WEBVTT - Patti Smith Never Wanted to Be Famous 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.920 This is Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:06.840 is the Thing Today. We're live from the Mayo Performing 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:09.959 Arts Center in Morristown, New Jersey, where I sat down 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:19.439 recently with musician, poet and artist Patti Smith. Thank you 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:30.400 for coming. We're here at at the Mayo. My guest 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:33.760 for the show this evening as somebody who is you know, 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:36.560 a very uh unique person in the world of music. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:41.680 You know, a true poet, performance artists. I mean, so 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.080 many things you could apply to her, but I think 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:46.120 most people know her as a as a great and 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:49.599 kind of iconic musician. So please join me in welcoming 0:00:49.600 --> 0:01:09.400 Patti Smith. Hi. We were talking backstage about how I 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:12.920 wonder what it would be like if you and I 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.840 we're kind of starting in our respective businesses. Now do 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:18.640 you think that you're of your time and you came 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.520 right when you should have come, and and if you 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:24.040 were to come onto the scene now with what you 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:28.119 think the music scene is like? Now, well, what would 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.680 you do? I forgot to ask it? What age like? 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:33.600 My age? I came on? Now? Oh god, no, no 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.160 visits applies to me too, No, no, no, no, I'd 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:40.120 be agreed or at a Vegas Hotel. If I was 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:45.600 starting at my age, I actually I have no idea 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:49.880 because I didn't really come into the music business. I was. 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.640 I came. I wound up in music by mistake. I'm 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.440 not really a musician. I didn't really want to be 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.320 a musician or a singer. I just wanted to I 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:02.600 wanted to be a poet and a writer, and it 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:08.399 was accidental. So would it accidentally happen now? I don't 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:10.800 think so. I think I would have to be more 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:14.080 focused on what I wanted. But also because I'm so 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:18.440 on technological and things, I mean, I'm just not really 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:22.520 suited for right now. So probably I would have to 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:27.400 be like a physicist the band in the game. You 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:29.120 don't even drive. No, I don't know how to drive, 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.040 so I couldn't do that. That's true. She doesn't have 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:33.400 a license. I said, you ever live in l A. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:35.080 She said, no, I don't swim and I don't drive. 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.679 That's true. But if you came in now, you'd be 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:42.560 a scientist, you said, Well, I I don't know what 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:44.400 I would be, but I don't think I would have 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:46.760 a problem no matter where I came in. You know, 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:53.160 I would figure out something I'm pretty scrappy now. But 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:55.359 when you say that you weren't a musician, how did 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.440 that begin for you? Well, I mean I came to 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.840 New York in Sevan wanted to be an artist, and 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:08.200 I also wrote poetry. And after I I just started 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:12.280 writing more poetry. And then uh was shepherded by people 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:16.960 like Alan Ginsberg and and William Burrows and Gregory Corso, 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.160 and they all read their poetry. So I wanted to 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.440 read poetry, but I didn't want to be boring because 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:25.720 I went to a lot of poetry readings and they 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:29.680 were snoresville. You know, they were like, sorry, but really boring. 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:34.160 So I just started like, at least have good wine. Wine. 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.280 I didn't even drink, and I don't do anything interesting really, 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:43.760 but I mean, I'll have a shot at to kill everybody. No, 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.080 I mean no, I never had a drug problem. Um. 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:55.080 Minutes on that I had a drug problem was no. Actually, 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:00.560 I was such a sickly kid, um that my parents 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.400 worked so hard to keep me alive that you know 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:05.480 when I when I came out into the world, the 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:07.600 last thing I was going to do is fuck that up. 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.080 You know, I just I'm not I don't have a 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:15.400 self destructive vent. But also when I was a kid, 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:19.599 my mother was a chain smoker, and she I mean 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.599 real true chain smoker, and when she ran out of 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.800 cigarettes and she didn't have money, she would pace all 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.080 night long. I get up at midnight and see my 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:32.040 poor mom pacing because she didn't have a cigarette. And 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:36.479 I thought, then I'm never going to be dependent on anything, 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.240 because I thought, what would happen if you got stranded 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:41.919 on a desert island you didn't have cigarettes, You'd like 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:46.799 fall apart. So it was like an early lesson in uh, 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:53.200 what I didn't wanting a desert cigarettes have to grow 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:57.360 to back end. And then but I feel like somehow 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.080 I didn't answer one of some question. Oh I know, 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.080 because you're yeah, it doesn't matter. You do whatever you 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:05.200 want to do. How I wound up singing. I just 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:08.880 wound up singing, like to make up little singing, little 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:13.160 songs acapella between poems to make it a little more interesting, 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:17.160 and then sort of wrapping poems. And it was just organic. 