Speaker 1: Welcome to out of money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt's and
Speaker 1: today we're talking creating a post layoff action plan with
Speaker 1: Marlowe Lyons.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So gone are the years of constantly job hopping
Speaker 2: in order to rapidly boost your salary. Like it seemed
Speaker 2: like for a minute their Joel, like everyone was looking
Speaker 2: at job postings as regularly as they were looking at
Speaker 2: houses on Zillo. True story, or maybe that was just me.
Speaker 2: But with the uncertainty though that we've experienced in the
Speaker 2: overall market, it's not just the new hires who are
Speaker 2: a bit nervous about hanging onto their jobs, even the
Speaker 2: government workers out there, or maybe I should even say
Speaker 2: especially the government workers. I don't know, but you know,
Speaker 2: they thought they had fairly secure positions. They might be
Speaker 2: on the chopping block. They might be sweat a little bit.
Speaker 2: Which is why I'm glad that we get to talk
Speaker 2: with career coach Marlowe Lions, because not only does she
Speaker 2: have over twenty years of experience in this field, she
Speaker 2: herself has actually been fired multiple times. Marlin oh Catha
Speaker 2: was multiple time. Sorry I don't bring that up, you know,
Speaker 2: in order to knock you, like I think This is
Speaker 2: a strength because I think this gives you a unique
Speaker 2: perspective into this position that many folks are finding themselves in. Uh.
Speaker 2: Marlowe is the author of Wanted a New Career, where
Speaker 2: she goes in depth on pivoting to a new career.
Speaker 2: She's got a new book about landing that first job.
Speaker 2: She's host of the Work Unscripted podcast, and we're actually
Speaker 2: very pumped to hear the advice that she's going to
Speaker 2: be able to share with our listeners today during our conversation.
Speaker 2: So marlow lyons, thank you so much for joining.
Speaker 3: Us, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Glad to have you, marlow first question out of the gate,
Speaker 1: we got to ask you, what do you like to
Speaker 1: support John Matt for Matt Night's. It's been craft beer
Speaker 1: for a long time. You know we have other things too,
Speaker 1: But what is that for you? What do you like
Speaker 1: to sporge on while you're still doing smart stuff with
Speaker 1: your money for your future?
Speaker 3: Okay, I gotta tell you I don't spoage on things.
Speaker 3: I spores on experiences. So last summer, my family and
Speaker 3: I went to Europe for six.
Speaker 4: Weeks, six weeks, six weeks.
Speaker 3: And toward Europe and look I mean, I did stay
Speaker 3: on points at certain places and we used points for
Speaker 3: airfare between countries and things like that, but but also
Speaker 3: stayed in a castle one night, stayed in a cave
Speaker 3: one night.
Speaker 4: Like it was.
Speaker 3: We did some really cool experiences. We did truffle hunting,
Speaker 3: cooked with our truffles afterwards.
Speaker 4: At oh, of course it was yeah outside caves.
Speaker 1: You said you slept in a cave. That right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like a cave.
Speaker 3: It's a cave hotel in Madera. It was the list
Speaker 3: experience ever. We had a pool and not not a
Speaker 3: hot tub, a pool in our room, like a pool
Speaker 3: that you could swim in the pool like in our bedroom.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 4: It was the coolest thing.
Speaker 2: I literally wrote down cave hotel.
Speaker 4: It was.
Speaker 3: We had the best time, I mean, And what was
Speaker 3: so nice is like I really got to know my
Speaker 3: kids really closely, and we had like great conversations and
Speaker 3: by the end they were getting us to the next train,
Speaker 3: they were telling us where we needed to go, you know,
Speaker 3: we're running all over Europe.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 3: It was awesome. So I'm big on experiences. So my
Speaker 3: next experience, well it's not mine, it's actually my daughter's,
Speaker 3: but we got her tickets to the Straight Kids concert
Speaker 3: in LA. She got Straight Kids, which is a K
Speaker 3: pop band. So okay, so that's her next experience.
Speaker 4: Good to know, that's what I was.
Speaker 2: All right, Marlo, let's talk about work, because I will
Speaker 2: correct myself. You haven't been fired multiple times. I guess
Speaker 2: I just read different different accounts of the same firing.
Speaker 2: It was just firing, maybe just one time, but it
Speaker 2: seemed like it was from an early job, and it
Speaker 2: sounded like that had a pretty big impact on you.
Speaker 2: Can you maybe explain how that's firing at that point
Speaker 2: in time, how that helped you to pivot? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was twenty six and I was I would say,
Speaker 3: you know, a young kind of immature, almost call myself
Speaker 3: a teenager. Still even though it was my third job, right,
Speaker 3: I was a TV news reporter and it was my
Speaker 3: third job, I still felt like, you know, I was
Speaker 3: empowered to say anything I ever wanted to say when
Speaker 3: I wanted to say it. And so, unfortunately I didn't
Speaker 3: work for a boss who you know, was trained in
Speaker 3: EQ and back then there was no EQ, right, there
Speaker 3: was no like training in these things. And so instead
Speaker 3: of like talking to me about it and wondering what
Speaker 3: was going on. And I can tell you what was
Speaker 3: going on. I got fired, and what was going on
Speaker 3: was I had been engaged and then unengaged about six
Speaker 3: months earlier. So I was pretty angry and I was
Speaker 3: pretty sad, and I was pretty like, you know, trying
Speaker 3: to figure it out. And it was showing up at
Speaker 3: work unfortunately, and there was no question about it. Just
Speaker 3: got fired. And look, I don't blame that boss at all.
Speaker 3: I thank that boss to this day. If he's ever
Speaker 3: listening to this, I literally would thank him in person,
Speaker 3: you know, not because you know that I feel like
Speaker 3: he changed my life in that moment. And what he
Speaker 3: did was he maybe kind of reflects on who I
Speaker 3: was and who I wanted to be and how I
Speaker 3: wanted to be. And it allowed me to really take
Speaker 3: control of my emotions and take control of my trajectory.
Speaker 3: And what was so interesting is that this was like
Speaker 3: when the Internet was just getting going. So yes, I'm old,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but I'm not too old. I feel like
Speaker 3: i'm thirty, so let's just go with that. But the
Speaker 3: Internet was just getting going and I was a TV
Speaker 3: news reporter and I could see once I was fired.
Speaker 3: Once I could pause for a minute. I could see, Wow, Okay,
Speaker 3: we're not going to eat TV news much longer because
Speaker 3: the Internet, right, We're going to have news on the Internet.
Speaker 3: And so it gave me a second to go, all right,
Speaker 3: what do I want to do? Do I want to
Speaker 3: do TV news forever? What am I going to do
Speaker 3: with this? And so I got back in to get
Speaker 3: out basically, and that's when I went to law school
Speaker 3: at night, and then I worked as an entertainment at
Speaker 3: Turn and then again made a pivot after that because
Speaker 3: after twelve years of that, I had had enough and
Speaker 3: moved into HR and that's when I got certified for
Speaker 3: in coaching and I loved it.
Speaker 1: Talk to me about your the first job that you
Speaker 1: went after. The gumption that you displayed getting that first
Speaker 1: job was incredible, I think, And can you talk to
Speaker 1: us about that process, because it feels like the way
Speaker 1: most people apply for jobs these days. It's kind of like,
Speaker 1: let me just send in the resume, see what happens.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it doesn't work.
Speaker 2: You didn't take that approach, No, I know what.
Speaker 4: You're referring to.
