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Speaker 1: December first was World Aid's Day, and December the entire

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Speaker 1: month is HIV Awareness Month.

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Speaker 2: And this December is particularly important because it's the fortieth

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Speaker 2: anniversary of the first five cases of HIV.

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Speaker 1: Wow, forty years feels like not a long time, but

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Speaker 1: so much has happened in those forty years.

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Speaker 2: It's definitely not a long scientific time, you know, And

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Speaker 2: you're right, so much has happened. Even thinking about what

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Speaker 2: it meant to have HIV in the eighties and what

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Speaker 2: it meant for your life compared to what it means

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Speaker 2: now thanks to advances in medicine and vaxine development, all

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Speaker 2: kinds of things that are coming along for the treatment

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Speaker 2: of HIV and AIDS.

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Speaker 1: Right, and our understanding I think of the virus has changed, yes,

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Speaker 1: and the way that we interact with people who have

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Speaker 1: HIV has changed, thankfully.

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Speaker 2: You're right. I think there's so much to unpack even

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Speaker 2: though it's a short scientific time. There have been incredible developments, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: and I can't wait for us to learn all about it.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science,

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Speaker 1: pop culture, and a healthy dose of friendship.

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Speaker 2: This week, we're talking all about HIV Now, HIV has

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Speaker 2: been around for a while, and there's been all kinds

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Speaker 2: of rumors like, oh, they have a cure and the

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Speaker 2: government just doesn't want us to have it. But scientists

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Speaker 2: have been working on an HIV vaccine for a pretty

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Speaker 2: long time. Yeah, there's a lot swirling around, But what's

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Speaker 2: most important is what the science is telling us, and

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Speaker 2: that's what we're going to get into today. I just

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Speaker 2: saw this story in the Washington Post about an Argentinian

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Speaker 2: woman who just became the second person on record whose

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Speaker 2: body might have completely eliminated the HIV virus on its own.

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Speaker 2: And when something like this happens, it's a huge deal

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Speaker 2: for scientists who can study what happened in the patient's

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Speaker 2: body and potentially use those findings to develop a cure.

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Speaker 2: Let's get into the recitation.

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Speaker 1: So what do we know.

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Speaker 2: Well, we know HIV stands for the human immuno deficiency

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Speaker 2: virus and it's been around for a long time. It's

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Speaker 2: been about forty years since the first case of HIV

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Speaker 2: was diagnosed.

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Speaker 1: We also know that HIV is the virus that causes AIDS,

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Speaker 1: so that's similar to how SARS CoV two is the

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Speaker 1: virus that can lead to COVID nineteen and HIV affects

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Speaker 1: a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: So about thirty seven million people worldwide have HIV, and

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Speaker 2: about one point two million of those are Americans.

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Speaker 1: And we know that HIV is a virus that attacks

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Speaker 1: the body's immune system and if it goes untreated, it

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Speaker 1: can lead to AIDS. So currently there's no cure for HIV,

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Speaker 1: but there are ways to control it through treatment that

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Speaker 1: allow those living with HIV to have long, healthy lives.

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Speaker 1: So what do we want to know? I think I

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Speaker 1: want to know how is the vaccine development for HIV

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Speaker 1: different from other types of vaccine development. We've talked about

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Speaker 1: vaccine development in previous labs, and so I'm curious if

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Speaker 1: it's the same, it's different, and if it's different, how

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Speaker 1: is it different?

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Speaker 2: And I think before we can even get to vaccine development,

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Speaker 2: I need to know some basic biology about HIV. What's

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Speaker 2: it looking like, how's it working?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 2: I think we have to kind of understand those things

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Speaker 2: before we know how we're going to stop it in

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Speaker 2: its tracks. I also want to know the timeline to

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Speaker 2: getting here. We didn't just start trying to make a

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Speaker 2: vaccine first. There were medicines made available that now feel

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Speaker 2: like super medicines compared to what may have seemed possible

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Speaker 2: in the eighties. So there are things that can make

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Speaker 2: HIV undetectable and thus non transmissible. And why is this

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Speaker 2: virus so different from other viruses that it's taken so

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Speaker 2: long to develop a vaccine? COVID got us one in

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Speaker 2: the vaccine in two years every time, yet hyper speed.

