Speaker 1: December first was World Aid's Day, and December the entire
Speaker 1: month is HIV Awareness Month.
Speaker 2: And this December is particularly important because it's the fortieth
Speaker 2: anniversary of the first five cases of HIV.
Speaker 1: Wow, forty years feels like not a long time, but
Speaker 1: so much has happened in those forty years.
Speaker 2: It's definitely not a long scientific time, you know, And
Speaker 2: you're right, so much has happened. Even thinking about what
Speaker 2: it meant to have HIV in the eighties and what
Speaker 2: it meant for your life compared to what it means
Speaker 2: now thanks to advances in medicine and vaxine development, all
Speaker 2: kinds of things that are coming along for the treatment
Speaker 2: of HIV and AIDS.
Speaker 1: Right, and our understanding I think of the virus has changed, yes,
Speaker 1: and the way that we interact with people who have
Speaker 1: HIV has changed, thankfully.
Speaker 2: You're right. I think there's so much to unpack even
Speaker 2: though it's a short scientific time. There have been incredible developments, absolutely,
Speaker 2: and I can't wait for us to learn all about it.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science,
Speaker 1: pop culture, and a healthy dose of friendship.
Speaker 2: This week, we're talking all about HIV Now, HIV has
Speaker 2: been around for a while, and there's been all kinds
Speaker 2: of rumors like, oh, they have a cure and the
Speaker 2: government just doesn't want us to have it. But scientists
Speaker 2: have been working on an HIV vaccine for a pretty
Speaker 2: long time. Yeah, there's a lot swirling around, But what's
Speaker 2: most important is what the science is telling us, and
Speaker 2: that's what we're going to get into today. I just
Speaker 2: saw this story in the Washington Post about an Argentinian
Speaker 2: woman who just became the second person on record whose
Speaker 2: body might have completely eliminated the HIV virus on its own.
Speaker 2: And when something like this happens, it's a huge deal
Speaker 2: for scientists who can study what happened in the patient's
Speaker 2: body and potentially use those findings to develop a cure.
Speaker 2: Let's get into the recitation.
Speaker 1: So what do we know.
Speaker 2: Well, we know HIV stands for the human immuno deficiency
Speaker 2: virus and it's been around for a long time. It's
Speaker 2: been about forty years since the first case of HIV
Speaker 2: was diagnosed.
Speaker 1: We also know that HIV is the virus that causes AIDS,
Speaker 1: so that's similar to how SARS CoV two is the
Speaker 1: virus that can lead to COVID nineteen and HIV affects
Speaker 1: a lot of people.
Speaker 2: So about thirty seven million people worldwide have HIV, and
Speaker 2: about one point two million of those are Americans.
Speaker 1: And we know that HIV is a virus that attacks
Speaker 1: the body's immune system and if it goes untreated, it
Speaker 1: can lead to AIDS. So currently there's no cure for HIV,
Speaker 1: but there are ways to control it through treatment that
Speaker 1: allow those living with HIV to have long, healthy lives.
Speaker 1: So what do we want to know? I think I
Speaker 1: want to know how is the vaccine development for HIV
Speaker 1: different from other types of vaccine development. We've talked about
Speaker 1: vaccine development in previous labs, and so I'm curious if
Speaker 1: it's the same, it's different, and if it's different, how
Speaker 1: is it different?
Speaker 2: And I think before we can even get to vaccine development,
Speaker 2: I need to know some basic biology about HIV. What's
Speaker 2: it looking like, how's it working?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: I think we have to kind of understand those things
Speaker 2: before we know how we're going to stop it in
Speaker 2: its tracks. I also want to know the timeline to
Speaker 2: getting here. We didn't just start trying to make a
Speaker 2: vaccine first. There were medicines made available that now feel
Speaker 2: like super medicines compared to what may have seemed possible
Speaker 2: in the eighties. So there are things that can make
Speaker 2: HIV undetectable and thus non transmissible. And why is this
Speaker 2: virus so different from other viruses that it's taken so
Speaker 2: long to develop a vaccine? COVID got us one in
Speaker 2: the vaccine in two years every time, yet hyper speed.