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.160 Somebody just did it on your own. You didn't see 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.359 anybody else doing that, No, I mean I saw like 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:28.000 be poets or I mean just I think of everybody 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.240 that I was influenced by at that time of my life. 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:35.400 Johnny Carson was the one I just thought, like, you 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.560 didn't have drug problem either. Yeah, I'm not surprised, but 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.880 I mean, but just the fact that Johnny Carson his 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.440 his his ability to improvise or to get himself out 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:49.919 of any situation, that was always what I was looking for. 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:53.480 If I was on stage, gotten a bad situation, find 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.240 my way out of it. You grew up in South Jersey, 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:58.400 and you're kind of tough. The way you grew up. 0:05:58.400 --> 0:05:59.880 Your dad. What did your dad do for a living? 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:04.040 He was worked in a factory. She's waitress. And how 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:06.640 many kids in your family? For for how many boys? 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:11.760 How many girls? Three girls? One boy? And I was 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:17.560 the oldest. And it was tough, Well yeah, I mean 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:21.479 it was financially tough. We had. It was in those 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:25.600 ways very tough. But in another way we had it 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:29.960 was very magical because I had really great siblings. I 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:35.320 had a great imagination, read hundreds of books. My parents. 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:38.520 We knew that they had a lot of strife and stress, 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.960 but you know, it was just the world seems so magical. 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:45.719 It wasn't so bad for us. Books were my salvation 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:49.440 and so I I didn't think of things. The only 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.920 bad thing was when I'd be hungry. I mean truthfully, 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.640 I like to eat. I was really skinny and a 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.760 real I was always hungry and that was my big problem. 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:05.279 Skinny back then, Yeah, really skinny. What do you mean 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.480 You don't believe me? I was. I really were very skinny. 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.800 People think he was being a very thin woman. But 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:14.440 but but you're saying that, So there was. It was tough. 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:16.600 Like I remember, I got a I wrote a memoir 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:18.800 it's coming out in April, and I talked about that. 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:20.880 Like my dad was a school teacher or six kids 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:22.960 and they didn't have any money either. It was really 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:25.080 there was a lot of stress man. Really well, you 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.320 didn't have credit cards and stuff like that. I mean 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.400 it was all like you had cash and you got 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:32.160 you know, if you didn't have money you didn't need. 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:36.240 It wasn't like you know, sometimes you could get you know, 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:40.040 like uh, you know a little credit card at Sears 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:43.760 or something. You know, but um, it was like you said, 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:47.240 you have to use your imagination and reading was for me, 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:50.080 it was like such a huge thing. Your TV back then, 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:52.920 every don't realize who are young here like TV back then, 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.600 you know, they show a TV on TV, they show 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.800 a movie on like NBC. They had like the Sunday 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.440 Night Movie and they're sure a movie that was you know, 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.360 you've everybody's seen a hundred times. You know, they'd say 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:08.000 the sound of Music Sunday and like, oh my god, 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:10.720 We're like run to the TV to watch the sound 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.080 of music on TV, which you know, they didn't have Netflix. 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:18.640 Three three channels that went off at like either ten 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:24.120 o'clock or midnight, and uh, you know, and then cartoons 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:28.360 on Saturday. I I love being a kid. It was awesome. 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:33.520 And then when you left home, where'd you go? New York? 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.120 I left when I was twenty, and basically I left 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:41.280 to get a job because in South Jersey and Philadelphia, 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.480 the New York Shipyard closed down and there were like 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:49.480 thirty thousand jobs overnight were lost and there wasn't any work, 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.160 no matter how low a factory job, nothing, And there 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.800 was no more work, and I needed a job. So 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.040 I went to New York City to get a job. 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:01.839 And where'd you get a job? Um in a bookstore. 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:06.000 I got a a series of bookstores until I really 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:10.680 landed a great bookstore job in Scribner's Bookstore, and I 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.200 worked there for about five years. Doesn't it really tells 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:15.240 a lot about you? That really pretty much sums it 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:17.560 up your home in Jersey. You can't get a job, 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:19.880 You're starving. You're going to New York to get a job. 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.200 I thought you were gonna say in a restaurant. Well, 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:26.439 no idea, soon as you go to a bookstore a 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.199 different kind of food. But no, you know what happened. 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.839 My mother was a waitress and she tried to give 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.480 me a job at her counter, but I was so 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.160 clumsy and such a day dreamer, and she fired me. 