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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: Constitutional amendments to protect or expand abortion rights passed in

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Speaker 1: seven of the ten states where they appeared on the

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Speaker 1: ballot yesterday, including in some states that voted fort Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: Abortion rights amendments passed in Arizona, Colorado, Maryland, Missouri, Montana, Nevada,

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Speaker 1: and New York, but failed in Florida, Nebraska, and South Dakota.

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Speaker 1: It's a winning record for abortion rights ballot measures since

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court ended the constitutional right to abortion in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two fourteen to three, but Tuesday did end

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Speaker 1: the winning streak, joining me his healthcare attorney Harry Nelson,

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Speaker 1: a partner at Leech Tishman Nelson Hardiman Harry. Abortion rights

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Speaker 1: ballot measures passed in four states that voted for Trump.

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Speaker 1: How do you reconcile that, considering his having bragged about

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Speaker 1: getting Roe v. Wade reversed.

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Speaker 2: It's clear that abortion rights and you know, reproductive health

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Speaker 2: access have a majority of support in pretty much every

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Speaker 2: corner of America, except that the issue is not the

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Speaker 2: driver in this election that it was in the twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty two midterms, for example, and that clearly voters who

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Speaker 2: supported Trump were you know, willing to see his abortion

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Speaker 2: policy and politics as distinct from the broader anti abortion movement.

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Speaker 2: So it does seem like abortion was not the powerful

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Speaker 2: issue that it was in the previous election cycles since

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Speaker 2: the repeal of Roe v. Wade, even though it still

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Speaker 2: clearly garnered significant support in most of the places where

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Speaker 2: it was before.

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Speaker 1: The voters Missouri, Trump won fifty eight point five percent

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Speaker 1: of the vote, but the state voted in favor of

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Speaker 1: a constitutional amendment protecting abortion rights, and Missouri's abortion law

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Speaker 1: is very strict right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Missouri had a near total ban on abortion, and

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Speaker 2: so this is a significant decision. You know. I think

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Speaker 2: one of the things we can certainly take away is

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Speaker 2: it seems that this election, there was a huge gender

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Speaker 2: gap in this election, but that many men who sort

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Speaker 2: of you know, propelled Trump to victory in the presidential

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Speaker 2: race also supported abortion rights and voted, and this was

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Speaker 2: not a victory for anti abortion activists there. So I

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Speaker 2: don't find that result surprising. It's clear that, you know,

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Speaker 2: President Trump opened up some space between himself and the

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Speaker 2: anti abortion movement, and it's also apparent that the driving

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Speaker 2: factors that propelled his victory had less to do with

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Speaker 2: reproductive rights than other issues when you see this kind

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Speaker 2: of a slaur result.

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Speaker 1: Now, Arizona, which had the longest ballot in state history.

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Speaker 1: It took up like two pages, and apparently, you know,

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Speaker 1: momentum was gained there because the state Supreme Court ruling

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Speaker 1: in April found that the state could enforce this strict

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Speaker 1: abortion ban from eighteen sixty four.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the court decision earlier in Arizona. Obviously shocked

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Speaker 2: voters there. And so yeah, Proposition one point thirty nine,

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Speaker 2: it protects the right to abortion in the state constitution itself,

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Speaker 2: which is really significant up to the point of fetal viability,

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Speaker 2: which replaces and gives a longer period than the fifteen

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Speaker 2: week ban that had been there. So that's a significant

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Speaker 2: move on the part of Arizona. And again, you know,

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Speaker 2: not that surprising. In general, the victories that the anti

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Speaker 2: abortion movement has had have come from court for the

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Speaker 2: most part, but certainly Arizona is an example of voters,

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Speaker 2: you know, reflecting the same trend that we've seen in

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Speaker 2: the previous election cycles since ROW was repealed, and coming

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Speaker 2: out to ensure protection for access to abortion.

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Speaker 1: So Colorado's measure, besides enshrining access to abortion, also undoes

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Speaker 1: an earlier amendment that barred using state and local government

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Speaker 1: funding for abortion. So what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's e sic hint in that it really

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Speaker 2: opens up not just access itself, but funding, you know,

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Speaker 2: reimbursement for providers to keep professionals who are working this area,

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Speaker 2: facilities open, and ensuring access to the state portion of

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Speaker 2: Medicaid funds. So one of the issues that we may

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Speaker 2: see come up now that it looks like we're going

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Speaker 2: to have a Republican control over both parts of Congress

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Speaker 2: and the presidency is potentially more restrictions on federal funding.

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Speaker 2: So Colorado seems to be the first state to ensure

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Speaker 2: that there's going to be state funding and we're talking

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Speaker 2: here mostly Medicaid funding and other facilities working on special

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Speaker 2: grant programs in this area. So I think that's a

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Speaker 2: harbinger of a trend that we're likely to see in

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Speaker 2: other states, particularly as we see a likelihood of more

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Speaker 2: federal restrictions.

