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Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening Hunt podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear

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Speaker 1: for every hunt first like go farther, stay longer. That's

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Speaker 1: the island greeting. Okay, ready, make sure to cut out

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Speaker 1: KLS singing. Joined today by very famous author Hampton Sides Listen.

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Speaker 1: I don't Anthon, I don't want to reduce your I mean,

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Speaker 1: you've written a lot of books, man, but I want

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Speaker 1: to say this Blood and Thunder is a hell of

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Speaker 1: a damn book. Agreed, God, it's a good book. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you. I just reread talking I reread the whole.

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Speaker 1: I was going to like refresh. I was looking through

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Speaker 1: like what I had downloaded on my phone from a

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Speaker 1: way ago. I was like oh, And then I was like, man,

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Speaker 1: I'm wanna get I want to see when you get

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Speaker 1: that guy on the podcast. And I was like, I

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Speaker 1: reread from start to finish. This is such a good book.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, you know what, you probably hate talking

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Speaker 1: about it because you wrote along. You've written so much

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Speaker 1: stuff since then. Uh. No, authors never get tired of

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Speaker 1: talking about their books. Uh it's like a little kid,

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Speaker 1: one of my kids. I love talking about my kids,

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Speaker 1: and especially that one, because it's really about my chosen home.

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Speaker 1: I chose to live in the West. I chose to

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Speaker 1: live in New Mexico, and I wrote that book to

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Speaker 1: try to understand how Santa Fe and New Mexico and

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Speaker 1: the Southwest got to be what it is and what

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Speaker 1: an education it was for me, you know, just to

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Speaker 1: to learn all the stuff and to follow. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's not a biography of Carson, but it uses this

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Speaker 1: guy Kick Carson as the kind of connective tissue to

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Speaker 1: get me through all of this history of of how

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Speaker 1: the American Western a single generation became, uh became part

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Speaker 1: of the United States. Um, all the good, the bad,

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Speaker 1: the ugly, all of it. Dude was like Kick Carson

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Speaker 1: was like Forrest gump Man. He was there for everything.

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Speaker 1: It seems like it's just amazing. Uh. Yeah, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: get into that. We're gonna get into bunt your kind

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Speaker 1: of whole body work. What you're doing now, which I

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Speaker 1: gotta tell you a story, Please do well. You've taken

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Speaker 1: an interest in Captain Cook. Yes, cal and I how

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Speaker 1: many times did we go past where we're trolling for

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Speaker 1: Wahu and Hawaii? I mean we must drove past where

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Speaker 1: he supposed he died ten times? Oh at least yes,

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Speaker 1: on the Big Island. We spear fished out in front

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Speaker 1: of there out there one time. Oh you did. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're like right around that corner, supposed Captain Cooke and that,

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Speaker 1: and that brought us into like speculating, you know, one

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Speaker 1: of those situations where no one really knows what they're

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Speaker 1: talking about. We're all talking about what exactly his situation was,

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Speaker 1: as if you know, the time long long ago when

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Speaker 1: the Internet didn't exist, one of those conversations. And then

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Speaker 1: later we we we all I think, I assume I

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Speaker 1: know I did. We all went to bed and typed

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Speaker 1: into Google Captain Cook. A lot of people think maybe

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Speaker 1: it's Captain Captain Hook the Pirate, or maybe captain you know,

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Speaker 1: Captain uh Kirk from you know, Star trek Uh. He

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Speaker 1: gets mixed up with a lot of other captains, and

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Speaker 1: some people think he was fictionalized, you know, there's always

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Speaker 1: Captain Crunch, you know, but but he was really he's

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Speaker 1: the guy that cuts the inside your mouth up every

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Speaker 1: time you eat his cereal, especially sword cuts in the

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Speaker 1: inside of your mouth, especially with the crunch berry. Remember

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Speaker 1: conspirators of course, carcinogenic serial for bread for you know,

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Speaker 1: for kids. Um. Yeah, yeah, I do think that uh

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Speaker 1: Cook is one of those legendary mythic guys that a

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Speaker 1: lot of people confused with, uh caricatures of of him,

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Speaker 1: like where where's the real you know, you have to

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Speaker 1: dig through all the layers to get down to the

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Speaker 1: actual guy who was actually more interesting than all those caricatures, um,

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Speaker 1: but also very controversial, especially now. I mean, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: a lot of these guys are you know, pettists there there.

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Speaker 1: The statues are coming down and they're being yanked from

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Speaker 1: from the history books, and uh, you know, because they

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Speaker 1: are part of an era of colonialism that that is

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Speaker 1: under you know, under attack right now. Understandably so from

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Speaker 1: folks like from Hawaii. Native Hawaiians really hate Cook because

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Speaker 1: he's sort of the beginning of the end of of

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Speaker 1: that era. Um. Even though he was primarily just an

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Speaker 1: expl or he was he was not a he was

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Speaker 1: not an occupier, He was not a you know, he

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Speaker 1: didn't lead an army. He was genuinely a great navigator

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Speaker 1: and explorer. But he was the beginning. He was the

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Speaker 1: beginning of modernity coming to their shores and changing everything,

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Speaker 1: and you kind of pay the price for it in

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Speaker 1: his own day. Well, that's what a large part of

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Speaker 1: the book is going to be about, is all the

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Speaker 1: events that lead up to that. You know, he's murdered

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Speaker 1: and uh he you know a lot of people say

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Speaker 1: he deserved it karmically or something like that. How many

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Speaker 1: how many encounters with how many Polynesian people did he

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Speaker 1: have before finally you know, violence escalated. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of misques, miss signals, and uh you know, a hatchet

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Speaker 1: ended up between his shoulder blades, a hatchet that he

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Speaker 1: had given them. Uh So note to self, don't give

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Speaker 1: people a hatchet, uh that if you don't know them

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Speaker 1: really well, Um, because it might he might I get

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Speaker 1: returned to You might get returned in in a way

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Speaker 1: you don't like. Okay, we're gonna get into uh getting

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Speaker 1: all that stuff and the other books as well, um,

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Speaker 1: including ah Arctic Exploration, smart things. We gotta cover off

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Speaker 1: on a couple of things. You know what I'm just saying.

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Speaker 1: You don't talking about like taking statues down. Listen, man,

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you what I had a like a prophecy

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Speaker 1: the other day. If any of us gets a statue

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Speaker 1: erected about them, okay, in a hundred years, they will

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Speaker 1: rip that some bit down. It'll be like they were

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Speaker 1: flying in airplanes, they were burning fossil fuels. They knew

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Speaker 1: what they were doing. And people would be like, but

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Speaker 1: everybody was burning fossil fuels back then, and they'd be like,

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Speaker 1: they all knew. And they will tear your statue down

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Speaker 1: and throw in the ocean. And everything you've done that

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Speaker 1: you think is great, and everything you've done it you

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Speaker 1: think is good and worthwhile, no one will care about.

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Speaker 1: They'll they'll reduce you to that one singular fact that

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Speaker 1: you contributed to the destruction of the planet or yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I don't care how nice you were, what kind

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Speaker 1: of dad you were, the way in which you knew

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Speaker 1: that it was wrong, But that's what you will become.

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Speaker 1: That supersedes everything else. That's what you'll become. And they

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Speaker 1: will tear it down and people be like, maybe should

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Speaker 1: put into a museum. Think of what your statue in

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Speaker 1: an ocean can contribute, Like that's that's some habitat right there.

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Speaker 1: That's good. You should have a statue with a lot

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Speaker 1: of fish size holes in it. Yeah, exactly, throwing off

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Speaker 1: in there. Maybe put a bunch of coral polyps on there,

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Speaker 1: and you know, dude, my statue is already doomed. Uh

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Speaker 1: real quick, Oh brody, we gotta talk about youth deer opener.

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Speaker 1: Montana has every like every state does. Now it's it's

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Speaker 1: the I think it's the greatest thing in the world.

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Speaker 1: Our state has a youth Dear Season. Yeah, special opener

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Speaker 1: before the real opener. I if I didn't have kids,

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Speaker 1: I would be against youth Dear Season. Oh I thought

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Speaker 1: you were going to say you'd go find a kid

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Speaker 1: to go hunt with. No, I would have been like

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Speaker 1: like yeah, like you know most people on Earth. Like

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Speaker 1: when I was in eighth or ninth grade, I had L.

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Speaker 1: De Young Civics class, and L. De Young taught civics

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Speaker 1: through the lens of them. He role played. We didn't

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Speaker 1: know he's role playing, but now looking back, he was

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Speaker 1: clearly joking, but he taught civics as them. He would

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Speaker 1: go like, I am concerned only with what effects al

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Speaker 1: de Young and he would like teach civics through the

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Speaker 1: lens of an extremely selfish person like he would. He

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Speaker 1: would be like, I don't I hope that you people

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Speaker 1: in this room never registered to vote, because why would

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Speaker 1: I dilute my vote? Yeah, so if you're if you're

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Speaker 1: not a parent, you'd be like, yeah, so I would have.

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Speaker 1: If I didn't have kids, I would be like, anti

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Speaker 1: youth season. I bet Cal's anti youth season? Are you cal? Oh?

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Speaker 1: All the ship I paid for your kids? Like the

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Speaker 1: taxes and Gallatin Valley? My god, I mean, did they

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Speaker 1: just suck up by going to that free school? Every

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Speaker 1: person in his valley should stop me and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for not breeding but paying for

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Speaker 1: my offspring. So the sentiments like that, Uh, my god?

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Speaker 1: Do I like youth deer season? So what happened with

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Speaker 1: youth dear season? Um? It's this beautiful little system where

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Speaker 1: like normally kids gonna take hunter safety in their twelve.

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Speaker 1: Like when I was a kid, you could start bow

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Speaker 1: hunting at twelve, you couldn't rifle hunt to your fourteen.

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Speaker 1: You can take a hunter safety at twelve. What this

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Speaker 1: does is there's a system by which if you're like,

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Speaker 1: how do they describe you? Gotta be like within arms

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Speaker 1: each of them. Yeah, there, there's wording in there. You

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Speaker 1: can't just wander out. No, you're there. Yeah, you're their mentor. Um.

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Speaker 1: They can get a regular deer license, they have to

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Speaker 1: be with their mentor. It can be a parent, but

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Speaker 1: a parent can also appoint a mentor who has to

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Speaker 1: be I'm not sure if it's eighteen licensed, legal standing

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Speaker 1: all that, and then the kid can hunt and it's

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Speaker 1: a two days it's two days season, yeah, without taking

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Speaker 1: Also they can do it for two years and that's

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Speaker 1: not as kids, that's anyone right. Yeah, I'm staring at

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Speaker 1: my hunters, my Montana Hunters ed certification right now. October

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Speaker 1: four is when I went went through the program here

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Speaker 1: in the state six uh and Brodie's boy got his

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Speaker 1: first deer. He said, he almost teared up. How do

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Speaker 1: you know when you're almost tearing up? I felt it coming,

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Speaker 1: I felt it come. Did you choke it back? I

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Speaker 1: choked it back? Really didn't want to come. Yeah. It

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Speaker 1: was emotional though, man, it was you know, because we

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Speaker 1: put our time in on that. It's a short season,

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Speaker 1: but we did a day of scouting, day of hunting,

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Speaker 1: day a hunting and killed one, you know, mid day,

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Speaker 1: second day, when we thought it was all over, and

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Speaker 1: my boy spotted the deer when I when I thought

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Speaker 1: it was all over, Buck gave us a slip and

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Speaker 1: then we slipped in on him. So it was fun. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And what what was the scene? You're driving down the

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Speaker 1: road talking on your phone and your kids. No, man,

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Speaker 1: we're high around in some public land that's only accessible

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Speaker 1: by you know, hiking or boat or however you want

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Speaker 1: to get in there, but you can't drive in there. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was. It was a great. We had this a

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Speaker 1: little camp set up. Yeah. I had my daughter who's

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Speaker 1: not old enough. She was there. It's great. Man. She's

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Speaker 1: a hiker, Yeah, she's a hike machine. Yeah. She into

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Speaker 1: the hiking part of the adventure. That's what she likes most,

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Speaker 1: but not real what was her connection to the hunting part.

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Speaker 1: She kind of. Um, she very much likes to go,

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Speaker 1: likes the hike around, but isn't that concerned with what

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Speaker 1: we're doing. Uh, he's only there. He's there for the shooting.

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Speaker 1: Single minded. Yeah, he's there for the shooting. He's there

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Speaker 1: to be succes. He's there for the success. Like he's there,

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Speaker 1: he's enduring everything that leads up to the successful part.

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Speaker 1: If he didn't enjoy it as much as he did,

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Speaker 1: I just call him a trigger man. He's he's tournament.

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Speaker 1: He's like there to be successful. He wants that that

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Speaker 1: he's happy to skip ahead to that moment. My daughter,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, is there for the experience, to

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Speaker 1: the point where we could be out of halibut fishing

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Speaker 1: um and be really like fighting a halibit getting the

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Speaker 1: harpoon ready, you know, And I'll look and she's looking

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Speaker 1: off the other direction and isn't totally aware that we're

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Speaker 1: in the middle of catching one. You know, my boy,

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Speaker 1: But give me the rod. Give me the rod, just

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Speaker 1: like did way different. She loves it though she's taking

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Speaker 1: hike and machine. She picked up a bunch of andlers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she had seven sheds. She found hike and fool man.

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Speaker 1: She loves big old blisters on the back of her

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Speaker 1: feet from her brother's boots. Are they all interested in

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Speaker 1: uh cutting it open? And that? Oh yeah, yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: actually you know. After my boy shot at his buck,

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Speaker 1: he was he said to me, I feel happy and

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Speaker 1: sad at the same time. I don't know what to do.

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Speaker 1: But then once like that stuff all kinds goes away

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Speaker 1: when he doesn't mind. Yeah, but once the butcher and starts,

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Speaker 1: he's like he's like, okay, now, yeah, my daughter likes

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Speaker 1: to do the looks, cut the stomach open. But I

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Speaker 1: told her, you know that's interesting on fish, but I

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Speaker 1: dear it's like it's just grass. Yeah, but maybe she

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Speaker 1: wants to look around knock yourself out. But I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you're not gonna find like a duck in air or something,

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Speaker 1: just like well, she yeah, you know, she likes to

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Speaker 1: cutting up. She likes all that. Oh she's great man um,

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Speaker 1: and she's excited to turn but she's got another two

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Speaker 1: years because she can't do it till she's ten. No,

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Speaker 1: she's gonna be listen with her hiking and endurance. Um,

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Speaker 1: she could turn into just a stone cold killer. Because

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Speaker 1: that's the hard part, you know, that's the hard part. Uh. Oh,

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Speaker 1: this is interesting, you know, Like here's a pee Like

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Speaker 1: I hesitate to even do Pete news because Peter makes news.

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Speaker 1: Their formula, like People for Ethical Treatment of Animals, Like

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Speaker 1: their formula is to do something that the coverage will

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Speaker 1: wind up being like what will they do next? It's

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Speaker 1: like a it's like a pr formula. You do something

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Speaker 1: so kind of like what huh, that it gets media attention,

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Speaker 1: and then here we are talking about it. We're getting

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Speaker 1: bated in by their like what come again? So the

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Speaker 1: new thing is special occasion though we're in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the World Series. Yeah, and we have a good

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Speaker 1: friend who's in MLB, not in the you know, much

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Speaker 1: to his chagrin, not in the participating in the World

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Speaker 1: Series right now. But so Pete's new thing. They're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: why everybody's thinking about the World Series. Here's something to

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Speaker 1: try on. They believe that there's time to retire the world.

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Speaker 1: The word bullpen because makes you think of a bull

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Speaker 1: all penned up. I thought of the fact if I

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Speaker 1: was if I was in charge of Peter and someone's like, hey, man,

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Speaker 1: what should be our grape of baseball? I would probably

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Speaker 1: be like, while the gloves are made of leather, the

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Speaker 1: balls made of leather. Everybody's shoes are made of leather.

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Speaker 1: Let's go after the leather. Those guys probably consume a

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Speaker 1: lot of protein. But no that like, I got it, man,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna hit him where it counts. In use of

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Speaker 1: the term bullpen, uh, Pete Alonso mets first basement and

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Speaker 1: Uh two times. He's the only guy he's been on

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Speaker 1: the show. He's been the only guy to hit to

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Speaker 1: win the old UH home run Derby twice. He says

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Speaker 1: he likes to call it the bullpen um. Well, first,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you what Peter says about it. There's

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Speaker 1: he's confusing because we've got Pete and Peter, so you

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Speaker 1: gotta he was gonna say. This would have been a

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Speaker 1: good Halloween costume idea. Peter Alonzo, you don't even this guy. Listen,

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Speaker 1: this guy is very good at sub sentence ship, dumb

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Speaker 1: word plays, and dumb word plays. So you can like

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Speaker 1: a baseball player wearing like birken stocks. You got like

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Speaker 1: a hemp, like a purse or something. I got a baseball.

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Speaker 1: That dude feels so good at ship like that. Peter

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Speaker 1: says that words matter, and baseball bullpens de value. They're

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Speaker 1: kind of playing. They're playing to the strength of the

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Speaker 1: ball players. To begin again, quote words matter, and baseball

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Speaker 1: bullpens d value talented players and mock the misery of

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Speaker 1: sensitive animals. Peter encourages major League Baseball coaches, announcers, players

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Speaker 1: and fans to change up their language and embrace the

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Speaker 1: term arm barn instead, which seems kind of a bunch

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Speaker 1: of severed arms in a bar like like it's disturbing him.

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Speaker 1: And here's what petalso says. He says they should keep

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Speaker 1: calling it the bullpen. How I see, it's when a

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Speaker 1: new guy comes in. He's fresh meat anyways, he's there

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Speaker 1: to smash that pictures earned run average, and that's how

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Speaker 1: he views him as fresh meat. So he likes calling

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Speaker 1: the bullpen. Moving on, that's a cal term. Oh, Kriant,

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Speaker 1: tell us about your all your wild and all your

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Speaker 1: wild food adventures. When you went to Ruby, Yeah, did

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Speaker 1: you guys sing that song? A lot na? Didn't? But

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Speaker 1: take it a waste, that's about all. Uh. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: went to Aruba for a for a vacation, but then

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Speaker 1: kind of did it a little bit the meat either way.

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Speaker 1: Went fishing, and there are quite a number of things

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Speaker 1: that I learned about um. On one of the days

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Speaker 1: that I went fishing, caught a couple of different species,

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Speaker 1: but one was a pretty small parrot fish. And when

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Speaker 1: it came uh, when we reeled it in the the

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Speaker 1: guide said that it was a protected species, and so

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Speaker 1: we returned it and an opportunistic seagull. God those he

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Speaker 1: was God, they were just that that poor little fish

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Speaker 1: just could not get down fast enough. Did you get

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Speaker 1: the feeling that the seagull was like on your situation,

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Speaker 1: Like he's like, these people will produce food if I stayed,

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Speaker 1: if I fly around here. There were times where there

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Speaker 1: were no birds around the boat, and then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, they're going to be like a flock hanging out.

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Speaker 1: And we tried to put the fish return it to

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Speaker 1: a spot where yeah, exactly, we tried to do it surreptitiously,

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Speaker 1: but this one was just just went in there and

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Speaker 1: grabbed it. Um. But you know, we we we hope

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Speaker 1: to get it back into the water safely. But um, anyway,

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Speaker 1: so you killed a lot of fish. We killed a

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Speaker 1: couple and killed a couple of fish. Um. But I

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Speaker 1: was looking at it's its mouth and it is like

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Speaker 1: a little it's like a it's like someone who just

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Speaker 1: had their braces taken off, and it's got like really straight,

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Speaker 1: a really straight top and bottom row of these just yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're not like little sharp teeth. It's just kind of

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Speaker 1: like a retainer. Um. Thankfully I did not experience that. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I would imagine because they use that little beak

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Speaker 1: type mouth teeth situation too. They eat algae, and they

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Speaker 1: eat algae off rocks and coral. Uh, and then they

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Speaker 1: poop out sand and you'll just see it coming off them.

