1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Cable news is ripping us apart, dividing the nation, making 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: it impossible to function as a society and to know 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: what is true and what is false. The good news 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: is that they're failing and they know it. That is 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: why we're building something new. Be part of creating a new, better, healthier, 6 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: and more trustworthy mainstream by becoming a Breaking Points Premium 7 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: member today at breakingpoints dot com. Your hard earned money 8 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: is going to help us build for the midterms and 9 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: the upcoming presidential election so we can provide unparalleled coverage 10 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: of what is sure to be one of the most 11 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for? 12 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: Go to Breakingpoints dot com to help us out. All right, everybody? 13 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: Time now for our weekly partnership segment with the Lever. 14 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: This week we have journalist Matthew Cunningham Cook who has 15 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: a deep dive into the roots of the Jackson, Mississippi 16 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: water crisis. Let's go ahead and put this up on 17 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: the screen here and great to see Matthew. By the way, 18 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: thanks for having me on, Kristal always always. So let's 19 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: take a look at this tear sheet. We say Wall 20 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: Straight is behind Jackson's water crisis. Why am I not 21 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: surprised a major credit rating agency jacked up interest rates 22 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,559 Speaker 1: in Jackson, Mississippi, curtailing infrastructure investments in the years leading 23 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: up to the city's recent disaster. But you, Matthew and 24 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: your colleague here, Ricardo Gomez, you all go even deeper 25 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: than the past couple of years into the real origins 26 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: of this crist And I'm really glad you did, because 27 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: you know, we covered back when Jackson had that terrible 28 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 1: winter storm, and there were massive issues then, and there 29 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: was a massive awareness and understanding that this could be 30 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,639 Speaker 1: a continuing, ongoing problem, and yet of course the problems 31 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 1: don't ultimately get fixed. And then fast forward and we're 32 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: covering once again. Oh my god, they don't have water. 33 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: The water's not safe to drink. There's you know, boil 34 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: notice for weeks and weeks on end. So I would 35 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: love for you to take us back to the beginning 36 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: of how we ended up in this place where the 37 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: infrastructure is so degraded, so dilapidated, and yet residents are 38 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: still getting sky high water bills in spite of the 39 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: fact that the service is so poor. Yeah, So I'm 40 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: the real beginning is the EPA like they did in Flint, 41 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: fell down on the job, and we're not monitoring the 42 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: extreme levels of industrial waste dumping into Jackson's water system. 43 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: So that's kind of that's the reason why this system 44 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: is so degraded is mass industrial dumping that was not 45 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: regulated by the EPA. But there's some more recent stuff. 46 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: So in twenty thirteen, prior to the election of the 47 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: current mayor's father, who was also a progressive, the city, 48 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: under the leadership of a mayor who didn't have the 49 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: tightest ethical practices, decided to automate the city's water billing 50 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: system and issued a huge bond of ninety million dollars 51 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: to finance those upgrades. Turned out it was a total 52 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: scam with semens, and the semens had to pay a 53 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: huge settlement back to the city, but it never addressed 54 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: kind of the core issues with this initial bond, which 55 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: was the interest rates were very high, as high as 56 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: six point seventy five percent. The mayor's father, who was 57 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: also named Choque la Mumba, died shortly after taking office 58 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen and was replaced by another mayor with 59 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: significantly compromised ethics. At Tony Arbor, who was investigated by 60 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: the FBI, and he refused to do anything to address 61 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: the issues with the Semens contract or with the bond. 62 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: Choque la Mumba, the younger, when he was running in 63 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, said, you know, very cogently, we have a 64 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: major crisis with our water system. It needs to be 65 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: addressed stacked. I am going to issue a new bond 66 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: that will allow us to take the needed necessary upgrades. 67 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: And because I have tighter ethical standards, you can be 68 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: assured Jackson voters that it's going to actually happen. Gotcha. 69 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: Right after he takes office, Moody's the main bond rating agency, 70 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: Jack's down the bond credit rating of the City of 71 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: Jackson into junk status. That means you can't refinance this 72 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: big twenty thirteen bond for a scam, and you can't, 73 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 1: and any new bond is going to have very high 74 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: interest rates. So he was never able to do it. 75 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: And that is really kind of the route at the 76 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: local level. And what makes it so outrageous, though, is 77 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: that Moody is in the other bond ratings agencies do 78 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: not rate municipalities based on the likelihood of default, because 79 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: if they did then almost and they've said this themselves, 80 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: that almost all municipalities would be rated very highly, either 81 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: triple A or double A, very very very highly. And 82 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: instead they use all these other determinations to determine the 83 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: credit worthiness of a given city, including wealth and poverty. 