WEBVTT - Davos Bonus: "Deaths at Davos" with Thierry Mallaret

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, listeners of in the City.

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<v Speaker 3>This is David Merritt here bringing you another bonus episode

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<v Speaker 3>from our coverage at the World Economic Forum in Davos.

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<v Speaker 3>On the sidelines of the conference, I sat down with

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<v Speaker 3>Tiery Mallaree. Tieri is an economist who's worked as an

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<v Speaker 3>advisor for major investment banks and governments, and he also

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<v Speaker 3>has a long history with the World Economic Forum. He

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<v Speaker 3>founded and headed the Global Risk Network at WEF, and

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<v Speaker 3>for a number of years in succession he conceded and

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<v Speaker 3>put in place the program for the annual Davos meeting

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<v Speaker 3>where we are this week. He's also now an author,

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<v Speaker 3>known for co writing COVID nineteen, The Great Reset with

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<v Speaker 3>the founder of the Forum himself, Cloud Schwab, but also

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<v Speaker 3>some very interesting fiction more recently, including Deaths at Davos,

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<v Speaker 3>a thriller in a place loosely familiar but not actually

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<v Speaker 3>the World Economic Forum. And now we have Deaths at

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<v Speaker 3>Davos two point zero, a dark satire of what's really

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<v Speaker 3>going on within the World Economic Forum.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the City of London.

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<v Speaker 4>The City in the City of London, Man mind.

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<v Speaker 1>Between and the Financial Heart of the country, the city,

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<v Speaker 1>the city.

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<v Speaker 4>Welcome to in the city.

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<v Speaker 2>Clear of the dawn, Tierry, Welcome to in the city.

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<v Speaker 4>So good David, thank you very much.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you for spending some time in this year. We're

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<v Speaker 3>sitting in Davos. The snow is falling outside. This is

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<v Speaker 3>a place that you know very very well. Indeed, so

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<v Speaker 3>I want to come up talk about your book, of course,

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<v Speaker 3>but just dialing it back, just tell us a little

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<v Speaker 3>bit about your involvement in this place, because I want

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<v Speaker 3>to understand from your perspective, how has the World Economic

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<v Speaker 3>Forum evolved from its kind of original core mission to

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<v Speaker 3>what we have around us today.

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<v Speaker 2>Take us back to the beginning.

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<v Speaker 4>Sure, So I was an employee of the World Going

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<v Speaker 4>to Make Forum from two thousand to two thousand and seven.

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<v Speaker 4>I was first in charge of Davos for three or

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<v Speaker 4>four years, and then I created the Global Risk Network,

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<v Speaker 4>which is a publication that is issued a week before

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<v Speaker 4>DeVos measuring global risk as seen from the perspective of

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<v Speaker 4>Global CEOs members of what are Going to Make Forum.

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<v Speaker 4>And then I left, but I stayed in touch with

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<v Speaker 4>class Web and I wrote sort of books with him.

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<v Speaker 3>So Class Writer, in case anybody listening doesn't know Clausschweb

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<v Speaker 3>is the World Economic Forum, isn't he?

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<v Speaker 4>That's his creature.

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<v Speaker 2>It's his creature, his creation, absolutely hard to imagine it

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<v Speaker 2>without him.

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<v Speaker 3>Just tell us a little bit about him as a

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<v Speaker 3>figure and how important he is to this gathering.

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<v Speaker 4>Is absolutely vital to the gathering. I think this is

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<v Speaker 4>a fifty fifth edition if I'm not mistaken. So he

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<v Speaker 4>created what I going to make from fifty five years ago.

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<v Speaker 4>It's very much his creature. He's been at the Helm

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<v Speaker 4>ever since the organization was founded. Is now it is

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<v Speaker 4>six He's still in charge, He's on stage. He's still

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<v Speaker 4>on stage despite having relinquished his rule as executive chairman,

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<v Speaker 4>but is the chairman of the foundation board, which is

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<v Speaker 4>the which is a body that dictate what's going to

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<v Speaker 4>make from is all about. So yes, he's very much

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<v Speaker 4>a person in charge. That's his baby.