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Speaker 1: So in Maryland and Montana, abortion is already legal until

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Speaker 1: viability and in Nevada up to twenty four weeks. So

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Speaker 1: what difference does the ballot measure there make in those states.

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Speaker 2: In Maryland, it was a constitutional amendment, which is significant

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Speaker 2: because it establishes a much more permanent right than a

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Speaker 2: mere ballot measure. You know, obviously, when something is placed

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Speaker 2: into the constitution itself, it establishes it as a fundamental

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Speaker 2: a more fundamental right, and it forces court to sort

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Speaker 2: of put a privacy on that right. And so recognizing

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Speaker 2: a right to abortion as part of a broader right

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Speaker 2: to privacy really sets a direction and state policy that's

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Speaker 2: going to reverberate much further in the future, and not

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Speaker 2: only in court review, but with regard to future ballot measures.

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Speaker 2: It sort of just sets a higher order of magnitude

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Speaker 2: of priority on the question. And so it's obviously it's

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Speaker 2: a better place to be right. We see some states

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Speaker 2: that have moved to pass ballot initiatives because those are

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Speaker 2: the quickest way to get things done, just to present

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Speaker 2: a measure to the voters where state law allows. But

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Speaker 2: actually amending the state constitution really is a fundamental way

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Speaker 2: to give more security to the principle of a constitutional

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Speaker 2: right to reproductive freedom.

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Speaker 1: So New York's measure was a little different. It didn't

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Speaker 1: even mention the word abortion New York, it was.

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Speaker 2: A supposal that prohibited discrimination based on pregnancy outcome, So

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Speaker 2: it was not a direct abortion rights New York already

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Speaker 2: has an abortion rights law. But it's interesting New York

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Speaker 2: kind of went a step further in a different direction, right,

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Speaker 2: Colorado went further on funding on public funding, but New

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Speaker 2: York went further on identifying a possible risk of discrimination

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Speaker 2: that an employer could, for example, make an adverse decision

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Speaker 2: based on pregnancy outcome. So it's sort of to fight

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Speaker 2: and broadened the scope of protected rights beyond the right

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Speaker 2: to the abortion itself, which was already in place.

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Speaker 1: Just because they passed these amendments, that doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: the abortion bands in these states are suddenly off the books.

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Speaker 1: It requires some court action, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: Like we've seen, you know, with abortion going back for

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Speaker 2: the last fifty years, a lot of times these laws

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Speaker 2: stay on the books, and we're actually going to need

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Speaker 2: test cases to come up and have courts formally rule,

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Speaker 2: you know, on the status of some of these old laws.

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Speaker 2: So there are a couple of places where these laws

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Speaker 2: are going to change things, but we're still going to

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Speaker 2: have to see cases filed a little bit of anxiety

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Speaker 2: and stress for the you know, providers and the patients

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Speaker 2: who are in those cases. But for better or worse,

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Speaker 2: that's just the process that we're going to see go

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Speaker 2: forward here.

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Speaker 1: I mean, can we assume that judges are going to

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Speaker 1: follow the amendments and not put their own sort of

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Speaker 1: stamp on it.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: I think the guarantee of abortion rights is something that

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Speaker 2: should give security here. I do think that while we

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Speaker 2: do see some opportunism from judges who feel strongly on

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Speaker 2: the anti abortion side, they can't do very much given

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Speaker 2: the appeal structure, and obviously appellic courts put the issue

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Speaker 2: before multiple judges and hopefully ensure that the law actually

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Speaker 2: gets followed. So I don't think anyone should worry that

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Speaker 2: these laws are not going to actually be you know,

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Speaker 2: implemented and enforced. It's just we're going to have to

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Speaker 2: go through a process to actually make that happen.

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Speaker 1: And abortion amendments did not pass in Florida, Nebraska, and

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Speaker 1: South Dakota, Florida, which unusual is that most voters supported

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Speaker 1: the Florida measure fifty seven percent, but it fell short

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Speaker 1: of the sixty percent. So what's happening is a minority

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Speaker 1: of voters are able to keep the abortion ban in place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very surprising result. You know, obviously came

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Speaker 2: very close. It's good news, right that fifty seven percent

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Speaker 2: of the voters support abortion rights, but obviously this sixty

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Speaker 2: percent threshold that Florida law requires to amend the constitution

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Speaker 2: was a barrier. And so we're stuck with the current

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Speaker 2: Florida abortion ban, which is a six week abortion ban,

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Speaker 2: very early, and that's a problem. So Florida has more

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Speaker 2: work to do and we're going to see the fight continue.

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Speaker 2: The fact that it was fifty seven percent, that it

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Speaker 2: came so close makes me suspect that we're going to

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Speaker 2: see this issue return on the ballot in midterms in

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Speaker 2: election cycle that is likely to draw out a different

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Speaker 2: voting pool in midterms. That's pretty close. That's a very

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Speaker 2: narrow margin of defeat. So while it is a victory

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Speaker 2: that the anti abortion activist can claim, it's a pretty

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Speaker 2: narrow victory and I don't think it's one that will

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Speaker 2: will hold up. The problem is, for at least the

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Speaker 2: next two years, we're stuck with the six weeks ban

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Speaker 2: in Florida, and also.