84 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: And that's really what happened here is and again Moody's 85 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: was explicit. You know, we're we're shoving this city's bond 86 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: rating into junk. We're decapping this new progressive mayor because 87 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: this city has a high level of poverty. And that 88 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: is just so different from how Moody's treats Well Street 89 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: and the corporate market. So even recently, you know, I mean, 90 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: in the lead up to COVID, they were rating tranches 91 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: of commercial mortgage backed securities at triple A, the highest 92 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: rating ever, right before there's a world historic global pandemic 93 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: that sends millions of people out of offices to work 94 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: from home. And here's the core problem is that corporate 95 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: and Wall Street don't have taxing power. Municipalities do have 96 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: unlimited taxing power. There are no consequences, meaningful consequences for 97 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: Wall Street or corporate executives who default on their debt. 98 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: Politicians who default on their debt face very real consequences. 99 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: You've seen I think four governors of Puerto Rico since 100 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: they defaulted on their debt. You saw the former, you know, 101 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: you've seen many politicians from Detroit sent to prison. And 102 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: those are really the only two major places where you've 103 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: seen debt default recently. The last time Jackson defaulted on 104 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: its debt was during World War Two. So it's really 105 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: it's really an outrageous double standard that ends up driving 106 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: up the cost of public services for ordinary Americans, especially 107 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: Americans who live in high poverty areas, while Wall Street 108 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: faces no meaningful accountability whatsoever. And where is the state 109 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: of Mississippi and the federal government where are they wherein 110 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: all of this is happening. Do they have money or 111 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: tools at their disposal that could be used to aid 112 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: the city that seems to have been forgotten by everybody? Yeah, 113 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: I mean this was you know, So, I mean I 114 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: followed the Jackson stuff very closely for the last few years, 115 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: and it was always very clear the Mississippi legislature is 116 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: dominated by a tea party kind of elite, and the 117 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: governor as well comes out of that and they're totally 118 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: on interest did and help in the city of Jackson. 119 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: And this is something we've seen time and again. There's 120 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: that at the state level, and then at the federal 121 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: level you've seen, I believe, a close to eighty percent 122 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: decrease in federal government investments and water infrastructure since the 123 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: mid seventies. So those are real consequences. But in terms 124 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: of you know, just in the last few years, you know, 125 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: how could this city addressed its bond infrastructure, addressed its 126 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: infrastructure crisis. It would have happened had Moodies and the 127 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: other bond rating agencies not kneecapped Marilyn Mumba. And that's 128 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: exactly what happened. Wow. And so what is the status 129 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: of the water system in Jackson, Mississippi? Today? The last 130 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: I had seen, but this has been a couple of 131 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: weeks ago, they were still under There was water flowing, 132 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: but it was still under a boil advisory. The water 133 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: safe to drink today it seems like no, I mean, 134 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: it's certainly not safe for women, are small children, you know. 135 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: So there's disputes, you know, between the city and the 136 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: state over this issue. And yeah, you know, this is 137 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: a major problem, and unfortunately, Congressional Democrats are not proposing 138 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,959 Speaker 1: to address the full scale of the crisis. So Benny Thompson, 139 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: the congressman from Jackson, has proposed two hundred million dollars 140 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: when Marilyn Mumba has said that they're probably going to 141 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: need closer to a billion dollars to address this problem. 142 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: So it's it's it's an ongoing problem. It's an ongoing crisis. 143 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: The federal government absolutely needs to step in right away 144 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: with the correct amount of money. Now that's the only 145 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: thing that can be done. But we know, you know, 146 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: we have pending water crises all around the country, and 147 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: Moody's decision to rate municipalities so much more harshly than 148 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: any other section of the debt market really is going 149 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: to drive additional water crises exactly like Jackson in the 150 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: years and decades to come. It is so important to 151 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: understand this. I mean, we just had news coming out 152 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: still out of Flint about now charges were dropped against 153 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: some of the officials who could have been held liable here. 154 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: There was news about I believe it was Chicago with 155 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: high lead levels. I mean, this is really an issue 156 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: across the country, and not just in urban areas either. 