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Speaker 1: So they make their peaches. Yeah, yeah, so I I

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Speaker 1: found that fascinating. Um. When h Kimmy Warner, we're we're

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Speaker 1: spear fishing for parrot fish, Kenny Warrener. One of her

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Speaker 1: strategies is when she dives down, she takes a rock

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Speaker 1: and scrapes the rock on the coral to mimic the

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Speaker 1: sound of feeding parrot fish. So she goes down and

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Speaker 1: she's like and does it that like the rhythm they

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Speaker 1: use when they're doing that to to try to like

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Speaker 1: replicate the sound of a feeding one. You had to

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Speaker 1: put them to put him at ease. How clever. She'll

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Speaker 1: take two rocks and put them in her hands and

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Speaker 1: just rub them together like that. Did you eat them

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Speaker 1: when you got? Oh? Yeah, they're very popular. Like they're

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Speaker 1: like they're like a high grade fish in Hawaii, and

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Speaker 1: often they're protected and people say they're protected because they

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Speaker 1: make sand, but they're protected because they're like they're they're

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Speaker 1: a favorite of the scuba diving world. Yes, big, bright,

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Speaker 1: beautiful at times, pretty easy to kill. And so it's

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Speaker 1: one of those ones that in some areas it's just

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Speaker 1: even like in places where it's like in Mexico you can,

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Speaker 1: but it was explained to me in a lot of

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Speaker 1: areas it's like, hey, you can, but we kind of

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Speaker 1: don't because they're so popular with divers, these big blue,

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Speaker 1: crazy as fish, you know, and people like you can

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Speaker 1: shoot them. They're good to eat, but we generally don't

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Speaker 1: because they're they hold a lot of value as a

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Speaker 1: as a fish to behold, you know. And they do

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Speaker 1: have like that sexual transition to right, so they're all

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Speaker 1: female and then hermaphrod did it and switch over to male.

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Speaker 1: And there's a worry of like the harvest, how the

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Speaker 1: harvest is going to impact that dynamic for reading, which

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Speaker 1: is another argument, Like in these places where it is

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Speaker 1: a really good food fish, I mean we ate several

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Speaker 1: really um and uh and and then you have a

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Speaker 1: lot of us right land of any uses type of

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Speaker 1: situation where you got divers and fisher mountain and people

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Speaker 1: that just want to eat. And then there her when

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Speaker 1: they they're hermaphrodites, and when they turned their their coloration.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember what way it goes. Can you explained it?

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Speaker 1: I think the blues are the males. Does that happen

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Speaker 1: at a certain stage because the one I caught was

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Speaker 1: pretty small like the big dogs? Or when they turned

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Speaker 1: to a female or is it their way around to

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Speaker 1: look at that Catl's gonna look it up on the internet. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I did get a really good opportunity to. We were

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Speaker 1: talking dinosaurs with my buddy's kid the other day and

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Speaker 1: he was explaining me how the females t rexes are

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Speaker 1: always smaller than the male t rexes. I said, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's called sexual dimorphism, and he was like, anyway, t

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Speaker 1: rex Oh man, do we gotta you should bring that

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Speaker 1: kid down. We got a guy coming up that kid

384
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Speaker 1: would be extremely I don't want to say, who bring

385
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Speaker 1: that kid down? At him sitting the lazy boy back there,

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Speaker 1: I'll let his dad. No, he is like probably in

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Speaker 1: between your two oldest boys. Mhmm, yeah, he takes uh. Well,

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Speaker 1: he's looking it up and talk about the little the

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Speaker 1: little going ads you were eating. Oh yeah. Um. So

390
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Speaker 1: the other thing I did was I the first day

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Speaker 1: uh of snorkeling. I spotted a number of sea urchin around,

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Speaker 1: so then before I wanted to make sure that I

393
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Speaker 1: was allowed to attempt to harvest one or two. Found

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Speaker 1: out that it was not an issue, and um, I

395
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: harvested one white sea urchin and one black sea arch

396
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Speaker 1: and I was told that the white ones you could

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Speaker 1: pick up without being stung. But I was kind of

398
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Speaker 1: just very nervous about I was out there by myself,

399
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Speaker 1: so I didn't want to miss step. So I was like,

400
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 1: I used my scuba fin and I used like a

401
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 1: mesh bag to try to figure out how to get

402
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: it without really touching it. So that was successful for

403
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 1: these two critters, and I was very excited to try

404
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: to replicate like a great restaurant experience with these like

405
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: plump you know, pieces of ny. Unfortunately that was not

406
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 1: what happened. Um, boney is going ad. So the row well,

407
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: I'm no, it's a going add. It is a gonad

408
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: well going adds not a row like going add. How's

409
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 1: that not a testicle? You know about this handine, you

410
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: write a book, I do not stuff. We're getting pretty deep.

411
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Speaker 1: So okay, this is from Science Daily. The general gland

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Speaker 1: of a sea arch in. The so called gonad is

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Speaker 1: found inside the urchin. The organ stores nutrients and contains

414
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Speaker 1: milt and row during the spawning season, and you can

415
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Speaker 1: eat both males and females um. And I, you know,

416
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: I didn't know what season we were in for spawning

417
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Speaker 1: and not. And I know that there are a couple

418
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Speaker 1: of After reading, I found out there are a couple

419
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: of factors that would influence how plump the row would be. So,

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Speaker 1: uh my, my little urchins had just kind of a

421
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Speaker 1: tiny bit of slime and they're not particularly orange, not

422
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Speaker 1: particularly plump. I no, really, I kind of you know,

423
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: I you you there's a lot of gooey guts stuff

424
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: inside the urchin. You kind of wash that out, and

425
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: the gonads are um kind of right at the back

426
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: of the inside of the shell, and you can kind

427
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 1: of scrape those out with your fingers. It's pretty easy

428
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: to do that. And I just had like a little

429
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: a little yellow film um, not particularly good. So I

430
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: was disappointed, but the experience was was fun anyway, and

431
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 1: just kind of cutting them open and seeing their parts

432
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 1: and and yeah, so you try again next time. You're

433
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: in the right area at the right time. Absolutely, Oh yeah,

434
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: up at our up at my fish check. There's commercial

435
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: guys come through in the winter. Oh really, and they're

436
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: even up even they do. Yeah, they come through every

437
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: winter for the cucumbers and the urchins urge and row. Yeah. Yeah,

438
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 1: I would try again any day. I love finding things

439
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 1: like that. How's it come col Should we just move on?

440
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 1: Are you gonna report? Oh, I'm I'm gonna report. So yeah,

441
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: blue blues are mail. According there's there's all sorts of

442
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: parrot fish, as you know, but the ones that we

443
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: were hunting specifically, UM, Hawaii considers them the blues male,

444
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: and the males kind of tend to a harem of females.

445
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 1: And when the big blue male is shot, as per

446
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: our discussion, uh, the alpha female then transitions to a

447
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: mail that is wild. It's I think she's just addressing

448
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 1: a need huh. Oh man. Yeah, And so he's so interesting.

449
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 1: You know, when I was diving down California, we talked

450
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: a lot about sheep head down there, and that is

451
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: a species that's like highly targeted for like the restaurant

452
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: aquarium side of things. Um. And the argument down there

453
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: is because they reproduce in the same way a male

454
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: tends an area develops a harem of females or congregates

455
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: a harem of females, and then when the male is

456
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: caught or killed or removed from the scenario, a female

457
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: then transitions to mail. Well, um, that population, they've seen

458
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: it reduce in average size, Like the average size of

459
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: the take is getting smaller and smaller and smaller because

460
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: the um the population is forcing smaller fish to turn mail.

461
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's a big part of the argument here,

462
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: because I know on the Big Island of Hawaii you

463
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: can take male parrot fish, but on Maui you are

464
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: not allowed any male parrot fish take. Can't can't kill

465
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: the blue ones because they don't want you prematurely triggering

466
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: younger ones into their sexual transition. I think would be

467
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: the biology cole argument stuff. Speaking of sheep's had fish,

468
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: I just looked up at picture of that that is gnarly.

469
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: There's a good jillions yeah, good teeth, Oh yeah, the

470
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: one I pulled up has like teeth look human. And

471
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: then it's just like got these rows of flat like

472
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: cut chewing muller looking things. Cal hit us with this

473
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: deal you checked out on this poblo escobar deal. Yeah, Yeah,

474
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: this recent development is new, but I feel very comfortable

475
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: with the folks at the table. We can cover it

476
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: just fine. So, uh, drug kingpan Pablo Escobar got into

477
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: hippos and released hippos. Those hippos make a um in

478
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: um narcos. Oh, they're making appearance. The hippos have like

479
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: a what do you call it, like a cameo nice

480
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: hips in arcs. Yeah, they're big, big stars. Um. So

481
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: there was a point in the world, a point in

482
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: time rather where people have the idea of transporting wildlife

483
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: all over the place. Um. You know, you can probably

484
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: get more eccentric than a big drug kingpin. But they

485
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: do what they want. And and this guy Pablo got

486
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: some hippos in as probably like an oddity. And then

487
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: there was there's all these stories about like also for defense,

488
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: you know, nobody can come in through his hippo defense whatever.

489
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: So um, from an ecological standpoint, we know that they

490
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: are they consume a niche where they're um, they're deforesters.

491
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: They really they're they're huge animal and they reconstruct waterways

492
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: and the world I was surprised to see is the

493
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: world's largest invasive species, which makes sense to me, like

494
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: a couple of thousand pounds. Oh yeah, over two and pounds.

495
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: Yeah and UM, and they're they're very dangerous, they're very

496
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: territorial all the things. UM. Interesting side note this, this

497
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: was actually proposed in the state Louisiana to bring hippos

498
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: in as a possible commercial enterprise UM for meat production,

499
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: for meat production. UM. You can fast forward to see

500
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: how well Louisiana did with neutria. I'm glad, we're probably

501
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: glad they started small. Uh. If this works, then we

502
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: go to hippos. Uh. So the interesting thing is, uh,

503
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: somebody here in the US decided to get ahead of

504
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: the hippo curve and have has somehow won some court

505
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: case to bestow upon hippo's um some some human rights.

506
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: And this has absolutely nothing to do with the very

507
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: catchy headline of uh CO cane hippos as they're often called. UM.

508
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,719
Speaker 1: But it is interesting to say, like, here is this

509
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: species that if something were to happen with one in

510
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: the US, it would be protected under an extra level

511
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: of protection, somewhat human, you could say, m hm. And

512
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: but there's it's not doing anything to protect the hippos

513
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: in Colombia because it's an American. Correct. Yeah, yeah, again,

514
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: it's just like borrowing the headline. But you can see

515
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: this as like an animal rights type of wind and um,

516
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: depending on on if you want to take sides. I

517
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: hate saying that we have to take sides, but it's like,

518
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: is this a wind for animals or is it I'm

519
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: leaning more towards the barn arm thing with this one.

520
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: No man to see home this dude real quick. This

521
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: dude is they're talking about cooling the hippos in Colombia.

522
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: In Colombia. Yes, so some dude inspired by that threat

523
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: try to make a is trying to make a thing

524
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: in the US. But a legal analyst is saying that

525
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: you can do all you want in the US. It

526
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: has no like enforcement. Correct. So it's like it's just

527
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: doing it for fun. Yes, but then it's like crusading

528
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: against the bullpen. It's like you're just doing You're just

529
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 1: throwing stuff out there. And then you know, let's say

530
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: we have a situation where all of a sudden, somebody

531
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: managed to get a bunch of Louisiana hippo started way

532
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: off and some parish and then all of a sudden,

533
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: now you have the legal president, you have this legal

534
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: thing hanging out there is like you know, kids in

535
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: their p rogues get sucked under by territorial hippos, right,

536
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: and it's like, well those hippos have rights. Well, now's

537
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: the time to get a hippo thing going down there

538
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: if you worry about their long term deal. Brody real

539
00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: quickly dig into this, um, dig into this, this, this,

540
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: this kind of crazy journey by this great wolf, and

541
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: then we're gonna get into our esteemed author here. Sure,

542
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: I feel like these wolf take a long walk stories

543
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: are getting a little passe, But this one, dude, listen man, well,

544
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: I mean, like any story about any animal that goes

545
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: along ways for mysterious reasons, this one's is interesting because

546
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: of where it ended up. UM. A gray wolf named

547
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: O R. Nine from Oregon UH took a one thousand

548
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: mile southward journey from northern Oregon to southern California. Thousand miles.

549
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: It never gets old to me, crossed UH two major

550
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 1: highways and the five um southernmost sighting of the species

551
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: in the Golden State and nearly a century. And as

552
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: it's typical, it's a two year old male that broke

553
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 1: off of its wolf river pack and decided to go

554
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: for a long walk, covering sixteen miles a day before

555
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: his collar failed. You know what, but I'll just call

556
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: it when I got something with a collar, they call

557
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: it keeping it on air. But we kept that thing

558
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: on air five years. Like that traveled through sixteen counties.

559
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: There's a great quote in the end where he uh,

560
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: now they're warning if the wolf is in Ventura County

561
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 1: right yep, yea near Santa Barbara. There's a quote where

562
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: is that. Oh, there's a quote from a guy who says, Um,

563
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: it's very rural. It's not like he's at the beach

564
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: with a whole bunch of people or anything like that.

565
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: Stealing potato chips from someone's like towel off the beach.

566
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: That's from Uh, that's what a from a spokesperson from

567
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: California Department of Fishing Game. Um, that was his quote.

568
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: It's not like he's at the beach with a whole

569
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: bunch of people or anything like that. But when I

570
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: read this one, you know how, there's a certain, uh,

571
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: certain segment of people who are both anti wolf and

572
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: anti uh left wing city people. They're like, well, we

573
00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: should turn those wolves loosen. Boulder, Colorado, list. It's just

574
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,439
Speaker 1: you know he's there. You got your dream though. Yeah. Wait,

575
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: there's a wolf in Santa Barbro. Yeah I might be

576
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: there now. Just speaking with a family that runs a

577
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: mix like goat sheep operation to knock down um you know,

578
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: like nasty They do like thinning operations around California primarily

579
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 1: to um get rid of fuel build up, fire fuel

580
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 1: build up and some noxious weed control and stuff. But

581
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: so they run a ton of a ton of boor

582
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: goats and a and a ton of a type of

583
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: hair sheep that I can't remember what it is. But um,

584
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: we're talking about um predators in the way of the

585
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: state of California runs their their predator stuff and and

586
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 1: according to these folks at Start Creek Land Stewards, UM,

587
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: they do participate on like a wolf board in the

588
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: state of California. Um it's to talk about like how

589
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: we are going to manage wolves, Like, so California is

590
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: like being progressive and in the fact that they are

591
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: going to have wolves in their near future, well they

592
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: have an established pack, they're already Yeah. Yeah, what did

593
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: they do with this wolf? Did they? Did they know?

594
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: I think he's good to go wherever he wants as

595
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: long as he doesn't get in trouble killing a cow

596
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: or something. I would assume in this guy, he was

597
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: he made a bunch of headlines last year. But then

598
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 1: when like off radar, right, yeah, yeah, they lost to

599
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: signal and he just turned up. Um, he's probably a

600
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 1: dead end. I mean unless he he either comes back,

601
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: he's probably a dead end. He's got to run into

602
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: a female. That's the weird thing about when when when

603
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: you see these large predators that take off, you know,

604
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 1: it's it's so often like juvenile man, and so I

605
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: see what they're going for. He's like, you know, he's

606
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: gonna find like the shangri La. But you would have

607
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: going is you're like a you're like a um genetic

608
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 1: that end, Yeah, because you're just not gonna turn up.

609
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: What he's doing makes sense. He's just not going to

610
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,720
Speaker 1: find what he's looking for. The shangral on this situation

611
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: would be unattended. Females, yeah, ladies and no competition. But

612
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: cal going back to what you were saying, like, I

613
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 1: don't I don't ever see California getting to the point

614
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: where Montana, Wyoming, Idaho is with wolves Like no matter

615
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: how many they have no, they'll never cut a wolf

616
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: season in California. Holy ship, man, people have a heart attack.

617
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, man, can you imagine? But you know California

618
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: does a lot of culling of predators because they big

619
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 1: private landowners, because they don't have enough bear hunters or

620
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: lots of agriculture get it done. Yeah, they yeah, they

621
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: like to. They like to let the government do it,

622
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: not not paying Sportsman's Hampton. Remind anybody what your books are.

623
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: I got him here. If you can't remember, well I

624
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: can remember them, um, although I wish, you know, they

625
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: take me a long time to do. It take me

626
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: like five years to actually get them done. So they're

627
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: not as many as I would like, um, but they

628
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: all count. So Ghost Soldiers, which is about the Baton

629
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: Death March in World War Two and the Philippines and

630
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: the prison war camps there um and a rescue that

631
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: took place late in the war to rescue the last

632
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: survivors of the death March. Um. That was my first book,

633
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: my first history, and uh um moved on from there

634
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: to Blood and Thunder, which you mentioned we mentioned earlier,

635
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: which is about the opening of the American West in

636
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: the eighteen forties. Fifties and sixties. Uh, and sort of

637
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: follows loosely the the life of Kit Carson, this controversial

638
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: frontiersman who did a little bit of everything and was

639
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: kind of like, as you say that, kind of a

640
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: Forrest Gump of the American West, um pinged and pond

641
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 1: off of every every historical event and um was everywhere

642
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: and mountain man, check, cattleman, check, rancher in general, scout courier,

643
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: indian agent check. Uh And and of course in his

644
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: last kind of act of his career, he uh did

645
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,720
Speaker 1: the roundup and the of the Novajo people that the Denay,

646
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: and uh that's what he's known for now, um, not

647
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: all those other things that he did. But after that,

648
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: I wrote a book called um Hellhound on his Trail,

649
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 1: which is about the assassination of Martin Luther King in Memphis,

650
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: which is where I grew up, born and raised in Memphis,

651
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: and always kind of wanted to deconstruct and try to

652
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: understand this seismic event in my city's history. And uh,

653
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: I decided that James Earl Ray was in fact the killer,

654
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: and it ends up being a psychological file of of

655
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: him and how the FBI finally caught him, um after

656
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: one of the largest man hunts in American history where

657
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: he's from southern Illinois. He was kind of a redneck,

658
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: came from came from just terrible, terrible poverty. Um lots

659
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: of I mean, I don't know how much time we

660
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: have to go into him, but he he was a

661
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: piece of work, a real piece of work. Uh. And

662
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: the book follows him in the months just prior to

663
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: the assassination. He begins to kind of stalk King and

664
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: he moves to Atlanta, and he uh is trying to

665
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: find his moment where he can he buy his rifle,

666
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: He buys scope, buys the ammunition, buy but you know,

667
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: buys a binoculars uh and and literally stalks him, you know,

668
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: hunts m um. Uh. So after that book, Uh, that's

669
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: when I moved to this Arctic story. It's called in

670
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: the Kingdom of Ice, and it's about the first American,

671
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: the first official American attempt on the North Pole. Uh.

672
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 1: It's a story that almost no one's heard of. Uh.

673
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: The U S S. Jannette, which happened in eighteen seventy nine.

674
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: Eight Uh one. They went up through the Bearing straight

675
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: uh of Alaska, and I got stuck in the ice,

676
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: drifted in the ice for two years until the ship

677
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: was crushed by the by the ice pack. And these

678
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: men thirty three men and forty dogs and three small

679
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: boats out on the ice pack, a thousand miles from

680
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: the nearest land mass, which is the central coast of Siberia.

681
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: And it's it's really a story about how they made

682
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: it home. Some made it home, some didn't. But it's

683
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: almost half through, so okay, I won't tell you killing

684
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: no spoiler alert, except that you know, I think you

685
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 1: can tell that it's not gonna go well for everyone,

686
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: including the dogs. Almost the dog, sorry Peter, Peter probably won't.

687
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't like my book that they won't

688
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 1: have a problem with the I have a problem with

689
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: those people. Oh yeah, yeah that that. That's one of

690
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 1: the what I'm appreciating the most is just how I

691
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: haven't heard any any of this, and um, how how

692
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 1: much of a story it was in its day and

693
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: not have not even a anything. That's why I wrote it.

694
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 1: That's why I wrote it. I was like, why haven't

695
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: I heard of this? Why haven't we all heard this?

696
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: This is the American Shackleton story. You know, It's like greatest,

697
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: one of the greatest survival stories of all time, I

698
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 1: truly believe. And yet um, I had never heard of

699
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: it until I, you know, just kind of found out

700
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: about it by chance. Um. And it was in its

701
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: day the story that everybody knew these guys. Everybody followed

702
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: their fate and wanted to know what was going to

703
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: happen to them, and uh, you know, it was like

704
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: we had sent men to the moon uh uh and

705
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 1: or the dark side of the moon really because they

706
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: were gone for three years and no news from these

707
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: guys come man. Um. So it's a you know, it's

708
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: a it's a classic uh survival story, a little bit

709
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: of scurvy, you know, a little bit of cannibalism. Okay,

710
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: Now there's not actually cannibalism, um, but it seems like

711
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 1: these Arctic stories always have that kind of that kind

712
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: of ethos. So there's cannibalism, scurvy, Oh, mutiny, that's the

713
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: other one. Good times um uh. But also a football

714
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: like it's a very regimented okay, like to keep all active. Yeah,

715
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: the captain's got a very regimented daily routine and and

716
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: the um executive officer and it involves you know, like

717
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 1: mentally and physically keeping people engaged because it's it's like

718
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 1: us in this room are in a space not all

719
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: that much bigger than this room for two years. Yeah,

720
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 1: kel's dogs laying here and we'd probably want up eating it. Uh,

721
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,760
Speaker 1: I mean, how much of the year is darkness? About

722
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 1: half of it? And and there's this one guy who

723
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: is his name is Collins, and he is a word

724
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: play guy. Um, you know, kind of kind of like you. Uh,

725
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: he's you know, he's a he's a punster and and

726
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: he does limericks and he's this jolly guy that you know,

727
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 1: you know, we all know people like that, and they're

728
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: wonderful to be with for about you know, an hour.