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:42.400 And uh so then she was upset that I was 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:45.520 leaving home, but she got She let me take my 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:50.040 white uniform and my wedgies. So the first day I got, 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:52.480 I'm one Time Square, and of course Time Square was 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.600 all different than you know. And uh I got a 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:58.640 little a job immediately because they needed a waitress at 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:01.319 a place a little at town in Plays called Joe's 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:06.959 Um on Times Square. And within like two hours I 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.280 dumped one of the I had a giant tray as 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:15.160 tripped and the whole tray of veal parmesan as went 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.559 on This woman's tweed suit. Not only was I fired, 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.080 but my three hours pay went to her cleaning bill. 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:25.200 So I went back to Port authority, left the waitress 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:29.000 uniform and the wedgies in the girl's bathroom and thought 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:33.720 maybe somebody can use them. And then I looked around 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:39.520 for a better job. How does art, poetry, music come 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:41.319 into your life when you're in New York when you're 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:44.320 twenty years old, Well, first it was just getting a job. 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.480 I didn't get a job the first or second day. 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.360 I mean I was sleeping in the subway, sleeping in 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:54.760 uh Central Park, sleeping at the cemetery and Flushing or 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:59.160 Greenwood or wherever it was and near where Herman Melville 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:04.080 was buried. And uh, it took a little while. And 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:13.760 truthfully it wasn't really until I met I met Robert Maplethorpe, 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:16.679 and uh we met a couple of times. But I 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:20.079 was in a bit of a jam because a grown 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.240 up asked me to go out to eat. He was 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:26.200 probably forty, but I was like twenty. To me, seemed like, 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.959 you know, he was a grown up, you know, And uh, 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.920 I was really afraid that my mother used to say, 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:35.400 don't go out with a stranger because you know, they 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:39.559 just want one thing. And I thought, I was so hungry, 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.040 and he said he would take me to dinner, and 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:46.200 he took me to the Empire State Building diner, and 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.880 I remembered to this day he ordered, uh, we ordered. 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.920 He ordered me swordfish and it was five dollars, and 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:55.960 I thought, he's going to want everything for five dollars. 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:01.959 And I was petrified, and so I I ate that 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:06.319 I couldn't even eat it. And I'm so angry I'm 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:09.760 gonna eat Maybe I should leave now, Yeah, exactly, we're 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:11.960 not that door. But these potatoes are so good. Of 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:14.000 just a couple of more potatoes that I'm going to 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:20.040 write out that door. He'll never know. No, I didn't 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:23.320 know what to do. Then when we walked, No, we didn't. 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.400 We didn't have any dessert. We walked all the way 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.800 down to uh Tompkins Square Park and we were sitting 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.000 there and then all of a sudden, he said, uh, 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.520 I have an apartment right around here. Would and he 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.800 asked me if I wanted to see It was really creepy. 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:43.440 He actually had like it's like like a turtleneck, a 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.079 white turtleneck I remember, and a medallion. I mean it 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:54.120 was really powers. That's so funny. No, he was supposed 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:58.960 to be a science fiction writer, but I was. And 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:01.400 when he said that, I thought, oh my god, this 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:04.240 is the moment, you know, and everything my mother ever 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.720 told me for like ten years of my life. And 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.360 I was sitting there, paralyzed, figuring out what to do. 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.800 And I looked, and I see Robert Maplethorpe coming, you know, 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.320 up through it just coming. It's almost like a cloud 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:22.080 parted and here he comes, with like long curly hair 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:25.840 and a sheepskin vest and you know, and his dungarees. 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.520 And I had only met him once or twice, and 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.199 I didn't even know his name, and I just met 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:34.559 him sort of. And so I ran up to him 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.200 and I said, uh, do you remember me? And he 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.840 goes yeah. And I said, will you pretend you're my boyfriend? 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.720 And he says okay. So I bring him to the 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.040 science fiction guy and I said, this is my boyfriend. 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.960 He's really mad. I gotta go goodbye. And then I 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.400 said to Robert, this is so stupid, but I didn't. 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:58.640 I said run and Robert and I ran. We ran, 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:06.120 we ran, we ran a way, and uh and now 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:08.679 the guy on the turtleneck with the medallion on is 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:14.120 the president elect of the United States? Boy, did you 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:21.280 play your cards wrong? You know? And then my life began. 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.040 Life began that night because Robert and I just roamed around. 