1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch us 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, and the Bloomberg Business App. We're 4 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 1: listening on demand wherever you get your podcast. The twenty 5 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: one year old Air National Guardsmen arrested in connection with 6 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: the leak of the highly classified documents from the Pentagon 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: Student court today after being arrested yesterday, making the metropolis 8 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: of Dighton, Massachusetts, a household name. Not to mention the 9 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: man himself, Jack Deschera, who today was formally charged in 10 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: federal court. Bloomberg reporter and Mastu was at the Mocleigue 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: Courthouse in Boston and joins us now and what's he 12 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,959 Speaker 1: charged with? Well, Joe, quite quite a shocking twenty four 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,919 Speaker 1: hours here in Massachusetts. The prosecution read the charges unauthorized 14 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,639 Speaker 1: retention and transmission of national defense information an unauthorized removal 15 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: and retention of classified documents or material. Now each holds 16 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: a maximum prison time of five to ten years. And 17 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: we're waiting to find out if he's going to be 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: charged per document because he's uploaded hundreds of documents. Wow, 19 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: I'm sure it was a media frenzy. What was it 20 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: like outside there in Yeah, it was sure was a 21 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: media frenzy, Joe. There were probably seventy five reporters from 22 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: outlets all over the world. I was sitting next to 23 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: man from the Guardian and we all showed up very 24 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: early because it wasn't clear when Jack Tishara would appear, 25 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: and it was ten am when he finally did so. 26 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: As in the courtroom, he showed up in a beige jumpsuit, 27 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: not showing much emotion. He's a small built man, he's 28 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: twenty one years old, so we really looked like a boy, 29 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: no kidding. Came from Dighton and worked on Cape cod right. 30 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: He was part of the hundred and second Intelligence Unit. 31 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: Used to be a fighter wing based there at Otis 32 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: Air Force Bass. Not a left to that base, and 33 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: it was actually kind of surprised to hear that that's 34 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: where all of this stuff went down. That's exactly right, Joe. 35 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: I mean, when we first heard that it was a 36 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: Massachusetts person leaking Pentagon documents, my first thought was it 37 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: must be a hacker at MIT, but we found out 38 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: it was a man in his parents' basement in a 39 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: small town in southern Massachusetts. It was really shocking, and 40 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: that's right. He had access to documents on the joint 41 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: based Cape cod which is a full scale joint use base. 42 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: It's home to five military commands training for missions at 43 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: home and overseas, and he appeared to have full security clearance, 44 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: and from what we understand, he was transcribing by hand 45 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: and then dictating what he was seeing because he wasn't 46 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: allowed to have electronics in the rooms where he had 47 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: access to documents. At some point they started photographs of 48 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,119 Speaker 1: those documents, did he not? That's right, that's that's what 49 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: That's what the Washington Post has just reported now that didn't. 50 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: They didn't get into that much detail at today's appearance. 51 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: They didn't actually even have any Please, he just was 52 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: read his rights to remain silent and asked if he 53 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: understood what was going on. He said he did. He 54 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: looked very quiet, He was very soft spoken. He looked 55 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: around the room for his parents who were there. He 56 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: had a real public defender representing him, and he apparently, 57 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: according to the judge, does qualify financially for a public defender. 58 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: And it's not clear whether he'll have a different attorney 59 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: going forward. Fascinating when's he back in court and do 60 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: we know he's back on Wednesday? Okay, yeah, and he 61 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: said very little. So they read the charges and asked 62 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: if he understood, and he was then again handcuffed again. 63 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: His father quietly said love you, Jack, and he quietly 64 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: said love you too, and then he was led out 65 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,679 Speaker 1: of the courtroom. Wow, were you in an overflow room? 66 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: What did they were? Kind of accommodation did they have 67 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: for a press to watch this? They did have an 68 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: overflow room, but I was in the courtroom itself, and yeah, no, 69 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: I always get there early. Joe. Of course you're an moss. 70 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: Are you going to be assigned to this? Are you 71 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: following this from here? I probably will be. I mean, 72 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: I asked an editor, an editor, we want to have 73 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: you back whenever we get something on this. Anne. This 74 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: is great and I really thanks very much. Joe. Yeah. 75 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: Joining us from our beautiful Boston bureau and mass to 76 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News Order overlooking the Boston Common to the Golden 77 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: Dome with us here on Bloomberg Sound On to get 78 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: things started, and we had the voice of James Jeffrey, 79 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: the former Ambassador to Iraq and Turkey. Special Envoid of 80 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: the Global Coalition to defeat ISIS and now Chair of 81 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: the Middle East Program at the Wilson Center. Mister ambassador, 82 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: it's great to have you with us here. Everyone's asking 83 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: the same questions, beginning with how a twenty one year 84 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: old has access to this type of information. I don't 85 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: know if you have an answer to that. I do 86 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: from fifty years in the US government. There are ten 87 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: thousands of twenty one year olders are people roughly of 88 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: that age in the military and in the US intelligence 89 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: and diplomatic community who have top secret clearances and thus 90 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: access to a broad, broad variety of intelligence information. The 91 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: culture is to spread it as widely as possible to 92 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: ensure that the right information gets to lead as at 93 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: the right time. It works pretty well in that regard, 94 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: as you can see, it is very hard to keep 95 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: it from slipping out of US government control. Got you. 96 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: We may need to reconnect with you, just to warn you, Ambassador. 97 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: We'll see if your phone line hooks up here or 98 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: improves here. I just want to make sure we understand 99 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: what you're saying. There's there's a there's a debate going 100 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: on on social media. As I saw last night and 101 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: woke up to this Morning, where the likes of Tucker 102 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: Carlston and Marjorie Taylor Green seem to be kind of 103 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: siding with this young man Jack to Sara to suggest 104 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: that he is some sort of whistleblower on the war 105 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: in Ukraine. Whistleblower versus leaker or two very different things, 106 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: aren't they? Yes and no, they are very closely related. 