Speaker 2: But this is a very good question. Let's jump into
Speaker 2: the dissection. Our guest for the next two laps is
Speaker 2: doctor Christine Daniels.
Speaker 4: My name is Christine Daniels, and I recently finished my
Speaker 4: post doc at Duke University's Human Vaccine Institute. Christine's work
Speaker 4: focuses on developing and testing novel or new vaccine candidates.
Speaker 1: Christine is another one of me and Zakia's actual friends
Speaker 1: in real life. We always tell you we know some
Speaker 1: very smart people. We all went to Douke at the
Speaker 1: same time, and so you might hear us call her Christine,
Speaker 1: but it is definitely doctor Daniels. Okay, so first things first,
Speaker 1: let's talk about the HIV virus and to understand what
Speaker 1: it is and how it works. We ask doctor Daniels
Speaker 1: to explain it to us in the context of sarskov two,
Speaker 1: the virus that causes COVID nineteen.
Speaker 4: So broadly speaking, HIV and sarskobe two are very similar.
Speaker 2: Let's start with their structure. HIV and sars kov two
Speaker 2: have a pretty similar structure.
Speaker 3: They're both envelope viruses.
Speaker 1: This means that the virus is surrounded by an outer shell.
Speaker 3: They're both expressed.
Speaker 4: Their glycoproteins, or their spike proteins per se on their surface.
Speaker 2: So that envelope or outer shell of the virus is
Speaker 2: covered in these little spikes or proteins, and those proteins
Speaker 2: have little sugars that's the glyco attached to them, and
Speaker 2: those proteins allow the virus to bind or dock onto
Speaker 2: host cells and that leads to infection.
Speaker 1: And HIV and sarscov two are also similar in terms
Speaker 1: of their genetic material.
Speaker 3: They're both RNA viruses.
Speaker 2: This means that they have single stranded RNA or ribonucleic
Speaker 2: acid as their genetic material instead of double stranded DNA
Speaker 2: like human cells have.
Speaker 1: So in each HIV particle, you've got RNA inside surrounded
Speaker 1: by the envelope with a bunch of little spikes all over.
Speaker 1: Called glycoproteins, and so when HIV enters the bloodstream and
Speaker 1: makes contact with the sell those little spikes are attaching
Speaker 1: to the surface and they begin to fuse with the
Speaker 1: host cell. This allows the center of the HIV particle,
Speaker 1: that RNA, to go right into the whole sale and
Speaker 1: to get converted back into DNA. So now you've got
Speaker 1: viral DNA in your wholesale. So from there, the wholesale
Speaker 1: is hijacked by HIV and begins to make more HIV
Speaker 1: particles inside the body. But our body has an amazing
Speaker 1: natural defense when it comes to fighting off viruses, the
Speaker 1: immune system, and when our immune system senses that there
Speaker 1: is an intruder, it can unleash a swarm of targeted
Speaker 1: and general antibodies that will attack the virus, neutralizing it.
Speaker 2: So remember those spikes we talked about covering the outside
Speaker 2: of the virus. Those glycoproteins are what's specifically targeted by antibodies.
Speaker 2: So stars CoV two and HIV viruses are structurally so similar.
Speaker 2: In fact, the decades that have gone into developing the
Speaker 2: HIV vaccine made it possible to develop the COVID vaccine
Speaker 2: so quickly.
Speaker 4: Because they're so structurally similar, we're able to leverage the
Speaker 4: structure based a vaccine platform to design a vaccine for
Speaker 4: COVID nineteen.
Speaker 2: So understanding what the virus looks like structurally, what happens
Speaker 2: when it gets into your body? How are vaccines disrupting
Speaker 2: this process? How do they work? Doctor Daniels gave us
Speaker 2: a great analogy. She thinks of a vaccine like a mugshot.
