1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's give a shout out to our 4 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: super producer, the one and only mister Max white Pants Williams. 5 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: Who Rah and guy that write that time, Ben, I 6 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:45,959 Speaker 2: didn't say who uh or no, No, there's. 7 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: A tsky We got it, we got it. We're working live. 8 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: I really thought I was getting it right here. Who 9 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 2: rah just embedded in my mind. 10 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: It's a good thing to yell. It's a hussah for 11 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: you know, situationally dependent hussah. 12 00:00:57,800 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 3: We are period accurate. 13 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: We are also we are also so excited, so fortunate 14 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: to be returning to part two of trade Craft Puzzles 15 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: with our good friend member of the Ridiculous History Expanded Universe, 16 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:18,199 Speaker 1: none other than the author, the now podcaster, the thought leader. Uh, 17 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: mister A. J. Bahamas Jacobs aj. You said off air, 18 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: you said, guys, I got an intro for part two 19 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 1: of this, and then you. 20 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 3: Started really sinister like you did. 21 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: There were some ellipses that we could hear, and then 22 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: and then you, uh, you're a brilliant, very kind in person. 23 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: So you started telling Nolan and I like, Nolan me 24 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: rather what uh what the intro would be like? And 25 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: we both immediately I apologize for this. We both immediately 26 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: vetoed that. 27 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 3: Extra jut throat us. We were we. 28 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: Were like, just do it on air. So so we 29 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: must we must uh pass the order of operations to you, 30 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: dear friend wield. 31 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll yield to you as some sort of overlord. 32 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 2: Sure so uh utah Mulberry's side, how are we getting 33 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: into this part of the conversation. 34 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 4: Well, this is sort of a continuation of our episode 35 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 4: on spying and puzzling. And while we were on break, 36 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 4: I had remembered that a few years ago I have 37 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 4: been poking around the CIA, the official CIA dot gov website, 38 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 4: like you do, just to make sure that they know 39 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 4: I'm here, and they and there's a kids corner. There 40 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 4: is a whole section called Spy Kids. And I went 41 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 4: to see just now if it was still there. 42 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 3: It's not. 43 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 4: It's bigger, it's more expanded, so I and it's all 44 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 4: these puzzles and games. 45 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 3: Is it also. 46 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 4: Is a little bit of a recruitment tool and I 47 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 4: actually had a it was kind of fun. I mean, 48 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 4: some of them are very basic. There's a word search 49 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 4: where kids can look for asset and surveillance and mission. 50 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 3: There's kids kids food menu kind of stuff, you know, yeah. 51 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 4: Kids food menu. There's a jigsaw you put together and 52 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 4: it's the Seal of the CIA. But actually one that 53 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 4: you should check out was I enjoyed. It was called 54 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 4: Aerial Analysis, and it's a picture of port with some ships, 55 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 4: and it's a bunch of questions like what time is it? 56 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 4: Is it noon or is it six pm? And I 57 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 4: was like, and then it was six pm because of 58 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 4: the long shadows. So it's actually it was you know, 59 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 4: if I were a cats make. 60 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: Just in my head, I thought that was the CIA 61 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 2: outsourcing aerial photographs of like picking out assets to children. 62 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: Is also shout out. You'll find this of interest AJ, 63 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: if you're not already aware. I recently learned a few 64 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: weeks back that the CIA has a long running extracurricular 65 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: creative writing group staffed like I shouldn't say staffed, but 66 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: everybody in the group is an active member of the CIA. 67 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: The name of the group. What you're gonna love is 68 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: get this invisible ink. 69 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 3: Oh that's nice. And the stories are nine ciphers. 70 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: They're all in code. Yeah, yeah, they're they're the club discussion. No, obviously, 71 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: I can never tell you their their book Club discussion 72 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: is all in code. They We do know that the 73 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: CIA does love puzzles, like any any kind of intelligence 74 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: operation worth its salt. Ciphers are a part of the business, 75 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: a part of the craft. And when we left off 76 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: in episode one, we're talking a little bit about, uh, 77 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: the ancient history of trade craft, a little bit about crosswords, 78 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: and then you led Nola and I through a rabbit 79 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: hole on times crosswords went wrong, and we ended with 80 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: an extremely fascinating thing that history has yet to figure. 81 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 4: Out right, And this episode we are going to get 82 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 4: to my visits to the CIA headquarters to try to 83 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 4: crack one of the most famous unsolved puzzles ever. But 84 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 4: first let me just do a couple of more nuggets 85 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 4: on this fascinating crossover between spies and puzzles. And we 86 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 4: had mentioned in last time about some World War two puzzles. 87 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 4: There's one more World War two puzzle that we should 88 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 4: talk about, which is that the Nazis actually tried to 89 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 4: use crosswords for evil. 90 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 2: So what yes, nineties doing evil stuff? The humble crossword? 91 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 4: I know they will not even lave a own the crossword. 92 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 4: This was nineteen forty five and Nazi planes flew over 93 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 4: London and dropped leaflets containing crossword puzzles that had propaganda answers. 94 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 4: So the answers were anti us, anti ally. So, for instance, 95 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 4: one of the clues was he wants all You've got 96 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 4: and the answer that was the clue. The answer was Roosevelt, 97 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 4: so they were saying he and The New York Times 98 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 4: described the clues as feeble and heavy handed. 