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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show. Good morning,

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Counterpoints everybody. Emily, how you doing good?

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Speaker 4: I like how you used your hands. If you're listening

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Speaker 4: to this, you really missed out on some forceful gesticulation, right, I'm.

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Speaker 1: Trying to be excited. Yeah, well it's worth Everyboddy. So

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Speaker 1: bizarrely we have Matt Walsh later in the show.

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Speaker 4: Not so bizarre.

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Speaker 3: Who's the Daily Wire guy? Right?

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Speaker 1: He has a movie out following up on his question

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Speaker 1: about what is a woman?

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Speaker 3: What is a woman?

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Speaker 5: Now?

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Speaker 3: He's asking, am I a rasis?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 4: So we'll get the answer to that question.

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Speaker 1: I don't have the whole right wing ecosystem mapped out,

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Speaker 1: are you guys, friends, frenemies?

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Speaker 3: What's the situation as we go in here?

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Speaker 4: You know, I've interviewed him several time. I'm always fairly friendly.

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Speaker 4: You know, he's probably further to the right than I am,

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Speaker 4: all right way, so it'll be interesting. But he's very

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Speaker 4: I mean, this is no surprise, but he's very, very,

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Speaker 4: very popular with a big swath of people on the right,

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Speaker 4: especially younger people on the right. So it kind of

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Speaker 4: makes sense that the movie's doing pretty well. And apart

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Speaker 4: from that, you and I can get into how we

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Speaker 4: reacted to the movie. We'll save that. We'll save that

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Speaker 4: till the end of the show.

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Speaker 1: Sounds good, And we're also going to I also have

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Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve is meeting at two o'clock today, so

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Speaker 1: we're not going to have a segment on that. They're

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Speaker 1: going to announce whether or not they're going to be

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Speaker 1: cutting rates a quarter percent or half a percent. That

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Speaker 1: seems to be what people are guessing if they if

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Speaker 1: they go a half percent, it's going to be a

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Speaker 1: signal that they think the economy is a little bit

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Speaker 1: more sluggish than if they go with a quarter percent.

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Speaker 1: I'm putting my money on half. I'm going with a

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Speaker 1: half point rate cut. I haven't actually put real money

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Speaker 1: in that, but.

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Speaker 3: Not until they cut the road today at.

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Speaker 1: The near stock change and elsewhere, people just be gambling

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Speaker 1: about whether it's going to be a quarter or a

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Speaker 1: half the entire time.

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Speaker 3: Where's your money?

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Speaker 4: I don't know it's exactly and I think who knows

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Speaker 4: is a good is as good as a guest as

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Speaker 4: you can get.

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Speaker 1: Right now, we also have over at drop site, based

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Speaker 1: on a ream of new documents that we got out

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Speaker 1: of Pakistan, a wild story that Pakistan has agreed to

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Speaker 1: give China access to a naval base in the port

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Speaker 1: of Guadar, which is a key demand that China has

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Speaker 1: been making of Pakistan for many years now and is

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Speaker 1: sure to raise the hackles of the United States.

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Speaker 3: And it is.

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Speaker 1: Another foreign policy failure on the part of the US

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Speaker 1: because we have been we helped overthrow their last government,

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Speaker 1: installed what is supposed to be appliant US government that

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Speaker 1: has undermined democracy there, US friendly government there, and instead

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Speaker 1: it's winding up.

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Speaker 3: They're pushing them closer to China. Crazy how that works.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot to talk about. Actually, I have

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Speaker 4: a lot of questions for you based on that, and Ryan,

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Speaker 4: we should probably start with the biggest news of the day,

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Speaker 4: which is developments from the pager attack. That's probably the

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Speaker 4: best way to put it. Sounds bizarre if you haven't

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Speaker 4: been following the news, it sounds incomprehensible. But we can

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Speaker 4: start looking at if you're watching this, we can start

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Speaker 4: rolling footage. What are we looking at here, Ryan, So.

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Speaker 1: What you saw there is what is most likely a

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Speaker 1: Hesbela operative or employee who had a pager spontaneous, not spontaneously,

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Speaker 1: but just suddenly explode and it sent chaos all through Lebanon,

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Speaker 1: and there were reports of some explosions in Syria as well.

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Speaker 1: So basically what happened here is that in the spring,

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Speaker 1: Israel killed the chief of staff, Hesbela's chief of staff,

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Speaker 1: and Nostralla, the leader of Hesbela, sent out a message

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Speaker 1: saying cell phones. You guys are using your cell phones

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Speaker 1: in a sloppy opsec manner and they have become two

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Speaker 1: such of a risk.

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Speaker 3: Stop with the cell phones.

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Speaker 1: We need to go back to the basics, and we

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Speaker 1: need to use handwritten notes, we need to use couriers,

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Speaker 1: we need to use pagers. At around that time, and

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Speaker 1: this is according to a lot of the reporting that's

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Speaker 1: coming out of the region, and according to New York Times.

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Speaker 1: They used a Taiwanese company for this. Hesbila ordered more

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Speaker 1: than three thousand pagers to implement this new op SECT policy.

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Speaker 1: The biggest probably not because you know, maybe hospitals or

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Speaker 1: order well. I imagine that pages are ordered in bulk because

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Speaker 1: because individual consumers aren't really ordering pagers anymore. If you're

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Speaker 1: ordering them, it's because you have a system wide situation,

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Speaker 1: you're going to force people to use them. And so

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Speaker 1: somehow Israel got inside the supply chain from Taiwan into Lebanon,

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Speaker 1: and it appears that they were able to install some

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Speaker 1: small amount of explosive and they were able to also

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Speaker 1: then you know, tamper with the pagers such that they

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Speaker 1: could remotely trigger them. Initially, there was some thought that

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Speaker 1: they had sent in malware that had raised the temperature

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Speaker 1: of the lithium batteries until they exploded. But if you

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Speaker 1: watch that clip again, you'll you'll see just a sudden explosion.

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Speaker 1: And if it were just a battery heating up, you

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Speaker 1: would first you would see or first you would feel

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Speaker 1: it getting very hot. Sure, and some of them they

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Speaker 1: would just smoke, because that's how these crazy malfunctioning cell

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Speaker 1: phones blow up. They smoke for a while and then

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Speaker 1: they blow up. These boom just blew up. What the

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Speaker 1: reporting also says, and this is extra diabolical, is that

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Speaker 1: the message had the pagers pinging like making a noise,

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Speaker 1: you know, betpep, for a significant amount of time before

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Speaker 1: they exploded, so that the people thought that there was

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Speaker 1: a message from Hesbolo leadership. And so you're seeing an

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Speaker 1: enormous number of injuries, more than three thousand so far,

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Speaker 1: including I believe it was eleven dead at this point,

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Speaker 1: including two children, because if this pager were in my house,

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Speaker 1: for instance, and I was a HESBLO operative, my kids

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Speaker 1: might be playing with it.

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Speaker 4: Well, you can see actually if we can even roll

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Speaker 4: a one again, if you're looking at it, this is

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Speaker 4: they're surrounded at a market in this case, and you

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Speaker 4: can see two little girls right there. There's two little

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Speaker 4: girls on the other side of the fruit carts. So

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Speaker 4: there are a lot of details about exactly how this

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Speaker 4: was initiated and with what potential precautions. Who knows. Doesn't

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Speaker 4: look like obviously when you see two little girls standing

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Speaker 4: around across from the pager explodes so far, it seems preological.

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Speaker 4: You can understand how children were affected by this. Now

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Speaker 4: ran the Taiwanese company.

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Speaker 3: Oh but just the finishings.

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Speaker 1: That's why there's so many so many people went blind

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Speaker 1: and so many people lost their hands because it appears

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Speaker 1: that they were like looking at it like what's and

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Speaker 1: they're like, what's wrong with this?

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Speaker 3: And then it blows.

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Speaker 4: Now the Taiwanese company, to your point about the supply chain,

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Speaker 4: is saying, actually that they made a deal with the

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Speaker 4: Hungarian company that they would use the Hungarian company would

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Speaker 4: just use the Taiwanese companies branding. But they were in

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Speaker 4: charge of these pagers and they're saying these are not

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Speaker 4: our pagers. The Taiwanese company is saying these are not

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Speaker 4: our pagers. These are in fact from Hungary.

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Speaker 3: If you're the Taiwanese company, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well now we're the Hungarian company. But that does at

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Speaker 4: a wrinkle to how this might have been pulled off

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Speaker 4: to your point about infiltration of the supply chain, right, and.

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Speaker 1: So what we have also learned is that the scheme

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Speaker 1: was discovered this week or within the last week. A

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Speaker 1: Hesbala operative became suspicious about the pagers and was planning

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Speaker 1: to alert leadership about them. He was killed the reporting

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Speaker 1: doesn't That reporting suggests that he was killed, was asassinated

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Speaker 1: by Israel to stop him from telling the leadership. Then

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Speaker 1: a second person found out about it and was and

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Speaker 1: was planning also to tell leadership, and the plan would

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Speaker 1: have been foiled at that point. And so that's when

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Speaker 1: Israeli military leadership faced a dilemma. And it's a kind

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Speaker 1: of an interesting philosophical question here, because all of the

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Speaker 1: brutality that you see in war gets its just cause

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Speaker 1: by the fact that it's happening, you know, within war,

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Speaker 1: and it's supposed to be aimed at combatants what happens,

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Speaker 1: so so all right, so that's that's the that's the

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Speaker 1: construct for this. This now is is an unprecedented attack,

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Speaker 1: like we've never seen anything like this. Everybody now who

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Speaker 1: owns a phone or a pager is wondering like, could

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Speaker 1: this could this thing be remotely detonated against me for

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Speaker 1: some reason?

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Speaker 3: So Israel faced this question.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the the pager plan was part of an invasion plan,

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Speaker 1: like that's what the reporting says that the idea was,

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Speaker 1: as you're launching the offensive, you blow up the communication

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Speaker 1: system of Hesbola and at the same time Maime and

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Speaker 1: incapacitate a massive portion of the operatives that that's and

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Speaker 1: as a result, you then are more successful in your operation.

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Speaker 1: Israel had was not ready to launch an operation or

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Speaker 1: had decided for whatever reason, was not going to launch

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Speaker 1: an operation. So their choice then is we allow this

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Speaker 1: thing to be rolled up and discovered and we just

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Speaker 1: you know, wasted this capacity that we.

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Speaker 4: Had an enormous operation clearly no matter what I mean

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Speaker 4: to be able to have this tack right.

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Speaker 1: Or or the other choice is we pressed a button

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Speaker 1: and we maim, you know, three thousand plus people, you know,

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Speaker 1: kill You're definitely gonna kill some children and some innocent people,

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Speaker 1: like there's just no question about it, because they're going

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Speaker 1: to be near the pagers, but not for the operational

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Speaker 1: value related to your invasion and so but it obviously

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Speaker 1: would be a blow to Hesbela. But you're only in

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Speaker 1: a kind of soft war with Hesbela. You're not in

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Speaker 1: a hot, open war with Hesbela. And facing that choice

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Speaker 1: of stepping back, not launching, not not pressing the button

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Speaker 1: because it's not part of your operation, and maiming the

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Speaker 1: three thousand plus people, they decided we're just gonna We're

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Speaker 1: just gonna take the casualties, even if it's not part

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Speaker 1: of any even I it's not part of our strategy,

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Speaker 1: because because now it's just so, it's it.

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Speaker 3: Now, it's just well, we.

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Speaker 1: Could really hurt three thousand people or we could not,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to go with we could. And I

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Speaker 1: think what that shows is that there's really very very

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Speaker 1: little contemplation about the idea of just coexisting. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: because that's the other thing you could do, is you

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Speaker 1: could say, Okay, you know what, we're actually going to

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Speaker 1: sign the ceasefire deal, at which point Hesbelus stops launching

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Speaker 1: its rockets. Hesbela has Hesbella has said that they will

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Speaker 1: stop launching rockets if there's a cease fire deal reached.

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Speaker 1: When there was a week long cease fire in November

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Speaker 1: to exchange hostages, all the rockets from hesbel to stop,

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Speaker 1: all the rocks from the Hohoties, stopped, all the rockets

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Speaker 1: from the Syria and Irocky militias that are proxies of Iran.

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Speaker 1: They all stopped it, which shows that like coexistence and

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Speaker 1: peaces like it is possible, and it has to be possible.

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Speaker 1: We live on this planet together, and I think what

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Speaker 1: it showed, what this show is that they're like, no,

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Speaker 1: it's it's just not and maybe that's maybe their calculation

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Speaker 1: is correct. Co existence isn't possible, but then what a

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Speaker 1: bleak world? So okay, so your country then is just

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Speaker 1: going to exist on endless war against all of its

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Speaker 1: neighbors forever, Like that's really your plan.

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Speaker 3: It's paying for.

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Speaker 4: That definitely, and it's you know, I take the cynical

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Speaker 4: perspective on that. What do you make of So the

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Speaker 4: Iranian ambassad Elebanon, according to reports, had a pager and

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Speaker 4: was he lost one eye severely injured his other eye.

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Speaker 4: That's quite interesting that the Iranian I mean, a lot

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Speaker 4: of people would say that, of course the Iranian ambassador

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Speaker 4: Lebanon had one of these pagers. But the geopolitical ripple

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Speaker 4: effect of this, I mean, obviously, on the one hand,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's hard to have a more targeted approach

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Speaker 4: than literally the pager in someone's pocket. On the other hand,

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Speaker 4: we know that you know, it's going to explode in

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Speaker 4: a way that doesn't just affect that person, and if

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Speaker 4: it's not in their pocket and their kids are playing

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Speaker 4: with the obviously there are consequences that are beyond just

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Speaker 4: taking out single individuals, but also just geopolitically, you know,

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Speaker 4: they wipe out a huge amount of operatives. Why is

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Speaker 4: or what what happens when you have the Iranian ambassador

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Speaker 4: implicated in the amount of people who were taken out.

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Speaker 3: Well, two things there.

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Speaker 1: One is so it reminded me of Jeremy Skhal's interview

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Speaker 1: with the second in command of p I J and

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Speaker 1: he asked me, you know, he said, you know, people

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Speaker 1: accuse you of being supported by Iran, right, and the

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Speaker 1: guy said, yeah, of course, yeah, we're allies with Iran,

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Speaker 1: like so, yeah, they support our cause.

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Speaker 3: We appreciate that they support our cause.

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Speaker 4: Right, Why would we not accept their supports that's from our.

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Speaker 1: Perspective, that's great, and so yeah, Iran sports Hesbla. Iran's

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Speaker 1: gonna therefore coordinate with Hesbelah. It is interesting that Iran

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Speaker 1: hasn't even yet responded to the last provocation, right, the

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Speaker 1: attack the assassination of Hondia outside of Tehran, And now.

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Speaker 3: There's another one.

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Speaker 1: And it is getting to a point where a lot

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Speaker 1: of Palestinians and supporters of Palestine around the world are

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Speaker 1: saying that, you know, Iran actually is apable. They don't

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Speaker 1: think anymore of launching any kind of serious attack.

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Speaker 3: That maybe that that.

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Speaker 1: Very slow seventy two hour you know, drone attack that

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Speaker 1: they launched in response to whatever previous provocation, Maybe that's

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Speaker 1: what they've got.

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Speaker 3: Maybe that's it.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they weren't holding back, and now Hesbola, you know,

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Speaker 1: seems to be seriously weakened. Like I don't know how

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Speaker 1: many operatives they have, and you can always recruit more.

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Speaker 1: But it's also a blow to their communication system because

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Speaker 1: now what they do I mean, because they can go

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Speaker 1: back to pagers, but now they're going to be you know,

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Speaker 1: that'd be very careful about where they get their pagers from. Right,

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Speaker 1: if they go back to phones, then that helps Israel,

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Speaker 1: with its cyber technology, get closer to you know, more

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Speaker 1: assassinations across the board. They've been assassinating Hasibel of leaders

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Speaker 1: left and right. And there was a book a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago that we're helping turn into a podcast

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Speaker 1: drops I called Palestine Laboratory, which is about how Israel's

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Speaker 1: weapons industry is one of the world's most sophisticated because,

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Speaker 1: as Israel puts it, they get to use the occupied

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Speaker 1: territories as a laboratory for their weapons where they are

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Speaker 1: using experimental weapons on civilian populations and also on militant

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Speaker 1: groups and developing better weapons technologies as a result. And

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Speaker 1: this is an interesting example of that. Yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: really interesting We haven't seen the last of this.

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Speaker 4: Probably we can put the next element up on the screen,

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Speaker 4: just breaking down the various other aspects here. So Hasbla

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Speaker 4: is vowing to respond, obviously at this point, so Ran,

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Speaker 4: one of my questions for you is to the point

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Speaker 4: about Iran not having responded to the assassination of Hanea

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Speaker 4: outside Taran. Yet, what potentially could a response from Hasbela

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Speaker 4: look like? What might be what should people perhaps expect.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they supposedly have some significant kind of hypersonic

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Speaker 1: missile technology that they've been saving, like, so everybody's been

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Speaker 1: The thinking is that everybody's been holding back a little

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Speaker 1: bit mm hmmm, because a they don't want a regional

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Speaker 1: war and b they want to be they want to

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Speaker 1: have their stockpiles if they do have a regional war.

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Speaker 1: The Huthis sent a hypersonic missile into Tel Aviv several

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Speaker 1: days ago, which caused significant damage, and they claimed that

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Speaker 1: they're going to be sending dozens more in the coming

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Speaker 1: days and.

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Speaker 4: In actually we should put a three up. Four Israeli

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Speaker 4: soldiers were killed in an ambush by Hamas fighters just

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Speaker 4: yesterday as well, So.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, including I believe, and five others wounded three three

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Speaker 1: quite seriously as well as as well as another Israeli

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Speaker 1: officer seriously wounded in a separate clash in Rafice. So this,

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Speaker 1: this continues to go on. This uh, you know this

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Speaker 1: appears too. This is one of the more significant you know,

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Speaker 1: casual events for the IDF, you know, for four deaths

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Speaker 1: and three serious injuries at a time in a in

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Speaker 1: an ambush, which you know, shows that despite the incredible

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Speaker 1: military superiority in eleven months in having troops amidst a

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Speaker 1: population of one point five to two million people who

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Speaker 1: are hostile to them, long term is going to continue

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Speaker 1: to be extraordinarily difficult and lead to these types of casualties.

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Speaker 4: And that brings us to the final element here. This

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Speaker 4: is from drop site actually about the they'll just read

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Speaker 4: the headline, you guys, a health numbers show. Israel kills

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Speaker 4: two babies every day with no end in sight. Also,

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Speaker 4: if you're just listening to this, the header photo on

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Speaker 4: this Rhin is one.

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Speaker 3: Of those mass graves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so Shreve hebdel Caduce, correspondent for drop site.

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Speaker 3: You may have seen.

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Speaker 1: He obtained the Health Ministry's latest data over the weekend

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Speaker 1: and we converted it into a downloadable PDF form and

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Speaker 1: a CSV that people can check out. Because it has

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Speaker 1: of the forty thousand plus casualties, it has about thirty

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Speaker 1: four thousand of them that have names and IDs and

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Speaker 1: ages and birth dates and gender to them. There are

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Speaker 1: obviously going to be some mistakes. People can go sift

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Speaker 1: through it and might find duplicates here or there. There

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Speaker 1: have been mistakes discovered in previous Ministry of Health data

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Speaker 1: that they've put out, but they've been in the range

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Speaker 1: of just a handful of names been mistaken. They then

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Speaker 1: update and fixed that data. Kind of shocking that they're

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Speaker 1: still able to even produce a document of this length

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Speaker 1: and this this detail. That's a good point at this point, editions. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's also just a just devastating indictment of what's

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Speaker 1: been going on. It's the first I think fourteen pages

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Speaker 1: are children under one.

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Speaker 3: It just goes on and on and on and.