107 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: But a whistleblower goes to intent what your motives are. 108 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: A leaker is a physical act. It is the release 109 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: of unauthorized information to unauthorized people, and it is punishable 110 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: by law. In the case of Jack Exterior, we're talking 111 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: about the espionage Jack, So it's a very serious thing 112 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 1: and the motives for it are not of primary importance. Frankly, 113 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: and I do not think that in this case he 114 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: was a whistleblower. There's no indication so far that he 115 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: was anything other than a naive kid who thought this 116 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: stuff would just stay in the circle of friends he hadn't. 117 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: I guess that would also be underscored by the fact 118 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: that there was no particular direction with a lot of 119 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: these documents. He was just kind of exposing whatever he 120 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: could as opposed to, specifically the war in Ukraine. Or 121 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: one particular issue exactly. I mean, Fox News is not 122 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: always the best. Are all congresswomen on the best sources 123 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: of information. He was trying to impress his friends, and 124 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: he just grabbed what was out there. But as we 125 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: can see, there was a lot of very damaging, potentially 126 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: damaging information that is out there that somebody could grab 127 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: and he had no real specific need for any of 128 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: the stuff. That's what's so creative. Yes, yeah, so it 129 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: makes us question the motive or the charges, what they 130 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: should be, ambassador, and what should be the punishment. The 131 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: punishment should be quite severe. It will take into consideration 132 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: what his motives were in so far as we can 133 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: see at this point, it was not to harm or 134 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: damage the United States, or even if you're a whistleblower, 135 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: to try to make your own foreign policy. It was 136 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: rather an internal thing. His intent was not for this 137 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: to get into the public sector, so that will be 138 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: a consideration. But nonetheless, these are very serious charges, and 139 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: the reason is we have to contain and deter others 140 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: from doing this for whatever reason, because this is extremely 141 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: damaging to our whole global position and frankly, the collective 142 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: security that keeps all of us and most everybody else 143 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: in the world safe, including many Cranians right now and 144 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 1: people on Taiwan. Why not charging with treason? I think 145 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: that would be well. First of all, treason, as you know, 146 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,679 Speaker 1: is the only crime that the Constitution actually talks about. 147 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: We didn't charge the Confederate leadership with treason. It's a 148 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: very very big step, and it would have to involve intent, motive, 149 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: and I just so far I don't see that in 150 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: this kid's case. Okay, understood. You mentioned relationships and what 151 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: this means for us on a global level. Here. You know, 152 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of sort of smirking about the 153 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 1: idea of you know, anyone ever thought we weren't spying 154 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: on our allies. Maybe they should grow up a little bit. 155 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: But maybe you feel differently, Ambassador. How much clean up 156 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: does the Biden administration have to do outside of the 157 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: US A great deal? First of all, this is one 158 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: of now a pattern of US with Wiki leaks and 159 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: with the other cases over the past fifteen years that 160 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: indicate that we, unique among Western governments, don't seem to 161 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: be able to keep control of our secrets. There was 162 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: one famous case in Britain involving going into a rack, 163 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: but that was clearly a whistleblower. Is clearly a huge 164 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: national issue. These things we're talking about in the United 165 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: States are just sloppy controls and people taking advantage of them, 166 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: but it is doing real damage. Our allies expect us 167 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: to spy on them, but they expect us not to 168 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: embarrass them by letting it get public. That's a great 169 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: way of putting it. Then, so we're we are grown 170 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: up enough to know that this is happening, But you 171 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: can't excuse the sloppy work here. He exactly, And again 172 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: they don't do it. They wonder why we do it, 173 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 1: and I sometimes wonder myself. But again, I'm one who's 174 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: benefited from the free flow of information at the policy level. 175 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: Got it, I see, Ambassador, You're from saugist mass which 176 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: is just that says a lot to our listeners. First 177 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: of all, in the Boston area. It gives you enormous 178 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: credibility in this conversation, Ambassador, What does you ever think 179 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 1: a kid from Dighton would pull something like this? Um? 180 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: You know, the kids I grew up with were capable 181 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: of everything from becoming world class lawyers in Manhattan to 182 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: becoming criminals. It's just like three other smaller middle class 183 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: working community. It was a greaty place to grow up 184 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: in and a great place to come from. It was 185 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,959 Speaker 1: the salt of the earth. How about that, here's the 186 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: Saugust Mass. When you when you consider what's in these documents, 187 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: at least to the extent that we know, Ambassador, we're 188 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: going to learn a lot more, I suspect from from 189 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: reports and leaks on the leaks in the next couple 190 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: of days. Here how much damage was potentially done to 191 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: our agents in the field, to our intelligence sources who 192 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: might have been compromised. Almost none, now you can, and 193 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 1: the Russians are good at this. Look at the documents 194 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: and stop speculating on how we got certain information. But 195 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: the one thing the US, the intelligence community, I should say, 196 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: is very good at is it's smart enough not to 197 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: share how it gets the information with the rest of 198 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: us in the policy community, because it knows we can't 199 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: be trusted. So therefore agent reports specific intercepts of electronic 200 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: transmissions and stuff that is concealed. The information that is 201 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: collected is then put into reports and distributed. But the 202 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: intelligence agencies are very good and have really really been 203 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: caught out in revealing sources. Thank god. Yeah. We spoke 204 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: yesterday on balance of power here on Bloomberg with Mark Asper, 205 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: the former Secretary of Defense, who made the point repeatedly 206 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: that we need to start tightening the circle that too 207 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: many people have access to this information. Do you agree? 208 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: I do. There are also specific things you can do, 209 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: and I've been in situations where we do do them. 210 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: For example, you number all documents. You have to have 211 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: a specific need to know, unless you're somebody like my 212 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: friend Mark Esper, he has need to know everything as 213 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: Defense secretary, right, twenty one year old Enlisted people don't, 214 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: and then you limit their access to copying machines, you 215 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: search them going out of buildings. There are other things 216 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: you can do, very very sensitive, but the CIA does 217 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: it as you polygraph people there. It is, Ambassador, great 218 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: to have you with us here. I appreciate it. Regards 219 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: to Saugust James Jeffrey, the former Ambassador to Iraq and Turkey, 220 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: special envoid of the Global Coalition to Defeat ISIS. He's 221 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: a man of experience now chair of the Middle East 222 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: Program at the Wilson Center. And we assemble our panel 223 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: here on Friday. Rick Davis and Jeanie Schanzano with us 224 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: our signature panel on this day of the court date. 225 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: What do you make of the ambassador's take on this, Rick, 226 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: We've got a twenty one year old and a lot 227 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: of trouble. Are the charges appropriate for the crime? Uh? Sure? 228 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: I think that the charge has been weighed by DJ 229 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: coordinated with the Department of Defense, and certainly punitive enough 230 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: to send a message to anybody else who is thinking of, 231 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: you know, being sloppy with classified documents. We certainly have 232 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: a lot of press around them these days, whether you're 233 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: a president or a twenty one year old, And so 234 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: I think part of it is just managing some of 235 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: the public reaction to this so that it becomes more 236 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: and more difficult for people who want to who want to, 237 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: you know, be sloppy with these documents. And in this case, 238 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: it sounds like sloppiness was at the heart of the 239 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: equation here. Genie, is this the beginning of the embarrassment 240 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: here for the Biden administration or is the worst out there? 