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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, where we explore

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Speaker 1: the intersection of technology, social media, and identity. And this

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Speaker 1: is another installment of our weekly news ground Up, where

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Speaker 1: we dig into the stories that you might have missed

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Speaker 1: on the Internet. So you don't have to, okay, Producer Mike,

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Speaker 1: I swear to you, this podcast is not going to

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Speaker 1: turn into just me making fun of people with massive

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Speaker 1: platforms falling for what I believe to be obvious AI,

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Speaker 1: But can you will you allow me one real quick

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Speaker 1: to kick us.

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Speaker 2: Off as long as our platform is very massive.

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Speaker 1: While we're talking about Joe Rogan, so I don't know

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Speaker 1: how much larger a podcast platform can get. Because Joe

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Speaker 1: Rogan on his show fell for this deep fake video

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Speaker 1: of Tim Waltz wearing a T shirt that said Fuck Trump,

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Speaker 1: dancing on an elevator and a mall and like smacking

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Speaker 1: his own butt. You can tell that Rogan clearly thinks

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Speaker 1: this is real the way that he so casually kind

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Speaker 1: of slips it into conversation he's talking about how the

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Speaker 1: Democrats are so weird and that Tim Walls is so

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Speaker 1: weird that after his failed vice presidential bid, he just

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Speaker 1: like Democrats have basically just dropped him because he's so weird,

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Speaker 1: and he just kind of slips in like, oh, did

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Speaker 1: you see this weird video of him dancing wearing the

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Speaker 1: fuck Trump shirt? And that I feel like that's how

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Speaker 1: you know that he thought it was real, that he

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Speaker 1: just that it's just embedded in his brain and it's

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Speaker 1: become what is real?

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Speaker 3: You know what's really fun? Yeah, when someone is in

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Speaker 3: that whole race and running for president or vice president

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Speaker 3: and then the race is over and they realize that

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Speaker 3: person was a liability so they caught them off, and

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Speaker 3: then that person goes wacky like Tim Walls. You see

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Speaker 3: where he had a fuck Trump shirt on and he's

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Speaker 3: dancing and going down an elevator.

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Speaker 1: And when he's called out, he does the thing that

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Speaker 1: I feel we're seeing so much of where he says, well,

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Speaker 1: it may not be real, but I could see him

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Speaker 1: doing it. So doesn't it say something that I that

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Speaker 1: I thought it was real? Doesn't that make a difference?

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Speaker 2: Does it say that it's ai? You say it's AI.

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Speaker 2: Everybody says it.

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Speaker 1: Video I played on Top says it's AI generated.

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Speaker 3: Riley Moore fell for an AI generated video of Minnesota.

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Speaker 3: Go I fell for it too, And you know why

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Speaker 3: I fell for it because I believe that he's capable

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Speaker 3: of doing so much.

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Speaker 2: That's his essence. That's like the new thing to do

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Speaker 2: when you publicly endorse an obviously AI video is say oh,

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Speaker 2: but it's it's something they would do anyway. It's close

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Speaker 2: enough to reel. You know, we saw Chris Cuomo do

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Speaker 2: that a couple of weeks ago with AOC and now

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Speaker 2: you know, Joe Rogan is doubling down like, oh, isn't

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Speaker 2: that real? I would?

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Speaker 4: I would?

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Speaker 2: You know, it seems like something he would do. It's

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Speaker 2: pretty pretty weak.

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Speaker 1: There's a comic floating around the Internet that I'll put

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Speaker 1: in the show note that really speaks to the frustration

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Speaker 1: around this, where the person who has just been duped says, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: it says something that I thought this was real, and

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Speaker 1: the other person is just screaming into the void because

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Speaker 1: that's such a frustrating response. But I do think that's

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Speaker 1: where we're at. And something about this Joe Rogan clip

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Speaker 1: got to me because he was such a significant voice

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Speaker 1: that shaped our election, that shaped where we are in

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Speaker 1: this current moment in politics, and then seeing evidence with

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Speaker 1: my own eyes that he basically is on the operating

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Speaker 1: on the same plane as your uncle who is obsessed

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Speaker 1: with Facebook and is you know, thinks everything they see

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Speaker 1: on the Internet is real. That is the voice that

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Speaker 1: is shaped so much of where we are politically. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: it kind of makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. It is in

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Speaker 2: no way surprising that where we are currently politically has

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Speaker 2: been shaped by people who are unable to distinguish fact

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Speaker 2: from reality. Like that makes so much sense in explaining

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Speaker 2: the shit storm that's happening outside my window.

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Speaker 1: And not even that they cannot distinguish fact from reality

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Speaker 1: and then expect people to be held accountable for this

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Speaker 1: fictional world that AI has propped up for them, and

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Speaker 1: so yeah, I mean, they're just living in a fantasy world. Baby.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of fake nonsense, let's talk about what's going on

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Speaker 1: at Meta, because a few weeks ago we told you

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Speaker 1: all about this Kendall Jenner collaboration with Meta that spawned

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Speaker 1: a chatbot kind of in Kendall Jenner's likeness called Big

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Speaker 1: Sis Billy that tragically lured a man to his death.

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Speaker 1: The chatbot insisted to this man that she was real,

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Speaker 1: invited this man, who had cognitive issues from an earlier stroke,

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Speaker 1: to visit her in New York City. Tragically, he never

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Speaker 1: made it home. Well. That bot was designed with Kendall

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Speaker 1: Jenner's permission during a short lived thing where Meta was

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Speaker 1: partnering with celebrities to create chatbots, But according to this

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Speaker 1: new report at Reuter's Metta also developed a slew of

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Speaker 1: fl certacious chatbots using the names and likenesses of real

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Speaker 1: celebrities like Taylor Swift, Scarlett Johansson and Hathaway and Selena

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Speaker 1: Gomez without their permission. Now, some of these bots were

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Speaker 1: created by random regular users with a Meta tool for

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Speaker 1: building chatbots, but Reuters did discover that an actual Meta

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Speaker 1: employee had produced at least three of these unauthorized celebrity chatbots,

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Speaker 1: including two Taylor Swift parody bots parodies and scare quotes there.

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Speaker 2: Why is it always Taylor Swift? I feel like we're

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Speaker 2: constantly talking about weirdos at like Meta and particularly Exiti

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Speaker 2: and particularly Elon Musk, and it's always Taylor Swift.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, this could be a whole episode. I'm

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Speaker 1: so glad that you brought that up. We might have

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Speaker 1: to tap in Joey, our other super producer, as our

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift correspondent, because they know a lot about Taylor

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Speaker 1: Swift more than I do. But I think that there's

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Speaker 1: something about Taylor Swift that represents so many things that

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Speaker 1: tech at the intersection of identity and technology, right. This

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Speaker 1: woman is this young woman who is a billionaire, who

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Speaker 1: has amassed all of this power, all of these followers,

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Speaker 1: and yet is both kind of overexposed and unknowable. I

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Speaker 1: think there's something there's something about Taylor Swift that just

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Speaker 1: we're talking about her constantly on the podcast, and constantly

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Speaker 1: she is at the center of all of these tech stories.

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Speaker 1: So about these meta unauthorized celebrity chatbots, this is pretty disturbing.

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Speaker 1: Users could even make chatbots of child celebrities, including Walker Scobel,

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Speaker 1: a sixteen year old movie star. I didn't know who

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Speaker 1: that was, but he's in the Percy Jackson Disney Show.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to our producer Joey for knowing that when

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Speaker 1: asked to produce a picture of this miner at the beach,

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Speaker 1: The Meta bot produced a lifelike shortless image. Pretty cute, huh,

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Speaker 1: the avatar wrote beneath the picture. This really stuck out

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Speaker 1: to me because one of the bits from the earlier

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Speaker 1: story that we told you all about the Kendall Jenner

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Speaker 1: collaboration with Meta that I don't think we got into

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Speaker 1: in that episode was the reporting on that particular bot

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Speaker 1: that Meta made with Jenner. Also revealed some troubling internal

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Speaker 1: documents about how Meta allowed its chatbots to interact with children.

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Speaker 1: Now we know Mark Zuckerberg has notoriously wanted to move

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Speaker 1: fast and break things when it comes to AI and chatbots.

