48.400 --> 1:11:50.600 Kick Carson was really like at all. He was like 1:11:50.720 --> 1:11:56.840 five ft four, five ft five, awkward voice, I don't 1:11:56.880 --> 1:11:58.960 know about that, but a little twinkle in his eye. 1:11:59.000 --> 1:12:01.960 He was mischievous, but he was just to not you know, 1:12:02.520 --> 1:12:08.240 he spoke seven Indian languages. He was a lifelong, devoted 1:12:08.640 --> 1:12:12.400 friend to many Indian tribes. Don't go be wrong. He 1:12:12.439 --> 1:12:16.000 had an amazing life. But he wasn't this pulp hero 1:12:16.280 --> 1:12:19.840 that seemingly people back East writers back East needed to 1:12:20.520 --> 1:12:25.720 uh to celebrate. You know. He was this uh kind 1:12:25.760 --> 1:12:32.760 of ordinary guy who was extremely loyal. Uh. I mean 1:12:32.800 --> 1:12:34.479 it'd be great if you could have interviewed him on 1:12:34.560 --> 1:12:36.839 your show here, because I mean he was the ultimate 1:12:37.200 --> 1:12:40.160 meat eater, you know, like he he knew how to 1:12:40.400 --> 1:12:42.920 he knew how to hunt, and he knew how to fish, 1:12:42.960 --> 1:12:46.439 and he knew he knew how to butcher an animal 1:12:46.640 --> 1:12:49.519 and set up a camp and strike a camp, and 1:12:49.920 --> 1:12:51.760 he knew win to fight and win to bluff and 1:12:52.400 --> 1:12:54.879 you know, he just had all this sort of panoply 1:12:54.920 --> 1:12:59.960 of skills um that you know got him through a 1:13:00.040 --> 1:13:04.360 whole life living out here. And uh but he but 1:13:04.479 --> 1:13:08.320 he wasn't that that that sort of um cape crusader 1:13:08.760 --> 1:13:12.320 mythic hero that was that was the protagonist of these 1:13:12.360 --> 1:13:14.759 Blood and thunderbooks. Back East did a lot of running 1:13:14.760 --> 1:13:19.720 away for that to be true, right right right? You 1:13:19.800 --> 1:13:21.559 know what when when to fight and went out to fight? 1:13:22.280 --> 1:13:25.320 Yeah he he, uh he did. I mean, and that 1:13:25.439 --> 1:13:28.679 was one of his great skills, was, you know, sensing 1:13:28.720 --> 1:13:31.880 the situation. There was one particular battle in the Panhandle 1:13:31.960 --> 1:13:34.920 of Texas at a place called Adobe Walls where he 1:13:35.040 --> 1:13:39.519 was completely surrounded by Comanches and uh he in a 1:13:39.600 --> 1:13:45.280 small army and mostly an army of other Native American tribes. Actually, um, 1:13:45.600 --> 1:13:47.439 but he realized he fought with the youths a lot. 1:13:47.560 --> 1:13:49.439 He fought with the youths a lot, like you'd bring up. 1:13:49.479 --> 1:13:52.639 They traveled with them, they did, and they were his scouts. 1:13:53.320 --> 1:13:56.680 But um, he in that particular situation just figured out 1:13:56.680 --> 1:14:00.880 a way to get extricate, extricate himself from it. Add 1:14:01.720 --> 1:14:04.120 it was, it was another retreat story. I guess I'm 1:14:04.200 --> 1:14:07.800 kind of attracted to them. But he lived to fight 1:14:07.840 --> 1:14:11.519 another day. He figured out that, you know, this could 1:14:11.560 --> 1:14:15.760 have been Custard Custer times ten, you know, but he 1:14:16.240 --> 1:14:21.599 he was smart enough and uh cool under pressure enough too, 1:14:22.760 --> 1:14:25.799 to remove himself from that particular situation. Are you familiar 1:14:25.840 --> 1:14:29.720 with that. There's the first Battle of Adobe Walls and 1:14:29.840 --> 1:14:33.320 the second battle there too. He was involved in the 1:14:33.400 --> 1:14:35.559 first one. Yeah. Did you did you visit that site? Yeah? 1:14:36.200 --> 1:14:38.760 I haven't been there. Yeah. Yeah. The second one was 1:14:38.800 --> 1:14:42.080 a much minor deal, was Buffalo hunters like hide hunters 1:14:42.200 --> 1:14:44.760 versus I think But I believe the commanche in Kiowa again, Yeah, 1:14:44.800 --> 1:14:46.880 I think so in that same setup. How how do 1:14:46.960 --> 1:14:52.960 you approach, um, coming to a conclusion? UM? In your job, 1:14:53.040 --> 1:14:55.639 you gotta suss through all these sources, many of which 1:14:55.680 --> 1:14:58.360 are not around today, certainly when you're talking about kid 1:14:58.439 --> 1:15:02.920 Carson uh. Um, but you can very well come to 1:15:03.000 --> 1:15:07.680 a conclusion that can be refuted, uh even the next year. Right, 1:15:07.760 --> 1:15:11.040 Like we always talk about advances and technology and new 1:15:11.160 --> 1:15:14.040 findings and going back and looking at that thing in 1:15:14.080 --> 1:15:16.960 the drawer with the new technology that we have to 1:15:17.160 --> 1:15:20.160 have today. It happens, go through tons of stories like 1:15:20.240 --> 1:15:22.360 that all the time. UM. But you kind of brought 1:15:22.439 --> 1:15:25.280 it up in your UM when we're talking about James 1:15:25.320 --> 1:15:29.120 Earl Ray right, like you decided that that he did 1:15:29.160 --> 1:15:31.360 it right, because there's a whole bunch of other folks 1:15:31.400 --> 1:15:35.360 out there that think that conspiracy, big conspiracy, and a 1:15:35.400 --> 1:15:38.439 bunch of other things. So I guess I'm kind of 1:15:38.520 --> 1:15:43.599 interested in in UM, if you have a certain approach 1:15:43.720 --> 1:15:47.439 to coming to a conclusion with either a historical figure 1:15:48.160 --> 1:15:54.320 or a battle, and UM if now that you you 1:15:54.479 --> 1:16:00.800 have such a deep, um, you know, library of books 1:16:00.840 --> 1:16:03.519 that you've written, if if you've come across people who 1:16:03.520 --> 1:16:08.439 are supportive or not supportive, if you if you're working 1:16:08.479 --> 1:16:10.560 on the next story because you they don't like the 1:16:10.600 --> 1:16:14.160 conclusion that you came to. Well, absolutely, I mean, you 1:16:14.200 --> 1:16:16.400 know you're making a million little judgment calls all the 1:16:16.520 --> 1:16:19.200 time when you write a piece of narrative history. You know, 1:16:19.400 --> 1:16:22.800 you are you you have to unfortunately and and uh, 1:16:23.160 --> 1:16:25.439 you make mistakes sometimes and I think you know it's 1:16:25.479 --> 1:16:30.639 certainly um uh it's an art, very muddy, messy art, 1:16:30.760 --> 1:16:34.320 not a science. UM. And you have to be open 1:16:34.400 --> 1:16:36.560 minded like that maybe you were wrong. Uh, you know, 1:16:36.720 --> 1:16:39.240 maybe you have to revisit a subject sometime down the 1:16:39.320 --> 1:16:41.840 line and say I got that wrong. But in the 1:16:42.000 --> 1:16:44.840 end you just gotta be it's fair and as meticulous 1:16:45.040 --> 1:16:48.960 and as uh you know, try as hard as you 1:16:49.040 --> 1:16:51.639 can to put yourself in those times and not judge 1:16:51.720 --> 1:16:56.840 them by you know, today's standards of of UM politics 1:16:57.040 --> 1:17:01.120 or you know, sensibilities that we have today. UM. And 1:17:01.920 --> 1:17:04.320 uh read as many things as you can read, and 1:17:05.080 --> 1:17:07.400 you know, try to understand the times and give as 1:17:07.479 --> 1:17:13.840 much context as possible. UM. James were way. Interestingly, you know, 1:17:14.439 --> 1:17:20.960 I did not reckon with the the ferocity of this 1:17:21.720 --> 1:17:25.320 of the conspiracy people UM when I wrote that book. Uh, 1:17:25.760 --> 1:17:28.920 you know they're there. There's a small but very vocal 1:17:29.040 --> 1:17:34.000 group of people who who live just you know, live 1:17:34.080 --> 1:17:38.840 their life around conspiracies. And and it's a conspiracy. Well 1:17:38.960 --> 1:17:41.639 that one, but often it's that one is often tied 1:17:41.680 --> 1:17:45.519 to JFK and RFK at least at least those three. Um. 1:17:46.720 --> 1:17:49.559 But you know, like I knew they were out there, 1:17:49.800 --> 1:17:51.960 and I knew they wouldn't like my book because I 1:17:52.040 --> 1:17:56.200 happened to have decided independently that Ray pulled the trigger. 1:17:57.200 --> 1:18:00.320 But you know, wow, they are they hate eat me, 1:18:00.600 --> 1:18:04.680 they hate my book. They I am the enemy. You know. 1:18:04.840 --> 1:18:07.719 They actually have said things like Hampton Sides is obviously 1:18:08.400 --> 1:18:13.040 a name that was invented by the CIA UM and uh, 1:18:13.360 --> 1:18:16.120 you know he's obviously your previous works were all part 1:18:16.160 --> 1:18:18.720 of the same scheme. Like what they'll do is they'll 1:18:18.840 --> 1:18:22.599 establish him as a prominent author. I was groomed from 1:18:22.600 --> 1:18:25.640 an early will he then I was groomed from an 1:18:25.680 --> 1:18:28.800 early age to write this book. And uh, or it's 1:18:28.840 --> 1:18:31.600 just a made up name. I'm not even it's not 1:18:31.720 --> 1:18:36.760 even really me. It was written by some committee or something. Um. Oh, 1:18:36.920 --> 1:18:40.400 I mean I'm always approached by these people who at 1:18:40.479 --> 1:18:45.519 my talks about about that book. Uh that usually these 1:18:45.520 --> 1:18:50.080 are they almost always have two pays um or you know, 1:18:50.840 --> 1:18:53.160 really bad Dan Dreffer. You know, just something about them 1:18:53.240 --> 1:18:55.519 is off. And you can tell, oh, here he comes here, 1:18:55.760 --> 1:18:58.560 he's gonna he's coming at me now with you're not 1:18:58.680 --> 1:19:00.720 even done talking, you know, the that's going to be 1:19:00.800 --> 1:19:03.439 the guy that Yeah, and so you know, it's like 1:19:03.520 --> 1:19:05.320 they didn't It's not about whether they liked my book 1:19:05.400 --> 1:19:07.519 or the way I wrote it or or or where 1:19:07.600 --> 1:19:11.280 the uh you know, did I use nice metaphors or something. 