99 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 3: Oh that is such a New York Times roussy. I 100 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 3: love it especially. 101 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: I love that, especially given that that you taught us earlier. 102 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: The New York Times was a prominent anti crossword institution 103 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: for some time. And now they may better. 104 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, and they show, yeah, they are better than 105 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 4: the Nazis at making crossword puzzles. 106 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 3: I love that. 107 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, they just slammed the not only the Nazis are 108 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 4: the most evil people. 109 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: But. 110 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: Constructed crosswords. That's and really, isn't that the great villainy 111 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: of the Nazi part? No one in fact check us 112 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: on that one. But the there's there's another thing on 113 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: the break. This reminded me of of a great a 114 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: great sequence in fiction, first in novels, but then later 115 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: in film adaptations. Uh, in the Silence of the Lambs series, right, 116 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: Silence of the Lamb where they follow they follow the 117 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: more of the quint essential serial killer figures of American literature, 118 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: Hannibal Lecter, and we learn that Lecter is communicating with 119 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: a serial killer named the Red Dragon or once we 120 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: called the Red Dragon through personal through essentially a cipher 121 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: where they're taking out back when people used to read, uh, 122 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, print magazines and newspapers, taking out classified ads 123 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: which contain coded meanings. Yeah, I think they were classified. 124 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: I can't remember, but. 125 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, either cloud one of those things you can pay 126 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: a couple bucks to put a little tiny graph, you know, 127 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 2: in the back of the newspaper. Even in the Silence 128 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 2: of the Lambs, that that was the Red Dragon that 129 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 2: was read sounds to the Lambs he does, you know, 130 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 2: He feeds Clarice Starling a few kind of incorrect clues 131 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: that are actually themselves ciphers, like miss Moffetts or something 132 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 2: like that, and I forget it's to translated like it's 133 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 2: an anagram for something. And then one of them is 134 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 2: an anagram or I believe the cipher for pyride for 135 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 2: fools gold, and it's basically showing that they're barking up 136 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 2: the wrong tree if I'm not mistaken. 137 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 4: Well, speaking of classified ads, that reminds me in the 138 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 4: Victorian England in the eighteen hundreds that was huge. Lovers 139 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 4: would send secret messages through the classified ads. They'd put 140 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 4: these ciphers in the ads. It was sort of like 141 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 4: the sexting of the time, but he had to encode 142 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 4: it just a little healthy. They were not that I've 143 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 4: I've read a bunch of them, and h there are 144 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 4: things like I have the most handsome horse in the land, 145 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 4: now I need the most handsome lady. 146 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 2: That kind I write that probably get results. 147 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, Also that that feels like you have given us 148 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: a lead on a great uh on a great future episode. 149 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: Right the precedents for sextem you've been around for so long? 150 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 3: Who was it the writer who wrote all those gnarly 151 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 3: lovely Joyce? James Joyce? 152 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, a great episode. 153 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 3: On him wealthy. 154 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: He wrote some of some of the best literature in 155 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: the English language, and then he also wrote Finn against Wake. 156 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: But he also how do you really feel about Jesus anyway? 157 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 3: But it was a fart poet. Yes, turns out love. 158 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 4: They were amazing. They were Yeah, I was astounded. That 159 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 4: is Yeah, maybe my favorite writing by Teams joy. 160 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: That's where Cynasthasia really comes to bear. 161 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 2: Flippity floppity never mind, Oh gosh, yeah that Uh. 162 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: Substitute teachers listening in the crowd, any high school teacher 163 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: who might be thinking it's time to take the day 164 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: easy and play an episode of ridiculous history for your students, 165 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: It is not the James Joyce episode unless you wish. 166 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 3: To be bold, unless your students are very mature. 167 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what that would interest the students. I mean, 168 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 4: that is a way to get kids into James Joyce 169 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 4: our poetry. 170 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: You guys might hate novels, but who likes farts? 171 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 4: Uh? 172 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 3: Why do we have sexy farts? Aha? But you never 173 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 3: thought that was a thing there. 174 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: It is, so got a lot to learn, kids, So 175 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: the there's an interesting thing that we should just we 176 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 1: should spend one moment on here, which is that perhaps 177 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: the reason the propaganda crossword bombing failed is due to 178 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: the act that by nineteen forty five, the nomenclature of 179 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 1: clues and crosswords had already been pretty well established, right, 180 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: Like if you are just all things aside, just objectively, 181 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: you're playing a crossword. The clue he wants all you've 182 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: got sounds incredibly misleading. There is not a way logically 183 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: to like a is yourself into Roosevelt there. 184 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 2: That is a good point, or you know it definitely 185 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: any more broad like God or like Jesus or something, 186 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like even that would be 187 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: a pretty lazy clue, right, Yeah, well that's specificity. 188 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 4: It reminds me they weren't the only ones who did propaganda. 