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Speaker 1: The governor there, Ron DeSantis pulled out all the stops

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Speaker 1: against the amendment, having election police go to voters front

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Speaker 1: doors to question them about signing a petition to add

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Speaker 1: the abortion referendum.

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Speaker 4: He had a website.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he really went out of his way to

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Speaker 1: try to get that defeated.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little bit surprising that the Santis went

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Speaker 2: to such extreme measures. But you know, who knows what

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Speaker 2: his plan is. You know, he came away from the

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Speaker 2: presidential election kind of seated and sailed, and obviously someone

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Speaker 2: is advising him that this is a winning place for

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Speaker 2: him to be tough. I think the broad result in

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Speaker 2: the fact that it's still got fifty seven percent of

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Speaker 2: voter support, should hopefully raise questions with whoever pushed him

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Speaker 2: on that strategy and give him pause. But very surprising

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Speaker 2: that he made such a stand on this issue.

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Speaker 1: So now, in Nebraska, it was the first time in

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Speaker 1: the state's history that conflicting petitions appeared on the same ballot,

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Speaker 1: and I'm wondering if that had anything to do with

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Speaker 1: the defeat of the abortion measure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's an issue of confusing the voters

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Speaker 2: with competing ballot measures here, right, the one that was

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Speaker 2: approved was the one that enshrines the current twelve week

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Speaker 2: ban with an exception for rape for incests into the

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Speaker 2: life of the mother, but the broader measure that would

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Speaker 2: have added the right to abortion access to the state

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Speaker 2: constitution failed. I do think there was an element of,

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Speaker 2: you know, voters going for a more modest choice when

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Speaker 2: presented with two alternatives. And I also think that here too,

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Speaker 2: this election drove out a different voter base than we're

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Speaker 2: likely to see in the midterm elections. And I think

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Speaker 2: that this is not the last word in Nebraska. So

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Speaker 2: that while this is a setback certainly for the you know,

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Speaker 2: reproductive health access advocates, it was an unfortunate kind of

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Speaker 2: competition and one that has flowed things down in Nebraska.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 1: South Dakota is a state with a strict ban on abortion,

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Speaker 1: and the Abortion Rights Amendment failed, and it was a

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Speaker 1: decisive fail.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably the biggest victory for anti abortion activists

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Speaker 2: South Dakota as one of the most restrictive. What was

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Speaker 2: rejected was a constitutional amendment there that would have put

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Speaker 2: in a trimester based system, which was what Rote was

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Speaker 2: based on, essentially, with no ability to limit abortion whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: In the first trimester, you know, very much tied to

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Speaker 2: wrote in the reasonable regulation in the second trimester and

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Speaker 2: only you know, heavy regulation or prohibition in the third trimester.

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Speaker 2: And so the problem is that the defeat of that

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Speaker 2: amendment really leaves South Dakota as essentially a state with

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Speaker 2: a total ban. And I do think it's definitely the

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Speaker 2: biggest victory of this election cycle for the anti abortion movement.

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Speaker 2: I suspect that whatever you know happens next in South Dakota,

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Speaker 2: that there will be more activity to protect and restore

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Speaker 2: rights to avoid, but that it will probably be a

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Speaker 2: more modest initiative. And the result here, by the way,

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Speaker 2: was strong, right, sixty one percent. Again, so it looks

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Speaker 2: like the likelihood for South Dakota is that any future

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Speaker 2: challenge will have to be a more modest approach and

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Speaker 2: not one that tries to completely reinstate Roe v.

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Speaker 1: Wade.

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Speaker 4: What kind of.

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Speaker 1: An impact can Trump as president have on abortion rights

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Speaker 1: in the country.

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Speaker 2: Well, so we've heard a lot about whether there's going

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Speaker 2: to be some kind of national position created to coordinate

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Speaker 2: abortion restriction. Obviously, you know, we have enormous amounts of

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Speaker 2: federal healthcare dollars at stake through not only you know,

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Speaker 2: Medicare Medicaid, but through all the various federal funding programs.

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Speaker 2: So I think there is room if Trump is inclined

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Speaker 2: to be you know, supportive of anti abortion activists. Those

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Speaker 2: are certainly two major ways. The thing I'm watching most

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Speaker 2: closely is that we avoided a problem with the FDA

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Speaker 2: pill that was challenged mifipristone, the abortion pill that activists

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Speaker 2: in Texas got a federal judge to ban, and we

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Speaker 2: saw a whole drama there that the Supreme Court put

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Speaker 2: to rest. But now the biggest question to me is

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Speaker 2: whether you know, Trump's or Trump's people are going to

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Speaker 2: try to make the FDA a site of more problems

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Speaker 2: for telemedicine abortion. We already know telemedicine abortion is with

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Speaker 2: mifipristone is now something like sixty percent or more of

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Speaker 2: all abortion, you know, which has really transformed it to

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Speaker 2: a much more private matter, you know, where women don't

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Speaker 2: have to come to clinics to have a procedure. They

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Speaker 2: can choose the time and place where they take the

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Speaker 2: medication and have much more privacy in the process itself.