1:19:11.520 --> 1:19:13.840 It's that they hate my guts because I came to 1:19:13.880 --> 1:19:16.880 a conclusion they don't agree with. And so conspiracy people 1:19:17.000 --> 1:19:19.840 are And I actually went to one of their I 1:19:19.880 --> 1:19:21.599 went kind of undercover one time and went to one 1:19:21.640 --> 1:19:24.559 of their gatherings, uh research, Yes, yeah, I just kind 1:19:24.600 --> 1:19:26.800 of want to understand who these folks are. And you know, 1:19:28.360 --> 1:19:31.479 everything is a conspiracy. Everything is connected. Everything you know, 1:19:31.800 --> 1:19:35.680 it's connected back to j Edgar Hoover and and uh 1:19:36.400 --> 1:19:41.360 the world you know, world order, you know, whatever the 1:19:41.400 --> 1:19:46.880 black helicopters, you know, Um and uh, nine eleven didn't 1:19:46.920 --> 1:19:48.840 really happen the way we thought it did because you 1:19:48.880 --> 1:19:51.559 know Bush ordered it all and you know he knew 1:19:51.560 --> 1:19:53.920 about it from the start, and you know it's like whoa, 1:19:54.120 --> 1:19:59.040 you just take some deep dives into into this alternative history. 1:19:59.160 --> 1:20:03.440 It's really it's fascinating and I think ultimately kind of pathetic. 1:20:03.800 --> 1:20:07.599 But um, these these people live and breathe. It's it's 1:20:07.640 --> 1:20:09.360 part of their is a big part of their identity. 1:20:10.240 --> 1:20:13.160 You know. Earlier I said there was two this is 1:20:13.200 --> 1:20:16.559 my last question about Kick Carson. But um, I said, 1:20:16.560 --> 1:20:17.960 there's two things that really stood out to me, and 1:20:18.040 --> 1:20:21.560 there uh one of them being I brought up the 1:20:21.600 --> 1:20:26.120 one about the sort of um developing sense of like 1:20:26.160 --> 1:20:28.960 American nous, you know, like people understand what that meant, 1:20:29.000 --> 1:20:32.040 and um that that it wasn't as sort of it 1:20:32.160 --> 1:20:35.200 wasn't like is as clean as we now imagine it, 1:20:35.360 --> 1:20:39.120 like how you identify your your national identity in those areas. 1:20:39.360 --> 1:20:46.920 But the second thing was how overt you mentioned earlier 1:20:47.000 --> 1:20:51.679 he was he wasn't responsible for um bringing the Navajo 1:20:52.160 --> 1:20:56.320 into reservation confinement and there had been a vaccine problem 1:20:56.360 --> 1:20:59.200 for hundreds of years, like the the war with New 1:20:59.280 --> 1:21:03.120 Mexicans in the Navajo, and then they finally put the task, 1:21:03.200 --> 1:21:05.920 they got serious about it and put the task to 1:21:06.040 --> 1:21:10.320 kick carson Um. Can can you talk a little bit 1:21:10.320 --> 1:21:13.760 about just like that the way he engaged and I 1:21:13.800 --> 1:21:17.960 think he used the term like total warfare, scorched earth policy. 1:21:19.000 --> 1:21:21.520 Can can you real quick walk through like what exactly 1:21:21.640 --> 1:21:25.280 that guy did to accomplish that task? Yeah? So so 1:21:25.439 --> 1:21:27.599 like for hundreds of years there had been this kind 1:21:27.640 --> 1:21:29.880 of low grade war between the New Mexicans and the 1:21:30.160 --> 1:21:33.759 DNA that Navajo where they were stealing each other's women 1:21:33.800 --> 1:21:38.040 and children and cattle and sheep and uh, it was 1:21:38.080 --> 1:21:40.439 just horrible. It was a horrible existence on both sides, 1:21:40.600 --> 1:21:43.760 like a slave trade slave between the two of them, 1:21:44.280 --> 1:21:47.599 And and you couldn't leave your house along the Rio 1:21:47.680 --> 1:21:51.920 Grand without fear of being kidnapped and vice versa. These 1:21:52.040 --> 1:21:54.360 these Denay would be doing their thing in places like 1:21:54.479 --> 1:21:58.720 Kenyan de Shay and suddenly a slave raid would come 1:21:58.800 --> 1:22:02.200 from you, a Spanish slave raid would come and take 1:22:02.640 --> 1:22:05.479 take women and children, and it was it was a 1:22:05.560 --> 1:22:08.680 horrible existence for everyone, I think. And so when the 1:22:08.720 --> 1:22:12.599 Americans showed up during the Mexican War and took over. Um. 1:22:13.800 --> 1:22:17.840 They looked at this problem and began to figure out, 1:22:17.960 --> 1:22:19.840 you know, how do we solve it, how do we 1:22:19.920 --> 1:22:23.759 stop this back and forth stealing of each other's people 1:22:24.000 --> 1:22:28.600 and cattle, um. And you know, they zeroed in on 1:22:28.680 --> 1:22:31.280 the didn't A because they were very successful raiders. They 1:22:31.320 --> 1:22:37.120 were they were a thriving, huge culture to the west 1:22:37.200 --> 1:22:43.240 of the Rio Grand Uh. They were. They were expert raiders. 1:22:43.479 --> 1:22:46.280 And they decided, this is the first group we're really 1:22:46.280 --> 1:22:48.000 gonna have to go after. You know. Of course the 1:22:48.680 --> 1:22:52.000 Comanches were also raiders, and so were the Apache um 1:22:53.320 --> 1:23:00.400 and so so there was this general General uh Henry Carlton, 1:23:01.200 --> 1:23:04.920 who James Henry Carlton, who decided once and for all 1:23:05.120 --> 1:23:07.960 that we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna really 1:23:08.000 --> 1:23:10.880 go after the Nova and we're gonna move them to 1:23:11.360 --> 1:23:14.640 the Pacos River, and we're gonna rewire their whole society 1:23:14.760 --> 1:23:19.600 and make them stop roaming around and teach him the 1:23:19.640 --> 1:23:24.200 big Christian farmers living in like apartment buildings and and 1:23:24.720 --> 1:23:29.360 and and dense areas, uh and you know, make them 1:23:29.400 --> 1:23:34.639 more like us basically. Uh. And and he decided this guy, 1:23:35.000 --> 1:23:38.720 General Carlton that kick. Carson had to had to lead 1:23:38.760 --> 1:23:41.800 the fight because it was going to be the culminating 1:23:41.840 --> 1:23:45.120 act of his career. And Carson very much did not 1:23:45.240 --> 1:23:50.000 want to do this. At first. He he rejected overtures. 1:23:50.760 --> 1:23:53.640 He actually resigned from the army at one point. Uh, 1:23:54.280 --> 1:23:57.040 but in the end he was convinced to do it. 1:23:57.240 --> 1:23:59.560 And how he did it, you know, it's like a 1:23:59.640 --> 1:24:05.799 couple of years before Sherman's famous scorched earth campaign against 1:24:05.880 --> 1:24:11.920 the South, Carson lead a scorched earth campaign against the 1:24:12.000 --> 1:24:14.640 novel that was every bit as brutal. Um the way 1:24:14.680 --> 1:24:17.439 he did it. He realized he couldn't fight the novel hoo, 1:24:17.600 --> 1:24:20.879 because they didn't fight in that any kind of traditional 1:24:20.960 --> 1:24:26.840 way with lines of with with you know, um, you know, 1:24:27.320 --> 1:24:30.760 basically they scattered, you know, and they not The who 1:24:30.840 --> 1:24:33.320 country is so conducive to scattering. You know, there's just 1:24:33.479 --> 1:24:37.680 endless canyons and caves and um. It's so Carson was 1:24:37.720 --> 1:24:40.240 frustrated he couldn't fight them, so he decided to fight 1:24:40.560 --> 1:24:44.560 their land. He you know, he killed every horse and 1:24:44.720 --> 1:24:50.680 every cow and every sheep, and he burned every cornfield 1:24:50.760 --> 1:24:55.360 and every peach tree, and uh, it was a war 1:24:55.479 --> 1:24:58.160 on the land. And um, I remember you're talking about 1:24:58.200 --> 1:25:02.360 like chopping down thought of orchard trees. Yeah, that's the 1:25:02.439 --> 1:25:06.760 famous part of the campaign in into Canyon Kenyon D. Shay. 1:25:07.880 --> 1:25:10.599 He also like had his men guard the water sources 1:25:10.640 --> 1:25:13.040 and the salt sources, and you know, it was just 1:25:13.200 --> 1:25:15.160 the systematic thing. And so you have this guy who 1:25:15.320 --> 1:25:18.320 very very much didn't want to do this. It was 1:25:18.439 --> 1:25:24.400 very reluctant, but somehow once he began, he turned out 1:25:24.439 --> 1:25:28.280 to be really good at this kind of warfare. Um 1:25:28.880 --> 1:25:31.439 and and it kind of went against so many of 1:25:31.560 --> 1:25:35.559 his instincts, and yet he led this campaign. He understood 1:25:35.560 --> 1:25:38.280 the landscape like no one did though, you know, and 1:25:38.360 --> 1:25:41.080 it worked, I mean and within a within a year, 1:25:41.400 --> 1:25:44.720 it took about a year. They began to starve, and 1:25:44.800 --> 1:25:47.519 they began to surrender in ones and twos and then 1:25:47.720 --> 1:25:51.439 dozens and then scores than hundreds and hundreds and thousands. 1:25:52.000 --> 1:25:55.280 This was one of the largest tribes in the North America. 