Speaker 1: That is the sound of a fake fireplace. But I
Speaker 1: sometimes play on my real iPhone when I really can't sleep.
Speaker 1: As a slumberer, I would give my performance a sea.
Speaker 1: I sometimes have trouble falling asleep, and I almost always
Speaker 1: have trouble staying down in my apartment. I've hung blackout drapes,
Speaker 1: stocked the pantry with melatonin, and have tried every variety
Speaker 1: of self hypnosis trying to force quit consciousness. When I'm
Speaker 1: on tour, I'll collect all of the hotel pillows and
Speaker 1: build a pyramid of them on my face, trying to
Speaker 1: block out whatever it is it is keeping me awake
Speaker 1: at five am. This is deeply human. I'm Dessa, and
Speaker 1: if you can hear the sound of my voice, then
Speaker 1: you are awake. And I hope that's on purpose, that
Speaker 1: you're not just whiling away some exasperated minutes in the darkness,
Speaker 1: the dreaded morning bird song wooming every nearer, trying to
Speaker 1: coax your rescue dog of a brain to do the
Speaker 1: reasonable thing and come light down for a while. The
Speaker 1: question of those angst written hours, and of this program
Speaker 1: is why can't I sleep? We often hear that screens
Speaker 1: and stress are to blame. But how much of our
Speaker 1: insomnia is really a product of the modern lifestyle. How
Speaker 1: much and how well to humans sleep? And why does
Speaker 1: so many of us struggle with sleeplessness. Let's begin with
Speaker 1: a little science. Let's talk body clocks. I work very
Speaker 1: closely with blind veterans UK and these extraordinary individuals who
Speaker 1: have lost their eyes as a result of combat or disease.
Speaker 1: They're essentially time blind. Not only have they lost their
Speaker 1: sense of sight, but they've also lost their sense of
Speaker 1: time because the eye isn't able to detect the light
Speaker 1: dark cycle and set the internal master clock within the brain.
Speaker 1: That is Russell Foster, director of the Sleep and Circadian
Speaker 1: Neuroscience Institute at the University of Oxford, and that term circadian.
Speaker 1: It's the external light dark cycle, particularly at dawn and dusk,
Speaker 1: that is detected by specialized receptors within the eye, which
Speaker 1: then set the master clock within the brain, and that
Speaker 1: allows us to be beautifully attuned and aligned to the
Speaker 1: external world. Does our body know already that the day
Speaker 1: is twenty four hours long or does it learn that
Speaker 1: when we arrive on the planet. This is what's I
Speaker 1: think so extraordinary, because the internal clock is a subcellular
Speaker 1: molecular clock. So we could take almost any cell in
Speaker 1: the body, put it in a dish and monitor its activity,
Speaker 1: and it would show a near not exactly, but a
Speaker 1: near twenty four oscillation. Russell is something of a sleep evangelist,
Speaker 1: very pro sleep, and he's enthusiastic in describing the manifold
Speaker 1: functions and benefits of getting a full night of it.
Speaker 1: It's memory, consolidation, the processing of information. Some really important
Speaker 1: data that's emerged recently has been the clearance of toxins
Speaker 1: and particularly some misfolded proteins the plaques which have been
Speaker 1: associated with the development of Alzheimer's. Sleep also plays a
Speaker 1: role in keeping the immune system healthy. Studies have emerged
Speaker 1: in the last few years showing that if you are
Speaker 1: tired or sleep deprived prior to or immediately following an
Speaker 1: inoculation for a vaccine, then your antibody response is actually
Speaker 1: reduced if you're chronically tired. Russell thinks that sleep is
Speaker 1: well slept on. Modern society doesn't value or prioritize it
Speaker 1: as it should. We have become industrial creatures in the
Speaker 1: past what two hundred years, and most rapidly since the
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, with a massive commercialization of cheap light at
Speaker 1: night for electric light, we've invaded the night, and in
Speaker 1: the process we've abandoned sleep. So we're fighting against millions
Speaker 1: and certainly hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary biology,
Speaker 1: which is embraced sleep. And it's really interesting to think
Speaker 1: how sleep was considered in the medieval parade. Historical records
Speaker 1: suggest that in many parts of the medieval world, a
Speaker 1: segmented pattern of sleep was the norm. People essentially slept
Speaker 1: in two shifts. The first would last for a couple
Speaker 1: of hours, and then you'd get up and maybe do
Speaker 1: some work, or eat, or drink or pray, have sex,
Speaker 1: visit with the neighbors or whatever. And in English, this
Speaker 1: period of the night was sometimes called the watch. Then
Speaker 1: you'd go back to bed for a second longer sleep
Speaker 1: till morning. Historically, sleep has been prized, says Russell. In
Speaker 1: the Elizabethan era, people were practically writing love poems about it.