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Speaker 2: So to me, the sort of scariest possibility is the

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Speaker 2: politicization of the FDA. It's going to be very interesting

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Speaker 2: to see what happens with health policy under Trump. A

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Speaker 2: couple of years ago when he was elected in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 2: I co authored a book making a lot of predictions,

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Speaker 2: and I learned my last and it's always dangerous to

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Speaker 2: get ahead of what's going to happen here. But I'm

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Speaker 2: definitely watching with data breathless see how much the FDA

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Speaker 2: gets politicized or hopefully whether you know, will allow the

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Speaker 2: experts who are policing the safety of our drugs and

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Speaker 2: other medical devices supplies do their workout interruptions so that

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Speaker 2: remains you soon, Thanks.

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Speaker 4: So much, Harry.

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Speaker 1: That's Harry Nelson of Leech Tishman Hardiman Nelson Coming up next.

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Speaker 1: Will the Third Time be the Charm? For Johnson and Johnson?

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg? Will the Third Time be the Charm?

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Speaker 1: The fate of Johnson and Johnson's latest push to use

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Speaker 1: bankruptcy courts to end thousands of cancer lawsuits tied to

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Speaker 1: its iconic baby powder now hinges on a high stakes

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Speaker 1: trial in January. A federal judge in Houston will decide

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Speaker 1: early next year whether Jay and Jay's bid to quickly

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Speaker 1: settle the claims with an eight point two billion dollar

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Speaker 1: payout can move ahead. A lead attorney for some whole

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Speaker 1: out claims of vote by claimants in support of the

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Speaker 1: deal was rigged, a charge that Jay and Jay denies.

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Speaker 1: Joining me is an expert in mass torts, Elizabeth Birch,

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Speaker 1: a professor at the University of Georgia School of Law.

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Speaker 1: What are the stakes in this fifteen year long litigation?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, there are certainly stakes for Johnson and

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Speaker 3: Johnson in particular, but I think you know, they're really

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Speaker 3: even bigger stakes for how we handle these mass harms

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Speaker 3: and whether we handle them through bankruptcy or whether we

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Speaker 3: handle them through Article three courts. You know, So, even

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Speaker 3: as Johnson and Johnson is trying now for the third

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Speaker 3: time to in my opinion, sort of ram this bankruptcy

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Speaker 3: through the Article one system, we have questions about whether

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Speaker 3: bankruptcy can become kind of a court of first resort

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Speaker 3: rather than a last resort for handling massive tort claims

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Speaker 3: like this.

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Speaker 1: Will you explain how Johnson and Johnson is trying to

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Speaker 1: resolve the claim using a legal strategy known as the

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Speaker 1: Texas two step, where corporate shell was created to absorb

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Speaker 1: the cancer claims and then file for bankruptcy, and that

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Speaker 1: was rejected in New Jersey.

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Speaker 3: Sure, so it actually started off by filing in North Carolina,

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Speaker 3: which had fairly friendly case law to them. In the

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Speaker 3: Fourth Circuit, that case was transferred up to New Jersey,

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Speaker 3: which is in the Third Circuit, and then back in

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Speaker 3: I believe it was twenty twenty three. The Third Circuit

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Speaker 3: found that the filing by Johnson and Johnson unit, which

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Speaker 3: is called LTL, was in bad faith essentially because the

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Speaker 3: TALC unit wasn't sufficially distressed. Instead, you know, it had

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Speaker 3: a funding source, which was Johnson and Johnson. So it

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Speaker 3: didn't pass the test of being filed in good faith

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Speaker 3: and it was dismissed. And then not long after that

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Speaker 3: they filed a second time, and then now again a

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Speaker 3: third time. But this one is down in Texas.

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Speaker 4: I mean, what makes Texas different?

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Speaker 3: Well, Texas is a little bit different. So there have

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Speaker 3: been unfavorable rulings in this regard in both the Third

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Speaker 3: Circuit and in the Seventh Circuit. There has been a

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Speaker 3: favorable ruling in the Fourth Circuit, which is where Johnson

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Speaker 3: and Johnson originally tried to go by filing in North Carolina,

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Speaker 3: but yet to be determined what the Fifth Circuit will

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Speaker 3: do to this, although there is some reason to think

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Speaker 3: that maybe Fifth Circuit law would be a bit more

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Speaker 3: favorable to Johnson and Johnson than the Third or the

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Speaker 3: Seventh Circuit would.

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Speaker 1: It's before a bankruptcy judge in Texas. The plaintiffs or

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Speaker 1: some of the plaintiffs tried to send it back to

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Speaker 1: New Jersey, but the judge rule that it could stay

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Speaker 1: in Texas.