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Speaker 4: On, Like the conflict itself, which to the point that

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Speaker 4: this brings us to, which is there's really no end

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Speaker 4: in sight.

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Speaker 3: There seems to be nobody saying like, well, what if

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Speaker 3: we don't do this, what if we if we just

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Speaker 3: coexist here?

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Speaker 1: Well, seems I think there is there is a deal.

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Speaker 3: There is a deal to be had.

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Speaker 1: Like Iran Lebanon the malicious who thies like they all

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Speaker 1: have better things to do, like they all have domestic

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Speaker 1: problems to deal with mm hm, Israel has better things

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Speaker 1: to do, But there's just carry out a genocide inside

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Speaker 1: it's occupied territories.

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Speaker 4: I don't remember if this was one of in one

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Speaker 4: of Jeremy Scale's interviews, but even the persistent point that

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Speaker 4: people are making, you know, whether it's from Israel or

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Speaker 4: from Postinians or Hamas leaders, is what's the point of

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Speaker 4: a so called ceasefire when we know it's going to

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Speaker 4: happen a month later, two months later, six months later,

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Speaker 4: what's the point? And there's just no trust that the

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Speaker 4: other side is not going to egregiously violate it under

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Speaker 4: the auspices that something changed, even if those aren't legitimate.

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Speaker 4: And that's basically what's been going on for half a century.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and while while Hania was negotiating the ceasefire and

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Speaker 1: then was assassinated.

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Speaker 3: You know, he was then replaced as.

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Speaker 1: The top leader of AMAS with yasm War Now who

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Speaker 1: recently put out a statement saying that Okay, if there's

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Speaker 1: not going to be a ceasefire, we the Hohu thies

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Speaker 1: has Bela, the the Iraqi militias, We're going to continue

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Speaker 1: fighting and we're going to do it until we've driven

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Speaker 1: Israel completely out of the region, which you know that

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Speaker 1: the Hamas Charters supports a two state solution like that

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Speaker 1: they have they have.

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Speaker 3: Been pressured into agreeing to that situation.

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Speaker 1: Now under this conflict, they're saying, you know what, all right,

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Speaker 1: if there's no seasfire, we're just of it's going to

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Speaker 1: be a war of attrition.

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Speaker 3: That there are.

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Speaker 1: Their belief, or their stated belief at least, is that

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Speaker 1: because so many Israelis have other passports, they can because

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Speaker 1: they can move to the United States, they can move

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Speaker 1: to Europe, that as the economy collapses and endless war continues,

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Speaker 1: that those citizens are going to choose at that point

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Speaker 1: to move to those safer places. Whereas the Palestinians in

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Speaker 1: the West Bengaza don't really don'tly even have that option,

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Speaker 1: Like they can't leave. You can, if you raise enough

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Speaker 1: money on go fundme or have enough support somewhere potentially.

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Speaker 3: Get to Egypt and then you can fight to go

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Speaker 3: somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: But it's a massive uphill climb for that to happen.

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Speaker 1: Whereas from their perspective, all in Israeli has to do

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Speaker 1: is just go to the airport and fly to where

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Speaker 1: they have citizenship, which goes to their kind of fundamental

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Speaker 1: ideological belief that half the countries aren't aren't legitimately native

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Speaker 1: to the region anyway. And that's that's what you're seeing

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Speaker 1: in that, in that thought that they where they believe

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Speaker 1: they can win a war of attrition because they don't

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Speaker 1: have anywhere to go, right. I don't know if they're

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Speaker 1: right or not, but it's not pretty.

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Speaker 4: In the context of the story that we just had

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Speaker 4: up on the screen. Two babies every day.

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Speaker 3: Every Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Meanwhile, here in the United States, jd Vance media critic,

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Speaker 4: I should say. Jdvance put his media critic cat on

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Speaker 4: yesterday in Sparta at an event in Sparta, Michigan, where

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Speaker 4: the fallout from the cats and Dog meme cycle continues

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Speaker 4: on the campaign trail. Let's go ahead and roll this

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Speaker 4: clip of Vance criticizing media coverage of bomb threats that

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Speaker 4: have come into various places in Springfield, Ohio. Since this

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Speaker 4: really took off just in the last couple of weeks.

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Speaker 4: Here's what JD. Vance had to say.

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Speaker 6: A lot of people who pretend to be fair journalists,

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Speaker 6: you know what they've been saying for the last few days.

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Speaker 6: Springfield has been experiencing an unbelievable number, something like thirty

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Speaker 6: five forty bomb threats in Springfield and just the last

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Speaker 6: and just the last few days. And you know what,

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Speaker 6: the governor of Ohio came out yesterday and said every

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Speaker 6: single one of those bomb threats was a hoax and

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Speaker 6: all of those bomb threats came from foreign countries. So

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Speaker 6: the American media for three days has been lying and

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Speaker 6: saying that Donald Trump and I are inciting bomb threats,

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Speaker 6: when in reality, the American media has been wandering foreign disinformation.

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Speaker 6: It is disgusting, and every single one of them owes

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Speaker 6: the residents of Springfield and apology.

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Speaker 4: All right. Well, David from weighed in on this, and JD.

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Speaker 4: Vancen responded to David from. Jadvance has been very online

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Speaker 4: as of late to say the least, at least for

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Speaker 4: a non Trump presidential Canada, that is to say, someone

437
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 4: who is not Donald Trump himself. David Frum said, the

438
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 4: difference the upsetting things said by Trump and Vance are

439
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 4: not true. The upsetting things said about Trump and Vance

440
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 4: are true. Trump really did mount a violet coup against

441
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 4: the Constitution. He and his relatives really did take bribes

442
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 4: in office, including from foreign governments, et cetera, et cetera.

443
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 4: And Advance really did and by his own admission, intentionally

444
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 4: quote creates stories for political advantage that put residents of

445
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 4: his state at risk of physical harm. JD responded, I'd

446
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 4: say the most important difference is that people on your

447
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 4: team tried to kill Donald Trump twice. Ryan, What do

448
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 4: you make of that back and forth? And not just

449
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 4: JD versus David from but also JD versus the media

450
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 4: rit large.

451
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 3: What about either of those shooters?

452
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: I'd say, what is makes some part of quote unquote

453
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 1: David Frum's team? Also what is David who's David Frum's

454
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: team Ukraine?

455
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 4: So there might be something to that one. In the

456
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 4: very very like zoomed out Advance an advantage point that

457
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 4: this was this suspect has been obviously a Stager and

458
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 4: Crystal have been covering the Ukraine nut Ukraine nut right,

459
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 4: and a sort of the most intense version of a

460
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 4: hawk that you could find on Ukraine, on China. I

461
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 4: guess roughly aligned with David Frump probably on those two

462
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 4: policies in the abstry.

463
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: Maybe from needs to eat that one. The other guy,

464
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: I don't know, not so sure about the other guy.

465
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, we still have no idea, which is strange in

466
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 4: and of itself.

467
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 3: But it does seem kind of funny that jd.

468
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: Vance wants you know, accurate, you know, once you know,

469
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: precision and accuracy in the reporting on the bomb threats

470
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: and wants context as well. When his original story that

471
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: he was telling which led to these bomb threats led

472
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: to them, whether or not they were pranksters from the

473
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: little Russian troll Army or whatever he's suggesting, it is, okay,

474
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: that's funny by the bomb threats, right, Can we can

475
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: we acknowledge that that's funny that he's saying it's like

476
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: foreign interference?

477
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 3: Yes in the election? Yes, okay, that's funny. Yes, that

478
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 3: is funny.

479
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: They did, they were triggered by the stories that he

480
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 1: was telling. You know, he has said, look, I created

481
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: this story. Now what he'll say is what I mean

482
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 1: by creating it is I repeated the story some stories

483
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: that I had heard from constituents.

484
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 4: Right he was in context. That was one of the

485
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 4: annoying things about the David Frum tweet is that he

486
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 4: did that that legitimately if you watch that entire interview

487
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 4: in context, he said that so poorly. I mean, just

488
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 4: from a political standpoint, his com staffers were probably like

489
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 4: groaning when they heard that. But in the larger context,

490
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 4: he was saying, this is not a fabrication because my

491
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 4: constituents have been coming to me for months, blah blah blah.

492
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 4: So even if that, whether or not that's true, it's

493
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 4: not actually what he was saying.

494
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: Right, But the claims don't seem to be standing up

495
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: like they have found no missing cats and dogs. The

496
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 1: original store of that claim has apologized for circulating a

497
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,719
Speaker 1: bum rumor, and she should. It's sad that she has

498
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: to apologize nationally for.

499
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 4: She's posted something on Facebook.

500
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: Posted something on Facebook that she heard from her daughter,

501
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 1: who heard it from a cousin who heard it from

502
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: a friend. Like not a good source, like, not the

503
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: kind of thing you would base a national story around.

504
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: The whole twenty thousand number is also looks rather flimsy.

505
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 4: Some of the New York Times.

506
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 3: That's yeah, no.

507
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 4: But that's what I'm saying. That's why I think it's

508
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 4: that's why I think it's taken off.

509
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 3: It's in the New York Times, well, right, but.

510
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 4: The Times reported it, which is where a lot of

511
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 4: people source the number too.

512
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think the town manager, the mayor had

513
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: said it like a year ago or something like that.

514
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 3: They had My rule of.

515
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: Thumb is be very skeptical of a nice round numbers,

516
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: whether it comes to, you know, no contest bidding, like

517
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: fifty million dollars from McKenzie as Matt Stoller reported, fifty

518
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: million dollars. Okay, what are you gonna do with that?

519
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: Don't worry about it. It's just two million bucks. We'll do

520
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: something with it. Whenever somebody says another twenty thousand, the

521
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 1: numbers twenty thousand, it's like, I'm not so sure that's

522
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: actually based on anything other than let's let's put a

523
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: number out there that is large enough to convey or

524
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: the concern that we have for the growth in the

525
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: population turned out, you know, they're not here illegally.

526
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 3: That's that's complicated.

527
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 4: Well and interesting.

528
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, And so Jayvan's on the one hand, wants

529
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: wants his bigger truth to withstand the fact that a

530
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: lot of what's underneath it isn't actually true.

531
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 3: But when it comes to the.

532
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: Bomb threats, he wants, you know, all of the motivations

533
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: checked before people report that there was a bomb threat.

534
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: If you're walking out of your school because the Russians

535
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: called one in or because it was like a maga, dude,

536
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: you're walking out of the school.

537
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 3: Either way.

538
00:28:58,040 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 4: I will say a lot of the media coverage the

539
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 4: did implicitly or explicitly blame the bomb threats on jd

540
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 4: Vance And that can that's an argument that can absolutely

541
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 4: be made.

542
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 6: You know.

543
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 4: Jd Vance and Donald Trump were the ones.

544
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 3: That, however, wouldn't be doing it without right.

545
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 4: But here's where I think it gets especially interesting. And

546
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 4: I'm just thinking about this from perspective obviously of a conservative.

547
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 4: It's like Springfield, Ohio, the New York Timestead of follow

548
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 4: up here. Estimates range between twelve thousand and twenty thousand.

549
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 4: To your point, twelve thousand is a significantly different number

550
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 4: than twenty thousand, although still a very significant number for

551
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 4: the size of Springfield.

552
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 3: There's a serious population there patients.

553
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 4: Right yeah, according to city officials who have spoken with

554
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 4: The Times, and those estments are based on data from

555
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 4: the Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicles, Springfield's public schools, healthcare providers,

556
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 4: and social service agencies. So in the big picture, there's

557
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 4: obviously a story here of strain and social on a

558
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 4: social and economic level from this influx of migrants. And

559
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 4: that's a story that can be glass empty or goss

560
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 4: half full, depending on how you look at it. You

561
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 4: could say, these strains are what we've always done in

562
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 4: America as we accommodate new populations who come in and

563
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 4: do great jobs in the factories and build theirs way

564
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 4: into middle class lives. Or you could say these are

565
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 4: tax payers who are having trouble with overcrowding in schools

566
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 4: and housing costs going up, and they have all of these,

567
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 4: like perfectly well intentioned objections to what's happened over the

568
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 4: course of the Biden Harrison administration. So you can see

569
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 4: that from different perspectives no matter what, but one thing

570
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 4: is true, and that's Basically, the press didn't talk about

571
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 4: this story until JD. Vance and Donald Trump started talking

572
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 4: about it in outrageous these outrageous, outrageous contexts. And one

573
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 4: thing to the story that I would say is not

574
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 4: in defense of politicians lying hard like, of course not.

575
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 4: But on the other hand, the sort of legacy press

576
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 4: does not do itself any favors by ignoring some of

577
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 4: these bigger plot lines for ideological reasons, because that's what

578
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 4: like things boil over in the absence of attention on

579
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 4: what is legitimately a newsworthy story, and then we end

580
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 4: up it makes the Donald Trumps and Jadvances of the

581
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 4: world more and more likely to talk in like massively

582
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 4: exaggerated terms. That's not a defense of them talking in

583
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 4: massively exaggerated terms whatsoever. It is though, just to say

584
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 4: there's some responsibility on part of the media to dedicate

585
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 4: proportional coverage here and to cover immigration much better than

586
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 4: it does. It's just sort of for me, like crying

587
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 4: over spilt milk. When they start to whine about JD.

588
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 4: Vance and Donald Trump, it's like, well, you're part of

589
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 4: creating an atmosphere that makes this more and more likely,

590
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 4: and it's an unforced error, because your job is to

591
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 4: cover this stuff fairly.

592
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: But while it's true that they haven't covered Springfield, Ohio

593
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: because it's a town of roughly fifty thousand people or

594
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: whatever as a national story, I think they have covered

595
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: immigration in a pretty hawkish way.

596
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 4: I don't think they've done a very good job of

597
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 4: covering when.

598
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: The border like I I mean, Democrats talk about how

599
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: the border is a complete disaster, Republicans talking about how

600
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: the border is a complete disaster. The mainstream news media

601
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: covers the border as a complete disaster, and related to

602
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: that is the suggestion that there's like hordes.

603
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 3: Of people coming up.

604
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: I think from like an immigration hawks perspective of the

605
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: media is serving up all the hysteria that you could want. Like, Okay,

606
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: now they're talking about Springfield in particular, But have they

607
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: really been well ignoring the question of the border.

608
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 4: Well, the question of I think integration of this Like

609
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 4: that's what I think has been I don't think the

610
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 4: corporate press has been entirely ignoring the question of the border,

611
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 4: but the question of what happens once people get over

612
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 4: the border and then seek to integrate in sometimes mid size,

613
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 4: mid range communities Springfield Dayton area. That story is I think,

614
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 4: very rarely covered, and it's an interesting story actually from

615
00:32:58,720 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 4: the left and.

616
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: Over this one, the claim was that they're not integrating

617
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: into the community, right, and the evidence for that was

618
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: that they're stealing and eating like dogs and cats.

619
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 4: Well, no, I mean there are people talking at all

620
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 4: those time console meetings about housing costs going up, about

621
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 4: the problems with schools, about like I mean, those people

622
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 4: being forced out of housing situations. I mean those there

623
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 4: weren't just people repeating the dogs and cats stuff at

624
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 4: those meetings. It was everything else too. And that's why

625
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 4: I think it's unfortunate because even from the perspective of

626
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 4: the left, there's a lot that could be said about

627
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 4: what are these factory workers being taken advantage of? Are

628
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 4: they union? Are they like? What are these conditions fair

629
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 4: and acceptable for people?

630
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 5: Right?

631
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 3: And what would what would the city look like without them? Right?

632
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 4: No, Seriously, I think that's super interesting and it doesn't

633
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 4: have to be right wing. But I think like a

634
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 4: lot of journalists are just stuck in this rut we're criticizing,

635
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 4: and there are certain countries in Europe that have gotten

636
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 4: out of that reflex. But criticizing mass immigration, which has

637
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 4: clearly objectively happened, and I didn't say mass illegal immigration.

638
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 4: I think that's important because a lot of the Haitian migrants,

639
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 4: you look at their papers, and they're perfectly legal. They're

640
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 4: making asylum claims and waiting for them to be adjudicated

641
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 4: in the asylum courts, and they have work permits and

642
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,879
Speaker 4: all of that, and it's a perfectly legal form of

643
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 4: immigration because they're making asylum claims in mass so it's

644
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 4: not just like illegal immigration. It's going through legal pathways

645
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 4: that we've expanded. So there's just a super i think,

646
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 4: super legitimate and interesting questions that don't have to result

647
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 4: in necessarily like conservative arguments. But the media is just

648
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 4: in this reflexive rut of being disinterested in anything that

649
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 4: might be highly critical of mass migration. The New York

650
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 4: Times did do an excellent series on children who were

651
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 4: being exploited, that had been traffics over the border and

652
00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 4: we're missing DHS, just missing thousands of migrant children. That

653
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 4: was a great series. But there's so many different stories

654
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 4: like that and different sort of downstream effects that I

655
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 4: just rarely see covered.

656
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 3: And just to check out.

657
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: So I just googled the number of journalists in Ohio,

658
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,240
Speaker 1: and the first thing that comes up is from twenty

659
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: twelve to twenty nineteen, Ohio lost forty three percent of

660
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: its newspaper journalists. From twenty nineteen until today, you can

661
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: imagine that the number collapsed much further.

662
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 3: I imagine if you looked at whatever.

663
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: The newspaper situation is in Springfield, the news situation is

664
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: in Springfield ten fifteen years ago, and what it is

665
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: more broadly from the Ohio papers, the Dayton Paper and

666
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: also like the Toledo Blade and the others who cover

667
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: the state more broadly, you'll see probably a ninety percent

668
00:35:55,680 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: collapse in journalistic capacity totally. And when that happens, you

669
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: only have time to cover the weather, traffic, new businesses

670
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: that are opening, sport.

671
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 3: Local sort local sports, and a lot of times.

672
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: But like actual reporting on anything that takes effort, that

673
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: what they call that enterprise at those newspapers enterprise reporting

674
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: and takes enterprise to go and do it.

675
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 3: That is the thing that gets cut.

676
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 4: Right, and it often ends up coming from a bureau

677
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 4: in a city tens like dozens of miles away at least,

678
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 4: if not those bureaus.

679
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 3: Are shut right, So like those are the first ones

680
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 3: that get shut down.

681
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 4: You have you know, the Cleveland reporters or the Columbus

682
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 4: reporters reporting on Springfield Dayton as opposed to having a

683
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 4: robust local paper and Dayton. This was one of the

684
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 4: big things I think during the sort of school culture

685
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 4: wars during COVID, I think it did a monologue on this.

686
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 4: If we had more robust local news, that used to

687
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 4: be the pipeline where a lot of the stuff got

688
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 4: worked out before it ended up in the national media.

689
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 4: Because some of these conversations would be by the free price,

690
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 4: Like the free price would facilitate sharing relevant information to

691
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 4: the community, and the community would come together and sort

692
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 4: of figure out a solution. I think a lot of

693
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 4: these school board confrontations would have stayed local instead of

694
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 4: being blown up into divisit national news cycles. I could

695
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 4: not agree with that more so it's just.

696
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: And yeah, it looks like Springfield was a victim of

697
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: corporate consolidation from Cox Enterprises, which is this you know,

698
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: you know Cox. It's like this gigantic behemoth of that

699
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: gobbles up local news and then basically gets rid of

700
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: all the.

701
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 3: Local in it.

702
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: Centralizes it at the top, combines it with radio and

703
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,760
Speaker 1: other local newspapers and basically just gives the same news

704
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: with a slight tweak maybe one person in Springfield.

705
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 3: So that's this maze the Springfield Sun. It looks like.

706
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: In late twenty ten, Cox Enterprises merged all of its

707
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: local media holdings under the CMG Ohio brand and consolidated locations.

708
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: In addition, it's Prince Publications holds include a bunch of.

709
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 3: Different like radio and local TV.

710
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: So they're just consolidating at all and getting rid of

711
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: all the workers lovely and then yeah, you're not going.