Speaker 1: I just think of Shakespeare the honey heavy dew of slumber, Sleep, sleep,
Speaker 1: nature's softness, Have thy forsaken thee We intuitively seemed to
Speaker 1: embrace sleep. But wait a minute, Wait a minute, because
Speaker 1: I mean Shakespeare, hold On, Macbeth is an insomniac, right,
Speaker 1: his life is a sleepwalker. Falstaff has sleep apnea. The
Speaker 1: guy with the best take on on sleep as Hamlet,
Speaker 1: as he's comtemplating suicide like everybody wants it and nobody's
Speaker 1: getting it. It seems like that was true even in
Speaker 1: Shakespeare's time. Absolutely, but they realized that if they weren't
Speaker 1: getting it, they were in trouble. And now we actively
Speaker 1: fight against it. At least in Shakespeare's time, the insomniacs
Speaker 1: had the sense to lament what they were missing, whereas
Speaker 1: now we might wear a sleepless night is a badge
Speaker 1: of honor, proof positive that we stay grinding, and everybody
Speaker 1: from Martha Stewart to Loewayne brags about how a few
Speaker 1: hours they spend asleep. Okay, but let's pause on the
Speaker 1: historical and cultural analysis for a second. Let's turn to Moody,
Speaker 1: our sheet, a real life insomniac. If I were to say, hey, Moody,
Speaker 1: what's your sleep life? Like? What are you say to me?
Speaker 1: I'd really just like burst into tears. I have a toddler,
Speaker 1: I have anxiety, and we've just moved, and my sleep
Speaker 1: pattern is a feeling afraid in my bed is definitely
Speaker 1: something that is familiar to me these days. Is it
Speaker 1: like essentially a thresholding thing that It's like all of
Speaker 1: the ghosts of my errors, concerns, and fears haunt me
Speaker 1: around the clock, but I'm distracted from them in the
Speaker 1: daytime hours, whereas they have top billing. At night, when
Speaker 1: everything is dark and quiet, there are no other stimuli.
Speaker 1: There are no distractions, or no people to keep alive,
Speaker 1: or dogs to feed or phone calls. You're really alone
Speaker 1: with your thoughts, and for me, that kind of amplifies
Speaker 1: anything that's going on in my head. I'd say at
Speaker 1: night anxiety is worse, which exacerbates sleep issues for sure.
Speaker 1: But Moody's perspective on insomnia is informed by a lot
Speaker 1: more than just personal experience. I'm a historian of the
Speaker 1: ancient Middle East, ancient Assyria and Babylonia and the other
Speaker 1: civilizations that occupied what we call ancient Mesopotamia, the land
Speaker 1: between the rivers Tigris and Euphrates, which is now where
Speaker 1: Iraq and Syria are. Did people suffer sleeplessness in the
Speaker 1: same way, as near as you can tell, I think
Speaker 1: it's hard to say for sure, but I do think
Speaker 1: there are lots of common denominators in the kind of
Speaker 1: contexts for sleeplessness, like feeling anxious or feeling depressed, or
Speaker 1: experiencing other elements of mental distress. That link between anxiety
Speaker 1: and sleep problems is worth underlining. The sleep Foundation in
Speaker 1: the US notes the possibility of a vicious cycle. It's
Speaker 1: hard to fall asleep if you're anxious, and then being
Speaker 1: tired just increases the next day's anxiety. But how exactly
Speaker 1: does Moody know about the complaints of people who did
Speaker 1: their sleeping thousands of years ago? As it turns out,
Speaker 1: she's got firsthand accounts ancient medical texts written in terra
Speaker 1: cotta colored clay in a language called Acadian. Day to day,
Speaker 1: I'm looking at someone's drawing of one of these objects.