1:25:55.560 --> 1:26:01.320 And he brought them to their knees and in the end, 1:26:01.360 --> 1:26:03.360 it was like they came to him, and they came 1:26:03.439 --> 1:26:04.840 to him. I'd be like if you took a town, 1:26:04.960 --> 1:26:06.519 like if you imagine today, you took a town and 1:26:06.640 --> 1:26:09.080 you came in and said like, okay, you destroy the 1:26:09.160 --> 1:26:12.559 highway coming into the town on either end, blow up 1:26:12.600 --> 1:26:16.240 all the gas stations, burn all the grocery stores. Right 1:26:16.720 --> 1:26:18.720 then you sit back and be like, give it a minute, boys, 1:26:18.720 --> 1:26:22.320 they'll be out. And eventually, you know, it's just like 1:26:22.880 --> 1:26:25.040 and then they were marched on this kind of thing 1:26:25.120 --> 1:26:28.000 that's often compared to the Trail of Tears of the Cherokee. 1:26:28.120 --> 1:26:30.360 But they were marched to this place on the Picos, 1:26:31.040 --> 1:26:33.160 and they tried to make it work, but it was 1:26:33.280 --> 1:26:36.439 so alien. It was such an alien environment to the Navajo, 1:26:37.080 --> 1:26:43.120 you know, just just in terms of geography, but also 1:26:43.160 --> 1:26:44.519 in terms of you know, it's like there was just 1:26:44.640 --> 1:26:47.840 nothing recognizable out there. It was like Mesquite and you know, 1:26:48.040 --> 1:26:52.160 just this kind of semi arid desert without all of 1:26:52.200 --> 1:26:56.320 those amazing rock formations that the not that that that DNA. 1:26:56.920 --> 1:26:59.600 You know, we we think of the Dnay Country and 1:26:59.640 --> 1:27:03.080 we think ship Rock and Monument Valley and all these 1:27:03.120 --> 1:27:08.080 amazing places. That this was just this flat, boring swatch 1:27:08.160 --> 1:27:09.880 a land on the Pacos. And and it turned out 1:27:09.920 --> 1:27:12.240 there wasn't enough firewood to keep them warm. There wasn't 1:27:12.360 --> 1:27:15.800 enough clean water for them to drink and UH, and 1:27:15.840 --> 1:27:19.240 they didn't want to be congested in a tight little area. UM. 1:27:19.520 --> 1:27:22.960 And they just it was like they suffered. The tribe 1:27:22.960 --> 1:27:27.040 suffered a psychological breakdown. You know, It's like they wouldn't plant, 1:27:27.200 --> 1:27:31.360 they gave up. They were morose and UH, diseases took 1:27:31.400 --> 1:27:35.280 over and a third of the Navajo died and in 1:27:35.400 --> 1:27:40.880 a few short years, and Carson understood this wasn't working. Um. 1:27:41.479 --> 1:27:45.680 General Carlton refused to admit that. UH. And finally it 1:27:45.720 --> 1:27:49.960 took General Sherman after the Civil War. General Sherman came 1:27:49.960 --> 1:27:52.960 out all the way to the Pacos and saw what 1:27:53.160 --> 1:27:57.719 was going on and realized that this huge experiment had failed. 1:27:57.960 --> 1:28:02.560 And he eventually sent them back to Navajo country. And 1:28:02.840 --> 1:28:05.240 it's one of the very few examples where people were 1:28:05.640 --> 1:28:07.920 you know, tribe was removed from its homeland but then 1:28:08.000 --> 1:28:13.880 returned to their homeland. UH. Somewhat bitter sweet, um, somewhat 1:28:13.880 --> 1:28:16.839 happy ending for the Nava Navajo after all this tragedy, 1:28:17.000 --> 1:28:28.559 that they were actually allowed to go home. When you're 1:28:29.720 --> 1:28:34.040 looking at your book subjects and thinking about what you're 1:28:34.040 --> 1:28:36.640 gonna do, uh, you were talking about things having things 1:28:36.680 --> 1:28:39.000 that you need to check, you know, sort of the 1:28:39.479 --> 1:28:41.080 I don't know, I can't remember what term you used, 1:28:41.120 --> 1:28:43.320 but there's sort of a yeah. I mean, you know, 1:28:43.400 --> 1:28:45.559 it's got to have good characters, just have good plot, 1:28:45.760 --> 1:28:48.080 good structure, you know, all the things that a good 1:28:48.160 --> 1:28:53.840 story needs to have. Do you, um, is death like 1:28:54.000 --> 1:28:59.560 death's big part of like misery and death? Are you 1:28:59.760 --> 1:29:01.720 are are you aware of that component or is that 1:29:01.840 --> 1:29:04.720 just sort of like uh that just happened. Yeah, well, 1:29:04.840 --> 1:29:06.280 I mean do you go like it has to have 1:29:06.560 --> 1:29:10.320 it has the about life and death? I suppose. I mean, 1:29:10.439 --> 1:29:15.040 I I don't think that I'm you know, uh, gratuitously 1:29:16.600 --> 1:29:22.240 depressed or looking for depressed subjects just just for the 1:29:22.320 --> 1:29:26.320 sake of of of making you know, making people um, 1:29:27.560 --> 1:29:31.080 you know down, you know. But I do think that 1:29:31.439 --> 1:29:34.000 you do have to have highs and lows, and a 1:29:34.080 --> 1:29:36.920 good narrative needs to have high stakes and it needs 1:29:37.000 --> 1:29:40.600 to you know, you need to care about there the 1:29:40.720 --> 1:29:44.200 character's fate, whether they're gonna live or die, whether they're 1:29:44.200 --> 1:29:49.479 going to survive uh and um uh yeah, I think 1:29:49.600 --> 1:29:52.519 a good narrative has history, has to has to have 1:29:52.640 --> 1:29:58.000 that component. Um, your felt, Little Santa Fean Corman McCarthy 1:29:58.560 --> 1:30:02.080 talks about you know this is I'm paraphrasing, but something 1:30:02.120 --> 1:30:03.400 to the effect of that. You know, if it's not 1:30:03.520 --> 1:30:08.000 about death, it's not important. It's about how you how 1:30:08.080 --> 1:30:10.880 people face death, and how they get through an ordeal 1:30:11.000 --> 1:30:14.880 and how they you know, all the combination of traits 1:30:15.680 --> 1:30:20.960 that they summoned to to survive, uh, an extreme situation. 1:30:21.080 --> 1:30:22.960 I guess that's a theme that runs through almost all 1:30:23.000 --> 1:30:25.560 my books. Um, for some reason, it just is a 1:30:25.840 --> 1:30:28.200 theme I keep returning to. And the truth is, you know, 1:30:28.360 --> 1:30:31.519 like a story and where in which everybody is happy 1:30:31.560 --> 1:30:34.040 and everything goes well and there is no adversity and 1:30:34.200 --> 1:30:37.680 and no one dies is rarely a good story. I'm sorry, Um, 1:30:37.880 --> 1:30:41.680 Sometimes what's the number one best seller? That everybody had 1:30:41.720 --> 1:30:44.760 everything they needed and lived happily every after and we 1:30:44.840 --> 1:30:48.559 started at a spot where they were still happy. I mean, 1:30:48.600 --> 1:30:50.680 there are a lot of stories that don't involve a 1:30:50.760 --> 1:30:54.439 lot of death. I guess like a political writer is 1:30:54.520 --> 1:30:56.960 writing about, right, I don't know, if you're reporting on 1:30:57.080 --> 1:31:00.240 a campaign, Yeah, they just stopped before they get there. 1:31:01.120 --> 1:31:04.080 We know this will eventually have this implication. Imagine these 1:31:04.120 --> 1:31:09.200 people all be dead, you know, tell us about tell 1:31:09.280 --> 1:31:13.760 us about how you got on, um, how you got 1:31:13.800 --> 1:31:15.600 on a Captain Cook? Like what like, how did that 1:31:15.680 --> 1:31:20.600 wind up grabbing you? Well? Um, I uh, I've been 1:31:20.640 --> 1:31:22.160 thinking about him for a long time because of that 1:31:22.640 --> 1:31:24.960 in the Kingdom of Ice story, which is you know, 1:31:25.960 --> 1:31:30.920 set in Alaska and in Siberia, and the only other 1:31:30.960 --> 1:31:33.800 person really tried to do what the Jeanette did was 1:31:34.360 --> 1:31:38.040 Captain Cook. Um. Captain Cook charted the entire coast of 1:31:38.080 --> 1:31:42.080 Alaska and on his third voyage, and you know, he's 1:31:42.120 --> 1:31:45.640 mostly associated with the South Seas, but Captain Cook was 1:31:45.720 --> 1:31:49.599 all over Alaska. Like we had our little thing where 1:31:49.600 --> 1:31:52.200 we kept going past where he died fish in a 1:31:52.240 --> 1:31:55.200 WAYI yeah, So then I got to read that night, 1:31:55.280 --> 1:31:56.920 we'd get done fish and I'd go read about Captain 1:31:56.920 --> 1:32:00.400 Cook a little bit. But um almost seems like almost 1:32:00.439 --> 1:32:05.400 like casually moving between like he'd go to Alaska then 1:32:05.439 --> 1:32:08.439 wind up out in the south the back to Alaska, right, which, 1:32:08.560 --> 1:32:11.840 interestingly enough, is what a ton of people in Alaska 1:32:11.960 --> 1:32:16.799 and it was such a strong connection between those two places. 