712
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 3: To get You're not going to get.

713
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: You know, you get what you pay for, or you

714
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: get what you allow the oligarchs to control as this

715
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 1: democratic society.

716
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 4: So let's watch this Hillary Clinton clip, which is a

717
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 4: little bit of a pivot but gets into the broader

718
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 4: conversation about disinformation. So this was Hillary Clinton on Rachel

719
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 4: Maddow talking about what consequences should come to people who

720
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 4: are allegedly disseminating Russian propaganda.

721
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 7: I think it's important to indict the Russians, just as

722
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 7: Muller indicted a lot of Russians who were engaged in

723
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 7: direct election interference and boosting Trump back in twenty sixteen.

724
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 7: But I also think there are Americans who are engaged

725
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,439
Speaker 7: in this kind of proper aganda, and whether they should

726
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 7: be civilly or even in some cases criminally charged is

727
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 7: something that would be a better deterrence because the Russians

728
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,959
Speaker 7: are unlikely, except in a very few cases, to ever

729
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 7: stand trial in the United States. You know, they're not

730
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 7: going to be going to a country where they can

731
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 7: be extradited or even returning to the United States unless

732
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 7: they are very foolish. So I think we need to

733
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 7: uncover all of the connections and make it very clear

734
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 7: that you could vote however you want, but we are

735
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 7: not going to let adversaries, whether it is Russia, China, Iran,

736
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 7: or anybody else, basically try to influence Americans as to

737
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 7: how we should vote in picking our leaders.

738
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 4: You can vote however you want.

739
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 3: You just can't say whatever you want in a nice concession. Yes,

740
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 3: we appreciate that.

741
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's willing to compromise when they come to the table.

742
00:39:58,840 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 4: You can vote however you want.

743
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: Now you know that in her heart of hearts, she

744
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: thinks it should be a crime to a vote.

745
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:05,879
Speaker 4: For Donald, to vote for Donald Trump right, because you're

746
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 4: absolutely a Russian puppet and we can't stand for that.

747
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: And for her to go on television and float that

748
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: some Americans should perhaps be charged criminally for repeating what

749
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: she calls Russian talking points is amazing. It's utterly amazing.

750
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 4: Where is old leftist Rachel Maddow to jump in and say,

751
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 4: excuse me, ma'am former secretary of state, what exactly are

752
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 4: we talking about here?

753
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 1: I guess we don't look to former secretaries of the

754
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 1: state to uphold principles of democracy anywhere around the world,

755
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 1: so we might as well not look for it here

756
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: at home.

757
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 3: But good lord.

758
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 4: Glenn had a great point. He said, if Hillary's Glenn

759
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 4: Greenwell posted, if Hillary's insanely repressive measure were implemented, people

760
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 4: Spring Disinformation could be in prison. The first two people

761
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 4: to share a prison shell should be her and Maadow,

762
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 4: who dround the country and Steele Dossier, Alpha Bank Service

763
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,359
Speaker 4: and other dementa debunct lies, which by the way, could

764
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 4: easily have been Russian disinformation that was funneled intentionally to

765
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 4: Christopher Steele, As Steele would be the sort of useful

766
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 4: idiot he's out with a new book. Maybe we can

767
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 4: get him on.

768
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 3: All we can do is let a joy sort it out.

769
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 4: That's right, that's right. Disinformation very real. Punishment for disinformation

770
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 4: also increasingly very real. And these two things are not

771
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 4: necessarily or should not necessarily be related.

772
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 3: Well, well, amazing.

773
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 4: You have to have some tolerance for disinformation in a

774
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 4: free society, of course, but I guess we're losing that

775
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 4: muscle memory. Let's move on to Kamala Harris, who has

776
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 4: done six interviews since being named the presidential nominee after

777
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 4: President Joe Biden stepped down. Three of them have been

778
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 4: with friendly radio hosts. I think we all remember how

779
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 4: some of those radio interviews have been handled in the past,

780
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 4: but she did sit down yesterday for fairly long back

781
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 4: and forth. In addition to the Dana Bash interview, she

782
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 4: did one other interview, this one.

783
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 3: With the local Philadelphia TV reporter.

784
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 4: So this one was really the longest exchange I think

785
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 4: that she's had at least live since being named the

786
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 4: presidential nominee. And this was at the National Association of

787
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 4: Black Journalists. In conversation at an NABJ event. We all

788
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 4: remember how Donald Trump's and ABJ said, down went, Yeah,

789
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 4: it was perfect it was a perfect phone call. So

790
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 4: let's take a listen to this answer that Kamala Harris

791
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 4: gave on the economy yesterday.

792
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 5: We had been a lot of work to do to

793
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 5: clean up a mess. As of today, we have created

794
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 5: over sixteen million new jobs, over eight hundred thousand new

795
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 5: manufacturing jobs. We have the lowest Black unemployment rate in generations.

796
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 5: We have invested in small businesses and I'm to the

797
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 5: benefit of many people, but including black small businesses. Some

798
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 5: of the highest rate of creation of new Black small

799
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 5: businesses in years. We have done the world of capping

800
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,720
Speaker 5: the cost of prescription medication for our seniors for issues

801
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 5: like insulin.

802
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 4: And again I'm.

803
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 5: Speaking to the black journalists who care about all people,

804
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 5: but in particular I'll talk about the impact.

805
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 4: On black people.

806
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 5: Clear we know black folks are sixty times more likely

807
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 5: sixty percent excuse me, more likely to be diagnosed with diabetes.

808
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 5: And we have now finally capped the cost of insulin

809
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,959
Speaker 5: for our seniors at thirty five dollars a month, cap

810
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 5: the cost of prescription medication for our seniors at two thousand.

811
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:29,720
Speaker 4: Dollars a year.

812
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 5: Because we, unlike the former president who promised to do it.

813
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 5: We finally have allowed Medicare to negotiate drug prices against

814
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 5: the big pharmaceutical companies. And these are just some of

815
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 5: the accomplishments. Is the price of grocery still too high?

816
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 4: Yes?

817
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 5: Do we have more work to do?

818
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 4: Yes? All right, do we have more work to do?

819
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 4: That's one way to kind of handle questions about how

820
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 4: you're part of an administration in which people still see

821
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 4: grocery prices as being too high compared to the administration

822
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 4: that came immediately before it. Now. Kamala Harris also commented

823
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 4: on was asked actually about what she makes of trends

824
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 4: that are showing up in polls among black men, in

825
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 4: particular being sort of pulled towards Donald Trump, and some

826
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 4: numbers that just Republicans aren't used to seeing Democrats aren't

827
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 4: used to seeing. It's hardly going to be a landslide

828
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 4: for Donald Trump among black men, but the patterns are

829
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 4: interesting enough to warrant further speculation, of course. So here's

830
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 4: how Kamala Harris responded to.

831
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 8: That you have engaged black men and sinswered them and

832
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 8: your economic opportunity tour, But polling shows that some black men,

833
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 8: particularly a young black men are considering voting for Donald Trump,

834
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 8: and they see him as better for the economy. What

835
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 8: is your message to young black male voters who feel

836
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 8: left out of this economy, and how can your economic

837
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 8: policies materially change your lives.

838
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 5: So I appreciate the spirit of the question, but I'll

839
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 5: tell you I've often been asked this question in a

840
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 5: way that I've had to respond by saying, then, I

841
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:08,760
Speaker 5: think it's very important to not operate from the assumption

842
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 5: that black men are in anybody's pocket. Black men are

843
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 5: like any other voting group. You got to earn their vote.

844
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 5: So I'm working to earn the vote, not assuming I'm

845
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 5: going to have it because I am black, but because

846
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 5: the policies and the perspectives I have understands what we

847
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 5: must do to recognize the needs of all communities, and

848
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 5: I intend to be a president.

849
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 4: For all people. So I have to actually thought that

850
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 4: was a pretty good answer, partially because of what Nina

851
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 4: Turner said. Nina Turner during the DNC told the Free

852
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,919
Speaker 4: Press that the Democratic Party kind of emasculates black men.

853
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 4: From Nina's perspective, at least, I think there's probably some

854
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 4: truth to that, and Kamala harrisoning I'm not taking anything

855
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 4: for granted was probably the best way that she could

856
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 4: respond to that. I don't know, what do you think, Ran.

857
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right.

858
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: And on the previous clip, I would love to have

859
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: a politics where people are constantly competing for who can

860
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 1: take on big Pharma.

861
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 3: More.

862
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: Yes, like Biden pushing through with the Inflation Reduction Act

863
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: Medicare negotiation after the Democrats had ran on it in

864
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 1: two thousand and six, and then when they took over

865
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 1: the White House in two thousand and nine and had

866
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 1: both Houses of Congress, they traded it to pharma in

867
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: exchange for pharm and support for Obamacare, and then they

868
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 1: and then they're like, it's just a one year deal

869
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: after this and we're back at it. And then they

870
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: claimed they were going to do it, you know, for

871
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: the next ten years. But then they finally did it,

872
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: and it you know, it took them fifteen years. But

873
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: it's you know, a real credit to the advocates who

874
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: were pushing for it, to you know, seniors who have

875
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: been organizing around that issue because you're up against one

876
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: of the most powerful lobbies in Washington. Like, I think

877
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: they have something like five or six lobby for every

878
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: single member of Congress. The amount of money that they

879
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 1: have to spend because of federal policy is ungodly, and.

880
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 3: They did beat them.

881
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,399
Speaker 1: And the Medicare negotiations, the insulant cap is a life,

882
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: literal life saver, and the negotiations estimated save something like

883
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:23,399
Speaker 1: seven eight billion dollars for both Medicaren and seniors and

884
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 1: also pushes down prices for everybody.

885
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 3: But it also is a huge kind of toe in

886
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 3: the door.

887
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: So to have them I would love to see then

888
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 1: Trump come back and be like, no, I'm actually going

889
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 1: to be tougher on big farm.

890
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 3: And when I come in, he never does.

891
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 4: That's as you were outlining that I find it. You know,

892
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 4: we've talked about this before, but it is so interesting

893
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,280
Speaker 4: that and Matt Sellier has actually gone back and listened

894
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 4: to Trump's speeches from twenty sixteen and compared them to Trump'

895
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 4: speeches from twenty twenty four. He was constantly railing not

896
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 4: just against like elites, but against other corporate elites. And

897
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 4: I say other because he would say I know the

898
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 4: system and like these guys are and they're fleecing you.

899
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 4: And he's never really gone in on that with big

900
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 4: farm at all. Despite the mounting opposition to pharma ag

901
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 4: health industry from conservatives, Tucker has platform these conversations on

902
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 4: his show that have really resonated with a lot of

903
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,280
Speaker 4: people on the right. You just don't hear from Trump

904
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 4: at all, despite the fact that it is really a

905
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 4: massive opening. And if there was anything that could shake

906
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 4: the Republican Party out of its absurd blind spot and

907
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 4: inability to come to the table on healthcare, which is

908
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 4: repeatedly in polls shows up as one of the most

909
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 4: important issues for voters, it would have been Donald Trump

910
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 4: coming in and just taking a bulldozer to corporate allegiances

911
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 4: in the Republican Party. And it hasn't happened.

912
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they already have old people, so locked those

913
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: old people in. He did do an executive order that

914
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: had a voluntary price cap on insulin at thirty five

915
00:48:55,640 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: dollars for seniors, which did help some seniors. And I've

916
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 1: seen Trump try to take credit for what happened later

917
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,280
Speaker 1: in the Inflation Reduction Act. But you know, a voluntary

918
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 1: executive order that applies just to seniors is totally different

919
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:12,760
Speaker 1: than a law that applies for everybody.

920
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 3: Across the country.

921
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: Yes, but I like to see Trump like upset by

922
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:19,959
Speaker 1: the fact that he got outflanked on that, because then

923
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,439
Speaker 1: hopefully it shows Republicans like this is a winning political issue. Yeah,

924
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 1: clearly make people's lives better on a daily basis and

925
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: then brag about it like that would be a cool politics.

926
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, there's really interesting studies of happiness in indigenous

927
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 4: communities that have been basically isolated from technology, So people

928
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 4: living like they did thousands of years ago, and one

929
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 4: of the biggest sources, you know, they have pretty high

930
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,919
Speaker 4: levels of happiness. There are sources of stress or things

931
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 4: that contribute to unhappiness are community and health. So it's

932
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 4: kind of interesting, right that you can have all of

933
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 4: your needs met, you can feel content across the board,

934
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 4: but if health is a concern for you, it will

935
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 4: drag down your levels of happiness. It's one of the things,

936
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 4: in addition to community, that can really drag down a

937
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 4: person's level of happiness, and Republicans just have zero idea

938
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 4: what to do about it, in zero interest in talking

939
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 4: about it. So n let's pivot to what Kamala Harris

940
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 4: said when she was entertaining questions on Israel Palestine. This

941
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 4: was the she was asked about the ceasefire and ongoing negotiations.

942
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 4: Let's just roll the clip.

943
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 9: But matter of fact, President, just to follow up really quickly,

944
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 9: is there a specific policy change that you, as as

945
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 9: president of the United States, would say you would do

946
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 9: that would help this long Because you know, you've gotten

947
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 9: a lot of credit for emphasizing the humanity of Palestinians.

948
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,399
Speaker 9: But what I often hear from folks is that there's

949
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 9: no policy change that would that either you or the

950
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 9: President President Biden have gone and said they would do.

951
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 9: Is there a specific policy change as president that you

952
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,240
Speaker 9: would do in our helping of Israel?

953
00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 5: We need to get this deal done, and we need

954
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 5: to get it done immediately, and that is my position

955
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 5: and that is my policy.

956
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 4: We need to get this deal done.

957
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 9: But in the way that we send weapons, in the

958
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 9: way that we interact as their ally, are there specific

959
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 9: policy changes?

960
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 5: Well, Eugene, for example, one of the things that we

961
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 5: have done that I am entirely supportive of is the

962
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 5: pause that we've put on the two thousand pound moms.

963
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,359
Speaker 5: And so there is some leverage that we have had

964
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 5: and used, But ultimately, the thing that is going to

965
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 5: unlock everything else in that region is getting this deal done.

966
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 5: And I'm not going to disclose private conversations, but i

967
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 5: will tell you I've had direct conversations with the Prime Minister,

968
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 5: with the President of Israel, with Egyptian leaders, and with

969
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:53,320
Speaker 5: our allies, and I think we've made ourselves very clear

970
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 5: this deal needs to get done and the best interest

971
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 5: of everyone in the region, including getting those hostage, is

972
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 5: out who I mean, we saw the latest example of

973
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 5: what happened with the sixth most recently, one of whom

974
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:09,240
Speaker 5: was an American citizen.

975
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 9: But what do you say to those that say that's

976
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 9: not enough, that stopping the two thousand pound pounds the

977
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 9: one time wasn't enough, that this administration, your possible administration,

978
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:19,439
Speaker 9: has to do more.

979
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 5: Well, we are doing the work of putting the pressure

980
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 5: on all parties involved to get the deal done.

981
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 4: And that one kind of reminds me of Trump saying

982
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 4: that he has concepts of a plan. Yeah, what did

983
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 4: you make of Kamala Harris's response?

984
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: You make yourself either look like a liar or like

985
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: you're just terribly weak and incompetent.

986
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 4: A caricature of a politics, or I.

987
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 1: Mean as a as a States person like, because either

988
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 1: either you're lying and you completely support this war effort

989
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 1: and are sending the weapons so that your weapons can

990
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,879
Speaker 1: continue to be used, which is the most logical reason

991
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:03,919
Speaker 1: you would send weapons to someone, or you're just such

992
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: an incompetent moron that you that you run the most

993
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: powerful empire in the history of the world and you

994
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 1: can't figure out how to get a country of like

995
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: seven million, eight million people to do what you want

996
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 1: it to do, despite the fact.

997
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 3: That you fund and arm that country, right, Like, if you.

998
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 1: Can't figure out how to do that, how can you

999
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: do anything difficult in the in when it comes to

1000
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: world affairs. So it either makes you look like you

1001
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: are completely weak and just getting steamrolled by Israel, or

1002
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: that you're completely comfortable and complicit in what is being done.

1003
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: He the Eugene just kept pushing like, is there anything

1004
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: you would do differently than the Biden administration anything? And

1005
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 1: to his credit, you know, she tried to use the

1006
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: two thousand bomb two thousand pound bomb. Point he pointed

1007
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 1: out that that was one time and limited, so they're

1008
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: not even doing that anymore. They just dropped three of

1009
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 1: those a week ago and shredded dozens of children, those

1010
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 1: two those exact two thousand pound bombs that she's over

1011
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: here trying to claim and would have that claim would

1012
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 1: have hung out there as unchallenged if Eugene hadn't contested it.

1013
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: The support for Biden's policy is in the like twenties.

1014
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: She also is struggling to find ways to distance herself

1015
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: from Biden.

1016
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 4: Yes, from the Biden Harris administration.

1017
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:39,879
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1018
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, And here's here's a policy that's not working and

1019
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: is in the twenties, and you won't divorce yourself from it. Therefore,

1020
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 1: you're either complete more on or you actually think it

1021
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: is working and you like what's being done.

1022
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 3: Like there's really only those are the only two options.

1023
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's true. It's a failure by their

1024
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 4: own terms. It's either a failure by their own terms,

1025
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 4: or their own terms are.

1026
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 3: Accept stature actually fine the status.

1027
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly know what I mean. Again, Like we

1028
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 4: heard all DNC week about how close we were to

1029
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 4: a ceasefire, and I think they like having the ceasefire

1030
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 4: on the table politically because it makes them look like

1031
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 4: they're working for something better and I'm not. I'm just

1032
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 4: I'm not trying to you know, impugne anyone's motives, but

1033
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 4: I do think politically during the presidential election, having the

1034
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:34,280
Speaker 4: ceasefire on the table allows Kamala Harris to get away

1035
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,839
Speaker 4: with these sort of laughable two sided statements where in

1036
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 4: one breath she will say something that isolated, uh, the

1037
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 4: sentiment is totally pro Israel, and then the next breath

1038
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 4: she will just say a sentence that isolated, the sentiment

1039
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:51,839
Speaker 4: is totally propalised that It's just a complete force. It's

1040
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 4: like a political force. It's almost like satire. And I

1041
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 4: think having the deal in negotiation is sort of a

1042
00:55:58,440 --> 00:55:59,800
Speaker 4: tool for them to be able to do that.

1043
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 1: Remember when you had Biden licking the ice cream and

1044
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: being like, oh, yeah, we're getting a deal by Friday.

1045
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, watch this drive basically yeah yeah.

1046
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 3: That was I forget what month. That was many many

1047
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 3: months ago.

1048
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: Jake Sullivan told net Yahoo in this cabinet back in November,

1049
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 1: like this has to be over by the end of

1050
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 1: the year.

1051
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 3: That was twenty twenty three, Right.

1052
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:28,839
Speaker 4: We're closer every day, Ryan, Yeah, closer every day. All right, Well,

1053
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 4: you have some great reporting on Pakistan that we should

1054
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 4: get to tell you, so let's pivot.

1055
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:34,839
Speaker 3: Fascinating one.

1056
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:36,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's pivot to Pakistan.

1057
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 1: So over at drop Site News, my colleague Martaza Hussein

1058
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,439
Speaker 1: and I have a fascinating news story on the way

1059
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 1: that Pakistan is stuck in the middle of the superpower

1060
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: struggle between China and the United States. We can put

1061
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 1: this element up on the screen headline over there. Pakistan

1062
00:56:54,560 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 1: promised China a new militarized naval base, leaked documents reveal,

1063
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 1: And so I want to unpack what's going on here.

1064
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 3: But let's roll back a little bit.