Speaker 1: But when I get to actually go to a museum
Speaker 1: and look at one of these texts, it's a clay manuscript,
Speaker 1: so it's a clay tablet. Some of them are sort
Speaker 1: of the size of an iPhone, but the medical texts
Speaker 1: are usually a little bit bigger, like a very geometric
Speaker 1: looking writing system. Acadian is kind of like the great
Speaker 1: great grand dad sort of grand aunt of Arabic, Hebrew,
Speaker 1: Modern Assyrian, Aramaic, other Semitic language family groups. Can you
Speaker 1: read Acadian? I can, and I love it. It's such
Speaker 1: a beautiful language. An enormous number of these primary texts
Speaker 1: have survived for thousands of years, so you've got a
Speaker 1: real portal into the daily lives of people whose stories
Speaker 1: otherwise might have been lost to history. The quite famous
Speaker 1: library of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh was set on fire in
Speaker 1: the ancient world as part of a sacking of the city,
Speaker 1: and that bizarrely perhaps preserved all the tablets perfectly. An
Speaker 1: ancient Mesopotamia as now, people might suffer insomnia for a
Speaker 1: variety of reasons. Somebody might complain of a bodily ailment
Speaker 1: that's keeping them awaken night. Yeah, so there's a description
Speaker 1: of the person. My spleen hurts and I can't sleep. Um,
Speaker 1: where is my spleen? I don't know where. I don't
Speaker 1: know what where not a clue, or there might be stressed,
Speaker 1: a condition which seems to have an etymological connection to
Speaker 1: insomnia in the Akkadian language, so delipped too. It's a
Speaker 1: noun that means sleeplessness or can sometimes mean just being
Speaker 1: troubled in some way. What are the odds that we
Speaker 1: can get delipped to trending on Twitter? I would say
Speaker 1: pretty high considering stuff going on in the world, or
Speaker 1: trouble sleeping might have been a symptom of a larger issue,
Speaker 1: a cluster of complaints associated with a serious ailment. The
Speaker 1: Assyrians didn't have a sense of journey is pathogenic vectors
Speaker 1: for them. Sickness was often understood as the product of witchcraft.
Speaker 1: You got sick because somebody put a spell on you.
Speaker 1: What we call anti witchcraft texts basically descriptions of medical
Speaker 1: experiences caused by witchcraft, and then the corresponding rituals or
Speaker 1: incantations and medical prescriptions to deal with those issues. There's
Speaker 1: a particular text that Moody thinks links insomnia with heartbreak,
Speaker 1: which is an association that will probably be familiar to
Speaker 1: anybody who has stayed up late at night scrolling the
Speaker 1: social media account of your ex guys new girl. The
Speaker 1: treatment involves the patient reciting like a prayer incantation addressed
Speaker 1: to Ishtar, the goddess of love and war and ancient Mesopotamiam,
Speaker 1: and in that he says and it is a heat.
Speaker 1: I am tired, I am exhausted, I am ill, I
Speaker 1: am vexed, I am sleepless, I am scared. That sounds
Speaker 1: like a I don't know, it sounds like a mash
Speaker 1: about a new Phoebe Bridgers record. Like that sounds like
Speaker 1: the hook you know, super relatable. Ah aheah, I am
Speaker 1: I am, I am see science. Okay, big shout out
Speaker 1: here to Andy Thompson, musical genius for that bit of
Speaker 1: bittersweet guitar on short notice. Oh. Now, as you may
Speaker 1: already know, the consequences of not getting enough sleep can
Speaker 1: be pretty ugly. Let's go back to Professor Russell. There's
Speaker 1: now a very important link between chronic sleep deprivation and cancer.
Speaker 1: It's a global impact on health. Lack of sleep in
Speaker 1: the long term can result in a big list of
Speaker 1: garbage outcomes for both mind and body. Fluctuation in moods,
Speaker 1: increased irritability, anxiety, loss of empathy. We failed to pick
Speaker 1: up those social signals from friends and colleagues. One very
Speaker 1: important factor, of course, is risk taking an impulsivity. Cognitive
Speaker 1: impairment due to sleep deprivation has made history and some
Speaker 1: of our most memorable disasters. Think of the famous images
Speaker 1: from January when the US launched the Challenger Space Shuttle.
Speaker 1: We have a report from Leaply Dynamic confter that the
Speaker 1: vehicle has exploded. By Director confirmed that we are looking
Speaker 1: at checking with the recovery forces to see what can
Speaker 1: be done. At this point, the Challenger Space Shuttle disaster
Speaker 1: was a failure to appreciate consequences, and that's really very
Speaker 1: clear as a result of relatively short amounts of sleep disruption.
Speaker 1: An investigation was launched to try to understand the cause
Speaker 1: of the explosion, and a report from the Human Factors
Speaker 1: Subcommittee listed severe sleep deprivation of NASA managers as a
Speaker 1: contributing factor. And in your own life, you've probably noticed
Speaker 1: that being super tired makes you less effective at whatever
Speaker 1: it is you're trying to do. I suck when I'm tired.