1:32:17.800 --> 1:32:19.799 That's one of my brother. My brother lives in Alaska, 1:32:19.840 --> 1:32:21.800 and he's like, you know how it was because we 1:32:21.840 --> 1:32:23.600 grew up in Michigan, because you know how it is 1:32:23.640 --> 1:32:31.519 with Michigan people in Florida. He goes in Alaska. That's why. Yeah, well, 1:32:31.760 --> 1:32:35.519 you know, part somewhat facetiously, My wife said that, uh, 1:32:35.920 --> 1:32:37.880 you know, it's like you do all these books, like 1:32:37.960 --> 1:32:39.720 you did this book that's set in Siberia, and you 1:32:39.800 --> 1:32:42.280 did books setting the kind of remote part of the Philippines, 1:32:42.400 --> 1:32:45.080 and you know, why don't you pick a book that 1:32:45.080 --> 1:32:47.160 involves travel to places I would like to go to? 1:32:47.800 --> 1:32:52.519 Uh and we go together. And she was kind of kidding, 1:32:52.600 --> 1:32:55.680 but she was not really kidding. And I said, well, 1:32:57.000 --> 1:32:59.960 I've kind of fished out the old notes from previous 1:33:00.000 --> 1:33:03.960 book ideas and I said, well, how about Captain Cook? Um? Uh. 1:33:04.760 --> 1:33:07.160 She's like, well, where did that involve going to? And 1:33:07.280 --> 1:33:14.200 I said, well, you know, um, Tahiti, French Polynesia, you know, uh, Donga, 1:33:15.040 --> 1:33:21.840 New Zealand, Alaska, lots of other places. She's like, okay, bingo, 1:33:21.960 --> 1:33:23.560 that's it. That's the one. But but you know, I 1:33:23.600 --> 1:33:26.519 started looking at Kit Carson and I realized, I mean 1:33:27.520 --> 1:33:33.400 Captain Cook's story. Um, Captain Cook is a very controversial cat, 1:33:33.520 --> 1:33:35.720 just like Kid Carson. And you know, in terms of 1:33:35.760 --> 1:33:38.840 we were talking earlier of statues coming down and people 1:33:39.200 --> 1:33:44.360 um uh reassessing his legacy or something like that, And 1:33:44.640 --> 1:33:47.759 to me, that made him more interesting. Like whenever, whenever 1:33:48.520 --> 1:33:51.920 a historical subject has a pulse and has a controversy 1:33:51.960 --> 1:33:54.600 surrounding it, all the much better. Better. You know, like 1:33:54.720 --> 1:33:57.600 you're like, you're aware of whatever if you if you 1:33:57.840 --> 1:34:02.040 humanize him, you're where that you will be criticized. Ye, 1:34:02.200 --> 1:34:04.720 and then you know, but that's what also will bring 1:34:04.840 --> 1:34:06.840 people to the book. I think, you know, give it 1:34:06.880 --> 1:34:09.840 a pulse, you know, does that like does it change 1:34:09.920 --> 1:34:12.000 the lens you're looking him at? Like? Are you looking 1:34:12.040 --> 1:34:14.880 at him? You know through a lens you would have 1:34:14.920 --> 1:34:16.920 looked at him twenty years ago? Are you like I 1:34:17.000 --> 1:34:19.120 ought to be thinking about what he did right here 1:34:19.160 --> 1:34:22.479 a different way. Yeah. I don't think a historian can 1:34:22.560 --> 1:34:28.120 help you know that filter. You know, you have to 1:34:28.160 --> 1:34:32.240 be aware of your time. And I'm sure that like 1:34:32.360 --> 1:34:34.799 for example, Blood and Thunder, if I were writing Blood 1:34:34.800 --> 1:34:37.280 and Thunder today, I would write it differently. I can't 1:34:37.280 --> 1:34:44.880 help it. Times, I don't think I think you allowed 1:34:44.920 --> 1:34:47.720 a lot of people in that book. You allowed a 1:34:47.760 --> 1:34:52.240 lot of people their humanity, and you mostly when in 1:34:52.360 --> 1:34:56.479 that book, when you condemn someone for being inept, it's 1:34:56.560 --> 1:34:59.799 mostly that they were regarded as inept by their peers 1:35:00.240 --> 1:35:03.720 in their own time. You're not, you don't, Like, I'm 1:35:03.760 --> 1:35:06.560 sure you do, Like you can't not look at it 1:35:06.640 --> 1:35:11.960 from now, but um, the people that were assholes did 1:35:12.280 --> 1:35:16.200 things that were often recognized as asshole ish and incompetent 1:35:17.400 --> 1:35:20.160 by their own people. Yeah, like you really do it? 1:35:20.400 --> 1:35:22.640 Like in that project that a very good job of 1:35:22.760 --> 1:35:26.880 helping people understand what was happening at a time. Well, 1:35:26.960 --> 1:35:28.840 I think, and I think that's like I don't know 1:35:28.960 --> 1:35:31.519 how And I would guess if you if you take 1:35:31.560 --> 1:35:35.280 on a Cook and be like, okay, listen, at the time, 1:35:36.920 --> 1:35:39.960 this is ship that was going on, right, you know, 1:35:40.120 --> 1:35:41.800 and and let's just talk about what happened at the 1:35:41.800 --> 1:35:43.120 time and what people felt at the time, and then 1:35:43.160 --> 1:35:45.800 you can now go and interpret that. But like, at 1:35:45.880 --> 1:35:47.960 the moment, this is what the world looked like, right. 1:35:48.520 --> 1:35:52.800 And the other problem with with uh Captain Cook is 1:35:53.320 --> 1:35:57.360 his story. You know, he had three voyages. Each one 1:35:57.520 --> 1:35:59.960 was everybod as big as the other one. There They're 1:36:00.160 --> 1:36:04.080 just all very consequential and sprawling, And I realized I 1:36:04.120 --> 1:36:08.559 couldn't I couldn't do like a big biography of Captain Cook. 1:36:08.680 --> 1:36:11.360 That's not what I wanted to do. I had decided 1:36:11.760 --> 1:36:13.960 and my wife actually was was the one who said, 1:36:13.960 --> 1:36:17.840 you gotta pick one voyage, and I decided I'm going 1:36:17.880 --> 1:36:22.200 to focus on the third voyage because for a lot 1:36:22.240 --> 1:36:25.400 of different reasons. But it has this amazing murder story 1:36:25.920 --> 1:36:29.200 in the middle of it, said in a y And 1:36:29.360 --> 1:36:33.320 not only that, but it also happens you know, it's 1:36:33.400 --> 1:36:36.519 it's the most American, and I'm an American writer. This 1:36:36.640 --> 1:36:39.160 is the most American of the three voyages because it 1:36:39.800 --> 1:36:44.479 happens in July. It starts in July seventy six. It 1:36:44.560 --> 1:36:52.400 happens during the American Revolution. Uh. He discovers or rediscovers Hawaii, 1:36:52.680 --> 1:36:57.280 he charged the coast of Alaska, and he um after 1:36:57.360 --> 1:37:00.639 he dies, the voyage uh ends up in the hands 1:37:00.920 --> 1:37:04.519 of a Virginia, Virginia born American guy named John Gore 1:37:04.600 --> 1:37:08.800 who who captains the vessels home. So it's it's an 1:37:08.800 --> 1:37:11.640 American story in a lot of ways. Um. And so 1:37:11.800 --> 1:37:13.680 that's that's one part of it. The other part of 1:37:13.720 --> 1:37:18.600 it is, Um, there's something wrong with Captain Cook on 1:37:18.720 --> 1:37:22.280 the third voyage. All his scholars and all the kind 1:37:22.320 --> 1:37:24.720 of cook nerds out there are trying to figure out 1:37:24.760 --> 1:37:29.040 what's wrong with them the psychologically, psychologically, he's cruel. He's 1:37:29.120 --> 1:37:31.519 he's using the lash. He's being very cruel to his 1:37:31.600 --> 1:37:34.360 own people. He's cruel to the indigenous people he encounters 1:37:34.479 --> 1:37:36.960 in ways that were not true. How long have you been? 1:37:37.320 --> 1:37:39.200 How long have you been at it? By this point, 1:37:40.640 --> 1:37:43.360 the three voyages were Um, you know, he'd been doing 1:37:43.400 --> 1:37:46.519 it for about twelve years, doing this kind of voyaging. 1:37:46.800 --> 1:37:49.280 But he'd been in the navy for a long time. 1:37:49.640 --> 1:37:55.040 He was late forties when the expedition started. He was tired. Uh. 1:37:55.120 --> 1:37:58.400 He speculated that he had some kind of weird parasite 1:37:58.400 --> 1:38:00.560 from eating some bizarre food. You know what I was 1:38:00.560 --> 1:38:04.920 gonna say. He had cat scratch fever, probably kind of food. 1:38:04.960 --> 1:38:07.960 You guys talk about to plasm we've been we've been 1:38:08.040 --> 1:38:13.760 exploring lately. Um, all these there's latent toxoplasmosis. It's like 1:38:14.040 --> 1:38:17.360 a parasite doesn't sound good. Well, just all these links 1:38:17.439 --> 1:38:24.439 between irrational, um reckless behavior and people who have suffered 1:38:24.600 --> 1:38:30.160 like increased entrepreneurial ship, increase auto accidents with people who 1:38:30.200 --> 1:38:33.320 suffer from toxoplasmosis. So the minute you said that he 1:38:33.439 --> 1:38:36.720 was that he was behaving erratically, that's from my mind. Well, 1:38:36.840 --> 1:38:39.800 and an interesting cook. One of his attributes everyone talks 1:38:39.800 --> 1:38:42.000 about it is that he would eat anything and he 1:38:42.040 --> 1:38:44.599 would get you know what, whatever culture he was encountering, 1:38:44.800 --> 1:38:46.800 he would he would he would break bread with them 1:38:46.840 --> 1:38:49.280 and eat whatever they're eating. And a lot of his 1:38:49.360 --> 1:38:51.519 officers will go, God, I'm not eating that thing whatever, 1:38:51.640 --> 1:38:54.720 whatever it is. Uh kind of food you guys eat routinely. Uh. 1:38:55.760 --> 1:38:58.360 He he had an iron stomach and he would eat anything. 1:38:58.439 --> 1:39:02.080 But apparently something got whatever it was, I guess we'll 1:39:02.120 --> 1:39:05.320 never know. Like it was pronounced enough that people wonder 1:39:05.360 --> 1:39:09.000 if he didn't. It's beyond a bad mood, right. No, 1:39:09.520 --> 1:39:12.479 every his officers wrote about it, you know, all the 1:39:12.600 --> 1:39:15.800 all the the serious cook scholars, you know, from the 1:39:16.080 --> 1:39:19.320 eighteen hundreds on wrote about it. Something was wrong on 1:39:19.400 --> 1:39:23.320 the third voyage, and the old standby of syphilis hasn't 1:39:23.640 --> 1:39:28.439 gotten probably not because you know, I mean, I'm still 1:39:28.479 --> 1:39:31.760 open minded do this, but I think, um, everyone says 1:39:31.800 --> 1:39:35.240 that he never got it on with with any of 1:39:35.280 --> 1:39:38.439 the native I mean, believe me, all his men were 1:39:39.320 --> 1:39:41.640 and that's another issue that was going on. They were 1:39:41.640 --> 1:39:45.800 spreading syphilis all over the South seas. Um, and it 1:39:45.880 --> 1:39:48.160 was it was sad, it was pitiful, it was happening. 