1065
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:10,240
Speaker 1: So one of the best examples of the United States

1066
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:14,720
Speaker 1: shooting itself in the foot geopolitically came in nineteen fifty

1067
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: three through nineteen seventy nine. So nineteen fifty three, Iran,

1068
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 1: and I mean the US and the British go in

1069
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: and they overthrow the Iranian prime minister. There, the Runian

1070
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 1: prime minister had been saying like, hey, we got all

1071
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 1: this oil. Shouldn't this oil be benefiting the Iranian people,

1072
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: not just Western companies like British Petroleum, And we said no,

1073
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: in fact, it should be benefiting Western countries. Overthrow the

1074
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 1: installed an autocratic regime, the Shah, and we all know

1075
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: how that ended. Oh yeah, nineteen seventy nine, you get

1076
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: the Iranian Revolution It's going great, which has created an

1077
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 1: enemy in the region ever since for really no reason.

1078
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 3: So, in other words, not only.

1079
00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 1: Did we betray our democratic, our ostensible democratic values, we

1080
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 1: didn't even get the thing that we wanted, which was

1081
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: a pliant kind of client regime that is going to

1082
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: be friendly to Western interests.

1083
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 4: There are, despite Kermit Roosevelt's.

1084
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 1: Despite Kermit Roosevelt's best efforts, there are so many examples

1085
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: of this throughout American history.

1086
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 3: Today's story brings it up to the present.

1087
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: Because now you have the United States intervening in Pakistan's

1088
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: democratic affairs to oust Imran Khan to then bring in

1089
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: a more pliant kind of military regime which we assume

1090
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: is going to be more sympathetic to US interests. Instead,

1091
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 1: despite all of our support for the democratic backsliding going

1092
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 1: on in Pakistan, we have internal documents showing that a

1093
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 1: very desperate Pakistan has has now granted one of China's

1094
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 1: long standing demands of its Pakistani allies, which is to

1095
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: allow China to build a naval port and in Guadar

1096
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 1: and a militarized naval port. And to understand just how

1097
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 1: significant this is. We could put up a couple of

1098
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: maps here, so you see it's over Gwadar is over

1099
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 1: on the western side of Pakistan, over near if what's

1100
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 1: called the Strait of Hormuz. So if you look all

1101
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 1: the way to the left of that map, that's one

1102
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: of the kind of most important strategic locations on the

1103
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 1: entire globe. If you show the next map, it will

1104
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 1: immediately become clear.

1105
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 3: You know why this is so important.

1106
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: To the west, there is the Persian Gulf, so you

1107
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 1: get around this straight you're.

1108
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 3: Heading into there's the Ue, there's Saudi Arabia.

1109
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 1: That this is where you know, an enormous amount of

1110
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 1: the world's shipping, not you know, oil in particular, but

1111
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: shipping in general flows through and so control of this

1112
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 1: sea route is critical, not just you know, strategically economically,

1113
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 1: but also militarily in the event of a war. And

1114
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 1: so if you look at that port over there, you

1115
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 1: can see that it is, you know, one of one

1116
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 1: of the most important locations that you could possibly have.

1117
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 1: It is something that the United States has been eyeing

1118
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 1: warriley for many many years that they have known that,

1119
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 1: you know, Pakistan and China have a close relationship. They

1120
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 1: have known that China has wanted to militarize this port

1121
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 1: for its and also develop it strategically economically, and this

1122
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:34,440
Speaker 1: is a huge.

1123
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 4: Player in the Huti situation as well. Right fears that

1124
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 4: this could escalate into the Strait of Harmuz, right.

1125
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 1: Right, that, and you've had all sorts of right literally

1126
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 1: right now economic difficulties around the world because of the

1127
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:50,919
Speaker 1: way that the Hoodys have been able to shut down

1128
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 1: shipping around that area shows shows how, you know, shows

1129
01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 1: how important this entire region is. So if you if

1130
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 1: you roll back a little bit, what's happening in Pakistan,

1131
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 1: and people should read the entire story to get the

1132
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 1: get the full.

1133
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 3: Context of what's going on.

1134
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 1: You know, Pakistan, the kind of prime minister has has

1135
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:17,480
Speaker 1: had dominion over dominion is too strong a word, but

1136
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: has had influence over domestic policy. Whereas the military traditionally

1137
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 1: managed foreign affairs here in the United States, you know,

1138
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: the civilians are supposed to manage everything.

1139
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 3: That's how and that's how it ought to work.

1140
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 1: That the compromise those the military allowed and Pakistan's We'll

1141
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 1: let the prime minister do a few things internally, Imran

1142
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: Khan did things like brought about like a version of

1143
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 1: Medicare for all, like expanded healthcare to people. And they're like,

1144
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 1: all right, you know, and do that as long as

1145
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: we can still have our graft and we still control

1146
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 1: foreign policy. Fine, But then Imran Khan started getting involved

1147
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 1: in foreign affairs. He had a good relationship with the

1148
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:01,959
Speaker 1: Trump administration. Interestingly, even that the Trump administration was in

1149
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 1: the middle of enacting, you.

1150
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 3: Know, a Muslim band.

1151
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: But they got along well, the two of them, the

1152
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 1: Biden administration and in Ron Khan not so well. He

1153
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 1: famously tried to get a call from Biden after Biden

1154
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: was elected.

1155
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 3: Couldn't do it.

1156
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: Like it just there was something about that relationship that

1157
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: the Biden administration wanted distance in. So then in June

1158
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, he sits down with Jonathan Swan of

1159
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 1: Axios actually Axios at the time, and Swan asks, you know,

1160
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 1: if the Taliban takes over in Afghanistan, you know, will

1161
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 1: you allow you know, drone flights out of Pakistan. That

1162
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:44,440
Speaker 1: was a key element of the Biden administration is what

1163
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: they called over the horizon approach.

1164
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 3: They said, we're going to project power over the horizon.

1165
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 1: We don't need to occupy Afghanistan because our over the

1166
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 1: horizon capacity is unparalleled. Key to that over the horizon

1167
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 1: capacity was being able to operate out of Pakistan in

1168
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: ron Khan said absolutely not.

1169
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 3: I'm not doing that, and so that is that was

1170
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 3: looked at by the United States.

1171
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 1: As a as a major affront to them. Then, in

1172
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 1: February of twenty twenty two, i imron Khan had a

1173
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: long planned state visit to Moscow that coincided with the

1174
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 1: invasion Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The US tried to put

1175
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:28,920
Speaker 1: pressure on him to turn around, come back, cancel the trip,

1176
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 1: or at minimum denounce the Russian invasion.

1177
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 3: Imroan Khan refused.

1178
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 1: He said, at a rally, he said, what are we

1179
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 1: your slaves that we're going to just do?

1180
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 4: What?

1181
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 3: Do what you tell us?

1182
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 1: He said, We're going to remain neutral. We are friends

1183
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: with Ukraine, we are friends with Russia. This is a

1184
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 1: war between them because Pakistan desperately needs you know, grain

1185
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 1: from both, energy from both, like they don't. It's not

1186
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 1: in their interest to get in the middle of that conflict.

1187
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 1: Around this time, the State Department official Don Lu two

1188
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:10,600
Speaker 1: weeks later, meets with the Pakistan ambassador and says, listen,

1189
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 1: we are very bothered by this what he calls aggressive

1190
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 1: neutrality that Imran Khan is taking between Ukraine and Russia.

1191
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: But the United States believes that it is a policy

1192
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,960
Speaker 1: of the Prime minister alone, not a policy of you know,

1193
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 1: Pakistan government more broadly, and if Imran Khan is removed

1194
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 1: and a no confidence vote, all will be forgiven from

1195
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 1: the United States and everything will be cool. Just days later,

1196
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 1: weeks later, the army chief gives a televised address where

1197
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: he denounces the Russian invasion of Ukraine, so breaking with

1198
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister, the army then orchestrates the no confidence

1199
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 1: vote that the US had said it wanted to see happen.

1200
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:59,880
Speaker 1: They put pressure on a number of Imran Khan's part

1201
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:03,920
Speaker 1: officials who had been who had links to the military,

1202
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 1: and who had who could be compromised by the military.

1203
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 1: They flipped their votes, they ousd they oust Imran Khan,

1204
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,760
Speaker 1: and then they start shifting back toward the United States.

1205
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 3: So, if you remember, Nancy.

1206
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 1: Pelosi travels to Taiwan October September August September of twenty

1207
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 1: twenty two, and this is after they have ousted in

1208
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 1: Ron Khan and China goes to all of its allies

1209
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:32,240
Speaker 1: and they want a full throated denunciation of Nancy Pelosi's

1210
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 1: visit to Taiwan.

1211
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 3: Pakistan demers.

1212
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 1: They put out a little statement that's extremely mild, and

1213
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 1: it kind of infuriates the Chinese, like you're not gonna

1214
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 1: stand with us like you are we haven't. They call

1215
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 1: it an iron brotherhood they're supposed to have between Pakistan

1216
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 1: and China. In October of that year, as we report

1217
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 1: in this article, Badua, who's the military chief, finally gets

1218
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 1: what he's been banding of the United States or begging

1219
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 1: of the United States.

1220
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 3: Which which is a state visit to the to the US.

1221
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 1: While he's in Washington, he gets to meet with the

1222
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 1: top officials he also at at the Pakistani at Pakisian

1223
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:15,960
Speaker 1: ambassador's residence. He meets with a bunch of kind of

1224
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 1: foreign policy heads here in Washington, and he tells them

1225
01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 1: he doesn't really like the Chinese. They've always loved the

1226
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 1: United States. And he says two things that really raise eyebrows.

1227
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 1: To make the point, he says he loves American sitcoms

1228
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 1: from the nineties, many such cases. His favorite Married with Children,

1229
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:39,640
Speaker 1: Married with childrens married with children, which is excellent.

1230
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 4: By the way, I'm surprised that you're willing to go

1231
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 4: to the mat for married with children given the various

1232
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:46,200
Speaker 4: political incorrectness.

1233
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 1: Satire, it's satire, absolutely genius, genius show. And he adds

1234
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 1: he doesn't even like Chinese food, so he's he's sending

1235
01:06:58,160 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 1: a very clear.

1236
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 3: Very clear. This leaks out, of course, to the China,

1237
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 3: to the Chinese establish them as well.

1238
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:09,760
Speaker 1: And back in New York, the the Pakistani representative to

1239
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 1: the UN starts getting chided by the Chinese representative. They're

1240
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 1: like these sarcastic comments about no, you're best friends.

1241
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 3: No, the US, like what you know, what happened to us?

1242
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:25,600
Speaker 1: At the same time, China keeps telling Pakistan, look, we

1243
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 1: do not see ourselves as in a cold war, a

1244
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 1: zero sum cold war with the United States, Like it

1245
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 1: is okay, if you want to have good relations with

1246
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 1: the United States, that does not mean you have to have.

1247
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:41,520
Speaker 3: Bad relations with us. We don't see it that way.

1248
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 1: But what our reporting shows is that Pakistan understands that

1249
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 1: that's how the United States sees it, that they have.

1250
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:50,600
Speaker 3: To pick one or the other.

1251
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 1: And so this whole time they're having very they're they're

1252
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 1: very difficult balance, but they choose the United States. They

1253
01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 1: figure the United States is the way to go, and

1254
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 1: at first it starts to pay off.

1255
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:02,440
Speaker 3: As we also.

1256
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 1: Reported, Pakistan not only stops becoming neutral, they start producing

1257
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty five millimeters shells for Ukraine because

1258
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 1: they're very good at making these low grade, crappy shells,

1259
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:18,719
Speaker 1: which are the kind of shells they're important for this

1260
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:21,559
Speaker 1: kind of stalemated war in Ukraine. We're just you're just

1261
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:25,840
Speaker 1: lobbing endlessly, endless, cheap munitions at the other side.

1262
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:27,840
Speaker 4: And it's a boost to the Pakistani.

1263
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:31,040
Speaker 1: Econoy bost to pakistan economy, and the US secretly agrees

1264
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:37,320
Speaker 1: to let Pakistan use this clandestine weapons program as basically

1265
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:42,559
Speaker 1: collateral financing for an IMF loan that comes in, and

1266
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,720
Speaker 1: so the IMF loan is supposed to help stabilize things

1267
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,960
Speaker 1: cases the IMF loan because Pakistan is such a basket

1268
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:52,920
Speaker 1: case and because it's not following through on any of

1269
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:57,280
Speaker 1: its commitments when it comes to reforms, doesn't fully come through,

1270
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:01,320
Speaker 1: and the economy keeps collapsing, and because it keeps spiraling

1271
01:09:01,320 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 1: out of control, they have to go back to China

1272
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:06,400
Speaker 1: and so, and that's where our story comes in.

1273
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 3: They go back to China and they're like, look, we

1274
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:09,840
Speaker 3: love Chinese food.

1275
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:13,559
Speaker 1: We love Chinese food, married with children, really kind of

1276
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 1: problematic in some of its depictions.

1277
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 3: Not a huge fan love you guys, What can you do?

1278
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 1: And basically, the what that they need is they China

1279
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:26,479
Speaker 1: has lent them a bunch of money that is coming due.

1280
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 3: They need that.

1281
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:32,000
Speaker 1: They need those loans refinanced at a nice rate or

1282
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:34,800
Speaker 1: else they're you know, completely screwed because they're not getting

1283
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:36,840
Speaker 1: money in from anywhere else.

1284
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:39,240
Speaker 3: And so China is like, well, you know what.

1285
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 1: We want, like, we want access to this this port

1286
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 1: at Gwadar, and also we want you to start protecting

1287
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:52,320
Speaker 1: our Chinese citizens who are in Pakistan doing the Belton

1288
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:57,680
Speaker 1: Road construction projects and which Pakistan had not been doing effectively.

1289
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 1: You keep having these terrorists attacks, you know, hitting these

1290
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 1: Chinese officials of Chinese started to think that. At first,

1291
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:08,360
Speaker 1: they're telling them, okay, here's here's where the Chinese workers

1292
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:10,240
Speaker 1: are going to be. Make sure they're protected, and then

1293
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:11,840
Speaker 1: it seems like they were more likely to get hit

1294
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 1: when they told them. So they get what's going on here,

1295
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,400
Speaker 1: it's a compromise. They're leaking this out. So now they

1296
01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:20,559
Speaker 1: want private security, they want joint security, they want the

1297
01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 1: Chinese want.

1298
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:23,599
Speaker 3: They don't trust the Pakistanis anymore to.

1299
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:27,400
Speaker 1: Do the security. They want their own security forces. But

1300
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 1: that's a huge affront to sovereignty. It's Pakistan saying that

1301
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 1: they can't protect the Chinese civilians within Pakistan's borders and

1302
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:38,240
Speaker 1: then have to allow foreign government to have its own

1303
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 1: security forces in there, which they would already be doing

1304
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:48,480
Speaker 1: with a militarized port of Guadar. And meanwhile, because Pakistan's

1305
01:10:48,479 --> 01:10:53,160
Speaker 1: position is now so weakened, Pakistan didn't even get anything

1306
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:54,240
Speaker 1: for this concession.

1307
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:56,639
Speaker 3: It's just just a concession now.

1308
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:01,640
Speaker 1: The documents also suggest that there is no timeline for

1309
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:04,080
Speaker 1: the execution of this, that Pakistan is going to continue

1310
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:07,080
Speaker 1: to try say, Okay, yes we've agreed in principle and

1311
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 1: this is going to happen quote in due time, as

1312
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:13,599
Speaker 1: one of the documents says, but that doesn't mean necessarily tomorrow.

1313
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 1: And now that this reporting is out, I'll be the

1314
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:22,200
Speaker 1: State Department later day asking them about this. The US

1315
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 1: is going to, I'm sure, raise significant concerns, but then

1316
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:29,599
Speaker 1: it raises the question, what on earth is the United

1317
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:34,160
Speaker 1: States getting out of supporting basically a military dictatorship that

1318
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 1: is like embarrassing it on the international stage because you know,

1319
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 1: they're trying to sanction Venezuela, trying to sanction Georgia for

1320
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:47,640
Speaker 1: democratic backsliding, while Pakistan is engaged in just you know,

1321
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:53,000
Speaker 1: complete evisceration of its own democracy and they're not even

1322
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:55,320
Speaker 1: getting a military ally out of it. They're handing this

1323
01:11:55,439 --> 01:12:00,160
Speaker 1: key port over to China instead. Just complete debacle on

1324
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:00,840
Speaker 1: on every level.

1325
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:02,960
Speaker 4: And can you maybe give some contacts on the state

1326
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 4: of the Pakistani economy, because I think that gets to

1327
01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:09,680
Speaker 4: the motivations of Pakistan and navigating the difficult relationship or

1328
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:13,240
Speaker 4: trying to balance US interests Chinese interest with its own interests.

1329
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:16,360
Speaker 1: So the IMF just announced that within a couple of

1330
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:18,639
Speaker 1: weeks they're going to go to their final executive board

1331
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:20,720
Speaker 1: meeting with a seven billion dollars.

1332
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:21,439
Speaker 3: What they call e f F.

1333
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:29,599
Speaker 1: A bailout, which right now, you know that the economy

1334
01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:34,840
Speaker 1: is a complete disaster, rampant joblessness. They recently put in

1335
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 1: a new firewall to try to censor the media, ran

1336
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:42,320
Speaker 1: a lot of I think it was it.

1337
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:43,719
Speaker 3: Was time to some of our articles.

1338
01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:48,439
Speaker 1: They've band drop site news inside Pakistan and it slowed

1339
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:51,960
Speaker 1: the internet to a complete crawl. You've got constant blackouts,

1340
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:54,080
Speaker 1: like the heat waves. They are insane, like they're getting

1341
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:57,639
Speaker 1: hit with climate change, you know, worse than most other

1342
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:01,200
Speaker 1: countries because of just where they are are geographically on

1343
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:04,960
Speaker 1: the planet and what their climate already was. And so

1344
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:08,360
Speaker 1: right now, the military basically controls the entire economy, and

1345
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:10,680
Speaker 1: so it is you have, you know, fifty percent of

1346
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:13,560
Speaker 1: literacy and a completely stifled population.

1347
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:17,360
Speaker 3: It's very much like Egypt where the.

1348
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:25,880
Speaker 1: We've got these like military run corrupt companies that are

1349
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:29,280
Speaker 1: are that are just that just exists to basically, you know,

1350
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:32,840
Speaker 1: make the generals get richer, and the generals then take

1351
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:37,200
Speaker 1: their money. This is what's fascinating about the international relations.

1352
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:41,760
Speaker 1: And they stash it in London and the US through

1353
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:46,559
Speaker 1: properties and other other holdings. And so, yes, it's true

1354
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:49,960
Speaker 1: that the Bodua likes married with children and doesn't like

1355
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:52,479
Speaker 1: Chinese food. And he talked to about his culture. He

1356
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 1: was trying to say, I like America better, right, and

1357
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:55,960
Speaker 1: who can blame him?

1358
01:13:55,960 --> 01:13:57,840
Speaker 3: It's we're great over it's great over here. We love it.

1359
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 1: But what is really also going on is that their

1360
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:05,160
Speaker 1: children are being educated here and their illicit gains are

1361
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:10,320
Speaker 1: housed here, and that means we can snatch them. The

1362
01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:14,200
Speaker 1: Russian oligarchs learned that the hard way after Putin's invasion.

1363
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:17,599
Speaker 1: You know, the UK and the US seized a bunch

1364
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:20,920
Speaker 1: of oligarch property, and so.

1365
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:24,559
Speaker 3: We really have them.

1366
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:26,839
Speaker 4: Pakistani elites are tiled to the US.

1367
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:29,439
Speaker 1: We have the Pakistani elites kind of captured in the

1368
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 1: sense that it might not be in the interest of

1369
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:38,599
Speaker 1: Pakistan itself to continue to have this tight relationship with US,

1370
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:41,960
Speaker 1: but it's in their personal interest because we can just oh, yeah,

1371
01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 1: is that your penthouse apartment?

1372
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:46,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, your yacht not anymore?