Speaker 1: I really suck. I'm very sensitive. But would you get
Speaker 1: in the color and drive? I know, I'm a touring musician, right,
Speaker 1: that's my my night job, I guess. And in the
Speaker 1: beginning of my career, the way that we used to
Speaker 1: treat night drives was super cavalier. Super cavalier, right. Everyone
Speaker 1: was worried about had you had too much to drink,
Speaker 1: but nobody was worried about how exhausted are you? And
Speaker 1: then I think collectively a lot of people, at least
Speaker 1: in my community learned because we were terrified of the
Speaker 1: Stories of flipped van's night drives really scare me. I've
Speaker 1: definitely been in a vehicle where somebody has drifted off
Speaker 1: and the car has drifted onto the rumble strip. Because
Speaker 1: the thing is, when you really need sleep, you can't
Speaker 1: resist it through sheer force of will, Like physically, you
Speaker 1: cannot stop yourself from nodding off. Yes, a micro sleep
Speaker 1: is this sort of uncontrollable falling asleep so you can
Speaker 1: actually be driving. There are these overwhelming, uncontrollable falling asleep
Speaker 1: episodes because you're chronically tired, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: have experienced these micro sleeps. Figures shared by the CDC
Speaker 1: report that one adults drivers in the US say that
Speaker 1: they've fallen asleep while driving in the past thirty days,
Speaker 1: and drowsy driving contributes to over a hundred thousand accidents
Speaker 1: annually in the US. Being chronically tired can be particularly
Speaker 1: hasitous for people who work long hours or late into
Speaker 1: the night. Think of the insane schedules of medical professionals.
Speaker 1: Well tired nurses and doctors do not perform the same
Speaker 1: way that well rested nurses and doctors do. The amount
Speaker 1: of time on the night shift can have a big
Speaker 1: effect upon accident rates and harm to patients. If sleep
Speaker 1: is so important, then why aren't we valuing it? Why
Speaker 1: is low Wayne writing a song called no Sleep? Also
Speaker 1: incidentally the titles of songs by a bunch of other rappers.
Speaker 1: And Martha Stewart is bragging about running on four hours
Speaker 1: a night. I think he goes back to a rather
Speaker 1: puritan time when work was was virtuous, and therefore, because
Speaker 1: when you're sleep, you can't work, sleep must be bad.
Speaker 1: In her book Insomnia, a Luned Summers, Bremner notes that
Speaker 1: Dutch Calvinists demanded that sleep be indulged in only in moderation,
Speaker 1: and I quote English preachers of the seventeenth century made
Speaker 1: sleep into the equivalent of moral disorder, which is heavy.
Speaker 1: So let's go someplace untouched by Puritanism to see how
Speaker 1: humans sleep there. I've actually spent extended field work in
Speaker 1: multiple sites, probably close to a year in Bolivia with
Speaker 1: the chimane, maybe about three or four months with the
Speaker 1: san people in in the Kalahari also sometimes called the bushman,
Speaker 1: and more recently, I've spent maybe about three or four
Speaker 1: months with the Hadza in Tanzania, who are also hunter gatherers.
Speaker 1: That is. Gandhi as an anthropologist who studies the sleep
Speaker 1: habits of people who are not concerned with calvinism or
Speaker 1: screen time or corporate burnout. Gandhi conducts his research by
Speaker 1: asking a lot of questions, how tired were you when
Speaker 1: you went to bed, do you have any dreams? Did
Speaker 1: you wake up during the night? And he asks study
Speaker 1: participants to wear an accelerometer, a device kind of like
Speaker 1: a fitbit that records their patterns of physical activity. These
Speaker 1: are populations where people don't have money, they don't have
Speaker 1: indoor plumbing. Most of them today live in relative isolation,
Speaker 1: and they certainly don't have a nine to five work schedule,
Speaker 1: which is what makes them useful for your studying sleep.
Speaker 1: You are living with people who are in smaller communities,
Speaker 1: aren't connected to the grid in the same way that
Speaker 1: we are. Are They sleeping like, you know, ten hours
Speaker 1: a night and uninterruptedly and waking fresh faced every day?
Speaker 1: Like what is their sleep experience? Compared to ours. Actual
Speaker 1: sleep duration would be somewhere around six to seven hours
Speaker 1: per night, which is actually pretty much the same pattern
Speaker 1: we have in the US. If that surprises you, me too.