729
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry that that checks out. But Phil

730
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: hasn't gone into limericks yet. If he were to go

731
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:49,919
Speaker 1: into limericks, he might be that would be the job.

732
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,479
Speaker 1: One hour would be enough for most of these guys.

733
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: But they were with this dude for two years and

734
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 1: they all wanted to wring his neck. I mean, they

735
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: wanted to kill him. They did. Um so yeah, so yeah.

736
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: A lot of the book is of study of of

737
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: how people survive um close proximity and claustrophobia and darkness

738
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 1: for half the year and arctic conditions. And one of

739
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: the things they do is, apart from playing football out

740
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: on the ice is UM they do a lot of

741
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: hunting UM. And they hunt polar bear and walrus and

742
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: seal UM and they get to be pretty good at it.

743
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: And that's one of the reasons they don't get scurvy,

744
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: as they're constantly eating fresh food UH and and greens

745
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: that they find around the edges of the Arctic. So

746
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: it's a it's you know, it's it's a cooking and

747
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: hunting UH book a lot of ways kind of fits

748
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: in with what you guys talk about UM and UH.

749
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: They finally get to open water after a thousand miles

750
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: on the ice, and they put in their boats and

751
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 1: they start sailing for Siberia UH. And they encounter a

752
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 1: gale the next day, a very bad storm, and the

753
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: three boats are scattered from each other, and UH the

754
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,240
Speaker 1: story becomes, you know, really just follows these three boats

755
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 1: as they make their way towards UH. Uh a river delta,

756
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: the Lana the Lana Delta, which is uh one of

757
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: the hugest deltas on Earth, and it's a labyrinth of

758
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: thousands of islands and you know switchbacks and cold to sacs,

759
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's where the story, the rest of

760
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: the story takes place. I won't tell you anything like

761
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 1: a psychological false summit story where like as soon as

762
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 1: I get on top there like keep keeps going. Yeah, yeah,

763
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 1: the misery just keeps It's like misery porn, you know,

764
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: it just keeps going. Hey, you know when you're mentioning

765
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 1: there's certain I don't want to call them tropes, but

766
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,919
Speaker 1: certain things that Arctic exploration stories involved, Like you're always

767
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: like looking ahead of the cannibalism part, the mutiny part.

768
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: There's also um the encounters with Askimo or Intuit hunters

769
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: who and you want it with this like really stark juxtaposition,

770
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: because here's these people who are thriving, they're like raising

771
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 1: children and they show up and it's often that they

772
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: don't want to get too close. It's kind of like

773
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: what are these people doing here? And you see like

774
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: these two just like vastly different ways that people sort

775
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: of comprehend the Arctic landscape and can live on the

776
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 1: Arctic landscape. You know, it's like the thing that's killing

777
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: all you people. Meanwhile, there are individuals who are raising

778
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: children here by choice. Yeah. It's like and you kind

779
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 1: of like because it brings up these all these things

780
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: you're talking about, like resilience and ingenuity, but like that juxtaposition,

781
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: they're raising families here and we're all dying. Yeah. In

782
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 1: this story, they end up in a place in Siberia

783
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: that I went to. Uh, and the Yakut people are

784
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: still thriving, still living there. Uh And and they play

785
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: a big role and rescuing these guys um and sharing

786
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: what they have. They're great hunters and and they live

787
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: off the land and they understand the nuances of ice

788
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 1: and window fish and went to hunt and went to

789
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: retreat uh to the south. And you know, Uh, it's

790
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: a fascinating part of the story. Actually there is the

791
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 1: people who actually live in this place that that seems

792
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: to be killing uh these uh these white dudes, mostly

793
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: white tings. But there are two um Alaska Inuit hunters

794
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: who are part of this expedition from the beginning. And

795
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: uh they play a big role. Uh they're great hunters

796
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: and uh they keep this thing going. They keep these

797
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: men alive. Uh. Their knowledge of of of of of

798
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: how to hunt this kind of landscape, this sort of

799
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: perma frost um landscape, and um, you know they're hunting

800
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: reindeer mainly, but also polar bear and walrus. And I

801
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 1: was thinking the mental side of things, right, it's like

802
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 1: they I think they brought on a hundred dogs at

803
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: the very beginning. No, not that many, about fifty that much.

804
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: But um, the dogs are important, and UM, don't worry

805
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: if they don't. They aren't eaten until maybe the very

806
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,919
Speaker 1: very very very bitter end because they're they're working, they're

807
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 1: part of the team. They are part of the team,

808
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: and they're beloved. And uh, there's one favorite dog named Snoozer.

809
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: Things do not go well for Snoozer and the an

810
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: I'm afraid, but we want Lesten not go there. It's

811
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: too sad. But if you're on that boat too, it's

812
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 1: like these these two, Oh I ask him, are there

813
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: to take care of the dogs too? And man, if

814
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 1: you're not a dog person, you have fifty of them

815
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: that you're living with, their piano and pooping on staff.

816
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: Walk everybody through your latest on desperate ground. On desperate

817
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 1: ground is um a battle story. It's the story of

818
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,919
Speaker 1: the most the most epic Battle of the Korean War,

819
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: and it's it's the Battle of Chosen Reservoir. Um. You know,

820
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: I've I've always kind of been curious about the Korean

821
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 1: War because, as you know, it's kind of an also

822
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 1: ran in our in our history, Like we don't talk

823
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: about it that much in school. It's not studied as much.

824
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:10,760
Speaker 1: Some people don't even think it was a real war

825
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 1: because it's been called a U. N. Police action, or

826
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: it's been called, you know, perhaps a civil a civil

827
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:24,280
Speaker 1: war that that the world kind of glommed onto. Um.

828
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 1: But they killed far far more Americans than the Global

829
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,839
Speaker 1: War on Terror. Have absolutely and more more people uh

830
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 1: per per year than the Vietnam War. Um. And I

831
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,280
Speaker 1: don't know it was more in a more efficient killer. Yeah,

832
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 1: and it was. It was it was kind of a

833
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,439
Speaker 1: world war. It was like a world war crammed down

834
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 1: into this one peninsula, the Chinese, the Russians, uh, and

835
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 1: the North Koreans versus the U N. Led by of

836
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: course the United States. But uh, it's also I kind

837
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,359
Speaker 1: of wanted to do this because it's sort of my

838
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 1: my parents war, my parents generation war. Uh, my my

839
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: stepfather fought. They're uh, my father in law had Korean

840
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: War orders and made it as far as Japan. Um.

841
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: So you know, I just kind of want to understand

842
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 1: what they this was their conflict of and I unfortunately

843
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: was saying goodbye to some of my uh that generation

844
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of like I lost my

845
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: stepfather and lost my father in law a couple of

846
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: years ago. So um, that was kind of my personal motivation,

847
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: just want to understand what what was this thing? Um?

848
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 1: And and you know, I think the Korean War is

849
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: a very tough narrative to get your arms around, so

850
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: I decided to reduce it down to something more understandable,

851
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: which is one battle you know, that has a clear beginning,

852
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: middle end, And the Battle of Chosen Reservoir is that battle.

853
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: It's um, you know, it's it's kind of like a classic.

854
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: It's like something out of through Cydites or you know,

855
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 1: Herodotus or something. It's like this. You know, this army

856
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: marches up into this wilderness on the shores of a

857
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 1: frozen lake where they are completely surrounded by tend to

858
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 1: one by this force that had secretly entered the war.

859
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the Chinese Red Army, and uh, this

860
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 1: is the first marine Division of the United States is uh,

861
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: you know, seemingly going to be wiped out, and it's

862
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 1: it's really how they fought their way out of this

863
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,760
Speaker 1: trap and how they fought their way back to the sea.

864
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: You could say it's a retreat. It's a story about

865
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 1: a retreat, but the Marines, of course, do not allow

866
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 1: you to use the word retreat. And there's a lot

867
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: of euphemisms for retreat. Uh, retrograde maneuver is one I

868
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 1: like another one is advanced to the rear. But uh,

869
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 1: this is one of the you know, this is a

870
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 1: fighting withdrawal. This is they fought every step of the

871
00:53:56,239 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 1: way to get there, to get out of this call loss.

872
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 1: Will you know, it's a series of blunders that led

873
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 1: to this, Uh, mainly by blunders committed by a guy

874
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 1: named General Douglas MacArthur. You've heard of him, and and uh,

875
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 1: you know, the Marines just can't stand MacArthur. They just

876
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: to this day they hate him with such a passion.

877
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: But so the first half of the book looks at

878
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: all those blunders and kind of how it all happened

879
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 1: that they were trapped and how they didn't know how

880
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: could they not know that the three hundred thousand Chinese

881
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 1: had across the border from North Korea, I mean from Manchuria. Um,

882
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 1: And how how they got kind of put in this position?

883
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: And then the rest is of the book is about

884
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 1: how they how they fought their way out. Uh. How

885
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,959
Speaker 1: do you of all the basilions of ideas that flow

886
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:53,359
Speaker 1: through your head, how do you um narrowed down? I mean,

887
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: is it is it like eventually it's like a throw

888
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 1: in a dart at a wall and be like I'll

889
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: pick that thing. Or does it become clear to you

890
00:54:58,040 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 1: what you need to do when you're when you're doing

891
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: book projects, You're like, I've been five years on when

892
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 1: you said the five years, that's what I'm like, are

893
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 1: you procrastinating for four? And what is the thing? Well,

894
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: some people have said that I picked my books based

895
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 1: on interesting travel that would be required. That's why I

896
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:19,800
Speaker 1: was going to ask about travel, because I was wondering

897
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 1: how much you if it's always places you want to go,

898
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 1: or if you ever like all that sucks, I gotta

899
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: go there. Now that's not completely um untrue? You know

900
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: I do. I do love to travel, and I do

901
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 1: want to pick stories that require interesting far flung travel. Um.

902
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,359
Speaker 1: So that's true. Um, but it's also uh, you know,

903
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: it's it's a whole combination of things. I think. I

904
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 1: always say that it's like there's two sets of criteria.

905
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: Are two ledgers that I use, Like one is one

906
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: is the kind of rational ledger? You know, it's like

907
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:02,919
Speaker 1: is this a good story? Check? Is is there enough material? Check?

908
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: Has it been written about? Not you know too much?

909
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 1: Or not enough? Check? And you know, you check all

910
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 1: the obvious boxes for what is will this make a

911
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: good story? But then there's sort of the irrational side

912
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: of it, which is does the hair on the back

913
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:20,280
Speaker 1: of your neck stand up when you think about this story?

914
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: Does it grab you? Is it exciting? Is it? Is it? Uh?

915
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 1: You know that kind of tingling in your gut feeling

916
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 1: that I can I can live with this thing for

917
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: five years and um, it'll sustain me. And you gotta

918
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:35,760
Speaker 1: have both of those. You've gotta have the rational side

919
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 1: and the irrational side. Um. And I guess I guess

920
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 1: timing also has something to do with it. I mean

921
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 1: this Korean War book I thought about doing twenty years

922
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 1: ago or fifteen years ago, uh, and kind of filed

923
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: it away. How did it first? Like how did the

924
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: how do how do you pronounce the chosen, chosen res chosen?

925
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 1: I kdn't realize that. Yeah, how do you remember? How

926
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 1: did the chosen reservoir? Or take kick Carson or the janette? Like,

927
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 1: do you remember the first time entered your head? Yeah? Well,

928
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:11,360
Speaker 1: because I've never heard of it before. H And I

929
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: was signing books, my first book, Ghost Soldiers, which is

930
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 1: about some really tough dudes, the veterans of the Baton

931
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 1: Death March. You don't you can't imagine people tougher than

932
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 1: Baton Death March guys. But as I'm signing this book,

933
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 1: this gentleman comes up who was a Korean War vet

934
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 1: and he says like, yeah, he's Baton guys are a

935
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: bunch of wuzzy's. You know, you should do a book

936
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 1: on the on the reservoir. And I'm like, what, what's

937
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 1: the reservoir? Tell me more? And he's like, well, you know,

938
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 1: here's my card and he put his card down and

939
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: it said the Chosen Few. It's the name of their

940
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: organization called themselves the Chosen Few. And I like that

941
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: little play on words. Yeah, and uh, Phil would like that.

942
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 1: And he I noticed that he was missing his fingertips,

943
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 1: and it turned out that he had lost his fingertips

944
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: in the battle. Uh. I forgot to mention that this

945
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: battle was fought in thirty five below zero weather, and

946
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: uh that it was the third combatant. Really, you know,

947
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: it's the Chinese, the Americans, and old Man Winter. It

948
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: was fought in late November early December of n and

949
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: uh it made an impression on me, you know, I

950
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, tell me more. And I took his

951
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 1: card and I filed it away and began to read

952
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: about it. But I think it took me about fifteen

953
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: years before I started really deciding this is the time

954
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 1: to write that book. But in the meantime, you're just

955
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 1: you're probably reading books and you know, let me let

956
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: me ask this question another way at this moment, sitting

957
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:51,439
Speaker 1: here right now, UM, how many contenders are floating around

958
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: in your head? I don't know. I I got a list,

959
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 1: uh four, maybe ten or ten or twenty book ideas

960
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: that I might and you're not going to get to

961
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 1: them all. Oh, I'm not gonna You're like, it's a

962
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: race against the clock at a point, right, it's a

963
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 1: right right against the clock. It's also race against Um,

964
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 1: I mean I don't know about the future of publishing,

965
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: you know, like I don't know if people are gonna

966
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: be reading twenty years from now, at least not in

967
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: the way that we think of of ink and glue

968
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 1: and paper and you know, the old fashioned books that

969
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 1: you know, I love to just read a good book

970
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, now it's it's a different kind

971
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: of reading public. But but the you see, I'm getting

972
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:34,919
Speaker 1: back to I gotta ask you this, and I gotta

973
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: go back to in their question. But the economics if

974
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 1: people are reading on their phone, like that doesn't affect

975
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: your economics, right, I mean too terribly. No, it's not.

976
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 1: It's not too terrible. But do you mean they want

977
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 1: to sit down and live with live with fies y, Yeah,

978
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 1: that's part of it. I mean I have kids, as

979
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 1: do you, and my kids, you know, attention span sometimes

980
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: is lacking. You know. They like things quick, like movies quicker,

981
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 1: they like they like you know, just uh you know,

982
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 1: they want action, you know, and some of these books

983
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: take a long time to set up, and you know,

984
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 1: I mean they're long books, and you know, I just

985
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. Generational the generational reading reading habits is

986
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: when one factor in all this, most of the people

987
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 1: read my books are a little bit older. Um. You know,

988
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 1: they're like people in their sixties, like, you know, start

989
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: to really like history. I think it seems like that

990
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: seems to be the turning point because you have to

991
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 1: keep that in mind and you're writing. I kind of

992
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 1: do you have to remember you're writing for Yeah, my

993
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 1: wife was never worried when I went on book to her.

994
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: You know, she's like because most a lot of my

995
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 1: readers are like you can hear them coming before you

996
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 1: see them. And uh, you know it depends generation. Um,

997
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 1: but uh look, I love my readers and whatever age

998
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 1: they are, and uh I do, I do have younger

999
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 1: readers as too, but uh, I just do worry that.

1000
01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: I guess this is just getting off on a tangent.

1001
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: But you know what is happening in publish ng and

1002
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 1: how as we're moving into the digital the digital age. Um.

1003
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 1: I also you know, audio books are are going going

1004
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:12,440
Speaker 1: gangbusters and it's it's an edge. I read one of

1005
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 1: my books, um for an audio book, I don't know,

1006
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 1: did you read your like American Buffalo? Did you read

1007
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 1: after ten years? I did? Yeah, Well it was one

1008
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 1: of the hardest things I've ever done sitting in a studio.

1009
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 1: I I, um, I thought this. This producer said, it's

1010
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: gonna be really hard because, uh, you know, your mouth

1011
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 1: and your throat and your tongue, and you know, it's

1012
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:35,920
Speaker 1: like sitting in a studio for eight, nine, ten hours

1013
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 1: a day reading. He said, it's gonna be like digging

1014
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 1: a six foot hole in the ground with your mouth.

1015
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 1: And that's the way it felt. That's the way it felt.

1016
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 1: But also I wanted to I wanted to change the book. Um,

1017
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I kept saying, who wrote this crap? I

1018
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 1: I you know, I wanted to edit my own stuff

1019
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 1: for for a for a to be read aloud. Uh,

1020
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 1: And they say, you contractually, you cannot change a word

1021
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: of your own book. So you know, just have to

1022
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 1: read exactly what this clown wrote. But it was interesting.

1023
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: So audio books are going great though, I mean, they're

1024
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: selling and they're a bigger and bigger portion of the

1025
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 1: overall sales. Yeah, we just did a thing that went

1026
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 1: direct to audio and won't have a print life. That's

1027
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, but it's not. It's different the book. No, No,

1028
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 1: because it's it's um, it's a it's a collection of

1029
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 1: a bunch of people telling stories about Close Calls. But

1030
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 1: there's sort of like a there's a narrator component to

1031
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 1: it that comes in. But yeah, it was like I mean,

1032
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: you would experienced it very much like a book, but

1033
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: it just was built. You know you're talking about that

1034
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 1: you wrote it, if you were if you knew you

1035
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 1: were going to read it, you might have did some

1036
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 1: things differently just to have it worked that way. This

1037
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 1: is kind of like this project, which is called Close Calls,

1038
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 1: is just leaning into an adopt and adapting the project

1039
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 1: to be suitable to audio rather than having to be

1040
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 1: let's take a thing that was like built for print

1041
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 1: and make it audio like, just make it for audio, like,

1042
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 1: make it perfect for that format. Um. Yeah, And I

1043
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 1: think that that a little that a little bit ties

1044
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 1: into what you're saying about just trying to understand the future. Um.

1045
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 1: And you know, but you've probably learned to live with

1046
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 1: all that kind of fear because you were a magazine

1047
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 1: writer and you had to be nervous about how can

1048
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 1: I continue to pay the bills as a magazine writer,

1049
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 1: which is daunting. You've got to evolve and you know,

1050
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 1: we're living through I think one of the most consequential uh,

1051
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,800
Speaker 1: periods of of change and transition in terms of information.

1052
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: And you know, it's like the Guttenberg Bible or whatever.

1053
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 1: You know, these these moments in history that are so

1054
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 1: important to publishing or two how information is spread around

1055
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 1: the world. Well, we're living through one of those moments

1056
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: now and that's you know, the digital age and everything

1057
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 1: that has come with it with the Internet. Um so everyone,

1058
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 1: all writers are having to evolve with it, trying to

1059
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:02,160
Speaker 1: figure out how to make a living doing this and

1060
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:07,200
Speaker 1: how to make their impact, you know, and you know,

1061
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: it's interesting. It's an interesting time. I think we have

1062
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 1: to look at it that way. It's interesting. Otherwise it's

1063
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 1: just kind of scary because the writers who aren't involving

1064
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 1: are are suffering. Now. I think there's either there's two

1065
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 1: paths you can take. You can take the path of

1066
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 1: resentment and fear, or you can take the path of

1067
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 1: there's a set of things that I want to talk about,

1068
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 1: and I'll continue to talk about those things. I don't

1069
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 1: give a ship what happens. It's like, and you'll find it.

1070
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 1: Take your choice, yeah, and you'll you'll find your own

1071
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 1: area almost yeah, you know, you know, when you were

1072
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 1: mentioned um interesting term for the cold Um during the

1073
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 1: creat there in the battle, the chosen chose what I was.

1074
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 1: I was like like, like chosen, Well, it's it's chose

1075
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 1: sin as is how you how as they say it.

1076
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 1: But and it's a complicated thing because that's a Japanese

1077
01:04:57,440 --> 01:04:59,760
Speaker 1: word even though it's set in Korea. But go ahead.

1078
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 1: You had an interesting term you used, which would be

1079
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:11,200
Speaker 1: a third combatant for the cold Um. And there's things

1080
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 1: that I felt really stupid not even knowing that this happened.