Speaker 3: I convinced my parents back in the day before cell phones, right,
Speaker 3: so they couldn't reach me at any time those types
Speaker 3: of things before computers, very few people had computers that
Speaker 3: are very expensive. I convinced my parents to allow me
Speaker 3: to drive from DC to Texas and back, and I
Speaker 3: interviewed it every TV station along the way, and back
Speaker 3: in the day there was ABCNBC, CBS, and maybe a
Speaker 3: few Foxes here and there. And I drove from DC
Speaker 3: to Alpaso, Texas and back, multiple stories in that, of course,
Speaker 3: but without a cell phone, without a computer. I had
Speaker 3: a little brotherword processor writing thank you notes as I
Speaker 3: was traveling and making phone calls trying to get meetings
Speaker 3: the day before every time I would move locations, and
Speaker 3: I came home with no job and so, but I
Speaker 3: also came home to an answering machine message from a
Speaker 3: news director that I had sent a tape to and
Speaker 3: he was in Medford, Oregon, and he said he'd like
Speaker 3: to talk to me about an associate producer job. And
Speaker 3: so I moved then from DC to Oregon for my
Speaker 3: first job. But you know the thing about that is
Speaker 3: you can't do that today, Like nobody's gonna let you
Speaker 3: in the door right at these companies. If you went
Speaker 3: and drove around and started dropping off resumes. Nobody wants
Speaker 3: to see a paper resume. They want you to apply
Speaker 3: through the applicant tracking system. But the concept of networking
Speaker 3: still exists today. The concept of meeting people, the concept
Speaker 3: of getting out of your house right, the concept the
Speaker 3: concept of reaching out to people and trying to get
Speaker 3: meet and greets and not asking for a job, but
Speaker 3: getting them to know you and asking where you can
Speaker 3: fill a gap? Right or is there anything you can
Speaker 3: do for them? Like that still exists. It's different today,
Speaker 3: but but it does exist. And I think you need
Speaker 3: to have that tenacity, and you need to have that curiosity,
Speaker 3: and you need to have that gumption, like you said,
Speaker 3: to figure out what is the strategy that's not working
Speaker 3: and how to find the strategy that will.
Speaker 2: You had a job as a producer, I think you said,
Speaker 2: an entertainment attorney, like from what I understand, like you
Speaker 2: were interviewing applicants to like the real world like shows
Speaker 2: on the TV or chopped things like that. Talk about
Speaker 2: this variety of careers that you had. I think there's
Speaker 2: a part of me that's encouraged because I feel like
Speaker 2: the all the jobs I've had, they've been go through
Speaker 2: line like related to each other. It's been quite the range,
Speaker 2: but I'm curious to hear you speak to that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is a through line, like when you think
Speaker 3: about it. First of all, there's no job you'll ever
Speaker 3: have in your life that you don't gain skills from.
Speaker 3: You will always gain skills. I don't care if you're
Speaker 3: flipping burgers, you will gain skills. And so for me,
Speaker 3: I started as a TV news reporter. I started as
Speaker 3: an associate producer. I was producing medical reports that a
Speaker 3: local doctor would voice. Then I became a reporter, which
Speaker 3: is what I wanted to do, and then I decided,
Speaker 3: you know, you heard what happened. I got fired, and
Speaker 3: so I was like, all right, I want to get
Speaker 3: out of this, Like, I don't want to do this,
Speaker 3: and I definitely don't want to be in a situation
Speaker 3: again where I'm on my own trying to figure out
Speaker 3: what to do when I get fired. So I decided
Speaker 3: I was going to go to law school at night.
Speaker 3: I always had an interest in it, and so I
Speaker 3: worked at a TV news station in Oklahoma City, and
Speaker 3: I basically worked from eight to five. I was on
Speaker 3: the four and five o'clock news doing a consumer report
Speaker 3: and then I would go to law school from six
Speaker 3: to nine at night, and then I would meet the
Speaker 3: live truck at ten o'clock for a live shot on
Speaker 3: an investigative report. And I did this for three and
Speaker 3: a half years and graduated, and then I moved to
Speaker 3: la to be a screenwriter. You can see how that
Speaker 3: turned out, although right now I do have a little
Speaker 3: script floating around Hollywood still. But that didn't so work out,
Speaker 3: but sometimes things happened. Twenty years later and then I
Speaker 3: got a job working in what's called reality diligence, So
Speaker 3: you're doing background check, psych and medical on all the
Speaker 3: reality show participants. And I worked on I worked on
Speaker 3: all of the shows that you can imagine, so NBC
Speaker 3: and then viacom So at NBC, I worked on The Apprentice,
Speaker 3: and I worked on Real Housewives when it was just
Speaker 3: starting with Teresa Goodize and all these people. And then
Speaker 3: from there, you know, I did that for twelve years,
Speaker 3: and it's amazing to talk about at cocktail parties. But
Speaker 3: after twelve years, I had had enough. I was exhausted,
Speaker 3: right so, cause remember you're dealing with people that are
Speaker 3: that are sane but barely in some in some cases,
Speaker 3: in some cases right, very colorful backgrounds, and so so
Speaker 3: then I decided I had no idea what I wanted
Speaker 3: to do. I was completely lost, and so I started
Speaker 3: trying to figure out what I could do with my skills,
Speaker 3: and that was the wrong approach. And what I was
Speaker 3: looking for was how do I just get fulfilled?
Speaker 4: Like, how do I just be happy?
Speaker 3: How do I find the thing? And the wrong approach
Speaker 3: is what can I do with what I've done. That's
Speaker 3: the wrong approach because then you're only looking at things
Speaker 3: that you have skills for, and I wasn't looking at
Speaker 3: things that would actually fulfill me. And I worked with
Speaker 3: a career coach, interestingly enough briefly, and he said, you
Speaker 3: know what lights you on fire, what gets you excited,
Speaker 3: what gets you out of bed in the morning. And
Speaker 3: I came up with a list of things, and from
Speaker 3: there I was able to figure out that I wanted
Speaker 3: to be in HR now, and that comes from wanting
Speaker 3: to help people and wanting to, you know, explain why
Speaker 3: this was the wrong move. But it's about, you know,
Speaker 3: I wanted to help people and I wanted to, you know,
Speaker 3: help people succeed in their lives and things like that,
Speaker 3: and I realized I went to get certified and coaching
Speaker 3: because every job description that I saw that resonated with
Speaker 3: me had the word coaching it a thousand times. I
Speaker 3: loved the coaching courses, loved it. It took a year,
Speaker 3: year and a half to get certified, and I absolutely
Speaker 3: loved it. And then I moved to Roku, which was
Speaker 3: my first HR job. But HR was it was a startup,
Speaker 3: like it was four hundred people. So HR was all
Speaker 3: about coaching the C suite. So I coached the head
Speaker 3: of players, the head of advertise advertising, the CFO, CMO,
Speaker 3: and general counsel. And that's all I did all day
Speaker 3: is I just coached them and their teams all day long.
Speaker 3: I loved it. I loved the job. I loved everything
Speaker 3: about it. I did ORG design and change management and
Speaker 3: I loved it. Well. Then I decided, well, you know,
Speaker 3: they don't really have an HR department, so they don't
Speaker 3: really do the other HR things like performance management or
Speaker 3: learning and development or all those things. I said, God,
Speaker 3: I really need to think about, like how am I
Speaker 3: going to get the rest of the HR experience. So
Speaker 3: I moved to Intuitive Surgical, which is a medical technology company,
Speaker 3: A phenomenal company. But I realized one thing very quickly.
Speaker 3: I wasn't coaching as much. I was still coaching at
Speaker 3: the c suite level and whatnot, but I was doing
Speaker 3: all these other things in HR.
Speaker 4: And I don't love that stuff. And you know, HR
Speaker 4: is not really.
Speaker 3: About helping people. It's about aligning people's skills and capabilities
Speaker 3: to the company goals. That's what the job is. I
Speaker 3: get that, but I was always I always like to
Speaker 3: help people. And when you're coaching somebody, whether it's how
Speaker 3: to give hard feedback or you know, how to do
Speaker 3: an org design or things like that, you're actually coaching.
Speaker 3: You are helping it away, you are helping the company.
Speaker 3: You're still doing the goal of HR, which is aligning
Speaker 3: those capabilities. But when you're doing other things in HR,
Speaker 3: it doesn't feel like you're really helping as much.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, nice. Yeah, So it all came back to
Speaker 2: helping folks on an individual level. But can we like,
Speaker 2: I guess to zoom out for a quick second, because
Speaker 2: we've and I kind of mentioned this in the intro,
Speaker 2: but we've had an incredible run of really low unemployment
Speaker 2: in the country. Yeah, but that era, it looks like
Speaker 2: it might be coming to an ad over. Yeah, as
Speaker 2: a career coach, like I would love to hear your
Speaker 2: take your current assessment of the overall labor market.
