1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, this is Part two of the Amy Fisher story. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to part one yet, I recommend 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: starting there. Just a note that we discuss sexual violence 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: and abuse in this episode. 5 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: The final chapter in the saga of the Long Island Lolita, 6 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 2: Amy Fisher coming face to face with her victim. 7 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: Just six months after seventeen year old Amy Fisher shot 8 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: Mary Joe Bettafuco, the wife of her thirty eight year 9 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: old boyfriend, or statutory rapist based on his later conviction, 10 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: Amy appeared before a judge for sentencing. 11 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 2: It was the first time Amy Fisher had seen Mary 12 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 2: Joe Buttafuco since May nineteenth, nineteen ninety two. This time 13 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 2: the two met in a court to hear a judge sentence. 14 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 3: Amy Fisher, you are. 15 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 4: A tragedy in disgrace to yourself, to your family, to 16 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 4: your friends, and to society, and you deserve no less 17 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 4: than the maximum sentence I can impose by law. 18 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: Her punishment fifteen years in prison. But going away wouldn't 19 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: end the media frenzy around Amy or help her escape 20 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 1: that label, the Long Island Lolita that still follows her 21 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: to this day. 22 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 3: I'm Susie Vanaker and I'm Jessica Bennett. 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: And this is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit 24 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: a cultural moment from the past that shaped. 25 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 3: Ust and that we just can't stop thinking about. 26 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: This week, we're talking about Amy Fisher and how she 27 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: came to be known as the Long Island Lolita, but 28 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: we're also talking about the way that word lolita and 29 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 1: that trope is used to paint young girls as precocious 30 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: and seductive. This is part two, jess I've been thinking 31 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: about kind of what happens to Amy Fisher and all 32 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: this right, and that she's punished, but she's punished so 33 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: much more heavily than Joey. But Afuko, who she claims, 34 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: really was essentially a co conspirator, right. She claimed that 35 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: he talked a lot about wanting his wife gone, that 36 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: he talked about his insurance policy, that he wanted her dead, 37 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: and so she comes up with this plan to ingratiate 38 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: herself with him or to please him. This is really 39 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: something she does because she's doing something that he wants. 40 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: And she goes away from five to fifteen years and 41 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: he gets four months, right, and that that is really 42 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: telling about the way society sort of looked at her 43 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: versus him. 44 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 5: So how does this compare to other people in similar 45 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 5: situations at that time or I don't know if anything 46 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 5: could be really similar, but well, again there are actually. 47 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: Things that are, like, not exactly similar, but give you 48 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: a sense of how disproportionate the way she was punished 49 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: was and sort of what that said about the kind 50 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: of bloodthirst around her. So another really famous tablet case 51 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: at the time was the Preppy killer Robert Chambers. And 52 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: for people who don't remember that case, Robert Chambers killed 53 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: a woman that he was having a sexual encounter with 54 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: in Central Park and claimed it was consensual rough sex. 55 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: He choked her to death, so doesn't seem like a 56 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 1: consensual encounter. But he got the same sentence as Amy Fisher. 57 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: He literally killed someone. I mean, she did try to 58 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: kill someone, but it's interesting that they got the exact 59 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: same sentence. But the other thing that's interesting is she 60 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: got two million for bail and he got one hundred 61 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: and fifty thousand. I mean, that's a really big contrast 62 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: in terms of how dangerous they assessed her to be 63 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: as compared to him, who was an actual killer. 64 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 5: So this also reminds me of what I think was 65 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 5: the biggest tabloid story before Amy Fisher, which was William 66 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 5: Kennedy Smith JFK's nephew who was accused of raping a 67 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 5: woman on the beach in Palm Beach, Florida, where he 68 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 5: was with his uncle Ted Kennedy. Yes, and he was 69 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 5: acquitted in I think one of the shortest deliberation periods ever, 70 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 5: in less than eighty minutes by atory. 71 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 6: Yeah. 72 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting because a lot of people 73 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: have kind of forgotten about this case. But to give 74 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: you an idea of just how big a case it was. 75 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: At the time, when I was in high school, I 76 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: had a poster in my room that said William Kennedy 77 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: Smith Meet Thelma and Louise, and it was a picture 78 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: of Thelma and Louise. I mean what At the time, 79 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: it was a very very prominent case. If you cared 80 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: about women and rape and feminist issues, you were following 81 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: it because it felt like he got away scott free 82 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: because he was a. 83 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 5: Kennedy and Thelm and Lois. That was basically like saying 84 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 5: he should be killed. Yes, basically they had a gun 85 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 5: in their hand. It was like a picture of elm 86 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 5: em Loui's with a gun in their hand. 87 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: I should have been about that, Like it was like 88 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: a photocopied poster like William Kennedy Smith meet melmanis. 