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Speaker 1: He really wants his developers to pump the gas when

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Speaker 1: it comes to these chatbots and anything that might get

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Speaker 1: people more excited about them to interact with them more

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Speaker 1: and more. He's like, let's do it, including okaying metas

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Speaker 1: chatbots having sensual conversations with kids. Reuter saw an internal

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Speaker 1: Meta policy document, as well as interviews with folks familiar

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Speaker 1: with this chatbot training show that metas policies have treated

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Speaker 1: romantic overtures as a feature of its generative AI products,

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Speaker 1: which are available to users aged thirteen and up. So

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Speaker 1: this is from a policy document that somebody working at

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Speaker 1: Meta thought was a good idea to write down as

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Speaker 1: part of an official policy document. Quote, it is acceptable

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Speaker 1: to engage a child in conversations that are romantic or sensual.

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Speaker 1: This is from Meta's document called gen Ai Content Risk Standards,

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Speaker 1: which are basically the standards used by the company to

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Speaker 1: build and train the company's generative AI products, including defining

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Speaker 1: what they should and shouldn't treat as permissible chatbop behavior. So,

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Speaker 1: when Reuter's reached out to Meta about this document, Meta

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, no, no, don't worry. Don't worry, we took

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Speaker 1: that provision out. I'm so sure that they happen to

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Speaker 1: take that provision out. Right after Reuter's was like, sorry,

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Speaker 1: y'all making chatbots that have spicy chats with kids or what?

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Speaker 2: It is wild as somebody thought writing that down was

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Speaker 2: a good idea, Like, even if they thought nobody was

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Speaker 2: going to see it, you would hope that as their

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Speaker 2: fingers were taken to keyboard, they'd be like, huh, this

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Speaker 2: feels a little weird, Like maybe we shouldn't be engaging

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Speaker 2: children in romantic conversations. But I guess no, I guess

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Speaker 2: they're they're just moving fast and breaking things like children.

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Speaker 1: Oh side note, it's my favorite thing. Ever. When you

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Speaker 1: know the dust is settling and Reuters is looking at

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Speaker 1: all the documents and the emails, when you see something

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Speaker 1: that you're like, well, that definitely should not have been

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Speaker 1: put in writing. If y'all are going to do this,

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Speaker 1: which you shouldn't, you should have at least been like,

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Speaker 1: this is a conversation we should just have out loud

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Speaker 1: in person, not put in not creating a pay per

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Speaker 1: trail for this conversation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like, don't put it in email, don't put it

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Speaker 2: in slacked. Certainly, don't encode it in your official policy guidance.

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Speaker 1: So the document seen by Reuters, which is like two

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Speaker 1: hundred pages long, provides different examples of acceptable chatbot dialogue

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Speaker 1: during romantic and sensual play with minors. It includes things

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Speaker 1: like quote, I take your hand guiding you to the bed,

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Speaker 1: our bodies intertwined. I cherish every moment, every touch, every kiss.

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Speaker 1: That is an example of something that it is permissible

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Speaker 1: for metas chatbot to say to a child.

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Speaker 2: You know, I could imagine somebody somewhere like a Zuckerberg apology.

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Speaker 2: Just I guess being like, well, you know, kids are

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Speaker 2: always engaging in romantic conversations with each other, like it's

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Speaker 2: you know, what's the harm here? But this is them

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Speaker 2: talking with software built by a corporation. Like it, it

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Speaker 2: feels like there should be pretty strong guardrails against corporations

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Speaker 2: engaging in romantic behavior with children.

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Speaker 1: And even beyond that, I just think the idea that

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Speaker 1: we are all currently ensnared in this dynamic where or

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Speaker 1: being told the Internet needs to be heavily censored and

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Speaker 1: restricted for everyone, even adults, specifically to keep kids safe

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Speaker 1: and to keep kids away from sexual content. Meanwhile, Mark

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Speaker 1: Zuckerberg is like, go ahead and make bots that sexualize

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Speaker 1: the kids, and just I just cannot hold these two

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Speaker 1: things in my head at the same time. But we're

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Speaker 1: simultaneously being told I can't as an adult, I can't

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Speaker 1: access Internet space is meant for other adults. But this

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Speaker 1: is fine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great point. There's really I don't see

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Speaker 2: how it's possible to reconcile these seemingly wildly different approaches

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Speaker 2: to what sort of content is and is not permissible

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Speaker 2: on the events.

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Speaker 1: So just like that, Kendall Jenner chatbot collaboration Reuters found

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Speaker 1: that these unauthorized celebrity bots often insist to users that

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Speaker 1: they are the real actors and real artists, and the

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Speaker 1: bots routinely made sexual advances, often inviting a test user

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Speaker 1: for meetups, and some of the AI generated celebrity content

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Speaker 1: that the bots produced was like pretty spicy. When asked

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Speaker 1: for intimate pictures of themselves, the adult chatbots produced photorealistic

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Speaker 1: images of these celebrities posing in bathtubs or dressed in

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Speaker 1: lingerie with their legs spread. So Reuter spoke to Andy

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Speaker 1: Stone from Meta. He gave some typical non answer that

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Speaker 1: basically is like, yeah, we did it. What do you want?

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Speaker 1: He said, Like others, we permit the generation of images

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Speaker 1: containing public figures, but our policies are intended to prohibit nude, intimate,

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Speaker 1: or sexually suggestive imagery. Which this is what he said

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Speaker 1: when confronted with the reality that that is exactly what's

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Speaker 1: happening on the platform.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like, well, their policies are intended to prohibit it.

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Speaker 2: That's not worth a lot when their software is just

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Speaker 2: going ahead and doing it anyway, And so where's the accountability.

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Speaker 2: It's just there, just isn't any.

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Speaker 1: I found this particularly interesting. Stone did say that celebrity

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Speaker 1: characters were acceptable so long as the company obviously labeled

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Speaker 1: them as parodies. So many of these accounts Reuter's found

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Speaker 1: were labeled as parodies, but many were not. Meta deleted

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Speaker 1: about a dozen of the bots, both parody avatars and

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Speaker 1: unlabeled ones, shortly before their stories publication, and Stone just

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Speaker 1: did not comment on that removal.

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Speaker 2: This is like maybe a little bit of a side conversation,

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Speaker 2: but I feel that as a society, we are really

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Speaker 2: stretching the meaning of the word parody.

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying, Like, in what way is a

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Speaker 1: sexy Taylor Swift bot prod?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 1: What is being parody?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? What is being parodied? It's it's not a parody,

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Speaker 2: It's it's a it's a representation. Uh, But parody implies

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Speaker 2: some kind of like satire or humor or commentary. What

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Speaker 2: is the commentary of, like a sexy Taylor Swift bot

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Speaker 2: in a bathtub?

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Speaker 1: I have the hots for Taylor Swift, that's the commentary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's Uh, I don't think that's parody.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break at our back.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about how Meta made these unauthorized celebrity chatbots,

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Speaker 1: that use the name and likeness of celebrities like Taylor

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Speaker 1: Swift and Selena Gomez. Reuter spoke to Duncan Crabtree Ireland

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Speaker 1: as the national executive director from SAG after, a union

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Speaker 1: that represents film, TV and radio performers, who made a

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Speaker 1: very good point about safety. He said that artists already

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Speaker 1: faced potential safety risks from social media users forming romantic

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Speaker 1: attachments to a digital companion that represents, speaks like, and

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Speaker 1: claims to be a real celebrity. Stalkers already pose a

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Speaker 1: significant security concern for these stars, saying we've seen a

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Speaker 1: history of people who are so obsessive toward talent and

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Speaker 1: of questionable mental state. If a chatbot is using the

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Speaker 1: image of a person in the words of a person,

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Speaker 1: it's readily apparent how this could go wrong, which I

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Speaker 1: completely agree, and as we saw with that Kendall Jenner

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Speaker 1: inspired bot that lured a man to his death in

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Speaker 1: New York. If a bot looks like Taylor Swift is saying, Oh,

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Speaker 1: come visit me in Nashville, and you're talking to somebody

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Speaker 1: who is cognitively or mentally impaired, it's I agree with

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Speaker 1: Crabtree Ireland that that's pretty clearly a recipe for disaster. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we started this conversation talking about how Joe Rogan,

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Speaker 2: who you know, regards to what you think of him,

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Speaker 2: I think most people would agree that he is of

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Speaker 2: more or less sound mind, even he was duped, right,

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Speaker 2: And there's a lot of vulnerable people out there who

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Speaker 2: probably have an even more difficult time telling fantasy from

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Speaker 2: reality than Joe Rogan does. And you know, it is

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Speaker 2: worth while thinking about the risks to those people from

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Speaker 2: these chatbots impersonating celebrities, and the risks to others around them,

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Speaker 2: Like does Facebook have a Jodie Foster chatbot?