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.680 We roamed around the East Village and everywhere all night 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:32.800 long till two in the morning, just talking away. And finally, 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:36.480 almost simultaneously, we both said, do you have a place 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.240 to stay? Neither one of us had anywhere to live, 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:43.600 We didn't have any money. But the differences Robert had 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.600 knew some kids of Pratt and he knew he knew 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:48.800 how to get the key to this one guy's apartment 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:52.480 where his art was stored. So we went there, and 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:54.840 we went to his place, and he showed me all 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:59.080 his drawings and what he was doing. And after that 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:03.080 night we became inseparable. And that set us, at least 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:07.480 me on a path, you know where of drawling and 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:14.640 painting and evolving and writing poetry. And yeah, we've we've 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:21.120 yes through through many things. Yeah, well I was going 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.000 to get into that, but you're with him for a 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:26.640 long long time. And then things changed for you as well, 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:29.280 in terms of your career. Well, I mean, at first, 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.360 I mean, the thing is is that I never cared 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.960 about a career. I have to say, none of those things, 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:42.600 um being in a business, music, business, career, money. What 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.560 what I always wanted, no matter how conceded it sounds, 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.520 is I wanted to do something great. I wanted to 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:53.400 write something as great as Pinocchio or The Scarlet Letter, 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:57.480 or you know, just do something wonderful, write a wonderful book. 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.880 I didn't really care about and don't I don't care 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.400 about having a career or any of that stuff. I 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.640 do my work and in the process, I've had some 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.680 great successes. I've had things that have had me banned 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:13.880 from the world. I've had you know, I've I've been 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:17.280 in trouble, I've done you know, I've left it all behind. 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.280 It's not important to me. It's always important to me. 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.840 Is really just to do something good, to do something 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:29.400 that's uh endoran So when you started to have success, 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:32.440 was that something that was because it was so unfamiliar 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:36.520 to you? There are those people who I'm not going 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.400 to say the word failure. They're more comfortable and anonymity 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.000 than they are being successful and famous because it's familiar. 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.560 Did you find that when you were becoming famous as 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.520 a musician, because primarily you became famous as a musician 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:51.280 as well. At first in the beginning in eight I 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.280 had my first big success with this song I wrote 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:58.640 with Bruce Springsteen. Because the night I thought it was 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.880 thank you, I thought it was I thought it was 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:05.320 exciting to have a song on the radio. I didn't 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.320 think of it in terms of success or failure. It 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:10.359 was just really cool to be on the radio. And 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.840 back then, you know, having a single and meant, you know, 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.160 your records were in the window and and you could, 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.520 you know, you played bigger places and met more people. 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:26.800 But by nine seventy nine, truthfully, I could see that 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:33.639 success was to keep going. You I was doing less work, 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:39.119 less meaningful work, evolving less as a person and an artist, 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.880 and just get more successful. And I thought, that's that's 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.480 not why I was put on the planet. I wasn't 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.439 put on the planet to you know, climb the ladder 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.520 of success. I was here to do certain kind of work, 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.680 and so um I left. I left the music business. 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:01.040 In seventy nine. You separated from Maplethorpe point in well. 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.919 Robert and I separated as a couple in like seventy two, 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:09.880 but never is we were just the same, only we 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:13.919 weren't you know, doing it anymore, you know, but we 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.880 didn't change how we were. We were always just the same. 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:21.200 We were just you know, had different physical partners. So 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:25.560 we never quite really separated until I got married. And you, 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:27.560 I would think I read it in an interview where 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.240 you said it was difficult for him to admit to 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:34.399 his sexuality when he was first Well, I think you know, 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:37.960 it's people. It was a different time. I mean, Robert 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.479 was brought up Catholic. His mother wanted him to be 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:43.840 an altar boy, as father wanted him to be in 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.919 the military, and he wanted to be an artist, but 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.439 he was suppressed that to try to at least please 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:54.919 his father. And Robert got a full scholarship. He was 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.920 very smart. He got a full scholarship to Pratt, a 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:03.560 military scholar ship. But right before I met him, he 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:07.639 just decided that that's not what he wanted. He wanted 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:09.439 to be an artist. He didn't want to be in 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.200 the military. He didn't want to be a commercial artist, 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.560 which is what his father wanted him to do. And 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:22.680 his um his scholarship was based on on on that 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:27.439 pursuit and in in saying that he didn't want to 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:29.639 do that, that he wanted to be an artist. His 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:34.879 father sort of disowned him. He lost a scholarship, lost 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:40.360 his dorm, lost his stipend, like overnight. But he wouldn't 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:44.359 he wouldn't back down. He really, he really believed he 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:46.879 was He knew he was an artist and that's what 