Speaker 3: Yeah. You know, when I left Intuitive, it is because
Speaker 3: they were calling people back to the office and we
Speaker 3: had moved states, and so I was petrified right afterwards
Speaker 3: to answer your question, like I thought, oh my god,
Speaker 3: I got to find another job, but this market is horrible.
Speaker 3: How am I going to find another job? And I realized,
Speaker 3: you know, I had a side coaching business for ten years,
Speaker 3: so I just went out on my own and it's
Speaker 3: been great. But this market is the probably the worst
Speaker 3: market I've seen in a very long time, probably since
Speaker 3: two thousand and eight, but it has lasted longer. This
Speaker 3: has actually been going on for well over a year.
Speaker 3: This didn't just start in January.
Speaker 1: Which is a big whiplash, a big change from what
Speaker 1: we were experiencing just a few short years ago.
Speaker 3: It is absolutely and I saw this in two thousand
Speaker 3: and eight, you know, I was coaching back then as
Speaker 3: well and again now.
Speaker 4: But this is worse.
Speaker 3: It is actually a lot worse because I think in
Speaker 3: two thousand and eight, you know, we saw all the
Speaker 3: layoffs happen, you know, with the market crash, and it
Speaker 3: lasted until about twenty ten. This has already been going
Speaker 3: on for over two years easily, and so and we've
Speaker 3: got at least another year or so of this, if
Speaker 3: not longer, depending upon you know, how the government sways, shall.
Speaker 4: We say, But it's rough, it's very rough.
Speaker 3: And I and I tell my clients that I'm like,
Speaker 3: you know, I can help you get prepared to get
Speaker 3: a job. I can do everything in my power to
Speaker 3: make sure you are capable of getting a job. I
Speaker 3: can't get you a job. And I've said that, you
Speaker 3: know for the last over a decade or twenty years
Speaker 3: that I've been doing this, And I never promise getting
Speaker 3: them job because I'm not in the interviews right I
Speaker 3: can't whisper in their ear as they're answering the question.
Speaker 3: But they will be one hundred percent prepared to answer
Speaker 3: the questions. And so and right now, you know, people
Speaker 3: need to they need to take a breath, you know,
Speaker 3: they need to take a breath, and they need to
Speaker 3: just understand that it's going to take longer if they're
Speaker 3: looking for a new job, it's going to take longer.
Speaker 3: But they are capable of getting one. There are jobs
Speaker 3: out there. It's not like there are no jobs out
Speaker 3: there at all.
Speaker 1: You're making me think of the real estate market for
Speaker 1: some reason, and how like a real turk can help
Speaker 1: you price it and they can help you talk about
Speaker 1: curb appeal and get the house ready, but they don't
Speaker 1: have control over what's happening in the overall market.
Speaker 2: Is it a buyer's market? Is a seller's market?
Speaker 1: Like? How long our listings hang out typically? And we
Speaker 1: can make sure you're on the shorter end of that
Speaker 1: if we do this, this, this, and this, but there's
Speaker 1: still no guarantee.
Speaker 2: I'm curious.
Speaker 1: So you know, you're not a personal finance expert, but
Speaker 1: you are a career coach. What are the common money
Speaker 1: concerns that you hear from clients? You talk to people,
Speaker 1: I'm sure often yeah, post layoff, what.
Speaker 2: Are they feeling?
Speaker 1: Are they like, got to get that new job stat
Speaker 1: because I don't have any cash on hand?
Speaker 2: Are what's going through people's minds?
Speaker 3: Yeah, people are, of course super concerned. Some people get
Speaker 3: exit packages, some people don't, right, some people just get
Speaker 3: laid off and they get one week severance if nothing.
Speaker 3: There is no law in this country that says you
Speaker 3: deserve a severance or you will receive a severance.
Speaker 4: So know that if you.
Speaker 3: Are employed right now and you're happy in your job,
Speaker 3: just know that there is no law that says you're
Speaker 3: going to get anything now. There might be company policies,
Speaker 3: but those can change on a whim. So you got
Speaker 3: to keep that in mind because I think a lot
Speaker 3: of people are concerned of how long it's going to take.
Speaker 3: They're concerned will their money last. And unemployment in the
Speaker 3: United States, as you know, does not pay much of anything.
Speaker 3: Maybe it'll pay for your gas that week, or maybe
Speaker 3: they won't afford eggs these days, so but it won't
Speaker 3: pay for much. And so I think they're just kind
Speaker 3: of wondering, do I have to sell my four O
Speaker 3: one K? Do I have to you know, sell other things?
Speaker 3: Do I have to sell my house? I've heard that.
Speaker 3: And then one of the biggest concerns is can I
Speaker 3: get the same amount of money I got before? Because
Speaker 3: That's what I've been living at. And I will tell
Speaker 3: you that the prices are coming down, like the salaries
Speaker 3: are coming down a lot, so like twenty thirty forty thousand.
Speaker 4: Dollars, So what you were paid before, you.
Speaker 3: May not be paid for the same job now. And
Speaker 3: also you have to consider like level, like a director
Speaker 3: in tech might make the same thing that a VP
Speaker 3: makes an entertainment right, you have to consider both the
Speaker 3: industry and also the level that you're going in at,
Speaker 3: and whether it's a startup or it's an established company.
Speaker 3: So all of those things matter. And I think they're
Speaker 3: just really concerned will I make the same amount? And
Speaker 3: the chances are you might not. So if that's your
Speaker 3: only itteria, you're going to have to open your mind
Speaker 3: a little bit more to other things and not look
Speaker 3: at it as a step back, but as a market shift.
Speaker 2: You said a yeah, you got to open your mind. Earlier,
Speaker 2: you said that you want folks to breathe or to
Speaker 2: take a breath. Yeah, are you a fan of folks
Speaker 2: taking us a sabbatical. We've We've talked with someone not
Speaker 2: too long ago about using a layoff as a potential
Speaker 2: time to reflect. And this is what I mean. It
Speaker 2: seems like this is the core of what you're saying,
Speaker 2: to figure out what is going to get you up
Speaker 2: in the morning to find that fulfilling work. But do
Speaker 2: you think sometimes that leads to a longer maybe even
Speaker 2: an intentional longer period of time where they're not working.
Speaker 3: I don't think it leads to a I mean it
Speaker 3: depends how long your sabbatical is, right, whether it's going
Speaker 3: to lead to a longer time not working. I think
Speaker 3: that a sabbatical is a great idea. And here's why.
Speaker 3: You need to process.
Speaker 4: Your emotions right.
Speaker 3: You have to sit in it, and whether you're mad
Speaker 3: or you're relieved, or whatever comes to you, you have
Speaker 3: to process it. And you have to allow yourself that
Speaker 3: time to reconfigure your mindset.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: And what I mean by that is you have to
Speaker 3: understand that you have capabilities, You are smart, You can
Speaker 3: change jobs, you can change careers. Being laid off is
Speaker 3: not a reflection of your skill set.
Speaker 4: It's not.
Speaker 3: It is a reflection of the former company's lack of
Speaker 3: proper planning during this turbulent economy, and so or it
Speaker 3: could also be a change in business strategy. The point
Speaker 3: is like, if you take a sabbatical and you just
Speaker 3: pause and stop and be off that treadmill for a minute,
Speaker 3: you might actually be able to figure out what you
Speaker 3: want to do versus what you can do. And that's
Speaker 3: what I do with my clients, as I always ask
Speaker 3: them in my very first meeting with them, I'll say,
Speaker 3: what do you want to do? And every single one
Speaker 3: of them either looks at me with a like a
Speaker 3: deer in headlights or they say, gosh, nobody's ever asked
Speaker 3: me that before. Can you imagine everybody's trying to figure
Speaker 3: out what they can do. You got to figure out
Speaker 3: what you want to do. The want is where you
Speaker 3: find fulfillment. It's not the can. Because I can't tell
Speaker 3: you how many executives I work with that are in
Speaker 3: their thirties, forties, and fifties and they've been tapped on
Speaker 3: the shoulder their entire career saying, hey, you'd be great
Speaker 3: for this job. Here's more money, and here's a higher title.
Speaker 3: Cool yay, And they are miserable. Yeah, because yes, their
Speaker 3: skills and capabilities aligned with the goals of the company,
Speaker 3: but they never aligned that with what they want, and
Speaker 3: without that, they're not happy.