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Speaker 3: That's correct. So that was the most recent ruling that

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Speaker 3: I know about. Was the judge in Texas, Judge Lopez,

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Speaker 3: which is who is a bankruptcy judge, said that the

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Speaker 3: case did not need to move back to New Jersey

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Speaker 3: and that he would be able to handle the case

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Speaker 3: quickly and fairly.

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Speaker 1: So this time Jay and Day went sort of prepared.

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Speaker 1: It got a pre approved vote of the plaintiffs.

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Speaker 3: Supposedly, so you know, this is what we're hearing and

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Speaker 3: what we're reporting. So in order for a bankruptcy plan

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Speaker 3: to go through, there are two ways to do it.

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Speaker 3: There's something called a pre pack, which is where you

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Speaker 3: gather the votes beforehand and when you file the bankruptcy plan,

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Speaker 3: you sort of have all your ducks in a row

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Speaker 3: such that the plan confirmation goes through very quickly. And

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Speaker 3: then there is just sort of the ordinary Chapter eleven

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Speaker 3: reorganization where you're trying to get the requisite votes as

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Speaker 3: you go here, they're saying that they have the requisite vote.

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Speaker 3: There is a pretty big split among the plaintiff's law

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Speaker 3: firms as to whether they are in favor of this

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Speaker 3: plan or against this plan. And there have been, you know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of campaigns on both sides trying to get

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Speaker 3: TOUP claimants to vote one way or the other, depending

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Speaker 3: on which firms are spigned with.

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Speaker 1: And now one of the plaintiff's lawyers, who is a

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Speaker 1: lead attorney for the holdouts, Andy birch he accused another

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Speaker 1: plaintiff's attorney and the consulting firm hired by Jay and

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Speaker 1: Jay to run the pre bankruptcy vote of illegally switching

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Speaker 1: eleven four hundred and thirty four votes from reject to accept.

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Speaker 3: You know, I know that Andy Birchfield and Mike Papantonio

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Speaker 3: have been very vocal in opposing the town bankruptcy plans,

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Speaker 3: whether it was the first, the second, or the third,

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Speaker 3: and certainly with regard to the third So you know,

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Speaker 3: in some respects, it's a it's a very interesting way

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Speaker 3: to see what's happening with this risk and the planeff Bar.

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Speaker 3: There may have been evidentiary hearings on that motion. I

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Speaker 3: have not seen those, so I'm not sure about what

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Speaker 3: the allegations are or whether they are true. The judge

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Speaker 3: will ultimately have to decide that, you know. But even

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Speaker 3: without the plaintiffs bar themselves getting involved, you have the

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Speaker 3: US Trustee who is against the plan, and so it

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Speaker 3: will be interesting to see what happens. I suspect that

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Speaker 3: we'll see an appeal either way, you know, regardless of

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Speaker 3: how many plaintifs ultimately vote in favor of the plan.

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Speaker 1: I mean, for plaintiffs attorneys, the longer they litigate and

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Speaker 1: the more cases they litigate, the more compensation they get

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Speaker 1: in attorney's fees.

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Speaker 3: Well, it really depends, you know. Oftentimes you'll see retainer

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Speaker 3: agreements that are staggered in terms of the amount of

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Speaker 3: work that the attorney has to put in. So you know,

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Speaker 3: if you settle before you ever file a complaint, you

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Speaker 3: get a smaller percentage of a contingency fee than you

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Speaker 3: would if you had to file a complaint or ultimately

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Speaker 3: file an appeal. I haven't seen the retainer agreements in TALC,

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Speaker 3: so it's hard to say, and I suspect they vary

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Speaker 3: from firm to firm. But one of the concerns I

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Speaker 3: think that I have about resolving mass towork cases through

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Speaker 3: the bankruptcy process is that you don't always have the

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Speaker 3: differentation between different types of planes. So, in other words,

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Speaker 3: bankruptcy courts really aren't equipped to try these cases and

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Speaker 3: to say this plaintiff should get this much and that

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Speaker 3: plantiff should get that much. And oftentimes what you have

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Speaker 3: is just sort of a you know, everybody gets a haircut,

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Speaker 3: and oftentimes it's not a very good haircut, And so

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Speaker 3: claims that might be weaker from a causation perspective could

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Speaker 3: be getting the same or more than claims that are

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Speaker 3: much stronger from a causation perspective. So that's the sort

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Speaker 3: of big concern coming out of bankruptcy.

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Speaker 1: Now, if you don't have a global settlement, I mean,

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Speaker 1: how long would it take to get these cases litigated

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Speaker 1: and how long would the plaintiffs have to wait to

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Speaker 1: get any money?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean that's the flip side argument. Is that

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Speaker 3: you know, at some point a dollar today is worth

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Speaker 3: a lot more than a dollar, you know, five ten

401
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Speaker 3: years from now. And for many of the plaintiffs, I

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Speaker 3: think they need the money sooner rather than later, which

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Speaker 3: is why I suspect you see some support for the plan.