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Speaker 1: Wow?

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Speaker 2: What might some would do to impress that chatbot?

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Speaker 1: You know, that's like my favorite. I won't even get

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Speaker 1: into it.

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Speaker 2: I won't even get into I shouldn't have brought it up,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, it's It was interesting hearing this tag. Astra

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Speaker 2: is pursuing legislative remedies that would protect everyone, not just celebrities.

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Speaker 2: That is nice to hear. You know, we haven't covered

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Speaker 2: it on the show yet, but I've been really interested

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Speaker 2: in this new law in Denmark where every individual citizen

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Speaker 2: by law now has a copyright to their identity and

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Speaker 2: their likeness. I think that's a really interesting and creative

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Speaker 2: approach to solving this problem of chatbots stealing people's identities

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Speaker 2: and deep fakes. And I'm so curious how that plays out.

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Speaker 2: And I have to imagine that a lot of these

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Speaker 2: kind of accounts that we're seeing here that Facebook is

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Speaker 2: creating of celebrities that it's calling parody even though they

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Speaker 2: aren't parodies. I have to imagine that that might not

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Speaker 2: be possible if those individuals held the copyright to their likeness.

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Speaker 4: Maybe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a really interesting potential solution to this issue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if it would work here because

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Speaker 2: of the First Amendment, but it's just really I find it.

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Speaker 2: It's like, really interesting and one of the more creative,

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Speaker 2: I don't know approaches that I've encountered. So Facebook is

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Speaker 2: trying to get kids to talk with sex spots, that's cool.

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Speaker 2: What else is happening on the Internet? Is it just

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Speaker 2: a sex of palooza out there?

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Speaker 1: Bridget I'm glad you asked, Mike, because not exactly. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about how Meta's child sensuality bots are happening

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Speaker 1: against the backdrop of all of these different age restriction

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Speaker 1: laws coming for the Internet. Those laws have started with

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Speaker 1: porn and adult content sites. But now the nineteenth reports

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Speaker 1: held those laws that are requiring folks to prove that

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Speaker 1: they're eighteen or older before accessing any kind of sexually

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Speaker 1: explicit content online is threatening the livelihoods of adult content creators.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out that queer and trans are really

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Speaker 1: shouldering an outsized burden here. So here's just where we're

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Speaker 1: at right now to levels at twenty five states have

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Speaker 1: passed laws that require people to upload a picture of

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Speaker 1: their government ID, scan their face, or confirm banking information

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Speaker 1: before viewing sexual content. Real quick, I would never. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I feel over people in these states. But the idea

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Speaker 1: that I'm I'm trying to have some an intimate, private moment,

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about. It's like, oh, let

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Speaker 1: me get my passport out, let me get my routing

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Speaker 1: information to my my my real bank account out. It's just, oh,

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Speaker 1: I would never.

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Speaker 2: When did we get up to twenty five states? I

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Speaker 2: thought it was like a few states. That's half. Twenty

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Speaker 2: five is a half?

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Speaker 1: All right, let me let me, let me, let me

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Speaker 1: give you, let me give you, let me give you

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Speaker 1: the breakdown. Okay, so these are the states that have

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Speaker 1: laws that are passed but not yet in effect. Arizona, Ohio, Missouri,

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Speaker 1: Arizona and Ohio's laws will apparently come into effect in

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Speaker 1: late September. And the states that have laws and effect

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Speaker 1: currently Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska,

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Speaker 1: North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Wyoming.

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Speaker 1: I know about Virginia because I live in DC, which

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Speaker 1: is pretty close to Virginia, and oftentimes I don't know why,

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Speaker 1: but my IP address sometimes there's some sort of issue

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Speaker 1: where sometimes it seems like I'm in Virginia even though

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Speaker 1: I'm in the District of Columbia FYI statehood for DC.

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Speaker 1: So every now and then I will encounter like the

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Speaker 1: cloud flair thing that it's like, oh, you need to

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Speaker 1: do this, you need to do this. And we know

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Speaker 1: that we have seen a rise in the use of

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Speaker 1: VPN usage, which we'll talk about in a moment, So

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Speaker 1: not everybody is being impacted, like not everybody has to

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Speaker 1: actually go through the rigamar role of showing their information

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Speaker 1: to access adult content online because of the rise of

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Speaker 1: VPN usage. So all of this has really taken a

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Speaker 1: toll on queer, trans and indie adult content creators because

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Speaker 1: bigger platforms can absorb the calaw associated with age verifications online,

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Speaker 1: but many of these indie creators or smaller studios really cannot.

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Speaker 1: The nineties reports that fewer people have been viewing and

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Speaker 1: thus paying for their content, and creators and studios also

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Speaker 1: have to pay out of pocket for age checking software

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Speaker 1: and contend with things like potential massive fines for non compliance. Additionally,

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Speaker 1: all of these laws as another added layer of risk

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Speaker 1: for creators lawsuits for non compliance that can be used

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Speaker 1: to leak full names and addresses of sex workers who

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Speaker 1: are already vulnerable to stalkers and anti porn harassment. The

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Speaker 1: nineteen spoke to Lorelei Lee, a sex worker organizer and

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Speaker 1: professor at law at Cornell University, who said, this is

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Speaker 1: going to have an immediate impact on many, many people's

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Speaker 1: ability to survive. And let's be real, this is far

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Speaker 1: from the first challenge that these communities have faced. Indie

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Speaker 1: queer porn studios are already struggling to stay afloat because

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Speaker 1: they cater to kind of a niche audience that has

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Speaker 1: less disposable income to spend. And we know that because

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Speaker 1: of legislation like boss A Sesta, creators have long had

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Speaker 1: to deal with things like websites suppressing their content and

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Speaker 1: payment processors kind of arbitrarily freezing their accounts on suspicion

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Speaker 1: of sex trafficking. Add to that, the recent economic downturn

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Speaker 1: has really forced everybody to cut extra costs that would

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Speaker 1: obviously include things like adult content subscriptions, and now they

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Speaker 1: had added in an extra layer of cost for these

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Speaker 1: creators in the form of age checking websites and massive

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Speaker 1: fines for non compliance. So this community is really feeling

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Speaker 1: the squeeze more than ever.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and not just those costs of doing the AIDS checking,

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Speaker 2: but also now they have liability for properly handling people's

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Speaker 2: government ID images and information. Right Like we saw that

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Speaker 2: that was a big problem for the t app a

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Speaker 2: couple weeks ago that they were doing something similar and

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Speaker 2: they didn't handle that information properly, and I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 2: they're now facing like multiple lawsuit over it. So it's

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Speaker 2: not just the added expense of having to do the

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Speaker 2: age verification, but then also the added expense and liability

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Speaker 2: of properly handling that very sensitive information.

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Speaker 1: Yes, our conversations about the tea app and the Tea

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Speaker 1: on her app really go to show that it matters

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Speaker 1: how this verification information, whether it's a driver's license or

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Speaker 1: a selfie, it really matters how that is protected and

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Speaker 1: whether or not that's protected, and that can't be an afterthought,

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Speaker 1: and that comes at a cost. So I didn't realize this.

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Speaker 1: Studios basically just have to eat the cost of age verification.

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Speaker 1: The nineteen spoke to one independent studio that pays between

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Speaker 1: one and three cents per verification, which might result in

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Speaker 1: monthly charges of several hundred dollars. And there is no

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Speaker 1: guarantee that a site visitor will actually turn into a

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Speaker 1: paying customer. So if I'm just going on to a

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Speaker 1: site that the site has to pay for to verify

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Speaker 1: my age, but there's no gara that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: spend any money at all on that.

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Speaker 2: Site, Oh that's really interesting, And I would guess that

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Speaker 2: a lot of those users are AI web crawlers who

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Speaker 2: are very unlikely to spend money on the site.