89 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 3: Wow, that's like very scum manifesto of you. 90 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: Well, you can imagine a boarding school. I was like 91 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: really like out there, okay. 92 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 5: And so my sense is that Joey, you know, he 93 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 5: goes to jail for four months, he gets out, he 94 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 5: like moves on, and this continues to follow Amy into 95 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,239 Speaker 5: here we are twenty twenty three talking about this case. 96 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 97 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: I mean, what's interesting is that the only reason he 98 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: kind of doesn't fade into obscurity is he really tries 99 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: to stay in the spotlight. Right. He moves to La, 100 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: he tries to become an actor, he has a public 101 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: access show, who loves the attention, He's constantly giving press conferences, 102 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 1: and he just never stops trying to be in the spotlight. 103 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: Whereas she has attempted in various different ways over the 104 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: years to kind of move on, and one of the 105 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: things she said in an interview at some point was 106 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: anytime he does something crazy, or he does something buffoonish, 107 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: or he gets arrested, all across the newspapers again, it's 108 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: the Long Island Lolita, Like I'm the one that can't 109 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: get away from this, even though he's the one that 110 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: is often keeping this story in the headlines, and that 111 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: this is a label she just cannot escape for the 112 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: rest of her life. And it's also so recognizable, right like, 113 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: the minute you put Long Island Lolita in the headline, 114 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: most people who were alive during that story have an 115 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: immediate recollection of her. They can picture her, the long 116 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: hair and the bangs and the Long Island of it all. 117 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 5: And I think you were telling me earlier that you 118 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 5: know some of the adjectives used for Amy in all 119 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 5: of these stories and newscasts about her, where things like sick, spoiled, her, 120 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 5: teens maker, arrogant, reverted. 121 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: Like all the adjectives used for her are about how 122 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: crazy she is, how sex hungry she is. But they 123 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,679 Speaker 1: also really go out of their way to generally refer 124 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: to her as a woman. The prosecution only ever refers 125 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: to as a woman. She's very rarely called a girl, 126 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: although she is quite literally still a girl. She's under eighteen, 127 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: but there's this real sort of need to make her 128 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: into an adult with agency, and to make her into 129 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: this like very sexually aggressive being, because there's no way 130 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: that she can be a victim, right, she has to 131 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 1: be the perpetrator, and that's partially because she has done 132 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: something violent. Right. The thing about this case that's complicated 133 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: is that there is this sort of like innocent woman, 134 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: Mary Joe, who she has, you know, harmed in this 135 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: like extremely aggressive way. And so it is I think 136 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: impossible for the public imagination to hold the idea that 137 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: both Mary Joe and Amy might be victims, not that 138 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: Mary Joe is the victim and Amy is this sort 139 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: of monster who has wrought vengeance on her. 140 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, what stands out is that in the beginning, I'm 141 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 5: sort of thinking of her as a villain, But as 142 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 5: you begin to learn all these different little things about 143 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 5: the case and her background and how she was treated, 144 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 5: and you peel back these layers, it's almost like she 145 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 5: becomes more of a victim, and yet she never totally 146 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 5: sheds that villain archetype or whatever you want to call it. 147 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: Totally, because it feels like, when you go back and 148 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: read the coverage now that she's as much sort of 149 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: being punished and villainized for being this sexual being as 150 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: she is for what she did to Mary joe It's 151 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: like there's this sense that because she is seen as promiscuous, 152 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: she needs to be punished and put in her place 153 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: right that it's like she can't just be like a 154 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: teen girl who came to that promiscuity through abuse, which 155 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: we know was in her background, or because she's been 156 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: sort of like victimized by Joey. The fact that she's 157 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: a prostitute is meant to indicate that she's some sort 158 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: of harlot that deserves to be punished. And in fact, 159 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: there's like this really interesting detail that when the prosecutor 160 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,599 Speaker 1: is trying to convince the judge to give her a 161 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: two million dollar bail, one of the justifications for that 162 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: he uses is that she's a prostitute, and he's like, 163 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: if we let her out, she will just fade into 164 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: a life of prostitution and never be found again, as 165 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: if she's not literally like the most famous person in 166 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: the country, Like there is no way for her to 167 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 1: fade into obscurity. She's on every newspaper cover in New 168 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: York City, but it's like they continuously go back to 169 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: Thistle is a way to make it seem like she's 170 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: this deranged sick person that needs to be like boxed 171 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: up and put away. 172 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 5: Okay, So I mean I think we should talk about 173 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 5: that directly because we're talking about this really complicated case. 174 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 5: There are many things at play here, but we are 175 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 5: largely talking about one thing, which is the Lolita trope. Yes, 176 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 5: And I almost think we need to pause for a 177 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 5: minute to remind our listeners and ourselves maybe the origins 178 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 5: and connotations of that word. 179 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: Yes, of Lolita, which is from the nineteen fifty five 180 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: novel written by the Russian American novelist Vladimir Nabokov. The book, 181 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: for those who don't remember, is about a middle aged 182 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: professor who becomes obsessed with a twelve year old girl 183 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: who he nicknames Lolita. Eventually he becomes her stepfather and 184 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: then kidnaps and sexually abuses her. And what's so interesting 185 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: about the Lolita trope is that it is quite literally 186 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 1: a book about a man who kidnaps and rapes a child. 