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<v Speaker 2>It's his baby.

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<v Speaker 3>And he still persuades people to travel from all around

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<v Speaker 3>the world. I mean this discussion about and we were

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<v Speaker 3>talking a bit about this odia, this debate about how

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<v Speaker 3>relevant is the World Economic Forum? Why travel to Switzerland

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<v Speaker 3>and anuary in the prison called is it because of

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<v Speaker 3>the the ability to actually be in person. That is

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<v Speaker 3>still necessary. Why does this meeting still have relevance today?

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<v Speaker 4>Because when I joined the Forum, the motto was still

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<v Speaker 4>very much as a driving force, committed to improving the

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<v Speaker 4>state of the world.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the message.

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<v Speaker 4>That's a state, right, I don't think it has any

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<v Speaker 4>validity any longer. Now the water can make Forum in

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<v Speaker 4>Davos and in other places has become the mother of

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<v Speaker 4>all platforms. Everybody comes because that's a place where you

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<v Speaker 4>do business. It's a fantastical efficient platform. If your business,

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<v Speaker 4>you come because you're going to meet your suppliers, your customers,

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<v Speaker 4>your regulators, the central bankers, the head of state of

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<v Speaker 4>the countries in reach' do the business. If you're the

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<v Speaker 4>head of state, you are meeting your peers, the companies

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<v Speaker 4>that do business in your country. So everybody has an

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<v Speaker 4>incentive to attend because it's remarkable efficient as a platform.

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<v Speaker 4>You meet everybody in a week.

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<v Speaker 3>But that's the incentive is efficiency. It's doing business, it's

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<v Speaker 3>doing deal. So that's quite different to improving the state

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<v Speaker 3>of the World's totally different.

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<v Speaker 4>I think improving the state of the world is become

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<v Speaker 4>you're right.

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<v Speaker 3>In the state of your balance sheet or your bottom line.

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<v Speaker 3>Should they shift it to that?

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<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, that's what that's one of the points we develop

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<v Speaker 4>in the book. You right about in the book. Absolutely

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<v Speaker 4>it's about improving the pian ling the.

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<v Speaker 2>P and L. But that's real, right, I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's very real.

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<v Speaker 4>And again, hats off to Cloud throughout and the organization

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<v Speaker 4>for having succeeded in in managing these transformations.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's not it's not a cheap thing to come to,

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<v Speaker 2>is it that us?

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, I think we're sitting in an apartment with

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<v Speaker 3>the Bloomberg studio set up here, but people are renting

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<v Speaker 3>out their apartments for huge amounts of money. That the

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<v Speaker 3>prices for the hotels are astronomical, restaurant bookings are really

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<v Speaker 3>helped to come back and getting here and being part

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<v Speaker 3>of this is an investment, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 4>It is an investment and companies come because they generates

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<v Speaker 4>a good return on the investment. Yeah, everything, as you said,

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<v Speaker 4>is obscenely expensive, expensive, and yet people come why because

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<v Speaker 4>they generated a good return.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's not just so all the stuff that happens

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<v Speaker 3>on stage, you know. So there's the conference center, Klaus

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<v Speaker 3>Schwab holding Court, World Leaders Business titans conducting conversations. It's

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<v Speaker 3>all the stuff that happens outside the confent center, isn't

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<v Speaker 3>It's the parties, It's the drinks parties. I mean, I've

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<v Speaker 3>just been here. You know, it's Thursday today. All week

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<v Speaker 3>the chatter is around what things are people getting invited to.

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<v Speaker 3>Every corporation, every organized it seems to be hosting some

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<v Speaker 3>sort of party. Has that always been the case? Has

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<v Speaker 3>it always been about the kind of the networking and

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<v Speaker 3>the kind of the late case.

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<v Speaker 4>When I was when I was in Toroid of Davers

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<v Speaker 4>or twenty years ago, things were about one thousand private

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<v Speaker 4>events on the on the margin of the official event.