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Speaker 2: But this is a very good question. Let's jump into

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Speaker 2: the dissection. Our guest for the next two laps is

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Speaker 2: doctor Christine Daniels.

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Speaker 4: My name is Christine Daniels, and I recently finished my

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Speaker 4: post doc at Duke University's Human Vaccine Institute. Christine's work

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Speaker 4: focuses on developing and testing novel or new vaccine candidates.

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Speaker 1: Christine is another one of me and Zakia's actual friends

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Speaker 1: in real life. We always tell you we know some

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Speaker 1: very smart people. We all went to Douke at the

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Speaker 1: same time, and so you might hear us call her Christine,

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Speaker 1: but it is definitely doctor Daniels. Okay, so first things first,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about the HIV virus and to understand what

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Speaker 1: it is and how it works. We ask doctor Daniels

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Speaker 1: to explain it to us in the context of sarskov two,

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Speaker 1: the virus that causes COVID nineteen.

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Speaker 4: So broadly speaking, HIV and sarskobe two are very similar.

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Speaker 2: Let's start with their structure. HIV and sars kov two

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Speaker 2: have a pretty similar structure.

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Speaker 3: They're both envelope viruses.

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Speaker 1: This means that the virus is surrounded by an outer shell.

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Speaker 3: They're both expressed.

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Speaker 4: Their glycoproteins, or their spike proteins per se on their surface.

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Speaker 2: So that envelope or outer shell of the virus is

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Speaker 2: covered in these little spikes or proteins, and those proteins

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Speaker 2: have little sugars that's the glyco attached to them, and

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Speaker 2: those proteins allow the virus to bind or dock onto

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Speaker 2: host cells and that leads to infection.

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Speaker 1: And HIV and sarscov two are also similar in terms

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Speaker 1: of their genetic material.

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Speaker 3: They're both RNA viruses.

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Speaker 2: This means that they have single stranded RNA or ribonucleic

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Speaker 2: acid as their genetic material instead of double stranded DNA

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Speaker 2: like human cells have.

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Speaker 1: So in each HIV particle, you've got RNA inside surrounded

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Speaker 1: by the envelope with a bunch of little spikes all over.

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Speaker 1: Called glycoproteins, and so when HIV enters the bloodstream and

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Speaker 1: makes contact with the sell those little spikes are attaching

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Speaker 1: to the surface and they begin to fuse with the

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Speaker 1: host cell. This allows the center of the HIV particle,

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Speaker 1: that RNA, to go right into the whole sale and

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Speaker 1: to get converted back into DNA. So now you've got

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Speaker 1: viral DNA in your wholesale. So from there, the wholesale

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Speaker 1: is hijacked by HIV and begins to make more HIV

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Speaker 1: particles inside the body. But our body has an amazing

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Speaker 1: natural defense when it comes to fighting off viruses, the

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Speaker 1: immune system, and when our immune system senses that there

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Speaker 1: is an intruder, it can unleash a swarm of targeted

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Speaker 1: and general antibodies that will attack the virus, neutralizing it.

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Speaker 2: So remember those spikes we talked about covering the outside

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Speaker 2: of the virus. Those glycoproteins are what's specifically targeted by antibodies.

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Speaker 2: So stars CoV two and HIV viruses are structurally so similar.

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Speaker 2: In fact, the decades that have gone into developing the

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Speaker 2: HIV vaccine made it possible to develop the COVID vaccine

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Speaker 2: so quickly.

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Speaker 4: Because they're so structurally similar, we're able to leverage the

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Speaker 4: structure based a vaccine platform to design a vaccine for

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Speaker 4: COVID nineteen.

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Speaker 2: So understanding what the virus looks like structurally, what happens

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Speaker 2: when it gets into your body? How are vaccines disrupting

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Speaker 2: this process? How do they work? Doctor Daniels gave us

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Speaker 2: a great analogy. She thinks of a vaccine like a mugshot.