241 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: You know, let's hope it is the beginning and the 242 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: end of the embarrassment for the United States. Quite frankly, 243 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: and I think the ambassador just laid out beautifully. You 244 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: know what a black mark this can be. You know, 245 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: amongst the questions you were taught talking about another series 246 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: of questions. I think that has got to be addressed, 247 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: and we hope it will be, is how are these 248 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: documents not found for so long? And what sort of 249 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: responsibility do these social media outlets like discord? What do 250 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 1: they have to be responsible for? You can't post pornography 251 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: supposedly on these things? How could you post national security documents? 252 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: So I think we have a long way to go 253 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: in terms of answering a lot of these big questions. 254 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: We're just getting started with Rick and Jeanie. As we 255 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: see the story on the terminal US humiliated over the 256 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: twenty one year old's alleged tie to secrets leak. The 257 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: Biden administration's got some explaining to do, and we'll talk 258 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: more about it with our panel next. The Friday edition 259 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: of sound On is often running. I'm glad you joined us. 260 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg. You're listening to the Bloomberg sound On podcast. 261 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: Catch the program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, 262 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: the tune in apt, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg 263 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa 264 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa playing 265 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg eleven thirty. So the cleanup begins. The question is 266 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: why it took so long for the Biden administration to 267 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: find these documents to be aware of them. As Genie 268 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: Schanzano was just asking, we reassemble our panel with Genie 269 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: and Rick Davis, Bloomberg Politics contributors on the Friday edition 270 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: of Sound on the Biden Administration. As I read on 271 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: our piece is going to have a hard time explaining 272 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: how the biggest US intelligence leak in a decade may 273 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: have been committed by a twenty one year old airman. 274 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: And Genie, to your point, it took a long time 275 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: for anyone to know that it was out there, and 276 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: it's begging the question, I guess number one, what else 277 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: is out there? We had the former ambassador to Morocco 278 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: this week suggesting that sites like Discord are supermarkets for 279 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: classified US information. But also, what's going to change here, Genie? 280 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: We need new protocol to have feelers out apparently on 281 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: on even gaming chat sites to see what the heck 282 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: has been exposed already. That's right, and this opens a 283 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: whole can of worms. So we're already hearing people in 284 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: and out of the government saying maybe we need to 285 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: step up surveillance of social media, gaming sites, everything else 286 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: or libertarians that you know, you know, makes them quake 287 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: in their boots. They don't want more government surveillance of 288 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: these things. But of course, from the government's perspective, we 289 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: need to be secure. But I would, you know, re 290 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: emphasize what you just said about why this took so 291 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: long for them to uncover this, and to your previous interview, 292 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: if this is a supermarket for classified documents, do these 293 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: social media sites bear any responsibility to monitor what is 294 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: being put up there? Which gets us back to something 295 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: we've all talked about for a long time. Do we 296 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: need regulation or better regulation or some regulation of these 297 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: social media sites? So you know, it's absolutely true. We 298 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: have to figure out how he got these out of there, 299 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: and the government needs to take responsibility for the one 300 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: million people apparently who have access to these documents, but 301 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: also the sites on where they are being disseminated. Those 302 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: organizations may need to be held responsible as well, or 303 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: at least we need to think about regulation on the 304 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: back end of this. So there's an awful lot attached 305 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: to this story. Crazy story. I think of a twenty 306 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: one year old kid who in described looking like a 307 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: little boy, who was able to do all of this, 308 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: and we still don't know the extent of the damage. 309 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: The Ambassador Rick even brought up section two thirty. Is 310 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: that something that should be looked at as part of 311 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: this conversation. Should sites like Discord be dissuaded by by 312 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: allowing this to happen for fear of punishment? Well, it's 313 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: very hard to imagine that the pile of arguments against 314 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 1: two thirty that publishing illegal information would not already be covered, 315 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: you would think. But but yeah, look, I mean, it's 316 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: just all part of a massive debate that's going on 317 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: in Washington and every capital around the world is to 318 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: how you regulate you know, these kinds of publications, if 319 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: you want to call them that, sites where people create 320 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,719 Speaker 1: their own content, and in this case, uh, you know, 321 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: you find it hard to believe that anybody could actually 322 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: know what was or what wasn't uh you know, classified information, 323 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: especially because early on he was retyping all this stuff. 324 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: It was liked like his original content, and which you 325 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,479 Speaker 1: wonder why he would do that other than trying to 326 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: avoid being caught. But like, the bottom line is, I 327 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: think that the bigger question is why does it take 328 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: so long to find this stuff? And I think we're 329 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: at the very beginning stages of another debate around how 330 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: you manage open source intelligence. I mean, we've seen in 331 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: full display during the Ukraine invasion, of the Russian invasion 332 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: of Ukraine, the use of open source intelligence that tells 333 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: US troop movements and massing equipment in certain locations, and 334 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: it's actually, you know, been very beneficial to the Ukrainian defense. 