189 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 4: The New York Times also ran an article about in 190 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 4: nineteen fifty. So now we're in the Cold War and 191 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 4: the Soviet Union was trying the same trick where they 192 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 4: would produce these crosswords and spread them around us with 193 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 4: anti US propaganda and their clues. I don't think we're 194 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 4: much better. Well, you know what, take it back. This one, 195 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 4: you could almost say is half witty. The clue is 196 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 4: what is General MacArthur's concept of a courtesy call? And 197 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 4: the answer is a four letter word raid. 198 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 2: So they're gonna say bomb, but like we were, Yeah, 199 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 2: those are both good, So. 200 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 4: There you go. 201 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 2: So it sounds a little feeble and heavy handed to 202 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 2: the New York Times. Ah yeah, try harder, yeahdition out, 203 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 2: but you can't take it New York Times. 204 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 4: Oh no, no, that wasn't the Times. That was a 205 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 4: Soviet Union crossword puzzle maker being mentioned in the New 206 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 4: York Times. 207 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: At that point, The New York Times is clearly has 208 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: clearly done a one eighty on their previous anti crossword stance, 209 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: and now they're like, crosswords are one of the most 210 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: important American cultural institutions. 211 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 3: And we will one day be intrinsically linked to the 212 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 3: concept of the crossword puzzle. These are New York Times. 213 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 3: It is odd we're taking we. 214 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: Are super good at the thing we. 215 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: Hated inevitably become the thing you hate. You know, it's 216 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 2: just well, that's. 217 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: That's like a Nietzschean observation thing. 218 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 3: I know, it's not true. It doesn't have to be true. 219 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be. 220 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 1: Folks, we have your back, and we also we also 221 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: have maybe a moment here before we get to like 222 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: our big star. 223 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 3: Of the day. 224 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: The hence this up to now unsolvable puzzle of the CIA. 225 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 3: Uh. 226 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: There are so many Cold War shenanigans. I love that 227 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: you're mentioning the Cold War aj because this is back 228 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: in the time. This is like the looking at old 229 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: spycraft or trade craft. At this time we see again 230 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: the Seinfeld problem. 231 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 3: Right. 232 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: The number one criticism of Seinfeld, which Noel and I 233 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: talked about all the time off air, is that many 234 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: of the many of the plots the gang gets involved 235 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: in could easily have been solved if they had cell 236 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: phones and the trade craft. In this time, from the 237 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: fifties to let's say the early eighties, everything a lot 238 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: of things were still analogue. So these are the days 239 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: of weird code words, which are like another puzzle, right. 240 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 4: Yes, well, now we do have computers and high speed computers. 241 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 4: They haven't cracked everything, though they've held there's the famous 242 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 4: one of the most famous unsolved puzzles are the Zodiac killers. 243 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 3: In Zodiac Thank you. 244 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: If we didn't get there, I was going to bring 245 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 2: it up, please, Sally Forth. 246 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 4: So, yeah, this was a serial killer in the seventies. 247 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 4: I'm not an expert on it, but he he sent 248 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 4: a lot of letters with codes to the police with 249 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 4: clues and several of them were unsolved. But last year, 250 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 4: just last year, there was a group of people who 251 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 4: solved using computers along with people. It was sort of 252 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 4: a a nice meshing of humans and computers that was 253 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 4: able to crack this. And part of the reason why 254 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 4: it was so hard to crack is this guy was terrible. 255 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 4: He made all of these mistakes. No, it's not consistent, 256 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 4: and so yeah, terrible person for killing and for also being. 257 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 3: You exactly. 258 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 4: I'm taking a stand. 259 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 2: You know, the Zodiac film by David Fincher, I think 260 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: is one of his finest films and I rewatch it 261 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: just about every year, and it deals with a lot 262 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: of the stuff and the you know, the guy that 263 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 2: ultimately goes on to kind of write the book about 264 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 2: the whole thing, which is named Gray Smith, I believe, 265 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 2: played by Jake Gillenhall. He's the one who's like a cartoonist, 266 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 2: you know, working for the San Francisco Chronicle who starts 267 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 2: kind of solving these ciphers and it's because he's a 268 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 2: puzzle nerd. 269 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 3: He's like that this is like his his wheelhouse. 270 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: You know, he just does crosswords for fun and then 271 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: he ends up kind of being the one that sort 272 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 2: of pushes that stuff forward. But I do love the 273 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: idea that he just made tons of mistakes. That's really funny. 274 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: And I love the point about the necessity for hybrid 275 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: problem solving concurrently because right now, and shout out to 276 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: the Puzzle Palace, of course, right now, there are tremendously 277 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: robust algorithms and other computerized approaches that can tackle puzzles 278 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: and codes very very well. However, those are those are 279 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: still not going to be able to get you across 280 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: the fence on their own one hundred percent of the time. 281 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: We know, like I'm thinking back in the days of 282 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: analog trade craft. One thing, like there are two examples 283 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: that still always work when deployed correctly, even in this 284 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: the Amazing Future twenty twenty four. One of them would 285 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: be numbers stations, right, and related to number stations, there's 286 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: the other code, which is the thing that requires you 287 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: like it's a descendant of the Caesar cipher, the Arnold cipher. 