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Speaker 2: The vaccine is going to tell your body, Hey, this

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Speaker 2: is who you're looking for. This particle looks like this,

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Speaker 2: It has this certain protein on it. When you see it,

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Speaker 2: you know what to do. All systems go.

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Speaker 1: Now that we know generally how the HIV particle is

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Speaker 1: structured and how vaccines work in general, how would an

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Speaker 1: effective HIV vaccine work.

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Speaker 4: My lab specialized in protein design and expression, so we

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Speaker 4: use what we know about how the natural virus is

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Speaker 4: structured in its modes of infections in order to design

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Speaker 4: synthetic versions of it that mimic the virus but aren't infectious.

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Speaker 4: And using what we know, we're able to modify these

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Speaker 4: synthetic versions of the virus to help increase the body's

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Speaker 4: chances of recognizing them. Basically, instead of trying to redesign

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Speaker 4: a fake version of the entire virus. You just take

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Speaker 4: the piece of the virus that your body sees and

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Speaker 4: develops an immune response against, and that piece of the

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Speaker 4: HIV virus that your body sees, that's those spike proteins

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Speaker 4: we talked about that are spread out all over the

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Speaker 4: envelope of the virus, the glycoproteins. So you have this

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Speaker 4: big virus and you have these proteins spiking all over

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Speaker 4: the surface. We just take one of those spike proteins

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Speaker 4: and we just want to show that to the body

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Speaker 4: so the body focuses on the right region. The problem is, though,

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Speaker 4: that sometimes just one little piece isn't enough for the

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Speaker 4: body to generate a strong immune response. And so what

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Speaker 4: you can do is you can attach that piece, so

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Speaker 4: that spike that envelope protein onto a nanoparticle and you

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Speaker 4: can display multiple copies, so it's kind of like a

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Speaker 4: mini virus. And also the NATO particle itself is composed

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Speaker 4: of materials that will also activate your immune response. So

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Speaker 4: you get a robust immune response because you're showing multiple

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Speaker 4: copies of the right target. And then you have something

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Speaker 4: else that's stimulating supporting cells to help enhance that immune response.

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Speaker 1: All of this is blowing my mind. So doctor Daniels

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Speaker 1: works on creating a copy of the envelope of an

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Speaker 1: HIV particle covered in those glycoprotein spikes that your body

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Speaker 1: will recognize and develop a defense against. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: sorry's CoV two vaccines. You know, Maderna, Pfizer, and Johnson

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Speaker 1: and Johnson. They may have different strategies, but they all

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Speaker 1: are working towards the same goal to help your body

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Speaker 1: create a strong immune response against the coronavirus spike protein

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Speaker 1: that surrounds the virus.

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Speaker 2: And antibodies are one part of that immune response. Antibodies

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Speaker 2: are tiny proteins that help your body recognize and clear

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Speaker 2: foreign toxins, bacteria, and viral particles.

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Speaker 1: So they're like the bouncers outside the club.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's perfect, And Christine mentions neutralizing antibodies And if

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Speaker 2: you play on that bouncer metaphor, neutralizing antibodies are binding

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Speaker 2: to the outside of a viral particle, so that those

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Speaker 2: spike proteins can't bind to any whost sales. So it's

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Speaker 2: like if the bouncers make a circle around you, right,

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Speaker 2: don't have contact, You're not what I see like when

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Speaker 2: they pick you up, when they hold the arms and

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Speaker 2: the legs and carry you out the club. That's what

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Speaker 2: neutralizing antibodies are doing.

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Speaker 1: I've seen that happen to some people. It's pretty embarrassing.

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Speaker 1: They say, your evening is over, it's time to retire

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Speaker 1: to the boudoir.

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Speaker 2: This is really amazing work. Tt It feels like something

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Speaker 2: we would do if we had a lab together. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: biology with nanoparticles.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we'd be all over it.

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Speaker 2: Man, this must be really challenging work though.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I don't want to pretend like I know how

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Speaker 1: to do everything with nanoparticles same, but it sounds so cool.

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Speaker 1: I would love this.

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Speaker 2: All right, we're going to take a break, but when

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Speaker 2: we get back, we're going to talk to doctor Daniels

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Speaker 2: about the progress we've made so far towards an effective

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Speaker 2: HIV vaccine and how far we have to go.