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<v Speaker 4>Today it's very hard to measure this number, but you know,

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<v Speaker 4>talking to different people this week, the tell needs could

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<v Speaker 4>be between anything between two three and five thousand, wow,

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<v Speaker 4>which I believe is real. For example, on Monday, I

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<v Speaker 4>went to what I think is the most important for me,

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<v Speaker 4>a private event in Doubles, which is a bit broader's dinner.

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<v Speaker 4>So everybody who has an interest in Russia, which is

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<v Speaker 4>my case, tends to participate in this private event. But

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<v Speaker 4>Deal doesn't pay anymore. It is not a white badge

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<v Speaker 4>because he's saying that it's not interesting for him to

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<v Speaker 4>do so, but he has this remarkable dinner. And so

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<v Speaker 4>every night you have got loose how many hundreds of dinners,

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<v Speaker 4>not only doubles, in clusters in in Urich.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, And that's that's the that's the HoTT a ticket,

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<v Speaker 3>right to get an invite to one of these dinners

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<v Speaker 3>where you will meet and have a sort of insight

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<v Speaker 3>and conversation that actually is going to serve be better

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<v Speaker 3>than going and listen to someone talking the conress.

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<v Speaker 4>And every private company present in Douvos has its own dinner,

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<v Speaker 4>lunch or or whatever it may be.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and just to explain if anyone does said, the

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<v Speaker 3>bad system is this is the this is the sort

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<v Speaker 3>of the pecking order at Davos.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. The white badge is.

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<v Speaker 3>The much coveted white that's for the one percent zero

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<v Speaker 3>point one percenters, isn't it. So that's the CEOs, the

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<v Speaker 3>my boss, he had a wie, and then you have

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<v Speaker 3>the loadly hacks like me with an orange badge. Basically

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<v Speaker 3>that's the media.

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<v Speaker 2>So there are these.

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<v Speaker 3>Different because I'm a badge, but you don't feel you

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<v Speaker 3>need one, right because I can come here. Actually it's

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<v Speaker 3>peripheral to Actually, you don't need to go into the

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<v Speaker 3>conference center.

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<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, so many hungers on like me.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, so you're at the bills ro out of dinner.

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<v Speaker 2>So it sounds like you were right where you needed

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<v Speaker 2>to be.

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<v Speaker 4>Absolutely.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's talk a bit about your book series. So I'm

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<v Speaker 2>so fascinated by this.

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<v Speaker 3>You worked at the web for years, you have been

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<v Speaker 3>very much an insider in this institution and its growth,

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<v Speaker 3>and you've written a book where we've got your second

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<v Speaker 3>book novel here. First one, Death's at Davos. We now

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<v Speaker 3>have Deaths at Davos two point zero. Tell us about

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<v Speaker 3>the story. It's a thriller set at this forum. Tell

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<v Speaker 3>us about the idea and what happens to the book.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, first of all, a word of warning, it's a

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<v Speaker 4>it's a fictional place because the thriller takes place at

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<v Speaker 4>the annual gathering organized by a circle.

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<v Speaker 2>And okay, so this is not we're not talking about.

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<v Speaker 4>But it takes place. It's a thrillers to be granted

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<v Speaker 4>in reality, and because I was part of the WEF,

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<v Speaker 4>I understand the function because this gathering, so that the backdrop.

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<v Speaker 4>But again it's not about the Web. So the idea

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<v Speaker 4>is to explore in a thriller. First of all, what's

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<v Speaker 4>happening behind the scenes of Dabos, And there is a

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<v Speaker 4>lot happening. A lot happening is that nobody sees the

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<v Speaker 4>sex parties, for example, and I describe one of them

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<v Speaker 4>in the book. A lot of these happens is happening.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, everything closes in principle at any MPM NPM

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<v Speaker 4>and then a huge amount of happens, more happens, So

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<v Speaker 4>you want to go behind the scene to get a

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<v Speaker 4>sense of what's happened. And also that's my thick thriller.

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<v Speaker 4>So I eve an appetite thrillers. And I think that

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<v Speaker 4>when you write fiction you are bound by nothing except

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<v Speaker 4>the power of your own imagination. So you know, instead

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<v Speaker 4>of writing an essay of what the global gathering is

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<v Speaker 4>all about and what's happening, I think thriller opens many,

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<v Speaker 4>many doors that you wouldn't be able to explore otherwise.