187 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: But over time, over the course of the last seventy years, 188 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: the definition of a lolita has changed so much that 189 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: it is no longer considered the term for someone who's abused, 190 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: but instead Miriam Webster literally defines it as a precociously 191 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: seductive girl today. 192 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 3: That is the twenty today night. 193 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: That is the today definition of it. So it's become 194 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: this shorthand for a girl who's sexual before her time, 195 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: like a seductress, when that's fundamentally not what the character 196 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: is in the book. And in fact, in my conversation 197 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: with Amy Pagnosi, that's the New York Post reporter we 198 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: spoke to earlier, she mentioned that she really fought the 199 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: New York Post on using the term Lolita for that 200 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: infamous headline. Yeah. 201 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 7: I was a lid major in school and I was 202 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 7: one of always one of my favorite books, and it's 203 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 7: about a pedophile. So I kept saying, this is not 204 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 7: what that means. But you know, I think it's it's 205 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 7: something that a lot of men like to think that 206 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 7: women that age actually want them. 207 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 5: I think that my most vivid recollection of that idea 208 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 5: of the Little Lita is the movie American Beauty, which. 209 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 3: I loved growing up. 210 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 5: Oh interesting Storry Kevin Spacey, who we, along with many 211 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 5: people think of in a new way now. But he's 212 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 5: basically playing a man who has a midlife crisis and 213 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 5: becomes completely infatuated with his teenage daughter's best friend. 214 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 1: So you may not know this because I did not 215 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: know this until we were researching this episode. But American 216 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: Beauty was inspired by the Amy Fisher story. The screenwriter 217 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: said that he saw this comic book that was released 218 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: after she went to prison, and it sort of inspired him. 219 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: Comic book about Amy Fisher, about Amy Fisher and Joey 220 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: Buttafa Go, and it inspired him to finish the movie. 221 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 3: This is Alan Ball, the screenwriter. 222 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's actually a quote from him, and I'll 223 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: read you some of it. He says, I'd been working 224 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: on the basic premise for eight years. The genesis of 225 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: the idea for me was the Amy Fisher Joey buttafuco 226 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: business in New York City when I was living there. 227 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 1: I was working at Adweek and I came out one 228 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: day and some guy was selling a comic book about 229 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: Amy and Joey. On the one side was this virginal 230 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: looking Amy and a big, leering, lectrous, predatory Joey. And 231 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: you flip it over and he's all buttoned up and 232 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: she's all tarted up in predatory sluttie vixen. I remember 233 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: thinking the truth is somewhere in those and we will 234 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: never know what it is. Wow, fascinating, isn't that fascinating? 235 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: Which is also like is the truth somewhere in the middle. 236 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: We know that she was a teen girl, So again 237 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: it's this need to kind of turn the teen girl 238 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: into someone who is tempting, who is seducing, who is calculating, 239 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: who has agency, and is in fact the instigator, when 240 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 1: in reality that is rarely the case, right, Like young 241 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: girls are rarely these like evil geniuses. We're trying to 242 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 1: like seduce men. 243 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 5: And even if they are, by the way, you're a 244 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 5: grown ass adult. So maybe, yeah, exactly a little perspective. 245 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 5: Good point, But this is far from the first film 246 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 5: to be inspired by the Amy Fisher story. 247 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: Correct, yes, this is far from the only movie to 248 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: be inspired by Amy Fisher. In fact, the most famous 249 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: movies that were inspired by her are these three TV 250 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: movies that came out right after she went to jail. 251 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 1: They came out sort of one right after the other. 252 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: Two of them I think aired on the same night, 253 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: and one of them aired like the week before. As 254 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: you might remember, the way that Amy makes bail is 255 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: she sells her version of the story and then Joey 256 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: and Mary Joe. But if Fuco sell their version of 257 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: the story, and then there's a third version that gets made, 258 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: and this one is based on Amy Pagnosi's New York 259 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: Post columns, and she's actually a character in the film. 260 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: Here's Amy again. 261 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 7: I got a lot of offers from a lot of 262 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 7: different people, and the one from ABC seemed to be 263 00:13:59,120 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 7: the best. 264 00:13:59,440 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: Woman. 265 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 7: I really really loved being a columnist more than anything. 