WEBVTT - Shell Boss Wael Sawan on Tough Calls, Regret and Leading Through Uncertainty 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:13.120 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:16.840 Somebody in the organization made a call and I respect that. 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:19.160 I mean, are we going to get these calls right? 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:21.400 Every day there's one hundred calls we've made to exit 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:24.599 stuff that actually didn't end up being successful. Do you 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:26.920 regret it or do you deal with what you can control, 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:28.840 which is what do we have ahead of us? And 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:32.320 I am much more of a philosophy. Focus on what 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:35.000 you can control makes life much easier because then you 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:37.320 can actually look forward rather than keep looking back. 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:45.960 I'm Francis Laqua and this is Leaders, the podcast that 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:50.000 really explores what drives the world's most influential people. This 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:52.800 week's episode is well so on the chief executive of Shell, 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:56.480 Europe's largest oil company. We spoke at the end of 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.960 last year, because when you have an opportunity to speak 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.880 to the chief executive of Europe's largest oil company, you 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.720 take it. So the conversation was before the US attack 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:08.720 on Venezuela and its capture of President Maduro, and it 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:12.600 was also before the US Israel war with Iran. And 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.720 while recent events have really upended the global energy industry. 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:19.560 So once time at Shell has drawn praise, especially for 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:24.160 his focus on controlling costs. Since taking over in early 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.720 twenty twenty three, Shell has outperformed its big oil rifles 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.160 as a leader in a challenging and increasingly volatile landscape. 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:34.360 I was keen to hear about the moment so one 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.560 knew he was being considered for Shell's top job. Also 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.959 his controversial choice to pivot away from renewables and his 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:50.960 advice on how to be decisive about investment. Well, thank 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:52.040 you so much for joining us. 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:53.960 Thank you very much, Rassie, and great to be here. 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:55.800 What kind of leader are you? 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:58.800 Look, I've learned I think through first of my father 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.960 to start people here. I remember when he retired, he 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:04.600 worked for three AM. He sort of said at the 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:08.400 time business results are important, but when you leave, the 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.720 number of Christmas hampers you get after you have retired 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.600 from people whose lives you've influenced will be what actually counts. 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:19.840 And so I've always believed you have to start with people. 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.280 You're an oil executive, and I can figure out whether 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.360 you're even maybe you know you get more heat than bankers. 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.320 Does that bother you? 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:31.120 No, it doesn't, because I think the issues we're trying 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:34.560 to sort of work around are really tough issues and 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:39.680 positions of leadership demands a burden of responsibility. I don't 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:41.799 think that should be unexpected. What I need to be 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.600 able to do is to make sure that my compass 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:46.360 is clear, and so I spend quite a bit of 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.400 time in introspection and reflection, and then it's how to 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:51.840 mobilize our organization to deliver. 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:53.560 Well, what's the introspection look like? 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:57.400 It starts with actually recognizing that the world around us 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.160 is moving at an incredibly fast pace, whether it's you 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.440 political changes that we see at the moment, technological changes 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:08.160 with AI climate, and therefore the world that we have 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.760 come from, in particular a company like ours very strong 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.720 engineering culture. In general, we need to move from an 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.400 all knowing culture to an all learning culture because the 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:20.440 world is just unpredictable, it's uncertain, it's not linear. 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:22.560 As an engineer, does it mean you can take emotion 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:24.560 out of it when you problem solve? 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:27.880 I think you can, but I don't think that's healthy. 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:30.320 I think at the heart of it, and it's one 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:34.560 of my own developments when I get too strategic about things. 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:38.760 Good counsel from colleagues around me has been great. You're 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.440 in head mode, make sure that you also touch into heart. Note, 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:43.400 because I don't think you want a divorce head and 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.840 heart even when you're making some of these tough decisions. 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:49.400 Well, when did you first start being like that? You 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.960 remember the first memory as a child that you already 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.120 wanted to think with mind and heart. 