157 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: Are there a lot of rural parts of the country 158 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: that suffer with degraded water infrastructure. I know a lot 159 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: of places in West Virginia and eastern Kentucky that we've 160 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: done stories on as well. It is a real sign 161 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: of societal decay, decline, collapse, whatever you want to call it, 162 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: that in such a wealthy society, we have so many 163 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: places where people can't even take for granted the very 164 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: basics of having clean drinking water. That's absolutely right. Thank 165 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: you so much for digging into this. This reporting is 166 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: crucial and helping us understand the mechanics being used by 167 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: Wall Street to make things so difficult for these cities 168 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: as well. Matthew, great to see you. Thank you so much. 169 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: Christo really appreciate it. Hey everyone, I'm Ken Clippenstegin with 170 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: breaking points to the Intercept edition. I'm joined today for 171 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 1: a second time with Ray Gerar, Advocacy Director of Democracy 172 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 1: in the Arab World. Now, or Don for short, we're 173 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: going to be talking to you about the Biden administration 174 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: and Mohammed bin Salman, the leader of Saudi Arabia. At 175 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: the same time that President Biden is giving all the 176 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: soaring rhetoric about the situation in Ukraine, the unjust war 177 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: invasion by Russia. There's also a sort of corollary story 178 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: to that's getting much less attention, which is our relationship 179 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: to one of the most despotic regimes on Earth. And 180 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: not just that. This week is the anniversary week of 181 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: the brutal murder and dismemberment of journalist Jamal Kashoki. Kashogi's 182 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: death led to the founding of Down and they are 183 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: currently suing MBS with a civil case against him for 184 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: information about that the US government has with regard to 185 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: the murder of Kashugi and in addition to that civil 186 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: liabilities for his widow. And so could you talk to 187 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: us a bit, not just about the suit, but what 188 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: the Biden administration did, not just this week of the anniversary, 189 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: but on the day anniversary of Kushogi's murder. It's good 190 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: to be on the show again. I think the Biden 191 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: administration has been making one mistake after the other when 192 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 1: it comes to Jamal Kashugi. Jamal Kashugi is a case 193 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: study of the failure of this administration to change course 194 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: on our foreign policy. So what we saw happened this 195 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: weekend around the fourth anniversary of the murder of Jamal 196 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: Kashugi is not exceptional. It's actually another example of making 197 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: wrong decisions. So what happened is we have a lawsuit 198 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: against BS and many of his team, and so there 199 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: be a government officials who participated in planning and conducting 200 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: executing the murder of Jamarca Shugi. And the law suit 201 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: got to a point where the judge requested from the 202 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: US government to give an opinion whether or not NBS 203 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: has a foreign immunity. So, rather than declaring that they're 204 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: not going to get involved in the issue, the Biden 205 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: administration requested from the judge an extension to weigh in. 206 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: And that request for an extension happened literally around the 207 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: weekend of his fourth university So the bid the administation 208 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: once again chooses they get out of their way. They 209 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: had the option to tell the judge, we're not going 210 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: to weigh in on this. This is a civil lawsuit. 211 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: You forget it out, judge. But what the bid the 212 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: Admnstation said, we are going to weigh in. Give us 213 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: four to five more days to give our opinion on 214 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: whether or not NBS deserves immunity, which, by the way, 215 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: what a weasly way out of this. You know, when 216 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: I was talking to people that follow this case very closely, 217 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: they told me, they said, I expect that they're going 218 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: to ask for an extension because that neither grants MBS 219 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: precisely what he wants, nor does it you know, really 220 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: take an antagonistic position to him. And you know, there's 221 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: a very oil rich country in the context of you know, 222 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: gas prices being what they are, and the administration is 223 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: very sensitive to that. But when you do something like this, 224 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: it's kind of like they're trying to have the best 225 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: of both worlds. It seems like, you know, I mean, 226 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: I am a pragmatist, and I know that this administration 227 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: does not have the political will to make grant statements 228 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: about Jamal Kashugi. But the easy way for the administration 229 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: to get out of this would have been saying nothing. 