1373
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:50,519
Speaker 1: Another your sanctioned boom and once you're sanctioned, once it's snatched,

1374
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:51,559
Speaker 1: you're done.

1375
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 3: So we'll see, which which is why.

1376
01:14:56,360 --> 01:14:58,600
Speaker 1: It will be difficult for them to actually execute and

1377
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:01,040
Speaker 1: China knows it actually ex cute on this promise that

1378
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:01,839
Speaker 1: they've now made.

1379
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:04,560
Speaker 4: One of the more interesting subplots of the war in

1380
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:08,000
Speaker 4: Gaza right now is how China has distanced itself from

1381
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:12,799
Speaker 4: Israel in the aftermath of the invasion. After October seventh,

1382
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:16,240
Speaker 4: China sort of is trying to make inroads literally in

1383
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:18,400
Speaker 4: roads with a lot of different countries around the world

1384
01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:23,879
Speaker 4: and sort of curry favorability and realized that it couldn't

1385
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:30,200
Speaker 4: continue having this friendship between Net Yahu and Stujen Pang

1386
01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:32,519
Speaker 4: that was playing out very publicly. I mean net and

1387
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:36,040
Speaker 4: Yahoo would rebuke the United States by turning to China

1388
01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 4: before October seventh in various ways. That was like sort

1389
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:43,080
Speaker 4: of a strategic maneuver that he was very intentionally making.

1390
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:45,519
Speaker 4: And I'm curious Ran what you think about how this

1391
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:47,720
Speaker 4: was playing out in the context of Gaza, which is

1392
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:51,600
Speaker 4: obviously very important to countries like Pakistan, and it is

1393
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:54,960
Speaker 4: important to China given its reputation being on the line

1394
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 4: as it tries to make again literal inroads pun please

1395
01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:04,520
Speaker 4: excuse the pun. It's in different countries as a critical

1396
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:07,799
Speaker 4: mission to its own self interest on a world stage

1397
01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 4: going forward.

1398
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:14,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, Publicly Pakistan doesn't recognize Israel and is critical, but

1399
01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 1: privately it is quite friendly and on good terms on

1400
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:23,240
Speaker 1: the size, on good terms with with Israel. Whereas Moron

1401
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:25,240
Speaker 1: Kong would have you know, if he were free now

1402
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:27,960
Speaker 1: he's in prison, you would be one of the most

1403
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:31,080
Speaker 1: vocal critics of of what's going on.

1404
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:33,559
Speaker 4: There, as would his supporters if you were.

1405
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:38,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but as it is, it's it's new, you know,

1406
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:40,400
Speaker 1: the country is neutralized when it comes to that comes

1407
01:16:40,400 --> 01:16:42,840
Speaker 1: to that question. But I think what from China's perspective,

1408
01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:46,080
Speaker 1: Africa plays a huge role in this in the Global

1409
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:51,679
Speaker 1: South more generally that China sees uh China. China believes

1410
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:56,800
Speaker 1: that the Global South and the bricks countries see US

1411
01:16:56,880 --> 01:17:00,920
Speaker 1: agemony as not beneficial to them, and see the rise

1412
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:05,640
Speaker 1: of China and multipolarity as potentially beneficial in giving them

1413
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:10,000
Speaker 1: more room to maneuver and be and actually care and

1414
01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:12,320
Speaker 1: actually have a sense of their own agency and nationalism.

1415
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:18,400
Speaker 1: And there they see Israel as a bulwark of American

1416
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 1: gemony and and see siding with the Palestinians there as.

1417
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:28,240
Speaker 3: Favorable to a rise of multipolarity.

1418
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:33,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's so many layers to this, so fascinating, great story,

1419
01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:35,400
Speaker 4: interesting stuff. A lot of people won't be able to

1420
01:17:35,439 --> 01:17:37,439
Speaker 4: read it. In Pakistan unfortunately.

1421
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:40,640
Speaker 1: Well they call it Vpnistan because everyone there has a

1422
01:17:40,720 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 1: VPN So I think people are gonna find ways to

1423
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:45,800
Speaker 1: get to it, and.

1424
01:17:45,800 --> 01:17:47,760
Speaker 4: I'm sure they will. All right, So coming up, we

1425
01:17:47,840 --> 01:17:51,040
Speaker 4: have an interview with Matt Walsh about his new film,

1426
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:54,960
Speaker 4: and it's going to be quite an interesting conversation Ryan, so.

1427
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:56,679
Speaker 3: Sure well looking forward to it.

1428
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:02,160
Speaker 4: We are joined now by Matt Walsh, who is out

1429
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:05,519
Speaker 4: with a new movie called Am I Racist? That is

1430
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:08,880
Speaker 4: in theaters around the country. Matt obviously hosts upon him

1431
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:10,880
Speaker 4: as show with the Daily Wire. Matt, thank you for

1432
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:11,400
Speaker 4: joining us.

1433
01:18:11,439 --> 01:18:12,559
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me of course.

1434
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:15,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, now the movie's doing pretty well. One of the

1435
01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:18,240
Speaker 4: I don't know if it was a coincidence or fate,

1436
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:21,840
Speaker 4: whatever it was, as it happened when your movie was

1437
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:25,520
Speaker 4: released last week, everyone was debating whether a very particular

1438
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:29,120
Speaker 4: post on social media was racist. So we thought we

1439
01:18:29,120 --> 01:18:32,120
Speaker 4: would play a little game of was it racist with

1440
01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:35,880
Speaker 4: Laura Lumour's infamous curry tweet. If Kamala Harris wins, the

1441
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:37,960
Speaker 4: white House will smell like curry and white House speeches

1442
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:40,800
Speaker 4: will be facilitated by a call center. The American people

1443
01:18:40,840 --> 01:18:42,680
Speaker 4: will only be able to convey their feedback through a

1444
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 4: customer satisfaction survey at the end of the call that

1445
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:47,719
Speaker 4: nobody will understand. One of the interesting things about your movie,

1446
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:50,479
Speaker 4: which I really enjoyed. Brian might have something to add

1447
01:18:50,479 --> 01:18:52,400
Speaker 4: on that. We might disagree on it. I really enjoyed

1448
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:56,559
Speaker 4: it is getting to the bottom of the kind of

1449
01:18:57,479 --> 01:19:01,400
Speaker 4: the industrial complex that's been built up around race relations

1450
01:19:01,439 --> 01:19:07,000
Speaker 4: that often will advance this silly, incoherent, elite definition that

1451
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:10,240
Speaker 4: used to be prolific in academia and then leaked out

1452
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:13,120
Speaker 4: into the rest of the world. So, by the sort

1453
01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:16,360
Speaker 4: of definition of racism that you're challenging in this film,

1454
01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:20,479
Speaker 4: is that Lord Lumer tweet racist. And then by the

1455
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:23,519
Speaker 4: kind of definition that you're trying to promote of racism,

1456
01:19:23,560 --> 01:19:26,000
Speaker 4: which maybe you have a way to explain it, I

1457
01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:27,960
Speaker 4: would define I don't want to put words in your

1458
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:31,000
Speaker 4: mouth as a sort of like genuine discrimination based on

1459
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:34,000
Speaker 4: this belief that people of a different race are somehow inferior.

1460
01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:36,080
Speaker 4: Is this post racist?

1461
01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:42,000
Speaker 10: I mean, by the definition advanced by the DEI industry,

1462
01:19:42,120 --> 01:19:46,639
Speaker 10: it certainly would count as racist. I wouldn't call it race.

1463
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:49,519
Speaker 10: I think it's just kind of a dumb joke, not

1464
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:52,080
Speaker 10: very helpful joke. And also, by the way, I like

1465
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:54,559
Speaker 10: Indian food, so I think when things mell like curry,

1466
01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:57,639
Speaker 10: I'm a huge fan of curry personally, so I don't

1467
01:19:57,680 --> 01:19:58,479
Speaker 10: see that as an insult.

1468
01:19:58,479 --> 01:20:00,120
Speaker 3: But look, someone.

1469
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:03,519
Speaker 10: Engaging in stereotypes, it might be insensitive, it might be

1470
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:08,400
Speaker 10: unhelpful politically, but it's not necessarily racist. In fact, I

1471
01:20:08,439 --> 01:20:12,920
Speaker 10: would say it's often not racist, because to me, what

1472
01:20:13,080 --> 01:20:16,639
Speaker 10: racism means is that you hate people of another race

1473
01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 10: and or you think that they're inferior to you in

1474
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:26,000
Speaker 10: some way inherently because of their you know, immutable characteristics.

1475
01:20:26,479 --> 01:20:27,320
Speaker 3: So that's racism.

1476
01:20:27,360 --> 01:20:29,040
Speaker 10: And as long as you don't feel that way about

1477
01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:31,160
Speaker 10: another race of people, then you're not racist. You might

1478
01:20:31,640 --> 01:20:35,240
Speaker 10: you might have stereotypical views about another group of people.

1479
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:40,519
Speaker 10: Everybody does, but it's not automatically racist if you don't

1480
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:43,639
Speaker 10: also harbor that ill will towards them. And as far

1481
01:20:43,680 --> 01:20:46,640
Speaker 10: as whether or not, sort of the real answer is

1482
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:50,000
Speaker 10: that with the Laura lumertweet, I wouldn't say that it's racist.

1483
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:52,160
Speaker 10: The only person who can answer whether it's racist is her.

1484
01:20:52,200 --> 01:20:55,400
Speaker 10: We'd have to ask her, well, do you hate people

1485
01:20:55,400 --> 01:20:57,320
Speaker 10: of Indian descent? Do you think that they're inferior to

1486
01:20:57,360 --> 01:21:01,040
Speaker 10: you in some way? If the answer is yes, then yeah,

1487
01:21:01,040 --> 01:21:04,760
Speaker 10: that's racist, But she'd probably say no. And if she

1488
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:07,160
Speaker 10: said no, then I'll have to take her word for it.

1489
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:08,800
Speaker 10: She's the only one who can speak to her own

1490
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:11,720
Speaker 10: you know what's going on in her own mind and

1491
01:21:11,720 --> 01:21:12,519
Speaker 10: her own heart.

1492
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:15,400
Speaker 1: Although she's a Trump supporter, she wants Colma to lose.

1493
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:19,519
Speaker 1: Presumably she's making the point in a negative way. Right,

1494
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:21,720
Speaker 1: this is a bad thing. That's a call center, and

1495
01:21:22,360 --> 01:21:23,679
Speaker 1: she's saying these are all bad things.

1496
01:21:23,840 --> 01:21:25,640
Speaker 4: This is an interesting point about stereotype.

1497
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:26,639
Speaker 3: By your definition, make.

1498
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:29,679
Speaker 4: It, cause stereotyping is often leveraged to say that there's

1499
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:32,479
Speaker 4: something negative that is generally attributed to someone of a

1500
01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:33,160
Speaker 4: different race.

1501
01:21:33,320 --> 01:21:34,920
Speaker 3: Right, that's it's great, it's negative.

1502
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:37,760
Speaker 10: She means that it a negative, right, because we can

1503
01:21:37,800 --> 01:21:39,920
Speaker 10: assume that she thinks things smelling like curry is a

1504
01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:42,840
Speaker 10: bad thing. I guess not a fan of Indian food.

1505
01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:48,360
Speaker 10: But you can believe, or engage in, or repeat negative

1506
01:21:48,360 --> 01:21:50,720
Speaker 10: stereotypes and not be racist. You might just happen to

1507
01:21:50,760 --> 01:21:56,000
Speaker 10: think so. For example, I give another example, somebody might say,

1508
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:58,840
Speaker 10: you know, Asians are bad drivers. I don't know if

1509
01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:02,760
Speaker 10: that's actually true that I'm not sure. But if you

1510
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:05,360
Speaker 10: happen to believe that it's true, does.

1511
01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:06,240
Speaker 3: That mean that you hate Asians?

1512
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:08,639
Speaker 10: No, it just means that you think that Asians buying

1513
01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:09,559
Speaker 10: larger bad drivers.

1514
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:10,559
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean you hate them.

1515
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:14,480
Speaker 10: It doesn't mean that you're racist against them.

1516
01:22:13,320 --> 01:22:14,960
Speaker 4: Although it could mean that you think there's like an

1517
01:22:14,960 --> 01:22:17,800
Speaker 4: intellectual inferiority, or it can mean you think there's a

1518
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 4: cultural reason that they're about at driving in Western countries.

1519
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:20,600
Speaker 3: That could be.

1520
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:22,479
Speaker 10: I mean, and no one thinks that Asians are or

1521
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:25,880
Speaker 10: intellectually inferior. I think everybody understands that they're that's one

1522
01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:27,719
Speaker 10: of the other. Because stereotypes can be positive to another

1523
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:29,800
Speaker 10: stereotype is that they're very good at math and science

1524
01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:30,080
Speaker 10: and that.

1525
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:30,439
Speaker 3: Sort of thing.

1526
01:22:30,760 --> 01:22:35,080
Speaker 10: So you know, there are generalizations you can make about

1527
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:38,680
Speaker 10: groups of people that.

1528
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:39,040
Speaker 3: That can be largely true.

1529
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:41,960
Speaker 10: And you know, I'm not sure I've ever heard of

1530
01:22:42,000 --> 01:22:44,639
Speaker 10: stereotype or I thought to myself, well that.

1531
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:46,160
Speaker 3: Bears no resemblance to reality.

1532
01:22:46,160 --> 01:22:47,680
Speaker 10: I don't know one of you could think I've never

1533
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:50,479
Speaker 10: heard of a stereotype, where I said, I don't even

1534
01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:51,280
Speaker 10: know where that comes from.

1535
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:52,759
Speaker 3: That's just falling out of the sky.

1536
01:22:53,160 --> 01:22:57,040
Speaker 10: Usually stereotypes arise because you know, society has observed things

1537
01:22:57,040 --> 01:22:59,280
Speaker 10: about groups of people, and they could be negative, they

1538
01:22:59,280 --> 01:23:01,799
Speaker 10: can be positive, But I don't see them as inherently racist.

1539
01:23:02,160 --> 01:23:03,760
Speaker 4: Now, we have a clip from the film that we

1540
01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:06,160
Speaker 4: want to roll here, let's go ahead and play this.

1541
01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:09,120
Speaker 4: This is from the dinner scene. Matt. You've probably seen

1542
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 4: this one hundred times by now, but sometimes let's take

1543
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:12,559
Speaker 4: a watch.

1544
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:14,960
Speaker 11: I used to be a white woman, an unsuccessful one

1545
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:19,599
Speaker 11: for many decades, and it was a miserable experience. And really,

1546
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:23,280
Speaker 11: the hatred of yourselves and each other is like the

1547
01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:26,680
Speaker 11: most the not seeing your power, the being afraid. Like

1548
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:28,960
Speaker 11: all you do is talk about each other, talk shit

1549
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:29,479
Speaker 11: about yourself.

1550
01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:33,080
Speaker 3: My god, fat, that's all they do. I'll tell you

1551
01:23:33,080 --> 01:23:33,720
Speaker 3: he's a white woman.

1552
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:39,040
Speaker 4: But that's it. I'm so fat, I'm so stupid. I'm

1553
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:40,640
Speaker 4: blah blah blah.

1554
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:51,080
Speaker 12: Sorry, your kids are watching you, and they're watching you

1555
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:54,240
Speaker 12: talking shit about each other, you know, raging against the

1556
01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:56,439
Speaker 12: machine or being silent or whatever the hell it is

1557
01:23:56,479 --> 01:23:58,559
Speaker 12: that you're doing or not doing, and they know that

1558
01:23:58,600 --> 01:23:59,639
Speaker 12: you're not doing shit for them.

1559
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:05,000
Speaker 3: Important. That is so important what you just said, it's

1560
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:05,960
Speaker 3: it's really important.

1561
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:08,920
Speaker 4: You may have to add.

1562
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:11,400
Speaker 3: I would love to take a seat.

1563
01:24:12,360 --> 01:24:13,040
Speaker 4: You're not allowed to.

1564
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:16,640
Speaker 3: How did you get the cameras in there? By the way, Like,

1565
01:24:16,680 --> 01:24:19,280
Speaker 3: what's the set that up for us? Yeah, they're not

1566
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:23,160
Speaker 3: hidden cameras that obviously they're like cinematic level. Yeah. Absolutely,

1567
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:26,240
Speaker 3: everybody knew. Everybody's miked up, and everybody's.

1568
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:30,760
Speaker 10: Miked Everybody knew they were being filmed, and they thought

1569
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:33,160
Speaker 10: they were being filmed for a documentary about anti racism,

1570
01:24:33,439 --> 01:24:36,280
Speaker 10: which they were, because that is what we made do

1571
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:38,759
Speaker 10: uh so we you know, that's what we told people

1572
01:24:38,760 --> 01:24:40,400
Speaker 10: were making a documentary on anti racism.

1573
01:24:40,520 --> 01:24:45,080
Speaker 3: They know you were involved in it. Probably not, probably not.

1574
01:24:45,040 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 1: So like this, so this waiter, like, they didn't they

1575
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:50,960
Speaker 1: didn't know the way that the waiter was part of

1576
01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:51,720
Speaker 1: the film.

1577
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:53,120
Speaker 3: No, No, they didn't.

1578
01:24:53,160 --> 01:24:54,719
Speaker 1: They didn't, but they knew you had to be miked

1579
01:24:54,760 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 1: up because everybody in the kitchen and everywhere else had

1580
01:24:57,000 --> 01:24:58,120
Speaker 1: signed the thing.

1581
01:24:58,200 --> 01:24:58,960
Speaker 3: Is that how that worked?

1582
01:24:59,240 --> 01:24:59,600
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1583
01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:00,599
Speaker 3: I know, I don't think they knew that I had

1584
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:03,559
Speaker 3: a mic on and we tried.

1585
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:05,720
Speaker 10: I wanted to sit at the table at the race

1586
01:25:05,720 --> 01:25:09,240
Speaker 10: to dinner and be a part of the conversation, but

1587
01:25:09,360 --> 01:25:12,320
Speaker 10: we were told that they only accept women to be

1588
01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:14,640
Speaker 10: at the table, which I thought was interesting because then

1589
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:17,439
Speaker 10: our next question is, well what is a woman, which

1590
01:25:17,520 --> 01:25:20,200
Speaker 10: kind of harkens back to our first film, and.

1591
01:25:20,400 --> 01:25:22,000
Speaker 3: Later do sit down in that scene?

1592
01:25:22,360 --> 01:25:24,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, well, I kind of invited my I earned my

1593
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:26,280
Speaker 10: seat at the table, I invited myself to be a

1594
01:25:26,280 --> 01:25:27,880
Speaker 10: part of the dinner and I felt.

1595
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:29,880
Speaker 3: As a man does painful Yeah.

1596
01:25:29,680 --> 01:25:32,360
Speaker 10: Did a little man splaining to the women, and they

1597
01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:34,759
Speaker 10: seem to really enjoy it.

1598
01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:37,240
Speaker 4: It's weird to me because they famously I guess it's

1599
01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:39,479
Speaker 4: not so famous, but they back in. I mean this

1600
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:41,160
Speaker 4: was years ago, this was pre COVID. There was a

1601
01:25:41,160 --> 01:25:45,280
Speaker 4: podcast called Femmesplainers that Danielle from Crittenden Crittenden from and

1602
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:47,959
Speaker 4: Christina hoff Summer's hosted where they had a similar experience

1603
01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:50,720
Speaker 4: with Cyral Raw over the race to dinner stuff. And

1604
01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:52,880
Speaker 4: you'd think they would be way more careful, but it

1605
01:25:52,880 --> 01:25:54,880
Speaker 4: seems as though maybe they let their guard down.