Speaker 1: I mean that totally makes sense, and I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: we see a lot of people in corporate America finding
Speaker 1: themselves in that position, and sometimes the layoff is it
Speaker 1: doesn't feel like it in that moment, Just like when
Speaker 1: you got fired from your job. It didn't feel like
Speaker 1: in the moment, hey, this is probably the best thing
Speaker 1: for me. But ultimately, and from what I've seen with
Speaker 1: a lot of people around me, when they've gotten laid off,
Speaker 1: it has led to maybe a reset that has allowed
Speaker 1: them to pursue something that does light them up a
Speaker 1: bit more. One of the let's talk strategies in particular,
Speaker 1: one of the things you tell people is you want
Speaker 1: them to start writing down their accomplishment post layoff before
Speaker 1: for too much time passes.
Speaker 2: Why is that? What's that about?
Speaker 3: Yeah, they should write it in free form, right, just
Speaker 3: write it down what they accomplished, what they were successful at,
Speaker 3: what they feel they did great. And they should do
Speaker 3: it in the star method, or at least do free
Speaker 3: form first and then put it in the Start method.
Speaker 3: I call it the start method with the t that
Speaker 3: situation task achould result take away because the takeaways are
Speaker 3: what you learned from that experience, right, and how it
Speaker 3: connects when you're looking for other jobs, how it connects
Speaker 3: to those jobs. And you want to include hard and
Speaker 3: soft skills. And the reason you do that is it
Speaker 3: helps you not only reflect on how great you are,
Speaker 3: right and what goods you did and what you can
Speaker 3: do like capable. Yeah, it's an emotional booth. You're capable,
Speaker 3: you're successful, like you can bring value to a company.
Speaker 3: You're also going to need that, and you're going to
Speaker 3: need it when you are revamping your resume and you know,
Speaker 3: considering what you want to do, and when you're writing
Speaker 3: down your accomplishments. By the way, maybe put a little
Speaker 3: extra star next to the ones that really lit you
Speaker 3: on fire, because you might have an accomplishment that ugh,
Speaker 3: yeah I got through that, thank god, and it was
Speaker 3: a big deal for the company.
Speaker 4: Oh but yuck.
Speaker 3: You know, that's not something you necessarily want to pursue.
Speaker 3: But if there's something that let you on fire and
Speaker 3: you love something about it, then maybe put a little
Speaker 3: asterisk next to it, because that'll help you focus on
Speaker 3: what you want.
Speaker 2: Very cool, and yeah, maybe you should be focusing more
Speaker 2: on those projects that even your former employer may not
Speaker 2: have valued all that much. But if it gets you excited,
Speaker 2: I could see how that could lead to additional opportunities
Speaker 2: that you're pretty pumped to pursue. But yeah, you're talking
Speaker 2: about documenting these accomplishments, you're essentially taking stock of what
Speaker 2: you've done. Beyond that, though, is job hunting, and marlow
Speaker 2: We've got a lot more questions to get to about
Speaker 2: job hunting. We'll get to that right after this.
Speaker 1: Our we're back from the break where so we'll talking
Speaker 1: with Marlowe Lyons talking about what to do after getting
Speaker 1: laid off and Marlo, Yeah, you talked about we talked
Speaker 1: about some of the financial difficulties that people face and
Speaker 1: hopefully you have some sort of financial runway, whether it's
Speaker 1: from your former employer or whether it's from money you've
Speaker 1: saved up and ideally for our listeners who want them
Speaker 1: to have both. Right, but let's talk about job hunting afterwards,
Speaker 1: and taking a minute to breathe, taking some of that
Speaker 1: emotional stock makes sense. But then when it comes down
Speaker 1: to it and when you're ready to start looking for work,
Speaker 1: is is this something that you take forty hours a
Speaker 1: week to do like you did at your old job
Speaker 1: or or even more, I mean, are we like full
Speaker 1: time going after it, foaming at the mouth job hunting
Speaker 1: or are you taking a more lax approach?
Speaker 3: Absolutely not, absolutely not. This is not a forty hour
Speaker 3: week job. You are not chained to your desk. You
Speaker 3: are not chained to your computer. And I think that's
Speaker 3: super important. I'm glad you brought that up because a
Speaker 3: lot of people feel like I'm if I don't put
Speaker 3: in all the effort, if I don't work hard, I'm
Speaker 3: not going to get a job that has nothing to
Speaker 3: do with it. So no, not forty hours a week.
Speaker 3: What you should do is you should number one, know
Speaker 3: what you want to do. You cannot create a LinkedIn
Speaker 3: profile or a resume if you don't know what you
Speaker 3: want to do, because then your resume is too generic
Speaker 3: and nobody's going to understand how to connect the dots
Speaker 3: to what you want to do. So you have to
Speaker 3: know what you want to do. Then I would sit down,
Speaker 3: I would define your target roles and your companies that
Speaker 3: you're interested in. Of course, look at other companies as well.
Speaker 3: Never just limited to that. I would set yourself some
Speaker 3: daily and weekly goals. And what that does for you
Speaker 3: is that prevents procrastination. Right, Like, we could all sit
Speaker 3: here and scroll for hours, especially if we're not feeling
Speaker 3: good today, or if we're you know, kind of depressed
Speaker 3: or sad, or we're stressed or scared. But this will
Speaker 3: prevent your procrastination. I'll help you feel accomplished at the
Speaker 3: end of the week if you set a weekly goal
Speaker 3: and a daily goal of what you want to do,
Speaker 3: and those need to be goals that you can control.
Speaker 3: This is critical. You cannot control if you're going to
Speaker 3: get a job. You can control if somebody looks at
Speaker 3: your You can control if you apply to jobs right.
Speaker 3: You can't control if somebody's going to hire you, or
Speaker 3: if you're the finalist. If you're a finalist and three
Speaker 3: other people are finalists, you don't control that. You don't
Speaker 3: control who's going to get the offer.
Speaker 4: You can only.
Speaker 3: Control what you control. So you should set goals about
Speaker 3: I'm going to apply to ten jobs. If there are
Speaker 3: ten jobs to apply for, I'm going to reach out
Speaker 3: to two or three people a week and try to
Speaker 3: get meet and greets at companies that I want to
Speaker 3: work for. Here's another one that I think people forget.
Speaker 3: You need, and I mean need to be posting on LinkedIn.
Speaker 3: And what do I mean by that? I mean you
Speaker 3: absolutely must be posting either thought leadership if you're an
Speaker 3: executive in your field of which you want to work,
Speaker 3: or commenting on other people's posts. You can also forward
Speaker 3: their posts and comment. You can also write articles, you
Speaker 3: can write newsletters, You can do all sorts of things.
Speaker 3: But you must be posting on LinkedIn. And here is
Speaker 3: why the algorithm on LinkedIn. The more you post, the
Speaker 3: more visible you're going to be. You need people to
Speaker 3: see you as a thought leader and as somebody that
Speaker 3: they're like, oh, I want to work with that guy
Speaker 3: or I want to work with that girl. And the
Speaker 3: more that you post, the more that somebody out there
Speaker 3: will see it.
Speaker 4: Now, do not.
Speaker 3: Post that you hate AI and it's taking your job
Speaker 3: and you know and that how can people not want
Speaker 3: to work with real people?
Speaker 4: And you know I got laid off?
Speaker 2: Can right?
Speaker 4: Can somebody help me? And the reason?
Speaker 3: And again you can say I need help, right, Hey, network,
Speaker 3: I need help, right, But you got to tell people
Speaker 3: what you want. I want a job in this state.
Speaker 3: I'm willing to work remotely, I am willing to go
Speaker 3: into the office. I am looking for these titles. I
Speaker 3: am open to any industry. You've got to say what
Speaker 3: you want. You can't just ask for help because people
Speaker 3: don't know how to help you.
Speaker 4: So and try to keep the.
Speaker 3: Negativity to a minimum because that is a reflection on
Speaker 3: you and when things change, as they chase the office
Speaker 3: all the time, are you going to be the resistor
Speaker 3: to that change. That's how it seems. So you need
Speaker 3: to do that. And then two more things, and this
Speaker 3: is really important. It goes back to that forty hours
Speaker 3: a week thing. You must leave your home. You must
Speaker 3: go out, Go have a coffee, go for a walk,
Speaker 3: take your computer with you. You will beat people if
Speaker 3: you go to a Starbucks. And I know you can
Speaker 3: only sit there for so long these days, but go
Speaker 3: to a Starbucks. Somebody else will be there with a computer.