266 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 7: But the movie money was great because all I had 267 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 7: to do was give them access to the notes that 268 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 7: I had. The screenwriter was wonderful. I actually think of 269 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 7: all of the three movies, it was the best one, 270 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 7: I agree, And the person who played me was incredibly nice. 271 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know. 272 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 3: I mean, do we need three Amy Fisher movies? 273 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: Do we need one Amy Fisher movie? 274 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 8: No? 275 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: Of course not. 276 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 3: There were much much more important things to cover. 277 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 278 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 3: I mean, that's a very good point. 279 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 5: But it really shows how much the Amy Fisher story 280 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 5: literally became entertainment. 281 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, these TV movies were really popular and 282 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: started pretty big name actresses at the time. Drew Barrymore 283 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: starred in. 284 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 3: One, Alyssa Milano was in one of the other ones. 285 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, so Alyssa Milano was in one called Casualties 286 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: of Love, the Long Island Low Leita story. 287 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 3: Okay, it's just that. 288 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 8: I like all the guys, I mean the boys in 289 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 8: my school one, two, three, you know, and it's like over. 290 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: And then there was a little known actress named Noel 291 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: Parker who was in the lethal Lolita version. I mean, 292 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: I know what I did, but I just don't understand 293 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: how it all began. 294 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 5: And then Drew Barrymore is in the most popular one, 295 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 5: the Amy Fisher, the Amy Fisher story. 296 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 8: Joey is the only man I love and I will 297 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 8: do whatever it takes to his wife out of the way. 298 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 5: Which side not interesting because Drew, as a child actress, 299 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 5: has talked, i think in more recent years about being 300 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 5: very sexualized from a young age. 301 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: Yes. And actually one thing that's interesting is that in 302 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: the research Sharone who works on the show, found this 303 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: clip of her talking about playing Amy Fisher, and in 304 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: that interview with Conan O'Brien, he is sexualizing her in 305 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: really creepy ways, like he's asking about her tattoos in 306 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: this creepy way. And it should be noted that Drew 307 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: Barrymore was also underage like she must have been maybe 308 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: eighteen when she did this interview, so she is in 309 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: fact in playing this character being sexualized and then experiencing 310 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: the same sort of media reaction to it, which is 311 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: like a weird meta thing that goes on. But what's 312 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: also interesting is that these films are so much more 313 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: popular than the networks expect right, they all air in primetime, 314 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: which is just not a thing you would see like 315 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: now they would just become lifetime movies or whatever. But 316 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: they all air on primetime television. They do really well, 317 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: and in some ways they kind of are the beginning 318 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: of this true crime era that now is so huge, 319 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: especially in podcasts. But this is the beginning of entertainment 320 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: executives beginning to understand how much of an appetite there 321 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: is for these true stories. And actually this is part 322 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: of a genre of film in the nineties that becomes 323 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: really popular. It starts in nineteen ninety two, the year 324 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: that Amy shoots Mary Joe. In fact, in the same month, 325 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: there is this movie Poison IVY, also starring grew Marymore 326 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: that comes out about a teenage girl who becomes obsessed 327 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: with her friend's father and she murders her friend's mother 328 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: to try and get to the fall. So again this seductress, 329 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: this like young girl, and this. 330 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 5: Is not based on Amy and Joey's story. This just 331 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 5: happens to be coming out at the same time. 332 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: Yes, isn't that crazy. It literally comes out the month 333 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: that this incident occurs. And this is also the Fatal 334 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 1: Attraction era, right, Yes, so this is right after Fatal Attraction. 335 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,479 Speaker 1: Amy is constantly kind of compared to Fatal Attraction entirely 336 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: coverage before she kind of becomes her own cautionary tale. 337 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 5: Right She love a sexy, murderous woman, yes, but also 338 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 5: like vengeful the essentially they are all the original e right. 339 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: They are the women who tempt these good men away 340 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: from their good wives, and they lure them into this 341 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: horrible life that otherwise they would not be lured into. 342 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 1: It's just like really removes agency from men, which is 343 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 1: I think why men love these stories, right, they're never 344 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: responsible for their bad behavior. 345 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 3: Well, to be fair, I think women love these stories too. 346 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is true. I don't know why women. 347 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 5: Love these stories on largely men who are watching these 348 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 5: is it? And maybe we don't know, But I bet 349 00:17:59,480 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 5: it's not. 350 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 1: I think it's both. Yeah, I definitely don't think it's 351 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: just like men who love these stories. 352 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 3: Wasn't there another one? Wasn't there crush or something like that? 353 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: Yes? 354 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 3: Was there one that's Alicia's Silverstone? 355 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: Yes? Yes? And Carrie Always, who I love from The 356 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: Princess Bride. Oh, that movie was inspired by Amy Fisher, 357 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: at least compared to it. It came out in ninety three. 