1:39:48.200 --> 1:39:50.640 But but Cook was married and apparently was loyal to 1:39:50.720 --> 1:39:54.519 his wife and didn't partake. Um. I'm still looking for 1:39:55.320 --> 1:40:00.280 evidence to the contrary, but um apparently, um he well, 1:40:00.520 --> 1:40:02.559 I suppose he could have had syphilis, you know, prior 1:40:02.640 --> 1:40:05.400 to even being married. Um. You know, syphilis is a 1:40:05.520 --> 1:40:09.200 very weird disease and uh manifests itself in a lot 1:40:09.280 --> 1:40:14.240 of different ways. But um no, syphilis usually is not 1:40:14.560 --> 1:40:18.160 one of the ones that that is, you know, listed 1:40:18.200 --> 1:40:20.559 as one of the culprits here. But anyway, something's going 1:40:20.600 --> 1:40:22.200 on with Cook, So that makes an answer kind of 1:40:22.240 --> 1:40:25.559 creates a little bit of a mystery to the story. Uh. 1:40:26.200 --> 1:40:29.479 As he moves through his voyage and when he by 1:40:29.520 --> 1:40:33.000 the time he gets to Hawaii, um he he's not 1:40:33.200 --> 1:40:36.960 his usual prudent self who knows how to negotiate, and 1:40:37.400 --> 1:40:40.320 you know, he pisces off a lot of people on 1:40:40.439 --> 1:40:45.200 the Big Island and uh you know, ultimately it leads 1:40:45.240 --> 1:40:50.080 to this kind of passion play on the shores of 1:40:50.200 --> 1:40:53.720 the Big Island where uh you know that's been dissected 1:40:53.760 --> 1:40:55.840 by a lot of different people, including the Hawaiians. And 1:40:55.880 --> 1:40:57.800 this is the other part, a rough sketch of what 1:40:57.880 --> 1:40:59.880 happened that day. I want to know if I looked 1:40:59.880 --> 1:41:06.960 at spot Yeah, well, um, so, uh, the Hawaiians, I 1:41:07.040 --> 1:41:09.240 have to go back a little bit, because so he 1:41:09.320 --> 1:41:12.640 had been on the Big Island for a number of 1:41:12.720 --> 1:41:15.160 weeks and had been treated like a king, had been 1:41:15.160 --> 1:41:18.400 treated almost like a deity. In fact, that's that's a 1:41:18.439 --> 1:41:21.200 whole Another issue is that perhaps the Hawaiians thought he 1:41:21.320 --> 1:41:25.320 was this god named Lano. Um what is that is that? 1:41:25.479 --> 1:41:26.840 Can you can you speak about that for a second? 1:41:26.920 --> 1:41:30.960 Is that connected to the way he approached the island 1:41:31.000 --> 1:41:33.200 and then sailed around the island a couple of times. 1:41:33.320 --> 1:41:36.080 And yeah, he's sort of fulfilled a prophecy in some 1:41:36.160 --> 1:41:39.160 of the y's exactly he sailed. He sailed in a 1:41:39.280 --> 1:41:42.840 clockwise fashion around the Big Island. And uh, there was 1:41:42.880 --> 1:41:46.519 this tradition and Hawaiian culture that Lana would come and 1:41:46.600 --> 1:41:49.280 during this particular season that happened to be right when 1:41:49.360 --> 1:41:54.760 Cook arrived. Um, they they either treated him thought he 1:41:54.880 --> 1:41:58.120 was Lana or they thought he was a manifestation of Lano. Uh, 1:41:58.960 --> 1:42:03.840 this is endlessly to baited. But nonetheless he came ashore 1:42:03.960 --> 1:42:06.760 and was treated truly like a god. I mean they 1:42:06.920 --> 1:42:08.840 rolled out the red carpet and and and his men 1:42:08.920 --> 1:42:11.439 were treated so well for about a month, and it 1:42:11.560 --> 1:42:14.479 was this huge celebration going on that he was there, 1:42:14.640 --> 1:42:18.120 and he was there. But then when he came time 1:42:18.160 --> 1:42:23.000 to leave to go back to Alaska, um, to pursue 1:42:23.360 --> 1:42:25.759 pursue this. The reason that he was going to Alaska 1:42:25.880 --> 1:42:29.040 was to find a passage to the Atlantic Ocean, like 1:42:29.280 --> 1:42:34.760 a Northwest passage obviously doesn't exist or didn't exist. Um, 1:42:35.439 --> 1:42:38.439 but uh, so he's going back to Alaska. And about 1:42:38.760 --> 1:42:42.920 two days after leaving Hawaii, Uh, he encounters a storm 1:42:43.080 --> 1:42:47.400 and one of his masked snaps and he has to 1:42:47.520 --> 1:42:50.840 turn around and go back to Hawaii to find some 1:42:51.680 --> 1:42:55.880 would uh you know, replace his mast. Also, he I 1:42:55.920 --> 1:42:57.880 didn't know he went back on such a flimsy not 1:42:57.960 --> 1:43:00.280 a flimsy premise, but it was like a freak Yeah. 1:43:00.400 --> 1:43:02.160 And this time they were like, well, what are you 1:43:02.200 --> 1:43:09.040 doing here? Lano? But uh, is it plausible that he 1:43:09.040 --> 1:43:13.479 would have never gone back to Hawaii? Like yes, like 1:43:13.600 --> 1:43:15.920 his future plans like he may have never he might 1:43:16.040 --> 1:43:18.439 if that thing had snapped, he might not have been there. Ever, 1:43:19.439 --> 1:43:22.000 very plausible, and it was. The plan was to go 1:43:22.439 --> 1:43:24.679 go back to Alaska and try to find the Northwest 1:43:24.680 --> 1:43:28.439 Passage and then go home after that to England. But uh, 1:43:28.760 --> 1:43:31.040 but when he comes back, everything is different. They they're like, 1:43:31.280 --> 1:43:34.880 you can't be a god. You know, God's ships, masks 1:43:35.000 --> 1:43:37.800 don't break. What are you doing here? Maybe you're just 1:43:37.920 --> 1:43:40.519 you know, here to steal our stuff. You want our 1:43:40.560 --> 1:43:43.960 water and our wood and our women and our food, 1:43:44.360 --> 1:43:48.160 our hogs and uh they it was pronounced. It was 1:43:48.200 --> 1:43:51.639 like a totally different environment. And uh. Within a couple 1:43:51.640 --> 1:43:56.120 of days, Um, some Hawaiians stole uh one of his 1:43:56.360 --> 1:43:59.439 smaller boats, a cutter. Uh and those these cutters were 1:43:59.479 --> 1:44:01.600 very important part of their expedition. And so he was. 1:44:02.080 --> 1:44:05.120 He was angry, and he came ashore cooked did to 1:44:05.320 --> 1:44:08.400 try to find the boat, and in the course of things, 1:44:08.520 --> 1:44:11.840 he kidnapped. But he physically goes on the beach. He 1:44:11.920 --> 1:44:15.600 physically did it. Yes, just going crazy. You know, you 1:44:15.680 --> 1:44:18.560 think he would have got one of his officers or 1:44:18.640 --> 1:44:20.200 you know, one of the marines or something to go 1:44:20.280 --> 1:44:24.000 do this. He personally did it. And he kidnapped this chief, 1:44:24.120 --> 1:44:26.519 the chief of the Big Island, pretty much the highest 1:44:26.600 --> 1:44:32.320 ranking uh figure. He kidnapped him and tried to force 1:44:32.400 --> 1:44:34.960 him on back on to the ship. The idea was 1:44:35.040 --> 1:44:39.040 that they would they would hold him until they got 1:44:39.120 --> 1:44:41.120 their boat back. You know, he's going to take them 1:44:41.600 --> 1:44:44.960 and you know as hostage. Well, some of the warriors 1:44:45.320 --> 1:44:46.920 saw what was going on. They didn't like what was 1:44:46.960 --> 1:44:52.200 going on, and they started to uh uh resist and 1:44:52.680 --> 1:44:56.040 wouldn't let their chief come aboard the ship. And um, 1:44:56.280 --> 1:44:59.560 things escalated, and you know there's certainly language differences in 1:44:59.640 --> 1:45:03.800 culture differences and misques and misunderstandings. And Cook fired a 1:45:03.840 --> 1:45:07.719 shot in the air. Um, and then uh he fired 1:45:07.760 --> 1:45:11.280 a shot at a native and killed a Native Hawaiian. 1:45:11.320 --> 1:45:15.120 And then uh, very soon thereafter, a hatchet ends up 1:45:15.560 --> 1:45:18.080 between his shoulder blades and he drowns in about a 1:45:18.120 --> 1:45:21.720 foot of water at on at the bay there k 1:45:21.840 --> 1:45:24.960 l a q K bay where you were fishing apparently, um, 1:45:25.840 --> 1:45:28.200 and uh you know there's a monument there still. Um. 1:45:28.280 --> 1:45:31.560 It was actually declared when a little brief area of 1:45:31.680 --> 1:45:36.360 that around where the killing happened is still technically British soil. 1:45:37.680 --> 1:45:39.599 It's so kind of a weird thing. I don't fully 1:45:39.680 --> 1:45:42.560 understand how that's possible, but uh, it's you know a 1:45:42.640 --> 1:45:45.640 lot of people go there. It's a monument too to 1:45:45.800 --> 1:45:48.640 what happened. But also you know the British presence. You know, 1:45:48.720 --> 1:45:52.000 it used to be a British possession, the Sandwich Islands 1:45:52.040 --> 1:45:56.000 that was called um and so it's kind of you know, 1:45:56.200 --> 1:45:58.720 I've I've been reading history stuff for a long time. 1:45:58.760 --> 1:46:00.760 I never I didn't know that the Sandwich Islands or 1:46:00.800 --> 1:46:04.240 Hawaiian I only I remember like putting it together, like, oh, 1:46:04.600 --> 1:46:07.400 that's that is well. Cook named him that because the 1:46:07.479 --> 1:46:11.880 great uh, the great advocate for all of his explorations, 1:46:12.080 --> 1:46:16.160 was the first Lord of the Admiralty, Lord Sandwich, and 1:46:16.280 --> 1:46:20.840 Lord Sandwich was the inventor of the sandwich. He was 1:46:20.920 --> 1:46:22.920 real busy all the time and he didn't have time 1:46:22.960 --> 1:46:24.639 to eat, so he just took two pieces of bread 1:46:24.640 --> 1:46:26.800 and put a piece of beef between him and stuck 1:46:26.840 --> 1:46:29.160 it in his mouth and became known as the sandwich. 