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<v Speaker 4>And this is a spy thriller because there is such

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<v Speaker 4>a usefu concentration of power in Davos, financial power, political power,

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<v Speaker 4>economic power, media power. Let's think about how enticing this

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<v Speaker 4>may be for intelligence services. And this is what this

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<v Speaker 4>book explores through the lens of what's happening between the

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<v Speaker 4>US and Russia at the moment. So the idea was

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<v Speaker 4>really to figure out what Trump is going to do

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<v Speaker 4>to intelligence services in the US and how this might

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<v Speaker 4>affect the geopotical order in the months to come, right,

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<v Speaker 4>And I don't want to say more than that, right

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<v Speaker 4>and doubt.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it is perfect as a setting for a

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<v Speaker 2>story like this, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 3>And of course if you're walking around the town, you

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<v Speaker 3>can see we're in the Congress Center yesterday with the

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<v Speaker 3>Ukrainian presidents and Lenski John Mcthread and Chief did an

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<v Speaker 3>interview with him. There are snipers on the roofs, there

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<v Speaker 3>are helicopters overhead, the security is palpable. That sort of

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<v Speaker 3>sense of tension is there because of the people that

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<v Speaker 3>are walking around. So it is not a huge stretch

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<v Speaker 3>of imagination to go from that to think what's going on.

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<v Speaker 4>But you know, you couldn't write an essay or an

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<v Speaker 4>article in the journal about it, because by virtual intelligence

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<v Speaker 4>is about what you don't know. If you know about it,

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<v Speaker 4>it's not intelligence anymore. So you can only explore this

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<v Speaker 4>via the novel. Yes, it's thriller, and this is what

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<v Speaker 4>I'm trying to do in this book.

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<v Speaker 2>And stress completely factionalize everyone out there.

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<v Speaker 4>Well in fiction, but grounded in reality.

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<v Speaker 3>In reality, in reality, because hey, I guess the serious

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<v Speaker 3>side is is there are serious implications for the conversations

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<v Speaker 3>that are happening here that affects the one percent of people.

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<v Speaker 3>There are big problems happening in the world, there are

0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.319
<v Speaker 3>conflicts happening in the world, and you have the power

0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.040
<v Speaker 3>brokers of the planet convening here in this place. So

0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:42.240
<v Speaker 3>this idea that there's this kind of underbelly of activity

0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:43.599
<v Speaker 3>here is quite compelling.

0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.599
<v Speaker 4>Very much so. And again, you know, so much is

0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:51.160
<v Speaker 4>happening in this underbelly. Yeah, there is what everybody sees,

0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.160
<v Speaker 4>and you report wonderfully about this, and then there is

0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.000
<v Speaker 4>what's happening in the underbelly, which is probably even more

0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.840
<v Speaker 4>significant because selection, as we can see this week, is

0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:05.320
<v Speaker 4>going to change everything in the US and in the

0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:06.080
<v Speaker 4>rest of the world.

0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.560
<v Speaker 3>And it's been certainly this week. It's felt to me

0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:13.000
<v Speaker 3>like it's the conversations that aren't happening on the stage,

0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.440
<v Speaker 3>the conversations that no one really is willing to have

0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.640
<v Speaker 3>in public because everyone has been watching actually what's been

0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.400
<v Speaker 3>happening in Washington this week, of course, so that he

0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:25.640
<v Speaker 3>has really heightened this sense of the action happening slightly

0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:30.000
<v Speaker 3>off stage here and everyone watching and waiting to see

0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:32.440
<v Speaker 3>what the new present's going to do. We all know

0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:34.680
<v Speaker 3>that he's doing a lot, and it's going to affect

0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.800
<v Speaker 3>the businesses, the economies, the countries that are represented here

0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.800
<v Speaker 3>this week, but it's all slightly out of their control,

0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:43.440
<v Speaker 3>which feels a little bit unusual for the power brokers

0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:44.240
<v Speaker 3>who are here as well.