Speaker 1: A lot of us somewhere along the way picked up
Speaker 1: the number eight. You're supposed to get eight hours of
Speaker 1: shut I every night, but recommendations from the National Sleep
Speaker 1: Foundation highlight how that changes over the course of development.
Speaker 1: Newborns are supposed to get fourteen to seventeen hours a day,
Speaker 1: which makes them horrible Dutch Calvinists. For adults, the recommendation
Speaker 1: is seven to nine hours, but the need varies from
Speaker 1: person to person and night tonight. The right amount of
Speaker 1: sleep for you is the amount that enables you to
Speaker 1: wake up well rested and ready for the day. Gandhi
Speaker 1: has recorded a notable difference, though, in the time that's
Speaker 1: earmarked for sleep in the communities he studied if they
Speaker 1: spend more time in bed. Time in bed is your
Speaker 1: conscious decision, and sleep duration is not a conscious decision.
Speaker 1: That means they don't have to optimize their horizontal hours
Speaker 1: to ring every minute of rest out of them like
Speaker 1: there's a comfortable margin of air. Do you have a
Speaker 1: confident answer to the question what is normal human sleep?
Speaker 1: Normal human sleep fits into your day, like you don't
Speaker 1: shape your day around your sleep, you shape your sleep
Speaker 1: around your day. When people ask me from the other side,
Speaker 1: like why study sleep, my new elevator pitch is that
Speaker 1: the only things that are important in your life will
Speaker 1: affect your sleep. So if something really great happens, you're
Speaker 1: staying up late, that affects your sleep. If you're really
Speaker 1: troubled by some thing and you're feeling anxiety, that affects
Speaker 1: your sleep. If you've ever read a magazine about getting
Speaker 1: better sleep, you've probably been told how important it is
Speaker 1: to have a routine to keep your bedroom a sanctum
Speaker 1: for rest. However, I've found that consistency from night tonight
Speaker 1: is totally a Western recommendation thing. When you have the
Speaker 1: ability to control your environment, you can try to do
Speaker 1: things like that and sleep at the same time every
Speaker 1: night and have these routines and rituals to kind of
Speaker 1: get yourself into the mood to sleep. But in the
Speaker 1: environments I've been working in, people don't have that level
Speaker 1: of control. It's the environment that tells them when to sleep,
Speaker 1: not their own ritual. Are the populations that you've spent
Speaker 1: time with. Are they as frequently tired as people who
Speaker 1: are living in industrial societies? Definitely not. They are more
Speaker 1: rested and less tired. Why I think that your sleep
Speaker 1: and your awake have to kind of reach this dynamic equilibrium.
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of where in our populations in
Speaker 1: the West, where time is money, you really push yourself
Speaker 1: and you really take this flexible phenotype of sleep that
Speaker 1: we we have the biological capacity to limit it to
Speaker 1: pursue waking activities, and we really stretch it as far
Speaker 1: as it can possibly go to the point where we
Speaker 1: start suffering consequences. Humans are made of flexible stuff. We
Speaker 1: adapt our schedules and lifestyles to our particular circumstances, and
Speaker 1: modern schedules have stretched the elastic about as far as
Speaker 1: it will go without starting to fray. I think that
Speaker 1: it's almost like diabetes, because we achieved something as a
Speaker 1: society where food is so plentiful and sugar is so
Speaker 1: abundant that we now get sick from it. That we're
Speaker 1: so good at staying up late after dark and making
Speaker 1: good use of that time, that now that we're all
Speaker 1: chronically sleep deprived, we just push and push push ourselves
Speaker 1: really freaking hard. The brain can become so tired it
Speaker 1: can't detect how tired it is, and we fool ourselves
Speaker 1: spectacularly into thinking you're perfectly okay, but actually your cognitive
Speaker 1: abilities are really really on the floor. That, of course
Speaker 1: is our guy rustling in. So what steps can we
Speaker 1: actually take to improve our sleep lives? Get as much
Speaker 1: natural light as possible, particularly in the morning. It sets
Speaker 1: the body clock, which sets the sleep wake cycle, and
Speaker 1: morning light is really good for stabilizing Most people skip
Speaker 1: the sleeping pills. All of the currently available sleeping tablets
Speaker 1: have the problem that they sedate you. They don't provide
Speaker 1: a biological mimic for sleep, and don't get too caught
Speaker 1: up in the sleep apps and all their color coded analytics.