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Speaker 1: We're back and right before we want to break, we

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Speaker 1: talked about non neutralizing antibodies, neutralizing antibodies and everything in between.

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Speaker 1: But if you want to know more about that, make

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Speaker 1: sure that you tune into our episodes in the New Year,

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Speaker 1: where we're talking all about the immune system. And before

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Speaker 1: we get back to talking about the HIV vaccine Zakia.

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Speaker 1: What's on tap next week.

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Speaker 2: Next week, we're continuing our conversation with doctor Daniels around

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Speaker 2: the development of an effective HIV vaccine, But we're gonna

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Speaker 2: shift the lens just a little bit from the science

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Speaker 2: to the people, because we know science doesn't happen in

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Speaker 2: a vacuum. So we'll be talking through the social context

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Speaker 2: around HIV over the past forty years and the people

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Speaker 2: who are affected most.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's get back to the show.

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Speaker 2: So here's what I want to know. We understand the similarities,

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Speaker 2: and we understand that work on the HIV vaccine could

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Speaker 2: have provided some scaffolding for process and distribution and other

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Speaker 2: developments with the COVID nineteen vaccine. But the COVID nineteen

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Speaker 2: vaccine got up and running pretty quickly, and we know,

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Speaker 2: you know a lot of people we're working on it.

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Speaker 2: A lot of.

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Speaker 1: Resources were poured into it.

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Speaker 2: What's been taking the HIV vaccine, which has been a

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Speaker 2: development for many decades, what's been taking it so long?

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Speaker 2: So COVID was developed really quickly because it's an easier

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Speaker 2: pathogen to design a vaccine against.

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Speaker 1: So even though HIV and SARS CoV two are structurally

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Speaker 1: similar and are both RNA viruses that use RNA as

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Speaker 1: their primary genetic material. A major difference is that SARS

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Speaker 1: CoV two doesn't mutate as frequently as HIV.

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Speaker 4: HIV mutates incredibly quickly. It can incur about ten mutations

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Speaker 4: per replication cycle, and the replication cycle is less than

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Speaker 4: twenty four hours. Scientists have estimate that one mutation of

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Speaker 4: SARS CoV two is established every eleven days or so.

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Speaker 4: So now we're looking at HIV having a mutation rate

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Speaker 4: this four times that of sars CoV two. So developing

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Speaker 4: a vaccine is able to accommodate all of that variation,

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Speaker 4: it's just really hard to do. So the way that

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Speaker 4: we try to do that is by designing vaccines that

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Speaker 4: are based on the conserved or of the HIV virus,

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Speaker 4: and so even if the virus mutates, those are regions

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Speaker 4: that don't mutate as frequently, and so if you get

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Speaker 4: a response against those sites, then you can likely be

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Speaker 4: protected against a wide range of viruses. So that's the approach,

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Speaker 4: and that theoretically you know that should work.

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Speaker 1: The other challenge for developing an HIV vaccine is the

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Speaker 1: length of time of infection. The infection window for sarskov

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Speaker 1: two is much shorter than HIV, and like we said before,

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Speaker 1: once someone is infected, that person has HIV for life

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Speaker 1: with very few exceptions.

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Speaker 4: So an HIV infected individual can live with HIV and

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Speaker 4: not experience any symptoms for a long time even though

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Speaker 4: they're infected with virus and it's infecting a body, and

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Speaker 4: not display symptom until they're very sick.

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Speaker 2: That also means there's a much longer window for HIV

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Speaker 2: to replicate inside your body, so.

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Speaker 4: It can mutate, but it's less probable just based on

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Speaker 4: that time window and the amount of times that would

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Speaker 4: have to replicate in a person within that time window.

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Speaker 1: And lastly, HIV is particularly elusive because it's able to

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Speaker 1: essentially hide itself from the immune system until it's too late.

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Speaker 1: HIV is covered with these sugars called glycans. The glycans

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Speaker 1: can attach to the envelope, that hard candy shell of

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Speaker 1: the virus and effectively hide the spike proteins from any

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Speaker 1: suspecting antibodies. So that's the challenge.