0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:46.200
<v Speaker 2>You know, they don't like it particularly.

0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:49.760
<v Speaker 4>No, absolutely, and you said before we started this interview

0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:54.319
<v Speaker 4>that there was a sentiment that Europe is very fearful

0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.120
<v Speaker 4>about the future. And this is what his book explodes

0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.480
<v Speaker 4>in particular, because there's so many reasons to assert that,

0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.960
<v Speaker 4>you know, geopolitically, economically, financially, Europe is going to be

0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:09.600
<v Speaker 4>increasingly vulnerable in the years to come. And you saw

0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.440
<v Speaker 4>it by interviewing. I mean, when it's viewing the European leaders,

0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:18.240
<v Speaker 4>everybody is guarded. Everybody is incredibly careful about what they're saying.

0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:19.680
<v Speaker 2>They don't want to get on the wrong side.

0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.520
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, not because it's sure in trouble, but.

0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:25.480
<v Speaker 3>Also you know, the other thing I've you know, we've

0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.320
<v Speaker 3>heard this this week as well, is they fell Europe's

0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.960
<v Speaker 3>being left behind, the American economy, the American companies. They

0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.080
<v Speaker 3>are galloping away over the horizon. There doesn't seem to

0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:36.680
<v Speaker 3>be any solutions to the problems that the structural problems

0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:37.400
<v Speaker 3>that you have got.

0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.640
<v Speaker 4>And it feels even more personally, there might be an

0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:45.680
<v Speaker 4>upside when Europe is is stuck with its back against

0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:50.760
<v Speaker 4>the wall. Maybe at the moment when yeah, absolutely, policies

0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:55.560
<v Speaker 4>will be put into place and europeut investment into defense

0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:56.520
<v Speaker 4>and the you.

0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Know, GDP part of that's going to be the hope, right.

0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.560
<v Speaker 4>Defense spending with increase and because it would be forced

0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:05.320
<v Speaker 4>to do that, and.

0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.200
<v Speaker 2>Then maybe they will be improving the said of the world.

0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:08.040
<v Speaker 2>Is that going to be the way?

0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:14.560
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, as we saw this year, things changed incredibly fast,

0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:21.760
<v Speaker 4>incredibly Everything that's happened this week was unimaginable last Yeah.

0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:24.400
<v Speaker 3>I mean it really was, right, it was. I mean,

0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.600
<v Speaker 3>I think there was there was definitely a sense of

0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.880
<v Speaker 3>foreboding about political shifts last year. But you're right, I

0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:35.280
<v Speaker 3>feel like the conversation last year had none of the

0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:37.840
<v Speaker 3>angles that we're that we're that we're that are at

0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:38.640
<v Speaker 3>the forefront this year.

0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:40.960
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, and here we are and here we are.

0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.360
<v Speaker 3>So what's next, Tierry? Are you are we gonna have

0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:44.080
<v Speaker 3>a three point zero?

0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:49.280
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, the whole fantastic opportunity right the next one.

0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:50.920
<v Speaker 2>So next year there will be more deaths.

0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.920
<v Speaker 4>That that was absolutely, of course.

0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:55.600
<v Speaker 2>I look forward to I look forward to reading that.

0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.200
<v Speaker 3>Serian maller I thank you so much for telling us

0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.520
<v Speaker 3>about your book and and with your history with this forum,

0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:02.880
<v Speaker 3>and maybe we could come back next.

0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.240
<v Speaker 2>Year, And thank you.

0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.400
<v Speaker 3>Thanks for listening to this bonus episode of In the

0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.440
<v Speaker 3>City from Bloomberger. It was hosted by me David Merritt.

0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:21.480
<v Speaker 3>It was produced by Somersadi and Moses and sound design

0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:24.800
<v Speaker 3>is by Blake Maples and Brendan Francis Newnham is our

0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:29.320
<v Speaker 3>executive producer. Special thanks to Tierry Mallarey. Please do subscribe, rate,

0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:31.960
<v Speaker 3>and review wherever you listen to the podcast.