335 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: The same technology that it's used to collect pictures and 336 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: information and that kind of thing in the open source 337 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: you know, things that are already in the public domain 338 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: could have picked these documents up in the course. So 339 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: very powerful algorithms that will search out information that might 340 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: be linked to classified information. You know, we'll have to 341 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: come out of the intelligence community at some point. There's 342 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: an interesting, maybe scary you guys can weigh in on 343 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 1: that part of a domestic political wrinkle to all of this. 344 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: As Marjorie Taylor Green tweets Jake tischera is white, male, 345 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: Christian and anti war. That makes him an enemy to 346 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: the Biden regime, and he told the truth. She writes 347 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: about troops being on the ground in Ukraine, and a 348 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 1: lot more. Ask yourself, who is the real enemy? Tucker Carlson, 349 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: last evening, What's happening to this leaker now? Is what 350 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: happens to anyone who contradicts the national security state in 351 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: their obedient servants in the media. You go to prison. 352 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: Is this how this is going to fall down here, Jeanie. 353 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: There will be some on the right who try to 354 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: make a hero whistleblower out of this young man. Yes, 355 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: And this sort of bizarre defense of Jack Tashira because 356 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: he is Christian, white male. He also has videos out there. 357 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: He is anti Semitic, he is racist, and a lot 358 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: more will probably come out in that regard. So you 359 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,719 Speaker 1: hear Marjorie Taylor Green, Tucker Carlson, and you know, and 360 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: I've also heard my friends on the right say there 361 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: was a liberal defense of somebody like Edward Snowden at 362 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: the end the day. So I think the ambassador was 363 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 1: right when he talked about the distinction between whistle blowing 364 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: and leaking. Regardless of his motives, this was a leak. 365 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: So these two charges by my estimation do stand. But 366 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: you know, there was other things about Marjorie Taylor Green's 367 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: ridiculous tweets yesterday, because she talked about the fact that, 368 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: you know, he's a whistleblower because he revealed the presence 369 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: of troops in Ukraine. Of course, there are American troops, 370 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: and we have an empathy in Ukraine. We are giving 371 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: millions of dollars, billions of dollars, and the Republicans are 372 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: asking us to track that. How would we track that 373 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: without a troop? So, I mean, the whole thing is 374 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: just bizarre. But I think we are in for this division, 375 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: and I don't think it's going to serve people on 376 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: the right to make this defense of this leak or 377 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: whether you call him a whistleblower, a leaker, or anything else. 378 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: He leaked this information. He's going to have to pay 379 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: the price if he's found guilty of doing so. Rick 380 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: is this going to be the refrain then among lawmakers 381 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: and others in the political sphere who oppose funding the 382 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: war in Ukraine. Well, just when you thought Marjorie Taylor 383 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: Green was starting to become mainstream, she reminds you just 384 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: how crazy she truly is. Look, I mean We can't 385 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: lose sight of the fact that you swear an oath 386 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: of office when you become a part of the military 387 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: to uphold the laws in the Constitution. This is a 388 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: direct violation of the law. He's a criminal. He is 389 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: not a patriot. He is someone who, just like anybody 390 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: else who would violate the law, is going to be 391 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: process acuted. And the idea that she wants to make 392 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: him a poster her child for the deep state is 393 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: you know, her fight against the deep state is ridiculous. Um. 394 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: The security of our country, as the ambassador said earlier, 395 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: and the security of most Western nations, because our country 396 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: is so dominant in the security space, is governed by 397 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: people like this who take their oath and and and 398 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: and live by that oath, and so nothing Marjorie Taylor 399 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: Greening says, that diminishes, that is at all going to 400 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 1: change the fact that he's a criminal now. And if 401 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: he's convicted and he'll serve time in prison for violating 402 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: his oath of office, he's got an echo chamber or 403 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: she's got an echo chamber on Fox already. Though in 404 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: this case, uh, Genie, this this argument is going to 405 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: take on a life of its own at some point here. Yeah, 406 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: it will, and it probably will because of course he 407 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: is out there saying things that are racist, and he 408 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: tyson medic and sexist, and that seems to play right 409 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: into that playbook. And you know, it is ridiculous. Everybody 410 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: should go or saved themselves and not go and read 411 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: what she had to say. Rick is absolutely right, it 412 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: is insanity. And I don't know if you feel this 413 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: way as well, but you know you have to be 414 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: twenty five in this country to rent a car. Maybe 415 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: the national intelligence agencies could decide that twenty year old 416 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: year old to have access to these information should be limited, 417 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 1: or we should agree to let them rent cars at 418 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: the very least. I mean, this idea from so many 419 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: perspectives seems so wrong. And I had a twenty year old, 420 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: so I feel confident speaking about this. Yeah, I'm not 421 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: sure we want younger people to be renting cars after 422 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: all here, But Rick that it does bring us back 423 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: to Mark Esper's comment last night, is it time to 424 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: start closing the circle here? Fewer eyes on these documents? Absolutely. 425 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: I know the Defense Department, through the Deputy Secretary Cathics, 426 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: is looking at a review of how they classify documents 427 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: and who they go to. But it's it's absolutely outrageous 428 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: that the two biggest leaks we've had an intelligence out 429 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: of the Defense Department, you know, came from Edward Snowden 430 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: when he was twenty nine years from this kid when 431 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 1: he was twenty one. Are we not watching the kids 432 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: in the house, you know? I mean, it's just absolutely 433 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: amazing to me that there aren't enough constraints given to 434 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: people who would have access to this and and monitoring 435 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: when these documents are printed out or downloaded in any server, nevertheless, 436 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: one you know, operated by someone who has just turned 437 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: twenty one. Yeah, I'll tell you takeaway here to me, 438 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 1: sounds like you better watch out for the it guy. 439 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us 440 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: live week days at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, 441 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: the Irhart Radio app, and the Bloomberg Business App. We're 442 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: listening on demand wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Joe 443 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: Matthew in Washington, and Kaylee Lines has joined us as 444 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: always for hour two of Bloomberg Sound on Happy Friday. 445 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: I don't know how we made indeed, but of course 446 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: this Friday we knew was bank day, right, This is, 447 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: of course the beginning of earning season, and after everything 448 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: that we have gone through over the last month, it 449 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: seems to mean more than ever JP City, Wells Fargo. 450 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 1: It's good to be the big guys. I guess is 451 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: the moral of the story here? Huh Yeah. Evidently even 452 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: in the aftermath of a bank crisis, or perhaps because 453 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: of a bank crisis, they saw a little bit of 454 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,640 Speaker 1: a benefit here. Pretty good earnings for all three of these. 