288 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: You have a one time code book that you have 289 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: to hear and right, that's how the that's the other 290 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: end of the key es, yes, yeah, and without that 291 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: you are a drift. There is no there is simply 292 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,719 Speaker 1: no way to solve those things unless you have that 293 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: that old school crypto key, right, shout shout out. 294 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 4: To bitcoin and the number stations is that's the one 295 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 4: where they just list off seemingly random numbers all day 296 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 4: long and no one has actually solved. Yes, is that right? 297 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 1: Yes, that is absolutely correct. It is related to USSR 298 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: now Russian intelligence activities abroad. It may be related to 299 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: the so called dead hand system, which is, you know, 300 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: deploying all the nukes at once. If let's just let's 301 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: play yeah, let's play one clip so everybody can hear 302 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: at number station. 303 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 4: N five two eight run five seven two. 304 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: Run five. 305 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 2: Egg. 306 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:19,959 Speaker 3: It's such a creepy thing. 307 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: And I'm pretty sure that Lost, the folks behind Lost, 308 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 2: used that sort of mysterious idea of transmissions, you know, 309 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 2: for some of the uh, the radio signals that are 310 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 2: intercepted by the Islanders if anyone remembers Lost. 311 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 4: Are there any theories that it's just a total hoax 312 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 4: and some guy is just reading numbers in to waste 313 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 4: all of these people's time. 314 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: There are definitely, uh, there are definitely some clear like 315 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: copycat guys. There's some you know, ham radio enthusiasts who 316 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: just have a lonely you know, Saturday night and hop 317 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: on and say some stuff but but in general, I 318 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 1: think for our purposes here, uh, this is illustrative of 319 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: one of the big differences between a puzzle and tradecraft, 320 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: or a code and tradecraft, and a puzzle in popular media, 321 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: which is that if you are propagating a puzzle in 322 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: popular media, you want people to be able to solve it, 323 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: and some of these tradecraft things simply do not have 324 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: an answer by design. And this is what leads us to, 325 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 1: uh to the legendary the legendary puzzle known as cryptose 326 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: with a case. 327 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 4: Exactly because it sort of straddles both of those sides. 328 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 2: That's like the name of the last boss in the 329 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 2: puzzle video game. Yeah, now you must face cryptos. 330 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 4: It's like, yeah, yeah, it's a little you know, this 331 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 4: was back in nineteen eighty eight, so maybe it seemed 332 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 4: a little spookier back. 333 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 3: And they probably seen some Transformers cartoon, but. 334 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: They like, okay, so AJ, can you introduce us to 335 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: cryptos Because one thing people want to be clear here. 336 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: You might have heard us talking about this and you 337 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: might think that the CIA said, well, we've solved most 338 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: of the puzzles, but there's this one that we have 339 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: no idea about, and it might surprise folks to realize 340 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: that the CIA themselves asked for this puzzle. Is that correct, right? 341 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 3: Are you cryptos. 342 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 4: The thorn in their side? 343 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: It really is. It's the self created it's exactly commissioned thorns. 344 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 345 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 4: Well, this was the end of the Cold War nineteen 346 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 4: eighty eight, and they the CIA, they have a portion 347 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 4: of their budget, like all government agencies, for art, so 348 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 4: they commissioned what turned out to be one of the 349 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 4: greatest unsolved puzzles of all time, and it's a sculpture. 350 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 4: They commissioned a sculpture from an artist named Jim Sanborn, 351 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 4: and they teamed him up with a retiring cryptographer from 352 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 4: the CIA, and they teamed up and created this art 353 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 4: piece called Crypto. And I went to see it. It's amazing. 354 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 4: It's a big wall, a big metal. 355 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: Wall, and anyone can go visit, by the way, Well. 356 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 4: No, it took me like a year and a half 357 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 4: to get permission to visit. 358 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: Are you really Yeah? I thought anyone could go. 359 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 4: Oh no, it's right in the middle of Langley. It's 360 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 4: like in the courtyard. 361 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 2: Okay, so it was not easy, Like if you have minders, 362 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 2: oh I had tons of minders. You probably had a 363 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 2: background check too, Oh they had. 364 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 4: Yes, no, they you know, everything like anything I brought 365 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 4: in had to be thoroughly vetted. And then they told 366 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 4: me I can't talk about the vetting in my book. 367 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 3: So but they to wait. 368 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: So the book just goes from like page forty seven 369 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: to page fifty three. 370 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 4: No comic, Yeah, well I did. Yeah, I had some 371 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 4: descriptions of like what they did to me to try 372 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 4: to get me through, and they're. 373 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 3: Like, you can sketch what you see, but only for 374 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 3: five ten seconds. 375 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. No, I couldn't take photographs. But it was so 376 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 4: they commissioned this sculptor and this cryptographer, and it's a 377 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 4: metal wall with hundreds of letters and symbols on it, 378 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 4: and it contains the secret code. And thirty five years later, 379 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 4: it has still not been fully cracked, not even by 380 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 4: the CIA itself or the NSA. And they'd actually thought 381 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 4: when they put it up, the CIA is like, oh, 382 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 4: our guys will crack it in two days a week. 383 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 4: And it's been thirty five years now I will say 384 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 4: part of it has been cracked. So there are four 385 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 4: sections in Cryptos, four different messages on the wall, and 386 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 4: three of the four have been cracked by CIA employees, 387 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 4: but also by all of these amateurs who look at 388 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 4: it online, look at the photos. 