358 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: It's about this precocious child who is played by Alicia 359 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: Silverstone in her first movie. She becomes obsessed with Carrie Always, 360 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: who's a writer who's like renting an apartment from her family, 361 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: and she's like a genius, which is also very weird. 362 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 1: Like the need to make them really smart I think 363 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: is fascinating because again it's why they're able to manipulate 364 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: these perfectly innocent men into doing these like outrageous things 365 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: who can't keep it in their pants. And then there's 366 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: like this weird scene where she tries to kill his 367 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 1: girlfriend by trapping her in a room with bethes. I mean, absolutely, 368 00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, wild tale. 369 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 5: Also, I was just going to say about Alicia Silverstone, 370 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 5: such an interesting character also in the Marvin because remember 371 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 5: that Aerosmith song. I loved Crazy and the music video 372 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 5: for it, where she's like this hot I think underage 373 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 5: or much younger. 374 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: I mean I think she looked like she was like 375 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: twelve at the time, and with Stephen Tyler. Yes, who 376 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: you know the thing about Stephen Tyler? Right? So, Stephen 377 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: Tyler in fact, was recently sued by a woman who 378 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: says that he adopted her when she was underage. 379 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 3: Okay, so that in order to be in a relationship with. 380 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: Her, in ordered to be in a relationship with her 381 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: and to take her out on the road, so he 382 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: became her literal. 383 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 5: Well guardian, I read this story. I read this story, okay. 384 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 5: And he is also the father of Liv Tyler, who 385 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 5: was in the Crazy video with Alicia Silverstone. 386 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: Right. 387 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 5: Yes, I remember thinking they were like the hottest thing 388 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 5: like that. I wanted to be that, like. 389 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: Video was so cool, and I think like music videos 390 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: don't really have the same cachet they did then, But 391 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: that music video was in itself like a huge cultural moment, 392 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: like everybody saw it. It was like a very popular video. 393 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: I think it was the number one video. It was 394 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: like at the height of MTV, when MTV has really 395 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: become its own art of the zeitgeist, so that video 396 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: really was something that everybody saw. 397 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 5: And so it's like these things are all circling, and 398 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 5: it's like Amy Fisher and Joey Buttafuoco are somewhat at 399 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 5: the center. 400 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: Somewhat at the center, right, they sort of inspire but 401 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,719 Speaker 1: also reflect what's kind of happening in the culture at 402 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: the time, which is this kind of sexualization of young 403 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: girls in this very specific way that's not as innocent children, 404 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: but as seductresses and temptresses in their own right. And 405 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: one thing that I think is so interesting about the 406 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: movie Crush is that there's actually a review of it 407 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: I found, which I think speaks to how disturbing these 408 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: movies kind of were and were never acknowledged to be. 409 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: Like I saw a Crush when it came out, and 410 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: I remember, like the movie, I was like a teen 411 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: girl at the time. Right, the critic rights, the movie 412 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: is virtually an invitation to child abuse. In shot after shot, 413 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: Shapiro pans his camera up one side of Silverstone's body 414 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: and down the other, as if it was perfectly all 415 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 1: right for us to visually caress the thighs of a 416 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: fourteen year old. 417 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 5: Wow, this was in the Washington Post. Yes, Hal Hinston, 418 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 5: I'm looking at it now. Yeah, thanks holl And. 419 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: Also, the way that quote ends is he says, my 420 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: guess is that most people will find the whole business creepy, 421 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: and even creepier still the people who made it. But 422 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: in fact people didn't find them creepy, and the movie 423 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: did well. It was a success. 424 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 5: I mean, I guess it's not really that surprising that 425 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 5: people loved those movies. 426 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: At the time. 427 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 3: They were fantasy. 428 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 5: There was something enticing about how dark and twisted they were. 429 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a little taboo, you know, even though 430 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: these girls were always punished in the end, there was 431 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: something compelling about girls who are aggressive and open about 432 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: wanting men, Like as a teen girl, you didn't see 433 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: that very often, and in a lot of ways, that's 434 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: what was underlying the coverage of Amy. 435 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 5: Oh, that's a good point, Like, of course she's punished 436 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 5: for the actual crime she commits, but one thing the 437 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 5: media continues to fixate on is how freely she talks 438 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 5: about sex and wanting it. 439 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, which now, of course we would interpret as an 440 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: immediate red flag of some kind of trauma in her past, 441 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: But back then that was just another freakish point to 442 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: zero in on. 443 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 5: And to make fun of, Like, don't you remember how 444 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 5: this became a huge bit on USNL. 445 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 6: You've seen the other three. Now the fourth Network presents 446 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 