455 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: What's interesting is it's not necessarily translating into some good 456 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: Friday feeling. What's up with that for the broader market? 457 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: I don't know. We should ask someone, Joe. We should indeed, 458 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: as we bring in Creedy and Shinali. This is a 459 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: round table I've been looking forward to because everybody has 460 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: a certain area of expertise. So I should just be 461 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 1: quiet for the next ten minutes. Pretty goop to Bloomberg 462 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: Markets correspondishing Ali Bostic, Bloomberg Wall Street Reporter, and of 463 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: course Kaylee lines here, man, we have the best of 464 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: the best, and we're going to get to the bottom 465 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: of what's going on here. Did you suggest by the 466 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 1: way that Jamie Diamond maybe got up on the wrong 467 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: side of the bed possibly. I mean, the conference call 468 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: was interesting, basically telling people that they need to look 469 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: back at the statement the letter he had already put out. 470 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: They could find the answers there. They were answering their 471 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: own questions. Didn't seem like he was in two jolly 472 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: a moods line, creaty when people just did go back 473 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: and read my letter. What did we learned in the 474 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: conference call today, Creaty? Beyond the numbers? Yeah, well we 475 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: learned a lot, right, I mean, Jamie Diamond, I think 476 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: for me the big takeaway here, and I'm gonna let 477 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: Shinali kind of do the brunt of this, but I 478 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: think from a macro perspective, from a benchmark perspective, I 479 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: think the big takeaway was his view on rates. That 480 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: was my biggest move because I've come on the show 481 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 1: over and over again all week long. It said, hey, 482 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: take a look at the two year that has not 483 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: crossed four percent, and then hey, today the retail sales 484 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: came in and it crossed four We're not four h 485 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: nine and we're high much higher earlier seventeen basis point 486 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: move intra day, just on the front end of the curve. 487 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: That is bond volatility we have not seen for a 488 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: couple of weeks, and then you have Jamie Diamond talking 489 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: about potentially the front end of the curve at six 490 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: percent or even a ten year at five percent. We 491 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: are very far away from that. And for me, the 492 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: concern there is if you're talking about higher rates for 493 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: no longer and not terminal rates. I'm talking about interest 494 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 1: rates that you are pricing your mortgages off of, pricing 495 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: your car loans off of, and that our equities are 496 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: actively being priced off of. Is the market really ready 497 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: for one hundred and fifty basis points of change in 498 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: the ten year and that's me was the highlight it. Well, Crety, 499 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: you just mentioned their car loans and really just loans 500 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: of any kind is something we have been talking about 501 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: extensively over the last several weeks because of concern around 502 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: whether or not there was going to be a major 503 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: pullback in lending on the part of banks. And Jamie 504 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: Diamond on that call earlier today actually did get a 505 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: question around a possible credit crunch. Didn't seem like he 506 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: really liked that question. Take a listen to any time 507 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: I wouldn't use for you. I obviously to give a 508 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: little bit of tightening, and most of that will be 509 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: around certain real estate things. You've heard it from. You know, 510 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: real estate investors are ready. So you know, I just 511 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 1: looked as a kind of thumb on the scale. It 512 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: just makes the fast conditions of a little bit tighter. 513 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: There increases the odds of a recession. He wouldn't do 514 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: it if he was you, Joe right or Shinali, I 515 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: mean Shanali. Jamie Diamond says it's not happening. Are the 516 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: other banks singing that tune as well? There's not a 517 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: material tightening of standards, at least at this point. We 518 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 1: have to remember that for JP Morgan in particular, you're 519 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: looking at a firm with a huge credit card book, 520 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 1: similar to City Group, and when you're looking at what 521 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 1: loans are really rising, what's contributing to that income, it's 522 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: credit cards. It's not really mortgages anymore. Like there are 523 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: a lot of concerns about the mortgage market. We saw 524 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: firms like Walls Fargo having to cut back and JP 525 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: Morgan having to cut back on headcount in those areas 526 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: because of the pressure on that market and tied to 527 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: the rise in interest rates, and so you know you 528 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 1: were talking a little earlier about retail sales. Listen, if 529 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: you look at what's happening, it's not only that people 530 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: are still borrowing, they're also sending money on their cards. 531 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: So it's not kind of clear across the table that 532 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: this kind of rise and interest rates and this potential 533 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: let's say not tightening of lending standards would apply to 534 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: the larger, broader regional banking system that we're more worried about. 535 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: That we'll hear from from the next two weeks. JP 536 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: Morgan is a very special profile here when we look 537 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: at their exposure to what kinds of loans they have 538 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: out and typically the borrower is much safer. So when 539 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: we back off this whole thing, Shinali is the narrative 540 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: that's out there today, correct that the bigger banks actually 541 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: benefited at the expense of the smaller ones through higher 542 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: interest rates and through the banking crisis. Yeah, well, you know, 543 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: JP Morgan, one thing you could say was a direct 544 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: beneficiary of what had happened the last couple of months 545 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: their deposit base. They joined more deposits. I mean, they 546 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: had a jump after a few quarters there of a decline. 547 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: But they're telling you that that deposit base came in 548 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: is not necessarily sticky. City Group says they had a 549 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: lot of institutions that came in with them, and that 550 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: is more sticky than you know, the retail investor, the 551 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: founder that might have moved their money to JP Morgan 552 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: in an interim. You know, people want multiple banking counterparties, 553 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: and frankly, I think kind of my favorite quote that 554 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: I saw today was not in the banking system at all. 555 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: It was from black Rock. It was from Larry Fink 556 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: saying that money is moving to ETFs and money markets 557 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: because you're not getting significant yield at a bank. Black 558 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: Rocks assets, as I read on the terminal, swelled to 559 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: over nine trillion dollars as depositors sought cover following the 560 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: collapse of several US banks, pouring money into their cash 561 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: management funds. It's exactly what Shoali's talking about here, Kayley, 562 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: and it's a name that is frequently left off the 563 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: JP City Wells Fargo list. Yeah, I mean, maybe in 564 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: somewhat of a league of its own, but we have 565 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: to consider just the sheer number of assets through which 566 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: are managed by black Rock. As we're talking about assets 567 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: different asset pricing where people are putting their money into 568 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: creedy bank stocks, big bank stocks. Maybe maybe not the regionals. 