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Speaker 4: How do you generate a response that is able to

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Speaker 4: learn to bind or obade those black cans to target

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Speaker 4: the site.

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Speaker 2: That's really tricky because cells in our body naturally have

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Speaker 2: glycans all over them, So your immune system isn't going

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Speaker 2: to kick in the gear when it sees glycans because

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Speaker 2: that would mean you're essentially attacking yourself.

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Speaker 4: So in order to generate an effective HIV vaccine, we

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Speaker 4: need to figure out a way to generate antibodies that

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Speaker 4: are able to bind to the glycans and to the

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Speaker 4: protein at the same times. That way they won't be autoreactive.

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Speaker 4: And that's just hard to do.

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Speaker 2: I have a new appreciation for the challenges associated with

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Speaker 2: vaccine design against HIV.

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Speaker 1: Right, imagine trying to do a puzzle and every time

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Speaker 1: you go to put a piece down, all the pieces

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Speaker 1: change their shape.

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Speaker 2: Or they're saying you basic, we got to put down

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Speaker 2: two pieces at a time glancing in protein.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's no wonder this vaccine is so hard to develop.

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Speaker 2: But you know, vaccines aren't the only line of defense. PREP,

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Speaker 2: which is pre exposure prophylaxis, is medicine that people can

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Speaker 2: take to prevent getting HIV. So when you take PREP

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Speaker 2: as prescribed, it will reduce your risk of contracting HIV

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Speaker 2: from sex by about ninety nine percent. That's a huge drop.

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Speaker 1: Prep works by setting up fortified walls around the cell

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Speaker 1: that HIV is trying to infect, so those spike proteins

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Speaker 1: can't bind and infect and as a result of that,

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Speaker 1: they can't replicate inside the whole cell.

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Speaker 4: It's great because if people take it every day, then

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Speaker 4: it reduces their exposure to infection. However, they have to

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Speaker 4: take it every day, simply stated. You can think about

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Speaker 4: it like something such as birth control. Birth control, like

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Speaker 4: if you're taking a pill, it's usually like ninety to

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Speaker 4: ninety seven percent effective if you take it according to

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Speaker 4: the instructions. The instructions say that you have to take

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Speaker 4: the pill at the exact same time every day in

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Speaker 4: order for it to reach the efficacy For the people

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Speaker 4: that use this type of contraceptive, how many times have

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Speaker 4: you not taken it at two two pm every day?

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Speaker 3: How many times have you missed a day?

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Speaker 4: If you think about vitamins, do you take your vitamins

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Speaker 4: every day regularly?

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Speaker 3: Do you go to the gym every day regularly?

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Speaker 4: All of these behavioral things that we know will positively

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Speaker 4: impact our health and our longevity, our quality of life.

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Speaker 2: Remember T T shoes?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you didn't hear the shoe story, go back

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Speaker 1: and listen to the lab right before this one.

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Speaker 2: Where we talk about, you know, forgetfulness consistency. Taking a

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Speaker 2: pill every day for the rest of your life can

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Speaker 2: be costly, Like a lot of people might not have

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Speaker 2: access to the resources or insurance that allows them to

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Speaker 2: get that medication consistently.

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Speaker 4: So we need a vaccine because a vaccine will go

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Speaker 4: into healthy individuals before they have any potential for exposure

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Speaker 4: and prevent them from being infected. You take the full

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Speaker 4: regiment of the vaccine, then you're prevented from ever getting

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Speaker 4: the virus. And so even if there's a few instances

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Speaker 4: of breakthrough, majority of the population will be protected so

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Speaker 4: they will never have to do that everyday treatment or

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Speaker 4: every day preventative pill. I'm really interested in where we

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Speaker 4: are now, as we learn with COVID, getting a vaccine

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Speaker 4: approved and on the market can be a very involved,

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Speaker 4: expensive and time consuming process.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So once a novel or new vaccine candidate is

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Speaker 1: developed in a lab, it goes through a really rigorous

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Speaker 1: evaluation process where it's tested for safety and effectiveness in

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Speaker 1: humans before it's licensed for use. And this includes several

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Speaker 1: different phases of clinical trials. You probably remember hearing about

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Speaker 1: that with the COVID vaccines too, So we wanted to

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Speaker 1: know from doctor Daniels, where are we at in terms

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Speaker 1: of progress towards an effective HIV vaccine? Are we close?