230 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: If they just missed the deadline, which was last week, 231 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: without saying yes, NBS deserves immunity or no, MBS does 232 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: not deserve immunity, that would have given them an easy 233 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: way out. But they put themselves in a war situation 234 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: by requesting an extension, because now the implication is that 235 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: they will give an opinion, so they put themselves in 236 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: a place where they are required now to give an 237 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: opinion on whether it's a yes or no answer, and 238 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: of course that the opinion is not automatically adopted by 239 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: the judge, but it has its weight with the decision, 240 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: suggests that the use of government is considering it, of course, 241 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: and I think like the fact that the administration is 242 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: not willing to stay quiet, to stay out of this, 243 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: and we're not expecting them necessarily to come to our 244 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: rescue and to help with the effort to hold MBS 245 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: and his cronies accountable. But we were expecting them to 246 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: at least stay quiet, and they failed even with that 247 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: very low bar. They felt. What's incredible to me is 248 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: what is this administration getting out of this? Because I 249 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: could go through through any number of cases, takes ay 250 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: just the last few days when Opek has announced that 251 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: they're going to decrease oil production, which is going to 252 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: have the effect of driving up gas prices and the 253 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: price of everything, because oil figures into every aspect of 254 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: our economy, how things are shipped, how they're manufactured, since 255 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: you know, we have a fossil fuel based the economic system. 256 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: So not only are they saying they're going to increase production. 257 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: Saturabia also announced that they are going to continue their 258 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: relationship renew their relationship with Russia as part of OPEK, 259 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: which wasn't something that was always the case, and that 260 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: is just a slap in the face of this administration, 261 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: to say nothing of the fact of his Biden's visit, 262 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: which itself was always up in the air. No one 263 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: was really sure, you know, what or when that was 264 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: going to happen. And you know, I could go through 265 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: any number of embarrassing kind of details about how that unfolded, 266 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: for example, by the President of the United States being 267 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: greeted by a provincial governor in Saturabia, which my Saudi 268 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: friends were like, oh my god, that is like a 269 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: middle finger in diplomatic terms to them, immediately leaking the 270 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: contents of the meeting and claiming that Biden never brought 271 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: up Kushoki's death. It's just one, you know, humiliation after another. 272 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: Is what are they getting out of this? I don't 273 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: understand nothing. They're getting nothing. And what we're told, the 274 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: human rights community in Washington, d C. And the non 275 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 1: profit community, we're told that we're too naive. Two, we're 276 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 1: too principled, yeah, and the purist in our demands for accountability. 277 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 1: So before the visit happened, we were told that President 278 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: Biden has to go because in real life, we have 279 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: to make some concessions to keep the oil flowing and 280 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: bring the oil prices down. But the oil is not 281 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: flowing exactly. That's what we said as well, like many 282 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: many use organizations before President by the went, we said 283 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: they're not going to comply even with your you know, 284 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: real politique demands of oil, that there are no signs 285 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: of the going to do this, and obviously they did not. 286 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: So the trip was not only a humiliating trip, not 287 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: only a trip that gave away the United States political 288 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: capital and moral capital. At the same time that they are, 289 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, trying to mount a case against Russia's conduct 290 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: and talking to freedom and democracy versus autocracy, which what 291 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 1: is a better embodiment of autocracy than a you know, 292 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: government where there is a literal king, not figurative They 293 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: behead people for crimes like sorcery and witchcraft. How are 294 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: we supposed to take seriously anything they have to say 295 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: about right? I mean, yeah, The point that I was 296 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: saying is that they not only lost this moral argument, 297 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: which is the US has some sort of a moral 298 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: high grounds to criticize Russia, or criticize Cuba, or criticized 299 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: China for human rights violations. But also nothing came out 300 00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: of the trip. The oil production did not change, loss 301 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: agreement with Russia, did not change, the ratric from the 302 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: Saudi government did not change. Actually, the soud the government 303 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: led crackdown on human rights defenders immediately after President by 304 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: Then left. They have not changed. It's a really important 305 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: aspect to this. This is a lot bigger than just Koshogi, 306 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: although that's an important case. This sends a signal to 307 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: autocrats like him about what they can get away with. 308 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: Kashoki was a US resident. So this is saying the 309 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: US government, you know, to whatever extent, is not going 310 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: to bring the hammer down if a you know, foreign 311 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: autocrat does something to its residents. That's something really important 312 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: for Americans to understand that they have a stake in 313 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: this beyond you know, abstract conceptions of human rights. That 314 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: is the message that was transmitted by this administration loud 315 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: and clear that the United States government will not hold 316 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: other governments accountable even if they kill a US resident, 317 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: A prominent one who's well, even if they go that 318 00:19:55,080 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: far in case, there are some geopolitical calculations that the 319 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: US will deem in its interest to keep that relationship going. 