1081
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 1: But to refer back to blood and thunder, Um, I

1082
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 1: didn't know that. During the Mexican American War, I didn't

1083
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 1: realize that we actually invaded that the U. S. Army

1084
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 1: invaded Mexico and made it all way to Mexico City.

1085
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 1: But remember you talk about like part of the strategy

1086
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 1: when someone invades Mexico is you just wait until yellow

1087
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 1: fever hits him or malaria, I can't remember what, and

1088
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 1: like let let disease take its toll, then we'll respond. Yeah,

1089
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 1: that happened. Uh, there was this huge amphibious invasion of

1090
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 1: Vera Cruz, Mexico, and then they marched all the way

1091
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 1: to uh, to Mexico City and held Mexico City for

1092
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 1: over a year. Uh um, occupied it. It's kind of

1093
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 1: a may. I don't think we teach that very much.

1094
01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 1: I was. I remember, like, how like, how do I

1095
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: not know that we actually did that? Yeah? Yeah, we

1096
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 1: invaded their borders, you know, before they and you know

1097
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: there's so much news now about of course crossing the borders,

1098
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 1: and you know it's like it's it's a murky, messy

1099
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 1: history for sure. But but Carson kid, Carson Um and

1100
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 1: Blood and thunder, you know, is so mixed up in

1101
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:31,720
Speaker 1: it all because he's married to a Mexican woman, a

1102
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 1: New Mexican woman, uh from Taos, New Mexico. And uh,

1103
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 1: he sort of sees all sides of it. And that's

1104
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:40,720
Speaker 1: why he's such an interesting cat, is that you know,

1105
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: he's conflicted. He's his first wife was a rapp Yes,

1106
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:49,080
Speaker 1: I had a child, they had two children, actually died.

1107
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 1: He like brought his his child to be raised elsewhere. Um. Yeah,

1108
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 1: like the and you think these people like like this

1109
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 1: like American figure, but most of the people around him

1110
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 1: in his life wouldn't have self identified as Americans. I

1111
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 1: mean that that idea hadn't really taken shape where he was,

1112
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 1: including him. I mean, he was a runaway. He tried

1113
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: to get away from America. He ran away on the

1114
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:19,440
Speaker 1: Santa Fe Trail from Uh, from Missouri, and UH kind

1115
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 1: of never looked back. You know. He fell in love

1116
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 1: with the West. And as you mentioned, his first wife

1117
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 1: was a Rappaho and he lived with her tribe and

1118
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:31,240
Speaker 1: spoke her language, and we always talked about it as

1119
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 1: being his favorite The favorite part of his life was

1120
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 1: was those years living with the Rappaho and being a

1121
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:41,959
Speaker 1: mountain man. And but you know, eventually he after she died,

1122
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:45,120
Speaker 1: he married a young woman from Taos, and then he

1123
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:49,320
Speaker 1: started a different life. He converted to Catholicism, and he

1124
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:53,880
Speaker 1: spoke Spanish and in the house and raised their kids

1125
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:57,480
Speaker 1: speaking Spanish, and you know, he lived that life. He

1126
01:07:57,960 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 1: is like you know, as you say, Forrest Gump, but

1127
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:03,120
Speaker 1: you know, he just keeps He has a cat with

1128
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 1: nine lives. He just organically morphs into the next guy,

1129
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 1: and then the next guy and the next guy. And

1130
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 1: by following his the trajectory of his life, you can

1131
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 1: begin to really understand all the different forces that shaped

1132
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:18,640
Speaker 1: the American West. And that's that's really why I wrote it.

1133
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:24,719
Speaker 1: There are two things in there that that that really

1134
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 1: strikes me in a way of just like understanding American

1135
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:29,320
Speaker 1: history is I talked about the the idea of like

1136
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 1: being American being kind of a flimsy notion for a

1137
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 1: lot of the UM a lot of people who are

1138
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:38,840
Speaker 1: in the Southwest, Like it wasn't like clearly defined, right.

1139
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:42,519
Speaker 1: It was kind of like, you know, there's this government

1140
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:45,720
Speaker 1: that's far away in Mexico and they exert some level

1141
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,719
Speaker 1: of influence on this portion. And then also there's this governor,

1142
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 1: there's this government in Washington and they're exerting some level

1143
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 1: of influence. But it all seems very abstract to try

1144
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 1: to understand, like you know who to be with. But

1145
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:02,040
Speaker 1: you can talk about when like the U. S. Army

1146
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 1: had people who had recently emigrated to America from Europe

1147
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:11,439
Speaker 1: and they're leader they're in the U. S. Army, and

1148
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 1: their allegiance as Americans is also like fairly flimsy, and

1149
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 1: it's not a big part of the book. You make

1150
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:20,320
Speaker 1: a mention of a group of um Irish Catholics who

1151
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:23,679
Speaker 1: are in the U. S. Army waging war in Mexico

1152
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:29,960
Speaker 1: and they feel conflicted between being a US citizen, but

1153
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:35,560
Speaker 1: fighting against Catholics, that's right. And they leave the U. S.

1154
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:38,640
Speaker 1: Army because they feel like they have like more of

1155
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 1: a sort of religious obligation. Two Roman Catholics, and then

1156
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:50,040
Speaker 1: they leave to fight against the U. S. Army, And

1157
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:51,760
Speaker 1: then the U. S. Army catches some of them in

1158
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:56,360
Speaker 1: hangs fifty of them at once. They didn't tell you

1159
01:09:56,360 --> 01:10:00,800
Speaker 1: about that in history. Yeah, Like there's a painting of

1160
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:02,800
Speaker 1: it in the in the Book of that Day when

1161
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 1: they hung those fifty people like man m hmm, just

1162
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:11,440
Speaker 1: like just just I don't know, a sort of ruthlessness

1163
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:15,559
Speaker 1: that existed then. Yeah, Yeah, it was a different obviously,

1164
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:18,120
Speaker 1: a very different time, and I think the notion of

1165
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:21,160
Speaker 1: what is an American was evolving then, you know, very

1166
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 1: very much. All of a sudden, all of a sudden,

1167
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 1: there was this western third of the continent that was

1168
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:31,960
Speaker 1: kind of up for grabs. Uh. You know, I kind

1169
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 1: of described it as one of the largest land grabs

1170
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:37,640
Speaker 1: in in in history. You know, like all of that

1171
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:40,679
Speaker 1: terrain about the size of continental Europe was was taken

1172
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:45,840
Speaker 1: uh in in one generation really in a four year

1173
01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 1: period um in the eighteen forties. Uh. You just well,

1174
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:53,599
Speaker 1: we'll take that we wanted all people in the time

1175
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 1: that we're involved in even acknowledging that they were in

1176
01:10:57,160 --> 01:11:00,880
Speaker 1: a moral they're a little bit of shaky ground, yes,

1177
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:04,360
Speaker 1: and and that's why you know, people like Kid Carson,

1178
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:07,400
Speaker 1: you know, you know, it's like they needed folk heroes

1179
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:10,639
Speaker 1: back east to sort of begin to justify this land grab.

1180
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 1: They needed great stories of plucky guys who were already

1181
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:19,320
Speaker 1: there out west. And uh, there was all these books

1182
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:22,879
Speaker 1: that came out um that were kind of the proto Western's,

1183
01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:25,679
Speaker 1: early westerns that were called Blood and Thunders. That's where

1184
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:28,000
Speaker 1: the title of my book comes from. Blood Thunders were

1185
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 1: these pulp westerns, and they always had some kind of

1186
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 1: hero who often was Kit carson Um. Kind of now

1187
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 1: we're getting into the fictional Kit carson Um. They said

1188
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 1: he was a you know, six foot eight and arian

1189
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 1: and blue eyed and he got all the ladies and

1190
01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 1: win the day. And you know, uh, that wasn't what

1191
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:50,600
Speaker 1: Kick Carson was really like at all. He was like

1192
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 1: five ft four, five ft five, awkward voice, I don't

1193
01:11:56,880 --> 01:11:58,960
Speaker 1: know about that, but a little twinkle in his eye.

1194
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:01,960
Speaker 1: He was mischievous, but he was just to not you know,

1195
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:08,240
Speaker 1: he spoke seven Indian languages. He was a lifelong, devoted

1196
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:12,400
Speaker 1: friend to many Indian tribes. Don't go be wrong. He

1197
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:16,000
Speaker 1: had an amazing life. But he wasn't this pulp hero

1198
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 1: that seemingly people back East writers back East needed to

1199
01:12:20,520 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 1: uh to celebrate. You know. He was this uh kind

1200
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:32,760
Speaker 1: of ordinary guy who was extremely loyal. Uh. I mean

1201
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 1: it'd be great if you could have interviewed him on

1202
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:36,839
Speaker 1: your show here, because I mean he was the ultimate

1203
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 1: meat eater, you know, like he he knew how to

1204
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:42,920
Speaker 1: he knew how to hunt, and he knew how to fish,

1205
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:46,439
Speaker 1: and he knew he knew how to butcher an animal

1206
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 1: and set up a camp and strike a camp, and

1207
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:51,760
Speaker 1: he knew win to fight and win to bluff and

1208
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:54,879
Speaker 1: you know, he just had all this sort of panoply

1209
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 1: of skills um that you know got him through a

1210
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:04,360
Speaker 1: whole life living out here. And uh but he but

1211
01:13:04,479 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 1: he wasn't that that that sort of um cape crusader

1212
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:12,320
Speaker 1: mythic hero that was that was the protagonist of these

1213
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:14,759
Speaker 1: Blood and thunderbooks. Back East did a lot of running

1214
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:19,720
Speaker 1: away for that to be true, right right right? You

1215
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 1: know what when when to fight and went out to fight?

1216
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 1: Yeah he he, uh he did. I mean, and that

1217
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:28,679
Speaker 1: was one of his great skills, was, you know, sensing

1218
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 1: the situation. There was one particular battle in the Panhandle

1219
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:34,920
Speaker 1: of Texas at a place called Adobe Walls where he

1220
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:39,519
Speaker 1: was completely surrounded by Comanches and uh he in a

1221
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:45,280
Speaker 1: small army and mostly an army of other Native American tribes. Actually, um,

1222
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:47,439
Speaker 1: but he realized he fought with the youths a lot.

1223
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:49,439
Speaker 1: He fought with the youths a lot, like you'd bring up.

1224
01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:52,639
Speaker 1: They traveled with them, they did, and they were his scouts.

1225
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:56,680
Speaker 1: But um, he in that particular situation just figured out

1226
01:13:56,680 --> 01:14:00,880
Speaker 1: a way to get extricate, extricate himself from it. Add

1227
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:04,120
Speaker 1: it was, it was another retreat story. I guess I'm

1228
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 1: kind of attracted to them. But he lived to fight

1229
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:11,519
Speaker 1: another day. He figured out that, you know, this could

1230
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:15,760
Speaker 1: have been Custard Custer times ten, you know, but he

1231
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:21,599
Speaker 1: he was smart enough and uh cool under pressure enough too,

1232
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:25,799
Speaker 1: to remove himself from that particular situation. Are you familiar

1233
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:29,720
Speaker 1: with that. There's the first Battle of Adobe Walls and

1234
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 1: the second battle there too. He was involved in the

1235
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 1: first one. Yeah. Did you did you visit that site? Yeah?

1236
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:38,760
Speaker 1: I haven't been there. Yeah. Yeah. The second one was

1237
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:42,080
Speaker 1: a much minor deal, was Buffalo hunters like hide hunters

1238
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:44,760
Speaker 1: versus I think But I believe the commanche in Kiowa again, Yeah,

1239
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 1: I think so in that same setup. How how do

1240
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:52,960
Speaker 1: you approach, um, coming to a conclusion? UM? In your job,

1241
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:55,639
Speaker 1: you gotta suss through all these sources, many of which

1242
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:58,360
Speaker 1: are not around today, certainly when you're talking about kid

1243
01:14:58,439 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 1: Carson uh. Um, but you can very well come to

1244
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:07,680
Speaker 1: a conclusion that can be refuted, uh even the next year. Right,

1245
01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:11,040
Speaker 1: Like we always talk about advances and technology and new

1246
01:15:11,160 --> 01:15:14,040
Speaker 1: findings and going back and looking at that thing in

1247
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:16,960
Speaker 1: the drawer with the new technology that we have to

1248
01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:20,160
Speaker 1: have today. It happens, go through tons of stories like

1249
01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:22,360
Speaker 1: that all the time. UM. But you kind of brought

1250
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 1: it up in your UM when we're talking about James

1251
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:29,120
Speaker 1: Earl Ray right, like you decided that that he did

1252
01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 1: it right, because there's a whole bunch of other folks

1253
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:35,360
Speaker 1: out there that think that conspiracy, big conspiracy, and a

1254
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:38,439
Speaker 1: bunch of other things. So I guess I'm kind of

1255
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:43,599
Speaker 1: interested in in UM, if you have a certain approach

1256
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:47,439
Speaker 1: to coming to a conclusion with either a historical figure

1257
01:15:48,160 --> 01:15:54,320
Speaker 1: or a battle, and UM if now that you you

1258
01:15:54,479 --> 01:16:00,800
Speaker 1: have such a deep, um, you know, library of books

1259
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:03,519
Speaker 1: that you've written, if if you've come across people who

1260
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:08,439
Speaker 1: are supportive or not supportive, if you if you're working

1261
01:16:08,479 --> 01:16:10,560
Speaker 1: on the next story because you they don't like the

1262
01:16:10,600 --> 01:16:14,160
Speaker 1: conclusion that you came to. Well, absolutely, I mean, you

1263
01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 1: know you're making a million little judgment calls all the

1264
01:16:16,520 --> 01:16:19,200
Speaker 1: time when you write a piece of narrative history. You know,

1265
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:22,800
Speaker 1: you are you you have to unfortunately and and uh,

1266
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:25,439
Speaker 1: you make mistakes sometimes and I think you know it's

1267
01:16:25,479 --> 01:16:30,639
Speaker 1: certainly um uh it's an art, very muddy, messy art,

1268
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 1: not a science. UM. And you have to be open

1269
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:36,560
Speaker 1: minded like that maybe you were wrong. Uh, you know,

1270
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 1: maybe you have to revisit a subject sometime down the

1271
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:41,840
Speaker 1: line and say I got that wrong. But in the

1272
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:44,840
Speaker 1: end you just gotta be it's fair and as meticulous

1273
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:48,960
Speaker 1: and as uh you know, try as hard as you

1274
01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:51,639
Speaker 1: can to put yourself in those times and not judge

1275
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 1: them by you know, today's standards of of UM politics

1276
01:16:57,040 --> 01:17:01,120
Speaker 1: or you know, sensibilities that we have today. UM. And

1277
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:04,320
Speaker 1: uh read as many things as you can read, and

1278
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:07,400
Speaker 1: you know, try to understand the times and give as

1279
01:17:07,479 --> 01:17:13,840
Speaker 1: much context as possible. UM. James were way. Interestingly, you know,

1280
01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:20,960
Speaker 1: I did not reckon with the the ferocity of this

1281
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:25,320
Speaker 1: of the conspiracy people UM when I wrote that book. Uh,

1282
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:28,920
Speaker 1: you know they're there. There's a small but very vocal

1283
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:34,000
Speaker 1: group of people who who live just you know, live

1284
01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:38,840
Speaker 1: their life around conspiracies. And and it's a conspiracy. Well

1285
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:41,639
Speaker 1: that one, but often it's that one is often tied

1286
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:45,519
Speaker 1: to JFK and RFK at least at least those three. Um.

1287
01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 1: But you know, like I knew they were out there,

1288
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:51,960
Speaker 1: and I knew they wouldn't like my book because I

1289
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:56,200
Speaker 1: happened to have decided independently that Ray pulled the trigger.

1290
01:17:57,200 --> 01:18:00,320
Speaker 1: But you know, wow, they are they hate eat me,

1291
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:04,680
Speaker 1: they hate my book. They I am the enemy. You know.

1292
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:07,719
Speaker 1: They actually have said things like Hampton Sides is obviously

1293
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:13,040
Speaker 1: a name that was invented by the CIA UM and uh,

1294
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:16,120
Speaker 1: you know he's obviously your previous works were all part

1295
01:18:16,160 --> 01:18:18,720
Speaker 1: of the same scheme. Like what they'll do is they'll

1296
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:22,599
Speaker 1: establish him as a prominent author. I was groomed from

1297
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:25,640
Speaker 1: an early will he then I was groomed from an

1298
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:28,800
Speaker 1: early age to write this book. And uh, or it's

1299
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:31,600
Speaker 1: just a made up name. I'm not even it's not

1300
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:36,760
Speaker 1: even really me. It was written by some committee or something. Um. Oh,

1301
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:40,400
Speaker 1: I mean I'm always approached by these people who at

1302
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:45,519
Speaker 1: my talks about about that book. Uh that usually these

1303
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:50,080
Speaker 1: are they almost always have two pays um or you know,

1304
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:53,160
Speaker 1: really bad Dan Dreffer. You know, just something about them

1305
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:55,519
Speaker 1: is off. And you can tell, oh, here he comes here,

1306
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:58,560
Speaker 1: he's gonna he's coming at me now with you're not

1307
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:00,720
Speaker 1: even done talking, you know, the that's going to be

1308
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:03,439
Speaker 1: the guy that Yeah, and so you know, it's like

1309
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:05,320
Speaker 1: they didn't It's not about whether they liked my book

1310
01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:07,519
Speaker 1: or the way I wrote it or or or where

1311
01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:11,280
Speaker 1: the uh you know, did I use nice metaphors or something.

1312
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:13,840
Speaker 1: It's that they hate my guts because I came to

1313
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:16,880
Speaker 1: a conclusion they don't agree with. And so conspiracy people

1314
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:19,840
Speaker 1: are And I actually went to one of their I

1315
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:21,599
Speaker 1: went kind of undercover one time and went to one

1316
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:24,559
Speaker 1: of their gatherings, uh research, Yes, yeah, I just kind

1317
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:26,800
Speaker 1: of want to understand who these folks are. And you know,

1318
01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:31,479
Speaker 1: everything is a conspiracy. Everything is connected. Everything you know,

1319
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:35,680
Speaker 1: it's connected back to j Edgar Hoover and and uh

1320
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:41,360
Speaker 1: the world you know, world order, you know, whatever the

1321
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:46,880
Speaker 1: black helicopters, you know, Um and uh, nine eleven didn't

1322
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:48,840
Speaker 1: really happen the way we thought it did because you

1323
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:51,559
Speaker 1: know Bush ordered it all and you know he knew

1324
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 1: about it from the start, and you know it's like whoa,

1325
01:19:54,120 --> 01:19:59,040
Speaker 1: you just take some deep dives into into this alternative history.

1326
01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:03,440
Speaker 1: It's really it's fascinating and I think ultimately kind of pathetic.

1327
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:07,599
Speaker 1: But um, these these people live and breathe. It's it's

1328
01:20:07,640 --> 01:20:09,360
Speaker 1: part of their is a big part of their identity.

1329
01:20:10,240 --> 01:20:13,160
Speaker 1: You know. Earlier I said there was two this is

1330
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:16,559
Speaker 1: my last question about Kick Carson. But um, I said,

1331
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:17,960
Speaker 1: there's two things that really stood out to me, and

1332
01:20:18,040 --> 01:20:21,560
Speaker 1: there uh one of them being I brought up the

1333
01:20:21,600 --> 01:20:26,120
Speaker 1: one about the sort of um developing sense of like

1334
01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:28,960
Speaker 1: American nous, you know, like people understand what that meant,

1335
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 1: and um that that it wasn't as sort of it

1336
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: wasn't like is as clean as we now imagine it,

1337
01:20:35,360 --> 01:20:39,120
Speaker 1: like how you identify your your national identity in those areas.

1338
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:46,920
Speaker 1: But the second thing was how overt you mentioned earlier

1339
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:51,679
Speaker 1: he was he wasn't responsible for um bringing the Navajo

1340
01:20:52,160 --> 01:20:56,320
Speaker 1: into reservation confinement and there had been a vaccine problem

1341
01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:59,200
Speaker 1: for hundreds of years, like the the war with New

1342
01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:03,120
Speaker 1: Mexicans in the Navajo, and then they finally put the task,

1343
01:21:03,200 --> 01:21:05,920
Speaker 1: they got serious about it and put the task to

1344
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:10,320
Speaker 1: kick carson Um. Can can you talk a little bit

1345
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:13,760
Speaker 1: about just like that the way he engaged and I

1346
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:17,960
Speaker 1: think he used the term like total warfare, scorched earth policy.