569 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: I mean, is the worst the pain over for these guys, um, 570 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: yes and no. But before I get to that, I 571 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: want to quickly make a comment on the money markets 572 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: there because if let's take that a step further, even 573 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: if you're seeing money go into these money market funds, 574 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: which makes sense, of course, and it is a very 575 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: natural reaction by the way, when you're combining banking turmoil 576 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: with recessionary calls which have really kind of gotten pulled 577 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: up timeline wise. Also keep in mind those money market 578 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: funds have exposure and are being used in the repot 579 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: facilities for the Federal Reserve as well. So it kind 580 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: of there's a full circle here of how the Federal 581 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: Reserve is suddenly exposed to a massive amount of funny 582 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,239 Speaker 1: that money, money money. At the end of the day, 583 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: it's been a long day, man. But but point is, 584 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: there's so much and I think one of the kind 585 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: of warnings that again Jamie Diamond and his kind of 586 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: counterparts on the Jap and Morgan conference call had talked 587 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: about was that this might not be the end of 588 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: the moves in deposits. Just because you're seeing all the 589 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: deposits come in right now does not mean we're going 590 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: to end the year the same way. Not to Kaylee 591 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: to ask to answer your question on the stock market. 592 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: Of course, today you are going to see the larger 593 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: banks trade off of these massive deposit flows, the wave 594 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: we've seen regional banks trade off the updates on their 595 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: deposit flows. That's the no brainer. It might not stay though, 596 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, again, if you're 597 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: worried about some sort of recession, financials isn't where you 598 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: put your money. And if you're trading positively on the 599 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: larger banks because of deposit flows, and the bigger banks 600 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: are telling you that they're not going to stay there, 601 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: then why would you keep your money there? And on 602 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: top of that, guys, you know you have this kind 603 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: of months long trend where you see the investment banks 604 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: doing a lot better than the consumer banks when you 605 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: look at how they're trading in the stock market, and 606 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: then the regional banks doing even worse. And if you 607 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: look at the numbers, yes, the classic investment banking numbers 608 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: are lower, they're less deals or less IPOs. All of 609 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: the above, but traders are making out like bandits yea. 610 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: And so you know, you have JP Morgan and City 611 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: Group in particular that said fixed income trading was well 612 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: above estimates. It's below where it was last year, but 613 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: they're still making real money and that number helps City 614 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: Group turn a surprise profit. Actually, yeah, it was. It 615 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: reaslizes it sticks one of the best fixed income trading 616 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: halls they've seen in a decade. I guess that's just 617 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: a question of whether or not City or any of 618 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: these banks can keep that up. You know, it's it's 619 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: interesting because the markets are still volatile, and what they've 620 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: shown you is these trading businesses are so big and 621 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: broad that they're able to make money in one place, 622 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: for example, when they make less money in another. And 623 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: by the way, JP Morgan gave you that, you know, 624 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: that beat in their fixed income trading while also broadly 625 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: taking on more risk at their trading desk. Their value 626 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: at risk had gone down now, you know. Jamie Diamond, 627 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: speaking of his annual letter, he wore about this idea 628 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: that banks in America are going to look different than 629 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: they used to look. You think about what had happened 630 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: over the last ten years, in the mortgage market, banks 631 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: really stepping back in a big way. But you know, 632 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: when you think about it, there's a very weak securitization 633 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: market in some ways when you think about a lot 634 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: of these lending asset classes, and can you expect these 635 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: assets to start being security tized at a greater rate 636 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,359 Speaker 1: to trade those securities at a greater rate. Yeah, So 637 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: there are a lot of kind of secular changes in 638 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: banking that support the idea that trading can still make 639 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: more money, particularly when let's remember that globally we have 640 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: one less bank. Yeah, and virus. By the way, if 641 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: I can just hop in, oh, that Shanali just mentioned 642 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,760 Speaker 1: is one of the kind of reasons or a bearcase 643 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: for the equity market here, because if you were still 644 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 1: trading that bond volatility, which we have been for about 645 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: two months now, Yes, the traders make out like bandits. 646 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: Let Shanali said, but take a look at what happens 647 00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: on the loan front, because then all of a sudden, 648 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: the margin that a lot of these banks are going 649 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: to be making that gets way more expensive and they 650 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: have to kind of walk a really fine line between 651 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: charging higher rates to make up for the higher rates. 652 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: But then they also have to make sure they're making 653 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: it up in volume as well. Joe, I think you 654 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: and I should have just taken early summer Friday. Let 655 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: these two go tell. I love it when these conversations 656 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 1: take on a life for their own. Pretty What does 657 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: this tell us about what with the smaller and regional 658 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: banks are going to say this season? Well, I think 659 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: one of the things you kind of have to watch for. 660 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: I mean, the no brainers here are deposit flows, right 661 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: and bankruptcy and kind of how much dependence they have 662 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 1: on the FDIC's kind of back lending program. Those are 663 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: the obvious ones. But for me, what I really want 664 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 1: to know is how much of the buybacks are they 665 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: going to start talking about. We talked to Herman Chan 666 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: about this over on Bloomberg Intelligence, because if you start 667 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: to look at the price to book ratios here for 668 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: a lot of these regional banks, they are far below one. 669 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: They are very very cheap, and the reason nobody wants 670 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: to touch them is because they're just seen as too 671 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: risky to touch. But if you are a regional bank 672 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: that is doing fairly well, or even a mid sized 673 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,240 Speaker 1: bank Charles Shwap andc. Etc. And your stock is tanking, 674 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: why not buy back the stock? And that's what I 675 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: wonder if there's going to be an incentive there that 676 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: we hear in the next few weeks to say, hey, look, 677 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: we're okay, and we're going to show you we're okay 678 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: by buying our stock back. It's funny they tried to 679 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,839 Speaker 1: tell you they're okay by not buying back stock because 680 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: they're trying to preserve capital. But then you don't really 681 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: give the investor of something to chew on if you're 682 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: saying that we cannot give you greater capital of a turn. Yeah. Well, 683 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: just on the subject of capital and capital requirements, specifically 684 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: liquidity requirements as well. It also kind of brings up 685 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: the point Shinali, of how the regulatory overhang is still 686 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: very much there. Glad you asked, yeah, well, what are 687 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: we hearing about that? Because it feels like that was 688 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 1: the conversation and then it just kind of faded into 689 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: the background. Favorite commentary that I haven't gotten to talk 690 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: about all day yet because nobody's asked then. But it 691 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: is important and it is part of the national conversation. 