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Speaker 1: Exactly and I mean that point really goes to show

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Speaker 1: how poorly thought out some of these laws are, because

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Speaker 1: they are not even necessarily accomplishing the stated goal of

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Speaker 1: keeping kids away from adult content. Everybody wants to keep

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Speaker 1: kids away from adult content, except.

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Speaker 2: For Mark Zuckerberg.

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Speaker 1: Except for Mark Zuckerberg, apparently, but these laws, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: even seem like it's having the intended effect. Research has

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Speaker 1: shown that searches for virtual private networks or VPNs, which

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Speaker 1: allow anyone to spoof their geographic location when accessing the Internet,

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Speaker 1: went up after the first state based age verification law

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Speaker 1: went into effect in Louisiana, as did traffic to the

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Speaker 1: sites that did not implement age verification systems. In other words,

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Speaker 1: these laws are not even necessarily accomplishing goal of preventing

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Speaker 1: miners from accessing porn because people can just use VPNs

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Speaker 1: and people can just go to sketchy websites that are like,

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Speaker 1: we don't traffic in any of that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's how the Internet works. I'm really glad you

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Speaker 2: brought up that research. I think it's so important and

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Speaker 2: valuable here. I feel like so many of the policy

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Speaker 2: debates that we're having in America right now about the

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Speaker 2: Internet and really all sorts of things are just completely

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Speaker 2: detached from reality. And I think that policy debates around

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Speaker 2: morality stuff and adult content is like some of the

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Speaker 2: worst offenders in terms of having no connection to what's

433
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: actually happening in the real world. You know, these studies,

434
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 2: which we'll link to in the show notes, they provide

435
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 2: like actual empirical evidence showing that these as gurification laws

436
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 2: not only don't reduce access, but they are actually causing

437
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: people to engage in more harmful behaviors than they otherwise would.

438
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: It's sending people to sketchier quarters of the Internet where

439
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 2: they're just like, nah, we don't have to follow that law,

440
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 2: either because they're based abroad, or maybe they're just like

441
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 2: a like a fly by Night website that somebody spun

442
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 2: up with pirated content that you know, if regulators ever

443
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 2: come after them, they'll just shut it down and pop

444
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: up somewhere else. But it does seem like one of

445
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 2: the biggest effects of those laws is driving people from

446
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 2: reputable sites attached to you know, indie creators or indie studios,

447
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 2: where they do have an interest in not getting sued

448
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 2: into oblivion, so they're actually trying to follow the law

449
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: driving people from those sites to sketchier ones. And it

450
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 2: doesn't take a lot of imagination. It gets to guess

451
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: that those sketchy sites are less likely to pay creators

452
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 2: for content. If they don't care about the law, then

453
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 2: why would they bother paying creators for their content when

454
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: they could just steal it. It's like super easy to

455
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 2: steal stuff on the Internet.

456
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 1: And I think we have this landscape where big companies

457
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: like porn Hub, they can just afford to do whatever right.

458
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 1: Just this week, Pornhub had to settle with the state

459
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: of Utah for five million dollars over claims that they

460
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: did not do enough to take child sex abuse materials

461
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: seriously on their platforms. And so you have these big

462
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: major players who can afford to do age of verification

463
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: and can just frankly afford to pay out when they

464
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: aren't following the law and aren't doing what they're supposed

465
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: to be doing. Then you have, as you said, these

466
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: sites that are like, we're not doing any of that,

467
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: we operate outside of the law. And then you have

468
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: these small shops and creators who who genuinely do want

469
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: to comply with the law, but the cost of doing

470
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: so is making it hard for them to simply stay

471
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: in business. The nineteen spoke to one indie studio who said,

472
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: we're seeing sales drop, but we're also seeing a lot

473
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: of dear friends and colleagues and other important makers in

474
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: our field decide to close up shop. It feels like

475
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: there is no possible way to proactively comply with the

476
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: requirements that are being asked of us, and that seems

477
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 1: like an intentional move on the part of lawmakers. So

478
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,239
Speaker 1: I absolutely agree with this creator here, and I mean

479
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: you don't have to take my word for it, because

480
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: the architects of Project twenty twenty five have been explicit

481
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: in saying the goal is not to keep kids away

482
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: from porn. We're saying that, but the actual goal is

483
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: to ban all adult content in the United States. Russell Voyd,

484
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: one of the architects of Project twenty twenty five, I'm

485
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: the current director of the Federal Office of Management and Budget,

486
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: was caught on tape calling age verification laws a quote

487
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: back door to banning all adult content, which he clearly

488
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: says is their explicit stated goal.

489
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, not surprising, you know, if you've been paying attention

490
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 2: for the last two hundred years to these morality crusaders

491
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: who want to tell other people what they can and

492
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 2: can't do. Great strategy for them, just yelled for the children.

493
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 2: Save the children. As we've seen time and again, whenever

494
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: somebody is running around with their hair on fire screaming

495
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 2: about saving the children, that should be a big red

496
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 2: flo that they are not saying what they actually need.

497
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: Oh yes, absolutely, that is like your Spidey senses should

498
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: be tingling whenever you hear that. And of course all

499
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: of this is making everything less safe. Lorelei Lee, that

500
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: sex worker and organizer and lawyer at Cornell, said, it

501
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: opens you up to fans, stalkers, people with ill intent

502
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 1: suing you, and by suing you gaining access to your

503
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: legal name, your location where you work. Oftentimes that location

504
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: is your home. Lee said, every time they pass a

505
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: law like this, the further and further we are pushed

506
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: out of the mainstream, and that means not just losing

507
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: access to resources through our work, but losing access to

508
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: resources in terms of familial contact and social connections, even

509
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: the ability to get public services. And so in this

510
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: crusade ostensibly meant to keep kids safe, what they are

511
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: doing is pushing people further and further and further from

512
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: the main stream, potentially into some of these less regulated

513
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: places and creating a real world harmful situation for them

514
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: that really opens them up for all kinds of real

515
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: world harm.

516
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Again, it just feels like a detachment from reality

517
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: where you're trying to achieve this universe where adult content

518
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: does not exist. And I'm sorry, but this is like

519
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. We have the Internet. The porn industry

520
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 2: has led technological development for decades. It's going to continue

521
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 2: to exist. The question is just whether it exists in

522
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 2: an above board way or if it's pushed to CD

523
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 2: sketchy extremes where no one is safe.

524
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: And to your point about how you know, when people

525
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: talk about protecting kids, it really deeply bothers me. How

526
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: crusades that are about protecting women and girls, protecting kids,

527
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: you know, protecting traffic and victims. It is so easily

528
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: used as a way to avoid accountability for what you're

529
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: actually doing right. And a good case of this I

530
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: think we're seeing right now because I don't know if

531
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: you remember this, but when Elon Musk first took over Twitter,

532
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: he made a big song and dance about how he

533
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: was going to make sure that his platform was free

534
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: of child sexual abuse material, right, he was like, I'm not, like,

535
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: we're taking a huge stand on this, And I remember

536
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: specifically he got so many congratulations, like finally somebody is

537
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: taking a stand for these kids. And in case they're

538
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: wondering how actually protecting women and girls is going. Currently,

539
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: a child sex abuse survivor is begging Elon Musk to

540
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: remove images of her being abused from his platform. X.

541
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: Gotta throw a big trigger warning on this one because

542
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: BBC has a horrifying story about a woman that they're

543
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: calling Zora, who was sexually abused by a family member

544
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, and images depicting that abuse are essentially

545
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: being marketed as for sale all over X. The BBC

546
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: found images of Zora while investigating the global trade of

547
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: child sex abuse material, estimated to be work billions of

548
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: dollars by child Light, the Global Child Safety Institute, so

549
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: material featuring Zora was among a cash of thousands of

550
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: similar photos and videos being offered as for sale on X.