1:46:29.200 --> 1:46:33.200 I'm not kidding, um, but anyway, Um, that's that's the 1:46:33.200 --> 1:46:36.679 book I'm writing now, and it's about two thirds almost 1:46:36.720 --> 1:46:39.880 three quarters done, probably come out late next year. Tell 1:46:39.920 --> 1:46:42.920 me about the character is the explain what's going on 1:46:43.040 --> 1:46:45.280 with your with your story you have about the guy 1:46:45.439 --> 1:46:48.439 my okay? Is that part of that's not part of 1:46:48.479 --> 1:46:50.400 the book. It is part of the book. It's just 1:46:50.479 --> 1:46:53.600 kind of like an early excerpt from the book, but 1:46:53.840 --> 1:46:56.559 also turned into its own thing. It's it's a kind 1:46:56.600 --> 1:46:58.559 of a story that I've carved out of the book. 1:46:59.200 --> 1:47:04.640 Um and uh it's just recently been published by Scripted Originals, 1:47:04.800 --> 1:47:07.160 which is a new new thing. It's kind of an 1:47:07.200 --> 1:47:13.639 interesting long form digital deal that uh that I've just discovered. 1:47:13.720 --> 1:47:16.200 I love, I love doing this piece for them. Um. 1:47:16.439 --> 1:47:18.719 So the piece is called The Exotic and it's about 1:47:18.760 --> 1:47:23.599 this young man named my who uh came to England 1:47:23.800 --> 1:47:27.320 as part of Cook's second voyage and was the first 1:47:27.400 --> 1:47:32.000 Polynesian ever to arrive on um on English shores. He 1:47:32.120 --> 1:47:34.760 was Cook took him, Yes he was. He was a 1:47:34.880 --> 1:47:38.960 Tahitian man, a young man who became this uh cause 1:47:39.040 --> 1:47:43.519 celeb in in England. He he just took that country 1:47:43.560 --> 1:47:46.800 by storm. They loved him. And uh it's really about 1:47:47.040 --> 1:47:50.240 his two years in England and how this noble savage 1:47:50.280 --> 1:47:52.640 as they called him, um, kind of one over the 1:47:52.720 --> 1:47:56.680 nation and the leading thinkers and writers and politicians. He 1:47:56.760 --> 1:48:01.360 met the King of England. Uh, and he was vaccinated 1:48:02.560 --> 1:48:07.880 that this new thing called a vaccination of smallpox. Um. Yeah, 1:48:08.439 --> 1:48:11.160 this was at least the procedure for smallpox was. And 1:48:11.160 --> 1:48:12.920 it was still a little risky. It was still a 1:48:13.000 --> 1:48:17.200 little experimental. But um. Unfortunately, what would happen is that 1:48:17.280 --> 1:48:20.320 English would bring up to that point, it had been 1:48:20.800 --> 1:48:25.000 native Americans and Eskimos into it. They're bringing them to London. 1:48:25.080 --> 1:48:27.760 They want to show him off, prayed him around, you know, 1:48:28.280 --> 1:48:32.280 make impress upon them how powerful England was. But they 1:48:32.280 --> 1:48:36.200 were also genuinely curious about these people, um, and how 1:48:36.320 --> 1:48:38.320 they would do and how they would fare in a 1:48:38.439 --> 1:48:43.080 big city. But almost invariably they would die uh a smallpox. 1:48:43.439 --> 1:48:46.599 It was almost always smallpox. Well, when my got there, 1:48:46.680 --> 1:48:49.160 the King of England, King George the third, said we 1:48:49.240 --> 1:48:51.600 got to get this guy vaccinated, and they did and 1:48:51.720 --> 1:48:54.439 it was successful and because of that he lived for 1:48:54.560 --> 1:48:58.519 this two years. It was healthy. The ladies kind of 1:48:58.560 --> 1:49:02.160 fell in love with him. Um. He ended up being 1:49:02.280 --> 1:49:06.719 this um they like. He became a gentleman, an English gentleman. 1:49:06.800 --> 1:49:12.200 He hunted, he uh uh, learned to play chess and backgammon, 1:49:12.320 --> 1:49:14.640 and we went to all the balls and dances and 1:49:14.680 --> 1:49:17.800 the salons and you know, but people it was kind 1:49:17.800 --> 1:49:20.680 of a mixture of like they were genuinely fascinated by him, 1:49:20.720 --> 1:49:24.080 but they also were studying him, you know, like is 1:49:24.160 --> 1:49:31.000 he really the noble savage? And h He also turned 1:49:31.000 --> 1:49:37.120 out this guy my brought barbecue to England because at 1:49:37.160 --> 1:49:39.960 one point one of the estates where he had been 1:49:40.040 --> 1:49:44.080 hunting um, one of the lords said, well, why don't 1:49:44.320 --> 1:49:47.120 we hear that you cook in this special way down 1:49:47.200 --> 1:49:50.160 in Polynesia. You know, perhaps you could cook these foul 1:49:50.280 --> 1:49:54.040 that they had just shot um in the Polynesian way. 1:49:54.240 --> 1:49:56.600 And he said, well, I would love to. And he 1:49:56.720 --> 1:49:58.400 turned out to be a great cook. You know, you 1:49:58.960 --> 1:50:00.800 dig a hole in the round and you you know, 1:50:00.880 --> 1:50:03.920 you cook cook it in in Uh the Polynesian way 1:50:04.120 --> 1:50:08.640 took in many hours, uh, slow and low, you know, 1:50:08.800 --> 1:50:12.680 lots of smoke, and uh. He they just loved it. 1:50:12.720 --> 1:50:14.439 They loved it so much that everywhere he went they 1:50:14.439 --> 1:50:16.559 asked him to cook for them. He became this kind 1:50:16.560 --> 1:50:19.640 of celebrity chef. You know. But was he was he 1:50:19.680 --> 1:50:22.040 even somebody treated as an equal or was it always 1:50:22.080 --> 1:50:28.559 sort of understood that he was uh like not quite European, yeah, 1:50:29.400 --> 1:50:31.160 uh mixture. I mean, I think a lot of his 1:50:31.640 --> 1:50:35.120 mates on the ship that he had sailed with almost 1:50:35.200 --> 1:50:38.759 viewed him as an equal because he he equitted himself 1:50:38.880 --> 1:50:42.000 very well and on on the ship he was a 1:50:42.040 --> 1:50:44.600 great fisherman, he was he was a great uh just 1:50:44.680 --> 1:50:48.040 someone who understood the ocean. You know, Polynesians are just 1:50:48.840 --> 1:50:52.960 excellent navigators. And you know, I think he was treated 1:50:53.040 --> 1:50:55.800 quite equally, surprisingly so on the ship. But by the 1:50:55.880 --> 1:50:57.080 time we got to England, I think there was this 1:50:57.200 --> 1:51:00.400 mixture of like, yeah, you're fascinating, your interesting, you're a 1:51:00.520 --> 1:51:04.040 prince of some sort, but you're still you're still a 1:51:04.120 --> 1:51:06.960 person of color. You know that you can't you can't 1:51:07.080 --> 1:51:12.360 divorce yourself from the racial views of that time. Um, 1:51:12.960 --> 1:51:15.800 they you know, there was a patronizing quality to the 1:51:15.840 --> 1:51:18.360 way they treated him. There's no way to avoid saying that. 1:51:18.640 --> 1:51:22.360 But but overall I think they did about as they 1:51:22.400 --> 1:51:24.560 treated him, about as well as they could possibly do. 1:51:24.880 --> 1:51:26.840 But and one of the reasons they did it there 1:51:26.920 --> 1:51:32.640 was a kind of a colonial competitive layer to this, 1:51:32.800 --> 1:51:36.639 which is that the English really wanted to take over Tahiti, 1:51:37.720 --> 1:51:39.720 and they wanted to make sure. The French didn't and 1:51:39.800 --> 1:51:42.240 the Spanish didn't, so they wanted to treat this guy 1:51:42.400 --> 1:51:46.519 like an envoy and make him, you know, happy, so 1:51:46.680 --> 1:51:48.559 that they would return him. And that's the second part 1:51:48.600 --> 1:51:51.920 of the story. Is he goes back to Tahiti on 1:51:52.120 --> 1:51:56.000 Captain Cook's third voyage, and he has returned to Tahiti 1:51:56.120 --> 1:51:59.720 with this experience that he's had, this excellent adventure that 1:51:59.800 --> 1:52:03.160 he's been on, and he's returned with all these possessions 1:52:04.000 --> 1:52:07.599 that are so alien to the Tehitians. He's got horses, 1:52:07.720 --> 1:52:11.920 he's he's got goats, he's got sheep, he's got a 1:52:12.040 --> 1:52:16.719 suit of armor. He's got all these guns and you know, muskets, 1:52:16.800 --> 1:52:21.479 and he's got gunpowder and knives and swords and all 1:52:21.520 --> 1:52:23.679 this metal. I mean, they had never seen metal before 1:52:24.640 --> 1:52:28.560 the Europeans had arrived. And it's sets in motion this 1:52:28.880 --> 1:52:32.080 you know, all these jealousies and you know, people are 1:52:32.280 --> 1:52:34.559 trying to figure out who is this guy. My he's 1:52:34.680 --> 1:52:37.880 not actually from a chiefly class. He's actually from a 1:52:37.960 --> 1:52:42.160 kind of a uh land. Listen, He's a nobody basically, 1:52:42.439 --> 1:52:47.000 but he suddenly he thinks he's big stuff and he's 1:52:47.040 --> 1:52:51.800 got all this all these belongings more than any chief. Uh. 1:52:52.439 --> 1:52:55.320 It just drives people crazy. And it's it's really about 1:52:55.760 --> 1:52:59.200 how he returns. And I forgot to mention the whole 1:52:59.280 --> 1:53:02.360 reason got on board Cook's second voyage to go to 1:53:02.439 --> 1:53:07.600 England really the only reason because he wanted guns. He 1:53:07.720 --> 1:53:10.800 wanted to go to war against the people of Bora Bora, 1:53:10.960 --> 1:53:15.560 which was this is a long old, festering kind of 1:53:16.080 --> 1:53:19.400 hatfield and McCoy's situation back back home that he wanted 1:53:19.720 --> 1:53:23.040 he wanted guns so that he could kick ass against 1:53:23.080 --> 1:53:25.240 the horrible runs and and in the end he ultimately 1:53:25.280 --> 1:53:28.040 does that. He fights a battle against them with these 1:53:28.280 --> 1:53:32.160 new things called guns and wins the battle. Uh. So, 1:53:33.080 --> 1:53:36.080 very interesting arc to his story. And I decided to 1:53:36.120 --> 1:53:38.479 kind of carve it out of the bigger book and 1:53:38.560 --> 1:53:42.639 turn it into a uh you know, it's like it's 1:53:42.720 --> 1:53:46.679 like it's like a novella length story, but it will 1:53:46.720 --> 1:53:48.720 go back into the big book. It'll go back into 1:53:48.720 --> 1:53:51.360 the big book with slightly with some differences and changing 1:53:51.400 --> 1:53:53.599 it up a little bit. But yep, So with your work, 1:53:56.120 --> 1:53:59.200 do you always are all your stories optioned out for films? 