6: the fourth Amy Fisher story. Tory's spelling is Amy Fisher 447 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 6: in Aaron spellings Amy Fisher one oh five one six. 448 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's the other side of 449 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: the coin. Right, So, on the one hand, Amy is 450 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: being presented in this sort of like very villainous way, 451 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: but also the story lends itself to comedy, right, So 452 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: the Late night comics love it because honestly, the name 453 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: is so ridiculous, right, Like, but a Fuco is a 454 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: ridiculous name. It just sounds funny, And so his name 455 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: alone just becomes a punchline that the Late night comics 456 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: are using over and over. 457 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 6: Again number three and get one more cheap laugh by 458 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 6: saying the word but a Fuca. 459 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: Also, a thing we haven't really talked about is there's 460 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: this real obsession about Amy and Joey's accents at the time. 461 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: They have these very thick, long island accents, ok that 462 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: I don't think we're all that commonly heard outside of 463 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: the Tri State area. And so their accents are really 464 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: rife for impressions, right, I mean, you can really hear 465 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: the Long Island in them, and that culture feels very 466 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: unique to the rest of the country. And because I 467 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: love it so much, let's listen to this great example 468 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: from the sketch comedy show in Living Color with Jim Carrey. 469 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 8: Ma. 470 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: You know, the Long Island will lead up and. 471 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 5: Right, so I want to take us back to the 472 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 5: case itself. This obviously becomes a huge media spectacle. I 473 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 5: don't think I had any idea that that many works 474 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 5: of film were based on this story. But you mentioned, 475 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 5: Susie that Amy is really never able to live a 476 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 5: normal life after this. 477 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 3: So what actually happens? 478 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: So she tells her own story a few different ways. 479 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: She does an interview with Inside Edition. There's also a 480 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,719 Speaker 1: book she writes in nineteen ninety four with Sheila Weller, 481 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: who is a very well known journalist and has gone 482 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: on to write a number of books about very famous 483 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 1: women Carrie Fisher, Carol King, Joni Mitchell, Chris Jian Almenpoor 484 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: And it's really the first time that Amy extensively tells 485 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: her side of the story. She was raped by a 486 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: handyman in her home when she was around thirteen. This 487 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: book reveals that she had also been sexually abused by 488 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: a person close to the family when she was very young, 489 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: starting around three or four years old. And also it 490 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: just paints a very different picture of Amy. It's a 491 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: much more nuanced portrait of her as shy and naive, 492 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: still sort of hoping that Joey's going to come in 493 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: and save the day, or that Joey still loves her, 494 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: desperate for kind of male approval from anyone who's willing 495 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,959 Speaker 1: to give it to her, and it sort of starts 496 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: to give you a hint that she has some mental 497 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: illness that's untreated and contributes to her thinking that, you know, 498 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: this shooting never registers for her as a real crime 499 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: when she's doing it, she doesn't really have a sense 500 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: of consequences when she embarks on this thing that forever 501 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: changes her life. It's almost like she's so naive and 502 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: so detached from reality. She's more worried about her parents 503 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: grounding her than she is about going to jail. And 504 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: the interviews in the book take place right before she 505 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: goes to jail, then continue throughout her first couple of years, 506 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: So it also describes what that transition is of going 507 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: to jail and kind of the shock of that. 508 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 3: So when is she actually released from prison? 509 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,959 Speaker 1: So she's released in nineteen ninety nine, and interestingly, Mary Joe, 510 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: who spends years talking about how sick she is and 511 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: saying that she doesn't feel safe with Amy out and about, 512 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: is instrumental in her release. She appears at a parole 513 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: hearing for her, Amy apologizes to her directly. They have 514 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: this like moment in court, and it is ultimately what 515 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: causes the judge to decide she's served enough time and 516 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: change her deal and release her. 517 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 3: What happens then, what does she do with her life? 518 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 1: So she actually marries a man she met on an 519 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 1: online dating site after she got out of prison. He's 520 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 1: an older man, another one. He's like a videographer, like 521 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: I think, like a mostly wedding videographer. They have three kids. 522 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: At some point they've moved to Florida and been keeping 523 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: with every other man in her life. Eventually he betrays her. 524 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: There's a period where they are separated in two thousand 525 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: and seven, and she does this weird thing. Her and 526 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: Joey do this weird thing where they pretend to get 527 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: back together because they're trying to shop a reality show, 528 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: and her husband says that this makes him angry, and 529 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: so he releases one of their sex tapes. So, like 530 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 1: every other man that she's ever trusted, he essentially betrays 531 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: her with revenge porn, and he releases this sex tape 532 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 1: of her. But it is hugely successful, and the sex 533 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: tape is successful. 