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Speaker 4: Learning from my predecessors, I'm not going to stay a timeline.

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Speaker 4: What I will say is that we are having promising

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Speaker 4: results from studies that suggest that we may be on

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Speaker 4: the right path. I'm sure it's hard to predict because

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Speaker 4: historically the HIV vaccine has been pretty elusive.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty four, when HIV was first determined as

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Speaker 1: the cause of AIDS, the United States Health and Human

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Speaker 1: Services Secretary Margaret Heckler said that she believed a vaccine

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Speaker 1: for HIV would be ready for testing in two years.

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Speaker 2: There have been multiple trials in different phases through the years.

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Speaker 2: Most notably, vax Gen got FDA approval for the first

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Speaker 2: large scale Phase three clinical trial of an HIV vaccine

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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety eight. That vaccine was called vax zero

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Speaker 2: zero four, but it ultimately failed. For a deep dive

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Speaker 2: on that, check out the June second episode of Gimletz

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Speaker 2: podcast Not Pasted It, which really breaks it down.

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Speaker 1: But there was a clinical trial in two thousand and

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Speaker 1: nine with positive results.

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Speaker 4: So today the only effective trial has been by the

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Speaker 4: r one four to fourth trial that was done in

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Speaker 4: humans and it led to about thirty percent protection.

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Speaker 1: The RV one forty four trial was a partnership between

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Speaker 1: the United States and the Royal Thai governments. From two

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Speaker 1: thousand and three to two thousand and six, over sixteen

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Speaker 1: thousand people volunteered to receive a two vaccine combination, one

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Speaker 1: prime and one boost. When the results were released in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, with a thirty two percent efficacy

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Speaker 1: rate for preventing HIV, it became the only trial that

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Speaker 1: had any evidence of effectiveness and remains so to date.

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Speaker 1: You need a much higher efficacy rate to get approval.

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Speaker 1: But there were some really valuable learnings from this trial that.

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Speaker 4: Enabled us to learn a lot about what type of

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Speaker 4: responses are necessary. So that's kind of when we learned

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Speaker 4: a lot of information about the fact that neutralizing and

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Speaker 4: non neutralizing antibodies contribute to the response. And people have

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Speaker 4: followed up on the things that were learned from that

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Speaker 4: study in terms of like more recently, there are preliminary

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Speaker 4: results from a lab from scripts that show that they

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Speaker 4: were able to elicit precursor antibodies that may have that

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Speaker 4: breath and potency that we want to listit pre neutralizing

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Speaker 4: antibodies and ninety seven percent of their participants, and so

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Speaker 4: that's really promising. It's not a final result, you know,

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Speaker 4: it's not we elicited neutralizing antibodies, but something that has

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Speaker 4: the potential to become a neutralizing antibody. But if that happens,

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Speaker 4: then that would jump to the front of the line

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Speaker 4: as a candidate.

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Speaker 2: So this feels like we are trending in the right direction.

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Speaker 1: Yes, all of this information from doctor Daniels has made

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Speaker 1: me very excited about the possibilities.

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Speaker 2: But I think if we've learned anything over the past

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Speaker 2: two years, it is that we are not blank canvases

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Speaker 2: for scientific advances, and that it is going to take

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Speaker 2: a lot of understanding of social dynamics and just situating

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Speaker 2: this research in the context of what's happened before and

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Speaker 2: what's happening today.