Speaker 2: The vaccine is going to tell your body, Hey, this
Speaker 2: is who you're looking for. This particle looks like this,
Speaker 2: It has this certain protein on it. When you see it,
Speaker 2: you know what to do. All systems go.
Speaker 1: Now that we know generally how the HIV particle is
Speaker 1: structured and how vaccines work in general, how would an
Speaker 1: effective HIV vaccine work.
Speaker 4: My lab specialized in protein design and expression, so we
Speaker 4: use what we know about how the natural virus is
Speaker 4: structured in its modes of infections in order to design
Speaker 4: synthetic versions of it that mimic the virus but aren't infectious.
Speaker 4: And using what we know, we're able to modify these
Speaker 4: synthetic versions of the virus to help increase the body's
Speaker 4: chances of recognizing them. Basically, instead of trying to redesign
Speaker 4: a fake version of the entire virus. You just take
Speaker 4: the piece of the virus that your body sees and
Speaker 4: develops an immune response against, and that piece of the
Speaker 4: HIV virus that your body sees, that's those spike proteins
Speaker 4: we talked about that are spread out all over the
Speaker 4: envelope of the virus, the glycoproteins. So you have this
Speaker 4: big virus and you have these proteins spiking all over
Speaker 4: the surface. We just take one of those spike proteins
Speaker 4: and we just want to show that to the body
Speaker 4: so the body focuses on the right region. The problem is, though,
Speaker 4: that sometimes just one little piece isn't enough for the
Speaker 4: body to generate a strong immune response. And so what
Speaker 4: you can do is you can attach that piece, so
Speaker 4: that spike that envelope protein onto a nanoparticle and you
Speaker 4: can display multiple copies, so it's kind of like a
Speaker 4: mini virus. And also the NATO particle itself is composed
Speaker 4: of materials that will also activate your immune response. So
Speaker 4: you get a robust immune response because you're showing multiple
Speaker 4: copies of the right target. And then you have something
Speaker 4: else that's stimulating supporting cells to help enhance that immune response.
Speaker 1: All of this is blowing my mind. So doctor Daniels
Speaker 1: works on creating a copy of the envelope of an
Speaker 1: HIV particle covered in those glycoprotein spikes that your body
Speaker 1: will recognize and develop a defense against. And by the way,
Speaker 1: sorry's CoV two vaccines. You know, Maderna, Pfizer, and Johnson
Speaker 1: and Johnson. They may have different strategies, but they all
Speaker 1: are working towards the same goal to help your body
Speaker 1: create a strong immune response against the coronavirus spike protein
Speaker 1: that surrounds the virus.
Speaker 2: And antibodies are one part of that immune response. Antibodies
Speaker 2: are tiny proteins that help your body recognize and clear
Speaker 2: foreign toxins, bacteria, and viral particles.
Speaker 1: So they're like the bouncers outside the club.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's perfect, And Christine mentions neutralizing antibodies And if
Speaker 2: you play on that bouncer metaphor, neutralizing antibodies are binding
Speaker 2: to the outside of a viral particle, so that those
Speaker 2: spike proteins can't bind to any whost sales. So it's
Speaker 2: like if the bouncers make a circle around you, right,
Speaker 2: don't have contact, You're not what I see like when
Speaker 2: they pick you up, when they hold the arms and
Speaker 2: the legs and carry you out the club. That's what
Speaker 2: neutralizing antibodies are doing.
Speaker 1: I've seen that happen to some people. It's pretty embarrassing.
Speaker 1: They say, your evening is over, it's time to retire
Speaker 1: to the boudoir.
Speaker 2: This is really amazing work. Tt It feels like something
Speaker 2: we would do if we had a lab together. Yeah,
Speaker 2: biology with nanoparticles.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we'd be all over it.
Speaker 2: Man, this must be really challenging work though.