389 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: Given the hoops you had to jump through just to 390 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 2: look at the thing, you think they would have pre 391 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: solved it before they let them build it. 392 00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 3: I don't know why. Maybe that was sort of the points. 393 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: But I love the idea of this retired CIA cryptographer 394 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 2: cryptologists just did this thing, and then he's like, cryptos out, 395 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 2: you know, and. 396 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, Mike drop for sure. Also, uh, in the interest 397 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: of transparency very much, not the CIA vibe, but in 398 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: the interest of transparency. 399 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 3: I think I was. 400 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: I was under the impression that this was slightly easier 401 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: to visit because all of the photographs I've seen of 402 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: Cryptos the sculpture are it's in a plaza, right, like 403 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: it's outside and and like you said, I think it's. 404 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 3: Uh the inter sanctum. 405 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, the fourth passage or the fourth side is unsolved. 406 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: But dude, even reading I remember this, I can't quote 407 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: him off the dome, but I remember reading the like 408 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: solutions to the first three and there they themselves seem like. 409 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 4: Riddles to me, like exactly help. 410 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: It seems like you found another clue or something. 411 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 4: Well, that is most people think. And the stim Sandber 412 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 4: and the sculptor has said that the all the four 413 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 4: when you add them together, it's a clue to another puzzle. 414 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 4: It sounds like it's a barriage treasure or a hidden treasure, 415 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 4: possibly on the CIA, because one of the solutions does 416 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 4: include longitude and latitude. Another one is a quote from 417 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 4: the guy who discovered King Tut's tomb about the wonders 418 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 4: that he discovered in there. So they are all leading 419 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 4: to part five, but since we still haven't style part four, 420 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 4: we don't know. 421 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 2: Well, when they inevitably saw it. I hope it's not 422 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 2: like one of those Heraldo moments where they just like 423 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 2: open the vaults and there's just like a bag of 424 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 2: chips or some trash. 425 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: I hope it's a Christmas Story moment, you know, where 426 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: the kid finally gets his decoder ring, not what he 427 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: thought of. The answer is drink more ovaltine. 428 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 3: I can't wait. It's just an for CIA. 429 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: It's an ad for CIA weld t shirts. Can you imagine? Like, Okay, 430 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: so the people working at the CIA very smart, very 431 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: brilliant people, but there's still just people, so they still 432 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: get lunch. You know, their lunch break is probably shorter 433 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: than they like. So I love this image of some 434 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: CIA folks, crypto nerds going out with you know, their 435 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: brown bag lunch and standing in front of that sculpture 436 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: and eating your sabwich and thinking, okay, king tye, and 437 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: it's like a. 438 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 3: Nice place to pick a nick. It sounds like there's 439 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 3: there's a lawn something. 440 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 2: Were you saying, aj that you had folks reaching out 441 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 2: to you and they found out that you were doing this, 442 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 2: like telling you giving you inside tips on other stuff 443 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 2: to look for. 444 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 3: That was on the piece itself. 445 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,919 Speaker 4: So I'm on this message board for cryptos because there 446 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 4: are thousands of people still trying to solve it thirty 447 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 4: five years later. And first of all, I give them 448 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 4: credit for the grit. Like when I'm helping my kids 449 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 4: with their math homework, I'm I'm like, after a minute 450 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 4: and a half, I'm like, I get like, this is 451 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,360 Speaker 4: thirty five years so and every day I get messages, Oh, 452 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 4: I think it's gonna the key is Moby Dick or 453 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 4: the key is it's something to do with Navajo wind talkers, 454 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 4: And every every day there's a new theory. And I 455 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 4: was on the board and I said, I just got 456 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 4: permission to go visit Cryptos in person. And since only 457 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 4: a couple of them had actually done that, they were 458 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 4: all at Twitter, and they gave me all of these 459 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 4: these projects that I had to do, these secret projects. 460 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 4: Study the patterns in the grass and bring a compass 461 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 4: to see if the magnetic if there's any weird magnetic energy, 462 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 4: and look underneath to see how the screws are are positioned. 463 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 4: So it was hilarious and I did it. I you know, 464 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 4: I made a full report on it. Has not led 465 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 4: to the solution yet or or. 466 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 1: Is it a thing where you can't tell us? 467 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 4: Oh exactly, I did solve it, and I'm trying to 468 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 4: get sneak back in and. 469 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 3: They will come for you in the night. 470 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: Oh no, let's hope the next book is it the 471 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: Year of Livy with the CIA. 472 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 4: So living in get Mo, well, I will. I will say. 473 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 4: One of my favorite parts I got to interview the 474 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 4: sculptor Jim Sanborn, and he is he's a character and eccentric, 475 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 4: and one of my favorite parts is he's he's been 476 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 4: this has been going on for three decades, so he 477 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 4: still gets emails every day from people saying is this 478 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 4: it is that knows the sculptor and the cryptographer know it. 479 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 4: Two people in the world know it. 480 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 3: That's it. That's it. 481 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 4: They have the allegedly they have the solution somewhere in 482 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 4: a safe on the CIA, but only two people in 483 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 4: the world know it. 484 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: Well, really quickly, what kind of echelon of sculptor do 485 