1347
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:21,520
Speaker 1: Can can you real quick walk through like what exactly

1348
01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:25,280
Speaker 1: that guy did to accomplish that task? Yeah? So so

1349
01:21:25,439 --> 01:21:27,599
Speaker 1: like for hundreds of years there had been this kind

1350
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:29,880
Speaker 1: of low grade war between the New Mexicans and the

1351
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:33,759
Speaker 1: DNA that Navajo where they were stealing each other's women

1352
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:38,040
Speaker 1: and children and cattle and sheep and uh, it was

1353
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:40,439
Speaker 1: just horrible. It was a horrible existence on both sides,

1354
01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:43,760
Speaker 1: like a slave trade slave between the two of them,

1355
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:47,599
Speaker 1: And and you couldn't leave your house along the Rio

1356
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:51,920
Speaker 1: Grand without fear of being kidnapped and vice versa. These

1357
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:54,360
Speaker 1: these Denay would be doing their thing in places like

1358
01:21:54,479 --> 01:21:58,720
Speaker 1: Kenyan de Shay and suddenly a slave raid would come

1359
01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:02,200
Speaker 1: from you, a Spanish slave raid would come and take

1360
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:05,479
Speaker 1: take women and children, and it was it was a

1361
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:08,680
Speaker 1: horrible existence for everyone, I think. And so when the

1362
01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:12,599
Speaker 1: Americans showed up during the Mexican War and took over. Um.

1363
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:17,840
Speaker 1: They looked at this problem and began to figure out,

1364
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:19,840
Speaker 1: you know, how do we solve it, how do we

1365
01:22:19,920 --> 01:22:23,759
Speaker 1: stop this back and forth stealing of each other's people

1366
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:28,600
Speaker 1: and cattle, um. And you know, they zeroed in on

1367
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:31,280
Speaker 1: the didn't A because they were very successful raiders. They

1368
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:37,120
Speaker 1: were they were a thriving, huge culture to the west

1369
01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:43,240
Speaker 1: of the Rio Grand Uh. They were. They were expert raiders.

1370
01:22:43,479 --> 01:22:46,280
Speaker 1: And they decided, this is the first group we're really

1371
01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:48,000
Speaker 1: gonna have to go after. You know. Of course the

1372
01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:52,000
Speaker 1: Comanches were also raiders, and so were the Apache um

1373
01:22:53,320 --> 01:23:00,400
Speaker 1: and so so there was this general General uh Henry Carlton,

1374
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:04,920
Speaker 1: who James Henry Carlton, who decided once and for all

1375
01:23:05,120 --> 01:23:07,960
Speaker 1: that we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna really

1376
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:10,880
Speaker 1: go after the Nova and we're gonna move them to

1377
01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:14,640
Speaker 1: the Pacos River, and we're gonna rewire their whole society

1378
01:23:14,760 --> 01:23:19,600
Speaker 1: and make them stop roaming around and teach him the

1379
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:24,200
Speaker 1: big Christian farmers living in like apartment buildings and and

1380
01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:29,360
Speaker 1: and and dense areas, uh and you know, make them

1381
01:23:29,400 --> 01:23:34,639
Speaker 1: more like us basically. Uh. And and he decided this guy,

1382
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:38,720
Speaker 1: General Carlton that kick. Carson had to had to lead

1383
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:41,800
Speaker 1: the fight because it was going to be the culminating

1384
01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:45,120
Speaker 1: act of his career. And Carson very much did not

1385
01:23:45,240 --> 01:23:50,000
Speaker 1: want to do this. At first. He he rejected overtures.

1386
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:53,640
Speaker 1: He actually resigned from the army at one point. Uh,

1387
01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:57,040
Speaker 1: but in the end he was convinced to do it.

1388
01:23:57,240 --> 01:23:59,560
Speaker 1: And how he did it, you know, it's like a

1389
01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:05,799
Speaker 1: couple of years before Sherman's famous scorched earth campaign against

1390
01:24:05,880 --> 01:24:11,920
Speaker 1: the South, Carson lead a scorched earth campaign against the

1391
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:14,640
Speaker 1: novel that was every bit as brutal. Um the way

1392
01:24:14,680 --> 01:24:17,439
Speaker 1: he did it. He realized he couldn't fight the novel hoo,

1393
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:20,879
Speaker 1: because they didn't fight in that any kind of traditional

1394
01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:26,840
Speaker 1: way with lines of with with you know, um, you know,

1395
01:24:27,320 --> 01:24:30,760
Speaker 1: basically they scattered, you know, and they not The who

1396
01:24:30,840 --> 01:24:33,320
Speaker 1: country is so conducive to scattering. You know, there's just

1397
01:24:33,479 --> 01:24:37,680
Speaker 1: endless canyons and caves and um. It's so Carson was

1398
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:40,240
Speaker 1: frustrated he couldn't fight them, so he decided to fight

1399
01:24:40,560 --> 01:24:44,560
Speaker 1: their land. He you know, he killed every horse and

1400
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:50,680
Speaker 1: every cow and every sheep, and he burned every cornfield

1401
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:55,360
Speaker 1: and every peach tree, and uh, it was a war

1402
01:24:55,479 --> 01:24:58,160
Speaker 1: on the land. And um, I remember you're talking about

1403
01:24:58,200 --> 01:25:02,360
Speaker 1: like chopping down thought of orchard trees. Yeah, that's the

1404
01:25:02,439 --> 01:25:06,760
Speaker 1: famous part of the campaign in into Canyon Kenyon D. Shay.

1405
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:10,599
Speaker 1: He also like had his men guard the water sources

1406
01:25:10,640 --> 01:25:13,040
Speaker 1: and the salt sources, and you know, it was just

1407
01:25:13,200 --> 01:25:15,160
Speaker 1: the systematic thing. And so you have this guy who

1408
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:18,320
Speaker 1: very very much didn't want to do this. It was

1409
01:25:18,439 --> 01:25:24,400
Speaker 1: very reluctant, but somehow once he began, he turned out

1410
01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:28,280
Speaker 1: to be really good at this kind of warfare. Um

1411
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:31,439
Speaker 1: and and it kind of went against so many of

1412
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:35,559
Speaker 1: his instincts, and yet he led this campaign. He understood

1413
01:25:35,560 --> 01:25:38,280
Speaker 1: the landscape like no one did though, you know, and

1414
01:25:38,360 --> 01:25:41,080
Speaker 1: it worked, I mean and within a within a year,

1415
01:25:41,400 --> 01:25:44,720
Speaker 1: it took about a year. They began to starve, and

1416
01:25:44,800 --> 01:25:47,519
Speaker 1: they began to surrender in ones and twos and then

1417
01:25:47,720 --> 01:25:51,439
Speaker 1: dozens and then scores than hundreds and hundreds and thousands.

1418
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:55,280
Speaker 1: This was one of the largest tribes in the North America.

1419
01:25:55,560 --> 01:26:01,320
Speaker 1: And he brought them to their knees and in the end,

1420
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:03,360
Speaker 1: it was like they came to him, and they came

1421
01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:04,840
Speaker 1: to him. I'd be like if you took a town,

1422
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:06,519
Speaker 1: like if you imagine today, you took a town and

1423
01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:09,080
Speaker 1: you came in and said like, okay, you destroy the

1424
01:26:09,160 --> 01:26:12,559
Speaker 1: highway coming into the town on either end, blow up

1425
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:16,240
Speaker 1: all the gas stations, burn all the grocery stores. Right

1426
01:26:16,720 --> 01:26:18,720
Speaker 1: then you sit back and be like, give it a minute, boys,

1427
01:26:18,720 --> 01:26:22,320
Speaker 1: they'll be out. And eventually, you know, it's just like

1428
01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:25,040
Speaker 1: and then they were marched on this kind of thing

1429
01:26:25,120 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 1: that's often compared to the Trail of Tears of the Cherokee.

1430
01:26:28,120 --> 01:26:30,360
Speaker 1: But they were marched to this place on the Picos,

1431
01:26:31,040 --> 01:26:33,160
Speaker 1: and they tried to make it work, but it was

1432
01:26:33,280 --> 01:26:36,439
Speaker 1: so alien. It was such an alien environment to the Navajo,

1433
01:26:37,080 --> 01:26:43,120
Speaker 1: you know, just just in terms of geography, but also

1434
01:26:43,160 --> 01:26:44,519
Speaker 1: in terms of you know, it's like there was just

1435
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:47,840
Speaker 1: nothing recognizable out there. It was like Mesquite and you know,

1436
01:26:48,040 --> 01:26:52,160
Speaker 1: just this kind of semi arid desert without all of

1437
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:56,320
Speaker 1: those amazing rock formations that the not that that that DNA.

1438
01:26:56,920 --> 01:26:59,600
Speaker 1: You know, we we think of the Dnay Country and

1439
01:26:59,640 --> 01:27:03,080
Speaker 1: we think ship Rock and Monument Valley and all these

1440
01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:08,080
Speaker 1: amazing places. That this was just this flat, boring swatch

1441
01:27:08,160 --> 01:27:09,880
Speaker 1: a land on the Pacos. And and it turned out

1442
01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:12,240
Speaker 1: there wasn't enough firewood to keep them warm. There wasn't

1443
01:27:12,360 --> 01:27:15,800
Speaker 1: enough clean water for them to drink and UH, and

1444
01:27:15,840 --> 01:27:19,240
Speaker 1: they didn't want to be congested in a tight little area. UM.

1445
01:27:19,520 --> 01:27:22,960
Speaker 1: And they just it was like they suffered. The tribe

1446
01:27:22,960 --> 01:27:27,040
Speaker 1: suffered a psychological breakdown. You know, It's like they wouldn't plant,

1447
01:27:27,200 --> 01:27:31,360
Speaker 1: they gave up. They were morose and UH, diseases took

1448
01:27:31,400 --> 01:27:35,280
Speaker 1: over and a third of the Navajo died and in

1449
01:27:35,400 --> 01:27:40,880
Speaker 1: a few short years, and Carson understood this wasn't working. Um.

1450
01:27:41,479 --> 01:27:45,680
Speaker 1: General Carlton refused to admit that. UH. And finally it

1451
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 1: took General Sherman after the Civil War. General Sherman came

1452
01:27:49,960 --> 01:27:52,960
Speaker 1: out all the way to the Pacos and saw what

1453
01:27:53,160 --> 01:27:57,719
Speaker 1: was going on and realized that this huge experiment had failed.

1454
01:27:57,960 --> 01:28:02,560
Speaker 1: And he eventually sent them back to Navajo country. And

1455
01:28:02,840 --> 01:28:05,240
Speaker 1: it's one of the very few examples where people were

1456
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:07,920
Speaker 1: you know, tribe was removed from its homeland but then

1457
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:13,880
Speaker 1: returned to their homeland. UH. Somewhat bitter sweet, um, somewhat

1458
01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:16,839
Speaker 1: happy ending for the Nava Navajo after all this tragedy,

1459
01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:28,559
Speaker 1: that they were actually allowed to go home. When you're

1460
01:28:29,720 --> 01:28:34,040
Speaker 1: looking at your book subjects and thinking about what you're

1461
01:28:34,040 --> 01:28:36,640
Speaker 1: gonna do, uh, you were talking about things having things

1462
01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:39,000
Speaker 1: that you need to check, you know, sort of the

1463
01:28:39,479 --> 01:28:41,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, I can't remember what term you used,

1464
01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:43,320
Speaker 1: but there's sort of a yeah. I mean, you know,

1465
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:45,559
Speaker 1: it's got to have good characters, just have good plot,

1466
01:28:45,760 --> 01:28:48,080
Speaker 1: good structure, you know, all the things that a good

1467
01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:53,840
Speaker 1: story needs to have. Do you, um, is death like

1468
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:59,560
Speaker 1: death's big part of like misery and death? Are you

1469
01:28:59,760 --> 01:29:01,720
Speaker 1: are are you aware of that component or is that

1470
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:04,720
Speaker 1: just sort of like uh that just happened. Yeah, well,

1471
01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:06,280
Speaker 1: I mean do you go like it has to have

1472
01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:10,320
Speaker 1: it has the about life and death? I suppose. I mean,

1473
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:15,040
Speaker 1: I I don't think that I'm you know, uh, gratuitously

1474
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:22,240
Speaker 1: depressed or looking for depressed subjects just just for the

1475
01:29:22,320 --> 01:29:26,320
Speaker 1: sake of of of making you know, making people um,

1476
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:31,080
Speaker 1: you know down, you know. But I do think that

1477
01:29:31,439 --> 01:29:34,000
Speaker 1: you do have to have highs and lows, and a

1478
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:36,920
Speaker 1: good narrative needs to have high stakes and it needs

1479
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:40,600
Speaker 1: to you know, you need to care about there the

1480
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:44,200
Speaker 1: character's fate, whether they're gonna live or die, whether they're

1481
01:29:44,200 --> 01:29:49,479
Speaker 1: going to survive uh and um uh yeah, I think

1482
01:29:49,600 --> 01:29:52,519
Speaker 1: a good narrative has history, has to has to have

1483
01:29:52,640 --> 01:29:58,000
Speaker 1: that component. Um, your felt, Little Santa Fean Corman McCarthy

1484
01:29:58,560 --> 01:30:02,080
Speaker 1: talks about you know this is I'm paraphrasing, but something

1485
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:03,400
Speaker 1: to the effect of that. You know, if it's not

1486
01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:08,000
Speaker 1: about death, it's not important. It's about how you how

1487
01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:10,880
Speaker 1: people face death, and how they get through an ordeal

1488
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:14,880
Speaker 1: and how they you know, all the combination of traits

1489
01:30:15,680 --> 01:30:20,960
Speaker 1: that they summoned to to survive, uh, an extreme situation.

1490
01:30:21,080 --> 01:30:22,960
Speaker 1: I guess that's a theme that runs through almost all

1491
01:30:23,000 --> 01:30:25,560
Speaker 1: my books. Um, for some reason, it just is a

1492
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:28,200
Speaker 1: theme I keep returning to. And the truth is, you know,

1493
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:31,519
Speaker 1: like a story and where in which everybody is happy

1494
01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:34,040
Speaker 1: and everything goes well and there is no adversity and

1495
01:30:34,200 --> 01:30:37,680
Speaker 1: and no one dies is rarely a good story. I'm sorry, Um,

1496
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:41,680
Speaker 1: Sometimes what's the number one best seller? That everybody had

1497
01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:44,760
Speaker 1: everything they needed and lived happily every after and we

1498
01:30:44,840 --> 01:30:48,559
Speaker 1: started at a spot where they were still happy. I mean,

1499
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:50,680
Speaker 1: there are a lot of stories that don't involve a

1500
01:30:50,760 --> 01:30:54,439
Speaker 1: lot of death. I guess like a political writer is

1501
01:30:54,520 --> 01:30:56,960
Speaker 1: writing about, right, I don't know, if you're reporting on

1502
01:30:57,080 --> 01:31:00,240
Speaker 1: a campaign, Yeah, they just stopped before they get there.

1503
01:31:01,120 --> 01:31:04,080
Speaker 1: We know this will eventually have this implication. Imagine these

1504
01:31:04,120 --> 01:31:09,200
Speaker 1: people all be dead, you know, tell us about tell

1505
01:31:09,280 --> 01:31:13,760
Speaker 1: us about how you got on, um, how you got

1506
01:31:13,800 --> 01:31:15,600
Speaker 1: on a Captain Cook? Like what like, how did that

1507
01:31:15,680 --> 01:31:20,600
Speaker 1: wind up grabbing you? Well? Um, I uh, I've been

1508
01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:22,160
Speaker 1: thinking about him for a long time because of that

1509
01:31:22,640 --> 01:31:24,960
Speaker 1: in the Kingdom of Ice story, which is you know,

1510
01:31:25,960 --> 01:31:30,920
Speaker 1: set in Alaska and in Siberia, and the only other

1511
01:31:30,960 --> 01:31:33,800
Speaker 1: person really tried to do what the Jeanette did was

1512
01:31:34,360 --> 01:31:38,040
Speaker 1: Captain Cook. Um. Captain Cook charted the entire coast of

1513
01:31:38,080 --> 01:31:42,080
Speaker 1: Alaska and on his third voyage, and you know, he's

1514
01:31:42,120 --> 01:31:45,640
Speaker 1: mostly associated with the South Seas, but Captain Cook was

1515
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:49,599
Speaker 1: all over Alaska. Like we had our little thing where

1516
01:31:49,600 --> 01:31:52,200
Speaker 1: we kept going past where he died fish in a

1517
01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:55,200
Speaker 1: WAYI yeah, So then I got to read that night,

1518
01:31:55,280 --> 01:31:56,920
Speaker 1: we'd get done fish and I'd go read about Captain

1519
01:31:56,920 --> 01:32:00,400
Speaker 1: Cook a little bit. But um almost seems like almost

1520
01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:05,400
Speaker 1: like casually moving between like he'd go to Alaska then

1521
01:32:05,439 --> 01:32:08,439
Speaker 1: wind up out in the south the back to Alaska, right, which,

1522
01:32:08,560 --> 01:32:11,840
Speaker 1: interestingly enough, is what a ton of people in Alaska

1523
01:32:11,960 --> 01:32:16,799
Speaker 1: and it was such a strong connection between those two places.

1524
01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:19,799
Speaker 1: That's one of my brother. My brother lives in Alaska,

1525
01:32:19,840 --> 01:32:21,800
Speaker 1: and he's like, you know how it was because we

1526
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:23,600
Speaker 1: grew up in Michigan, because you know how it is

1527
01:32:23,640 --> 01:32:31,519
Speaker 1: with Michigan people in Florida. He goes in Alaska. That's why. Yeah, well,

1528
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:35,519
Speaker 1: you know, part somewhat facetiously, My wife said that, uh,

1529
01:32:35,920 --> 01:32:37,880
Speaker 1: you know, it's like you do all these books, like

1530
01:32:37,960 --> 01:32:39,720
Speaker 1: you did this book that's set in Siberia, and you

1531
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:42,280
Speaker 1: did books setting the kind of remote part of the Philippines,

1532
01:32:42,400 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 1: and you know, why don't you pick a book that

1533
01:32:45,080 --> 01:32:47,160
Speaker 1: involves travel to places I would like to go to?

1534
01:32:47,800 --> 01:32:52,519
Speaker 1: Uh and we go together. And she was kind of kidding,

1535
01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:55,680
Speaker 1: but she was not really kidding. And I said, well,

1536
01:32:57,000 --> 01:32:59,960
Speaker 1: I've kind of fished out the old notes from previous

1537
01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:03,960
Speaker 1: book ideas and I said, well, how about Captain Cook? Um? Uh.

1538
01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:07,160
Speaker 1: She's like, well, where did that involve going to? And

1539
01:33:07,280 --> 01:33:14,200
Speaker 1: I said, well, you know, um, Tahiti, French Polynesia, you know, uh, Donga,

1540
01:33:15,040 --> 01:33:21,840
Speaker 1: New Zealand, Alaska, lots of other places. She's like, okay, bingo,

1541
01:33:21,960 --> 01:33:23,560
Speaker 1: that's it. That's the one. But but you know, I

1542
01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:26,519
Speaker 1: started looking at Kit Carson and I realized, I mean

1543
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:33,400
Speaker 1: Captain Cook's story. Um, Captain Cook is a very controversial cat,

1544
01:33:33,520 --> 01:33:35,720
Speaker 1: just like Kid Carson. And you know, in terms of

1545
01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:38,840
Speaker 1: we were talking earlier of statues coming down and people

1546
01:33:39,200 --> 01:33:44,360
Speaker 1: um uh reassessing his legacy or something like that, And

1547
01:33:44,640 --> 01:33:47,759
Speaker 1: to me, that made him more interesting. Like whenever, whenever

1548
01:33:48,520 --> 01:33:51,920
Speaker 1: a historical subject has a pulse and has a controversy

1549
01:33:51,960 --> 01:33:54,600
Speaker 1: surrounding it, all the much better. Better. You know, like

1550
01:33:54,720 --> 01:33:57,600
Speaker 1: you're like, you're aware of whatever if you if you

1551
01:33:57,840 --> 01:34:02,040
Speaker 1: humanize him, you're where that you will be criticized. Ye,

1552
01:34:02,200 --> 01:34:04,720
Speaker 1: and then you know, but that's what also will bring

1553
01:34:04,840 --> 01:34:06,840
Speaker 1: people to the book. I think, you know, give it

1554
01:34:06,880 --> 01:34:09,840
Speaker 1: a pulse, you know, does that like does it change

1555
01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:12,000
Speaker 1: the lens you're looking him at? Like? Are you looking

1556
01:34:12,040 --> 01:34:14,880
Speaker 1: at him? You know through a lens you would have

1557
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:16,920
Speaker 1: looked at him twenty years ago? Are you like I

1558
01:34:17,000 --> 01:34:19,120
Speaker 1: ought to be thinking about what he did right here

1559
01:34:19,160 --> 01:34:22,479
Speaker 1: a different way. Yeah. I don't think a historian can

1560
01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:28,120
Speaker 1: help you know that filter. You know, you have to

1561
01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:32,240
Speaker 1: be aware of your time. And I'm sure that like

1562
01:34:32,360 --> 01:34:34,799
Speaker 1: for example, Blood and Thunder, if I were writing Blood

1563
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:37,280
Speaker 1: and Thunder today, I would write it differently. I can't

1564
01:34:37,280 --> 01:34:44,880
Speaker 1: help it. Times, I don't think I think you allowed

1565
01:34:44,920 --> 01:34:47,720
Speaker 1: a lot of people in that book. You allowed a

1566
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:52,240
Speaker 1: lot of people their humanity, and you mostly when in

1567
01:34:52,360 --> 01:34:56,479
Speaker 1: that book, when you condemn someone for being inept, it's

1568
01:34:56,560 --> 01:34:59,799
Speaker 1: mostly that they were regarded as inept by their peers

1569
01:35:00,240 --> 01:35:03,720
Speaker 1: in their own time. You're not, you don't, Like, I'm

1570
01:35:03,760 --> 01:35:06,560
Speaker 1: sure you do, Like you can't not look at it

1571
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:11,960
Speaker 1: from now, but um, the people that were assholes did

1572
01:35:12,280 --> 01:35:16,200
Speaker 1: things that were often recognized as asshole ish and incompetent

1573
01:35:17,400 --> 01:35:20,160
Speaker 1: by their own people. Yeah, like you really do it?