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't want to pretend like I know how
Speaker 1: to do everything with nanoparticles same, but it sounds so cool.
Speaker 1: I would love this.
Speaker 2: All right, we're going to take a break, but when
Speaker 2: we get back, we're going to talk to doctor Daniels
Speaker 2: about the progress we've made so far towards an effective
Speaker 2: HIV vaccine and how far we have to go.
Speaker 1: We're back and right before we want to break, we
Speaker 1: talked about non neutralizing antibodies, neutralizing antibodies and everything in between.
Speaker 1: But if you want to know more about that, make
Speaker 1: sure that you tune into our episodes in the New Year,
Speaker 1: where we're talking all about the immune system. And before
Speaker 1: we get back to talking about the HIV vaccine Zakia.
Speaker 1: What's on tap next week.
Speaker 2: Next week, we're continuing our conversation with doctor Daniels around
Speaker 2: the development of an effective HIV vaccine, But we're gonna
Speaker 2: shift the lens just a little bit from the science
Speaker 2: to the people, because we know science doesn't happen in
Speaker 2: a vacuum. So we'll be talking through the social context
Speaker 2: around HIV over the past forty years and the people
Speaker 2: who are affected most.
Speaker 1: All right, let's get back to the show.
Speaker 2: So here's what I want to know. We understand the similarities,
Speaker 2: and we understand that work on the HIV vaccine could
Speaker 2: have provided some scaffolding for process and distribution and other
Speaker 2: developments with the COVID nineteen vaccine. But the COVID nineteen
Speaker 2: vaccine got up and running pretty quickly, and we know,
Speaker 2: you know a lot of people we're working on it.
Speaker 2: A lot of.
Speaker 1: Resources were poured into it.
Speaker 2: What's been taking the HIV vaccine, which has been a
Speaker 2: development for many decades, what's been taking it so long?
Speaker 2: So COVID was developed really quickly because it's an easier
Speaker 2: pathogen to design a vaccine against.
Speaker 1: So even though HIV and SARS CoV two are structurally
Speaker 1: similar and are both RNA viruses that use RNA as
Speaker 1: their primary genetic material. A major difference is that SARS
Speaker 1: CoV two doesn't mutate as frequently as HIV.
Speaker 4: HIV mutates incredibly quickly. It can incur about ten mutations
Speaker 4: per replication cycle, and the replication cycle is less than
Speaker 4: twenty four hours. Scientists have estimate that one mutation of
Speaker 4: SARS CoV two is established every eleven days or so.
Speaker 4: So now we're looking at HIV having a mutation rate
Speaker 4: this four times that of sars CoV two. So developing
Speaker 4: a vaccine is able to accommodate all of that variation,
Speaker 4: it's just really hard to do. So the way that
Speaker 4: we try to do that is by designing vaccines that
Speaker 4: are based on the conserved or of the HIV virus,
Speaker 4: and so even if the virus mutates, those are regions
Speaker 4: that don't mutate as frequently, and so if you get
Speaker 4: a response against those sites, then you can likely be
Speaker 4: protected against a wide range of viruses. So that's the approach,
Speaker 4: and that theoretically you know that should work.
Speaker 1: The other challenge for developing an HIV vaccine is the
Speaker 1: length of time of infection. The infection window for sarskov
Speaker 1: two is much shorter than HIV, and like we said before,
Speaker 1: once someone is infected, that person has HIV for life
Speaker 1: with very few exceptions.
Speaker 4: So an HIV infected individual can live with HIV and
Speaker 4: not experience any symptoms for a long time even though
Speaker 4: they're infected with virus and it's infecting a body, and
Speaker 4: not display symptom until they're very sick.
Speaker 2: That also means there's a much longer window for HIV
Speaker 2: to replicate inside your body, so.
Speaker 4: It can mutate, but it's less probable just based on
Speaker 4: that time window and the amount of times that would
Speaker 4: have to replicate in a person within that time window.