00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: you have to get to to be invited to create 486 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 2: an unsolvable you know, the modern art, you know, piece 487 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 2: on the grounds of the CIA. 488 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to sound I don't want to sound 489 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: like I'm telling tales out of school. But if I 490 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: recall correctly, Sanborn has has like grew up with family 491 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: members in the political class, right, or like he's like 492 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: a DC guy. 493 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 2: I guess I just think about that all the time 494 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 2: when you see these giant government sanctioned works of art, Like, 495 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 2: who is this artist that is like a totally cool 496 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: with the government, you know, because our artists tend to 497 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 2: be a little prickly sometimes about things like that, and 498 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 2: they're just down for it. And also the government is 499 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 2: like this artist is both interesting and safe. 500 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 4: Well, I will say he, I mean, he was supposed 501 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 4: to have told the head of the CIA at the 502 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 4: time what the solution was, because I guess the CIA 503 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 4: didn't want it to be like some Naudie Limerick or something. 504 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: Well, you don't want the. 505 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 3: Guy at the top to be like I should. 506 00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: I don't know either. 507 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 4: It's a but the thing is, but Sanborn hints that 508 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 4: he really didn't tell the guy the actual full answer, 509 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 4: so so really it is still those two who know it. 510 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 4: But here's one thing that I love about Sanborn as 511 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 4: a writer, because he gets all of these emails of 512 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 4: saying is it this? 513 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: Is it that? 514 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 4: And he got six so he decided he will tell 515 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 4: you whether his solution is correct, but only if you 516 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 4: pay him fifty dollars. People wow, right in, they said, exactly. 517 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 4: I mean he's the highest paid writer per word, I 518 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 4: think in America because he just has to say nope, 519 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 4: not it, and that's fifty bucks. 520 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: How do you know if he's even telling Okay, I 521 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 2: don't mean to besmirch Sanborn's honor, but. 522 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 3: People just be like, you know, no, man, I got 523 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 3: to keep the grift going, exactly. 524 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 4: There are people. There are people that reminds me of 525 00:29:58,320 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 4: the the worst. 526 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: So I don't really understand casinos like the gambling Itch 527 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: but I was trying to think of casino games, and 528 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: it feels to me like I figured out the dumbest 529 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: casino game that I think people would still play. It's 530 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: called pick a Number, and so you you pay you know, 531 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: five to fifty bucks or whatever numbers game, and then 532 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: you just guess a number and the dealer says yes 533 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: or no. That's like, I feel like we could sell that. 534 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: But also it feels like Jim got in front of us. 535 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 4: On that one exactly is yeah exactly. 536 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 2: It's like how many things am I holding up by 537 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 2: my back? You know, like, yeah, it's exactly. I mean 538 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 2: early early gambling probably very much included things like sure, but. 539 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: You're you're welcome MGM, Grand et cetera, and the Mafia 540 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: to our new game pick a number. We'll tell you 541 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: if it's right, as long as you send us fifty bucks. 542 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: There is one thing that I think is really interesting 543 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: to share with our fellow ridiculous historians here, guys, which 544 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: is one mention you made Aj Navajo wind talk. 545 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 2: Right. 546 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: It's a great example. 547 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 2: It's something we've talked about on stuff that I want 548 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 2: you to know for sure, And honestly, the details are 549 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 2: a little fuzzy, but I know it involved Native Americans 550 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 2: using Native American characters and words in ways to embed 551 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 2: super difficult to crack codes, isn't that right? 552 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 4: Right? Yeah, I a little fuzzy on this end as well, 553 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 4: But from what I remember, first of all, they made 554 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 4: a movie about it, all right, But the idea was 555 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 4: that this was a language unrelated to any other on Earth. 556 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 4: So that was like a unicorn, you want that language 557 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 4: because that way, it's very hard to crack a code. 558 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 4: When and then they took not only that language, but 559 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 4: then they encoded the language at least one other time 560 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 4: and made it even trickier. So yeah, again another unsung here. 561 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 4: I love these unsung heroes of World War Two. 562 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: I think one of my favorite facts I learned from 563 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:18,479 Speaker 1: from reading about the wind Talker program was like, you're 564 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: saying that the double twist of encoding a very obscure 565 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: language for the access power certainly, or for like, you know, whatever, 566 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: the global superpower rivals. 567 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 2: Right. 568 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: One of the things that was really interesting to me is, 569 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: I will posit there's a third coding iteration because the 570 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: Navajo language didn't have specific words for a lot of 571 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: military things, so like. 572 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 3: That makes sense. 573 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: You're you're, you're, Like the Navajo language does not, I imagine, 574 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: incorporate something for a word like P fifty two bobber 575 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: or submarine. 