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:02.280 I was the captain of our high school SoC team, 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.920 and I remember the burden of responsibility at that time 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.680 we lost the tournament that we were competing for, and 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:14.720 the challenge of lifting up a group of around fifteen 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.560 sixteen people at the time while figuring out how I 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:21.400 lift my own self up. I think was one of 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.760 my first experiences with leadership. But it was addictive, It 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:28.160 was great, and it was depressing, and it was disappointing, 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.279 but it was all all these emotions at the same time, 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.760 and it was a great opportunity. Then as I grew 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:38.200 in my life career, I had more and more opportunities 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.400 to test that. I remember once being given my first 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:45.919 leadership opportunity at CHEL and this poor individual who was 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:48.600 reporting into me. I tried to apply all of the 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:51.640 potential leadership learnings on this one guy that you learned 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:54.160 during your MBA that I learned during my MBA that 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.080 I'd read a lot about, and this poor individual had 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.920 to sort of succumb to all of the leadership one 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:01.560 oh one. 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:02.560 What does that look like? 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:05.840 How do I make sure that I am providing him 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.280 as development plan? How do I intervene to support him 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:10.080 on a daily basis? How do I coach? 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:13.679 Did he say, well, I'm O gay or super gentle? 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.920 And he never pushed back. But as I reflected, as 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.320 I sort of grew in my role, I'm like, poor 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:23.480 individual must have just been cursing the moment that he 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:24.480 got me as a leader. 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:26.800 What did you learn about yourself actually in that first 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:27.520 leadership role? 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:31.159 I think I learned that I have natural biases, right, 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.720 so I love to be out with people. I'm an 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.960 extrovert by nature. But put me into a room on 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:40.320 strategic issues and I can focus a lot more on 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.320 that head than the heart. I also learned around just 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:47.120 the way I drive performance in an organization, finding the 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.960 right balance of when do I reach in and push 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:52.479 hard or when do I step back and create space? 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:57.400 When am I more the advocate the supporter, and when 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:02.960 am I more the individual who is actually catalyzing a change? 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:04.760 But well, I Mischelle is one of the biggest energy 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:06.800 companies in the world. So when do you ever step 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:08.160 back and give space. 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:10.440 What I've seen in my last three years in the 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.279 job is I've gone through phases. The early phase was 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.760 all about really step in and stabilize the company, really 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.000 get it into the performance discipline that I was hoping 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:23.240 we can get to a leaner, fitter, much more competitive company. 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:25.560 We're very clear on the strategy we want to implement. 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.440 I can now step back more and more and actually 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.279 do have time to reflect what are the moves we 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:34.440 want to make, Go out, connect with people, be inspired 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.440 by different ideas from the ones we have Internally. I'm 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:39.800 finding more and more of that space, but that's partly 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.120 because we have done a lot of the heavy lifting 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:44.120 to be able to get clear on where we want 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.320 to go. And we've put some terrific people in place 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:48.839 to be able to lead their respective businesses and functions. 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.200 So is a secret to a good manager or being 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:54.039 good leader being able to adapt to the situation. So 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:55.960 no when to push and no when to reflect. 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.560 Absolutely, I saw that early in my career. I had 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.760 just successfully concluded a leadership rule in Ata at the time, 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:07.760 and I assumed that that leadership posture style was going 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:09.760 to serve me in a different role when I was 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.520 going to New Orleans, and I was absolutely wrong. I 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:17.280 needed to very quickly understand and diagnose what the challenges were, 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.760 what the opportunities were, what the strength of this team was, 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:23.480 and to be able to adapt my style to be 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:25.400 able to help them unlock their full potential. 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.880 After the break, we discuss how while Sawan prepared for 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:35.680 the biggest job of his career, it's normal to have 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:38.120 an inkling you are being considered for a new job, 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:41.360 but it's always hard to be sure. He was in Qatar, 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:45.440 when he held significant leadership roles that Sawan realized he 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:47.920 might be in the running for the top job at SHELL. 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:50.840 I really wanted to hear about this moment and how 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:55.760 he transitioned from the candidate to chief executive. When you 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:58.800 look at your career, how much of a I guess 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:01.040 game changer was that big Catter job. 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.920 It was a huge game changer, a huge game changer. 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:05.800 Did you understand at the time that there were maybe 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:07.600 testing you to then become chief executive? 