Speaker 1: And lastly, HIV is particularly elusive because it's able to
Speaker 1: essentially hide itself from the immune system until it's too late.
Speaker 1: HIV is covered with these sugars called glycans. The glycans
Speaker 1: can attach to the envelope, that hard candy shell of
Speaker 1: the virus and effectively hide the spike proteins from any
Speaker 1: suspecting antibodies. So that's the challenge.
Speaker 4: How do you generate a response that is able to
Speaker 4: learn to bind or obade those black cans to target
Speaker 4: the site.
Speaker 2: That's really tricky because cells in our body naturally have
Speaker 2: glycans all over them, So your immune system isn't going
Speaker 2: to kick in the gear when it sees glycans because
Speaker 2: that would mean you're essentially attacking yourself.
Speaker 4: So in order to generate an effective HIV vaccine, we
Speaker 4: need to figure out a way to generate antibodies that
Speaker 4: are able to bind to the glycans and to the
Speaker 4: protein at the same times. That way they won't be autoreactive.
Speaker 4: And that's just hard to do.
Speaker 2: I have a new appreciation for the challenges associated with
Speaker 2: vaccine design against HIV.
Speaker 1: Right, imagine trying to do a puzzle and every time
Speaker 1: you go to put a piece down, all the pieces
Speaker 1: change their shape.
Speaker 2: Or they're saying you basic, we got to put down
Speaker 2: two pieces at a time glancing in protein.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's no wonder this vaccine is so hard to develop.
Speaker 2: But you know, vaccines aren't the only line of defense. PREP,
Speaker 2: which is pre exposure prophylaxis, is medicine that people can
Speaker 2: take to prevent getting HIV. So when you take PREP
Speaker 2: as prescribed, it will reduce your risk of contracting HIV
Speaker 2: from sex by about ninety nine percent. That's a huge drop.
Speaker 1: Prep works by setting up fortified walls around the cell
Speaker 1: that HIV is trying to infect, so those spike proteins
Speaker 1: can't bind and infect and as a result of that,
Speaker 1: they can't replicate inside the whole cell.
Speaker 4: It's great because if people take it every day, then
Speaker 4: it reduces their exposure to infection. However, they have to
Speaker 4: take it every day, simply stated. You can think about
Speaker 4: it like something such as birth control. Birth control, like
Speaker 4: if you're taking a pill, it's usually like ninety to
Speaker 4: ninety seven percent effective if you take it according to
Speaker 4: the instructions. The instructions say that you have to take
Speaker 4: the pill at the exact same time every day in
Speaker 4: order for it to reach the efficacy For the people
Speaker 4: that use this type of contraceptive, how many times have
Speaker 4: you not taken it at two two pm every day?
Speaker 3: How many times have you missed a day?
Speaker 4: If you think about vitamins, do you take your vitamins
Speaker 4: every day regularly?
Speaker 3: Do you go to the gym every day regularly?
Speaker 4: All of these behavioral things that we know will positively
Speaker 4: impact our health and our longevity, our quality of life.
Speaker 2: Remember T T shoes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you didn't hear the shoe story, go back
Speaker 1: and listen to the lab right before this one.
Speaker 2: Where we talk about, you know, forgetfulness consistency. Taking a
Speaker 2: pill every day for the rest of your life can
Speaker 2: be costly, Like a lot of people might not have
Speaker 2: access to the resources or insurance that allows them to
Speaker 2: get that medication consistently.
Speaker 4: So we need a vaccine because a vaccine will go
Speaker 4: into healthy individuals before they have any potential for exposure
Speaker 4: and prevent them from being infected. You take the full
Speaker 4: regiment of the vaccine, then you're prevented from ever getting
Speaker 4: the virus. And so even if there's a few instances
Speaker 4: of breakthrough, majority of the population will be protected so
Speaker 4: they will never have to do that everyday treatment or
Speaker 4: every day preventative pill. I'm really interested in where we
Speaker 4: are now, as we learn with COVID, getting a vaccine
Speaker 4: approved and on the market can be a very involved,
Speaker 4: expensive and time consuming process.