1574
01:35:20,400 --> 01:35:22,640
Speaker 1: Like in that project that a very good job of

1575
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:26,880
Speaker 1: helping people understand what was happening at a time. Well,

1576
01:35:26,960 --> 01:35:28,840
Speaker 1: I think, and I think that's like I don't know

1577
01:35:28,960 --> 01:35:31,519
Speaker 1: how And I would guess if you if you take

1578
01:35:31,560 --> 01:35:35,280
Speaker 1: on a Cook and be like, okay, listen, at the time,

1579
01:35:36,920 --> 01:35:39,960
Speaker 1: this is ship that was going on, right, you know,

1580
01:35:40,120 --> 01:35:41,800
Speaker 1: and and let's just talk about what happened at the

1581
01:35:41,800 --> 01:35:43,120
Speaker 1: time and what people felt at the time, and then

1582
01:35:43,160 --> 01:35:45,800
Speaker 1: you can now go and interpret that. But like, at

1583
01:35:45,880 --> 01:35:47,960
Speaker 1: the moment, this is what the world looked like, right.

1584
01:35:48,520 --> 01:35:52,800
Speaker 1: And the other problem with with uh Captain Cook is

1585
01:35:53,320 --> 01:35:57,360
Speaker 1: his story. You know, he had three voyages. Each one

1586
01:35:57,520 --> 01:35:59,960
Speaker 1: was everybod as big as the other one. There They're

1587
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:04,080
Speaker 1: just all very consequential and sprawling, And I realized I

1588
01:36:04,120 --> 01:36:08,559
Speaker 1: couldn't I couldn't do like a big biography of Captain Cook.

1589
01:36:08,680 --> 01:36:11,360
Speaker 1: That's not what I wanted to do. I had decided

1590
01:36:11,760 --> 01:36:13,960
Speaker 1: and my wife actually was was the one who said,

1591
01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:17,840
Speaker 1: you gotta pick one voyage, and I decided I'm going

1592
01:36:17,880 --> 01:36:22,200
Speaker 1: to focus on the third voyage because for a lot

1593
01:36:22,240 --> 01:36:25,400
Speaker 1: of different reasons. But it has this amazing murder story

1594
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:29,200
Speaker 1: in the middle of it, said in a y And

1595
01:36:29,360 --> 01:36:33,320
Speaker 1: not only that, but it also happens you know, it's

1596
01:36:33,400 --> 01:36:36,519
Speaker 1: it's the most American, and I'm an American writer. This

1597
01:36:36,640 --> 01:36:39,160
Speaker 1: is the most American of the three voyages because it

1598
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:44,479
Speaker 1: happens in July. It starts in July seventy six. It

1599
01:36:44,560 --> 01:36:52,400
Speaker 1: happens during the American Revolution. Uh. He discovers or rediscovers Hawaii,

1600
01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:57,280
Speaker 1: he charged the coast of Alaska, and he um after

1601
01:36:57,360 --> 01:37:00,639
Speaker 1: he dies, the voyage uh ends up in the hands

1602
01:37:00,920 --> 01:37:04,519
Speaker 1: of a Virginia, Virginia born American guy named John Gore

1603
01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:08,800
Speaker 1: who who captains the vessels home. So it's it's an

1604
01:37:08,800 --> 01:37:11,640
Speaker 1: American story in a lot of ways. Um. And so

1605
01:37:11,800 --> 01:37:13,680
Speaker 1: that's that's one part of it. The other part of

1606
01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:18,600
Speaker 1: it is, Um, there's something wrong with Captain Cook on

1607
01:37:18,720 --> 01:37:22,280
Speaker 1: the third voyage. All his scholars and all the kind

1608
01:37:22,320 --> 01:37:24,720
Speaker 1: of cook nerds out there are trying to figure out

1609
01:37:24,760 --> 01:37:29,040
Speaker 1: what's wrong with them the psychologically, psychologically, he's cruel. He's

1610
01:37:29,120 --> 01:37:31,519
Speaker 1: he's using the lash. He's being very cruel to his

1611
01:37:31,600 --> 01:37:34,360
Speaker 1: own people. He's cruel to the indigenous people he encounters

1612
01:37:34,479 --> 01:37:36,960
Speaker 1: in ways that were not true. How long have you been?

1613
01:37:37,320 --> 01:37:39,200
Speaker 1: How long have you been at it? By this point,

1614
01:37:40,640 --> 01:37:43,360
Speaker 1: the three voyages were Um, you know, he'd been doing

1615
01:37:43,400 --> 01:37:46,519
Speaker 1: it for about twelve years, doing this kind of voyaging.

1616
01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:49,280
Speaker 1: But he'd been in the navy for a long time.

1617
01:37:49,640 --> 01:37:55,040
Speaker 1: He was late forties when the expedition started. He was tired. Uh.

1618
01:37:55,120 --> 01:37:58,400
Speaker 1: He speculated that he had some kind of weird parasite

1619
01:37:58,400 --> 01:38:00,560
Speaker 1: from eating some bizarre food. You know what I was

1620
01:38:00,560 --> 01:38:04,920
Speaker 1: gonna say. He had cat scratch fever, probably kind of food.

1621
01:38:04,960 --> 01:38:07,960
Speaker 1: You guys talk about to plasm we've been we've been

1622
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:13,760
Speaker 1: exploring lately. Um, all these there's latent toxoplasmosis. It's like

1623
01:38:14,040 --> 01:38:17,360
Speaker 1: a parasite doesn't sound good. Well, just all these links

1624
01:38:17,439 --> 01:38:24,439
Speaker 1: between irrational, um reckless behavior and people who have suffered

1625
01:38:24,600 --> 01:38:30,160
Speaker 1: like increased entrepreneurial ship, increase auto accidents with people who

1626
01:38:30,200 --> 01:38:33,320
Speaker 1: suffer from toxoplasmosis. So the minute you said that he

1627
01:38:33,439 --> 01:38:36,720
Speaker 1: was that he was behaving erratically, that's from my mind. Well,

1628
01:38:36,840 --> 01:38:39,800
Speaker 1: and an interesting cook. One of his attributes everyone talks

1629
01:38:39,800 --> 01:38:42,000
Speaker 1: about it is that he would eat anything and he

1630
01:38:42,040 --> 01:38:44,599
Speaker 1: would get you know what, whatever culture he was encountering,

1631
01:38:44,800 --> 01:38:46,800
Speaker 1: he would he would he would break bread with them

1632
01:38:46,840 --> 01:38:49,280
Speaker 1: and eat whatever they're eating. And a lot of his

1633
01:38:49,360 --> 01:38:51,519
Speaker 1: officers will go, God, I'm not eating that thing whatever,

1634
01:38:51,640 --> 01:38:54,720
Speaker 1: whatever it is. Uh kind of food you guys eat routinely. Uh.

1635
01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:58,360
Speaker 1: He he had an iron stomach and he would eat anything.

1636
01:38:58,439 --> 01:39:02,080
Speaker 1: But apparently something got whatever it was, I guess we'll

1637
01:39:02,120 --> 01:39:05,320
Speaker 1: never know. Like it was pronounced enough that people wonder

1638
01:39:05,360 --> 01:39:09,000
Speaker 1: if he didn't. It's beyond a bad mood, right. No,

1639
01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:12,479
Speaker 1: every his officers wrote about it, you know, all the

1640
01:39:12,600 --> 01:39:15,800
Speaker 1: all the the serious cook scholars, you know, from the

1641
01:39:16,080 --> 01:39:19,320
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds on wrote about it. Something was wrong on

1642
01:39:19,400 --> 01:39:23,320
Speaker 1: the third voyage, and the old standby of syphilis hasn't

1643
01:39:23,640 --> 01:39:28,439
Speaker 1: gotten probably not because you know, I mean, I'm still

1644
01:39:28,479 --> 01:39:31,760
Speaker 1: open minded do this, but I think, um, everyone says

1645
01:39:31,800 --> 01:39:35,240
Speaker 1: that he never got it on with with any of

1646
01:39:35,280 --> 01:39:38,439
Speaker 1: the native I mean, believe me, all his men were

1647
01:39:39,320 --> 01:39:41,640
Speaker 1: and that's another issue that was going on. They were

1648
01:39:41,640 --> 01:39:45,800
Speaker 1: spreading syphilis all over the South seas. Um, and it

1649
01:39:45,880 --> 01:39:48,160
Speaker 1: was it was sad, it was pitiful, it was happening.

1650
01:39:48,200 --> 01:39:50,640
Speaker 1: But but Cook was married and apparently was loyal to

1651
01:39:50,720 --> 01:39:54,519
Speaker 1: his wife and didn't partake. Um. I'm still looking for

1652
01:39:55,320 --> 01:40:00,280
Speaker 1: evidence to the contrary, but um apparently, um he well,

1653
01:40:00,520 --> 01:40:02,559
Speaker 1: I suppose he could have had syphilis, you know, prior

1654
01:40:02,640 --> 01:40:05,400
Speaker 1: to even being married. Um. You know, syphilis is a

1655
01:40:05,520 --> 01:40:09,200
Speaker 1: very weird disease and uh manifests itself in a lot

1656
01:40:09,280 --> 01:40:14,240
Speaker 1: of different ways. But um no, syphilis usually is not

1657
01:40:14,560 --> 01:40:18,160
Speaker 1: one of the ones that that is, you know, listed

1658
01:40:18,200 --> 01:40:20,559
Speaker 1: as one of the culprits here. But anyway, something's going

1659
01:40:20,600 --> 01:40:22,200
Speaker 1: on with Cook, So that makes an answer kind of

1660
01:40:22,240 --> 01:40:25,559
Speaker 1: creates a little bit of a mystery to the story. Uh.

1661
01:40:26,200 --> 01:40:29,479
Speaker 1: As he moves through his voyage and when he by

1662
01:40:29,520 --> 01:40:33,000
Speaker 1: the time he gets to Hawaii, um he he's not

1663
01:40:33,200 --> 01:40:36,960
Speaker 1: his usual prudent self who knows how to negotiate, and

1664
01:40:37,400 --> 01:40:40,320
Speaker 1: you know, he pisces off a lot of people on

1665
01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:45,200
Speaker 1: the Big Island and uh you know, ultimately it leads

1666
01:40:45,240 --> 01:40:50,080
Speaker 1: to this kind of passion play on the shores of

1667
01:40:50,200 --> 01:40:53,720
Speaker 1: the Big Island where uh you know that's been dissected

1668
01:40:53,760 --> 01:40:55,840
Speaker 1: by a lot of different people, including the Hawaiians. And

1669
01:40:55,880 --> 01:40:57,800
Speaker 1: this is the other part, a rough sketch of what

1670
01:40:57,880 --> 01:40:59,880
Speaker 1: happened that day. I want to know if I looked

1671
01:40:59,880 --> 01:41:06,960
Speaker 1: at spot Yeah, well, um, so, uh, the Hawaiians, I

1672
01:41:07,040 --> 01:41:09,240
Speaker 1: have to go back a little bit, because so he

1673
01:41:09,320 --> 01:41:12,640
Speaker 1: had been on the Big Island for a number of

1674
01:41:12,720 --> 01:41:15,160
Speaker 1: weeks and had been treated like a king, had been

1675
01:41:15,160 --> 01:41:18,400
Speaker 1: treated almost like a deity. In fact, that's that's a

1676
01:41:18,439 --> 01:41:21,200
Speaker 1: whole Another issue is that perhaps the Hawaiians thought he

1677
01:41:21,320 --> 01:41:25,320
Speaker 1: was this god named Lano. Um what is that is that?

1678
01:41:25,479 --> 01:41:26,840
Speaker 1: Can you can you speak about that for a second?

1679
01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:30,960
Speaker 1: Is that connected to the way he approached the island

1680
01:41:31,000 --> 01:41:33,200
Speaker 1: and then sailed around the island a couple of times.

1681
01:41:33,320 --> 01:41:36,080
Speaker 1: And yeah, he's sort of fulfilled a prophecy in some

1682
01:41:36,160 --> 01:41:39,160
Speaker 1: of the y's exactly he sailed. He sailed in a

1683
01:41:39,280 --> 01:41:42,840
Speaker 1: clockwise fashion around the Big Island. And uh, there was

1684
01:41:42,880 --> 01:41:46,519
Speaker 1: this tradition and Hawaiian culture that Lana would come and

1685
01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:49,280
Speaker 1: during this particular season that happened to be right when

1686
01:41:49,360 --> 01:41:54,760
Speaker 1: Cook arrived. Um, they they either treated him thought he

1687
01:41:54,880 --> 01:41:58,120
Speaker 1: was Lana or they thought he was a manifestation of Lano. Uh,

1688
01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:03,840
Speaker 1: this is endlessly to baited. But nonetheless he came ashore

1689
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:06,760
Speaker 1: and was treated truly like a god. I mean they

1690
01:42:06,920 --> 01:42:08,840
Speaker 1: rolled out the red carpet and and and his men

1691
01:42:08,920 --> 01:42:11,439
Speaker 1: were treated so well for about a month, and it

1692
01:42:11,560 --> 01:42:14,479
Speaker 1: was this huge celebration going on that he was there,

1693
01:42:14,640 --> 01:42:18,120
Speaker 1: and he was there. But then when he came time

1694
01:42:18,160 --> 01:42:23,000
Speaker 1: to leave to go back to Alaska, um, to pursue

1695
01:42:23,360 --> 01:42:25,759
Speaker 1: pursue this. The reason that he was going to Alaska

1696
01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:29,040
Speaker 1: was to find a passage to the Atlantic Ocean, like

1697
01:42:29,280 --> 01:42:34,760
Speaker 1: a Northwest passage obviously doesn't exist or didn't exist. Um,

1698
01:42:35,439 --> 01:42:38,439
Speaker 1: but uh, so he's going back to Alaska. And about

1699
01:42:38,760 --> 01:42:42,920
Speaker 1: two days after leaving Hawaii, Uh, he encounters a storm

1700
01:42:43,080 --> 01:42:47,400
Speaker 1: and one of his masked snaps and he has to

1701
01:42:47,520 --> 01:42:50,840
Speaker 1: turn around and go back to Hawaii to find some

1702
01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:55,880
Speaker 1: would uh you know, replace his mast. Also, he I

1703
01:42:55,920 --> 01:42:57,880
Speaker 1: didn't know he went back on such a flimsy not

1704
01:42:57,960 --> 01:43:00,280
Speaker 1: a flimsy premise, but it was like a freak Yeah.

1705
01:43:00,400 --> 01:43:02,160
Speaker 1: And this time they were like, well, what are you

1706
01:43:02,200 --> 01:43:09,040
Speaker 1: doing here? Lano? But uh, is it plausible that he

1707
01:43:09,040 --> 01:43:13,479
Speaker 1: would have never gone back to Hawaii? Like yes, like

1708
01:43:13,600 --> 01:43:15,920
Speaker 1: his future plans like he may have never he might

1709
01:43:16,040 --> 01:43:18,439
Speaker 1: if that thing had snapped, he might not have been there. Ever,

1710
01:43:19,439 --> 01:43:22,000
Speaker 1: very plausible, and it was. The plan was to go

1711
01:43:22,439 --> 01:43:24,679
Speaker 1: go back to Alaska and try to find the Northwest

1712
01:43:24,680 --> 01:43:28,439
Speaker 1: Passage and then go home after that to England. But uh,

1713
01:43:28,760 --> 01:43:31,040
Speaker 1: but when he comes back, everything is different. They they're like,

1714
01:43:31,280 --> 01:43:34,880
Speaker 1: you can't be a god. You know, God's ships, masks

1715
01:43:35,000 --> 01:43:37,800
Speaker 1: don't break. What are you doing here? Maybe you're just

1716
01:43:37,920 --> 01:43:40,519
Speaker 1: you know, here to steal our stuff. You want our

1717
01:43:40,560 --> 01:43:43,960
Speaker 1: water and our wood and our women and our food,

1718
01:43:44,360 --> 01:43:48,160
Speaker 1: our hogs and uh they it was pronounced. It was

1719
01:43:48,200 --> 01:43:51,639
Speaker 1: like a totally different environment. And uh. Within a couple

1720
01:43:51,640 --> 01:43:56,120
Speaker 1: of days, Um, some Hawaiians stole uh one of his

1721
01:43:56,360 --> 01:43:59,439
Speaker 1: smaller boats, a cutter. Uh and those these cutters were

1722
01:43:59,479 --> 01:44:01,600
Speaker 1: very important part of their expedition. And so he was.

1723
01:44:02,080 --> 01:44:05,120
Speaker 1: He was angry, and he came ashore cooked did to

1724
01:44:05,320 --> 01:44:08,400
Speaker 1: try to find the boat, and in the course of things,

1725
01:44:08,520 --> 01:44:11,840
Speaker 1: he kidnapped. But he physically goes on the beach. He

1726
01:44:11,920 --> 01:44:15,600
Speaker 1: physically did it. Yes, just going crazy. You know, you

1727
01:44:15,680 --> 01:44:18,560
Speaker 1: think he would have got one of his officers or

1728
01:44:18,640 --> 01:44:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, one of the marines or something to go

1729
01:44:20,280 --> 01:44:24,000
Speaker 1: do this. He personally did it. And he kidnapped this chief,

1730
01:44:24,120 --> 01:44:26,519
Speaker 1: the chief of the Big Island, pretty much the highest

1731
01:44:26,600 --> 01:44:32,320
Speaker 1: ranking uh figure. He kidnapped him and tried to force

1732
01:44:32,400 --> 01:44:34,960
Speaker 1: him on back on to the ship. The idea was

1733
01:44:35,040 --> 01:44:39,040
Speaker 1: that they would they would hold him until they got

1734
01:44:39,120 --> 01:44:41,120
Speaker 1: their boat back. You know, he's going to take them

1735
01:44:41,600 --> 01:44:44,960
Speaker 1: and you know as hostage. Well, some of the warriors

1736
01:44:45,320 --> 01:44:46,920
Speaker 1: saw what was going on. They didn't like what was

1737
01:44:46,960 --> 01:44:52,200
Speaker 1: going on, and they started to uh uh resist and

1738
01:44:52,680 --> 01:44:56,040
Speaker 1: wouldn't let their chief come aboard the ship. And um,

1739
01:44:56,280 --> 01:44:59,560
Speaker 1: things escalated, and you know there's certainly language differences in

1740
01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:03,800
Speaker 1: culture differences and misques and misunderstandings. And Cook fired a

1741
01:45:03,840 --> 01:45:07,719
Speaker 1: shot in the air. Um, and then uh he fired

1742
01:45:07,760 --> 01:45:11,280
Speaker 1: a shot at a native and killed a Native Hawaiian.

1743
01:45:11,320 --> 01:45:15,120
Speaker 1: And then uh, very soon thereafter, a hatchet ends up

1744
01:45:15,560 --> 01:45:18,080
Speaker 1: between his shoulder blades and he drowns in about a

1745
01:45:18,120 --> 01:45:21,720
Speaker 1: foot of water at on at the bay there k

1746
01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:24,960
Speaker 1: l a q K bay where you were fishing apparently, um,

1747
01:45:25,840 --> 01:45:28,200
Speaker 1: and uh you know there's a monument there still. Um.