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:09.840 Of course, it was the sort of job that you 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.480 figured you were on a good track. And Shell. I'll 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:14.040 be honest with you, it took me a while to 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.800 recognize and to convince myself that I was in line 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.080 one day to become the CEO, because you know, you're 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:21.760 trying to do the best that you can in the 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:23.600 jobs that you have. But I can tell you almost 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:25.600 every single job that I had been given in Shell, 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.280 I thought there were others who were more qualified than 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:30.840 I was. And so it created that not in my 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.040 stomach going into the job, I need to work harder, 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.040 I need to do better. And so Cutter was one 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:38.720 of those moments for me. It was a difficult rule 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.839 because the two three weeks after I stepped into a rule, 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:44.280 we had the safety incident where we lost two of 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:48.080 our colleagues. I struggled as a leader because it was 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:50.400 under my watch that we had lost those two people, 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.760 two colleagues whose families I knew, and it catalyzed us 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.160 into a different place. It catalyzed us into space whereas 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:00.640 a group we had to figure out how do we 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:03.360 heal and then how do we reach to the stars. 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:05.800 So when you have a new job, be it a 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:08.640 catter or then CEO, how do you problem solve? How 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:10.920 do you first of all spend a bit of time 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:13.720 understanding what you need to fix and then go about 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:14.120 fixing it. 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.679 I spend a lot of time once I know I'm 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.840 in a new job, just meeting with folks both internally 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.239 and externally, to be able to just listen to perspectives. 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.920 Where are the value polls, how a shell doing? What 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:28.240 can we do better? What are the benchmarks telling us? 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:30.320 I then like to move into a space of actually 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.800 creating clarity of direction, because I find an organization is 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.439 not at its best without that clarity. And so after that, 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:39.920 for me is the next step, which is really setting 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.400 that direction. We've done that in my role as CEO, 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.360 but more and more we linked it to the purpose 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:48.400 of what we want to do to become that leading 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:49.800 integrated energy company. 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:55.120 Oil companies for a lot of moment we're also kind 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:57.840 of integral to the energy transition. Right A lot was 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:00.640 put on oil companies to make sure that you did 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.559 your part to become cleaner and greener. Is that fair? 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:08.960 I think it's absolutely fair that we, along with the 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.920 multiple other stakeholders, have a role to play in the 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.880 energy transition. So customers have a big role to play, 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:17.680 governments have a big role to play. Energy producers like 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:19.680 ourselves have a big role to play, and what we 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:22.720 have found as a company is we have to play 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:26.000 to our competitive strengths. So yes, we're very strong in oil, 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.760 we're very strong in gas, We're very strong in trading, 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.840 very strong in marketing. So how do we take that 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.079 nexcess of strengths that we have and actually contribute to 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.280 an energy transition that we know is not going to 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.520 be linear, that we know is going to be complex, 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.280 And how do we become a stabilizing factor for our 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:44.120 customers as they try to navigate it. 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.280 You were speaking very plainly three years ago, right when 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.640 you became chief executive, when some of your rivals or 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:52.800 competitors were trying to say, like, look, we're going to 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:56.080 be quite good, Actually we're almost renewables company. Were you 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.480 just more honest than some of your competitors? 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:00.439 I think for quite some time, what we had been 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:04.199 trying to do is maybe speak to multiple stakeholders, and 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.960 unfortunately that can come across as almost being all things 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.920 to all people. I felt it was really important to 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.320 one build our own beliefs around the energy system, really 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:16.320 get clear what our role was going to be, and 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.080 then just say it for what it was recognizing that 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:21.959 not everyone was going to agree with it, that we're 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:25.000 always going to have also a small group of avid supporters, 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.680 and that what was important was for those eighty percent 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:32.920 seventy percent in the middle to hear our convictions and 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.000 then most importantly, to see us follow through on those convictions. 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.480 And so what we wanted to do was to position 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:42.400 ourselves as a player that is supporting the energy of 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:46.840 today while looking forward. And it wasn't about choosing sides. 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.080 It was about finding the role that we can uniquely 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.480 play to be able to address energy security, energy affordability, 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:58.199 and energy sustainability. And people, I think some would prefer 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.959 it's either this or that you felt. No, we are 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:03.640 building a company that we want to be the best performing, 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:07.040 best returning company, not just today but for decades to come, 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.400 and therefore it's incumbent upon us to be able to 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.080 look at not just the energy system of today, but 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:14.440 to help shape the energy system of the future as well. 