534 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 3: What does that mean? Is successful rests money. 535 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: And lots of people watch it. But you know, despite 536 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: the fact that the tape is released without her consent, 537 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 1: she decides to lean into it and start doing porn regularly. 538 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: And she says about it at the time, I'm I 539 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: have two choices. I can sit there and say it 540 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: doesn't exist, which it does exist, you know, or I 541 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: can do the intelligent thing, which for Amy Fisher means 542 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: making the best of the situation and making money. So 543 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: she so she starts porn, starts doing porn. She does 544 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: her own pay per view adult film called Amy Fisher 545 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: Totally Nude and Exposed. 546 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 3: Oh wow, Okay, yeah. 547 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: She makes a handful of adult movies that starts in 548 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, but in twenty eleven she stops 549 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: making the films. She decides to leave the porn industry, 550 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: and in twenty fifteen she gets a divorce and then 551 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: she moves home to Long Island and the New York 552 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: Post continues to haunt her, and the last published report 553 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: about her is a New York Post piece where they 554 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: have found her doing camgirls stuff. That's before OnlyFans, so 555 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: you know, she's doing like sort of sex work through camgirl. 556 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: They portray it as an incredibly seedy it's like a 557 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: very sad story. They confront her, she denies that it's 558 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: her or even though she used her name and they 559 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: have her image, and she's living with her mom again actually, 560 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: and that's really the last we hear from Aymie Fix 561 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: When is that? That's in twenty seventeen. Then after that, 562 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: I think that year or the year following, she changes 563 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: her name. She goes to court, she listens to have 564 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: a name change, and she no longer does press. And 565 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,959 Speaker 1: that's really when she stops being in the public eye. 566 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: The thing that's interesting is that many of the occasions 567 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: where she goes back into the public eye, right this 568 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,239 Speaker 1: sort of like the porn and the reality show, are 569 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: occasions when she's trying to make money from her past. Like, 570 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: one thing you realize is that she goes to jail 571 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: when most kids are going to college. She doesn't have 572 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: anything to fall back go, so the only thing she 573 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: has to kind of fall back on is her notoriety. 574 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: So it's interesting that finally in the late twenty tens, 575 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: she just gives up on that and decides to move on. 576 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: And when she's contacted to be part of projects that 577 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: Mary Joe or Joey are still willing to do, she refuses. 578 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 5: Okay, so Joey's still doing interviews? Is he still like, 579 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 5: what's his deal? 580 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: Yes, Joey and Mary Joe are still somewhat in the 581 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: public eye. So Joey is essentially just like a buffoon 582 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: for a long time. As I mentioned, he moves to 583 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: California to become an actor. He has some bit parts. 584 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: He is arrested again in nineteen ninety five for soliciting 585 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: an undercover cop as a prostitute, and he is obviously 586 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: in violation of his probation at that time, so he 587 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: goes back to jail. He's just generally like a very 588 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: sketchy dude. Mary Joe eventually divorces him in two thousand 589 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: and three, Mary Joe stood by Joey for such a 590 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: long time, And I think that's also like a really 591 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: interesting part of the story that we haven't had a 592 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: chance to explore, which is that there's this sort of 593 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,719 Speaker 1: psychological thing that happens with Mary Joe where she is 594 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 1: so defensive of Joey. It's almost like she needs to 595 00:30:54,760 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: deny the affair to somehow not give Amy any excuse 596 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: for what she did. So for so many years she 597 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: denies that the fair even happened. She stands by him, 598 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: she calls Amy names, but then eventually she realizes that 599 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: Joey is a sociopath, like literally releases. 600 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 3: Them a sociopaths called. 601 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: Getting It through My Thick Skull, Why I stayed, what 602 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: I learned, and what millions of people involved with sociopaths 603 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: need to know. So she writes that book in two 604 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: thousand and nine. Wait, sorry, one clarification. 605 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 5: So is she still with Joey when she's helping Amy 606 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 5: to get out of jail. 607 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: Yes, she is still with him. I think that's one 608 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: of the interesting details about Okay. She doesn't divorce him 609 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: until two thousand and three, and then in two thousand 610 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: and five she goes on Oprah and tells her story 611 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: for you know, some reason like where are they now 612 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: or whatever. And actually a plastic surgeon reaches out to 613 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: her after that appearance because she still has paralysis on 614 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: one side of her face, and he offers to fix 615 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: it and she accepts, and in fact, later on there's 616 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: a an Oprah show where the results of her plastic 617 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: surgery are revealed. 618 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 5: So it's still times it's like they just can't stop 619 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 5: doing this media site, like they're trapped, and they're kind 620 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 5: of trapped in useless and then the next generation becomes 621 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 5: part of it. 622 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, obviously we don't talk about the Butafuco 623 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: children that much. Right, there were nine and twelve when 624 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,719 Speaker 1: this happened, and at the time we just didn't really 625 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: think about generational trauma. But they saw their mother shot, 626 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: they saw their father behave like an absolute creep on 627 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: television for years, and then you know, this story follows 628 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: them forever. I mean, they have the Butafuco last name. 629 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: In fact, the Sun has changed his last name. You 630 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: cannot find him. 631 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 8: Right. 632 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 5: Also, it's not like Smith, like this is the most recognizable. 633 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 5: I mean, this is the same when I was reporting 634 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 5: on Monica Lewinsky. 635 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, same deal. 636 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 5: It's like that name is so specific, so loaded and memorable. 637 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: Yes, it's impossible to run away from, you know. So 638 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: either you change your name like the sun does, or 639 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: you do what the daughter did, which is just accept 640 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: that it's part of her history and talk about it publicly. 641 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: You know. In twenty nineteen, actually Mary, Joe and Joey 642 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: and the Daughter do a special on ABC called Growing 643 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,239 Speaker 1: Up but Afuco where Jesse, the daughter, shares what it 644 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: was like for her to be part of the story. 645 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 3: So the daughter actually has a relationship with her father. 646 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Jesse was talking to him at the time of 647 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: the special, but within a year she says on a 648 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: podcast that she stopped speaking to Joey, that she's basically 649 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: gone no contact and that he's toxic and she no 650 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: longer wants to have any relationship with him. I mean, 651 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: good for her, yeah, I mean she's talked extensively about 652 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: what the shooting and all that followed it did to her. 653 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: You know, she went through a lot of depression and anxiety, 654 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: She had eating disorders and addiction to alcohol. So you know, 655 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: you can see why she blames him for a lot 656 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: of that. 657 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 5: It's really like Jesse's experience shows us how this story 658 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 5: really continues to affect everyone involved. 659 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately, I think the option he has chosen 660 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: to try and live a quiet and private life, as 661 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: much as that's even possible for her, is the choice 662 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: I would make too. But I'm sure it's not easy, 663 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 1: and I don't think there is a right answer here. 664 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: So I did try and contact Amy for this story 665 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: because I wanted to let her have the last word 666 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: if she wanted it, but I wasn't able to reach her. 667 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: So I found something she said in two thousand and 668 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: eight when a reporter asked her if she still cared 669 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: about the public perception of her. 670 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 8: You know what, at this point, you know, I've this 671 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 8: is maybe this is awful to say. You know, I 672 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 8: am known for something that is not a good thing. 673 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 8: So you know, I've had a lot of negative media attention. 674 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 8: People have said a lot of horrible things about me, 675 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 8: so over the years, you know, it's made my shell 676 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 8: a little bit hardened. And no, I don't care what 677 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 8: people think about me anymore. You know, if people like me, 678 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 8: that's wonderful. And I think I'm a nice person, and 679 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 8: I think because of everything I've been through in my 680 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 8: life that it's made me actually a kinder, more understanding person. 681 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 3: So interesting. 682 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 5: I mean, I hope for her sake that is true, 683 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 5: But I do wonder if she'd still say that today, Susie. 684 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 5: I know you mentioned we've tried to contact her for 685 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 5: the podcast, but maybe it's worth saying. You know, Amy, 686 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 5: if you're listening, we would still love to talk to you. 687 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 5: And I do hope for her sake that she has 688 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 5: been able to move on. 689 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, And I think that's a good place 690 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: to leave it for today. This is in Retrospect. Thanks 691 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: for listening. Is there a cultural moment you can't stop 692 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: thinking about and want us to explore in a future episode. 693 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: Email us at inretropod at gmail dot com or find 694 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at in retropod. 695 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 5: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 696 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 5: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 697 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 5: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 698 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 5: which we may or may not delete. 699 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 700 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books 701 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: Feminist Fight Club and This Is eighteen in Redhead. 702 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 5: Respect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The Media. 703 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 5: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 704 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 5: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and 705 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 5: associate producer. 706 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 707 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 708 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Kentagram. Additional editing help from Mary 709 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: Doo and Mike Cosperelli, sound correction and mastering by Amanda 710 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: Rose Smith. We are your hosts Suzie Bannaccarum. 711 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 3: And Jessica Bennett. We're also executive producers. 712 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 5: For even more, check out in retropod dot com. 713 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 3: See you next week.