1748
01:45:28,280 --> 01:45:31,560
Speaker 1: It was actually declared when a little brief area of

1749
01:45:31,680 --> 01:45:36,360
Speaker 1: that around where the killing happened is still technically British soil.

1750
01:45:37,680 --> 01:45:39,599
Speaker 1: It's so kind of a weird thing. I don't fully

1751
01:45:39,680 --> 01:45:42,560
Speaker 1: understand how that's possible, but uh, it's you know a

1752
01:45:42,640 --> 01:45:45,640
Speaker 1: lot of people go there. It's a monument too to

1753
01:45:45,800 --> 01:45:48,640
Speaker 1: what happened. But also you know the British presence. You know,

1754
01:45:48,720 --> 01:45:52,000
Speaker 1: it used to be a British possession, the Sandwich Islands

1755
01:45:52,040 --> 01:45:56,000
Speaker 1: that was called um and so it's kind of you know,

1756
01:45:56,200 --> 01:45:58,720
Speaker 1: I've I've been reading history stuff for a long time.

1757
01:45:58,760 --> 01:46:00,760
Speaker 1: I never I didn't know that the Sandwich Islands or

1758
01:46:00,800 --> 01:46:04,240
Speaker 1: Hawaiian I only I remember like putting it together, like, oh,

1759
01:46:04,600 --> 01:46:07,400
Speaker 1: that's that is well. Cook named him that because the

1760
01:46:07,479 --> 01:46:11,880
Speaker 1: great uh, the great advocate for all of his explorations,

1761
01:46:12,080 --> 01:46:16,160
Speaker 1: was the first Lord of the Admiralty, Lord Sandwich, and

1762
01:46:16,280 --> 01:46:20,840
Speaker 1: Lord Sandwich was the inventor of the sandwich. He was

1763
01:46:20,920 --> 01:46:22,920
Speaker 1: real busy all the time and he didn't have time

1764
01:46:22,960 --> 01:46:24,639
Speaker 1: to eat, so he just took two pieces of bread

1765
01:46:24,640 --> 01:46:26,800
Speaker 1: and put a piece of beef between him and stuck

1766
01:46:26,840 --> 01:46:29,160
Speaker 1: it in his mouth and became known as the sandwich.

1767
01:46:29,200 --> 01:46:33,200
Speaker 1: I'm not kidding, um, but anyway, Um, that's that's the

1768
01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:36,679
Speaker 1: book I'm writing now, and it's about two thirds almost

1769
01:46:36,720 --> 01:46:39,880
Speaker 1: three quarters done, probably come out late next year. Tell

1770
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:42,920
Speaker 1: me about the character is the explain what's going on

1771
01:46:43,040 --> 01:46:45,280
Speaker 1: with your with your story you have about the guy

1772
01:46:45,439 --> 01:46:48,439
Speaker 1: my okay? Is that part of that's not part of

1773
01:46:48,479 --> 01:46:50,400
Speaker 1: the book. It is part of the book. It's just

1774
01:46:50,479 --> 01:46:53,600
Speaker 1: kind of like an early excerpt from the book, but

1775
01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:56,559
Speaker 1: also turned into its own thing. It's it's a kind

1776
01:46:56,600 --> 01:46:58,559
Speaker 1: of a story that I've carved out of the book.

1777
01:46:59,200 --> 01:47:04,640
Speaker 1: Um and uh it's just recently been published by Scripted Originals,

1778
01:47:04,800 --> 01:47:07,160
Speaker 1: which is a new new thing. It's kind of an

1779
01:47:07,200 --> 01:47:13,639
Speaker 1: interesting long form digital deal that uh that I've just discovered.

1780
01:47:13,720 --> 01:47:16,200
Speaker 1: I love, I love doing this piece for them. Um.

1781
01:47:16,439 --> 01:47:18,719
Speaker 1: So the piece is called The Exotic and it's about

1782
01:47:18,760 --> 01:47:23,599
Speaker 1: this young man named my who uh came to England

1783
01:47:23,800 --> 01:47:27,320
Speaker 1: as part of Cook's second voyage and was the first

1784
01:47:27,400 --> 01:47:32,000
Speaker 1: Polynesian ever to arrive on um on English shores. He

1785
01:47:32,120 --> 01:47:34,760
Speaker 1: was Cook took him, Yes he was. He was a

1786
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:38,960
Speaker 1: Tahitian man, a young man who became this uh cause

1787
01:47:39,040 --> 01:47:43,519
Speaker 1: celeb in in England. He he just took that country

1788
01:47:43,560 --> 01:47:46,800
Speaker 1: by storm. They loved him. And uh it's really about

1789
01:47:47,040 --> 01:47:50,240
Speaker 1: his two years in England and how this noble savage

1790
01:47:50,280 --> 01:47:52,640
Speaker 1: as they called him, um, kind of one over the

1791
01:47:52,720 --> 01:47:56,680
Speaker 1: nation and the leading thinkers and writers and politicians. He

1792
01:47:56,760 --> 01:48:01,360
Speaker 1: met the King of England. Uh, and he was vaccinated

1793
01:48:02,560 --> 01:48:07,880
Speaker 1: that this new thing called a vaccination of smallpox. Um. Yeah,

1794
01:48:08,439 --> 01:48:11,160
Speaker 1: this was at least the procedure for smallpox was. And

1795
01:48:11,160 --> 01:48:12,920
Speaker 1: it was still a little risky. It was still a

1796
01:48:13,000 --> 01:48:17,200
Speaker 1: little experimental. But um. Unfortunately, what would happen is that

1797
01:48:17,280 --> 01:48:20,320
Speaker 1: English would bring up to that point, it had been

1798
01:48:20,800 --> 01:48:25,000
Speaker 1: native Americans and Eskimos into it. They're bringing them to London.

1799
01:48:25,080 --> 01:48:27,760
Speaker 1: They want to show him off, prayed him around, you know,

1800
01:48:28,280 --> 01:48:32,280
Speaker 1: make impress upon them how powerful England was. But they

1801
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:36,200
Speaker 1: were also genuinely curious about these people, um, and how

1802
01:48:36,320 --> 01:48:38,320
Speaker 1: they would do and how they would fare in a

1803
01:48:38,439 --> 01:48:43,080
Speaker 1: big city. But almost invariably they would die uh a smallpox.

1804
01:48:43,439 --> 01:48:46,599
Speaker 1: It was almost always smallpox. Well, when my got there,

1805
01:48:46,680 --> 01:48:49,160
Speaker 1: the King of England, King George the third, said we

1806
01:48:49,240 --> 01:48:51,600
Speaker 1: got to get this guy vaccinated, and they did and

1807
01:48:51,720 --> 01:48:54,439
Speaker 1: it was successful and because of that he lived for

1808
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:58,519
Speaker 1: this two years. It was healthy. The ladies kind of

1809
01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:02,160
Speaker 1: fell in love with him. Um. He ended up being

1810
01:49:02,280 --> 01:49:06,719
Speaker 1: this um they like. He became a gentleman, an English gentleman.

1811
01:49:06,800 --> 01:49:12,200
Speaker 1: He hunted, he uh uh, learned to play chess and backgammon,

1812
01:49:12,320 --> 01:49:14,640
Speaker 1: and we went to all the balls and dances and

1813
01:49:14,680 --> 01:49:17,800
Speaker 1: the salons and you know, but people it was kind

1814
01:49:17,800 --> 01:49:20,680
Speaker 1: of a mixture of like they were genuinely fascinated by him,

1815
01:49:20,720 --> 01:49:24,080
Speaker 1: but they also were studying him, you know, like is

1816
01:49:24,160 --> 01:49:31,000
Speaker 1: he really the noble savage? And h He also turned

1817
01:49:31,000 --> 01:49:37,120
Speaker 1: out this guy my brought barbecue to England because at

1818
01:49:37,160 --> 01:49:39,960
Speaker 1: one point one of the estates where he had been

1819
01:49:40,040 --> 01:49:44,080
Speaker 1: hunting um, one of the lords said, well, why don't

1820
01:49:44,320 --> 01:49:47,120
Speaker 1: we hear that you cook in this special way down

1821
01:49:47,200 --> 01:49:50,160
Speaker 1: in Polynesia. You know, perhaps you could cook these foul

1822
01:49:50,280 --> 01:49:54,040
Speaker 1: that they had just shot um in the Polynesian way.

1823
01:49:54,240 --> 01:49:56,600
Speaker 1: And he said, well, I would love to. And he

1824
01:49:56,720 --> 01:49:58,400
Speaker 1: turned out to be a great cook. You know, you

1825
01:49:58,960 --> 01:50:00,800
Speaker 1: dig a hole in the round and you you know,

1826
01:50:00,880 --> 01:50:03,920
Speaker 1: you cook cook it in in Uh the Polynesian way

1827
01:50:04,120 --> 01:50:08,640
Speaker 1: took in many hours, uh, slow and low, you know,

1828
01:50:08,800 --> 01:50:12,680
Speaker 1: lots of smoke, and uh. He they just loved it.

1829
01:50:12,720 --> 01:50:14,439
Speaker 1: They loved it so much that everywhere he went they

1830
01:50:14,439 --> 01:50:16,559
Speaker 1: asked him to cook for them. He became this kind

1831
01:50:16,560 --> 01:50:19,640
Speaker 1: of celebrity chef. You know. But was he was he

1832
01:50:19,680 --> 01:50:22,040
Speaker 1: even somebody treated as an equal or was it always

1833
01:50:22,080 --> 01:50:28,559
Speaker 1: sort of understood that he was uh like not quite European, yeah,

1834
01:50:29,400 --> 01:50:31,160
Speaker 1: uh mixture. I mean, I think a lot of his

1835
01:50:31,640 --> 01:50:35,120
Speaker 1: mates on the ship that he had sailed with almost

1836
01:50:35,200 --> 01:50:38,759
Speaker 1: viewed him as an equal because he he equitted himself

1837
01:50:38,880 --> 01:50:42,000
Speaker 1: very well and on on the ship he was a

1838
01:50:42,040 --> 01:50:44,600
Speaker 1: great fisherman, he was he was a great uh just

1839
01:50:44,680 --> 01:50:48,040
Speaker 1: someone who understood the ocean. You know, Polynesians are just

1840
01:50:48,840 --> 01:50:52,960
Speaker 1: excellent navigators. And you know, I think he was treated

1841
01:50:53,040 --> 01:50:55,800
Speaker 1: quite equally, surprisingly so on the ship. But by the

1842
01:50:55,880 --> 01:50:57,080
Speaker 1: time we got to England, I think there was this

1843
01:50:57,200 --> 01:51:00,400
Speaker 1: mixture of like, yeah, you're fascinating, your interesting, you're a

1844
01:51:00,520 --> 01:51:04,040
Speaker 1: prince of some sort, but you're still you're still a

1845
01:51:04,120 --> 01:51:06,960
Speaker 1: person of color. You know that you can't you can't

1846
01:51:07,080 --> 01:51:12,360
Speaker 1: divorce yourself from the racial views of that time. Um,

1847
01:51:12,960 --> 01:51:15,800
Speaker 1: they you know, there was a patronizing quality to the

1848
01:51:15,840 --> 01:51:18,360
Speaker 1: way they treated him. There's no way to avoid saying that.

1849
01:51:18,640 --> 01:51:22,360
Speaker 1: But but overall I think they did about as they

1850
01:51:22,400 --> 01:51:24,560
Speaker 1: treated him, about as well as they could possibly do.

1851
01:51:24,880 --> 01:51:26,840
Speaker 1: But and one of the reasons they did it there

1852
01:51:26,920 --> 01:51:32,640
Speaker 1: was a kind of a colonial competitive layer to this,

1853
01:51:32,800 --> 01:51:36,639
Speaker 1: which is that the English really wanted to take over Tahiti,

1854
01:51:37,720 --> 01:51:39,720
Speaker 1: and they wanted to make sure. The French didn't and

1855
01:51:39,800 --> 01:51:42,240
Speaker 1: the Spanish didn't, so they wanted to treat this guy

1856
01:51:42,400 --> 01:51:46,519
Speaker 1: like an envoy and make him, you know, happy, so

1857
01:51:46,680 --> 01:51:48,559
Speaker 1: that they would return him. And that's the second part

1858
01:51:48,600 --> 01:51:51,920
Speaker 1: of the story. Is he goes back to Tahiti on

1859
01:51:52,120 --> 01:51:56,000
Speaker 1: Captain Cook's third voyage, and he has returned to Tahiti

1860
01:51:56,120 --> 01:51:59,720
Speaker 1: with this experience that he's had, this excellent adventure that

1861
01:51:59,800 --> 01:52:03,160
Speaker 1: he's been on, and he's returned with all these possessions

1862
01:52:04,000 --> 01:52:07,599
Speaker 1: that are so alien to the Tehitians. He's got horses,

1863
01:52:07,720 --> 01:52:11,920
Speaker 1: he's he's got goats, he's got sheep, he's got a

1864
01:52:12,040 --> 01:52:16,719
Speaker 1: suit of armor. He's got all these guns and you know, muskets,

1865
01:52:16,800 --> 01:52:21,479
Speaker 1: and he's got gunpowder and knives and swords and all

1866
01:52:21,520 --> 01:52:23,679
Speaker 1: this metal. I mean, they had never seen metal before

1867
01:52:24,640 --> 01:52:28,560
Speaker 1: the Europeans had arrived. And it's sets in motion this

1868
01:52:28,880 --> 01:52:32,080
Speaker 1: you know, all these jealousies and you know, people are

1869
01:52:32,280 --> 01:52:34,559
Speaker 1: trying to figure out who is this guy. My he's

1870
01:52:34,680 --> 01:52:37,880
Speaker 1: not actually from a chiefly class. He's actually from a

1871
01:52:37,960 --> 01:52:42,160
Speaker 1: kind of a uh land. Listen, He's a nobody basically,

1872
01:52:42,439 --> 01:52:47,000
Speaker 1: but he suddenly he thinks he's big stuff and he's

1873
01:52:47,040 --> 01:52:51,800
Speaker 1: got all this all these belongings more than any chief. Uh.

1874
01:52:52,439 --> 01:52:55,320
Speaker 1: It just drives people crazy. And it's it's really about

1875
01:52:55,760 --> 01:52:59,200
Speaker 1: how he returns. And I forgot to mention the whole

1876
01:52:59,280 --> 01:53:02,360
Speaker 1: reason got on board Cook's second voyage to go to

1877
01:53:02,439 --> 01:53:07,600
Speaker 1: England really the only reason because he wanted guns. He

1878
01:53:07,720 --> 01:53:10,800
Speaker 1: wanted to go to war against the people of Bora Bora,

1879
01:53:10,960 --> 01:53:15,560
Speaker 1: which was this is a long old, festering kind of

1880
01:53:16,080 --> 01:53:19,400
Speaker 1: hatfield and McCoy's situation back back home that he wanted

1881
01:53:19,720 --> 01:53:23,040
Speaker 1: he wanted guns so that he could kick ass against

1882
01:53:23,080 --> 01:53:25,240
Speaker 1: the horrible runs and and in the end he ultimately

1883
01:53:25,280 --> 01:53:28,040
Speaker 1: does that. He fights a battle against them with these

1884
01:53:28,280 --> 01:53:32,160
Speaker 1: new things called guns and wins the battle. Uh. So,

1885
01:53:33,080 --> 01:53:36,080
Speaker 1: very interesting arc to his story. And I decided to

1886
01:53:36,120 --> 01:53:38,479
Speaker 1: kind of carve it out of the bigger book and

1887
01:53:38,560 --> 01:53:42,639
Speaker 1: turn it into a uh you know, it's like it's

1888
01:53:42,720 --> 01:53:46,679
Speaker 1: like it's like a novella length story, but it will

1889
01:53:46,720 --> 01:53:48,720
Speaker 1: go back into the big book. It'll go back into

1890
01:53:48,720 --> 01:53:51,360
Speaker 1: the big book with slightly with some differences and changing

1891
01:53:51,400 --> 01:53:53,599
Speaker 1: it up a little bit. But yep, So with your work,

1892
01:53:56,120 --> 01:53:59,200
Speaker 1: do you always are all your stories optioned out for films?

1893
01:54:00,520 --> 01:54:03,599
Speaker 1: Let's see, Well, yeah, all of them have been very

1894
01:54:03,680 --> 01:54:07,120
Speaker 1: few of them have gotten made. Ghost Soldiers was turned

1895
01:54:07,120 --> 01:54:09,760
Speaker 1: into a movie called The Great Raid that was made

1896
01:54:09,800 --> 01:54:13,800
Speaker 1: by a really nice man named Harvey Weinstein. Uh. He

1897
01:54:13,880 --> 01:54:16,479
Speaker 1: bought my first book. A wonderful guy. Oh is that right?

1898
01:54:16,680 --> 01:54:19,200
Speaker 1: My wife used to work for Oh my gosh, nice great,

1899
01:54:19,240 --> 01:54:24,000
Speaker 1: She's got great Harvey story that she does. Wow. Well, anyway,

1900
01:54:24,040 --> 01:54:29,320
Speaker 1: it was it was made um into a movie by Mirramax,

1901
01:54:29,880 --> 01:54:33,680
Speaker 1: and um, it wasn't great. I didn't do particularly well

1902
01:54:33,800 --> 01:54:36,600
Speaker 1: commercially or happy with it. I was happy with the

1903
01:54:36,720 --> 01:54:40,480
Speaker 1: historical accuracy of it. But it just didn't work, you know,

1904
01:54:40,560 --> 01:54:43,680
Speaker 1: I was there's some casting problems. I think maybe maybe

1905
01:54:43,720 --> 01:54:46,080
Speaker 1: they got the wrong director or something something about it

1906
01:54:46,200 --> 01:54:50,480
Speaker 1: wasn't quite right. It had James Franco uh, and it

1907
01:54:50,600 --> 01:54:55,760
Speaker 1: had actually an excellent cast. Um, but somehow on the

1908
01:54:56,000 --> 01:54:59,520
Speaker 1: end they it just didn't work. Uh. Did you get

1909
01:54:59,560 --> 01:55:04,280
Speaker 1: it way in on the historical accuracy of the actual film? Yes, yes,

1910
01:55:04,360 --> 01:55:06,560
Speaker 1: And I mean they actually wanted me to like it.

1911
01:55:06,800 --> 01:55:10,120
Speaker 1: They wanted me to vet it, and they actually flew

1912
01:55:10,200 --> 01:55:13,120
Speaker 1: me to the set, which unfortunately, it wasn't filmed in

1913
01:55:13,160 --> 01:55:15,120
Speaker 1: the Philippines, which is where it needed to be. It

1914
01:55:15,200 --> 01:55:18,320
Speaker 1: was filmed in Australia. So I went to Australia and

1915
01:55:18,360 --> 01:55:20,480
Speaker 1: I went to the set and they happened to be

1916
01:55:20,720 --> 01:55:23,600
Speaker 1: fighting that night. You know, it was nights night filming,

1917
01:55:24,320 --> 01:55:27,160
Speaker 1: and there was explosions and grenades and flares and all

1918
01:55:27,200 --> 01:55:30,080
Speaker 1: this stuff going on, and all of a sudden, this kangaroo,

1919
01:55:31,280 --> 01:55:35,320
Speaker 1: terrified hops across the camera, uh, in front of the camera,

1920
01:55:36,040 --> 01:55:38,680
Speaker 1: and the director has to say, you know, cut because

1921
01:55:38,680 --> 01:55:41,960
Speaker 1: there weren't any kangaroos in the Philippines. Um. But uh,

1922
01:55:42,240 --> 01:55:45,480
Speaker 1: but you know it was it was you know, like

1923
01:55:45,600 --> 01:55:48,400
Speaker 1: I said, I was happy with the historical accuracy. In

1924
01:55:48,440 --> 01:55:51,280
Speaker 1: the end, they listened to me and they tried and

1925
01:55:51,720 --> 01:55:55,040
Speaker 1: it was a decent uh movie. I call it the

1926
01:55:55,120 --> 01:56:00,240
Speaker 1: perfectly good rate, not the great rate. But went to

1927
01:56:00,400 --> 01:56:02,440
Speaker 1: in the Philippines that went to where where's the there's

1928
01:56:02,440 --> 01:56:04,600
Speaker 1: a ton memorial. I can't remember where I went, but

1929
01:56:04,640 --> 01:56:07,400
Speaker 1: I went to in the Philippines too. Yeah. I mean

1930
01:56:07,480 --> 01:56:11,360
Speaker 1: it's a huge event still memorialized, and it would have

1931
01:56:11,360 --> 01:56:13,280
Speaker 1: been cool to film it there, man. Yeah, it would

1932
01:56:13,320 --> 01:56:15,280
Speaker 1: have been. It would have been amazing. And that's that.