692 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: Here is the idea of the assessment fees for the 693 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: big banks as they paid them to the FDIC going up, 694 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 1: and it's unclear how much they'll really go up, but 695 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: it's very much baked into JP Morgan's kind of expense 696 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: base here, the idea that expenses are going up. Now, 697 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: remember JP Morgan was more profitable this quarter than anyone 698 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: would have expected, so they could put the cost right. 699 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: But that is one thing that we can expect that 700 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 1: will have a direct financial result to the big banks 701 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: as we think about this question of deposit insurance and 702 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: boosting the availability of deposit insurance across the banks and 703 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: maybe one day even raising the two hundred and fifty 704 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: thousand dollars limit. Lastly, I would also say it's not 705 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 1: just capital requirements and rules. There's a lot of questions 706 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: and I think we have to wait for this to 707 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: shake out, that this is going to be a push 708 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,880 Speaker 1: pull against the knee jerk reaction to create more rules 709 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: and stricter capital requirements. And the bigger issue that I 710 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: know that you look at a lot too, which is supervision, 711 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: because in early May we'll kind of see how the 712 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: FED has kind of assisted itself here and investigated itself 713 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: on how it dealt with some of these issues here 714 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: in the banking system, and you know there's gonna be 715 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: an eye on why the existing rules did not play 716 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 1: out as they should have in all cases. Yeah, I mean, 717 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: it strikes me that Jamie Diamond on the conference call today, 718 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: Joe was basically saying he wants everyone to take a 719 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: deep breath, look at what happened and the breadth and 720 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 1: depth of the regulations that are already in place, that 721 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be a revamp of the whole system, 722 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: just a recalibration, going back to my prediction a couple 723 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 1: of weeks ago that nothing will change from here. They 724 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 1: finish each other's sentence. They're so good, Pretty Gupta Incanali BOSSI, 725 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: thank you both so much, true experts in their field, 726 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: and what a treat to have Pretty Inconali with us 727 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 1: here on Bloomberg sound On. You're listening to the Bloomberg 728 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 1: Sound On podcast. Catch the program live weekdays at one 729 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,720 Speaker 1: Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the tune in alf, Bloomberg dot Com, 730 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live 731 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just 732 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,919 Speaker 1: Say Alexa, playing Bloomberg eleven thirty and the headline says 733 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 1: it all. Kaylee de Santis signs six week abortion band 734 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: in Florida. This is really remarkable because Florida already had 735 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: a fifteen week band that's actually tied up in court 736 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: right now. But as ronad de Santis prepares what appears 737 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: to be a national campaign for president, this is not 738 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: obviously in line with the sort of popular consensus nationally, 739 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: and after what we saw on Wisconsin, what we saw 740 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: in the mid terms, there are a lot of questions 741 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: about the strategy here. I'll mention alongside the doj is 742 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: getting involved in the abortion pill debate, asking the Supreme 743 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: Court now to make my pristone fully available, so we 744 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: will likely be on our way to a major Supreme 745 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: Court ruling at some point on this. It's just hard 746 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 1: to see how all of these headlines come together. Yeah, well, 747 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: I mean, what they do display is the very incredible 748 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 1: amount of friction and tension around the abortion issue in America, 749 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: and as you rightly allude to, Joe, clearly one that 750 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: is of high priority to voters. We have seen that 751 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: on display in elections of all sorts over the course 752 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: of the last several months, and for Ron de Santis 753 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: in particular raises the question of maybe this helps him 754 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: when he is seeking the Republican nomination in the primaries 755 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: as he tries to differentiate himself between conservative candidates. But 756 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 1: then you get to the general election, hard to pivot 757 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: off of that right, and that gets a little more 758 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 1: complicated for him. I would think planting your flag here, Yes, 759 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 1: we know that this is polling data from the Public 760 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: Religion Research Institute seventy two percent. The percentage of those 761 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: who oppose laws that make it illegal to use or 762 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:51,760 Speaker 1: receive through the male FDA approved drugs for a medical 763 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:56,360 Speaker 1: abortion seventy two percent. They're good luck finding an issue 764 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,399 Speaker 1: that brings a number that high in this country at 765 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,799 Speaker 1: this point. Huh Yeah. Absolutely, And it's one conversation, Joe, 766 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: that I think we're going to have continually, certainly in 767 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:06,839 Speaker 1: the run up to twenty twenty four, but also as 768 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,799 Speaker 1: we wait for all of these legal battles to play 769 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 1: out and fall. That's why I wanted to talk to 770 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: Carol Sanger, Professor of Law Columbia with us here on 771 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: the latest. Carol, it's great to have you back on 772 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. Thanks for the time here. I guess we 773 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: can pick through these one at a time. But the 774 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: DJ move is compelling to me. Do you see this 775 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: as something that the DJ acts on imminently, You mean 776 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 1: that they will challenge it in court and try to 777 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: get this the Supreme Court. Yeah, for a ruling on methopristone. Specifically, yes, 778 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 1: they have to because because what the Texas District Court 779 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 1: judge and then the Fifth Circuit Court is sort of approved. 780 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,879 Speaker 1: It is too vital to the whole case of whether 781 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: abortion is going to be about whether or not we're 782 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: going to follow the Supreme Court's decision in Dabs, which 783 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: was the case that was decided early last summer that 784 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: overturned Drove Wade. And the interesting thing is one of 785 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,360 Speaker 1: the things that Justice Alito said right in the beginning 786 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: of the decision, it's what we're doing here is we're 787 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:18,800 Speaker 1: supporting democracy. We're saying that the Supreme Court shouldn't decide 788 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 1: whether abortion is going to be illegal or not, but 789 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: it should go back to every state. And so what 790 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: the what the what the banning of or the attempt 791 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: to ban methochriston does is take it away from the state, because, um, 792 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,839 Speaker 1: we have seventeen states that say we're keeping for now 793 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: we're keeping abortion legal, and so it's like out of 794 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,840 Speaker 1: left field, that's the basic ruling. And then some Texas 795 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: judge or you know, a Texas judge comes in and says, now, 796 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,280 Speaker 1: I don't think they did such a good job deciding 797 00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: that methochriston was dangerous. Well, and it strikes me as well, Carol, 798 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: that when we're thinking about this, we have to consider that, yes, 799 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,399 Speaker 1: this is about abortion and access to the abortion pill, 800 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: but it also is about the jurisdiction of the FDA essentially. 