576 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 2: Right right, Well, if you anybody listening feels like poking 577 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 2: around and on the CIA's website, like aj was, so 578 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 2: they can see that you're around as well. List there's 579 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 2: some good writing on that website about the Navajo. Code 580 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 2: talkers is another term for them, and also on Intelligence 581 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 2: dot gov, which is the website of the Office of 582 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 2: the Director of National Intelligence. And I'm reading a little 583 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 2: blurb here where it says I'm just going to quote 584 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: from it. This system enabled the code talkers to translate 585 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 2: three lines of English in twenty seconds, not thirty minutes 586 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 2: as was common with existing code breaking machines. The code 587 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 2: talkers participated in every major marine operation in the Pacific theater, 588 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 2: giving them marines a critical advantage throughout the war. They 589 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 2: apparently were hugely credited for the victory at Ewajima and 590 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 2: transmitted more than eight hundred messages without error, which is 591 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 2: a big deal. 592 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: That's amazing. Also, I do want to point out speak 593 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: at this while we're doing references to unsung heroes. If 594 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: you go to American Indian dot SI dot edu. You 595 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: will find an example of the linguistic parker that they 596 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: had to do. Submarine, you guys, is not a word 597 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: in Navajo, so it is translated to iron fish. 598 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 3: That yeah, yeah, that is. 599 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 4: And speaking of unhung heroes, I'm looking on the CIA 600 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 4: website again and the kids section, and they have a 601 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 4: lot on animals who helped about that. 602 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,919 Speaker 3: There was like a cat, there was definitely a cat. 603 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 3: There was a catnge devices. That was a whole yep. 604 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 2: And gosh, now I'm thinking of dolphins with laser beams 605 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 2: mounted their heads. But that's from from us to powers. 606 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 3: Gosh, that was a really fun episode, but it was 607 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 3: a ways back. 608 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 2: So maybe you know, we're actually about to start doing 609 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 2: a thing where we re released some classics. 610 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 3: So maybe we can do it where we actually pair 611 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 3: them in some ways with things that come up. 612 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 2: If that's ever, you know, appropriate, then I think this 613 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 2: might be a good one to make one of our 614 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 2: first classes. 615 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: It's a beautiful idea. And here we are, we're ending 616 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: with a puzzle. I want to be careful how we 617 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,760 Speaker 1: say this that is solvable but has not yet been solved. 618 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,399 Speaker 1: We're talking to one of the very few people who 619 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: actually went and got to hang out with the CIA. 620 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: So cool, such a yeah, why is that not at 621 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: the top of your bio? Right? 622 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 2: Uh? 623 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: So h with this, we have to we have to 624 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: ask one thing that I think a lot of our 625 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: our listeners will be very interested in learning. We have 626 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: now done four episodes together on ridiculous history regarding your 627 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: your love of puzzles, your love of analyzing these things, 628 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: and and you have a lot of social commentary as 629 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: well in both your book The Puzzler and the podcast 630 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: The Puzzler. Uh what do you what do you hope 631 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 1: people take away from these conversations about ciphers, puzzles and 632 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: these thought experiments. 633 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 4: One thing that I always talk about is the puzzle mindset, 634 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 4: which is all about curiosity, and I think that is 635 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 4: a great way to go through life. Quincy Jones, great producer, 636 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 4: great musician. He has an awesome saying. He says his 637 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 4: Flay philosophy is I don't have problems, I have puzzles exactly. 638 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 4: I love that because if you look at problems are 639 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 4: just so negative and intimidating and stress inducing, whereas puzzles, 640 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 4: it's like, all right, let's roll up our sleeves and 641 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 4: try to solve this. So I try to look at 642 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 4: my problems in my family and my marriage and my business. 643 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 4: These are puzzles, and I'm going to try to solve them. 644 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,399 Speaker 2: So it's funny you say that I'm in the process 645 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 2: of doing final mixes on a record. I do that, 646 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 2: you know, when I'm not podcasting for a kind of 647 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 2: a psychedelic rock band. And you know, when you have 648 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 2: such a big thing with so many pieces, like every 649 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 2: drum has its own microphone, every little element, you are 650 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 2: carving away frequencies to make the most impactful final products, 651 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 2: and you have to figure out how to slot these 652 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 2: things together. And sometimes it's not something you can do 653 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 2: in one go. You have to think about it in 654 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 2: stages and in pieces. And that's where like a good 655 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 2: producer gets their workflow from. And what separates a really 656 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 2: good one from like a mediocre one is you kind 657 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 2: of have experience in doing that, but every time it's 658 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 2: a little different and you have to tailor you know, 659 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 2: the solutions to the quote unquote problem or I guess 660 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 2: the puzzles, you know. And I love thinking of using 661 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 2: puzzle as a stand in for problems. Let's think about 662 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 2: that just in general in our lives moving forward. And 663 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 2: that's really smart. 664 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 4: That is when I's same thing when I'm writing or 665 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 4: and I'm podcasting, I'm trying to think of it as 666 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 4: a puzzle and put the pieces together. 667 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: And if you would like to join us in this 668 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: continuing enterprise to solve everything, or at least understand why 669 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: we as humans are so driven to make that attempt, 670 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 1: then please do check out the puzzler with Aj Bahamas Jacobs. 671 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: I don't think they put Bahamas in there yet, but 672 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: we're we're holding out home. 673 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 4: We're gonna it's gonna happen, and. 674 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: We're never gonna explain why, and uh still don't know why. 675 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: So it's so we are we are mentally we are 676 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: I mentally again, Aj over the moon that you would 677 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 1: join us here. As you said, you can hear luminaries 678 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: such as Ofira Eisenberg, Roy Wood Junior, Lisa Lobe, and 679 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: Noel Brown. 