404
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Speaker 3: The other side is that, you know, not all plaintiffs

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Speaker 3: are in it for the money. A lot of them

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Speaker 3: are in it to make their voices heard, to have

407
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Speaker 3: some sort of change in the system. Of course, TALC

408
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Speaker 3: is no longer. We don't have baby powder on the

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Speaker 3: market anymore. Johnson and Johnson quietly pulled baby powder from

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Speaker 3: the shelves. They didn't actually take the baby powder off

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Speaker 3: the shelves, but they stopped restocking it in the midst

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Speaker 3: of COVID. So you know, at some point we would

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Speaker 3: have statutes of limitation that kick in. The difficulty here

414
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Speaker 3: is that a lot of these injuries take a long

415
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Speaker 3: time to manifest. So any of the cases that are

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Speaker 3: alleging that they have some sort of as bestice exposure

417
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Speaker 3: and as best as related diseases would take you know,

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Speaker 3: between five to twenty to sometimes forty years to actually manifest.

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Speaker 3: So yes, to answer your question, we would certainly have

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Speaker 3: to wait a lot longer to get any sort of

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Speaker 3: compensations to the plaineiffs if the bankruptcy plan doesn't go through.

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Speaker 3: But there's a question about who gets what and why

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Speaker 3: and whether that's going to be fair.

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Speaker 1: What is Jay and Jay offering in this settlement. Does

425
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Speaker 1: it just twelve billion across the board to claimants or

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Speaker 1: you know, I haven't.

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Speaker 3: Seen the numbers or what the breakdown of the numbers

428
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 3: would be. You know, certainly a portion of that will

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Speaker 3: go to the attorneys, the ones who have handled this case.

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Speaker 3: And I don't know how much of that is ear

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Speaker 3: march for the lawyers. I'm not sure how their contracts

432
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Speaker 3: would be affected by the bankruptcy process. And you also

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Speaker 3: have a question about how much of that money is

434
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Speaker 3: going to get eaten up in administrative costs. So oftentimes

435
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Speaker 3: what we see is kind of the sticker price of

436
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Speaker 3: the settlement fund ends up being a good bit smaller

437
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Speaker 3: once you figure out who gets what and why and tell.

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Speaker 1: Us about the hearing before Judge Lopez in January.

439
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Speaker 3: So that is the hearing about whether to accept the

440
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Speaker 3: Chapter eleven prepackaged plan. That'll be the next sort of

441
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 3: you know, big moment to determine whether the plan is

442
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 3: going to proceed forward or whether they could ultimately get

443
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 3: derailed early on.

444
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: Do you think if this plan goes through with the

445
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 1: you know, bankruptcy part of it, do you think that

446
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: that could encourage other companies to try the same thing.

447
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 3: Well, you know, we've really seen an EBB and a flow.

448
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 3: You know, the short answer is yes. You know, if

449
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 3: it works for Johnson and Johnson, then you know, I

450
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 3: worry that bankruptcy is going to become the new go

451
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 3: to plan for resolving these major mass tort cases. You know,

452
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 3: but we have seen a lot of hesitation by the

453
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 3: Third Circuit and these early tout cases, as well as

454
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 3: the Seventh Circuit and the Free and Military airploig cases.

455
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 3: And then of course, you know, we had the Supreme

456
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 3: Court in Harrington versus Purdue Pharma say that you couldn't

457
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 3: allow for these third parties like the Sacklers to get

458
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 3: the protections of bankruptcy without filing bankruptcy themselves. And my

459
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 3: understand of the plan here is that you have a

460
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 3: little bit of that happening in the Red River Tout case.

461
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 3: So it's yet to be seen exactly what's going to

462
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 3: come out of the January hearing.

463
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: Can you compare the taut litigation to other mass tort

464
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: litigations in the past, Yes and no.

465
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 3: So certainly mass tort litigation starts in the bankruptcy proceeding

466
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 3: with the Augustot cases. In fact, section five twenty four G,

467
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 3: which is the as bestest code for bankruptcy, came out

468
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 3: of the asbestos litigation, and it actually started early on

469
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: with the Johns Manville as vestice proceedings, and then Congress

470
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 3: enacted five twenty four G to try to help streamline

471
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 3: the process. But what we're seeing with the talent cases

472
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 3: is really a new use of bankruptcy for a parent

473
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 3: company that doesn't really qualify as bankrupt, but using the

474
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 3: bankruptcy process through kind of a piecemeal approach with corporate

475
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 3: laws and in a way that seems maybe not particularly fair.

476
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 3: And I think that's the concern that we have that

477
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 3: we don't have really an insolvent parent company. We're using

478
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 3: the bankruptcy process to try to shed mass toward liability,

479
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 3: but nothing else, you know, at least without these sort

480
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 3: of clear guardrails to prevent any sort of bankruptcy abuses

481
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 3: and preserve you know, traditional trial process within the article

482
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: three courts. I worry about these cases. You know, we're

483
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 3: going to have less information production coming out of the

484
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 3: litigation process, less law development, less judicial review, and potentially

485
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 3: less due process and opportunities for the plaintiffs themselves to

486
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 3: have their voices heard.

487
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for those insights, Elizabeth. That's Professor Elizabeth

488
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: Birch of the University of Georgia Law School. Turning now

489
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: to the federal courts, half of the twelve circuit courts

490
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 1: have a majority of judges appointed by Republican presidents, up

491
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 1: from a third eight years ago, and some of the

492
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: most historically liberal benches, including the San Francisco based US

493
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, are trending rightward

494
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 1: with only a narrow liberal majority. So what will happen

495
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: when Donald Trump has another four years to appoint judges?

496
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: Joining me is an expert in the federal judiciary, Carl Tobias,

497
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: a professor a professor at the University of Richmond Law School.

498
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: Let's start at the top with the Supreme Court. Do

499
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: you see any changes on the court with Trump in power?

500
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 5: Well, it's possible, but I think unlikely. The two possible

501
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 5: people who might resign or step down or retire are

502
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 5: Alito and Thomas, and they're really acendant right now, so

503
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 5: why would they want to step down. They also seem

504
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 5: very independent, and I don't think anybody is going to

505
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,959
Speaker 5: persuade them to do that. If they don't want to

506
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 5: do it, it's their decision. And so it's not clear

507
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 5: to me at all that there'll be any changes there.

508
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 1: And I think that Thomas once said that he was

509
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: going to die on the Supreme Court in order to

510
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 1: get back at the Liberals.

511
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 5: Well, as I said, they're ascendent right now, and they're

512
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 5: not that old. I mean, they're in their mid seventies, right,

513
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 5: and so we're accustomed to having justices who serve for life.

514
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 5: I don't know that there will be any resignations in

515
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 5: the next four years. It seems unlikely to me.

516
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 4: Now, let's talk about the circuit courts.

517
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: Half of the twelve circuit courts have a majority of

518
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: judges appointed by Republican presidents, up from a third eight

519
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: years ago. Trump tipped the ideological balance of the Third Circuit,

520
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: which is based in Philadelphia, the Eleventh Circuit, which is

521
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: based in Atlanta, and the Second Circuit.

522
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 4: Based in New York.

523
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: But President Biden wasn't able to replicate his success with

524
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: appellate courts in.

525
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 5: Terms of numbers, that's true. And in terms of tipping

526
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 5: as you're suggesting or flipping, I think he did flip

527
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 5: back the second circuit right, but not the third as

528
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 5: you say. Though if Mongy is confirmed it it becomes

529
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 5: very close, maybe tied, and so we'll see. He I

530
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 5: think will still confirm something like forty nine, perhaps maybe fifty,

531
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 5: and Trump confirmed fifty four. So I think that's a

532
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 5: pretty substantial success given how many seats vacancies were saved

533
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 5: in twenty fifteen sixteen for Trump by McConnell and the

534
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 5: Republicans when they had the majority and basically just shut

535
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 5: down the process for the Obama nominees in those last

536
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 5: two years. So it shouldn't be surprising. But now the

537
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,239
Speaker 5: Democrats have returned the favor because it may be that

538
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 5: there's only a few and maybe only one or two

539
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 5: appellate vacancies available for Trump at least at the beginning

540
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 5: of his tenure in January. But there are of course

541
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 5: eligible appellate judges who satisfy the rule of eighty. They're

542
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 5: sixty five and have fifteen years of experience, and they

543
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 5: could assume senior status. And I think there are a

544
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 5: couple of dozen of those who are Republican appointees and

545
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 5: five or so who are Democratic appointees. So some of

546
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 5: them may decide to assume senior status, but it's not

547
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 5: entirely clear.

548
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: And so the death or retirement of a Democrat an

549
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: appointee on the Second Circuit or two on the Ninth

550
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: would flip those courts to a majority of Republican appointees.

551
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,959
Speaker 5: Guests could do that. Of course, those are big courts

552
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 5: that have large numbers of members and many senior judges.

553
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 5: But you're right, and that would be important for the

554
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 5: en banc Court, of course, as well as for three

555
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 5: judge panels.

556
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: So the Ninth Circuit got a reputation in the eighties

557
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: and early nineties, you know, as being this liberal court,

558
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: and even you know, till recently, it was how many

559
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: times was the Ninth Circuit going to be reversed by

560
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. It was always the top circuit to

561
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: be reversed until recently. But even that court, though it's

562
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: majority Democrat appointees, is not as liberal.

563
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 4: As it used to be.

564
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 5: That's right. Trump, I think appointed ten people to that court,

565
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 5: and it's a twenty nine judge court, and so that

566
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 5: is making a difference, I think, and moving a court

567
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 5: back to the middle, if you will, there may be

568
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 5: opportunities because I think some of the Republican appointees on

569
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 5: that court now, especially Bush appointees, are eligible for senior

570
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 5: status and may take it.

571
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: So Trump would more likely with the Circuit Court succeed

572
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: in making in making the Republican appointees younger, rather than

573
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: flipping to more Republican than Democratic appointees.

574
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,239
Speaker 5: Well, I think it depends on what he wants to

575
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 5: do and who is advising him, and the vacancies that

576
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 5: he has. And I don't think the tradition, such as

577
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 5: it is of resigning or taking senior status with the

578
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 5: president of the same party has appointed you, necessarily holds

579
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 5: beyond the Supreme Court. So I think we have seen

580
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 5: in modern times that in the last decade that often

581
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 5: judges tried to honor that if they can, and that

582
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 5: reflects some greater partisanship on the appeals courts then maybe

583
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 5: was the case before, because of course the appeals courts

584
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 5: are the decision makers. In ninety nine percent of cases.

585
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 4: Let's talk about district courts.

586
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: What do you see as the outlook there for Trump?

587
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 5: Well more in terms of numbers, of course, but of

588
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 5: course they're six hundred and seventy seven judge ships at

589
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 5: the district level and only one hundred and seventy nine

590
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 5: at the appellate level, so there are more possibilities there, though.

591
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 5: I think Biden and the White House have committed to

592
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 5: confirming as many people for the districts as possible, and

593
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 5: I think that the number will be something like thirty

594
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 5: or maybe even twenty if Biden confirms all the people

595
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 5: who are on the floor now or close to being

596
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 5: on the floor and trying to eclipse Trump. I mean,

597
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 5: they're committed to topping the two hundred and thirty one circuit

598
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 5: and district appointees of Trump, and they're closing in on that,

599
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 5: and I think that's what they'll do in the five

600
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 5: weeks of the lame Duck that starts on November twelveth.

601
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 1: We've talked before about how the Trump appointees were often

602
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: ideological picks rather than being picked because of their legal acumen.

603
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: So what do you think in this second term? Will

604
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: it be even more so.

605
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 5: Well, it's possible, and there have been a number of

606
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 5: articles in the legal press suggesting that the Federal Society

607
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 5: picks from Leonard Leo are not sufficiently conservative and so

608
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 5: calls for the people to be basically loyalists for Trump,

609
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 5: which is I think his view, and so that's what

610
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 5: some people are concerned about, and there's been a number

611
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 5: of articles to that effect. Depends partly on the majority

612
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 5: and the size of the majority in the Senate and

613
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 5: whether Democrats can have any Republicans who will vote against

614
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 5: Trump's people who he nominates, and how many steets he

615
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 5: actually has. So some of that is just, you know,

616
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 5: contingent on a lot of different factors, and so it

617
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 5: may not come to pass that there'll be that many

618
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 5: people who move through. Also, the situation this year was

619
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 5: particularly difficult for Democrats to hold the razor thin majority

620
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,479
Speaker 5: they had, so something like twenty three seats were up

621
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 5: they were defending. Well that's exactly the number that or

622
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 5: something very close to that, which Republicans will be defending

623
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty six. So the majority may be short

624
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 5: lived in the Senate, and so we'll just have to

625
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 5: see what happens there. So that's a lot of contingencies,

626
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 5: and especially whether the GOP appointees on the bills courts

627
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 5: will choose to step down. Some may for age or

628
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 5: health reasons, but we don't know how many that'll be.

629
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 5: I think they are about three dozen who are eligible.

630
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 5: Many contingencies operating now, and we just have to see

631
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 5: how that works. The new Chair of Judiciary will be

632
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 5: Chuck Grassley from Iowa, who of course have chaired in

633
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 5: the four years of the Trump administration. So he will

634
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 5: take the reins of that committee over from me.

635
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 4: He's ninety one years old.

636
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 5: Yes, but still going strong apparently, and I think in

637
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 5: his eighth term. And he does have the history. Of course,

638
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 5: he's the one who created the circuit exception that Trump

639
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 5: was able to use, but he also has been there

640
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 5: and seeing how that can be detrimental, and so Durbin

641
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 5: has retained it. He said, we're not having one rule

642
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 5: for Democrats in a different rule for Republicans. Actually, this

643
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 5: year there was a big debate in committee when the

644
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 5: North Carolina Senators were upset that the White House had

645
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 5: put somebody up as a nominee they didn't want in

646
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 5: North Carolina. Tom Tellis called for regular order, a return

647
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 5: to regular order, and Durmann said, yes, absolutely, Well let's

648
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 5: do that after the election. So we'll see if that

649
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 5: comes to pass.

650
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: And what do you think will happen in the lame

651
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: duck session.

652
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 5: Biden and the White House are committed to confirming everybody

653
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 5: who is in process, and that would be five appellate

654
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 5: nominees and around twenty more district nominees and that would

655
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 5: allow them to eclipse Trump's two thirty one in his term.

656
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 5: And that's the goal and they're committed to it, and

657
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 5: they have five weeks to do it.

658
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: Well, see if it can be done. Thanks so much, Carl.

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Speaker 1: That's Professor Carl Tobias of the University of Richmond lost

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Speaker 1: its cool. And that's it for this edition of the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law Podcast. Remember you can always get the latest

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Speaker 1: legal news by subscribing and listening to the show on

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast,

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Speaker 1: Slash Law.

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Speaker 4: I'm June Grosso and this is Bloomberg