320 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: So the US has like other calculations about Soudabia oil 321 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: and the relationship with Soudabian Israel and the relationship between 322 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: soud Aabi and Iran, and they're doing those kind of calculations. 323 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: But meanwhile, you will have a massive scandalous violation of 324 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: human rights, such as the mother of Jamaica Shugi go 325 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: completely swept under the rug because of these geopolitical calculations 326 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: in the context of a young kind of boy king 327 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: who's about my age, and is you know, in charge 328 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: of one of the wealthiest states on the planet, and 329 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: is you know, getting signals from the bid administration that 330 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: you know what, we're not going to do anything. I'm thinking, 331 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: what is a young new leader going to messages and 332 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 1: take for that We're going to be seeing this guy 333 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: for you know, conceivably the next thirty or forty years. Yeah, 334 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: And this guy is being taught taught by the US 335 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: and Europe and international allies that he can get away 336 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: with murder. Literally, that's what he's being taught before he 337 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: became king. The stunt that he pulled last week when 338 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: they made an announcement that he is the new Prime 339 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: Minister of Zaudi Arabia is nothing short than a political 340 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: stunt to evade accountability. So what he's trying to play 341 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: with his legal team is that he's trying to claim 342 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: head of state community by making himself the prime minister. 343 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: And so this is what the law fairers around that 344 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: Biden administration was asked to weigh in on. Okay, do 345 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: you here's the thing. So it's being covered as so, oh, 346 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: the king is now the prime minister, so we can't 347 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: do anything about him in court, But that's not really 348 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: how it works. So they can claim that, but the 349 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: US government, the Justice Department, of the State Department, and 350 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: the National Security counts have to come together and say, okay, 351 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: we recognize him. Is that that's making things extremely awkward 352 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: for this administration because they don't want to make that determination, 353 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: but they also don't want to go against this petro state. 354 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: That's right, And like the stunt is very it's it's 355 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: like a joke. The timing of it is very transparent 356 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: that he just made himself the prime minister literally the 357 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: weak of the deadline of making a determination in the lawsuit, 358 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: and his attorney filed emotion immediately after, requesting that the 359 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: judge take into account the fact that MBS has become 360 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: prime minister. So the causal connection is very very transparent. 361 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: I mean, like the timing and the motion. You know, 362 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: this is not something happening in a in a vacuum. 363 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: But legally, you know, it's not a slam dunk for 364 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: their site because there is one head of state in 365 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, and that one head of state in the 366 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: kingdom is the king, so the father is still the 367 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: head of state. And there are very strong legal arguments 368 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: that when you try to obtain political immunity for the 369 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: sake of obtaining political immunity, like what he's doing now 370 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: that it's in valid, it's obviously happening to evade responsibility, 371 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: recuse himself from accountability, and they judge should not take 372 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 1: that into account. We are going to make these arguments 373 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: whether or not the Biden administration comes back to say 374 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: we recognize him as a head of state, the second 375 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: head of state, which is not a thing. But we 376 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: are going to make these arguments. But you're right, Like, 377 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: now this has the legal case has become a political circus, 378 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 1: And the reason why it became a political circus is 379 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: the actions of this administration. This administration could have chosen 380 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: a path to not get involved in the legal lawsuit 381 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: by just staying out of it. They didn't have to 382 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: say yes, they didn't have to say no, they didn't 383 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: have to respond. They could have just missed the deadline, 384 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: stayed quiet, and stayed out of it. But now the 385 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: Biden administration has chosen actively to become a party to 386 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: a lawsuit that might lead to exonerating MBS. So that's 387 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: that's kind of what I want to end down here 388 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,479 Speaker 1: is what do you expect to happen when the deadline, 389 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,239 Speaker 1: which I believe is what forty five days or so, 390 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 1: that's right, rolls around and then they have to make 391 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 1: a decision. Do you think the Biden administration will end 392 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: up making a filing or you know, request that the 393 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: judge behave in a certain way, or will will at 394 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: that point they just wash their hands of it. I mean, 395 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: I think they put themselves in a very bad spot. Now, 396 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: it's very difficult for them to not give an opinion. 