801 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: And so I do wonder if this ultimately comes down 802 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court, which as we know, had has 803 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: already ruled in favor of rolling back abortion rights, if 804 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,240 Speaker 1: because of the FDA component and the kind of precedent 805 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: this would set, they may be compelled to rule in 806 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: a different way than you might think for a conservative majority. Well, 807 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:33,719 Speaker 1: I think that's right, and it's not just that they'll 808 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:35,720 Speaker 1: rule it, but they really have to take the case 809 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 1: because there's way more at stake with m saying the 810 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: FDA doesn't have the traditional authority that it has, and 811 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: you can test it out and say, we'll find we 812 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: don't want the abortion, so let them. Let them we'll 813 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: take that down. But they are so all of us 814 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: rely on the FDA to approve our drugs, our food, 815 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: and so we have as a country, we have great 816 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,399 Speaker 1: faith in this administrative agency. And you can't really pick 817 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,279 Speaker 1: and choose. We say, well, they act with integrity, they 818 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 1: do scientific experiments, they require high standards before they'll pass 819 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,879 Speaker 1: a you know, prove a drug. So that's you're you're 820 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: quite right. It's not just in a way. This is 821 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 1: very good for pro choice people because they have the 822 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 1: larger issue. They can present that as well. It's not 823 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 1: just us guys. Whatever drug you happen to like, you know, 824 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: that could now be at risk. The Florida band that 825 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,919 Speaker 1: Rhonda Santis sign is making big headlines. Here is six 826 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,719 Speaker 1: week band for its own reasons of course, but the 827 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 1: existing fifteen week band which he signed in a ceremony 828 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: as opposed to eleven o'clock last night, the way this 829 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,759 Speaker 1: was done, that's actually being contested as well. How does 830 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: that come to fruition? Well, the fifth so before we 831 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,719 Speaker 1: had doobs which said we're getting rid of abortion, the 832 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: right to abortion altogether. There everyone's thought that the issue 833 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,840 Speaker 1: was going to be how much time you get to 834 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: decide to have an abortion other than viability, because there 835 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: was a big argument that viability was too long a period. 836 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: And so but what the court did in Dobs say 837 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: don't worry about the length of time as the key 838 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:25,680 Speaker 1: way to get rid of abortion. We're gonna, We're going. 839 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 1: But states may say, yeah, we'll have we will have 840 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: legal abortion, but we'll only have it for six weeks 841 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:37,320 Speaker 1: or fifteen weeks, And fifteen weeks is um most women 842 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:42,800 Speaker 1: have women and girls have abortion at eight weeks or before, 843 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,799 Speaker 1: so we see that setting it at fifteen weeks it's 844 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,839 Speaker 1: sort of like a scare tactic, and setting it at 845 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: six weeks is really so hostile and aggressive because it's 846 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 1: still the case. We've got a lot of over the 847 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: counter of pregnancy testing, but a lot of women, especially 848 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,360 Speaker 1: younger women, don't know that they're pregnant by six weeks. 849 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,760 Speaker 1: But there is there there is still a question Carol, 850 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: of ultimately if this will stand, or even if the 851 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:18,399 Speaker 1: fifteen week ban will stand, the state Supreme Court still 852 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 1: has to issue a decision on constitutionality. I think there 853 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,399 Speaker 1: is a way that will go. You mean, in light 854 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,759 Speaker 1: if they've just the legislatures just past a six week pan, right, 855 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 1: but that can actually take effect, that's right. They have 856 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:36,080 Speaker 1: to decide this other one first, which is you know, 857 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 1: it's it's teed up to be decided, and it looks 858 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,800 Speaker 1: like the Santos is just um saying to his hard 859 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:48,439 Speaker 1: core base, Um, I'm I'm protecting you. I've got I've 860 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,800 Speaker 1: got your back, and if we lose on the fifteen, 861 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,640 Speaker 1: you know it doesn't matter. I'm going in with I've 862 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 1: already secured for you the six week ban. And so 863 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:02,600 Speaker 1: it's um, it's it's sort of like showing off or 864 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: grandstanding and saying, look a look at these numbers and 865 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 1: you'll see that I'm on your side. But actually most 866 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,439 Speaker 1: people don't favor the sixth week ban, as we saw 867 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,560 Speaker 1: on some of the referendum. That's for sure. No, it's 868 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: just not enough times. That's borne out in the polling 869 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 1: data across the board. Carol, thank you for joining us. 870 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 1: Carol Sanger, Professor of Law, Columbia University, author of About Abortion, 871 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,440 Speaker 1: Terminating Pregnancy in the twenty first century. My goodness, this 872 00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,520 Speaker 1: is a story that's not going away to your point earlier, Kayley, 873 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 1: as we get into a campaign season, you've got the 874 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,160 Speaker 1: likes of Rhonda Santis weighing in now. But one thing 875 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,319 Speaker 1: that we talked a lot about and probably not enough 876 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,360 Speaker 1: since around the dabb's decision, was the economic impact that 877 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,760 Speaker 1: this has on women. And you've actually put some data 878 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,440 Speaker 1: on this now, yeah, I mean and for Florida for specifically, 879 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,520 Speaker 1: since we were just talking about Rhonda Santis. The Institute 880 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 1: for Women's Policy Research in twenty twenty, so before things 881 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 1: had got even more restrictive, estimated that the total economic 882 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: loss for women of reproductive age, so fifteen to forty 883 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,319 Speaker 1: four because of state level abortion restrictions in Florida was 884 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,480 Speaker 1: six point five billion dollars, and that if you eliminated 885 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 1: those restrictive policies, you would have a six tensive percent 886 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,920 Speaker 1: increase in state GDP and a one and a quarter 887 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: percent increase in the state's labor force for women of 888 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,360 Speaker 1: that age. When you take that nationally, the same institute 889 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,200 Speaker 1: says that restrictive abortion laws cast state and local economies 890 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,240 Speaker 1: one hundred and five billion dollars annually by reducing labor 891 00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,920 Speaker 1: force participation and earnings levels for these women affected. That 892 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,080 Speaker 1: is really remarkable, but you know, we're bloomberg. We of 893 00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:42,440 Speaker 1: course follow the data and what was a compelling anecdotal 894 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,400 Speaker 1: argument means a lot more when you put numbers on it, 895 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:50,640 Speaker 1: doesn't it. Yeah. Absolutely, thanks for listening to The Sound 896 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,320 Speaker 1: On podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, 897 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,359 Speaker 1: at Apples, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts, 898 00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,320 Speaker 1: And you can find us live every weekday from Washington, 899 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: DC at one pm Eastern Time at Bloomberg dot com.