1606
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:57,559
Speaker 10: I don't know, Yeah, that is I guest. Of course,

1607
01:25:57,560 --> 01:25:59,000
Speaker 10: I get this question all the time. It's like, how

1608
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:02,479
Speaker 10: did they not recognize me? Or how did they not

1609
01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:05,880
Speaker 10: ask more questions? And I guess I don't know the

1610
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:08,680
Speaker 10: answer to that question, but I do think that the

1611
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:10,600
Speaker 10: answer I generally give, I think it's correct, is that

1612
01:26:10,640 --> 01:26:12,599
Speaker 10: a lot of these people live in kind of a bubble.

1613
01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:16,120
Speaker 10: So number one, they're not as aware of you know,

1614
01:26:16,320 --> 01:26:17,600
Speaker 10: people outside that bubbles we.

1615
01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:18,160
Speaker 3: Assume they are.

1616
01:26:18,160 --> 01:26:22,320
Speaker 10: So me, as someone in conservative media, I'm actually outside

1617
01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:24,360
Speaker 10: of their bubble, which is weird to me because I

1618
01:26:24,479 --> 01:26:27,639
Speaker 10: know everybody in liberal media because I keep I want

1619
01:26:27,640 --> 01:26:28,439
Speaker 10: to know what they're saying.

1620
01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:31,080
Speaker 3: So I kind of assumed that they do the same.

1621
01:26:31,320 --> 01:26:35,800
Speaker 4: You're familiar with Ryan Grimm, noted liberal journalist Ryan grim.

1622
01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:38,479
Speaker 10: So he's right about twelve percent of the time, which

1623
01:26:38,479 --> 01:26:40,320
Speaker 10: I appreciate that.

1624
01:26:41,200 --> 01:26:44,360
Speaker 3: But they so they're kind of in this interesting.

1625
01:26:43,880 --> 01:26:47,680
Speaker 10: Bubble that they don't not only I didn't know who

1626
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:49,400
Speaker 10: I was, but also I think it was kind of

1627
01:26:49,400 --> 01:26:53,160
Speaker 10: inconceivable to them that they would ever find themselves in

1628
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:56,120
Speaker 10: a room with someone who doesn't agree with them. I

1629
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:58,800
Speaker 10: think it just never occurred to them because this's never

1630
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:03,200
Speaker 10: happened before. Angel appears later in the film, and I

1631
01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:05,000
Speaker 10: think me sitting in the room with her was probably

1632
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:07,759
Speaker 10: the first time in like twenty years that she's actually

1633
01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:11,080
Speaker 10: sat across the room from someone who doesn't already agree

1634
01:27:11,080 --> 01:27:12,880
Speaker 10: with everything that she thinks.

1635
01:27:13,439 --> 01:27:16,200
Speaker 1: Part of the twelve percent that I've been right about

1636
01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:18,280
Speaker 1: over the years, I think has been that I do

1637
01:27:18,320 --> 01:27:23,760
Speaker 1: think this entire DEI industry is a grift and it's

1638
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:28,120
Speaker 1: just milking corporations, and also that you've written about that, yeah,

1639
01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:31,639
Speaker 1: and that it is actively harmful in the sense that

1640
01:27:32,160 --> 01:27:37,200
Speaker 1: when like corporations. Actually, I actually do believe that corporations

1641
01:27:37,240 --> 01:27:42,960
Speaker 1: oftentimes internally do have racist structures set up within them.

1642
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:47,000
Speaker 1: And also they all operate sometimes in racist ways. And

1643
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:51,800
Speaker 1: when they get sued for that and they're facing the

1644
01:27:51,840 --> 01:27:54,439
Speaker 1: consequences of that, one of the things that they do

1645
01:27:55,080 --> 01:27:57,800
Speaker 1: is they hire these DEI consultants and say, well, you

1646
01:27:57,880 --> 01:27:58,720
Speaker 1: can't come after us.

1647
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:00,960
Speaker 3: Actually, how could we possibly be racist?

1648
01:28:01,400 --> 01:28:03,760
Speaker 1: Like we spent this money to bring these consultants in,

1649
01:28:04,439 --> 01:28:08,040
Speaker 1: and the consultants then are then cover for they're more

1650
01:28:08,560 --> 01:28:12,960
Speaker 1: systemic racism to be allowed to continue without being interrogated.

1651
01:28:13,040 --> 01:28:16,080
Speaker 1: What it does is it turns the interrogation inward, where

1652
01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:18,479
Speaker 1: you say, well, these structures and.

1653
01:28:18,760 --> 01:28:21,040
Speaker 3: These corporations can't be challenged.

1654
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:24,439
Speaker 1: What we really need to do is look inside and

1655
01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:28,160
Speaker 1: find our own racism. And because we're all born with

1656
01:28:28,200 --> 01:28:32,200
Speaker 1: it or whatever, it's just inculcated in us, none of

1657
01:28:32,240 --> 01:28:34,519
Speaker 1: us are then responsible for it, and so therefore we're

1658
01:28:34,520 --> 01:28:38,599
Speaker 1: not responsible for actually changing anything on a system wide basis.

1659
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:43,519
Speaker 1: But I'm curious, has somebody who spent so much time

1660
01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:45,800
Speaker 1: within this grift of a system.

1661
01:28:45,960 --> 01:28:49,759
Speaker 3: Like, what was your take on these folks, like.

1662
01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:53,360
Speaker 1: Do they believe what they're saying or have they found

1663
01:28:53,479 --> 01:28:58,400
Speaker 1: like a consultancy that is that they're able to get

1664
01:28:58,479 --> 01:29:00,240
Speaker 1: money on and they're kind of now locked into it.

1665
01:29:01,479 --> 01:29:04,320
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's well, the short answer is, I don't know

1666
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:07,120
Speaker 10: exactly if they believe what they say, but I but

1667
01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:12,400
Speaker 10: it strikes me that they probably don't believe much of it,

1668
01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:15,880
Speaker 10: especially the parts of it that are so absurd on

1669
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:18,439
Speaker 10: their face. But there's a lot of money in it,

1670
01:29:18,479 --> 01:29:20,439
Speaker 10: as we discovered making the film. And then of course

1671
01:29:20,439 --> 01:29:24,719
Speaker 10: there's a lot of power and influence, and also there's

1672
01:29:24,800 --> 01:29:28,880
Speaker 10: the it must feel very good for them to be

1673
01:29:29,160 --> 01:29:31,880
Speaker 10: consulted as these kind of moral experts.

1674
01:29:33,040 --> 01:29:34,680
Speaker 3: And so that's what they that's what they get out

1675
01:29:34,720 --> 01:29:36,480
Speaker 3: of it. So it's actually not very complicated.

1676
01:29:36,520 --> 01:29:39,080
Speaker 10: That's why they're in this because they go money, power, influence, Right,

1677
01:29:39,080 --> 01:29:42,120
Speaker 10: it's the tales told as time. Now on the other hand,

1678
01:29:42,160 --> 01:29:44,800
Speaker 10: you've got so that's like the Robind'angelo's of the world

1679
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:47,960
Speaker 10: selling the books, making millions of dollars. But then you've

1680
01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:49,840
Speaker 10: got the people that are actually buying the books and

1681
01:29:49,880 --> 01:29:51,760
Speaker 10: who are going to the race dinner and going to

1682
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:54,480
Speaker 10: these seminars that we kind of crashed for our film.

1683
01:29:55,200 --> 01:29:57,720
Speaker 10: They're a more interesting case because they're not getting any

1684
01:29:57,720 --> 01:29:59,559
Speaker 10: money out of They're spending money and they don't they're

1685
01:29:59,560 --> 01:30:03,160
Speaker 10: not getting influence out of it. So for them, I

1686
01:30:03,160 --> 01:30:04,960
Speaker 10: think part of it's like a virtue signal. They want

1687
01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:06,280
Speaker 10: to be able to tell their friends that hey, I

1688
01:30:06,280 --> 01:30:08,400
Speaker 10: went to race to dinner and it was so life changing.

1689
01:30:09,520 --> 01:30:11,160
Speaker 10: But then most of it for those people is that

1690
01:30:11,200 --> 01:30:15,839
Speaker 10: I think they actually do believe it.

1691
01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:18,120
Speaker 3: It is speaking to something. There's like something going on

1692
01:30:18,200 --> 01:30:19,080
Speaker 3: inside them.

1693
01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:21,880
Speaker 10: I don't know if it's just like a kind of

1694
01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:23,479
Speaker 10: guilt or something that they carry around.

1695
01:30:24,560 --> 01:30:26,839
Speaker 3: And a lot of them are secular.

1696
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:28,800
Speaker 10: They don't have religion, and so this becomes kind of

1697
01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:30,320
Speaker 10: like a replacement for religion.

1698
01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:32,640
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's part of it. I think

1699
01:30:32,640 --> 01:30:33,400
Speaker 3: it's probably part of it.

1700
01:30:33,479 --> 01:30:35,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like those people have kind of correctly

1701
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:41,320
Speaker 1: identified that they were raised in a society that still

1702
01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:44,679
Speaker 1: does have racism as part of it.

1703
01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:46,840
Speaker 4: As I think and multiicocial society always will.

1704
01:30:47,479 --> 01:30:49,960
Speaker 1: Well, it's their way of kind of trying to confront it.

1705
01:30:50,000 --> 01:30:52,559
Speaker 1: I think it's ill thought out, But I understand where

1706
01:30:52,560 --> 01:30:53,360
Speaker 1: they're coming from.

1707
01:30:53,600 --> 01:30:56,200
Speaker 10: But what I would say to, yes, there's still racism

1708
01:30:56,240 --> 01:30:58,880
Speaker 10: in society. There always will be. I mean, as long

1709
01:30:58,920 --> 01:31:00,760
Speaker 10: as there are different races and is living together, you

1710
01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:03,400
Speaker 10: can have racism. I think we have a lot less

1711
01:31:03,439 --> 01:31:07,880
Speaker 10: of it than pretty much anywhere else on earth. But

1712
01:31:09,479 --> 01:31:13,080
Speaker 10: the whatever racism you find in society now is individual.

1713
01:31:13,200 --> 01:31:16,040
Speaker 10: It's not systemic. It's not in the system that these

1714
01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:21,160
Speaker 10: systems are not set up to disadvantage quote unquote people

1715
01:31:21,200 --> 01:31:23,479
Speaker 10: of color. In fact, the only real systemic racism you

1716
01:31:23,520 --> 01:31:26,240
Speaker 10: find anymore is the kind that's targeted at white people

1717
01:31:26,240 --> 01:31:27,080
Speaker 10: and also Asians.

1718
01:31:27,479 --> 01:31:28,800
Speaker 3: That's what affirmative action is like that.

1719
01:31:29,280 --> 01:31:31,960
Speaker 10: The only time you ever find a policy that specifically says,

1720
01:31:32,760 --> 01:31:36,800
Speaker 10: here's an advantage that you can't have if you're a race.

1721
01:31:36,840 --> 01:31:38,320
Speaker 10: The only time it ever says that is if it's

1722
01:31:38,479 --> 01:31:43,640
Speaker 10: singling out white and or Asian people. It doesn't go

1723
01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:44,559
Speaker 10: the other way anymore.

1724
01:31:44,640 --> 01:31:47,000
Speaker 4: Well, so what about even people on the right now

1725
01:31:47,080 --> 01:31:50,000
Speaker 4: are saying Republicans have singled out Haitians. And this is

1726
01:31:50,560 --> 01:31:54,960
Speaker 4: an interesting segue because we're just talking about multiculturalism and

1727
01:31:55,200 --> 01:31:58,559
Speaker 4: how wherever you have different people from different backgrounds races,

1728
01:31:58,640 --> 01:32:01,920
Speaker 4: ethnicities put together be some types of discrimination, and the

1729
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:05,080
Speaker 4: goal of the culture should be to minimize that. Has

1730
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:10,120
Speaker 4: there been legitimate racism directed by high profile Republican lawmakers?

1731
01:32:10,160 --> 01:32:13,519
Speaker 4: This is the accusation on the table towards the Haitian

1732
01:32:13,520 --> 01:32:16,479
Speaker 4: community of the United States, and particularly in Springfield, Ohio,

1733
01:32:16,479 --> 01:32:17,639
Speaker 4: in the last couple of weeks.

1734
01:32:18,320 --> 01:32:22,040
Speaker 10: No, absolutely not. I haven't heard it. Everything I've heard

1735
01:32:22,280 --> 01:32:28,360
Speaker 10: has been critical of the fact that we're importing, you know,

1736
01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:32,800
Speaker 10: thousands of people from the Third World who are coming

1737
01:32:32,800 --> 01:32:34,160
Speaker 10: into communities and.

1738
01:32:35,040 --> 01:32:36,680
Speaker 3: Look, America.

1739
01:32:37,880 --> 01:32:41,120
Speaker 10: Nobody thinks that it will benefit America to become more

1740
01:32:41,160 --> 01:32:41,639
Speaker 10: like Haiti.

1741
01:32:41,880 --> 01:32:42,639
Speaker 3: Nobody thinks that.

1742
01:32:44,080 --> 01:32:45,960
Speaker 10: Or I would challenge anyone if they do think that,

1743
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:48,439
Speaker 10: to explain how that's the case, Like, in what way

1744
01:32:48,560 --> 01:32:51,559
Speaker 10: could this country be improved by making it more like Haiti?

1745
01:32:51,600 --> 01:32:53,360
Speaker 10: When you look at Haiti, what part of Haiti are

1746
01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:55,080
Speaker 10: you saying to yourself we need more of that?

1747
01:32:55,520 --> 01:32:55,960
Speaker 4: Beaches?

1748
01:32:57,160 --> 01:32:59,840
Speaker 10: Well, we have more beaches and then too, right, don't

1749
01:32:59,880 --> 01:33:01,400
Speaker 10: we We're much bigger counts.

1750
01:33:01,400 --> 01:33:04,840
Speaker 1: We don't want a marine invasion and occupation of the

1751
01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:10,920
Speaker 1: United States that constantly decapitates governments and takes takes the

1752
01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:13,240
Speaker 1: money out of the country, and yeah, saddles us.

1753
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:16,639
Speaker 3: We don't want the Clinton's debt from a revolution. Yeah right,

1754
01:33:16,760 --> 01:33:17,519
Speaker 3: although I don't. I don't.

1755
01:33:17,560 --> 01:33:19,120
Speaker 1: So you were saying that we wouldn't want to be

1756
01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:23,360
Speaker 1: like basically a colony that the entire West spends two

1757
01:33:23,439 --> 01:33:27,000
Speaker 1: hundred years punishing after the Haitian Revolution.

1758
01:33:27,400 --> 01:33:28,120
Speaker 3: I get that.

1759
01:33:28,560 --> 01:33:30,679
Speaker 10: I understand that, but also at a certain we wouldn't

1760
01:33:30,680 --> 01:33:32,200
Speaker 10: want that. No, yes, we wouldn't want that, But I

1761
01:33:32,200 --> 01:33:35,760
Speaker 10: would also say that that, uh, that's not entirely why

1762
01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:37,280
Speaker 10: Haiti's in the position that it's in. I meane, at

1763
01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:40,759
Speaker 10: a certain point, as a country, you have to stand

1764
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,479
Speaker 10: on your own two feet and take care of yourself.

1765
01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:47,160
Speaker 3: But what point is that. Let's say they they elect Aristete,

1766
01:33:47,160 --> 01:33:49,719
Speaker 3: and we overthrow Aristete, then they elect joven el Mois.

1767
01:33:49,800 --> 01:33:52,280
Speaker 1: Joven El Moy's is assassinated a bunch of a bunch

1768
01:33:52,280 --> 01:33:55,559
Speaker 1: of people with American connections, and then we install in

1769
01:33:55,760 --> 01:34:00,439
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, like the United States installed the prime

1770
01:34:00,479 --> 01:34:04,680
Speaker 1: minister that we just ousted, like so we could say, okay, yeah,

1771
01:34:04,920 --> 01:34:06,639
Speaker 1: you got to get over the you know, two hundred

1772
01:34:06,680 --> 01:34:08,400
Speaker 1: years ago, but like we're still doing it.

1773
01:34:08,760 --> 01:34:11,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, and I'm not in favor of I

1774
01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:14,760
Speaker 10: I'm very non interventionist in my policies, so I'm not

1775
01:34:14,800 --> 01:34:17,400
Speaker 10: in favor of most of the things that we're doing

1776
01:34:17,560 --> 01:34:18,360
Speaker 10: in other countries.

1777
01:34:18,439 --> 01:34:21,040
Speaker 1: We just made the new government in Haiti in a

1778
01:34:21,080 --> 01:34:24,559
Speaker 1: hotel room in Jamaica, and then we insisted that whatever

1779
01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:28,519
Speaker 1: government we made in Jamaica had to allow Kenyan police,

1780
01:34:29,400 --> 01:34:31,840
Speaker 1: Kenyan troops to come in under the flag of the

1781
01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:35,240
Speaker 1: UN in order to go to war with the gangs.

1782
01:34:35,520 --> 01:34:37,600
Speaker 10: Yeah, I'm not Look, I'm not interested in if it

1783
01:34:37,600 --> 01:34:39,040
Speaker 10: were up to me, I'm not interested in doing anything

1784
01:34:39,040 --> 01:34:41,120
Speaker 10: in Haiti like let Haiti be Haiti and take care

1785
01:34:41,120 --> 01:34:44,800
Speaker 10: of That's sort of my whole point here. Let them

1786
01:34:44,800 --> 01:34:46,599
Speaker 10: take care of themselves and their own problems. I'm also

1787
01:34:46,640 --> 01:34:49,479
Speaker 10: not saying that there's like never a scenario where we

1788
01:34:49,640 --> 01:34:51,040
Speaker 10: let someone from Haiti into the country.

1789
01:34:52,000 --> 01:34:54,799
Speaker 3: But it doesn't have to just be about Haiti.

1790
01:34:54,800 --> 01:34:59,240
Speaker 10: But when you're throwing open the gates and just inviting

1791
01:34:59,760 --> 01:35:02,040
Speaker 10: any one in particular, you know.

1792
01:35:02,920 --> 01:35:06,720
Speaker 1: Your assumption there was that it is Haitian people that

1793
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:09,200
Speaker 1: are creating the conditions on Haiti, and then that if

1794
01:35:09,200 --> 01:35:13,680
Speaker 1: the Haitian people come to Springfield, they will recreate the conditions.

1795
01:35:13,800 --> 01:35:15,800
Speaker 1: But I don't think any in Springfield, Whereas what I'm

1796
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:18,160
Speaker 1: saying is that it's actually the US that is.

1797
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:22,280
Speaker 10: I don't think you can entirely like largely, but it's

1798
01:35:22,320 --> 01:35:25,960
Speaker 10: still a country comprised of people, right, but.

1799
01:35:25,960 --> 01:35:28,200
Speaker 3: Without its own autonomy. Okay, but you can't.

1800
01:35:28,280 --> 01:35:30,240
Speaker 10: I don't think you can entirely put it on the

1801
01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:33,720
Speaker 10: United States like Haitian people have nothing to do whatsoever

1802
01:35:33,800 --> 01:35:34,400
Speaker 10: with the state of.

1803
01:35:34,320 --> 01:35:35,519
Speaker 3: Their own country. Nothing.

1804
01:35:35,600 --> 01:35:39,360
Speaker 10: I mean, I think that's a bit absurd. I'm I'm

1805
01:35:39,360 --> 01:35:44,080
Speaker 10: perfectly willing to, as I said, agree that a lot

1806
01:35:44,120 --> 01:35:48,720
Speaker 10: of the United States sort of adventurism and the interventions

1807
01:35:49,200 --> 01:35:51,720
Speaker 10: in other countries has been unwise. And I'd prefer for

1808
01:35:51,760 --> 01:35:53,080
Speaker 10: us to focus on our own country and not try

1809
01:35:53,120 --> 01:35:56,080
Speaker 10: to build governments in other countries. But at the same time,

1810
01:35:57,560 --> 01:36:00,240
Speaker 10: I think that you can't completely absolve the people of

1811
01:36:00,240 --> 01:36:02,240
Speaker 10: any country of the problem. Just like in this country,

1812
01:36:02,360 --> 01:36:05,439
Speaker 10: the problems that we have in our country, we can

1813
01:36:05,479 --> 01:36:08,320
Speaker 10: point to the government, we can point to immigration, we

1814
01:36:08,320 --> 01:36:10,880
Speaker 10: point to all those things, but ultimately, like the people

1815
01:36:10,920 --> 01:36:13,080
Speaker 10: of the country have to be responsible for their own nation.