Speaker 3: Ask them who they are. Get curious about them. They
Speaker 3: may be working, or maybe they're maybe they're visiting from
Speaker 3: out of town, whatever the case may be. They may
Speaker 3: know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody who can
Speaker 3: help you. So you have to get out of your house.
Speaker 3: Go to every possible networking event, every possible thing that
Speaker 3: is not a networking event, meaning your friend is having
Speaker 3: people over. Don't say you don't feel like going. You
Speaker 3: never know who you're going to meet there.
Speaker 2: To get off the couch, gott your couch.
Speaker 4: Get yeah.
Speaker 3: It's just like it's kind of like dating, right, Like
Speaker 3: you're not nobody's gonna come knocking on your door, are right.
Speaker 3: You got to get out there and so and then finally,
Speaker 3: I always tell my clients you have to take care
Speaker 3: of yourself. If you like to exercise, go exercise. You
Speaker 3: need to do what gives you energy and makes you
Speaker 3: feel good, because this is going to be This could
Speaker 3: take a while, you know, depending upon your network and
Speaker 3: depending upon what jobs are out there. The higher you go,
Speaker 3: the less jobs there are. Right, there's only one CFO,
Speaker 3: there's only one CMO, right. Even vps there aren't as
Speaker 3: many vps as there are directors in lower So you
Speaker 3: have to get out there and just take care of
Speaker 3: yourself and do the thing that gives you energy and
Speaker 3: makes you feel good. It doesn't have to cost money, right,
Speaker 3: it could be a walk. It's beautiful out right now
Speaker 3: in most of the country.
Speaker 2: So it is is fascinating. I mean, going back to
Speaker 2: one of the things you're saying is to know what
Speaker 2: it is that you want. But I think there could
Speaker 2: be a lot of folks out there who have no
Speaker 2: idea what it is that they're looking for. And to
Speaker 2: that point, I've heard you mention that you are all
Speaker 2: about folks looking for interesting jobs, but not actually applying yet.
Speaker 2: It's almost like this stage of exploration where you're almost
Speaker 2: trying to like see what it is that exists that
Speaker 2: you didn't even know exists, that's out there, and so
Speaker 2: what is what does that even look like? Aside from
Speaker 2: getting off the couch, leaving your home, taking care of yourself,
Speaker 2: like going back to the like the digital world. Yes,
Speaker 2: there is real life networking that can take place by
Speaker 2: leaving home. But does this mean like perusing the job
Speaker 2: boards online just to see kind of what what strikes
Speaker 2: your fancy?
Speaker 3: No, not really, because I think you'd get lost in that.
Speaker 3: Then you can you find you wind up falling back
Speaker 3: into that. Oh I can do that. Oh I can
Speaker 3: do that. Oh I can do that. Remember you hear
Speaker 3: the word can all? I can all the cans?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: So, actually I tell people, don't look at the job
Speaker 3: boards and actually go back to what's what excites you,
Speaker 3: what gives you energy? What to pleate you, what to
Speaker 3: what to plete your energy? And those are your values,
Speaker 3: right is? Identify those things and then translate them into values, right,
Speaker 3: and what do those values meet? So let me give
Speaker 3: you give me an example here, tell me what, tell
Speaker 3: me something that excites you in your life.
Speaker 2: Matt is physical fitness buff Okay, personal finance. I mean literally,
Speaker 2: So we're not looking for jobs because we love what
Speaker 2: it is that we do. Yeah, I'm going to give
Speaker 2: you the nerdy response.
Speaker 3: Okay, so finance, so you love Okay, so you love finance.
Speaker 3: What about finance do you like?
Speaker 1: We like talking about it, we like having a take,
Speaker 1: we like helping people, and so that service helping people.
Speaker 2: Our audience stands out. Yeah, right, like anytime you're you know,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure you see this too, being a coach,
Speaker 2: being able to connect with folks and seeing their life improved.
Speaker 2: It's what I said.
Speaker 3: You love finance, you love to talk about it, you
Speaker 3: love helping people, you love service service, you know, helping
Speaker 3: other people, and you like connecting with people.
Speaker 4: Those are all values, right.
Speaker 3: So then I would dig inteach one of those and
Speaker 3: I'd say, well, you like to talk, you like to
Speaker 3: help people. What does that mean for you?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: And we dig in deep on that and I'd say, okay,
Speaker 3: you like to service people, what does that mean for
Speaker 3: you? You like to connect with other people? What does that
Speaker 3: mean for you? And you dig into that, you did
Speaker 3: deeper and deeper and deeper, and you come up with
Speaker 3: what it means, what does finance truly mean to you?
Speaker 3: And then from there you can look for jobs at
Speaker 3: align with that value of finance, because some people like,
Speaker 3: for me, I don't love finance. I do the bills
Speaker 3: and our family, and I can tell you there's nothing
Speaker 3: I hate more when the bills come in and I
Speaker 3: have to pay them and then log them, right, so
Speaker 3: and finance stresses me out quite frankly, And so I
Speaker 3: don't love finance. So you know, for me, if I'm
Speaker 3: a person who I say, oh, well, you know, I
Speaker 3: love finance because I like having money. I like having money,
Speaker 3: and I like going on vacation, that's a very different value.
Speaker 3: Then I like servicing people and helping people and connecting
Speaker 3: with folks to improve their lives. Right, So it's the
Speaker 3: same it's the same word, but it's a different value.
Speaker 3: So you have to understand. And neither of them are wrong.
Speaker 3: There's no wrong here or right. So you have to
Speaker 3: decide what does that value mean to me, and then
Speaker 3: you look for jobs that align with that value with
Speaker 3: the values that you have. Now AI is great for
Speaker 3: this for those who can't afford personal coaching, they can
Speaker 3: use AI and just say okay, I love finance because
Speaker 3: it means helping people and connecting with other people to
Speaker 3: help them improve their lives. What value aligns with that?
Speaker 3: And if you type that into AI, you will get
Speaker 3: a list of values. Then you look at the one
Speaker 3: that resonates the most, and that's what the value is.
Speaker 1: What we talked about all those CAN jobs, You're like, ah,
Speaker 1: maybe I should apply for it because I can do that. Well,
Speaker 1: what are the common excuses that you hear from people
Speaker 1: you're coaching?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: And then what do you say to them when they say, well,
Speaker 1: I can't get that job? Almost the opposite of the
Speaker 1: CAN jobs. It's like, well that sounds so awesome, but
Speaker 1: I don't have the resume to get that thing that
Speaker 1: I want. What's your responsor?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: So, too often people build resumes based on what they've done.
Speaker 3: In fact, ninety probably ninety five percent of people build
Speaker 3: their resume based on what they've.
Speaker 2: Done, which sounds intuitive.
Speaker 3: It does sound intuitive, and it's obvious, right, like, Hey,
Speaker 3: I worked at this company and here's what I did,
Speaker 3: and here are the accomplishments I did. Here's the problem.
Speaker 3: It's not a forward looking resume, meaning it doesn't align
Speaker 3: with the job that you want. It is everything you've
Speaker 3: ever done. And if you've worked in multiple different types
Speaker 3: of jobs, then there's no through line, which we talked
Speaker 3: about earlier. You need the through line, right, So, if
Speaker 3: I decide that I want to work in a specific field,
Speaker 3: everything under each job has to relate to that specific
Speaker 3: field or that specific job. And if I just have
Speaker 3: a list of things that I've done, not everything under
Speaker 3: there is going to relate. So here's an example. When
Speaker 3: I worked at Viacom, I was so proud.
Speaker 4: Of the fact that I got.
Speaker 3: A I got language in the Gang of Eight immigration
Speaker 3: bill on how reality participants could appear on camera in
Speaker 3: shows that were not competitions without having to have a
Speaker 3: visa because right now they need a visa if they're
Speaker 3: not in a competition show. And I was so proud
Speaker 3: of myself. I lobbied and I went to Washington like
Speaker 3: it was the coolest thing ever. Right, had nothing to
Speaker 3: do with my day job, but it.