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.240 When we come back, I speak to well so one 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:25.560 about making decisions and managing regrets. Big decisions have shaped 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.280 Swan's time at Shell. Some before he became chief executive, 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:32.400 Others on his watch, there's a sale of its Permian 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.640 base and assets for nine point five billion dollars during COVID, 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.920 which was seen as a coup for the buyer, Conico Phillips, 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:42.240 and the earlier exit from Guyana before it became one 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:46.880 of the world's hottest frontier oil plays. Different moments, different leadership, 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:51.640 but both raised big questions about long term value. In 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:55.920 twenty nineteen, Shell decides to sell the eure basically Permian assets. 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.480 Was that a mistake, No, it wasn't the mistake At 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:00.480 the time what we were trying to do it was 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:04.079 a very different context. We had a significant amount of debt. 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:06.440 We needed to be able to actually pay down some 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.200 of that debt to become a much healthier company. We 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.000 had tried, actually before the sale of the Permian to 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.640 look at buying and growing our permium position. We competed 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.320 in a couple of different processes and were not successful. 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:20.760 So we were getting to the point where our position 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:23.680 was just not large enough, not material enough to be 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.400 able to win. And so what we ended up doing 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.280 is we sold indeed the Permian and we use some 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.240 of those funds to be able to pay down debt 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.559 and continue to strengthen the balance sheet. Today we enjoy 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:36.640 one of the strongest balance sheets in the sector as 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:38.440 a result of many of the choices that we have 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:39.720 been making over the recent years. 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:41.840 It could have been a great asset. So is your 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.640 philosophy or regrets? Do you sometimes think about what could 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:45.880 have been? 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:48.920 We always look back. I mean every single year I 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.800 take to my board what we call a post investment review. 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:53.840 It's all the good, the bad, and the ugly of 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:56.120 where we have invested, the choices we have made. Because 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:58.280 it's humbling to be able to sort of look back 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.200 with the benefit of hindsight and say what went wrong? 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:05.840 What went right? Sometimes it's execution. Sometimes it's our view 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:08.520 of the strategic lens that we looked at the world through. 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.120 But it's important to continue to look at that, not 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.880 to regret it, but much more to learn from it 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.320 as we look to then build the muscle for the future. 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:18.280 Yeah, it told me about Guiana. It could have been 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.800 one of the most important assets. Right for shell regrets there? 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:26.080 Look again, I mean we empower people in the organization 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.080 to be able to meet budgetary requirements. We just had 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.960 a couple of wells that hadn't succeeded. Somebody in the 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.160 organization made a call, and I respect that. I mean, 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.600 are we going to get these calls right? Every day 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:39.800 there's one hundred calls we've made to exit stuff that 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.560 actually didn't end up being successful. Again, do you regret it? 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:45.680 Or do you deal with what you can control, which 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:47.760 is what do we have ahead of us? And I 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.400 am much more of a philosophy. Focus on what you 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.120 can control makes life much easier because then you can 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.160 actually look forward rather than keep looking back. 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:56.520 Okay, so what can you control now? 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.600 What you can control is becoming that leaner, fitter, most 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.880 competitive company. Make sure that you continue to build resilience, 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.000 get that balance sheet in a very strong position, get 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.960 your businesses delivering cash, and making sure that you are ready. 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:13.040 Because the world around us is uncertain. We need to 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.360 be able to actually have the strength to go through 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.720 the cycles and to generate value and grow through those cycles. 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:19.840 That's what we can control. 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.160 Well, it's bigger better. I know again that rumors of 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:25.720 a combination between SHELL and BP keep on swirling around, 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:29.200 and they've been doing so for years. Conceptually, with something 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.080 as big as that makes sense. 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.040 I don't start from a position that Bigger is better. 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.960 Undoubtedly there are parts of our business where scale matters, right, 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:40.960 because scale allows you to be able to be competitive. 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.040 You can spread your resources in some of the areas 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:46.600 where you can unlock a bit more value. But scale 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.160 for the sake of scale is mistaken. Some of the 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.800 largest MNA deals are the least successful MNA deals because 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.560 they are massively complex. So I start more from a 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:58.520 place of focus on what your strength are. If you're 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:00.320 ever going to do m and A, first set a 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.120 very high bar, make sure that you can create value 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:05.800 from it, and then if you transact, put all of 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.400 your efforts into making sure that it delivers value. But 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:10.720 do it for the right reasons. Don't do it because 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:12.960 of FOMO, don't do it because you want to be bigger. 