551
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: Zora is furious about this. She says every time someone

552
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: sells or shares child abuse material, they directly fuel the

553
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: original horrific abuse. My body is not a commodity. It

554
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: never has been and never will be. She says. Those

555
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: who distribute this material are not passive bystanders, They are

556
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: complicit perpetrators. Honestly, her story is so heartbreaking. Zora said

557
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: that she has tried to overcome her past and not

558
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: let it determine her future, but perpetrators and stalkers still

559
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: find a way to view this filth. Over time, as

560
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: she grew older, stalkers uncovered Zora's actual identity, contacted her

561
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: and threatened her online. She says that to this day,

562
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: she feels bullied over a crime that already robbed her

563
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: of her childhood. So the actual images of this abuse

564
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: are available on the dark Web, but they are openly

565
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: promoted and marketed on X. Posts on X use different

566
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: hashtags that are familiar to pedophiles. The images that appear

567
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: on X are often taken from known child abuse images,

568
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: but they're cropped in such a way that they're not explicit, right,

569
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: And so if you are somebody who is familiar with

570
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: this space, you know like, oh, this is an image

571
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: from this kind of content, but it's cropped in such

572
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: a way that it is not overtly explicit, I think

573
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: is the way to get around whatever kind of policies

574
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: might be triggered on the platform that would take that

575
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: content down.

576
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: Just to recap in at X, they are very concerned

577
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 2: about child sex abuse material, but their software has been

578
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 2: defeated by cropping.

579
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: Correct And when the BBC reached out to X about this,

580
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: they said, X has a zero tolerance policy for child

581
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: sexual exploitation. We continually invest in advanced detection to enable

582
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: us to take swift action against content that accounts that

583
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: violate our rules. But I mean obviously not because BBC

584
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: is saying, hey, every single time that this gets pulled down,

585
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: it's up very quickly thereafter if you're not taking it

586
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: down swiftly. So it is kind of just like with

587
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: the Facebook statement, how they're able to be like, oh,

588
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: we don't have a problem with that on our platform,

589
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: our policies forbid it. It's like, oh, okay, well, then I

590
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: guess Zora is making it up. Yeah.

591
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: There's also a little bit of an irony about how

592
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 2: just completely lawlessly Musk and Zuckerberg operate in their own

593
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 2: business dealings with like zero concern for the law, zero

594
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: concern for like who gets harmed. They just don't care.

595
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: They just do it anyway because they know that they

596
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 2: won't face accountability. And yet they flip that around when

597
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 2: their platform is accused of doing something wrong and they're like, oh, well,

598
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 2: you know the rules say it's not allowed. So you

599
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: know the rules of the are the only thing that

600
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: matters here.

601
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think the reason why Musk started his

602
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: tenure at Twitter with talking tough about how he was

603
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: going to stick up for victims and you know, crack

604
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: down on child sexual abuse material on social media platforms,

605
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: I think it's one of it. It's it's like advocating

606
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: for the unborn right, It's it's it's a it's a

607
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: group of people that, for whatever reason, we have trained

608
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: ourselves not to listen to. The only people that we

609
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: kind of listen to and hear from is people who

610
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: are quote unquote advocating for them or or protecting them.

611
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: So when an actual victim of child sexual abuse comes

612
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: forward and says, hey, this is what happened to me,

613
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: I need you to do X y Z, it's like,

614
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 1: we don't like the way that he is having to

615
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: beg somebody who voluntarily got up and said that making

616
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: cracking down on this kind of material was going to

617
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: be his whole thing really should tell you a lot

618
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: about how much he's actually interested in cracking down on

619
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: abuse material on his platform. I think they really love

620
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 1: the idea of advocating for this group, that speaking for

621
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 1: and protecting automatically makes them the hero and gives them

622
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: this ability to occupy a completely unchallenged, unscrutinized moral high ground.

623
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 1: And for whatever reason, there is this assumption that the

624
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 1: actual victims and survivors are a silenced, unseen group of

625
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: like child victims and trafficking victims or abuse victims who

626
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 1: will never actually speak up and say this is what

627
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: we need. If you want to advocate for us, if

628
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: you want to protect us, please do X y Z.

629
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: So they get all the props of doing something good,

630
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: They get to enjoy being the hero for advocating for

631
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: these people, but not actually having to, I don't know,

632
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 1: listen to them or really do anything to actually advocate

633
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 1: for them. That's why we see people who are interested

634
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: in sort of amassing power and not getting too much

635
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: scrutiny on what they're actually doing, not really getting a

636
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: lot of accountability, taking up the mantle of oh, I'm

637
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: protecting kids, because when you say you're protecting kids or

638
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 1: protecting victims, I think it's used as achine to evade

639
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: any kind of actual accountability about what it is that

640
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: you're doing, which according to BBC, it sounds like Elon

641
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,280
Speaker 1: Musk is doing fuck all to protect these victims.

642
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:13,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly not protecting Zorah. You know, I really feel

643
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 2: like increasingly he just his brain is like aduled and bad, uh,

644
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 2: because it like one of the things that he is

645
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 2: doing on his platform is making it absolutely a nightmare

646
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: for trans people to even exist. And I do think

647
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 2: he probably would say that, like he he said things

648
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 2: that make it seem like he thinks the existence of

649
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: trans people is harming kids, uh, and like that's what

650
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 2: he's focusing on, which is nonsense to the exclusion of

651
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 2: this like actual child sex abuse victim who is saying,

652
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 2: like this thing exists on your platform and is harming me,

653
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 2: please take it down, And it sounds like it's just

654
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 2: been creating.

655
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 1: Yeah. When BBC told Zora that her photos were being

656
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 1: traded using x she had this message for Elon Musk,

657
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: our abuse is being shared, traded and sold on the

658
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: app that you own motherfucker, motherfucker. I added that she didn't.

659
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: Say that, empressis added.

660
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 1: If you would ask without hesitation to protect your own children,

661
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: I beg you to do the same for the rest

662
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,439
Speaker 1: of us. The time to act is now. And as

663
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: you said, this is a tangible thing that Elon Musk

664
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: has control over can do to protect kids. Ranting in

665
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: the middle of the night about trans people is not

666
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: actually protecting kids. Here we have somebody who is a

667
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: survivor of childhood sexual assault, whose assault is being marketed

668
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 1: on your platform, saying please take this down. And yeah,

669
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: all she's getting back in response is a spokesperson saying

670
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: we take swift action against against that kind of stuff

671
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: on our platform, which again clearly not now.

672
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 2: I think the answer is in her quote there he

673
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 2: would not act without hesitation to protect his own children.

674
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: He has openly disowned his own children. So get fucked everybody.

675
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 2: That's the Musk way.

676
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: Although Musk's daughter Vivid Wilson did have a stunning photo

677
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 1: shoot in the cut recently, which I don't know. She's

678
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: better off with Adam More.

679
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 4: After a quick break, let's get right.

680
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: Back into it.

681
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 2: You want a little update on Luigi MANNGIONI, Yeah, what's

682
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 2: going on with America's favorite alleged assassin.

683
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: So y'all probably know that Luigi was accused of killing

684
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: United Healthcare's CEO last year, but you might be surprised

685
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: to learn that he is also currently modeling shirts over

686
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,760
Speaker 1: at Sheen kind of. I assume this is an AI

687
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: generated image of his likeness that was used on Shean's

688
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 1: website to model a floral, short sleeved, buttoned down shirt.

689
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: It actually sold out, so I guess this was a factor.

690
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw people posting about how mad they were

691
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 2: that they missed out. It was a nice shirt.

692
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: So Shean did remove the listing, but someone saved it

693
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: on the Internet archive before san was able to take

694
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: it down. Shean told Newsweek the image in question was

695
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: provided by a third party vendor and was removed immediately

696
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: upon discovery. We have stringed standards for all listings in

697
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: our platform. We are conducting a thorough investigation, strengthening our

698
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: monitoring processes and will take appropriate action against the vendor

699
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: in line with our policies.

700
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: Our policies forbid it.

701
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: I know that's the theme of this show is spokespeople

702
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: being like our policies forbid this, and it's like, well,

703
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: we're talking about how it happened, so I don't know

704
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 1: if the policies are working.

705
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like the third story that's been like that.

706
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: No, I honestly, Mike, this could be a whole episode.

707
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: So when I in my former life, when I was

708
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: working at an advocacy organization where I had to talk

709
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: to social media platforms about how their policies were failing,

710
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 1: I could. I could write a book about corporate, especially

711
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 1: tech company, but just corporate say nothing, bullshit it the

712
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: way that they will. I mean the fact that all

713
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: of these spokespeople have said some version of our policies

714
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 1: forbid this, or that you know, we take this very seriously.

715
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: That means nothing when you I am poor people, when

716
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: you are reading an article or an investigation that includes

717
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:42,320
Speaker 1: a spokesperson highlight, how much of it actually says anything

718
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: meaningful and you will never take the cap off your

719
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: highlight or I am telling you.