1816
01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:15,320
Speaker 3: And I say that of all nations.

1817
01:36:17,680 --> 01:36:20,920
Speaker 1: You said earlier that we have less racism here than

1818
01:36:22,520 --> 01:36:25,240
Speaker 1: lots of other countries, which I think is we have

1819
01:36:25,280 --> 01:36:29,200
Speaker 1: their fair point to make. And obviously you would acknowledge

1820
01:36:29,200 --> 01:36:31,479
Speaker 1: that at some point in our history we had lots

1821
01:36:31,479 --> 01:36:32,400
Speaker 1: of racism.

1822
01:36:33,040 --> 01:36:35,839
Speaker 3: Sure, lots of racism, then less racism.

1823
01:36:35,880 --> 01:36:38,679
Speaker 1: Now, so when did we get to a point where

1824
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:41,440
Speaker 1: it wasn't systemic and it was no longer a problem

1825
01:36:41,840 --> 01:36:44,400
Speaker 1: that we as a democratic society need to deal with?

1826
01:36:44,840 --> 01:36:46,599
Speaker 3: Like, what was the moment in your mind?

1827
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:48,160
Speaker 10: Well, I'm not sure that you could point to one

1828
01:36:48,200 --> 01:36:53,000
Speaker 10: exact moment in time when when it goes from a

1829
01:36:53,080 --> 01:36:57,400
Speaker 10: systemic issue to not systemic anymore. But what we know

1830
01:36:57,479 --> 01:37:00,880
Speaker 10: for sure is that right now we are certainly in

1831
01:37:00,920 --> 01:37:03,000
Speaker 10: the moment where it's not systemic.

1832
01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:07,120
Speaker 3: Any time in history, well i'll answer your question.

1833
01:37:07,200 --> 01:37:10,559
Speaker 10: Yeah, any at any point history when you can go

1834
01:37:10,560 --> 01:37:13,000
Speaker 10: back and look at actual laws and policies that were

1835
01:37:13,040 --> 01:37:18,040
Speaker 10: in place that deprived Black Americans or any other group

1836
01:37:18,360 --> 01:37:20,720
Speaker 10: of rights, well, that was a time when you had

1837
01:37:20,720 --> 01:37:25,880
Speaker 10: systemic right and we know that that existed historically. So

1838
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:27,920
Speaker 10: if you wanted to point to an exact moment, I mean,

1839
01:37:28,160 --> 01:37:30,360
Speaker 10: I guess the most obvious moment would be the you know,

1840
01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:36,240
Speaker 10: the Civil Rights Act, But of course these are changes

1841
01:37:36,280 --> 01:37:39,360
Speaker 10: that happen gradually over time, just like with slavery. You know,

1842
01:37:39,439 --> 01:37:42,320
Speaker 10: you can't even with slavery, you can't really People like

1843
01:37:42,320 --> 01:37:44,360
Speaker 10: to point to the Emancipation Proclamation as the moment when

1844
01:37:44,360 --> 01:37:45,960
Speaker 10: slavery was ended. Of course, we know that wasn't when

1845
01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:49,479
Speaker 10: it ended. So we know we don't have slavery anymore.

1846
01:37:50,040 --> 01:37:52,160
Speaker 10: But if you were to ask me, what's the exact

1847
01:37:52,160 --> 01:37:54,679
Speaker 10: moment when slavery stopped, well, it wasn't an exact moment.

1848
01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:59,080
Speaker 10: It was a gradual ending of that horrific institution. But

1849
01:37:59,439 --> 01:38:04,200
Speaker 10: certainly now it doesn't exist anymore in this country anyway.

1850
01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:08,800
Speaker 10: And I'd say the same thing with systemic racism as well,

1851
01:38:08,840 --> 01:38:13,080
Speaker 10: that there's not nobody is creating policies again that are

1852
01:38:13,720 --> 01:38:18,680
Speaker 10: deliberately intended to create disadvantages for.

1853
01:38:20,200 --> 01:38:21,280
Speaker 3: Quote unquote people have.

1854
01:38:21,200 --> 01:38:23,680
Speaker 4: Called I have a question about that. A lot of

1855
01:38:23,680 --> 01:38:26,479
Speaker 4: conservatives will say there is one policy, and this is

1856
01:38:26,840 --> 01:38:30,080
Speaker 4: you know, you're about as anti abortion and prole life

1857
01:38:30,080 --> 01:38:32,320
Speaker 4: as it gets. A lot of conservatives will say a

1858
01:38:32,400 --> 01:38:37,720
Speaker 4: remaining institution of systemic racism is abortion because it disproportionately,

1859
01:38:38,160 --> 01:38:41,439
Speaker 4: as conservatives make this argument, affects black children and black

1860
01:38:41,439 --> 01:38:45,000
Speaker 4: families is that an example of systemic racism or racism period?

1861
01:38:45,560 --> 01:38:48,320
Speaker 10: And I think it's a mistake when conservatives make that point,

1862
01:38:48,320 --> 01:38:50,920
Speaker 10: because I think conservatives are very desperate to be able

1863
01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:52,320
Speaker 10: to do the whole thing where they turn back on

1864
01:38:52,320 --> 01:38:54,400
Speaker 10: Democrats and say the Demons are the real raceist. Yes,

1865
01:38:54,960 --> 01:38:57,200
Speaker 10: And I just think that's a lame move, and you're

1866
01:38:57,200 --> 01:38:59,719
Speaker 10: trying to use the left zone language against it, which

1867
01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:02,839
Speaker 10: I think, I think it doesn't work because you're accepting

1868
01:39:02,880 --> 01:39:05,600
Speaker 10: sort of their premise. So what I'd say about abortion is, no,

1869
01:39:05,640 --> 01:39:10,000
Speaker 10: it's not systemically racist. It does disproportionally impact the black community,

1870
01:39:10,160 --> 01:39:11,160
Speaker 10: no question about it.

1871
01:39:13,120 --> 01:39:15,439
Speaker 3: But does it exist for that really?

1872
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:18,840
Speaker 10: Is planned parentod? Is that why they exist right now?

1873
01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:21,880
Speaker 10: Because they want to kill black babies? No, planned parent

1874
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:23,519
Speaker 10: exists because they want to kill babies and they don't

1875
01:39:23,560 --> 01:39:25,519
Speaker 10: care what color the baby is. They just want the

1876
01:39:25,560 --> 01:39:29,719
Speaker 10: money that comes from it. But it just so happens

1877
01:39:29,880 --> 01:39:32,880
Speaker 10: that that ends up disproportionally impacting the black community. And

1878
01:39:32,920 --> 01:39:34,840
Speaker 10: this goes to the disproportion of impact thing, which I'm

1879
01:39:34,840 --> 01:39:37,000
Speaker 10: glad you brought that up, because that's usually what's used

1880
01:39:37,640 --> 01:39:40,040
Speaker 10: to support the theory of systemic racism, as they say, well,

1881
01:39:40,040 --> 01:39:42,639
Speaker 10: but these policies disproportionately impact certain groups.

1882
01:39:44,040 --> 01:39:46,400
Speaker 3: They might, but that doesn't mean that they're intended to

1883
01:39:46,439 --> 01:39:49,160
Speaker 3: do that. You know, just.

1884
01:39:51,160 --> 01:39:53,800
Speaker 10: A disproportionate number of Black Americans end up in prison,

1885
01:39:53,960 --> 01:39:56,559
Speaker 10: Does that mean that prison that that's why the prison

1886
01:39:56,640 --> 01:40:00,400
Speaker 10: is there to put Black Americans in it? No, the

1887
01:40:00,439 --> 01:40:02,800
Speaker 10: reason why disportionate number of Black Americans un under prison

1888
01:40:03,240 --> 01:40:06,160
Speaker 10: is that, unfortunately, this proportionate number of Black Americans commit

1889
01:40:06,640 --> 01:40:07,240
Speaker 10: violent crime.

1890
01:40:07,800 --> 01:40:09,080
Speaker 3: That's just what the stats show.

1891
01:40:09,120 --> 01:40:11,599
Speaker 1: And so but so, there's an argument that a system

1892
01:40:11,680 --> 01:40:16,280
Speaker 1: is what it does and that claiming otherwise is just

1893
01:40:16,360 --> 01:40:19,640
Speaker 1: kind of hocus pocus, just magic. Like if the system

1894
01:40:19,960 --> 01:40:23,840
Speaker 1: produces a certain result, but you, as an observer of

1895
01:40:23,880 --> 01:40:28,760
Speaker 1: that system, say, well, actually, that's not what the system.

1896
01:40:28,479 --> 01:40:33,040
Speaker 3: Is supposed to do. Those words are just meaningless.

1897
01:40:33,080 --> 01:40:35,479
Speaker 1: What about the system just chews them up and spits

1898
01:40:35,520 --> 01:40:38,559
Speaker 1: them out and produces and continues to produce the result

1899
01:40:38,600 --> 01:40:43,240
Speaker 1: that it produces its like, for instance, doin Jim Crow,

1900
01:40:43,840 --> 01:40:45,720
Speaker 1: you know, pre Civil Rights Act, You've got laws on

1901
01:40:45,760 --> 01:40:49,760
Speaker 1: the books that are systemically racist that allow for you know,

1902
01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:51,679
Speaker 1: straight up racist results.

1903
01:40:52,000 --> 01:40:53,760
Speaker 4: And when it comes to design of the system, was

1904
01:40:53,800 --> 01:40:55,120
Speaker 4: explicitly zion.

1905
01:40:55,000 --> 01:40:59,479
Speaker 1: System is aimed at producing segregated schools and low income

1906
01:40:59,520 --> 01:41:03,960
Speaker 1: household I mean low income neighborhoods that are predominantly or

1907
01:41:04,000 --> 01:41:09,519
Speaker 1: almost exclusively populated by Black Americans. Right, you then pass

1908
01:41:09,640 --> 01:41:13,040
Speaker 1: laws that reform those laws, that make it so that

1909
01:41:13,200 --> 01:41:19,639
Speaker 1: you can't legally do those things anymore. Yet the power

1910
01:41:19,680 --> 01:41:24,519
Speaker 1: structure broadly remains in place, and the results stay the same.

1911
01:41:24,560 --> 01:41:29,280
Speaker 1: You still have, you know, broadly speaking, massive low income

1912
01:41:29,320 --> 01:41:35,000
Speaker 1: areas predominantly populated by black families, and you have continue

1913
01:41:35,040 --> 01:41:40,519
Speaker 1: to have segregated schools when and so a person who

1914
01:41:40,560 --> 01:41:43,920
Speaker 1: was born into this country at like two day, if

1915
01:41:43,920 --> 01:41:47,360
Speaker 1: they're black, they're more likely to grow up in one

1916
01:41:47,400 --> 01:41:50,400
Speaker 1: of those neighborhoods, are more likely to go to terrible

1917
01:41:50,400 --> 01:41:53,920
Speaker 1: schools rather than good schools. They're more likely to end

1918
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:58,120
Speaker 1: up in prison in part of the system. And so

1919
01:41:58,600 --> 01:42:00,439
Speaker 1: you would step back and say, well, the system is

1920
01:42:00,439 --> 01:42:01,400
Speaker 1: still doing what it is.

1921
01:42:02,320 --> 01:42:04,120
Speaker 3: The system never stopped doing it.

1922
01:42:04,160 --> 01:42:06,519
Speaker 1: There was never a day from Monday to Tuesday to

1923
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:09,280
Speaker 1: Wednesday that all of a sudden the system stopped working

1924
01:42:09,280 --> 01:42:11,320
Speaker 1: in the same racist way, which we acknowledge was racist

1925
01:42:11,360 --> 01:42:13,320
Speaker 1: when it was written into the law. Although the system

1926
01:42:14,000 --> 01:42:16,760
Speaker 1: and it's not because we you know, struck through that

1927
01:42:16,800 --> 01:42:17,120
Speaker 1: one line.

1928
01:42:17,280 --> 01:42:21,240
Speaker 10: But if we agree that the you say, the system

1929
01:42:21,280 --> 01:42:26,080
Speaker 10: is what it does, I probably disagree with you on that.

1930
01:42:27,439 --> 01:42:29,160
Speaker 10: I mean, what the system is intended to do is

1931
01:42:29,200 --> 01:42:32,679
Speaker 10: what it certainly matters here, but.

1932
01:42:32,600 --> 01:42:35,639
Speaker 1: Why But what also, like, why would it matter what

1933
01:42:35,760 --> 01:42:39,320
Speaker 1: we intend a system to do, Like because the.

1934
01:42:39,360 --> 01:42:42,160
Speaker 4: System produces a robust Nigerian middle class, like people who

1935
01:42:42,200 --> 01:42:44,240
Speaker 4: come here from Nigeria. Tomsul makes this point, it's a

1936
01:42:44,360 --> 01:42:45,120
Speaker 4: point that's popuable.

1937
01:42:45,200 --> 01:42:47,680
Speaker 3: Then that's a defense of the system because that's what

1938
01:42:47,760 --> 01:42:48,360
Speaker 3: it does.

1939
01:42:48,360 --> 01:42:50,880
Speaker 4: Right, That's what I'm saying. So does that go both ways?

1940
01:42:51,080 --> 01:42:54,080
Speaker 1: No, because the intent of this my point is that

1941
01:42:54,120 --> 01:42:57,960
Speaker 1: the intent whatever you intend a system to do is meaningless.

1942
01:42:58,200 --> 01:43:03,080
Speaker 1: Like if you if you intend for a house to

1943
01:43:03,160 --> 01:43:06,799
Speaker 1: have a roof and a second floor that is sturdy,

1944
01:43:06,920 --> 01:43:09,479
Speaker 1: but when you walk into the second floor you fall

1945
01:43:09,520 --> 01:43:09,840
Speaker 1: through it.

1946
01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:12,120
Speaker 4: But that doesn't reflect on you. But that doesn't reflect

1947
01:43:12,160 --> 01:43:13,560
Speaker 4: on your anti roof sentiments.

1948
01:43:13,760 --> 01:43:15,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and also doesn't matter.

1949
01:43:15,120 --> 01:43:17,880
Speaker 10: And also to use your analogy, if you walk into

1950
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:21,400
Speaker 10: a house and uh, there's a problem in the house,

1951
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:25,360
Speaker 10: you can't automatically assume that it's the fault of whoever

1952
01:43:25,400 --> 01:43:28,320
Speaker 10: built the house. It could be depending on the problem.

1953
01:43:28,320 --> 01:43:30,519
Speaker 10: But you also have to look at who's living in

1954
01:43:30,560 --> 01:43:33,920
Speaker 10: the house, who's supposed to be maintaining the house. And

1955
01:43:34,040 --> 01:43:36,719
Speaker 10: if you're living in a house and you're not taking

1956
01:43:36,760 --> 01:43:39,800
Speaker 10: care of it, and in fact you're mistreating the house

1957
01:43:40,080 --> 01:43:43,360
Speaker 10: and it goes to hell, and then you turn around

1958
01:43:43,560 --> 01:43:45,720
Speaker 10: and blame whoever built the house one hundred years ago, well,

1959
01:43:45,760 --> 01:43:48,240
Speaker 10: I'm going to say, like, well, this is at some

1960
01:43:48,280 --> 01:43:50,080
Speaker 10: point you got to take responsibility for your own house.

1961
01:43:50,120 --> 01:43:53,519
Speaker 10: And so that's that's my point with the black community

1962
01:43:53,520 --> 01:43:56,800
Speaker 10: as it stands right now in America. Yes, as we've

1963
01:43:56,800 --> 01:44:00,360
Speaker 10: already established, there was systemic, actual stomach RaSE against the

1964
01:44:00,360 --> 01:44:03,599
Speaker 10: black community for a long time. It's a terrible evil thing.

1965
01:44:03,600 --> 01:44:05,759
Speaker 10: Everybody agrees on that point. I don't think anyone disagrees

1966
01:44:07,960 --> 01:44:09,880
Speaker 10: that is over now. There is there is, there is

1967
01:44:09,920 --> 01:44:13,639
Speaker 10: no longer a system in place that is designed to

1968
01:44:13,680 --> 01:44:15,320
Speaker 10: deprive Black Americans of rights.

1969
01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:16,800
Speaker 3: I mean, would you agree with that at least? No?

1970
01:44:16,880 --> 01:44:18,840
Speaker 1: I do think it's still designed that way, but it's

1971
01:44:18,880 --> 01:44:22,920
Speaker 1: designed in a way where it can't be litigated because

1972
01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:24,719
Speaker 1: it's not so in law.

1973
01:44:25,200 --> 01:44:25,960
Speaker 3: Okay, but that's so.

1974
01:44:26,040 --> 01:44:28,400
Speaker 10: Can you point to me an exact point of the system,

1975
01:44:28,439 --> 01:44:31,559
Speaker 10: an exact place in the system, a policy that is

1976
01:44:31,720 --> 01:44:35,120
Speaker 10: designed to deprive Black Americans.

1977
01:44:34,640 --> 01:44:35,800
Speaker 3: Of rights, the.

1978
01:44:37,400 --> 01:44:41,880
Speaker 1: Same people that design the system to protect the wealth

1979
01:44:42,000 --> 01:44:45,320
Speaker 1: of the upper class, you know, in the forty you know,

1980
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:48,559
Speaker 1: throughout American history, like continued to be in condition.

1981
01:44:48,680 --> 01:44:49,880
Speaker 3: But now you're talking about class, not race.

1982
01:44:49,920 --> 01:44:52,240
Speaker 1: I'm talking about race, right, But how do you disrupt

1983
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:56,360
Speaker 1: class if you're so segregated by I mean, how do

1984
01:44:56,360 --> 01:44:58,400
Speaker 1: you disrupt race you're just so segregated by class.

1985
01:44:58,520 --> 01:44:59,960
Speaker 10: Well, but I don't think you can bring class into

1986
01:45:00,040 --> 01:45:02,280
Speaker 10: this because I mean, I would agree that there's we

1987
01:45:02,479 --> 01:45:04,439
Speaker 10: could talk about class. We could I agree that there

1988
01:45:04,439 --> 01:45:07,320
Speaker 10: are elites who care about themselves and don't care about

1989
01:45:07,360 --> 01:45:11,240
Speaker 10: the lower class. I would say that those people are

1990
01:45:11,400 --> 01:45:17,240
Speaker 10: are are just as unconcerned with a white person in

1991
01:45:17,320 --> 01:45:19,479
Speaker 10: trailer park in Appalasia as they are unconcerned with the

1992
01:45:19,479 --> 01:45:22,240
Speaker 10: black person in the inner city. You know, because so

1993
01:45:22,280 --> 01:45:24,080
Speaker 10: it is class. We could talk about that. But but my

1994
01:45:24,240 --> 01:45:28,120
Speaker 10: question was where, Because we talked about the system, it's

1995
01:45:28,120 --> 01:45:31,439
Speaker 10: a broad concept here, So let's narrow it down. Let's

1996
01:45:31,479 --> 01:45:34,320
Speaker 10: find a piece of the system that we can point

1997
01:45:34,320 --> 01:45:37,600
Speaker 10: to and say, well, this is this is designed to

1998
01:45:37,680 --> 01:45:38,360
Speaker 10: hurt black people.