1933
01:56:15,480 --> 01:56:17,120
Speaker 1: That was one of the weaknesses I think of the

1934
01:56:17,240 --> 01:56:19,920
Speaker 1: film is that you can just somehow tell it's not

1935
01:56:20,080 --> 01:56:24,320
Speaker 1: the Philippines. You know, other stuff has been optioned. Um,

1936
01:56:24,840 --> 01:56:26,960
Speaker 1: the most interesting thing is Blood and Thunder. I mean

1937
01:56:27,080 --> 01:56:30,880
Speaker 1: there's just something about that book that people have just constantly.

1938
01:56:31,440 --> 01:56:34,200
Speaker 1: It's like when one group tries to make it and fails,

1939
01:56:34,240 --> 01:56:36,920
Speaker 1: then another group comes on board, and you know, I

1940
01:56:37,000 --> 01:56:41,560
Speaker 1: think it's too big and sprawling and ultimately controversial as

1941
01:56:41,680 --> 01:56:44,200
Speaker 1: story for people to figure out how to track it.

1942
01:56:44,560 --> 01:56:47,840
Speaker 1: It's like how you really can't do um, no one,

1943
01:56:47,960 --> 01:56:52,320
Speaker 1: like no one's really done, like Lewis and Clark expedition, right, Like,

1944
01:56:52,400 --> 01:56:54,840
Speaker 1: you can't. You're right, you can't. It's just I think

1945
01:56:55,080 --> 01:56:57,520
Speaker 1: I think it's I guarantee right now someone's working on

1946
01:56:57,560 --> 01:57:01,440
Speaker 1: that some bitch. Yeah, always know won't work out. Undonted

1947
01:57:01,560 --> 01:57:05,120
Speaker 1: Courage has probably been optioned twenty times, you know. Um yeah,

1948
01:57:05,120 --> 01:57:08,560
Speaker 1: I can see like how you'd have to, Yeah, you

1949
01:57:08,720 --> 01:57:10,560
Speaker 1: have the find for kick Cars. You have to find

1950
01:57:10,640 --> 01:57:13,800
Speaker 1: some like micro type event, you know. Yeah, I think

1951
01:57:13,840 --> 01:57:16,760
Speaker 1: you have to or or make it sprawl into a series,

1952
01:57:16,840 --> 01:57:18,800
Speaker 1: which is the group that's doing it trying to do

1953
01:57:18,880 --> 01:57:21,280
Speaker 1: it now is the same people who did Game of Thrones.

1954
01:57:22,000 --> 01:57:25,440
Speaker 1: You can imagine that just take out the dragons and

1955
01:57:26,000 --> 01:57:28,720
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, turn it into it's like this

1956
01:57:28,960 --> 01:57:31,640
Speaker 1: story of all these kingdoms all fighting over the same

1957
01:57:32,360 --> 01:57:37,640
Speaker 1: you know, trying to trying to you know, survive this.

1958
01:57:38,000 --> 01:57:41,520
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a very similar story. Actually. Um,

1959
01:57:41,720 --> 01:57:44,560
Speaker 1: the group that's trying to do it now, it's interesting.

1960
01:57:44,640 --> 01:57:46,960
Speaker 1: But at first the first person who optioned it with Spielberg,

1961
01:57:47,640 --> 01:57:49,800
Speaker 1: tried to make it into a movie. Didn't work for him,

1962
01:57:50,160 --> 01:57:52,200
Speaker 1: and then it was Robert Redford, and then then it

1963
01:57:52,280 --> 01:57:57,440
Speaker 1: was Ridley Scott. Uh. Pretty cool. Every time I get

1964
01:57:57,520 --> 01:58:00,720
Speaker 1: very excited, and then of course it just somehow didn't

1965
01:58:00,760 --> 01:58:03,680
Speaker 1: work in the end. So we'll see what this new

1966
01:58:03,760 --> 01:58:06,320
Speaker 1: group is able to do. It'll be interesting to see.

1967
01:58:06,480 --> 01:58:10,520
Speaker 1: You know. The first meeting I had with anyone around

1968
01:58:10,600 --> 01:58:13,880
Speaker 1: like television and film and stuff, the first serious meeting

1969
01:58:13,920 --> 01:58:16,080
Speaker 1: I had was around like having a project in minn

1970
01:58:16,120 --> 01:58:18,720
Speaker 1: option And I always remember. The woman's name was Gloria.

1971
01:58:19,280 --> 01:58:21,080
Speaker 1: We're sitting in a room like this, a bunch of people,

1972
01:58:21,680 --> 01:58:24,160
Speaker 1: and she said, first off, I just want to say that, um,

1973
01:58:24,920 --> 01:58:31,320
Speaker 1: nothing ever gets done. It's impossible with that. Let's get started. Yeah,

1974
01:58:31,360 --> 01:58:34,600
Speaker 1: I mean I couldn't figure out why when the oscars

1975
01:58:35,080 --> 01:58:37,640
Speaker 1: happened there, you know, and somebody wins, and they're just

1976
01:58:37,840 --> 01:58:42,200
Speaker 1: all this exaggerated excitement, like, oh gosh, you know, it's

1977
01:58:42,240 --> 01:58:45,760
Speaker 1: so exciting, and they're just freaking out on stage. I

1978
01:58:45,760 --> 01:58:48,360
Speaker 1: always thought it was because they were just incredibly self obsessed,

1979
01:58:48,520 --> 01:58:52,160
Speaker 1: narcissistic people, which they are. But the reason there that

1980
01:58:52,240 --> 01:58:55,120
Speaker 1: way is because it was truly a miracle that the

1981
01:58:55,200 --> 01:58:57,000
Speaker 1: thing got made and that it was good and then

1982
01:58:57,040 --> 01:58:59,440
Speaker 1: it actually won an award. I mean, it's like, there's

1983
01:58:59,480 --> 01:59:04,160
Speaker 1: so many reasons why films fail, especially films about, you know,

1984
01:59:04,440 --> 01:59:08,720
Speaker 1: complicated historical subjects. Um. I think I've mentioned this quote

1985
01:59:08,760 --> 01:59:10,839
Speaker 1: in the past, but who's the you know, John lockra

1986
01:59:10,960 --> 01:59:15,000
Speaker 1: is how he says in The Intrigue Like Espionage, he

1987
01:59:15,160 --> 01:59:19,520
Speaker 1: described having his books turned into movies. He described it

1988
01:59:19,600 --> 01:59:26,800
Speaker 1: as watching an oxen turned into a bullion cube. That's great. Uh,

1989
01:59:27,240 --> 01:59:28,920
Speaker 1: well they always say that, uh, And I think it

1990
01:59:29,000 --> 01:59:31,320
Speaker 1: was Hemmingway who said it that you're supposed to the

1991
01:59:31,400 --> 01:59:33,720
Speaker 1: writer of the book is supposed to drive to the

1992
01:59:34,320 --> 01:59:37,800
Speaker 1: California Nevada border in the middle of the night, and

1993
01:59:37,920 --> 01:59:40,760
Speaker 1: the Hollywood guys show up on the California side, and

1994
01:59:40,920 --> 01:59:44,280
Speaker 1: you go into your trunk and you hurl your manuscript

1995
01:59:44,360 --> 01:59:46,440
Speaker 1: over the border, and then they go to their trunk

1996
01:59:46,480 --> 01:59:50,160
Speaker 1: and they hurl the money at you, and then the

1997
01:59:50,200 --> 01:59:52,640
Speaker 1: two cars just turned around and drive away and they

1998
01:59:52,720 --> 01:59:56,600
Speaker 1: never never meet. That's probably the smartest way to do it,

1999
01:59:56,680 --> 01:59:58,840
Speaker 1: because it would be a lot less heartache and a

2000
01:59:58,920 --> 02:00:04,400
Speaker 1: lot less U frustration. Yeah. Uh, well, maybe he'll be

2001
02:00:04,440 --> 02:00:08,000
Speaker 1: a big Captain cook blockbuster. Hey, real quick, when when

2002
02:00:08,040 --> 02:00:10,440
Speaker 1: you're when this does happen? Um, who's gonna who should

2003
02:00:10,440 --> 02:00:15,160
Speaker 1: play Captain Cook? Just give us an idea? Who should

2004
02:00:15,160 --> 02:00:20,320
Speaker 1: play captain? Like cag to you? Who's Captain cook Man?

2005
02:00:20,360 --> 02:00:24,840
Speaker 1: How old was when he died? Uh? He was or fifty?

2006
02:00:24,960 --> 02:00:26,760
Speaker 1: I guess I should know that off the top of

2007
02:00:26,840 --> 02:00:28,600
Speaker 1: my head, but I don't haven't gotten to that part yet.

2008
02:00:28,640 --> 02:00:33,360
Speaker 1: Who should That's a very good question. Is too old?

2009
02:00:33,680 --> 02:00:36,880
Speaker 1: You know? He was a very tall um and very

2010
02:00:36,960 --> 02:00:41,840
Speaker 1: severe looking guy. Um with an intense gaze, a very

2011
02:00:41,920 --> 02:00:49,080
Speaker 1: large nose. Um. Rick Moran is not gonna do it?

2012
02:00:49,680 --> 02:00:51,440
Speaker 1: That's a very good question. I haven't thought of that.

2013
02:00:51,760 --> 02:00:54,440
Speaker 1: But and in fact, that's another one that has not

2014
02:00:54,600 --> 02:00:56,680
Speaker 1: been done. You'd think there'd be a lot of cook

2015
02:00:56,760 --> 02:01:00,720
Speaker 1: movies out there, there really aren't has been done. I

2016
02:01:00,760 --> 02:01:05,560
Speaker 1: don't know. I think it's maybe way back days. But yeah,

2017
02:01:06,000 --> 02:01:08,040
Speaker 1: so when could people why could people see a new

2018
02:01:08,080 --> 02:01:11,080
Speaker 1: book come out, the one on cook You haven't even

2019
02:01:11,080 --> 02:01:12,800
Speaker 1: finished it yet, but I mean it'll be a while, right,

2020
02:01:12,960 --> 02:01:16,280
Speaker 1: it'll be late at the very earliest, will be the

2021
02:01:16,480 --> 02:01:20,080
Speaker 1: end of next year, around Christmas time. And uh. The

2022
02:01:20,200 --> 02:01:23,600
Speaker 1: tentative title is The Resolution, which was the name of

2023
02:01:23,720 --> 02:01:27,560
Speaker 1: his ship, the Resolution, um man, the British knew how

2024
02:01:27,600 --> 02:01:31,720
Speaker 1: to name ships, you know, the endeavor, Discovery, you know, uh,

2025
02:01:32,360 --> 02:01:35,160
Speaker 1: and this and this one, you know, the Resolution, which

2026
02:01:35,200 --> 02:01:39,200
Speaker 1: has got so many layers of meaning, including the resolution

2027
02:01:39,280 --> 02:01:41,840
Speaker 1: of his story, his life story. That's a good point, man.

2028
02:01:42,320 --> 02:01:45,920
Speaker 1: So that's why read that comes out? Well maybe maybe

2029
02:01:46,360 --> 02:01:47,960
Speaker 1: in fte me back on here and we'll talk like

2030
02:01:48,000 --> 02:01:50,160
Speaker 1: those people that when the new Harry Potter book was

2031
02:01:50,200 --> 02:01:52,040
Speaker 1: coming out, They're like line up at the bookstore. I'm

2032
02:01:52,040 --> 02:01:54,240
Speaker 1: gonna be out waiting to get that book because I

2033
02:01:54,280 --> 02:01:56,720
Speaker 1: need to find out did they at them? Did not

2034
02:01:56,880 --> 02:01:59,920
Speaker 1: at them? Well? We will, I mean, because I am

2035
02:02:00,000 --> 02:02:03,960
Speaker 1: from Memphis, and you know, we consider ourselves the barbecue

2036
02:02:04,000 --> 02:02:06,520
Speaker 1: capital of the world. We we we probably will have

2037
02:02:06,640 --> 02:02:10,080
Speaker 1: some barbecue recipes in the back, you know, like dry

2038
02:02:10,160 --> 02:02:13,880
Speaker 1: rub of European you know, or you know, different recipes. Um,

2039
02:02:14,200 --> 02:02:17,360
Speaker 1: it's it's you know. The the Liyons insist that he

2040
02:02:17,480 --> 02:02:20,280
Speaker 1: was not actually eaten, but he was, in fact, Um,

2041
02:02:21,960 --> 02:02:26,520
Speaker 1: he in fact was dismembered and cooked, baked and uh

2042
02:02:26,920 --> 02:02:31,560
Speaker 1: and uh uh when his remains were presented to the

2043
02:02:32,880 --> 02:02:36,200
Speaker 1: to the English who are still waiting in that bay

2044
02:02:36,440 --> 02:02:39,880
Speaker 1: waiting for something, uh, they only they brought him a

2045
02:02:40,000 --> 02:02:44,320
Speaker 1: thigh bone and part of his hand, and uh, some

2046
02:02:44,480 --> 02:02:47,920
Speaker 1: of his scalp and and his hat, and so naturally,

2047
02:02:48,240 --> 02:02:50,480
Speaker 1: so naturally the British thought, well, may they must have

2048
02:02:50,520 --> 02:02:53,440
Speaker 1: eaten him? Uh, And they just said, you guys don't

2049
02:02:53,480 --> 02:03:00,960
Speaker 1: have to worry about that parasite anymore. Remember uh, Nathaniel

2050
02:03:01,000 --> 02:03:04,280
Speaker 1: Philbricks in the Heart of the Sea. So the story

2051
02:03:04,320 --> 02:03:06,840
Speaker 1: of the tragic the Whaleship Essex and the book, um,

2052
02:03:07,120 --> 02:03:09,520
Speaker 1: you know, they get to eating each other. And there's

2053
02:03:09,520 --> 02:03:11,240
Speaker 1: a part of the book later where I don't know

2054
02:03:11,240 --> 02:03:13,560
Speaker 1: if it's like apocryphal story or not, but there's a

2055
02:03:13,600 --> 02:03:16,320
Speaker 1: part of the book later where someone meets a survivor

2056
02:03:17,360 --> 02:03:19,320
Speaker 1: of the whaleship Essex and he says like, hey, did

2057
02:03:19,360 --> 02:03:22,640
Speaker 1: you know Bill Johnson? I suppose you the guy says

2058
02:03:22,680 --> 02:03:30,640
Speaker 1: no him. I had him. Oh my, Well, well thanks

2059
02:03:30,680 --> 02:03:33,320
Speaker 1: for coming on, man, Um, I'm looking forward to your

2060
02:03:33,520 --> 02:03:35,480
Speaker 1: I see, I gotta go. I gotta read your whole

2061
02:03:35,560 --> 02:03:39,520
Speaker 1: damn cannon man, your whole damn library. Well please do

2062
02:03:39,800 --> 02:03:42,520
Speaker 1: and keep talking about it on your show. Well it's

2063
02:03:42,600 --> 02:03:50,240
Speaker 1: like it's yeah, um, it's just such well researched, un

2064
02:03:50,720 --> 02:03:56,920
Speaker 1: bullshitty history that like has all like this has like

2065
02:03:57,000 --> 02:04:00,960
Speaker 1: the weird parts. Man, you didn't know you got like

2066
02:04:01,040 --> 02:04:04,320
Speaker 1: a good ear for the weird, you know what I mean,

2067
02:04:04,480 --> 02:04:06,000
Speaker 1: Like and you wedge it in where it doesn't just

2068
02:04:06,040 --> 02:04:08,800
Speaker 1: feel like you're being um, you wedge it in where

2069
02:04:08,800 --> 02:04:11,160
Speaker 1: it doesn't smell like someone just trying to wedge weird

2070
02:04:11,240 --> 02:04:13,600
Speaker 1: stuff in. Like if it's still you find a way

2071
02:04:13,600 --> 02:04:15,320
Speaker 1: to like make it fit, you know. But you got

2072
02:04:15,440 --> 02:04:18,400
Speaker 1: an ear for the strange. Well, thank you. I I'll

2073
02:04:18,440 --> 02:04:22,720
Speaker 1: take that as a compliment, the highest compliment. Maybe it's

2074
02:04:22,760 --> 02:04:25,840
Speaker 1: just that I'm a little strange, and I do think

2075
02:04:25,880 --> 02:04:28,600
Speaker 1: that it's true that you know, uh, history is so

2076
02:04:28,800 --> 02:04:32,920
Speaker 1: much more interesting. Uh then then we were taught in school,

2077
02:04:33,080 --> 02:04:35,640
Speaker 1: you know, like there are these just undercurrents in these

2078
02:04:36,800 --> 02:04:43,040
Speaker 1: bizarre facts and little trip little trick doors and and interconnections.

2079
02:04:43,360 --> 02:04:48,400
Speaker 1: Uh that um, we somehow missed in history class. Um

2080
02:04:48,880 --> 02:04:52,000
Speaker 1: because in the class you couldn't spend an entire semester

2081
02:04:52,240 --> 02:04:55,400
Speaker 1: on a day. Yeah, you know, you just have to

2082
02:04:55,480 --> 02:04:57,600
Speaker 1: gloss over and it takes on this way that just

2083
02:04:57,800 --> 02:05:02,600
Speaker 1: feels not personal. True, So true. Well, good luck finishing

2084
02:05:02,680 --> 02:05:05,400
Speaker 1: your book, Thank you, thank you. I gotta probably I

2085
02:05:05,400 --> 02:05:07,480
Speaker 1: should be working on it right now. I'm a little behind.

2086
02:05:07,720 --> 02:05:09,440
Speaker 1: COVID has kind of slowed me down a little bit.

2087
02:05:10,680 --> 02:05:12,720
Speaker 1: I don't mean that I had COVID. I just mean

2088
02:05:13,560 --> 02:05:15,280
Speaker 1: I couldn't do a lot of the research. Have you

2089
02:05:15,280 --> 02:05:17,240
Speaker 1: got a lot of your travel done? Now? A lot

2090
02:05:17,280 --> 02:05:19,600
Speaker 1: of it. I still got a lot more to go though. Um.

2091
02:05:20,040 --> 02:05:21,600
Speaker 1: And you know I may not get to some of

2092
02:05:21,640 --> 02:05:24,440
Speaker 1: the places, which kind of just drives me nuts. But

2093
02:05:24,720 --> 02:05:27,360
Speaker 1: uh yeah, you just can't go to all the places

2094
02:05:27,520 --> 02:05:30,440
Speaker 1: where Cook went, even on just this one voyage. Lets

2095
02:05:30,440 --> 02:05:33,360
Speaker 1: go hang out and cook inlet in Alaska. I've been

2096
02:05:33,400 --> 02:05:35,880
Speaker 1: there before, but I need to I need to go back.

2097
02:05:36,120 --> 02:05:38,560
Speaker 1: I need to go back. So um, and you've got

2098
02:05:38,680 --> 02:05:40,400
Speaker 1: you You've got a connection to Alaska, don't you have?

2099
02:05:40,920 --> 02:05:43,440
Speaker 1: My brother has been there decades now, and you have

2100
02:05:43,600 --> 02:05:45,680
Speaker 1: some sort of shack up there right, Yeah, we have

2101
02:05:45,760 --> 02:05:49,680
Speaker 1: a place out there. Yea. He lives on cooking, let you,

2102
02:05:49,800 --> 02:05:53,320
Speaker 1: meaning lives an anchorage, but ars checks fars off therea.

2103
02:05:54,160 --> 02:05:55,720
Speaker 1: Well thanks again, we'd love to have be back on.

2104
02:05:55,880 --> 02:05:58,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, man, I highly just really highly recommend um

2105
02:06:00,640 --> 02:06:02,560
Speaker 1: like your books and the kind of the kind of

2106
02:06:02,640 --> 02:06:04,720
Speaker 1: history you do which is just so illuminating. Man. This

2107
02:06:04,800 --> 02:06:11,240
Speaker 1: helps you really understand why you know why America or

2108
02:06:11,480 --> 02:06:13,240
Speaker 1: you know why things look the way they look, and

2109
02:06:13,440 --> 02:06:15,640
Speaker 1: why we remember things the way we remember them, and

2110
02:06:15,760 --> 02:06:20,280
Speaker 1: and what sacrifices were made by people. Well, thank you man,

2111
02:06:20,280 --> 02:06:21,600
Speaker 1: it's been a pleasure. C