680 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,320 Speaker 3: Yeah what about nine stories? Did they get included? 681 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: Yeah? 682 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 4: Not yeah, but a great idea. 683 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,720 Speaker 1: Well, AJ, talk about the like you went to school 684 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: with Lisa or something I did. 685 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 4: I went to college with Lisa Lobe and you only 686 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 4: hear what I want to AJ. She out very soon 687 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 4: after college and we were like, oh wow, she was. 688 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,240 Speaker 2: She was among that like that jewel kind of coffee 689 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 2: shop like elevated coffee shop era where like you know, 690 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 2: people were getting discovered playing in Granwich village like coffee 691 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 2: shops and stuff, and oh yeah, that was the and 692 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 2: then they had movies like you know that they were 693 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:50,720 Speaker 2: on the soundtrack. 694 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 3: I think she blew up because it was like reality bites, 695 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 3: I want to say. 696 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,760 Speaker 4: And she was friends with with Ethan Hawk, yes exactly. 697 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 2: That was the golden time for singer songwriters and for 698 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 2: our purposes. Uh. 699 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: She is absolutely great at solving puzzles, which you can. 700 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 4: See is a puzzle. She's a puzzle Uh, a ficionado. 701 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 3: Excellent glasses game too, by the way, two. 702 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 4: Can buy she has. 703 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 3: So the hustle. 704 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: Spoiler alert, folks. We're hoping that we can get AJ 705 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: back on the show in the near future to talk 706 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: about a book that is near and dear to our hearts, 707 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: the forthcoming year of living constitutionally. Uh, if if it's 708 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: not imposing too much, AJ, could you, uh could you 709 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: give us just like a blurb for our fellow ridiculous historians. 710 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:47,760 Speaker 3: What is this about. 711 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 4: I am very excited about us coming out in May. 712 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,320 Speaker 4: And it's called the Year of Living Constitutionally. And I 713 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 4: try to understand our founding document by getting inside the 714 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 4: minds of the founding fathers and living the Constitution as 715 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,320 Speaker 4: literally as possible. So I bear a musket in the 716 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 4: streets of New York. I write pamphlets with a quill 717 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 4: pen to express my first amendment. I quarter a soldier. 718 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 4: I apply to be a government sanctioned pirate. And it 719 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 4: was an amazing experience, and I learned so much about 720 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 4: the Constitution and hopefully how we can save this country 721 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 4: which is so insanely divided. And I will say one 722 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 4: of the joys was having people I respect read it. 723 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 4: And both Ben and Noel were super supportive and helpful 724 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 4: in reading the manuscript. So you are in the book. 725 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,399 Speaker 3: You are oh well acknowledgement, very very kind. 726 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 2: I got to ask you the name of these projects 727 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,439 Speaker 2: you've got biblically now constitutionally that come from the Peter 728 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 2: Weir movie The Year of Living Dangerously with. 729 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:57,959 Speaker 4: Mel Gibson said, I love that movie. 730 00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 3: I've actually have not seen it, but it made me 731 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 3: google that I like, is that a thing? 732 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 2: I think that's a thing, and it certainly is from 733 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 2: the guy that directed Master and Commander, which people also love. 734 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 3: And picnic it Hanging Rock, which I've also heard is 735 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 3: great seventies. 736 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 4: I've never seen that. 737 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 2: I haven't, but I've heard it's like a mystery thriller 738 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 2: kind of thing. But yeah, you're living dangerously and I 739 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,439 Speaker 2: needed to films Storry mel Gibson. 740 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 4: Right, And no one even really remembers that, so it's 741 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 4: a reference that doesn't resonate. 742 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 3: Does Now you're bringing it back. We're bringing it back. 743 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 1: We're bringing it back, and we're gonna bring you back 744 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: in the near future. 745 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 3: I love it. 746 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, folks, thank you so much for tuning in. Thank 747 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: you to the legendary one and only mister A. J. Jacobs. 748 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:42,320 Speaker 1: And oh and thanks to our super producer mister Max Williams, 749 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: who still does own a pair of white pants. 750 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 3: It's true, never forget the white pants. 751 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 2: A huge thanks to Alex Williams, who composed our theme 752 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 2: and is also related by. 753 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 3: Blood to mister Max Williams and his white pants by marriage. 754 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 2: Chris Rociotis and he's Jeff Coat here in spirit and 755 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:04,320 Speaker 2: Ben but ever so not leastly in fact. Firstly, but somehow, lastly, 756 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 2: thank you Ben for a yeah, this being my master 757 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 2: and commander. 758 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 3: Wait no, no too much, that's too much. 759 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 1: Au Shuxley, thanks as well to Jonathan Strickland, a k a. 760 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: The Quizter. I contacted him earlier. I was like, we 761 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,800 Speaker 1: got this guy you got to meet. He's called the 762 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: Puzzler and Jonathan. Jonathan's response was something just like, I. 763 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 2: See puert, you have my interests, sir, love it. But 764 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,320 Speaker 2: last lastly, first, foremostly, but last still somehow, thank. 765 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,800 Speaker 3: You AJ for being here and we look forward to 766 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 3: having you back real soon. 767 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 4: Oh my pleasure. It's a joy. I love it so 768 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:51,279 Speaker 4: thank you. 769 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 3: We'll see you next time. Folks. 770 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 771 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,040 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows