1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: Previously on. After the uprising, Seals was found shot inside 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: a burning car in Riverview on Diamond Drive. 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 2: I do know that there is a lot of sentiment 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: in the community that they want justice, they want the truth. 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,159 Speaker 3: You know, you still got a life that has a 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 3: tab on it from your past endeavors. 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying. 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 5: I ain't never say brus way. It's like he wanted 9 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 5: on the spot. He was still going an argument. Where 10 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 5: the argument took place. 11 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 6: That weren't really low you know what I'm saying, where 12 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 6: he was killed during the argument. 13 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 2: Can you give me any sense of what the argument 14 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 2: would have been over. 15 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 5: The guy who lived at that location. 16 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 3: He told the two guys, y'all can't leave that body 17 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 3: in front. 18 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 7: Of my house. 19 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 6: I'm not gonna let nothing of nobody change my mind 20 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 6: because I don't really know who did it. 21 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 5: Y'all did this to myself. 22 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 6: They've been following him for a month. 23 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 4: What you're looking for is the aftermath of the grand 24 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 4: jury deciding not to indict. 25 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 2: Off Nigel Darren. 26 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 4: Seals was murdered before his killer set his car on fire. 27 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: Once they put out the flames, they discovered Seal's body 28 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: inside with a gunshop. 29 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 8: He pointed gun on me. 30 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 3: Am, I am I footing you all the brothers Fargus 31 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 3: the BD grab you by my heart, slam me. 32 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 5: Out the car. 33 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: He says, you might want you might want to pick 34 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 2: your enemy Ben. This is after the Uprising season two, 35 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: the murder of Darren Seals. 36 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 9: I got a hold of our detective and essentially the 37 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 9: suspect we applied. 38 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 10: For warrants on is deceased. 39 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: This is Sergeant Tracy Panis of the Saint Louis County 40 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: Police again, and she's telling me something rather amazing. Apparently, 41 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 2: at some point they thought they knew who killed Darren, 42 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 2: and they applied to get an arrest warrant for the suspect. 43 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 2: But that person is now deceased. As getting an arrest 44 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: warrant in a homicide case shouldn't take very long, we 45 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 2: wanted to know when the suspect died. 46 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 9: No, I don't have a death on a death day 47 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 9: on him orythaying no. 48 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 5: I don't. 49 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: According to Sergeant Panis, the Saint Louis County Police had 50 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: made their recommendation for prosecution to the County Attorney's office. 51 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: We asked why that never moved forward. 52 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 9: I would imagine it's related to them being deceased. Yeah, yeah, 53 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 9: if the suspect is deceased, they're not going to do 54 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 9: anything with it. 55 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 10: I mean I would assume not. 56 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. 57 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 10: That might be a better question for them. On our end. 58 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 9: It just shows taken under advisement, which is pretty normal 59 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 9: for a case when they're waiting for more evidence or 60 00:02:58,840 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 9: they're waiting. 61 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 10: For some more on the case. 62 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 9: You can check with them, but that's yeah, that's what 63 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 9: we have. And my detective is not available to speak 64 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 9: to the case, especially since we're still actively actively pursuing 65 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 9: possible other suspects. 66 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: So Sergeant Panis said she couldn't give us the name 67 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 2: of the suspect, but that we might be able to 68 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: obtain it if we made a Sunshine request to the 69 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 2: prosecutor's office. So we did, and in the meantime, we 70 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 2: began to dive into the FBI file on Darren that 71 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 2: had been obtained through James Cooper's Freedom of Information Act request. 72 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: As we mentioned in the last episode, the vast majority 73 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: of the pages in the file are totally blacked out 74 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: by redactions, so we sought help in deciphering what was 75 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 2: available to be read. 76 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 5: So there's an FBI specially in US W. Marshall and 77 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 5: what are's probably a police sergeant who perform a vehicle 78 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 5: stop on Darren Seals as he was driving his known 79 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 5: twenty twelve Chief Wrangler redaction. So the vehicle was located 80 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 5: in parking lot the area redacted. Uniformed officers redacted. 81 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: This is Mike Jerman. He's a fellow with the Brennan 82 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: Center for Justices, Liberty and National Security program, and before 83 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: that he served as the Policy Council for National Security 84 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: and Privacy at the ACLU's Legislative Office. Rather interestingly, before 85 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: working for the American Civil Liberties Union, Mike was an 86 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 2: FBI special agent, which informs the bookie author titled Disrupt, Discredit, 87 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: and Divide How the New FBI Damages Democracy. We sent 88 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: him a copy of the FBI file on Darren, and 89 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: here we're breaking down a section of the report that 90 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 2: explains how the FBI arranged to have Darren pulled over 91 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: with the help of local police and other authorities. Note 92 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 2: this is not the traffic stop from Ferguson that was 93 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 2: filmed by a bystander that we played audio from earlier 94 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: this season. 95 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 5: The uniformed officers who made Stoff advised that Seals had 96 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 5: active warrants for arrest. These parent appear to be traffic warrants, 97 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 5: including driving with the license revokes, so they're basically putting 98 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 5: the reasonable suspicion for why they can justify car stop. 99 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 5: What's clear from the rest that it is that they 100 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 5: were using the car stop to try to search for 101 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 5: a weapon, and when they don't find a weapon, they 102 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 5: release him, which only reinforces that the purpose of the 103 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 5: stop was not to enforce the warrants or analyze him 104 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 5: for driving without a license. 105 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 2: Everything Mike just read about Darren being pulled over comes 106 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 2: from a page in the report that was filed on 107 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 2: June eighth, twenty sixteen, three months before Darren's death. Darren's 108 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 2: FBI report is so heavily redacted that barely anything can 109 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: be gleaned from it, and this description of the traffic 110 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 2: stop is one of the few readable portions of the file. 111 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: We asked Mike if he could make sense of the 112 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 2: remaining bits of text, much of which is insider jargon, abbreviations, 113 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 2: and reference codes. 114 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 4: So there are a. 115 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 5: Couple of things. One is on the opening memo, the 116 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 5: agent opening the case opens it based upon the allegations 117 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 5: that Darren seals for the self described revolutionary espouse, somewhat 118 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 5: militant rhetoric, and has access to weapons. Under the FBI's 119 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 5: rules that are allegedly to protect First Amendment rights, an 120 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 5: FBI agent is not held out to open an investigation 121 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 5: based solely on First Amendment activities. But this description reflects 122 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 5: how easy that is to overcome one. 123 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 4: And it strikes me that it's referenced over and over 124 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 4: again that willusion series this is not based on First 125 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 4: Amendment right. I see that many times in this document. 126 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 4: It's one of the only unredacted. 127 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 5: Statements, and that's because that's the only protection. So that's 128 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 5: the only hurdle that has to be overcome. And some 129 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 5: of the documents are referencing what's called a CDC review. 130 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 5: CDC is the Chief Division Council. That's an FBI agent 131 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 5: lawyer who is in the office. This other FBI official 132 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 5: who has a law degree is supposed to okay the 133 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 5: investigation and the activity and review it every six months. 134 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 5: There are indications that this is openness a domestic terrorism 135 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 5: investigation because of the CDC reviews and because of this document, 136 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 5: which is on page twenty three, the people at this 137 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 5: traffic stop are an FBI special agent, a US Deputy Marshall, 138 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 5: and a police sergeant in addition to the uniform officers 139 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 5: who are apparently making the stop. And that tells me 140 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 5: that it's a task force, and I would imagine most 141 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 5: likely that it's a joint terrorism task force, but it 142 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 5: could also be a violent crimes task force or a 143 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,679 Speaker 5: drug task force a given Field's previous convictions for drugs, 144 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 5: but clearly a federal investigation that is utilizing their information 145 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 5: that they have from performance for their own suppositions based 146 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 5: on his criminal history. 147 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: One of the more frustrating things about how insanely redacted 148 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: the FBI report is is that we don't even know 149 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 2: what kind of investigation it's describing. It would be easy 150 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: enough to just assume that the FBI was looking into 151 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: Darren as a potential domestic terrorists because of his highly 152 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 2: visible status with the Ferguson movement, but we don't know 153 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: that for sure. The FBI could have been investigating Darren 154 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: for other reasons, such as potential gang or drug activity. 155 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 5: There's a reference to his one drug conviction, but it's 156 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 5: interesting how they characterize that because they also reference a 157 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 5: number of arrests that did not result in convictions, which 158 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 5: is somewhat unusual that you would highlight arrests for assault, 159 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 5: arrest for arm criminal action, and I'm also useablep and 160 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 5: when there was no conviction associated with that. What it 161 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 5: appears to me just from these records is what they 162 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 5: were trying to accomplish was what they call a disruption. 163 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 5: Immediately after nine to eleven, Attorney General John Ashcroft resurrected 164 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 5: this concept of disruption, this idea that if the FBI 165 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 5: believes you did something bad and can't prove it, they're 166 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 5: still going to take actions to disrupt your ac and 167 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 5: this is sometimes referred to as the al Capone concept. 168 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 5: You know that al Capone was this murderous gang leader 169 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 5: in Chicago, but they ended up convicting him of incompax evasion. 170 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 4: What are the tools in the toolbox of disruption in 171 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 4: the modern FBI selective prosecution? 172 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 5: You know, finding some minor thing that the FBI typically 173 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 5: wouldn't investigate or charge credit card fraud or food stamp 174 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 5: frauds that are below the threshold that normally triggers an 175 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 5: FBI investigation, but it's kind of like, aha, we can 176 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 5: put them in jail for this and disrupt their activities. 177 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 5: And you know, when the person you're looking at is 178 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 5: actually al Capone or somebody like him who is actually 179 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 5: a gangland leader, and there's plenty of evidence to show that, 180 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 5: just can't get witnesses to testify. You know, that might 181 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 5: seem like a rational methodology, but when the FBI perceives 182 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 5: somebody is dangerous because of their advocacy, and you know, 183 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 5: throughout history, including recent events, we've seen that they tend 184 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 5: to view social movements led by people of color as 185 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 5: threatening to the nation's security, threatening to the status quo 186 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 5: in a way that they don't see white militancy as 187 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 5: the same kind of threat. So who they perceive as 188 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 5: a terrorist is very biased, and then adopting them that 189 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 5: selectively prosecute them for crimes is in itself a bias 190 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 5: activity because they're not actually engaging in terrorist activity. 191 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 4: What would be the next step, potentially, do you just 192 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 4: prosecute can get a person like that out of what 193 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 4: they consider, you know, arms way, or do you then 194 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 4: try to flip that person and get them feeding you 195 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 4: on you know other people in the circle. 196 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 5: Well, both are considered legitimate tactics under the disruption strategy 197 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 5: that's documented in a two thousand and nine document called 198 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 5: Spaceline Collection Plan. So it could be finding some other 199 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 5: unrelated charge like felling in possession of firearms and putting 200 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 5: that person away for a period of time, and that's 201 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 5: considered disrupting their criminal activities in the case of graectic 202 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 5: terrors and their terrorist activities, when the reason for the 203 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 5: suspicion is that their advocacy is somehow dangerous. 204 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: It's well known that the FBI under j. Edgar Hoover 205 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: employed disruption tactics against the civil rights movement and its 206 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:24,479 Speaker 1: leaders as part of their Cointel pro program. For instance, 207 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: they sent an anonymous letter to doctor Martin Luther King, Junior, 208 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: disparaging him and urging him on to some unspecified act, 209 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: which doctor King himself believed was to commit suicide. Also, 210 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: the FBI was instrumental in the Chicago raid that resulted 211 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: in the assassination of Fred Hampton, Junior. But those FBI 212 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: actions all occurred before the Church Committee in nineteen seventy five, 213 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: chaired by Senator Frank Church. This massive investigation into abuses 214 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: by the CIA, NSA, FBI, and irs not only turned 215 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: up illegal operations like the FBI's co Intel pro and 216 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: CIA's mk Ultra, but it resulted in the creation of 217 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. This new level of 218 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: oversight was intended to reign in unethical, unconstitutional, and frankly 219 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: on American behaviors of the intelligence agencies. Certainly, we could 220 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: argue all day about how successful this oversight is, but 221 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: what seems clear is that the modern FBI seems less 222 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: inclined to kill, but rather incredibly intent on disrupting and 223 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,479 Speaker 1: arresting the individuals they target. A modern example. 224 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 11: After the break, now back to the show, how did 225 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 11: you end up on the Denver story in particular of 226 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 11: all the ones that you might have chosen in this area. 227 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 3: To explain that, I need to back up a little 228 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 3: bit and just explain that I'd be probably going back 229 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 3: to like two thousand and nine. I'd been looking into 230 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 3: the FBI's use of informants and sting operations in the 231 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 3: context of terrorism, and my criticism is that the bureau 232 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 3: would find kind of impressionable people who don't have access 233 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 3: to terrorist organizations, don't have weapons on their own, and 234 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 3: then they would provide them with the means of opportunity 235 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 3: to commit some sort of bombing or similar terrorists like crime. 236 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 3: In some of these cases, the targets of these things 237 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 3: end up being mentally ill or financially desperate in a 238 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,719 Speaker 3: way that makes them vulnerable to an informants instigation. 239 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 2: This is journalist Trevor Aronson. In twenty twenty three, he 240 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 2: published a story in The Intercept about how the FBI 241 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 2: paid a violent felon to infiltrate the racial justice movement 242 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: that formed in Denver after the killing of George Floyd. 243 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: As we've heard from Saint Louis locals who participated in 244 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 2: the Ferguson movement, there was a lot of suspicion that 245 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 2: informants were mixed into the crowd. In such environment, it's 246 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: easy to become paranoid. Stories like the one Trevor broke 247 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 2: about Denver served to show us that what some might 248 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: call paranoia is sometimes not paranoia at all. 249 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 3: The unrest in twenty twenty happened, and that coming on 250 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 3: the heels of the FBI defining Black identity extremism as 251 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 3: a form of domestic terrorism. I really had this hunch 252 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 3: that the FBI was using the same type of tactics 253 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 3: against political activists, and I felt like it was a 254 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 3: pretty good hunch and an educated guest, but I didn't 255 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 3: have any proof, and so I spent like a good 256 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 3: year trying to find examples of this. There were all 257 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 3: sorts of rumors that summer about government infiltrators and people 258 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 3: who were acting suspicious, but there wasn't a lot of 259 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 3: proof that these people were government infiltrators. And so in 260 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 3: trying to find this proof that this was happening, I 261 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 3: ended up getting leaked to me this cash of documents 262 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 3: and recordings from Denver that proved that. So it wasn't 263 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 3: like I just went out and picked Denver as the 264 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 3: case study that I would pursue. It was more that 265 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 3: Denver kind of found me for these leaked documents, and 266 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 3: then I was able to go to Denver and report 267 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 3: it out and kind of use Denver as a as 268 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 3: a case study of what was likely happening nationwide. 269 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 2: What Trevor documents in his reporting is that the FBI 270 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: paid a man named Mickey Windecker to infiltrate the movement 271 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: in Denver. When Trevor asked Mickey to comment on working 272 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 2: for the FBI, Mickey initially denied having done so, but 273 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 2: Trevor had copies of payment receipts to the tune of 274 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 2: twenty thousand dollars from the FBI to Mickey, and the 275 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: FBI didn't just want Mickey to act as eyes and 276 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 2: ears within the movement, they wanted him to go to 277 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: an activist into committing a felony. Trevor notes that this 278 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: focus on black social movements by federal law enforcement comes 279 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: in the wake of the FBI's coining of the term 280 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 2: black identity extremist. 281 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 3: The FBI was specifically investigating a number of black activists 282 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 3: whose only reason for suspicion, as far as the FBI 283 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 3: was concerned, was a result of their gun ownership. And 284 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 3: you don't see that kind of investigative activity happening targeting 285 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 3: white political activists, white people in general, And so I 286 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 3: think you can point to a double standard. What makes 287 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 3: it harder to kind of quantify the FBI's efforts related 288 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 3: to black identity extremism is that once black identity extremism 289 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 3: as a label became public, it was met with criticism 290 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 3: by people in the press, by people on Capitol Hill. 291 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 3: And what the FBI did was publicly backtrack essentially right, 292 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 3: They said that they no longer use the term black 293 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 3: identity extremism and have instead created this new category under 294 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 3: domestic terrorism called racially motivated biolent extremism, which lumped together 295 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 3: so called black identity extremism with white supremacists and white 296 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 3: nationalists and other kind of racially based extremism in the 297 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 3: FBI's term. And so in that way it becomes harder 298 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 3: to quantify the efforts that the FBI makes specifically toward 299 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 3: black identity extremism. 300 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 2: We explained to Trevor that before being murdered, Darren had 301 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 2: expressed to his friends and family that he expected to 302 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 2: be killed specifically by the FBI, and we asked if 303 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 2: he thought that, in the post Church Committee era, such 304 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 2: an extra judicial killing by the FBI was even reasonable 305 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: to consider. 306 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 3: And, yeah, anything is possible. I guess I would be 307 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 3: quite skeptical of that, unless you know, Facebook like overwhelming 308 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 3: up and it's the contrary. 309 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 7: Is it possible that like. 310 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 3: An agent acting on his own volition or an informant 311 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 3: acting on his own volition killed someone like Darren Fields? Like, sure, 312 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 3: I mean it's possible. I think it's highly unlikely. I 313 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 3: think it's even more unlikely that that would in any 314 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 3: way be condoned or ordered as an official part of 315 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 3: business for the FBI. That's that a case agent or 316 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 3: a supervisor was ordering such a thing. 317 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 5: I mean, I think that's. 318 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 3: Highly, highly unlikely. I would note that kind of on 319 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 3: a more global level, that anyone who tends to be 320 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 3: under surveillance by the FBI like generally ends up being 321 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 3: somewhat paranoid about what's happening to them. And that's the 322 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 3: nature of that, right, Like, if you realize that you 323 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 3: were under suspicion or under surveillance by the FBI, you 324 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 3: may see an agent, but then you end up being 325 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 3: at a coffee shop or a Walmart, a grocery store, 326 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 3: and you see someone who looks like an agent in 327 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 3: your mind and they're not, and in your mind, they're like, oh, they. 328 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 5: Must be an ancient. 329 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 3: And that's part of the process that the FBI has 330 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 3: in providing surveillance on someone. It can be twofold. They 331 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 3: may choose to surveil someone in a way that they 332 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 3: are quite discreet, and that person may not know that 333 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 3: they are under surveillance. But there's also a strategy that 334 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 3: the FBI has of putting someone under surveillance in a 335 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 3: way that they know they're under surveillance to prevent them 336 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 3: from the activism, to prevent them from doing crimes, just 337 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 3: to like to see what they do when they're facing 338 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 3: that suspicion. And so I think that kind of tactic 339 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 3: used by the FBI, if it was used, is the 340 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 3: type that reads paranoia, where someone might say, like, you know, 341 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,719 Speaker 3: if something happens to me, it's the FBI. 342 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: Mike Jerman had suggested that the agents who are surveilling 343 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 2: seals may have opened their report based on information they 344 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 2: receive from an informant. Unfortunately, the FBI report couldn't give 345 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 2: us any help in this area, again because of its 346 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 2: near total reaction. We ask Trevor what he knew about 347 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 2: how close informants have been known to get with their targets. 348 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 3: There have been cases of allegations involving like sexual relationships 349 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 3: between informants and their targets, but that is pretty rare. 350 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 3: It's more common that the informants have an intense personal 351 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 3: relationship with the targets of their investigation than that they 352 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 3: would be investigating that person from a distance just simply 353 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 3: because you're obviously not going to get a whole lot 354 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 3: of information about people if you're not close to them. 355 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 3: And so the case with Mickey, Windecker and Denver is 356 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 3: more typically the case of an informant led investigation, in 357 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 3: that the informant not only becomes an integral part of 358 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 3: the supposed conspiracy group, but then also develops very intense 359 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 3: relationships with the targets of the investigation, right. And in 360 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 3: many terrorism investigations, for example, the informant almost plays the 361 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 3: big brother fatherlike role to the targets of the investigation. 362 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 3: And so there's an inherent psychological element where there are 363 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 3: feelings that, you know, the person under investigation doesn't want 364 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 3: to disappoint this person because this person has a brotherly 365 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 3: role in their life, you know. So much so that 366 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 3: a federal judge had commented in one case that informants 367 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 3: are by nature of sociopaths, right, because the job of 368 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 3: an informant is to get to know someone over a 369 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 3: period of weeks, months, if not years, and become an 370 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 3: integral part of that person's life, knowing the entire time 371 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 3: that you're going to send that person to prison for years, right, 372 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 3: And so the ability to kind of do that kind 373 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 3: of work takes a sociopathic personality, and I think that's 374 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 3: true of a lot of informants. I think that's likely 375 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 3: true of someone like Mickey Windecker in Denver. 376 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 2: Given Trevor's comments about the brotherly relationships utilized by FBI 377 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: informants to ingratiate themselves with the target, you couldn't help 378 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 2: but wonder if anyone in Darren's life might be working 379 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: for the FEDS, someone from the Ferguson movement or the 380 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: hip hop world. 381 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 5: Perhaps. 382 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 3: I tend to find FOYA to be a hindurance more 383 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 3: than anything else, so I don't generally rely on it. 384 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 3: The only way to who it well is to have 385 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 3: a lawyer who's willing to get about for you on 386 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:17,959 Speaker 3: those cases. 387 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 7: Yeah, we noticed the activists who actually got, you know, 388 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 7: the only document related to the Darren Seals surveillance. He 389 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 7: waited about two years for it, which would have meant 390 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 7: that he put in the foyer around September twenty twenty. 391 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 7: And we noticed that the document itself referenced that it 392 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 7: had been declassified officially as of October twenty twenty. So 393 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 7: it made us wonder why they would have made him 394 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 7: wait two years for a response on a document that 395 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 7: they'd already just declassified at the time of his request. 396 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's part of the system, right, it's intentional. 397 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 3: It's like to make you wait. It's a good way 398 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 3: to dissuade people from doing stories, right because by the 399 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 3: time you get your documents, there's a good chance that 400 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 3: you're no longer interested in the story that he finally 401 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 3: got documents from the Foyer. System is broken, but it's 402 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 3: not broken as far as the government is concerned. 403 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 2: More after the break. 404 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 11: Now back to the show, When was your last contact 405 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 11: with the FBI? 406 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 6: Well, I forget the lady mean, she was very highly intelligent. 407 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: This is Darren's mother. Funny again, was. 408 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 4: This the Saint Lewis FBI office? So you want to 409 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 4: see her? 410 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 6: When we got her, I told her, I said my 411 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 6: son was assassinated, because I said it from day one 412 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 6: before these papers came out, the nine hundred sheets. And 413 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 6: she said no, she said, I don't see why. I 414 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 6: don't believe that what happened. So I told I said, well, 415 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 6: if you don't believe he was assassinated, why did take 416 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 6: eight or ten police cause to pull him over? And 417 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 6: his life was expended, it ain't come up. 418 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 4: When you met with FBI. Did they ever volunteer or 419 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 4: reveal that your son was being surveilled for the six 420 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 4: months before he died. No, that would have been nice 421 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 4: for them to make clear. At that point, Binnie. 422 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: Believed that the FBI had killed her son before the 423 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: nine hundred page report proving their surveillance had ever been 424 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: made public. What we wanted to know is why the 425 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: surveillance began when it did. 426 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 4: When I heard that there was this document that had 427 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 4: come out, I assumed it was going to show that 428 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 4: Darren Seals had been followed since the beginning of the 429 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 4: Ferguson Mike Brown movement, So since maybe about let's say 430 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 4: September of twenty fourteen, when he really he rose to 431 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 4: prominence and he was very well known in twenty fifteen. 432 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 4: Is there anything you make of this timing? Why did 433 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 4: they start this thing on March third, twenty sixteen, a 434 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 4: year and a half or more in his known activities? 435 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 4: Hard to tell. 436 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 5: Particularly. You got to keep in mind that if you 437 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 5: look at the first page of what the FBI said, 438 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 5: there are a whole lot of pages that the FBI 439 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 5: found regarding Darren Fields that are not disclosed, So there's 440 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 5: a lot of activity that is still hidden. And this 441 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 5: is one of the methods the FBI and the Justice 442 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 5: Department used to subvert Freedom of Information Act requests is 443 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 5: and I'm not sure how this case proceeded, but typically 444 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 5: the FBI either completely ignored or slow walks Freedom of 445 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 5: Information Act requests. In many cases, the FBI will say, 446 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 5: we don't have any records, and that could indicate one 447 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 5: of two things. One that they don't have records, too 448 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 5: that they have records that they just hadn't really searched 449 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 5: very hard for because they only conduct a search of 450 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 5: one database, the main files they're called. But now that 451 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 5: the FBI has redefined itself as a domestic intelligence agency, 452 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 5: it has many other huge databases, including one that has 453 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 5: been called the Investigative Data Warehouse. Typically in litigation there 454 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 5: will be more arduous and more arguous search is done 455 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 5: if you get a judge who is interested in applying 456 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 5: the FOIL law has written. But it's an expensive and 457 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 5: time consuming process, and I think part of the way 458 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 5: they see it working is that because documents are released 459 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 5: in dribs and drabs, it doesn't create a whole story. 460 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: In examining the FBI report, we've been tempted to guess 461 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: which words or names might fit in certain blank spots. 462 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: But Mike suggests that this is a fool's errand. 463 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 5: That's always fraught because you know, there's an old adage 464 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 5: that you don't know what you don't know, and you know, 465 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 5: particularly having done investigations, it's kind of risky to guess. 466 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 5: There's exclusions and exceptions. The exclusions are what's written here 467 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 5: on every document where there's a reaction D seven e 468 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 5: B seven D. These are referencing the part of the 469 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 5: statute that says they can hide certain types of information 470 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 5: even as they turn over the occuments. But there are 471 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 5: also exceptions to the employer, which include things like informant files, 472 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 5: and in the past, the FBI would say we have 473 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 5: no records because the way they interpreted that exception was 474 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 5: they didn't even have to acknowledge that those records existed, 475 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 5: so they could provide a false no records reply to 476 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 5: comply with the law. At the HLU, we worked with 477 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 5: the Justice Department during the Obama administration to point out 478 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 5: that having the government lie on employer responses was not 479 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 5: the best way that the government would enforce the spirit 480 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 5: the Free with Information Act law. So now what they 481 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 5: do is when they send you a request, they will 482 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 5: often just cite those exceptions and say, you know, if 483 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 5: there were records under these exceptions to the rule, we 484 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 5: would not disclose them or acknowledge that we had them. 485 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: What's really interesting about what Mike is telling us that 486 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: in cases of records concerning an informant, the FBI will 487 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: tell a request or that they cannot confirm or deny 488 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: that they possess records on the individual, is that we 489 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: made a FOYO request to the FBI that got this 490 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: exact response. In early twenty twenty three, our producer John 491 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,959 Speaker 1: Duffy made a FOYO request to the FBI regarding someone 492 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: in Darren's life. Eventually, Duffy was emailed a response to 493 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 1: that request that had links to three PDF documents, and 494 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: their file names were the same sort of strings of 495 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,959 Speaker 1: characters that Darren's FBI file consisted of. But when Duffy 496 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: tried opening these links, they all resulted in a four 497 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: h four error, like the linked PDF documents had been removed. 498 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: After emailing a complaint to the FBI asking that they 499 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: fixed the error and waiting and waiting while they ignored him. 500 00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: Duffy eventually just resubmitted his exact same FOYO request, but 501 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: this time he was sent a letter in the mail 502 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: as a response. This letter said, quote, you have requested 503 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: records on one or more third party individuals. Please be 504 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: advised that the FBI will neither confirm nor deny the 505 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,959 Speaker 1: existence of such records, pursue it to FOYA exemptions, and 506 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 1: then they list the exemption codes. Duffy appealed this decision 507 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: with the FBI's Office of Information Policy, explaining he had 508 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: originally been emailed three defunct links to files. In July 509 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, the FBI granted his appeal and 510 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: reopened his FOYO request, but ten days later sent him 511 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: another letter saying that they searched their central record system 512 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: but found no documents. This whole affair is suspicious as hell, 513 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: to say the least, the FBI emailing links to PDFs, 514 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: then quickly pulling the linked files so they couldn't be accessed, 515 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: then refusing to fix them, then pretending no files exist 516 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: in their databases at all. Add in the fat that 517 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: their letter uses the language. Mike Germann says would be 518 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: used in the case of an FBI informant. And it's 519 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: hard not to suspect that the FBI is hiding something 520 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: regarding the man in question. And who is that person 521 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: who is the subject of our producer's wild Foya goose Chase, 522 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: Anthony Irvin, better known by his street name Keilo. 523 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 10: I just sent you another email, So you've got my email, 524 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 10: You've got my number? 525 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 8: Is including in those emails? Does it include the dates 526 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 8: that you got the initial recommendations from the police. 527 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: This is our producer John Duffy talking to Sherry Luter, 528 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: a paralegal at this Saint Lewis County Prosecuting Attorney's office. 529 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: She called him back in response to his Sunshine request, 530 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: seeking to know the name of the individual that the 531 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: county police believed was responsible for killing Darren. He was 532 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: driving when she called, so he had to quickly turn 533 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: on a recording device, and that's why there's road noise 534 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: in the background. He is asking her when exactly the 535 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: police passed this name to the prosecutor's office. 536 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 10: I can tell you when. Let me get this case 537 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 10: up here and look at it. It was November second 538 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 10: of twenty eighteen. Okay, then the prosecutor who was looking 539 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 10: into this, who was going to be assigned this case. 540 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 10: Less than two months later she left, So this was 541 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 10: you know, we never this case never got issued. However, 542 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 10: I do see mister Irvin is deceased, and I don't 543 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 10: know when he passed way. 544 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: Mister Irvin again was Darren's friend Kilo, and will continue 545 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: to refer to him as Kelo to avoid confusion. Kilo 546 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: was a member of the Bottom Boys, and Bonnie told 547 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,479 Speaker 1: us Darren had been on the phone with Kelo talking 548 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: about a music video deal the day he died, and 549 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: that it was Kelo he was going to see when 550 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: he left his girlfriend Naomi at home making taco bulls, 551 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: having told her that he would be right back. Kelo 552 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: himself was murdered in twenty twenty, which lines up with 553 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: what the police said about their suspect being deceased. 554 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 8: He died in April of twenty twenty. 555 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 10: Oh okay, okay, okay, So yeah, so yeah, so this 556 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 10: would have just this would have you know, obviously, then 557 00:31:54,440 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 10: it's just the sat SO and the process. Like I said, 558 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 10: the prosecutor that would have been handling this left so 559 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 10: and then at that point we had a change of 560 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 10: administration here and so anyway, basically, this just kind of 561 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 10: and I can't explain why. I don't know, that's not 562 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 10: my area. 563 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: After being told that Kilo died a year and a 564 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: half after he was recommended for prosecution, Cherry doesn't know 565 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: what to say. It seems she is weighing the gravity 566 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: of the fact that his death was not what prevented 567 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: the case from going forward, but that someone along the 568 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: way dropped the ball. I'm a journalist. 569 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 8: I'm working on a story about Darren Seal's death, and 570 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 8: we've been talking to a lot of people in his world, 571 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 8: in the community, and on our own. We were able 572 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 8: to come up with Anthony Irvin. The reason I sunshined 573 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 8: the prosecutor's office was to get confirmation of that detail. 574 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 8: But in so far as Darren's murder, there had to 575 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,239 Speaker 8: be multiple people involved to move his vehicle and to 576 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 8: get away from the location, things like that, Like, I. 577 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 10: Don't see any there's nothing on here. There's no co 578 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 10: defendant link to this case. So I do not know. 579 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 10: But I do know that my supervisor has actually looked 580 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 10: at this. I know he's got he got the police report. 581 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 10: I know he's looking at this, or it's going to 582 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 10: be looked at to see if there is a second 583 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 10: person who we should be looking at. 584 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: Maybe it goes without saying that the idea that a 585 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: team of journalists investigating a seven year old homicide would 586 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: be what it takes for a prosecutor's office to examine 587 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: their own cases is not ideal. But apparently that's what 588 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: had to happen. 589 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 8: Was there an official reason for holding off on prosecuting 590 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 8: Anthony Irvin at the time? Was it because you needed 591 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 8: more evidence? 592 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 4: You know? 593 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 10: I do not know. This is so old and both 594 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 10: of the attorneys that review this are gone. 595 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 8: Were they from the previous administration? Were they Bob McCullough's 596 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 8: people or were they Wesley Bell's people? 597 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 10: These were Bob's people? 598 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 5: Okay? 599 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 8: When a prosecutor leaves the office, what's the official workflow 600 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 8: to make sure that the case that's being processed, the 601 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:26,320 Speaker 8: ball doesn't get dropped. 602 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:32,439 Speaker 10: Typically the case it will get reassigned to a different prosecutor. 603 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 8: So there's a prosecutor now who has this case. Did 604 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 8: they just give it up because mister Irvin passed away? 605 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 10: Or I don't know where the disconnect here is. I 606 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 10: don't know what happened. I don't know why. It's at 607 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 10: both people that touched this case are gone, and one 608 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 10: of them was the prosecutor's supervisor and she left also. 609 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,280 Speaker 8: I mean, obviously there's the unfortunate matter of a family 610 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 8: who's like, oh, who killed my son, wanting the justice 611 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 8: or wanting the closure and then not getting it. 612 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 3: But there's the other. 613 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 8: Issue here is that in theory, had Anthony Irvin been arrested, 614 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 8: he may himself not been murdered. If he had been 615 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 8: arrested and brought to trial for killing Darren, he in theory, 616 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 8: could be alive and in prison right now. And that's hypothetical, 617 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 8: of course, But so that's just what I'm what I'm 618 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 8: curious about, Like, you know, what happened in that that 619 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,439 Speaker 8: you know, year and a half period between it being 620 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 8: suggested and him himself being killed. And I know you 621 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 8: probably don't have those answers, but I'm just you know, 622 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 8: that's just where my mind goes when you tell me this. 623 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 10: Yes, I totally understand, yeah, and I'm not sure. I'm 624 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 10: not sure. Well, I certainly don't have that answer, and 625 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 10: I'm not sure anybody here does. 626 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 2: Honestly, the detectives who investigated Darren's murder believe that his 627 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 2: friend Kilo was responsible, strongly enough to suggest him to 628 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 2: the County Attorney's office for prosecutor. Though no one in 629 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 2: the hip hop world ever told us specifically that they 630 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 2: believed it was Kilo who killed Darren, the suggestion that 631 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 2: the murder was related to music business deals and that 632 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 2: Darren's killer had already himself been murdered were enough for 633 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 2: us to suspect Kelo. The fact that Kilo was alive 634 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 2: for a year and a half and walking the streets 635 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 2: a free man after the police gave his name to 636 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 2: the prosecutor's office as their prime suspect is not only 637 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 2: unnerving but odd. And still there's the matter of not 638 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 2: only who the other people involved in Darren's murder were, 639 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 2: but who killed Keilo? Is it, as Tef Poe says, 640 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 2: that Kilo was murdered in retribution for killing Darren? Was 641 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 2: his death related to Darren's at all? Or is that 642 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 2: just a rumor that's next time on After the Uprising. 643 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 2: After the Uprising is a production of Double Asterisk and 644 00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 2: iHeart podcasts in association with True Stories. Season two was written, reported, 645 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,280 Speaker 2: and produced by Maria Chappelle, Nadal, John Duffy, Mallory Kenoy, 646 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 2: and Renovashlski. Executive producers are Nikki Atour and Lindsay Hoffman 647 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 2: for iHeart Podcasts, John Duffy and Renoviaschewski for Double Asterisk, 648 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 2: David Cassidy and Ruth Baka for True Stories. Directed by 649 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 2: John Duffy and Renoviashlsky. Theme song and score by Zachary Walter. 650 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 2: Sound engineering and mixed by John Autry. Fact checking by 651 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 2: Muffin Humes. Marketing by Alison Canter, Fair Use legal by 652 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 2: Peter Yazzi and Brandon Butler. Legal by Holly Decan for 653 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts and Keith Skarr for Double Asterisk. Missouri Sunshine 654 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 2: Legal by David Rowland. Show logo by iHeart Podcasts using 655 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 2: a photo by at Tillo Dagostino. Our interns were Hannah 656 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 2: Madura and Rosemary Fiery. Website by Stephanie Clark. Recorded at 657 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 2: David Weber's Airtime Studios in Bloomington, Indiana. We want to 658 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 2: acknowledge additional investigation that became part of this podcast was 659 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 2: conducted by Detective Adams in the Saint Louis County Police 660 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 2: and the FBI. Who did not participate in this podcast, 661 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 2: and by a mere Brandy Mosey, Secret and Darnell Singleton. 662 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 2: If you like our work, check out our other podcasts. 663 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 2: You can find us at double asteriskmedia dot com and 664 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 2: on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Support us on Patreon. If 665 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,720 Speaker 2: you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and review 666 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,800 Speaker 2: on your favorite podcast app. Thank you to Jamie Dennis, 667 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 2: Danny Gonzalez, Jonathan Hartwig, Bethan macalouso, Matt McDonough, Melissa McKinnes, 668 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 2: Ryan Mears, Tony and Valenovyshlski and the family and loved 669 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 2: ones of Darren Seals, Bottom Boys and Doa. Tracks used 670 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 2: via fair use, So was the news reporting. Archival copyright 671 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four Double Asteriskink