720
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. Back when I worked for a tech company that

721
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 2: handled data that was protected by a hippa like people's

722
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 2: health information, Uh, you know, we had to treat that

723
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,399
Speaker 2: data very carefully, and there were a bunch of policies

724
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: that we had to follow, and a bunch of tradings

725
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: we had to do all the time, Like every year,

726
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 2: you'd have to redo these trainings and certify that you

727
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 2: did the training so that you understood the policy and

728
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,720
Speaker 2: the protocols, and oh my god, it was so boring.

729
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 2: But it was also stressed to us over and over

730
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: that like the existence of the written policy meant nothing right.

731
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: Like if we screwed up and accidentally published people's private

732
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: health information to the Internet and it got exposed, the

733
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 2: fact that we had a policy that said that wasn't

734
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: supposed to happen would mean nothing right. There would still

735
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: be accountability to the organization and potentially accountability to the

736
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 2: individual who allowed the breach to happen. And it's interesting

737
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 2: to read through, you know, story after a story where

738
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 2: spokesperson is saying like, oh, our policy is forbidden, our

739
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 2: policies don't allow this, because there's just no whiff of

740
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 2: accountability any where.

741
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 1: To the point where in what way is it meaningful

742
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: to name check a policy if that policy has not

743
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: been followed. Honestly, if I was working for these companies,

744
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: I would say, if you're being contacted about a story,

745
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: in which the policy was not followed and like a

746
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: tangible thing happened. Don't name check the policy that wasn't followed.

747
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: That that like, that doesn't say that's meaningless, say something different.

748
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: I respect that she and at least said we're investigating.

749
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: At least that is like, Okay, we understand that this

750
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: wasn't great and we're looking into it. That's at least something.

751
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, an acknowledgment that the written policy is in some

752
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 2: way disconnected from what is actually happening in practice.

753
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 1: So Luigi modeling that shirt is not the first time

754
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: that this kind of thing has happened. She uses a

755
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: lot of AI generated models. Four or four reports that

756
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 1: the Manfinity brand.

757
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 2: That's a brand, Manfinity.

758
00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: Manfinity. They are the brand that sor ry.

759
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 2: To Manfinity and beyond.

760
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 1: So Manfinity is exactly what you're thinking.

761
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 4: It is a it is a.

762
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 2: Brand can possibly be true.

763
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: So the Manfinity brand is this like workout gear company

764
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: that sells on Shean that generates AI generated kind of

765
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: buff guys wearing tank tops and workout gear. Fast fashion

766
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: retailers like Shean are not the only shop in town

767
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 1: using AI models. They are becoming much more mainstream. Y'all

768
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: might recall that there was a bit of an outcry

769
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: earlier this summer in July when Vogue ran advertisements for

770
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: guests featuring AI generated women selling the brand summer collection.

771
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: So I kind of like, shean using Luigi. That's hilarious,

772
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 1: And I think there was a whole conversation about how

773
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: handsome he was, which like, I don't know, like I

774
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: won't get into the effics of that, but it doesn't

775
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: surprise me that that happened, and I think that's really funny.

776
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: But in general, the use of AI models in fashion

777
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: really troubles me, just as a person who remembers being

778
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: a young girl at the height of top model. You know,

779
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: they would have a they would have a woman who

780
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: was a size four, and Tyra would be like, well

781
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: as a plus size fattie, Like young me was like, oh,

782
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: she's that.

783
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 4: Oh.

784
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: Like the way that fashion and modeling just really gets

785
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: in your head as a young person is already bad enough,

786
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: but if you can use AI to depict people who

787
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: aren't even real, I can only imagine what that will

788
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: do to beauty standards, how that will shape the next

789
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: generation of folks coming up behind us.

790
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is a great example. I think of how

791
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 2: in a lot of cases, AI is not inventing new problems,

792
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 2: but it's taking existing problems and supercharging them and making

793
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: them so much more harmful. Now with models that are

794
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: just completely AI generated, free from the constraints of biological plausibility,

795
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 2: it's it's ridiculous.

796
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: This is gonna sound so silly, but I remember a

797
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 1: couple of years ago when legislation was passed saying that

798
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: mascerra commercials and advertisements could not use false lashes. So

799
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: for the longest time, you could just pop some false

800
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,399
Speaker 1: lashes out of a box onto a model and then

801
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: lie to people and say this was the this she

802
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: got these lashes from our mascara, And it seemed like

803
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 1: such a small thing. But I remember thinking, obviously, you

804
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:41,919
Speaker 1: shouldn't be able to do that if your whole thing

805
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: is trying to get consumers to buy your mascare because

806
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: of what it can do to your lashes. I just

807
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: remember thinking, obviously they should not be able to do that.

808
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: But I just think there's no end to how technology

809
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: is going to be used to lie to us and

810
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: really promote things that aren't real, you know, the fact

811
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: that they've been doing it so long already. I think

812
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: that AI is just going to be used to make these,

813
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: as you said, make these existing problems so much worse,

814
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: worse than our wildest imaginations can probably even conceptualize.

815
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 2: I also wonder how effective these advertisements are because, like,

816
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 2: if we think about mascara and eyelashes, would you be

817
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 2: interested in buying a mescara brand based on an ad

818
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 2: that is that, you know, is AI generated?

819
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 4: No?

820
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: And that's the thing I don't understand, you know, I

821
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: think we're getting so far from what the point of

822
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 1: some of these advertisements is, right, And at a certain point,

823
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: I got to see how the genes look on a human,

824
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, I gotta see how the

825
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: mascara looks on lashes. We're sort of so beyond what

826
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: these advertisements and my mind should be doing. It's like, oh,

827
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 1: we're selling a lifestyle, we're selling an idea, having a feeling,

828
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: But really, how do the gene spit? Right? Do they

829
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 1: work on a human body?

830
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, that's the question, Like does it matter whether

831
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 2: you're communicating how the genes fit or is it all

832
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 2: just marketing? You know, selling a feeling, selling a bye,

833
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 2: like like cologne commercials and perfume commercials, which are the

834
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 2: most unhinged, like conceptual fever dream pieces, because like, how

835
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 2: are you gonna reproduce ascent on a TV?

836
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:41,280
Speaker 1: You're not obviously people running down a beach with flowing

837
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: garments in black and white, Mike.

838
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, with like pegas eyes swirling around a mountain and

839
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 2: like you.

840
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: Know this is this is such a tangent Gucci. I

841
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: feel like they're like fragrance commercials are the biggest offender

842
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: of that, where it truly will be pegasus is running

843
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 1: in the wind and hair being blown. Maybe they'll put

844
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: some words in there like eternity forever.

845
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Right, they're like early adopters of this where their

846
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 2: ads are already like CGI animation.

847
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, maybe I'm Pollyanna and none of this matters,

848
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: and none of this has mattered for a very long time,

849
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:19,800
Speaker 1: and I just need.

850
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 2: To catch up maybe or maybe that works for frequances,

851
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 2: but actually is not what people want for products like

852
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 2: genes and makeup that actually need to like work on

853
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 2: their own body. I guess we'll see.

854
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:51,240
Speaker 4: I guess we'll see more. After a quick break, let's.

855
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 1: Get right back into it okay, I have a little

856
00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 1: bit of bad news good news on the Aborne front.

857
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: So I want to start with some bad news. Texas

858
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: lawmakers voted to enact House Bill seven, ushering in sweeping

859
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: new restrictions on abortion pills mailed to the state. This

860
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: bill is now awaiting Governor Greg Abbott's signature as of today, Friday,

861
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: September fifth. So this at the center of this is

862
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: what is called tele abortion, which is where you have

863
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: a consultation remotely, sometimes over zoom, and then abortion pills

864
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 1: are mailed to your home. Tele abortion is great. It

865
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 1: is often much easier to do a pill based abortion

866
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 1: at home. It's also very safe. Serious complications occur in

867
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: less than point three percent of people who use it.