Speaker 2: Was so cool.
Speaker 3: It has absolutely nothing to do with HR nothing. So
Speaker 3: it's not on my resume anywhere because it has nothing
Speaker 3: to do with it, even though it was one of
Speaker 3: my coolest accomplishments ever.
Speaker 2: Now a lobbyist, you'd stick.
Speaker 3: Out gay absolutely and the build didn't pass or anything.
Speaker 3: But you know, that's the point, Like, it's not what
Speaker 3: you've done, it's what you've done that's relevant, and what
Speaker 3: you've done that's relevant if you're especially if you're transitioning careers,
Speaker 3: may only be one percent of what you've ever done,
Speaker 3: but that's all that's relevant. And that's how my clients
Speaker 3: move from one career to another. I'll give you an example,
Speaker 3: and I hope he's okay with this. But worked with
Speaker 3: a performer on a main stage in ballet and retired,
Speaker 3: you know, in their mid to late thirties, and worked
Speaker 3: a little bit as a technical director and wanted something more.
Speaker 3: Now they work in digital account management or somewhere in
Speaker 3: the account management space. And so right, the massive swings,
Speaker 3: massive swings, right, or a twelfth grade English teacher that
Speaker 3: now works in a major MA, your major household name
Speaker 3: tech company in program management, right, because you're pulling out
Speaker 3: that one percent, that one percent that they have experience
Speaker 3: in that space, and your whole resume is filled with that.
Speaker 3: And then on top of that, your interview is not
Speaker 3: about all those other things. It is about the one percent.
Speaker 3: When you're talking about and giving stories.
Speaker 2: I'm writing so much that you're saying down like you
Speaker 2: are giving such great takeaways, Like we're talking about this too,
Speaker 2: I guess earlier we're talking about it from someone who's
Speaker 2: getting fired. But what you're speaking to now is even
Speaker 2: if you've got somebody I think who doesn't even necessarily
Speaker 2: feel fulfilled at the work that they're doing. I think
Speaker 2: there's a lot of listeners who might feel stuck, yeah,
Speaker 2: in a career because they've made a lot of progress
Speaker 2: up that specific ladder. Their earnings are great. But what
Speaker 2: have you found that snaps your clients to the ultimate reality? Like,
Speaker 2: is it basically face Is it causing them to face
Speaker 2: their mortality? Is it? I mean, like, what is it
Speaker 2: that helps folks to have the gumption to have the
Speaker 2: kind of tenacity to say no to the thing that
Speaker 2: they feel like that they're sort of handcuffed to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's courage, man. It takes courage to put away
Speaker 3: and say thank you career for the last twenty years,
Speaker 3: I'm going to go do something different. And it takes
Speaker 3: it's hard work. I tell every client how hard this
Speaker 3: work is going to be it's going to be the
Speaker 3: hardest work they've ever done, because they're looking inside themselves, right,
Speaker 3: and you're evaluating yourself and you're thinking about what do
Speaker 3: I want? And that's a really hard question to answer,
Speaker 3: but we always get to that answer. And so I
Speaker 3: think for people that are stuck in a job, what
Speaker 3: I can say to you is that you're never stuck.
Speaker 3: You really aren't. What you are is someone who doesn't
Speaker 3: have the courage at the moment to take that leap
Speaker 3: of digging into yourself and figuring out what you want.
Speaker 3: And I think that, you know, people use the word
Speaker 3: stuck or they're so busy, or they're you know, and
Speaker 3: I say busy like work, right, or busy in life,
Speaker 3: and they stay on this treadmill because guess what, it
Speaker 3: keeps them from having to actually do that hard work.
Speaker 4: It's it's a cafe.
Speaker 2: It's reliable.
Speaker 3: It's the devil, you know. You know, you're you're at
Speaker 3: the at the office. You already know how bad it is.
Speaker 3: It's the devil, you know, And I'll just stay in
Speaker 3: this or oh, I'm close to retirement, or oh i'm
Speaker 3: you know, I have three kids, or oh my health
Speaker 3: isn't great this week or this month, or I'm pregnant. Oh,
Speaker 3: I'm I can't even begin to tell you how many
Speaker 3: people reach out and say but you know, they say,
Speaker 3: I'm reaching out to you because I really want to
Speaker 3: make a change. Butt, And the butt is never a butt.
Speaker 3: It's never a real butt.
Speaker 2: They're leaving that back door open just because because they're like, hey,
Speaker 2: I kind of want to talk about this, but really
Speaker 2: I don't like, like, yeah, they're choosing not to.
Speaker 4: Choosing it's a choice. Yeah, it's a choice.
Speaker 1: On that note, like, I feel like if you get
Speaker 1: laid off, that is when the conversation is inevitable, like, yes,
Speaker 1: you gotta find something else.
Speaker 4: Push, Yes, it's your push.
Speaker 1: For a lot of people, it is that push. And
Speaker 1: I've seen, like I said, so many people go from
Speaker 1: something that they kind of enjoyed or didn't really like
Speaker 1: to something that they love, largely because they were pushed
Speaker 1: out of the security of the job they had.
Speaker 2: But what would you.
Speaker 1: Say to folks, especially like we talked out at the
Speaker 1: beginning of this episode about how the job market it's
Speaker 1: not as great as it was a few years ago.
Speaker 1: What if you're not loving your job these days, Are
Speaker 1: there good reasons to leave even in an economic downturn,
Speaker 1: and how should people think about job hopping.
Speaker 3: I would not leave unless you are independently wealthy or
Speaker 3: have a lot of money put away that you can live.
Speaker 2: Or you've got the job offer from someone else, you have.
Speaker 3: A job offer from somewhere else, exactly. I would not
Speaker 3: leave your current job until you have a new job.
Speaker 3: I would, and I wouldn't do that because the market
Speaker 3: is so tight and you don't know how long that's
Speaker 3: going to take, and less, like I said, you have
Speaker 3: the means to do that, then great. I also would
Speaker 3: not recommend right now that you try to transition careers.
Speaker 3: I think that there are you know, multiple people who
Speaker 3: are overqualified or qualified for every single job. They don't
Speaker 3: need to hire you who wants to transition careers. It's
Speaker 3: not like there's a deficit out there and they need
Speaker 3: to find somebody. So I wouldn't highly recommend trying to
Speaker 3: transition careers unless it's really close to what you're doing
Speaker 3: but a little bit different. So I wouldn't recommend that necessarily.
Speaker 3: But I do have people who are doing it right now,
Speaker 3: you know, and are working with me, and they are
Speaker 3: getting interviews and it's you know again, it's all positioning.
Speaker 3: So you know, I wouldn't recommend leaving a job. But
Speaker 3: at the same time, I also think life is too
Speaker 3: short to sit in a job that you absolutely hate.
Speaker 3: And I don't think that you can compartmentalize your work
Speaker 3: from your life. I think they both interplay with each other.
Speaker 3: And fulfillment is a holistic thing. It is not an
Speaker 3: individual thing like og, well, the rest of my life
Speaker 3: is great, so I'll just sit over here and be miserable.
Speaker 3: It just doesn't work. And so I think you should
Speaker 3: start looking and get yourself prepared and figure out what
Speaker 3: you want and put your resume together that's forward looking
Speaker 3: and start applying for jobs is what you should do.
Speaker 3: And quite frankly, network if you're not ready to go
Speaker 3: through all of that, start your networking now, And that
Speaker 3: means you don't need anything right now. You're just meeting
Speaker 3: people and you're getting to know them, and they're getting
Speaker 3: to know you, and you're learning about their work and
Speaker 3: their needs and their gaps of what they have and
Speaker 3: what they're looking for, and you are thinking about it
Speaker 3: from the perspective of your experience, and that's you can
Speaker 3: never ever underestimate your network and the people that you've
Speaker 3: built relationships with because most jobs, that's how you're getting
Speaker 3: jobs these days is who you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the network is your backbone when it comes to
Speaker 1: finding the next job. Or We've got a few more
Speaker 1: questions we want to get to with you, marlow including AI.
Speaker 1: How does that impact job hunting, both on the positive
Speaker 1: and negative fronts. We'll get to that and more right
Speaker 1: after this.
Speaker 2: We are back from the break again speaking with marlow
Speaker 2: lyons and Joela's referencing AI's The first rule of AI
Speaker 2: is to not complain about it because other people it's
Speaker 2: when you're posting on LinkedIn, but then eventually AI catches
Speaker 2: on and before you know it, you get wipe from
Speaker 2: databases left right. Who knows. I don't know how it works, Marlowe.
Speaker 2: But but before we get to that, I want to
Speaker 2: talk about landing that first job, because for younger listeners
Speaker 2: or even parents of teenagers out there, you see that
Speaker 2: internships are crucial and that high schoolers and college freshmen
Speaker 2: should be partaking. Uh to not wait until you know,
Speaker 2: like your junior year of college. Can you kind of
Speaker 2: explain the current landscape of internships these days.
Speaker 3: Yes, So internships are critical. That's where you gain experience,
Speaker 3: but you also learn what you want and what you
Speaker 3: don't want, and they are critical for trying different things.
Speaker 3: That's why you're in college is to try different things
Speaker 3: and figure yourself out and learn about yourself and learn
Speaker 3: about what lights you on fire and what makes you excited.
Speaker 3: So you want to start taking internships your freshman year.
Speaker 3: I never understood this and all the power to these
Speaker 3: kids out there that want to either be camp counselors
Speaker 3: or want to be c i ts or whatever they
Speaker 3: want to do, because they went to sleep away camp
Speaker 3: their whole you know, under you know, when they were
Speaker 3: in high school or uptill through high school, and now
Speaker 3: they come back from college and they want to go
Speaker 3: back and do that again. Unless that's what you want
Speaker 3: to do for your career, you're wasting time. Quite frankly,
Speaker 3: I don't mean to be rude. I think look, summer
Speaker 3: is for having fun, absolutely, but you can also have
Speaker 3: fun and do an internship, but you need you need
Speaker 3: to get that experience on your resume because when you
Speaker 3: don't have that first internship and you're a junior, you're
Speaker 3: not going to get the first internship.
Speaker 4: That's the problem.
Speaker 3: You have nothing on your resume, and being a c
Speaker 3: I T or a counselor isn't going to help you
Speaker 3: if you want to work in biopharma.
Speaker 2: It's just not so oh, I got yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: It's so funny is that you you are describing my,
Speaker 2: uh my summers as a college undergrad Marlowe, do you
Speaker 2: and I don't. I'm not at all upset at you
Speaker 2: for calling that because I personally agree with you. I
Speaker 2: think that the landscape has changed significantly from like twenty
Speaker 2: years ago to graduates today and the kind of effort
Speaker 2: that needs to be put forward. If you are serious
Speaker 2: about a particular career, you have.
Speaker 3: To put in the effort and know you have friends, right,
Speaker 3: your friends have parents, your parents have friends. And then
Speaker 3: there's the random application online. Okay, you need to leverage
Speaker 3: all of it, all of it to get that first internship.
Speaker 3: And it doesn't have to be full time if they don't,
Speaker 3: or it doesn't even have to be paid. It doesn't
Speaker 3: matter whether it's paid. Nobody asks you whether it was
Speaker 3: paid on your resume. It's about gaining skills and experience
Speaker 3: and capabilities that maybe you didn't have before, so you
Speaker 3: have to do it. I mean, I just worked with
Speaker 3: somebody who is in college and was looking for her
Speaker 3: first internship, and it's a friend of a friend of
Speaker 3: mine's daughter, and so we were working on, you know,
Speaker 3: her resume, which was forward looking, right, tried to make
Speaker 3: it forward looking and cleaned it up a little bit.
Speaker 3: And then on top of that, and she's had great experience,
Speaker 3: by the way, she had all these like things that
Speaker 3: she did in high school and that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: But here we are as a junior trying to get
Speaker 3: this this in first, this first big internship with a corporation, right,
Speaker 3: the big one that she wanted. And she had interviewed
Speaker 3: an over one hundred like or applied to over one
Speaker 3: hundred places and wasn't getting anywhere. And so we worked
Speaker 3: on and she'd interviewed here and there, but she wasn't
Speaker 3: landing the internship. So we worked on her interview skills
Speaker 3: to make sure it aligned, you know, with her resume
Speaker 3: and the things she needed to be talking about, and
Speaker 3: just landed her very first internship in the right job,
Speaker 3: like the one, the thing that she wanted, and she's,
Speaker 3: you know, out of her mind excited.
Speaker 4: It's about It's about.
Speaker 3: Again, understanding what your narrative is, understanding the value you
Speaker 3: can bring. You got to flip it. It's not about
Speaker 3: what you want. It's not about I want an internship,
Speaker 3: you know, or I want to come and work at
Speaker 3: your company so I can put it on my resume.
Speaker 3: Its about the value you can bring to that company
Speaker 3: during that internship. Can you solve problems? Can you communicate effectively?
Speaker 3: Can you help with you know, people who are overworked
Speaker 3: and exhausted, right, take some of the work off their
Speaker 3: plate and not be more of a burden while also learning.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's I think that's particularly true when we're
Speaker 1: talking about interns, because interns like they need their hands
Speaker 1: to be helped, at least I did when I was
Speaker 1: an intern, And so how can I be learn while
Speaker 1: I was there while also you know, being of aid
Speaker 1: to the company as well. Let's talk about AI Marlowe
Speaker 1: because you in a recent article about getting hired in
Speaker 1: the age of artificial intelligence. I'm curious from your perspective,
Speaker 1: how has like the the burgeoning sector of artificial intelligence
Speaker 1: changed the approach that job seekers need to take when
Speaker 1: it comes to trying to find a job. Is I'm sure,
Speaker 1: there are helpful elements and harmful ones.
Speaker 3: There are lots of people are using AI to draft
Speaker 3: their resume. I don't recommend that it's too generic. They're
Speaker 3: popping in, you know, the job description and they're popping
Speaker 3: in their resume and saying, you know, update my resume
Speaker 3: and it's too generic, and it's too It's just it's
Speaker 3: not crystal clear is the value you can bring to
Speaker 3: the company. And honestly, there's a lot of companies now
Speaker 3: that have screeners that can screen out AI generated resumes.
Speaker 3: So I would not recommend using AI to write your resume. Now,
Speaker 3: if you're working on a bullet point on your resume
Speaker 3: and you just you know, it can be cleaner, crisper,
Speaker 3: it doesn't sound quite like what you're you know, how
Speaker 3: you want it to sound, and you pop it into
Speaker 3: you know, Chat, GBT or whatever AI program you're using,
Speaker 3: and you say, can you help me make this sound
Speaker 3: more dynamic or sound you know more uh succinct. Great,
Speaker 3: go for it. Do that for the bullet point here
Speaker 3: and there that you need help with. But I wouldn't
Speaker 3: recommend it now. I would use AI though, to do
Speaker 3: two things. One, I would take the job to descriptions
Speaker 3: that you're interested in, and I would pop them into
Speaker 3: AI and say, pull out all of the keywords and
Speaker 3: all of the skills and capabilities that are needed for
Speaker 3: these jobs. That's number one I would do. The second
Speaker 3: thing I would do is say you want to be
Speaker 3: an HR. I would say, hey, AI, give me all
Speaker 3: of the keywords that are needed to be an HR
Speaker 3: business partner. Right, most of them are probably in the
Speaker 3: job descriptions anyway, but just in case you miss something,
Speaker 3: and I would make sure that all of those are
Speaker 3: in your resume somewhere.
Speaker 4: So that's how I would.
Speaker 1: Use Is that partly because is the keywords thing? Partly
Speaker 1: because when you submit a resume to a company, they're
Speaker 1: filtering your resume through AI in order to and so
Speaker 1: they wanted those. If those keywords are present, you're more
Speaker 1: likely to get that interview.
Speaker 3: Right, they are filtering your resume through an AI program
Speaker 3: that is looking for the best match.
Speaker 4: Not everybody has.
Speaker 3: The time to look through two thousand resumes, and so
Speaker 3: if you don't have the bare minimum match, it won't
Speaker 3: even be surfaced. And then also that goes years of
Speaker 3: experience as well, Like if you see something that says
Speaker 3: require seven years experience and you have six, don't apply
Speaker 3: because if it's a federal contractor, they can't even look
Speaker 3: at your resume because it doesn't meet the minimum requirements.
Speaker 3: So you have to at least have the minimum requirements
Speaker 3: before they'll even look at it. And really, what recruiters
Speaker 3: do is they look at the first batch of fifty
Speaker 3: that came in, then they look at the next batch
Speaker 3: of fifty and the next.
Speaker 4: Batch of fifty.
Speaker 3: And if they have five, six, seven great candidates and
Speaker 3: they screen them and they all sound great, they're kind
Speaker 3: of done. They're not looking at the last thousand resumes
Speaker 3: or the last, you know, eighteen hundred resumes. They're looking
Speaker 3: at the first ones that come in. So you have
Speaker 3: to apply early. You have to have all the keywords.
Speaker 3: You have to ensure that your resume resonates with and
Speaker 3: it aligns with and is forward looking to the jobs
Speaker 3: that you're applying for. And if you know what you want,
Speaker 3: your resume should not need to be revised with every
Speaker 3: job you apply for. Because if you want to work
Speaker 3: as an HR business partner, the job is the same everywhere.
Speaker 3: You might bring value you a little bit differently at
Speaker 3: different places, but the job is the same. So if
Speaker 3: you did it right the first time, you should not
Speaker 3: need to update it. It's when you don't know what
Speaker 3: you want that's the problem, and then your resume gets
Speaker 3: all convoluted and messy because you're updating it every week.
Speaker 4: You shouldn't have to. If you know what you want.
Speaker 2: Then it just looks like this, yeah, Frankenstein Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: as a hack housard and a quilt version of what
Speaker 2: your resume actually could be. But I like what you're saying.
Speaker 2: What I'm hearing you say is to not overly rely
Speaker 2: on AI, like, don't see it as a substitute, but
Speaker 2: certainly use it as a tool to help you to
Speaker 2: craft what it is that you're looking to put together
Speaker 2: for companies out there.
Speaker 1: Marlow, thank you so much for taking the time to
Speaker 1: join us today on the show. Where can our listeners
Speaker 1: find out more about you and what you're up to?
Speaker 3: Sure, you can find me on my website which is
Speaker 3: Marlow Lyonscoaching dot com. You can listen to my podcast
Speaker 3: Work Unscripted. I am on all the socials. You can
Speaker 3: find me on LinkedIn, on Instagram, Facebook, I sometimes I
Speaker 3: do a little bit of TikTok here and there. I'm
Speaker 3: not great on TikTok to be honest with you, so
Speaker 3: you can find me in all those different places, and
Speaker 3: you know, feel free to reach out if anybody needs
Speaker 3: any help with their career.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk
Speaker 2: with us, duday Ay Marlow.
Speaker 4: You are welcome. It was great chatting with you guys.
Speaker 1: All right, Matt, Let's hope everyone out there listening gets
Speaker 1: to keep the job they have if.
Speaker 2: They love it. Let's hope for the best, and let's
Speaker 2: also hope that if they have a plan for the worst. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Maybe, yeah, maybe this is like the kick in the
Speaker 1: pants that that some of our listeners need to start
Speaker 1: hunting for something that they're going to be more happy
Speaker 1: to go to listen.
Speaker 2: To you adopting the kick in the pants and your
Speaker 2: language of yeah, I want to let you go first.
Speaker 2: As far as the big take away, because I wrote
Speaker 2: down so much, like there's so many notes that I
Speaker 2: took and nice not one liners, but just great pieces
Speaker 2: of wisdom when it comes to looking at your new
Speaker 2: potential career out there. But I think one of the
Speaker 2: most game changing things that she said in this conversation
Speaker 2: was think about what you want to do versus what
Speaker 2: you can do.
Speaker 1: And if I were versus the can Yeah, if I
Speaker 1: look at some of my early work experience, well, hey
Speaker 1: I can work in fast food. I can do some
Speaker 1: pressure washing here and there. I mean there are just
Speaker 1: some jobs that I worked for a printer printing shop
Speaker 1: for a while, Like, those are things that I could do.
Speaker 1: There weren't things I wanted to do long term. They
Speaker 1: worked for the time, right, but I had my sights
Speaker 1: set on other things, like things that really did light
Speaker 1: me up. And so I think the further you get
Speaker 1: in your career, the harder it can be to think
Speaker 1: about your resume and to think about your next job
Speaker 1: prospect in that way. But I think it is really
Speaker 1: important because work is something we do spend a fair
Speaker 1: amount of our time in our lives doing, and it's
Speaker 1: I don't think it's that we should look for this
Speaker 1: and all be all job that helps us feel fulfilled
Speaker 1: in every single way. I mean there are other elements
Speaker 1: of our lives too that matter, family, friends, right, stuff
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: Community. But I think it's okay to say, what is
Speaker 2: it that I.
Speaker 1: Actually want to do with my life and with my
Speaker 1: forty hours or whatever that I'm giving to work each
Speaker 1: and every week and let that at least start to
Speaker 1: make your mind run wild in a good way about
Speaker 1: what's possible.
Speaker 2: Totally. Yeah. In a similar note, when she was talking
Speaker 2: about getting your resume together, she is talking about how
Speaker 2: it's not about what you've done, but it's about what
Speaker 2: you've done that's relevant to what you want to do.
Speaker 2: And I love that. Like everything that she said today
Speaker 2: had a similar melody to it, where it's very much
Speaker 2: forward looking as opposed to backwards looking. And that's essentially
Speaker 2: what you're pointing to here as well. It's not about
Speaker 2: what you've done in the past, it's about what you
Speaker 2: want to do in the future. And my big takeaway
Speaker 2: is going to be about for folks out there who
Speaker 2: have been fired. She said three things you got to
Speaker 2: post on LinkedIn, so you need to be proactive, and
Speaker 2: she talked about the algorithm and why that plays your favor.
Speaker 2: You got to leave the house, so whether it's networking
Speaker 2: or going out for coffee, like literally being out there
Speaker 2: irl brushing shoulders with people. That's going to pay dividends.
Speaker 2: But then aside from that, you got to take care
Speaker 2: of yourself as well. Figure out the things. They're going
Speaker 2: to keep your energy levels up so that you don't
Speaker 2: enter into some sort of like depressive spiral where you know,
Speaker 2: in a few months, a few months down the road,
Speaker 2: you don't even find yourself having a desire to do anything. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I felt like there was three awesome takeaways for folks
Speaker 2: who might find themselves in this position already.
Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. All right, let's get back to the beer
Speaker 1: real quick. This is called art Car I PA by
Speaker 1: Saint Arnold Brewing out of Texas. Or your thoughts on
Speaker 1: this IPA, brother.
Speaker 2: It's just funny you called me brother, and it's got
Speaker 2: like a stained glass looking I don't know, a minister, Yeah,
Speaker 2: a minister what do you call it? What do you
Speaker 2: call that kind of work, like like a priest, bishop
Speaker 2: or something. Yeah, which is funny because this is a
Speaker 2: beer out of Texas and you don't typically associate the
Speaker 2: Catholic Church with beer cans, but this brewery is called
Speaker 2: Saint Arnold, that is called I'd be curious to st Arnold. Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 2: this was like a classic American I PA. It wasn't
Speaker 2: overly bitter, It drinked really clean, It didn't have like
Speaker 2: that huge vegetable hot freshness going on. This feels like, oh,
Speaker 2: classic American IPA be really good.
Speaker 1: This reminds me of another i PA we had from
Speaker 1: Texas recently that just had that It wasn't like the hazy,
Speaker 1: juicy variety, but it also wasn't the super bitter, overwewhelmingly
Speaker 1: West Coast vibes that the rose smash. Yeah, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is this is like that. This might be a
Speaker 1: little further in the West Coast direction from that one,
Speaker 1: but it maybe Texas. Man, they're doing i pas differently
Speaker 1: and good stuff. I can respect it.
Speaker 2: Totally agree. All Right, that's gonna be it for this episode,
Speaker 2: and find our show notes up on the website, and
Speaker 2: we'll link to Marlow's recent books and where you can
Speaker 2: check those out. Of course, our website is howtomoney dot com.
Speaker 2: The Buddy. That's gonna be it. So until next time,
Speaker 2: best Friends Out, best Friends Out.