1:54:00.520 --> 1:54:03.599 Let's see, Well, yeah, all of them have been very 1:54:03.680 --> 1:54:07.120 few of them have gotten made. Ghost Soldiers was turned 1:54:07.120 --> 1:54:09.760 into a movie called The Great Raid that was made 1:54:09.800 --> 1:54:13.800 by a really nice man named Harvey Weinstein. Uh. He 1:54:13.880 --> 1:54:16.479 bought my first book. A wonderful guy. Oh is that right? 1:54:16.680 --> 1:54:19.200 My wife used to work for Oh my gosh, nice great, 1:54:19.240 --> 1:54:24.000 She's got great Harvey story that she does. Wow. Well, anyway, 1:54:24.040 --> 1:54:29.320 it was it was made um into a movie by Mirramax, 1:54:29.880 --> 1:54:33.680 and um, it wasn't great. I didn't do particularly well 1:54:33.800 --> 1:54:36.600 commercially or happy with it. I was happy with the 1:54:36.720 --> 1:54:40.480 historical accuracy of it. But it just didn't work, you know, 1:54:40.560 --> 1:54:43.680 I was there's some casting problems. I think maybe maybe 1:54:43.720 --> 1:54:46.080 they got the wrong director or something something about it 1:54:46.200 --> 1:54:50.480 wasn't quite right. It had James Franco uh, and it 1:54:50.600 --> 1:54:55.760 had actually an excellent cast. Um, but somehow on the 1:54:56.000 --> 1:54:59.520 end they it just didn't work. Uh. Did you get 1:54:59.560 --> 1:55:04.280 it way in on the historical accuracy of the actual film? Yes, yes, 1:55:04.360 --> 1:55:06.560 And I mean they actually wanted me to like it. 1:55:06.800 --> 1:55:10.120 They wanted me to vet it, and they actually flew 1:55:10.200 --> 1:55:13.120 me to the set, which unfortunately, it wasn't filmed in 1:55:13.160 --> 1:55:15.120 the Philippines, which is where it needed to be. It 1:55:15.200 --> 1:55:18.320 was filmed in Australia. So I went to Australia and 1:55:18.360 --> 1:55:20.480 I went to the set and they happened to be 1:55:20.720 --> 1:55:23.600 fighting that night. You know, it was nights night filming, 1:55:24.320 --> 1:55:27.160 and there was explosions and grenades and flares and all 1:55:27.200 --> 1:55:30.080 this stuff going on, and all of a sudden, this kangaroo, 1:55:31.280 --> 1:55:35.320 terrified hops across the camera, uh, in front of the camera, 1:55:36.040 --> 1:55:38.680 and the director has to say, you know, cut because 1:55:38.680 --> 1:55:41.960 there weren't any kangaroos in the Philippines. Um. But uh, 1:55:42.240 --> 1:55:45.480 but you know it was it was you know, like 1:55:45.600 --> 1:55:48.400 I said, I was happy with the historical accuracy. In 1:55:48.440 --> 1:55:51.280 the end, they listened to me and they tried and 1:55:51.720 --> 1:55:55.040 it was a decent uh movie. I call it the 1:55:55.120 --> 1:56:00.240 perfectly good rate, not the great rate. But went to 1:56:00.400 --> 1:56:02.440 in the Philippines that went to where where's the there's 1:56:02.440 --> 1:56:04.600 a ton memorial. I can't remember where I went, but 1:56:04.640 --> 1:56:07.400 I went to in the Philippines too. Yeah. I mean 1:56:07.480 --> 1:56:11.360 it's a huge event still memorialized, and it would have 1:56:11.360 --> 1:56:13.280 been cool to film it there, man. Yeah, it would 1:56:13.320 --> 1:56:15.280 have been. It would have been amazing. And that's that. 1:56:15.480 --> 1:56:17.120 That was one of the weaknesses I think of the 1:56:17.240 --> 1:56:19.920 film is that you can just somehow tell it's not 1:56:20.080 --> 1:56:24.320 the Philippines. You know, other stuff has been optioned. Um, 1:56:24.840 --> 1:56:26.960 the most interesting thing is Blood and Thunder. I mean 1:56:27.080 --> 1:56:30.880 there's just something about that book that people have just constantly. 1:56:31.440 --> 1:56:34.200 It's like when one group tries to make it and fails, 1:56:34.240 --> 1:56:36.920 then another group comes on board, and you know, I 1:56:37.000 --> 1:56:41.560 think it's too big and sprawling and ultimately controversial as 1:56:41.680 --> 1:56:44.200 story for people to figure out how to track it. 1:56:44.560 --> 1:56:47.840 It's like how you really can't do um, no one, 1:56:47.960 --> 1:56:52.320 like no one's really done, like Lewis and Clark expedition, right, Like, 1:56:52.400 --> 1:56:54.840 you can't. You're right, you can't. It's just I think 1:56:55.080 --> 1:56:57.520 I think it's I guarantee right now someone's working on 1:56:57.560 --> 1:57:01.440 that some bitch. Yeah, always know won't work out. Undonted 1:57:01.560 --> 1:57:05.120 Courage has probably been optioned twenty times, you know. Um yeah, 1:57:05.120 --> 1:57:08.560 I can see like how you'd have to, Yeah, you 1:57:08.720 --> 1:57:10.560 have the find for kick Cars. You have to find 1:57:10.640 --> 1:57:13.800 some like micro type event, you know. Yeah, I think 1:57:13.840 --> 1:57:16.760 you have to or or make it sprawl into a series, 1:57:16.840 --> 1:57:18.800 which is the group that's doing it trying to do 1:57:18.880 --> 1:57:21.280 it now is the same people who did Game of Thrones. 1:57:22.000 --> 1:57:25.440 You can imagine that just take out the dragons and 1:57:26.000 --> 1:57:28.720 and uh, you know, turn it into it's like this 1:57:28.960 --> 1:57:31.640 story of all these kingdoms all fighting over the same 1:57:32.360 --> 1:57:37.640 you know, trying to trying to you know, survive this. 1:57:38.000 --> 1:57:41.520 You know, it's it's a very similar story. Actually. Um, 1:57:41.720 --> 1:57:44.560 the group that's trying to do it now, it's interesting. 1:57:44.640 --> 1:57:46.960 But at first the first person who optioned it with Spielberg, 1:57:47.640 --> 1:57:49.800 tried to make it into a movie. Didn't work for him, 1:57:50.160 --> 1:57:52.200 and then it was Robert Redford, and then then it 1:57:52.280 --> 1:57:57.440 was Ridley Scott. Uh. Pretty cool. Every time I get 1:57:57.520 --> 1:58:00.720 very excited, and then of course it just somehow didn't 1:58:00.760 --> 1:58:03.680 work in the end. So we'll see what this new 1:58:03.760 --> 1:58:06.320 group is able to do. It'll be interesting to see. 1:58:06.480 --> 1:58:10.520 You know. The first meeting I had with anyone around 1:58:10.600 --> 1:58:13.880 like television and film and stuff, the first serious meeting 1:58:13.920 --> 1:58:16.080 I had was around like having a project in minn 1:58:16.120 --> 1:58:18.720 option And I always remember. The woman's name was Gloria. 1:58:19.280 --> 1:58:21.080 We're sitting in a room like this, a bunch of people, 1:58:21.680 --> 1:58:24.160 and she said, first off, I just want to say that, um, 1:58:24.920 --> 1:58:31.320 nothing ever gets done. It's impossible with that. Let's get started. Yeah, 1:58:31.360 --> 1:58:34.600 I mean I couldn't figure out why when the oscars 1:58:35.080 --> 1:58:37.640 happened there, you know, and somebody wins, and they're just 1:58:37.840 --> 1:58:42.200 all this exaggerated excitement, like, oh gosh, you know, it's 1:58:42.240 --> 1:58:45.760 so exciting, and they're just freaking out on stage. I 1:58:45.760 --> 1:58:48.360 always thought it was because they were just incredibly self obsessed, 1:58:48.520 --> 1:58:52.160 narcissistic people, which they are. But the reason there that 1:58:52.240 --> 1:58:55.120 way is because it was truly a miracle that the 1:58:55.200 --> 1:58:57.000 thing got made and that it was good and then 1:58:57.040 --> 1:58:59.440 it actually won an award. I mean, it's like, there's 1:58:59.480 --> 1:59:04.160 so many reasons why films fail, especially films about, you know, 1:59:04.440 --> 1:59:08.720 complicated historical subjects. Um. I think I've mentioned this quote 1:59:08.760 --> 1:59:10.839 in the past, but who's the you know, John lockra 1:59:10.960 --> 1:59:15.000 is how he says in The Intrigue Like Espionage, he 1:59:15.160 --> 1:59:19.520 described having his books turned into movies. He described it 1:59:19.600 --> 1:59:26.800 as watching an oxen turned into a bullion cube. That's great. Uh, 1:59:27.240 --> 1:59:28.920 well they always say that, uh, And I think it 1:59:29.000 --> 1:59:31.320 was Hemmingway who said it that you're supposed to the 1:59:31.400 --> 1:59:33.720 writer of the book is supposed to drive to the 1:59:34.320 --> 1:59:37.800 California Nevada border in the middle of the night, and 1:59:37.920 --> 1:59:40.760 the Hollywood guys show up on the California side, and 1:59:40.920 --> 1:59:44.280 you go into your trunk and you hurl your manuscript 1:59:44.360 --> 1:59:46.440 over the border, and then they go to their trunk 1:59:46.480 --> 1:59:50.160 and they hurl the money at you, and then the 1:59:50.200 --> 1:59:52.640 two cars just turned around and drive away and they 1:59:52.720 --> 1:59:56.600 never never meet. That's probably the smartest way to do it, 1:59:56.680 --> 1:59:58.840 because it would be a lot less heartache and a 1:59:58.920 --> 2:00:04.400 lot less U frustration. Yeah. Uh, well, maybe he'll be 2:00:04.440 --> 2:00:08.000 a big Captain cook blockbuster. Hey, real quick, when when 2:00:08.040 --> 2:00:10.440 you're when this does happen? Um, who's gonna who should 2:00:10.440 --> 2:00:15.160 play Captain Cook? Just give us an idea? Who should 2:00:15.160 --> 2:00:20.320 play captain? Like cag to you? Who's Captain cook Man? 2:00:20.360 --> 2:00:24.840 How old was when he died? Uh? He was or fifty? 