397 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: I'm expecting bad news. Looking at the pattern of what 398 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: this administration has done in the last couple of years, 399 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: I don't expect them to come up with a grand 400 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: gesture and you know, speak truth to powar and take 401 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 1: the side of the of the you know, oppressed. I 402 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: don't see it happening. So I'm expecting bad news. But 403 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: you know, we're going to do our best to explain 404 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: to the judge or point of view. And I think 405 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,719 Speaker 1: most legal scholars in the US understand that our position 406 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: is stronger legally, but of course politics will play play 407 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: its all as well. So freedom against autocracy some conditions 408 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 1: may apply. It depends on what hemisphere in the world 409 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: that we're talking about this right, thanks for joining me 410 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: once again. This is ken Clip and signed with Breaking 411 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: Points the Intercept edition. I'll ask it some pieces to you, 412 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: Donald Banger, seed oil disrespector I've been listening to you 413 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: guys since I heard Sager on Paul Saladino's podcast. I'm 414 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: just curious if you Sager consider yourself a seed oil 415 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: disrespect I love this question. So for the uninitiated, there 416 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: is a huge debate online. I need to get in 417 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: on this debate. My name is James Lay, Welcome to 418 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: another segment of fifty one to forty nine on Breaking Points, 419 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: where we dive into different topics at the intersection of business, 420 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: politics and society. And today we're going to try to 421 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: answer this question, is there something about the food that 422 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: we're eating that is causing us to be fatter and 423 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: sicker than we've ever been in history. We'll start with 424 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: an interesting graph, the one that you see on your 425 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: screen from a paper published earlier this year in the 426 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, a peer reviewed primary research 427 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: journal in nutrition and dietetics, showing trends in US energy intake. 428 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: If you look at the blue and orange line, which 429 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: represents energy available and energy consumed over the last twenty years, 430 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: our caloric intate has pretty much stayed the same, around 431 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: twenty two hundred calories a day. Yet for some reason, 432 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: the obesity rate the red line is continued to skyrocket 433 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 1: from about thirty percent in two thousand to forty three 434 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: percent in twenty eighteen. So, according to the study, Americans 435 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: on average have been taking in roughly the same amount 436 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: of calories, but obesity rates are continuing to explode. So 437 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: something is going on that's destroying our metabolic health, and 438 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: I think there are probably a number of different contributors, 439 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: like eating too much sugar and processed foods. But today 440 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 1: we're going to focus on one potential contributor that is 441 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,719 Speaker 1: perhaps a bit more hidden, but just as prevalent in 442 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: our diet and one that has been hotly debated online 443 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: in recent months and years, and that is the prevalence 444 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: of seed oils in our diets. First off, what is 445 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: a seed oil. It's a subset of vegetable oils that 446 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: are derived from seeds of crops. Canola oil, sunflower oil, 447 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: corn oil, grape seed oil, soybean oiled, just to name 448 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: a few. My guess is that you have at least 449 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: one of these in your kitchen that you cook with. 450 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: But they are everywhere. Mozola corn, vegetable corn, and sunflower oil. 451 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: Low cost vegetable oil is in everything from packaged foods 452 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: to restaurants and kitchens across the world. Vegetable oils, canola oil, 453 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: vegetable oil, canola oil. As consumption of vegetable oils exploded, 454 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: breeds of obesity and diabetes happened to explode with it. 455 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: Two important things to point out. One, it's very important 456 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: to make a distinction between correlation and causation. We have 457 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: to be careful there. And two who seeing a montage 458 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: like that makes me wonder how vegetable oils came to 459 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: replace animal fat in our diet. This is from an 460 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: article in the American Conservative Quote. Indeed, vegetable oils rose 461 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: to popularity in large part due to a marketing campaign 462 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: by Procter and Gamble that framed these oils as a 463 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: health food. Beginning with Ivy soap, the entrepreneurial brothers found 464 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: ways to produce a plethora of househood staples for sheep 465 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 1: by replacing animal fats with partially hydrogenated vegetable oils to 466 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: earn a profit during the economic recession of the eighteen seventies. 