Speaker 1: Okay, So once a novel or new vaccine candidate is
Speaker 1: developed in a lab, it goes through a really rigorous
Speaker 1: evaluation process where it's tested for safety and effectiveness in
Speaker 1: humans before it's licensed for use. And this includes several
Speaker 1: different phases of clinical trials. You probably remember hearing about
Speaker 1: that with the COVID vaccines too, So we wanted to
Speaker 1: know from doctor Daniels, where are we at in terms
Speaker 1: of progress towards an effective HIV vaccine? Are we close?
Speaker 4: Learning from my predecessors, I'm not going to stay a timeline.
Speaker 4: What I will say is that we are having promising
Speaker 4: results from studies that suggest that we may be on
Speaker 4: the right path. I'm sure it's hard to predict because
Speaker 4: historically the HIV vaccine has been pretty elusive.
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty four, when HIV was first determined as
Speaker 1: the cause of AIDS, the United States Health and Human
Speaker 1: Services Secretary Margaret Heckler said that she believed a vaccine
Speaker 1: for HIV would be ready for testing in two years.
Speaker 2: There have been multiple trials in different phases through the years.
Speaker 2: Most notably, vax Gen got FDA approval for the first
Speaker 2: large scale Phase three clinical trial of an HIV vaccine
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety eight. That vaccine was called vax zero
Speaker 2: zero four, but it ultimately failed. For a deep dive
Speaker 2: on that, check out the June second episode of Gimletz
Speaker 2: podcast Not Pasted It, which really breaks it down.
Speaker 1: But there was a clinical trial in two thousand and
Speaker 1: nine with positive results.
Speaker 4: So today the only effective trial has been by the
Speaker 4: r one four to fourth trial that was done in
Speaker 4: humans and it led to about thirty percent protection.
Speaker 1: The RV one forty four trial was a partnership between
Speaker 1: the United States and the Royal Thai governments. From two
Speaker 1: thousand and three to two thousand and six, over sixteen
Speaker 1: thousand people volunteered to receive a two vaccine combination, one
Speaker 1: prime and one boost. When the results were released in
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, with a thirty two percent efficacy
Speaker 1: rate for preventing HIV, it became the only trial that
Speaker 1: had any evidence of effectiveness and remains so to date.
Speaker 1: You need a much higher efficacy rate to get approval.
Speaker 1: But there were some really valuable learnings from this trial that.
Speaker 4: Enabled us to learn a lot about what type of
Speaker 4: responses are necessary. So that's kind of when we learned
Speaker 4: a lot of information about the fact that neutralizing and
Speaker 4: non neutralizing antibodies contribute to the response. And people have
Speaker 4: followed up on the things that were learned from that
Speaker 4: study in terms of like more recently, there are preliminary
Speaker 4: results from a lab from scripts that show that they
Speaker 4: were able to elicit precursor antibodies that may have that
Speaker 4: breath and potency that we want to listit pre neutralizing
Speaker 4: antibodies and ninety seven percent of their participants, and so
Speaker 4: that's really promising. It's not a final result, you know,
Speaker 4: it's not we elicited neutralizing antibodies, but something that has
Speaker 4: the potential to become a neutralizing antibody. But if that happens,
Speaker 4: then that would jump to the front of the line
Speaker 4: as a candidate.
Speaker 2: So this feels like we are trending in the right direction.
Speaker 1: Yes, all of this information from doctor Daniels has made
Speaker 1: me very excited about the possibilities.
Speaker 2: But I think if we've learned anything over the past
Speaker 2: two years, it is that we are not blank canvases
Speaker 2: for scientific advances, and that it is going to take
Speaker 2: a lot of understanding of social dynamics and just situating
Speaker 2: this research in the context of what's happened before and
Speaker 2: what's happening today.