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:50.240 he wanted to do. And that's at the moment we met, 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:57.480 he was like he had shed his family, his career, um, 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:02.879 any financial aid that he had, and to you know, 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:07.040 to devote himself to art. And I had left my family, 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.240 you know, um my home and come to New York 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:14.160 to pursue to get a job, but also to pursue 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.720 my path. And we met at a very perfect time, 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:22.359 and they were with him and still connected to him 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:24.840 even when he was very second, when he was and 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:28.000 when he died. Oh yeah, I mean we you know, 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.760 I'm still connected with him. I still think about him 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:34.520 every day, and the things that I learned from him 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.480 or that we we did together inform the work that 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:43.680 I do. I mean, we we bonded so young through art. 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:47.040 I mean, of course, you know, we were boyfriend and girlfriend. 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:51.960 We did all the things young people do but I 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.360 think that is as he felt freer and freer as 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:59.240 an artist in a human being his nature. First he 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:03.240 had to come out as an artist. Then the next 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:08.760 thing that happened is he blossomed and felt his sexual nature. 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:13.600 We had to weather that. We had to, you know, 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.280 try to navigate what this meant, what it meant to 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:20.720 our relationship, what it meant and and it was difficult, 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:23.520 and it took a few years because neither one of 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:29.280 us wanted to part, But eventually we had to part 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.680 as boyfriend and girlfriend because he had to be who 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.520 he needed to be. When did you meet your husband 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:40.280 you eventually got married. I met my husband in ninety 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:45.080 six in Detroit, and I was on the road and 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.840 I met him in Detroit and I saw him. It 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:53.159 was it's like a it's really like a song. I 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.240 saw him across a crowded room. He was just standing 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:59.719 there and it blew overcoat. I didn't know who he was, 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:04.200 and I thought, that's the boy I'm gonna marry. I 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:07.840 swear to you that's true. How old I was about 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:15.080 seventy six, I was about twenty. I don't know. Did 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:19.000 you walk up and tell him that right? No? No, no, 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:24.439 not at all. But Lenny Kay actually introduced us and 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:30.399 he said, Fred Smith, Patti Smith. We just looked at 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:35.800 each other and I don't know, and we finally, Um, 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:39.600 we had a long distance relationship, in fact, because the 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:43.040 night we had a long distant relationship, and neither one 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:44.760 of us had a whole lot of money, and to 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:49.720 make phone calls was expensive, long distance calls I always did. 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:52.720 This day, I hear people my boyfriend only called me 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:55.920 three times today, and I think, Jesus, you know, it's 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:59.240 like I'd have to wait all week to get one 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:05.280 phone call from from Fred. And um, actually, am I 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:08.199 going off the course too? There was no core, is 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:12.560 no course. Yeah, you're my kind of guy. I'm your 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:15.560 kind of passage. I'm your kind of passenger too, because 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:19.200 the autopilot about thirty minutes ago. Now, I mean we're 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:22.480 not going anywhere in particular because I don't know how 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:24.680 to drive and I have no sense of direction. I'm 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:27.280 a really good passenger because I can never tell if 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:31.520 anybody's lost, you know, And I apply that to all 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:34.919 every part of life. But when you met your husband, 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:36.560 and what did he do? Was he a musician? He's 0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:40.080 a he was a musician. He played with the MC five. 0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:44.560 He was a master guitarist. He was really one of 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:48.479 our great guitarist and uh and he's just such a 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:52.679 beautiful man. You know. We just decided, you know, we 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:56.360 we wanted to evolve as human beings, and he wanted children, 0:23:56.440 --> 0:24:01.479 and we just we just decided to withdrawal from public 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:04.800 life and really know each other and when when we 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:09.200 had children, they would really know who we were. And 0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:13.719 and so we did. How long until his he passed 0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:17.520 away and the end of ninety four, so sixteen years, 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:20.000 so sixteen years. You go off the grid. I hate 0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:22.440 that phrase, but that's that's okay. You go off the 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:27.480 grid and just what you do come like blowing out 0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:29.440 of you, like in like weird moments like are you 0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:38.240 looking the check outline? And carrots carrots. Actually they didn't 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:40.359 care who I was, in fact, because I had no 0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:43.080 driver's license. If I wanted to write a check, they 0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:45.719 always hassled me because I didn't have the right idea. 0:24:45.880 --> 0:24:50.159 I'd have to bring my passport everywhere. So that was 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:54.240 Detroit sixteen years. What was it like, did you paint? 0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:59.639 I know I didn't paint, because um, it was just 0:24:59.680 --> 0:25:02.280 the way are living quarters were I didn't really have 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:04.879