2:00:24.960 --> 2:00:26.760 I guess I should know that off the top of 2:00:26.840 --> 2:00:28.600 my head, but I don't haven't gotten to that part yet. 2:00:28.640 --> 2:00:33.360 Who should That's a very good question. Is too old? 2:00:33.680 --> 2:00:36.880 You know? He was a very tall um and very 2:00:36.960 --> 2:00:41.840 severe looking guy. Um with an intense gaze, a very 2:00:41.920 --> 2:00:49.080 large nose. Um. Rick Moran is not gonna do it? 2:00:49.680 --> 2:00:51.440 That's a very good question. I haven't thought of that. 2:00:51.760 --> 2:00:54.440 But and in fact, that's another one that has not 2:00:54.600 --> 2:00:56.680 been done. You'd think there'd be a lot of cook 2:00:56.760 --> 2:01:00.720 movies out there, there really aren't has been done. I 2:01:00.760 --> 2:01:05.560 don't know. I think it's maybe way back days. But yeah, 2:01:06.000 --> 2:01:08.040 so when could people why could people see a new 2:01:08.080 --> 2:01:11.080 book come out, the one on cook You haven't even 2:01:11.080 --> 2:01:12.800 finished it yet, but I mean it'll be a while, right, 2:01:12.960 --> 2:01:16.280 it'll be late at the very earliest, will be the 2:01:16.480 --> 2:01:20.080 end of next year, around Christmas time. And uh. The 2:01:20.200 --> 2:01:23.600 tentative title is The Resolution, which was the name of 2:01:23.720 --> 2:01:27.560 his ship, the Resolution, um man, the British knew how 2:01:27.600 --> 2:01:31.720 to name ships, you know, the endeavor, Discovery, you know, uh, 2:01:32.360 --> 2:01:35.160 and this and this one, you know, the Resolution, which 2:01:35.200 --> 2:01:39.200 has got so many layers of meaning, including the resolution 2:01:39.280 --> 2:01:41.840 of his story, his life story. That's a good point, man. 2:01:42.320 --> 2:01:45.920 So that's why read that comes out? Well maybe maybe 2:01:46.360 --> 2:01:47.960 in fte me back on here and we'll talk like 2:01:48.000 --> 2:01:50.160 those people that when the new Harry Potter book was 2:01:50.200 --> 2:01:52.040 coming out, They're like line up at the bookstore. I'm 2:01:52.040 --> 2:01:54.240 gonna be out waiting to get that book because I 2:01:54.280 --> 2:01:56.720 need to find out did they at them? Did not 2:01:56.880 --> 2:01:59.920 at them? Well? We will, I mean, because I am 2:02:00.000 --> 2:02:03.960 from Memphis, and you know, we consider ourselves the barbecue 2:02:04.000 --> 2:02:06.520 capital of the world. We we we probably will have 2:02:06.640 --> 2:02:10.080 some barbecue recipes in the back, you know, like dry 2:02:10.160 --> 2:02:13.880 rub of European you know, or you know, different recipes. Um, 2:02:14.200 --> 2:02:17.360 it's it's you know. The the Liyons insist that he 2:02:17.480 --> 2:02:20.280 was not actually eaten, but he was, in fact, Um, 2:02:21.960 --> 2:02:26.520 he in fact was dismembered and cooked, baked and uh 2:02:26.920 --> 2:02:31.560 and uh uh when his remains were presented to the 2:02:32.880 --> 2:02:36.200 to the English who are still waiting in that bay 2:02:36.440 --> 2:02:39.880 waiting for something, uh, they only they brought him a 2:02:40.000 --> 2:02:44.320 thigh bone and part of his hand, and uh, some 2:02:44.480 --> 2:02:47.920 of his scalp and and his hat, and so naturally, 2:02:48.240 --> 2:02:50.480 so naturally the British thought, well, may they must have 2:02:50.520 --> 2:02:53.440 eaten him? Uh, And they just said, you guys don't 2:02:53.480 --> 2:03:00.960 have to worry about that parasite anymore. Remember uh, Nathaniel 2:03:01.000 --> 2:03:04.280 Philbricks in the Heart of the Sea. So the story 2:03:04.320 --> 2:03:06.840 of the tragic the Whaleship Essex and the book, um, 2:03:07.120 --> 2:03:09.520 you know, they get to eating each other. And there's 2:03:09.520 --> 2:03:11.240 a part of the book later where I don't know 2:03:11.240 --> 2:03:13.560 if it's like apocryphal story or not, but there's a 2:03:13.600 --> 2:03:16.320 part of the book later where someone meets a survivor 2:03:17.360 --> 2:03:19.320 of the whaleship Essex and he says like, hey, did 2:03:19.360 --> 2:03:22.640 you know Bill Johnson? I suppose you the guy says 2:03:22.680 --> 2:03:30.640 no him. I had him. Oh my, Well, well thanks 2:03:30.680 --> 2:03:33.320 for coming on, man, Um, I'm looking forward to your 2:03:33.520 --> 2:03:35.480 I see, I gotta go. I gotta read your whole 2:03:35.560 --> 2:03:39.520 damn cannon man, your whole damn library. Well please do 2:03:39.800 --> 2:03:42.520 and keep talking about it on your show. Well it's 2:03:42.600 --> 2:03:50.240 like it's yeah, um, it's just such well researched, un 2:03:50.720 --> 2:03:56.920 bullshitty history that like has all like this has like 2:03:57.000 --> 2:04:00.960 the weird parts. Man, you didn't know you got like 2:04:01.040 --> 2:04:04.320 a good ear for the weird, you know what I mean, 2:04:04.480 --> 2:04:06.000 Like and you wedge it in where it doesn't just 2:04:06.040 --> 2:04:08.800 feel like you're being um, you wedge it in where 2:04:08.800 --> 2:04:11.160 it doesn't smell like someone just trying to wedge weird 2:04:11.240 --> 2:04:13.600 stuff in. Like if it's still you find a way 2:04:13.600 --> 2:04:15.320 to like make it fit, you know. But you got 2:04:15.440 --> 2:04:18.400 an ear for the strange. Well, thank you. I I'll 2:04:18.440 --> 2:04:22.720 take that as a compliment, the highest compliment. Maybe it's 2:04:22.760 --> 2:04:25.840 just that I'm a little strange, and I do think 2:04:25.880 --> 2:04:28.600 that it's true that you know, uh, history is so 2:04:28.800 --> 2:04:32.920 much more interesting. Uh then then we were taught in school, 2:04:33.080 --> 2:04:35.640 you know, like there are these just undercurrents in these 2:04:36.800 --> 2:04:43.040 bizarre facts and little trip little trick doors and and interconnections. 2:04:43.360 --> 2:04:48.400 Uh that um, we somehow missed in history class. Um 2:04:48.880 --> 2:04:52.000 because in the class you couldn't spend an entire semester 2:04:52.240 --> 2:04:55.400 on a day. Yeah, you know, you just have to 2:04:55.480 --> 2:04:57.600 gloss over and it takes on this way that just 2:04:57.800 --> 2:05:02.600 feels not personal. True, So true. Well, good luck finishing 2:05:02.680 --> 2:05:05.400 your book, Thank you, thank you. I gotta probably I 2:05:05.400 --> 2:05:07.480 should be working on it right now. I'm a little behind. 2:05:07.720 --> 2:05:09.440 COVID has kind of slowed me down a little bit. 2:05:10.680 --> 2:05:12.720 I don't mean that I had COVID. I just mean 2:05:13.560 --> 2:05:15.280 I couldn't do a lot of the research. Have you 2:05:15.280 --> 2:05:17.240 got a lot of your travel done? Now? A lot 2:05:17.280 --> 2:05:19.600 of it. I still got a lot more to go though. Um. 2:05:20.040 --> 2:05:21.600 And you know I may not get to some of 2:05:21.640 --> 2:05:24.440 the places, which kind of just drives me nuts. But 2:05:24.720 --> 2:05:27.360 uh yeah, you just can't go to all the places 2:05:27.520 --> 2:05:30.440 where Cook went, even on just this one voyage. Lets 2:05:30.440 --> 2:05:33.360 go hang out and cook inlet in Alaska. I've been 2:05:33.400 --> 2:05:35.880 there before, but I need to I need to go back. 2:05:36.120 --> 2:05:38.560 I need to go back. So um, and you've got 2:05:38.680 --> 2:05:40.400 you You've got a connection to Alaska, don't you have? 2:05:40.920 --> 2:05:43.440 My brother has been there decades now, and you have 2:05:43.600 --> 2:05:45.680 some sort of shack up there right, Yeah, we have 2:05:45.760 --> 2:05:49.680 a place out there. Yea. He lives on cooking, let you, 2:05:49.800 --> 2:05:53.320 meaning lives an anchorage, but ars checks fars off therea. 2:05:54.160 --> 2:05:55.720 Well thanks again, we'd love to have be back on. 2:05:55.880 --> 2:05:58.840 But yeah, man, I highly just really highly recommend um 2:06:00.640 --> 2:06:02.560 like your books and the kind of the kind of 2:06:02.640 --> 2:06:04.720 history you do which is just so illuminating. Man. This 2:06:04.800 --> 2:06:11.240 helps you really understand why you know why America or 2:06:11.480 --> 2:06:13.240 you know why things look the way they look, and 2:06:13.440 --> 2:06:15.640 why we remember things the way we remember them, and 2:06:15.760 --> 2:06:20.280 and what sacrifices were made by people. Well, thank you man, 2:06:20.280 --> 2:06:21.600 it's been a pleasure. C