868
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: But that piece tele abortion is what is at the

869
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: center of all of this in Texas. So one scary

870
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: piece of this new bill is that it gives private

871
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: citizens the right to sue health providers for mailing, prescribing,

872
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 1: or providing abortion medication to patients in Texas. Providers sued

873
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,720
Speaker 1: under this bill risk penalties of at least one hundred

874
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Further, this bill will also authorize lawsuits against

875
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: pharmaceutical manufacturers if they make medications that are then used

876
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 1: by Texans for abortion. This obviously could make abortion pills

877
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: harder to access in general, not just in Texas, if

878
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: any pharmaceutical manufacturer can be sued if those pills are

879
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: mailed to Texas. This is from the nineteenth Texas is

880
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 1: the largest state to have almost completely outlawed abortion, but

881
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: thousands of residents each month have continued to terminate their

882
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: pregnancies by ordering medication from healthcare providers who practice in

883
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: states where the procedure remains legal. Those medical professionals work

884
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: under the protection of shield laws statutes that hold that

885
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: their home states will not cooperate with out of state prosecution.

886
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,399
Speaker 1: One estimate suggest that by the end of twenty twenty four,

887
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: more than three thousand, four hundred Texans received telehealth abortions

888
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 1: each month. And it's just a good reminder. Tele abortion

889
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: is not just about convenience. It's about access, it's about safety,

890
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: it's about dignity. For people in rural communities especially, it

891
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,959
Speaker 1: can mean the difference between getting essential life saving care

892
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: and going without. And efforts to restrict abortion gerally, but

893
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: especially tele abortion do not make anybody safer. They just

894
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: put everybody more at risk.

895
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 4: Now.

896
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: I don't want to just leave y'all with bad news

897
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 1: without a little bit of a good news chaser, which

898
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 1: is that Governor J. B. Pritzker signed into law HB

899
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: thirty seven oh nine, making Illinois the fourth state in

900
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 1: the first in the Midwest to require public colleges and

901
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: university ensure that students have convenient access to medication abortion

902
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: and contraceptives. In doing so, Illinois joins the expanding group

903
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: of states for re acquiring that student health centers offer

904
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 1: abortion pills. California was the first in twenty nineteen, followed

905
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 1: by Massachusetts in twenty twenty two and New York in

906
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,479
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. This new law, signed on August twenty second,

907
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 1: requires that public colleges and universities provide access to abortion

908
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 1: pills through student health centers, telehealth, or licensed external providers,

909
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: and also requires that campus pharmacies dispensed prescribed contraceptives and

910
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 1: medication abortion starting in the twenty twenty five twenty twenty

911
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: six school year. And this move is really thanks to

912
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 1: the diligent organizing of students. I feel like I'm kind

913
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: of patting myself on the back a little bit here

914
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,359
Speaker 1: like twenty years later, because I got my start in

915
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: reproductive rights campus organizing when I was a student at

916
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 1: East Carolina University. Let me tell you, in North Carolina

917
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: circa two thousand and three, two thousand and four, that

918
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: was some lonely work.

919
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 2: What was your campaign? What were you trying to achieve?

920
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:28,959
Speaker 1: On paper? It was to protect abortion access in the state,

921
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: especially for students, like in my heart, just make the

922
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 1: campus a more feminist, radical place. You know, like a

923
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,720
Speaker 1: lot of campus organizing, it was not always the most

924
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 1: laser focused work. I guess I'll just put it that

925
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: way if I'm going to speak diplomatically, but abortion access,

926
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 1: access to contraceptives on campus was a big part of

927
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: what we were pushing for. And so yeah, this this

928
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: move is really because of student organizers on campus. Missed

929
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,320
Speaker 1: reports that in twenty twenty four, students at University Illinois

930
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: or Banish Champaign past a referendum urging student health centers

931
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: to make medication abortion available for students. Nearly three quarters

932
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,800
Speaker 1: of the six three hundred and fifty four student voters

933
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: supported this idea. Student leaders Emma Darbrough and Grace Hosey

934
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,879
Speaker 1: testified before the legislative committees to push HB thirty seven

935
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: H nine forward, advocating for accessible and affordable reproductive health

936
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: care for college students. Then they teamed up with Representative

937
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: Barbara Hernandez and State Senator Selena Villanueva, who then sponsored

938
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: this bill in the legislature. And I guess I wanted

939
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: to include that because it's just a good reminder that

940
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:39,280
Speaker 1: as bleak as things are, organizing still works. Your voice

941
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 1: still matters, especially if you're a young person student. Organizing

942
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 1: is still powerful, even if it can feel like you're

943
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 1: shouting into avoid sometime. And truly, this is how we win,

944
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:49,760
Speaker 1: This is how we keep each other safe.

945
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, organizing is the way to do it. I appreciate

946
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 2: the good news chaser because things do seem pretty bleak

947
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:04,439
Speaker 2: at times. Time flake right now, but it is really

948
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: nice to be reminded that students are organizing and positive

949
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 2: things are apt.

950
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 1: Amen. Okay, So lately I have been really feeling like

951
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: we're back to witness the pop of the AI bubble,

952
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: and one kind of small indicator, but an indicator, nonetheless,

953
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 1: is how much people are just not interested or excited

954
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:33,359
Speaker 1: about AI in their consumer products. According to a new

955
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: c NEET survey, just eleven percent of US smartphone owners

956
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 1: chose to upgrade their devices because of AI features, a

957
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: seven percent drop from a similar survey last year. Further,

958
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,359
Speaker 1: three in ten people don't find mobile AI helpful at

959
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:53,879
Speaker 1: all and don't want more AI features added to devices. Preach, Wow,

960
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: where do you fall on this? Because I have a

961
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,720
Speaker 1: specific orientation when it comes to new devices in general,

962
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 1: But you seem like somebody who would be into the newest,

963
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 1: the newest and best.

964
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 2: I feel like, uh, I don't need to have the

965
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 2: newest and best. But there's some there have been some

966
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 2: pretty impressive advances in like cell phone camera technology in

967
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 2: recent years. Like that's particularly what I'm interested in. The

968
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 2: cameras just keep getting better and better and like noticeably better.

969
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 2: You know, there's so many products where there are like

970
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 2: the newest model has all of you know, it's better

971
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 2: in all these ways, and it's just imperceptible how it's better.

972
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 4: Uh.

973
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 2: You know, people are saying that about the AI model

974
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 2: that all the big companies are putting out, like you know,

975
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 2: the new chatch EPT model. People are like, uh, it's

976
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 2: not really that much better. Uh, But cameras and cell

977
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 2: phones like you take a side by side photo taken

978
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 2: on a cell phone that is like cutting edge today

979
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,319
Speaker 2: versus cell phone that was cutting edge three years ago,

980
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 2: and it is immediately clear that like one of these

981
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 2: cameras is superior to the other.

982
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,319
Speaker 1: That actually speaks to what people actually do say that

983
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 1: they care about in their phones. They don't want AI features,

984
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: they don't want AI bells and whistles. What they care

985
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 1: about is pretty simple, core obvious things. Thirty percent of

986
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 1: people want a nice camera as their top priority of

987
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 1: deciding when to buy a new phone, Sixty two percent

988
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,919
Speaker 1: said price, fifty four percent said longer battery life, thirty

989
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 1: nine percent said storage. So it's these like basic obvious,

990
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 1: common sense things that people want. But what's funny is

991
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,240
Speaker 1: how much of a mismatch this is between what people

992
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,919
Speaker 1: say they want and what companies are giving them, because

993
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 1: companies are still like, oh no, no, you want AI,

994
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:52,399
Speaker 1: you want AI tons of AI features. I think these

995
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 1: survey results really highlight a kind of mismatch of like

996
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 1: what people actually want and what these companies are giving them.

997
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 1: And I think it's general apprehension toward AI, which I

998
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:03,879
Speaker 1: think we're seeing more and.

999
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 2: More yes, And I don't even think it's entirely apprehension based.

1000
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,280
Speaker 2: It's just like I don't want this. Like I can't

1001
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 2: tell you how many different pieces of software I use

1002
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 2: that are constantly nagging me to use some sort of

1003
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 2: AI feature that I'm just not interested in using. Adobe

1004
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 2: is one of the worst offenders. Microsoft is constantly anytime

1005
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 2: I try to do anything, it's like, oh, do you

1006
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 2: want copilot to do something here? And I don't. And

1007
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 2: most of the time when I try, it like doesn't work,

1008
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, that was a waste of a minute.