Speaker 1: Some of the problems that people are getting with commercially
Speaker 1: available apps are really sending them into a tail spin.
Speaker 1: One person came up to me before COVID and said,
Speaker 1: my app is telling me I don't get any slow
Speaker 1: way sleep. And so this chap actually would wake himself
Speaker 1: up at three o'clock in the morning to check how
Speaker 1: much slow wave sleep his app was telling him. At first,
Speaker 1: of all, these apps are really bad at telling us
Speaker 1: about slow wave sleep and all the rest of it,
Speaker 1: and we don't even really understand what slow wave sleep
Speaker 1: is for, so roughly, when did you go to sleep,
Speaker 1: when do you wake up? How many interrupts in the night.
Speaker 1: That's kind of useful information, but I think more than
Speaker 1: that you can be misleading and in fact, really rather harmful.
Speaker 1: It generates more anxiety. So take him with a pinch
Speaker 1: of salt. God, it does have a real cool, like
Speaker 1: fireplace sound that I got super into here, but it's
Speaker 1: like so much of technology, it's deeply seductive, all right, James,
Speaker 1: James hit me. Oh that's a nice It's just a
Speaker 1: nice How could you not like that? Okay, cut it.
Speaker 1: I don't want anybody falling asleep before done. Given that
Speaker 1: sleep is so fundamental, I mean, why is it that
Speaker 1: we suck at getting enough of it? Sleep is just
Speaker 1: another victim of human arrogance that we're above the grubby
Speaker 1: world of biology. We're not. We expect to do whatever
Speaker 1: we want, whatever time of day, and we now know
Speaker 1: that that's not possible. I think things are changing now.
Speaker 1: We appreciate and the society is appreciating the incredible value
Speaker 1: of sleep. I've noticed that shift to friends, colleagues, famous
Speaker 1: people that I follow online all seem to be recognizing
Speaker 1: the importance of rest. The NAP Ministry, which frames rest
Speaker 1: as a form of resistance, has almost halfamillion followers on
Speaker 1: Instagram alone, which can be called comfort if you're walking
Speaker 1: down a mental staircase in your head at three am,
Speaker 1: furious that your body seems so reluctant to meet its
Speaker 1: own biological imperative. A final thought from Moody are insomniac
Speaker 1: seriologist is an amazing phrase during a hard night can
Speaker 1: bed knowing that you need rest unable to get it?
Speaker 1: Have you recited that incantation? I have tried a lot
Speaker 1: of things, but I haven't tried that, And you've just
Speaker 1: given me the idea why not tonight? Tonight is the
Speaker 1: night a star you'll be hearing from me. We may
Speaker 1: struggle to sleep because we're anxious, and then struggle to
Speaker 1: quell our anxieties because we're tired. Hashtag to lip too,
Speaker 1: and more generally, we struggle because we've tried to slot
Speaker 1: sleep into a neat little window in our schedules. We
Speaker 1: expect ourselves to do it on command, at the hour
Speaker 1: that is most convenient for the rest of our more
Speaker 1: important lives. But falling into sleep like love is not
Speaker 1: entirely self determined. You can only set the mood and
Speaker 1: then make way for time and gravity to do their work.
Speaker 1: And that My far Flown Friends is our last program
Speaker 1: of Deeply Human second season, which means it's time to
Speaker 1: roll credits. So why don't you just why don't you
Speaker 1: just tuck in and we'll do this a s m
Speaker 1: R style. Our series producer is Simon Maybin. Producers are
Speaker 1: our Len Gregorio's Ellie House, Beth Sagar Fenton, Sandra Kenthal,
Speaker 1: and Craig Templeton Smith with help from Hannah au Guru
Speaker 1: and May Cameron. Our editor is Hugh Levinson. Our production
Speaker 1: coordinator is Janet Staples, and this season was mixed by
Speaker 1: my arrival, James Beard. Speaking of James, will you hit Oh,
Speaker 1: they're good. I'll give you that. You're very talented arch
Speaker 1: enemy who really strives for excellence and takes brightness work.
Speaker 1: Deeply Human is a BBC World Service and American public
Speaker 1: media co production with I Heeart Media. It's written and
Speaker 1: hosted by me Dessa. Find me online at Dessa on
Speaker 1: Instagram and Dessa Darling on Twitter, Okay, James, James, Okay
Speaker 1: they're out. Let's call get another dessert and watch scary
Speaker 1: movies with swear words. God, being adults is awesome.