Speaker 1: Right. I think that is such a great point because
Speaker 1: with all that we knew before the pandemic hit, a
Speaker 1: lot of us thought that once the vaccine came out
Speaker 1: that everyone would be willing to take it, and that
Speaker 1: wasn't the case. So when I think about the HIV vaccine,
Speaker 1: I wonder what pushback there might be from the general population.
Speaker 2: Yes, and you know, even though it is a short history,
Speaker 2: it is a very complex history, full of medical neglect
Speaker 2: and mismanagement in the early stages by research institutions, and
Speaker 2: so I think there is a lot to unpack and
Speaker 2: even just day to day general rumors that we kind
Speaker 2: of mentioned at the top of the episode, how will
Speaker 2: that affect how people receive new advances as it relates
Speaker 2: to HIV. So it's time for one thing. I want
Speaker 2: to know what's been on your mind or what you're
Speaker 2: loving this week.
Speaker 1: TT For me around this time of year, I think
Speaker 1: the fields are always the same, and so my one
Speaker 1: thing this week is friendship. This time of year always
Speaker 1: feels difficult for a lot of people for a lot
Speaker 1: of different reasons. Some people are far away from the
Speaker 1: people that they love, some people have lost people that
Speaker 1: they love. And I think that friendship, family, family, whatever
Speaker 1: you want to call it, your chosen family, I think
Speaker 1: that it's always super important to tap into those networks.
Speaker 1: And so that's what's been getting me through this week,
Speaker 1: is my friends and my family. So that's my one thing.
Speaker 1: I love it. What's your one thing? Ze?
Speaker 2: My one thing this week is kind of along those
Speaker 2: same lines. I've been doing a lot of reflection and
Speaker 2: having all the feels, and I've been using these prompts
Speaker 2: called moonless and l I S t s. They're on Instagram,
Speaker 2: but you can also find them I think at moonliss
Speaker 2: dot com, and they're just open ended prompts to help
Speaker 2: you think and reflect on how you're feeling. I think
Speaker 2: I talked about the day one journaling app before, but
Speaker 2: it's just something to help you kind of start to
Speaker 2: think about what's going on, what you care about, how
Speaker 2: you're orienting in the world day to day.
Speaker 1: That sounds really cool, So moon lists dot com. I'm
Speaker 1: putting it into my search engine right now.
Speaker 2: That's it for Lab forty two.
Speaker 3: What did you think?
Speaker 2: Call us at two zero two five six seven seven
Speaker 2: zero two eight and let us know.
Speaker 1: We'd also love to hear from you for an upcoming
Speaker 1: series we're working on for the New year. We want
Speaker 1: to know about your New Year's resolutions for twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1: Are you making a list or did you skip the
Speaker 1: resolutions altogether? What are you focusing on. We want to
Speaker 1: hear from you. Call us at two zero two five
Speaker 1: six seven seven zero two eight and leave a message.
Speaker 2: And don't forget. There's so much more for you to
Speaker 2: dig into on our website. There'll be a cheat sheet
Speaker 2: for today's lab, additional links and resources in this show notes,
Speaker 2: Plus you can sign up for our newsletter check it
Speaker 2: out at Dope Labs podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to today's guest expert, doctor Christine Daniels.
Speaker 2: You can find her on Twitter and Instagram at nah
Speaker 2: Underscore m I n O.
Speaker 1: And you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at
Speaker 1: Dope Labs Podcast.
Speaker 2: TT's on Twitter at dr Underscore t SHO.
Speaker 1: And you can find Zakia at z said So. Dope
Speaker 1: Labs is a Spotify original production from Mega Own Media Group.
Speaker 2: Our producers are Jenny Rattleitmast and Lydia Smith of Wave
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Speaker 1: Editing in sound design by Rob Smerciak, mix by Hannes Brown.
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Speaker 2: One take Jake this time