1999
01:45:38,439 --> 01:45:42,240
Speaker 1: Okay, So if you go to Georgia, for instance, after

2000
01:45:42,960 --> 01:45:51,800
Speaker 1: they implemented desegregate school desegregation, what they started doing is saying, oh, okay, well,

2001
01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:55,600
Speaker 1: we can't legally keep black people out of our neighborhoods

2002
01:45:55,680 --> 01:45:58,680
Speaker 1: or out of our schools, but what we can do

2003
01:45:59,400 --> 01:46:04,080
Speaker 1: is we can secede from our neighborhoods. You've been to

2004
01:46:04,120 --> 01:46:08,559
Speaker 1: the Atlanta suburbs like every four fortunately, like every four

2005
01:46:09,680 --> 01:46:12,920
Speaker 1: like every four blocks. For for a long time, you

2006
01:46:13,000 --> 01:46:16,759
Speaker 1: had like new school districts, and they would be drawn.

2007
01:46:18,200 --> 01:46:20,760
Speaker 1: They would be basically jerrymandered, like they would know where

2008
01:46:20,760 --> 01:46:23,840
Speaker 1: the white people were, and they would jerrymander the school

2009
01:46:23,840 --> 01:46:28,200
Speaker 1: district so that only white people would be a part

2010
01:46:28,240 --> 01:46:31,559
Speaker 1: of this degregation. No, no, this is what they're doing now,

2011
01:46:32,439 --> 01:46:35,320
Speaker 1: like this is up to up to today. Like so

2012
01:46:35,400 --> 01:46:38,439
Speaker 1: what they're doing is they're saying, Okay, these are the

2013
01:46:38,479 --> 01:46:43,000
Speaker 1: new laws in place. However, we like our system of

2014
01:46:43,000 --> 01:46:45,760
Speaker 1: segregation and racism that we have here, So how do

2015
01:46:45,880 --> 01:46:50,040
Speaker 1: we hire the best lawyers or show that? But it's

2016
01:46:50,040 --> 01:46:50,720
Speaker 1: also about race.

2017
01:46:50,760 --> 01:46:52,160
Speaker 4: Well, but what I'm saying, do you think primarily in

2018
01:46:52,200 --> 01:46:54,160
Speaker 4: the minds of the designers of the system, are they

2019
01:46:54,200 --> 01:46:57,080
Speaker 4: are they actually discriminating intentionally on a class.

2020
01:46:56,800 --> 01:46:59,559
Speaker 3: Basis pre race pretty race driven?

2021
01:46:59,720 --> 01:47:00,000
Speaker 12: I don't.

2022
01:47:00,160 --> 01:47:03,120
Speaker 10: I don't think that there's any evidence in it. I think,

2023
01:47:03,600 --> 01:47:06,479
Speaker 10: like an example you give, it's class. It's people wanting

2024
01:47:06,520 --> 01:47:12,800
Speaker 10: to avoid crime written impoverished areas, not you know, maybe

2025
01:47:13,200 --> 01:47:16,280
Speaker 10: someone doesn't want to send their kids to school in

2026
01:47:16,360 --> 01:47:18,320
Speaker 10: a place that's high crime. There's gonna be a lot

2027
01:47:18,320 --> 01:47:21,080
Speaker 10: of delinquency and everything in the school system. I don't

2028
01:47:21,080 --> 01:47:23,479
Speaker 10: think it's because the kids are black. It's just because

2029
01:47:23,479 --> 01:47:26,439
Speaker 10: of that. And also the other thing is when we

2030
01:47:26,479 --> 01:47:29,000
Speaker 10: talk about but at what point it's like when we

2031
01:47:29,040 --> 01:47:32,479
Speaker 10: talk about school districts or the way communities are set up.

2032
01:47:32,640 --> 01:47:35,320
Speaker 3: Here's another point that rarely comes up. Pretty simple.

2033
01:47:35,960 --> 01:47:39,400
Speaker 10: You can move right, so you can always move. I mean,

2034
01:47:39,439 --> 01:47:42,639
Speaker 10: if you live in a community where you're claiming it's

2035
01:47:42,680 --> 01:47:46,960
Speaker 10: been set up systemically to disadvantage it it I don't

2036
01:47:46,960 --> 01:47:49,320
Speaker 10: buy that, But if I did, I would say, well,

2037
01:47:49,360 --> 01:47:51,479
Speaker 10: you should probably move from that community. I mean, you

2038
01:47:51,520 --> 01:47:54,639
Speaker 10: can go somewhere else. It's not there's no law saying

2039
01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:56,760
Speaker 10: you can't. And if there was, I mean, if there

2040
01:47:56,760 --> 01:47:57,639
Speaker 10: was a law saying.

2041
01:47:57,520 --> 01:48:01,080
Speaker 3: Some hoa situations will like act try to but they're

2042
01:48:01,080 --> 01:48:02,559
Speaker 3: not going to say you can't move here if you're black.

2043
01:48:02,600 --> 01:48:06,200
Speaker 4: It's also why a lot of black community groups support

2044
01:48:06,280 --> 01:48:09,679
Speaker 4: voucher systems to allow like work with conservatives on voucher

2045
01:48:09,680 --> 01:48:11,880
Speaker 4: systems to allow kids to get to different schools.

2046
01:48:12,520 --> 01:48:16,800
Speaker 1: So so when you see stats to say, like a

2047
01:48:16,840 --> 01:48:20,919
Speaker 1: black home a black homeowner who's trying to get a mortgage,

2048
01:48:21,320 --> 01:48:25,759
Speaker 1: who has a higher credit score and higher income gets

2049
01:48:25,760 --> 01:48:30,240
Speaker 1: a higher interest rate from the average bank than a

2050
01:48:30,280 --> 01:48:33,120
Speaker 1: white applicant. A bunch of these studies have been done

2051
01:48:33,120 --> 01:48:35,160
Speaker 1: where they'll they'll put in like a black sounding name

2052
01:48:36,200 --> 01:48:42,120
Speaker 1: and higher credit scores, higher income, you know better, better

2053
01:48:42,400 --> 01:48:46,080
Speaker 1: candidates on paper other than their name, and they get

2054
01:48:46,080 --> 01:48:49,160
Speaker 1: a overall like there have been so many studies that

2055
01:48:49,200 --> 01:48:51,760
Speaker 1: have replicated this. They get a higher interest rate, which

2056
01:48:51,760 --> 01:48:54,320
Speaker 1: means their cost of borrowing hire, means the mortgage is higher,

2057
01:48:54,400 --> 01:48:57,920
Speaker 1: which means you have to have that much more money

2058
01:48:57,920 --> 01:49:01,120
Speaker 1: to move into the neighborhood that you'rre timeless. Systemically, it

2059
01:49:02,560 --> 01:49:04,160
Speaker 1: doesn't say, well, if you're black, you can't live here,

2060
01:49:04,160 --> 01:49:06,160
Speaker 1: But systemically what it does is it makes it easier

2061
01:49:06,160 --> 01:49:08,840
Speaker 1: for white people to move into these wealthier neighborhoods. Harder

2062
01:49:08,840 --> 01:49:11,840
Speaker 1: for black people to move into those neighborhoods. And that's

2063
01:49:12,080 --> 01:49:15,120
Speaker 1: before you even get to the wealth effect Jim Crow

2064
01:49:15,800 --> 01:49:19,240
Speaker 1: only ended recently, which means that if you look at

2065
01:49:19,280 --> 01:49:21,760
Speaker 1: the kind of savings rates and the inheritance rates for

2066
01:49:22,000 --> 01:49:26,400
Speaker 1: the average black family, it's close to nil, especially after

2067
01:49:26,439 --> 01:49:29,000
Speaker 1: the subprime mortgage wipe out of two thousand and eight,

2068
01:49:29,280 --> 01:49:31,920
Speaker 1: compared to white families which can go to mom and

2069
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:35,040
Speaker 1: dad and grandma grandpa and say, can you help put

2070
01:49:35,080 --> 01:49:36,080
Speaker 1: my kids in private school?

2071
01:49:36,080 --> 01:49:37,439
Speaker 3: Can you pay the down payment?

2072
01:49:37,479 --> 01:49:39,160
Speaker 1: You know, twenty percent is an awful lot for this

2073
01:49:39,200 --> 01:49:43,080
Speaker 1: mortgage generational wealth. Yeah, So you combine the fact that

2074
01:49:43,120 --> 01:49:46,360
Speaker 1: they get they have to pay higher interest rates with

2075
01:49:46,439 --> 01:49:48,439
Speaker 1: the fact that there's lack of generational wealth.

2076
01:49:49,080 --> 01:49:50,719
Speaker 3: That's that to me is systemic.

2077
01:49:50,760 --> 01:49:53,879
Speaker 1: But I'm curious specifically on the interest rate question, what's

2078
01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:57,559
Speaker 1: going on there and should that be a problem now

2079
01:49:57,760 --> 01:50:01,439
Speaker 1: we as a democratic society should address, like why are

2080
01:50:01,920 --> 01:50:06,679
Speaker 1: black loan applicants paying higher mortgage interest rates across the board?

2081
01:50:07,040 --> 01:50:10,080
Speaker 1: And that is replicated across the economy.

2082
01:50:10,120 --> 01:50:11,800
Speaker 10: Okay, I'd have to look at the studies you're talking about.

2083
01:50:11,840 --> 01:50:13,479
Speaker 10: You say that they've been replicated at time and time again,

2084
01:50:13,520 --> 01:50:16,120
Speaker 10: there's no issues with the studies and there's no issues methodolo.

2085
01:50:16,200 --> 01:50:18,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure that people could pick some of the studies apart,

2086
01:50:18,320 --> 01:50:20,479
Speaker 1: but they it's well accepted.

2087
01:50:21,200 --> 01:50:24,479
Speaker 10: Yeah, I'd have to know who is accepted by exactly.

2088
01:50:24,520 --> 01:50:29,000
Speaker 10: But so for the sake of argument, let's say that

2089
01:50:29,000 --> 01:50:33,200
Speaker 10: that those studies are totally legit. I would still go

2090
01:50:33,320 --> 01:50:35,920
Speaker 10: back to a class issue on that. And the reason

2091
01:50:36,000 --> 01:50:39,120
Speaker 10: is that, look, banks, but the white can we explain

2092
01:50:40,000 --> 01:50:44,360
Speaker 10: like banks care about the money. That's all they care about.

2093
01:50:44,439 --> 01:50:47,280
Speaker 10: They don't care about These banks are not being run

2094
01:50:47,320 --> 01:50:48,960
Speaker 10: by people who are saying, you know, we got to

2095
01:50:49,040 --> 01:50:52,040
Speaker 10: keep black people poor. I don't care about that. I

2096
01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:54,519
Speaker 10: don't think they care about anybody. They care about the money.

2097
01:50:54,600 --> 01:50:59,960
Speaker 10: And so if that's happening, they're making stereotypical assumptions, class

2098
01:51:00,080 --> 01:51:05,679
Speaker 10: based assumptions that I believe they would probably also make

2099
01:51:05,840 --> 01:51:09,640
Speaker 10: if they if if somehow they got they had the

2100
01:51:09,680 --> 01:51:13,800
Speaker 10: impression that this was say a white quote unquote white

2101
01:51:13,880 --> 01:51:18,200
Speaker 10: trash as they're often called from the trailer park.

2102
01:51:18,439 --> 01:51:20,479
Speaker 3: You know, if if I think.

2103
01:51:20,400 --> 01:51:24,600
Speaker 10: That the banks would have the same sort of skeptical,

2104
01:51:25,160 --> 01:51:28,840
Speaker 10: discriminatory attitude in that case as they would to someone

2105
01:51:28,840 --> 01:51:31,000
Speaker 10: who they're assuming is from the inner city.

2106
01:51:31,080 --> 01:51:35,639
Speaker 1: Let's say, right, but so the other. The other word

2107
01:51:35,640 --> 01:51:37,719
Speaker 1: for that would be implicit bias. So let's say the banks,

2108
01:51:37,800 --> 01:51:40,680
Speaker 1: we have a heart, but let's say that. Okay, well

2109
01:51:40,680 --> 01:51:41,960
Speaker 1: we got to wrap in a second. But let's say

2110
01:51:42,000 --> 01:51:45,479
Speaker 1: the banks you only do care about money. That's reasonable

2111
01:51:45,479 --> 01:51:49,320
Speaker 1: thing to say. So then what could explain why they

2112
01:51:49,360 --> 01:51:52,439
Speaker 1: would treat them treat the two differently would have to

2113
01:51:52,479 --> 01:51:54,600
Speaker 1: be like you're saying, but what you're saying is there

2114
01:51:54,680 --> 01:51:57,680
Speaker 1: might be some implicit bias toward if they could identify

2115
01:51:58,080 --> 01:52:00,840
Speaker 1: some poor white guy, which goes to the point though,

2116
01:52:01,560 --> 01:52:03,880
Speaker 1: of how it's easier for poor whites, which I was one,

2117
01:52:04,000 --> 01:52:06,000
Speaker 1: used to be one of, but it was easier for.

2118
01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:07,880
Speaker 3: Me to migrate out. My head is Ryan. Great.

2119
01:52:07,880 --> 01:52:09,360
Speaker 1: I don't even think it's you can't even tell that

2120
01:52:09,439 --> 01:52:12,280
Speaker 1: I was white trash, right. I mean you can if

2121
01:52:12,280 --> 01:52:14,920
Speaker 1: you like, you know me pretty well, but you can't

2122
01:52:14,920 --> 01:52:16,320
Speaker 1: tell on a resume or an applicant.

2123
01:52:16,360 --> 01:52:18,639
Speaker 10: This is a record, Yes, you were in a tie

2124
01:52:18,640 --> 01:52:20,800
Speaker 10: and everything there you go could have fooled me.

2125
01:52:21,800 --> 01:52:23,200
Speaker 3: What I would even call it implicit bias.

2126
01:52:23,200 --> 01:52:27,240
Speaker 10: I think it's just like banks, Uh, they are biased

2127
01:52:27,280 --> 01:52:28,720
Speaker 10: against people they don't think that.

2128
01:52:28,800 --> 01:52:30,680
Speaker 3: They don't think we'll pay their mortgage.

2129
01:52:30,240 --> 01:52:32,799
Speaker 1: Basically right, and so why don't they think a person

2130
01:52:32,840 --> 01:52:34,880
Speaker 1: with the black name will pay their mortgage?

2131
01:52:35,520 --> 01:52:37,240
Speaker 3: Because I think in that case, spite a high credit

2132
01:52:37,280 --> 01:52:38,799
Speaker 3: score and a highest income, if.

2133
01:52:38,600 --> 01:52:41,880
Speaker 10: That is true, then they're making assumptions about they're making

2134
01:52:41,920 --> 01:52:44,160
Speaker 10: class based assumption. This is someone for this, a lower

2135
01:52:44,240 --> 01:52:47,000
Speaker 10: income person coming from a low income neighborhood, even if

2136
01:52:47,040 --> 01:52:49,559
Speaker 10: their current income is you know, the same as uh

2137
01:52:49,640 --> 01:52:51,479
Speaker 10: that that's the background, and.

2138
01:52:51,400 --> 01:52:55,919
Speaker 3: So people sounds like those people face a systemic pub well.

2139
01:52:56,200 --> 01:52:58,639
Speaker 10: Class based But that's that's what I'm talking about.

2140
01:52:59,280 --> 01:53:02,280
Speaker 4: You're getting told, yeah, we're gonna be in the year. Matt,

2141
01:53:02,360 --> 01:53:04,720
Speaker 4: thank you so much. Is a fascinating conversation. I really

2142
01:53:04,800 --> 01:53:05,400
Speaker 4: enjoyed the movie.

2143
01:53:05,479 --> 01:53:08,760
Speaker 3: Ryan, wou'd you think it's funny. I'll acknowledge that the

2144
01:53:08,840 --> 01:53:11,120
Speaker 3: movie is funny. Then these guys are cloud on the poster.

2145
01:53:13,200 --> 01:53:14,120
Speaker 3: Guys are total clowns.

2146
01:53:14,160 --> 01:53:15,720
Speaker 4: Matt Welsh, thank you so much for joining us.

2147
01:53:15,880 --> 01:53:18,440
Speaker 3: Thank you appreciate it well, Ryan, I actually.

2148
01:53:18,160 --> 01:53:19,800
Speaker 4: Thought that was really interesting. We had a lot of

2149
01:53:19,880 --> 01:53:23,040
Speaker 4: questions that we couldn't quite get to because that exchange.

2150
01:53:23,080 --> 01:53:24,760
Speaker 4: We wanted to sort of let it play out, and

2151
01:53:24,840 --> 01:53:26,760
Speaker 4: I think the reason for that, and we wanted to

2152
01:53:26,800 --> 01:53:30,200
Speaker 4: ask about anti semitism and abortion, and Matt's actually coming

2153
01:53:30,240 --> 01:53:33,000
Speaker 4: on my Unheard show tomorrow, so I'll probably try to

2154
01:53:33,320 --> 01:53:35,479
Speaker 4: I'll even take questions from Ryan Graham if you have

2155
01:53:35,520 --> 01:53:37,680
Speaker 4: remaining ones. But I actually think that exchange that you

2156
01:53:37,760 --> 01:53:42,080
Speaker 4: guys were having was so rare and well worth playing

2157
01:53:42,120 --> 01:53:45,120
Speaker 4: out because it is incredibly rare that two people engage

2158
01:53:45,160 --> 01:53:47,600
Speaker 4: on good faith on what the question or what the

2159
01:53:47,640 --> 01:53:52,160
Speaker 4: sort of semantic debate over systemic racism is, and that

2160
01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:53,760
Speaker 4: is at the heart of so many disagreements.

2161
01:53:54,040 --> 01:53:56,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I just think if you're a black

2162
01:53:56,040 --> 01:54:01,519
Speaker 1: person born in this country, you face systemic difficulties that

2163
01:54:01,640 --> 01:54:02,799
Speaker 1: a white person doesn't.

2164
01:54:04,000 --> 01:54:06,639
Speaker 4: I think that's true. Yeah, I think that's true. You'll

2165
01:54:06,640 --> 01:54:08,479
Speaker 4: probably get him to agree with that to some extent too.

2166
01:54:08,520 --> 01:54:10,120
Speaker 4: It's just I think it's a question over the scale.

2167
01:54:11,040 --> 01:54:12,720
Speaker 4: At the end of the day, we disagree over like

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01:54:12,760 --> 01:54:14,400
Speaker 4: maybe the scale or the scope.

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01:54:14,560 --> 01:54:20,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Supers.

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Speaker 4: I thought that was even going to be like, I

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01:54:21,160 --> 01:54:23,800
Speaker 4: don't know that. I thought that was just really even

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01:54:23,960 --> 01:54:27,519
Speaker 4: listening to your rebuttals was I think so helpful. And

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01:54:27,600 --> 01:54:29,519
Speaker 4: I hope everybody in the audience enjoyed it as well.

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Speaker 3: Hope so too.

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01:54:30,720 --> 01:54:32,360
Speaker 4: All right, well, thank you so much for joining us

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01:54:32,360 --> 01:54:33,800
Speaker 4: for this week's edition of.

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Speaker 3: Counterpoints Friday Show. Right with that as the Friday show.

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01:54:37,200 --> 01:54:39,960
Speaker 4: Right, we did a we wanted to get this out today.

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01:54:40,080 --> 01:54:42,320
Speaker 4: We didn't want to wait until Friday to get this

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01:54:42,960 --> 01:54:46,640
Speaker 4: interview out, so we just attached it to the regular show.

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01:54:46,720 --> 01:54:49,280
Speaker 4: So we will be back here next Wednesday, of course,

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01:54:49,520 --> 01:54:52,200
Speaker 4: with more Counterpoints. Subscribe over at breaking points dot com

2183
01:54:52,760 --> 01:54:54,880
Speaker 4: you can get early editions of the show. You get

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01:54:54,880 --> 01:54:57,080
Speaker 4: the full edition of the show straight to your inbox early,

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01:54:57,200 --> 01:54:58,040
Speaker 4: so it's a great deal.

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Speaker 3: Who wouldn't want that? See you guys next week.