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.480 Do it because it creates value for your shareholders. 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:17.400 Longer term, we've seen loads of m and A and 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.880 banking actually fail because the DNA of the culture was different, 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.840 because the team didn't work together, be at risk, take 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.120 or something like that. Is it the same for oil companies? 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:30.560 Absolutely? I think DNA does matter. Culture does matter, and 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.760 again it depends on the scale of the aggregation of 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.000 the companies. But if it's two big companies coming together. 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:39.240 I would say culture is one of the biggest things 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:40.480 you need to be able to look at. 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:42.360 What do you say the culture of Shell is like. 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.320 So I think our strength has always been the nature 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:47.400 of the company is high values. That's one of the 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.800 reasons I joined Shell. It's a company that focuses on respect, 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:54.160 on integrity. But we're trying to evolve the culture further. 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.920 We want to have more edge in our performance focus. 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:00.000 We want to look at leveraging more the different parts 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.600 of Shelter unlock value. We call it one Shell how 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.400 we are able to truly come together as an organization. 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.320 So there are elements that play into that. I'd say 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:10.560 at the heart of the cultural shift that we're trying 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:12.600 to make is the point I made earlier around going 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.160 from an all knowwer and all learner. Because of our 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:20.520 engineering culture, we like to solve for discrete outcomes and 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:22.439 that's what we built and it's been successful for us 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.119 for decades, over a century. And as we go into 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:28.399 the energy transition, as we go into the world that 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.239 we're going into also with the advent of AI and 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.040 how you leverage AI and what we do with some 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:36.919 of the challenges we see on the geopolitical level, we 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:40.399 have an opportunity to be able to have the humility 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:44.080 to actually step back and reflect. How do we change, 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:46.720 how do we challenge the paradigms we have had in 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:48.320 the past, and how do we come up with new 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:50.280 ways of being able to steward the company. 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:52.320 But if you look at the numbers of how much 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:54.760 energy we need also to just face the data centers 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.760 and AI usage, I mean, the numbers are so big 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:00.040 it's almost difficult to get your head round it. Do 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:01.960 you have to foresee the future or do you need 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.560 to just react in a way that's in your control. 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.359 I think you have to have a clear view of 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:09.560 the energy system. And I would agree with your frenzy 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:11.280 and I think at the end of the day, we 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:15.399 see that primary energy demand is going to continue to 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.040 grow for quite some time by a lot, bio lot, 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:21.320 and it's been happening. I mean people talk about energy transition. 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.440 Of course, what we have been seeing is energy edition. 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.639 We are at peak oil demand, peak coal demand, peak 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:30.919 gas demand, peak renewables demand, peak biodemand the world is 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.560 trying to get its hands on all forms of energy. 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:35.919 For many of the reasons that you talked about. So 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.560 while we cannot predict the future, what we can do 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.160 is sort of really make some very clear deterministic bets 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.400 on the future. One is gas for us, for example, 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:49.040 we see gas as being a stabilizing force in energy 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:52.439 systems that continue to transform. That allows us to be 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:54.600 able to say, okay, we are one of the biggest, 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:58.480 we are the largest international player in LNG, and make 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.560 sure that you continue to play that with lower and 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:05.280 lower methane emissions, but really be there to give our 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:07.760 customers that versatile, reliable feel that day. 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.040 Seek Well, what's your north star? So if you look 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.000 at your day, how much is it meetings you know, 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:15.719 or things that you need to deal with that you 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.680 could have that you want to preempt, and how much 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:20.080 of it is actually firefighting. 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.840 The ratio, i would say, has swung more and more 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.720 to actually controlling my own agenda. When you start, you're 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.560 still learning, you're sort of responding to different stimuli, and 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.560 now I've had the opportunity to actually shape that. My 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.439 coach has sort of told me the most important thing 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:38.080 you should be doing is to be purposeful. By the way, 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:40.320 some of that day is spent having dinner with the 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.679 kids and my wife be purposeful and be present in 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.560 that moment, and other parts of the day are about 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:51.800 self exercise, Jim, or of course at work. Really be 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.720 purposeful in this meeting. Are we trying to open up 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.359