467 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: So this, I think was a good opportunity to point 468 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: out that in many instances you can find these underlying 469 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: economic drivers and changes in public health guidance. In this case, 470 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: a certain company would most certainly benefit almost in perpetuity 471 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: from the public acceptance of a particular new product that 472 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: they sell. So they'll fund certain nonprofit organizations and academic 473 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: institutions to conduct studies on their behalf to convince people 474 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: that their new product is better, better for you than 475 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: what's already existing on the market. Those institutions that helped 476 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: them out also gain more prominence as a result. It's 477 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: certainly an interesting ecosystem, this relationship between economics and science. 478 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: I want to read to you an excerpt from a 479 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal article entitled the Questionable Link between saturated 480 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: fat and heart disease. Quote. Butter and lard had long 481 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: been staples of the American pantry until Chrisco, introduced in 482 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: nineteen eleven, became the first vegetable based fat to win 483 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,719 Speaker 1: wide acceptance in US kitchens. Then came margarins made from 484 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: vegetable oil, and then just played vegetable oil in bottles. 485 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: All these got a boost from the American Heart Association, 486 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: which Procter and Gamble, the maker of cryscal oil coincidentally 487 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: helped launch as a national organization. In nineteen forty eight, 488 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: p ANDNG made the AHAD beneficiary of the popular Walkingman 489 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: radio contest, which the company sponsored. The show raised one 490 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: point seven million dollars for the group and transformed it, 491 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: according to the AHA's of Fish history, from a small, 492 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: underfunded professional society into the powerhouse that it remains today. 493 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: After the AHA advised the public to eat less saturated 494 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: fat and switch to vegetable oils for a quote unquote 495 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: healthy heart. In nineteen sixty one, Americans change their diets. 496 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: Now these oils represent seven to eight percent of all 497 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: calories in our diet, up from nearly zero in nineteen hundred, 498 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: the biggest increase in consumption of any type of food 499 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: over the past century. Okay, so there's a little bit 500 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: of the history correct or incorrect. There was certainly some 501 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: collaboration between corporations and the scientific community to convince Americans 502 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: that vegetable oil is better for you than animal fat. 503 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: So now that we understand that piece of history, let's 504 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about why doctors today are concerned 505 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: about vegetable oil being a regular part of our diet. 506 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: Average Americans today are even five to six tablespoons of 507 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: vegetable oils per day. That's around seven hundred calories of 508 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: oil filled with polyunsaturated fat. It's almost impossible to get 509 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: this amount naturally. There's so little oil per ear of 510 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: corn that it takes ninety eight years or twelve thousand 511 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: calories of corn to get you five tablespoons of corn oil. 512 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: So a long industrial process is dedicated to ripping oil 513 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: out of these tiny seeds. As mentioned earlier, polyunsaturated vegetable 514 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: fats oxidize very easily. Oxidize simply means to react with oxygen. 515 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: This is how metals rust and this is why meat 516 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: that you leave out turns brown after a while. Oxidation 517 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: changes the structure and properties of fats. For the worst, 518 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: Heat is a great way to oxidize fats, and vegetable 519 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: oil is repeatedly heated long before it ever arrives in 520 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: a kitchen. There are many steps to create edible oil, 521 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: and several of them involve very high heat. Vegetable oils 522 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: also oxidize while sitting in your body, creating toxic oxidation 523 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: products like an aldehyde called four for HNE is actually 524 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: considered to be the most toxic aldehyde, and this compound 525 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: has been associated with aging, heart disease, diabetes, and Alzheimer's 526 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: Neuroscientists Testsimoia Yamashima has done plenty of research on vegetable 527 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: oils and for HNE. He's published multiple papers on the 528 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: damaging effects of this compound and why people need to 529 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: avoid vegetable oils because they oxidize into for HNE. In 530 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: our bodies, polyunsaturated fats, oxidation, all the hides for HNE. 531 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: It's all very technical, but essentially, some experts are claiming 532 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: that the manufacturing process of these seed oils makes the 533 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: substance more or less a toxin that can harm our 534 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: bodies and lead to illnesses like diabetes, heart disease, obesity, 535 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: and many others if we consume it regularly. But with 536 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: that being said, these claims aren't conclusive. Like we talked 537 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: about earlier, correlation is not causation. Right. You'll find some 538 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: articles out there like this one from Consumer Reports. The 539 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: headline reads, do seed oils make you sick? Critics say 540 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: they raise your risk for weight gain, heart issues, and more, 541 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: But the science doesn't support those claims. Right. This isn't 542 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: going to be the first time and it won't be 543 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: the last time scientific studies come to differing conclusion. Science 544 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: is just confusing. We have to think about and consider 545 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: so many things like which research group conducted this study, 546 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: who funded the study, how were the trials designed, was 547 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: it peer reviewed? And so many other variables. The truth 548 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: is based on all of my research so far on 549 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: this topic. These trials are just too short. The proof 550 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: this is an excerpt from a nineteen sixty nine clinical 551 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: trial studying the effects of eating unsaturated fat quote. As 552 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: indicated in Table twenty nine and discussed in some detail above, 553 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: the excess mortality in non athoscleretic categories was not sufficiently 554 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: impressive to justify the conclusion that harmful effects had been demonstrated. Nonetheless, 555 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: this small excess non atheroscleratic mortality in the late years 556 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: of the study raises the very important and difficult question 557 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: of whether future clinical trials of diets rich in unsaturated 558 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: fat must be planned for periods well in excess of 559 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: eight years, rather than the five year periods that have 560 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: been the usual goal. Okay, so the situation is we 561 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: don't really know for sure whether seed oils can be 562 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,240 Speaker 1: linked to obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and many other ailments. 563 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: And my opinion is obviously that while the relationship between 564 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: diseases like obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and eating vegetab oil 565 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,959 Speaker 1: is at this point at best correlational and not causational, 566 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: we also cannot deny that our diet has changed tremendously 567 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: in the last half century, even Asian countries are getting fatter, 568 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: which we all think of them as being much more healthy. 569 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: Countries like Japan, China, and India all have recent documented 570 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: surges in obesity rates because they too have increasingly adopted 571 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: more Western food habits, like eating more sugar, which we 572 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: know is bad for you, and also eating more processed foods, 573 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,320 Speaker 1: which all contain vegetable oil. Look, I think the causes 574 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: for something like obesities obviously a multifaceted issue. Vegetable oil 575 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: is perhaps just one small component of why we're getting 576 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: fatter and sicker. We'll have to wait for better designed, 577 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: longer clinical trials, but in the meantime, I don't think 578 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: we could talk about this topic and not mention the 579 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: overall structure of food and drug regulation. The Food and 580 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: Drug Administration the FDA, is responsible for assuring that foods 581 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: sold in the United States are safe, wholesome, and properly labeled. 582 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: But at the same time, a not insignificant portion of 583 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 1: the FDA is funded by big pharma. According to their website, 584 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: fifty four percent that's three point three billion dollars of 585 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 1: their funding comes from the federal government, but the other 586 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: forty six percent that's two point eight billion dollars, comes 587 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: from Big pharma visa v industry user fees. And if 588 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: big Pharma's profit engine is fueled by the existence of 589 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 1: sick patients, wouldn't it be great for them? If say, 590 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: half or two thirds or whatever the obesity number is 591 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: today of adults in America. We're sick. Here's the headline 592 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: for you. Buy Eli lillystock. It's obesity drug will be 593 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: a blockbuster, analyst says. So here's the deal. I can't 594 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: sit here in good conscience and say that there is 595 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: some kind of global conspiracy of food and pharmaceutical executives 596 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: and regulators and dark rooms devising ways to make people sick. 597 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,799 Speaker 1: But what I can say is that there is a 598 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: certain economic benefit of normalizing obesity, or convincing us to 599 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: eat foods that sound healthy rather than to eat foods 600 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: that are actually healthy. Anyway, those are just my thoughts 601 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: about seed oils. What are yours? Please share them with 602 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: us in the common section below. I hope you found 603 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 1: this segment to be helpful and informative. I actually have 604 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: another segment on the food in this shy about the 605 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: effects of fiber in our diet on my YouTube channel, 606 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: So I would encourage you to go ahead and check 607 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: that out. Subscribe to my channel fifty one forty nine 608 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: with James Lee. The link will be in the description below. 609 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for tuning into breaking points, and 610 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: as always, I appreciate your time today