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Speaker 1: Right. I think that is such a great point because

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Speaker 1: with all that we knew before the pandemic hit, a

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Speaker 1: lot of us thought that once the vaccine came out

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Speaker 1: that everyone would be willing to take it, and that

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Speaker 1: wasn't the case. So when I think about the HIV vaccine,

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Speaker 1: I wonder what pushback there might be from the general population.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and you know, even though it is a short history,

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Speaker 2: it is a very complex history, full of medical neglect

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Speaker 2: and mismanagement in the early stages by research institutions, and

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Speaker 2: so I think there is a lot to unpack and

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Speaker 2: even just day to day general rumors that we kind

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Speaker 2: of mentioned at the top of the episode, how will

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Speaker 2: that affect how people receive new advances as it relates

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Speaker 2: to HIV. So it's time for one thing. I want

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Speaker 2: to know what's been on your mind or what you're

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Speaker 2: loving this week.

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Speaker 1: TT For me around this time of year, I think

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Speaker 1: the fields are always the same, and so my one

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Speaker 1: thing this week is friendship. This time of year always

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Speaker 1: feels difficult for a lot of people for a lot

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Speaker 1: of different reasons. Some people are far away from the

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Speaker 1: people that they love, some people have lost people that

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Speaker 1: they love. And I think that friendship, family, family, whatever

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Speaker 1: you want to call it, your chosen family, I think

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Speaker 1: that it's always super important to tap into those networks.

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Speaker 1: And so that's what's been getting me through this week,

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Speaker 1: is my friends and my family. So that's my one thing.

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Speaker 1: I love it. What's your one thing? Ze?

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Speaker 2: My one thing this week is kind of along those

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Speaker 2: same lines. I've been doing a lot of reflection and

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Speaker 2: having all the feels, and I've been using these prompts

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Speaker 2: called moonless and l I S t s. They're on Instagram,

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Speaker 2: but you can also find them I think at moonliss

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Speaker 2: dot com, and they're just open ended prompts to help

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Speaker 2: you think and reflect on how you're feeling. I think

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Speaker 2: I talked about the day one journaling app before, but

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Speaker 2: it's just something to help you kind of start to

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Speaker 2: think about what's going on, what you care about, how

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Speaker 2: you're orienting in the world day to day.

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Speaker 1: That sounds really cool, So moon lists dot com. I'm

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Speaker 1: putting it into my search engine right now.

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Speaker 2: That's it for Lab forty two.

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Speaker 3: What did you think?

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Speaker 2: Call us at two zero two five six seven seven

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Speaker 2: zero two eight and let us know.

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Speaker 1: We'd also love to hear from you for an upcoming

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Speaker 1: series we're working on for the New year. We want

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Speaker 1: to know about your New Year's resolutions for twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Are you making a list or did you skip the

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Speaker 1: resolutions altogether? What are you focusing on. We want to

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Speaker 1: hear from you. Call us at two zero two five

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Speaker 1: six seven seven zero two eight and leave a message.

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Speaker 2: And don't forget. There's so much more for you to

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Speaker 2: dig into on our website. There'll be a cheat sheet

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Speaker 2: for today's lab, additional links and resources in this show notes,

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Speaker 2: Plus you can sign up for our newsletter check it

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Speaker 2: out at Dope Labs podcast dot com.

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Speaker 1: Special thanks to today's guest expert, doctor Christine Daniels.

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Speaker 2: You can find her on Twitter and Instagram at nah

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Speaker 2: Underscore m I n O.

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Speaker 1: And you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at

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Speaker 1: Dope Labs Podcast.

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Speaker 2: TT's on Twitter at dr Underscore t SHO.

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Speaker 1: And you can find Zakia at z said So. Dope

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Speaker 1: Labs is a Spotify original production from Mega Own Media Group.

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Speaker 2: Our producers are Jenny Rattleitmast and Lydia Smith of Wave

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Speaker 2: Runner Studios.

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Speaker 1: Editing in sound design by Rob Smerciak, mix by Hannes Brown.

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00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex

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Speaker 1: Sugier from Spotify.

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Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Gina Delvack, and creative producers are

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Speaker 2: Baron Farmer and Candace Manriquez Wrinn.

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Speaker 1: Special thanks to Shirley ramos yasmin of Fifi, camu Elolia,

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Speaker 1: Till krat Key, and Brian Marquis. Executive producers from Mega

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Speaker 1: Oh Media Group are US T T Show, Dia and

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Speaker 1: Zakiah Wattley. That's great.

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Speaker 2: One take Jake this time