1009
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 2: They're just I hope that bubble is bursting, not the

1010
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 2: like the entire AI everything bubble where like no one

1011
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 2: will ever use AI again, but this dranged era we're

1012
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 2: in where tech companies are just trying to force it

1013
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 2: into every quarter of every product, in every aspect of

1014
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 2: our lives, where it just has no business being and

1015
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 2: is not useful.

1016
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think apprehension is not the right word. Perhaps

1017
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 1: it's fatigue and I'm so sick of signing on to

1018
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 1: something and it's like, oh, do you want to use

1019
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 1: our AI tool for this? What if it took longer

1020
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 1: and also didn't work that thing that you're doing. Wouldn't

1021
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: it be good if it like didn't work?

1022
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? Do you want to ask us a question? And

1023
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 2: then our chatbot will take you to a help page

1024
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 2: that doesn't actually do what you want, or if.

1025
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: You're a minor, it will take you by the hand

1026
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: light some candles, lead you to the bed, give you

1027
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 1: gentle kisses all over your body. But they're like, I'm

1028
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: just trying to create this graphic for work.

1029
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 2: Come on, guys, yeah, I'm just trying to create this

1030
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 2: graphic for work. How do they end up in a

1031
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 2: romantic relationship with a bot?

1032
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 1: I mean this is this is People are often surprised

1033
00:58:57,440 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 1: to find this out about me because I make a

1034
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: tech podcast, So people assume that I have the latest

1035
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 1: newest gadgets, and then I love sassed with gadgets. Mike.

1036
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 1: Tell them what kind of phone I have.

1037
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:14,479
Speaker 2: I don't know because all the branding has etched off

1038
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 2: from the sands of time. But I do know that

1039
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 2: it has a crank.

1040
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 1: I rock an iPhone eleven that I got six years ago.

1041
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 1: I have no plans of upgrading. It works fine, it

1042
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 1: holds a charge fine. I just you know. My car

1043
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: is from two thousand and eight. I'm just not somebody why.

1044
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 1: It's also, this stuff is expensive. I patently reject the

1045
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 1: idea that you need to get a new one every

1046
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 1: couple of years, especially if the old one is working

1047
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 1: just fine. Y'all can cry my iPhone eleven from my

1048
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: cold dead hands. Don't need it. You're not gonna get

1049
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 1: me out of bell or whistle. The idea of a

1050
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 1: new camera on my phone does sound nice, because currently

1051
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 1: my camera is essentially inoperable, and as somebody who is

1052
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: trying to make videos and content for the Internet, I've

1053
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: had to invest in some work arounds. I'll just put

1054
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 1: it that way. So maybe maybe I could use a

1055
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: new phone. But yeah, I'm not. I'm not one that

1056
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 1: that feels the need to upbraid all the time.

1057
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 2: Wild trajectory of that last statement. You know, like, I

1058
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 2: don't need a new phone. My curt one doesn't really work,

1059
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 2: and camera is the main thing that people look for

1060
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 2: in phones, and my camera doesn't work. But I don't

1061
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 2: need a new stock.

1062
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 1: It's not the only thirty percent of respondents said a

1063
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 1: camera was their top priority. Sixty two percent said price.

1064
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 1: And I'm a pinch penny, so I'm I'm in that

1065
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 1: sixty two percent, make one mess one hundred dollars Apple

1066
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 1: and then we'll talk.

1067
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 2: All right, Yeah, well, just just keep rocking it. Your

1068
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 2: phone is very small. I will give it that. They've

1069
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 2: done so much bigger in the past decade.

1070
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: And they make pockets on women's pants so small. My

1071
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 1: pockets are but so large. My phone can only be

1072
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: but so large.

1073
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 2: Words to live by.

1074
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 1: Well, Mike, thank you so much for running through these

1075
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,919
Speaker 1: stories with me. Where can the listeners keep in touch?

1076
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 2: Listeners can and leave us comments on Spotify, they can

1077
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 2: email us at hello at tangote dot com, and they

1078
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:10,919
Speaker 2: can follow us on social bridget Marie in DC, on

1079
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 2: Instagram and on TikTok. And there are no girls on

1080
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:19,480
Speaker 2: the internet. On YouTube, we've been posting videos lately, trying

1081
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 2: to make YouTube happen. It's a new thing for us,

1082
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 2: but I feel like it's kind of fun. It's interesting

1083
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 2: to be working in video, and I would love to

1084
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 2: hear from listeners how what they think of it.

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01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 1: That was a very diplomatic way of putting it. I

1086
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 1: hate I'm trying so hard, and honestly, people should write

1087
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 1: in because I'm curious how people feel about video. Apparently

1088
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 1: a lot of people are getting their podcast content from YouTube.

1089
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is YouTube suits telling me

1090
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 1: very convenient information for them and I and I'm just

1091
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 1: believing it. But at any event we're trying on YouTube,

1092
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 1: I find it to be kind of an undignified medium.

1093
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 1: In order in order to get traction, you have to

1094
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 1: make thumbnails where your face is doing things that you

1095
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 1: don't like your face to be doing.

1096
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, our listeners don't want that. Our our listeners are

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01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 2: busy people. Our listeners are doers. They want to listen

1098
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 2: to a podcast while they're doing something else. They want

1099
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 2: audio only. They're not trying to sit down and like

1100
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 2: watch an hour long video of the same podcast they

1101
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 2: could have just listened to while they were like doing

1102
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 2: the dishes, or doing the laundry or driving somewhere. Our

1103
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 2: listeners are our people. But yet it does seem I

1104
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,919
Speaker 2: have heard the message that there are other people out

1105
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 2: there hungry for the message of Tangote who only listen

1106
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 2: slash Patch on YouTube.

1107
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 1: And well, I know, I know we're trying to wrap,

1108
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 1: but you really have triggered something in me. So I'm

1109
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 1: going to keep going for a moment. If you'l if

1110
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 1: you'll allow me, which is that I so I love

1111
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: podcast content. I'm an audio girl. I'm came from a

1112
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 1: background of in a house where public radio or MPR

1113
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 1: was always on. And my thing is this as we

1114
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: are being told that video is the thing, it has

1115
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: echoes of the great pivot to video that was a

1116
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 1: big scam. And also I'm finding more and more audio

1117
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: creators making podcast content that I think is now prioritizing

1118
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 1: the video experience. And so a podcast that you love

1119
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 1: and you've been listening to it in your earbuds for decades,

1120
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 1: now that podcast is prioritizing the video consumer experience. And

1121
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 1: they'll be referencing things that you can't They then don't describe,

1122
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 1: and you're like like, we'll show things on video and

1123
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 1: you're like, I don't even know what they're talking about.

1124
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: I can promise you this podcast will Pangodi will never

1125
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 1: do that. We are audio first, audio first, forever. Video

1126
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 1: will be supplementary. We're trying to get there for video people,

1127
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:59,840
Speaker 1: but AO audio rules in this in this community.

1128
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. The the videos that we're making are a

1129
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 2: different thing from the podcast. You know, we talked about it.

1130
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 2: We were like, oh, should we just record the podcast

1131
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:13,439
Speaker 2: and then like throw that up on YouTube. No, that's

1132
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 2: not what we're gonna do. That's not what we want

1133
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 2: to do. That's not what we're gonna do. So we're

1134
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 2: still trying to figure out what are the videos that

1135
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 2: we put up there. Hopefully they can be you know,

1136
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 2: a good compliment to what we're doing with the audio.

1137
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 2: But listeners, thank you for sticking with us on audio.

1138
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 2: Do know that audio is like under siege. I don't know,

1139
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 2: maybe that's too strong.

1140
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 1: But like no audio is under attacked.

1141
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:43,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, so keep listening, tell your friends, share the shows

1142
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:46,480
Speaker 2: that you like. Hopefully we're in that set, but even

1143
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 2: if we're not, you know, protect the audio audio forever.

1144
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. We will see you on

1145
01:04:52,840 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 1: the Internet. Got a story about it, interesting thing in tech,

1146
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:03,120
Speaker 1: or just want to say hi? You can read us

1147
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 1: at Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find

1148
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are

1149
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget

1150
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 1: tod It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative. Jonathan

1151
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 1: Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer

1152
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 1: and sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm

1153
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:23,439
Speaker 1: your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow,

1154
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:24,440
Speaker 1: rate and review.

1155
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 4: Us on Apple Podcasts.

1156
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

1157
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:30,920
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts