WEBVTT - Veteran Suicide with Chief Carmichael 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:04.359 Before we get into what this week's episode is about. 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:08.680 This is airing on Memorial Day. If anyone is listening 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.240 who lost a loved one in the line of duty, 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:13.159 I just want you to know that our hearts are 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:16.160 with you, our prayers are with you. I'm so sorry 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:19.400 for your loss. We honor your loved one and their 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.599 sacrifices for this country. If anyone who's listening who is 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:24.960 served or is currently serving, I just want to thank 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:26.920 you for what you're doing for this country. I know 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:29.800 it's probably a frustrating time with all this wokee nonsense 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.960 that the Biden administration is doing, but we appreciate you 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:35.040 and we thank you for your service in. 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:35.760 Honor of all that. 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:38.440 The conversation we're going to have today is with a 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.320 man named Chief Michael Carmichael. He is the founder of 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.680 an organization called Chekovet. He retired as an Army Chief 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:50.240 Warrant Officer for He served ten combat deployments to countries 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:55.000 like Iraq. He was in Special Forces for twenty two years, 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:57.959 which is a long time. He has served multiple depployments. 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:00.680 As I pointed out, what is the whole of a 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:04.000 twenty year war under military men and women. Have we 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:08.399 even comprehended what we have done to so many young people, 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:12.000 to so many people to have served multiple deployments in 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:14.479 these different arenas. We often hear the number of twenty 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.759 two vets a day, but it has been reported recently 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.319 that it might even be double, that it's significantly higher 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.280 than twenty two vets a day. So don't we have 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:26.360 a duty to the people who gave so much to 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.000 our country to the point where they've come home and 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.680 thinking about perhaps ending their lives. We have a duty 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.840 to try to understand what they've been through, what they're 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:38.520 going through, and try to find a way to help them. 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:41.880 Now Chief Michael Carmichael is doing just that with Check 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.000 a Vet. So what we're going to do today is 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.680 just talk to him about his services, his experience being 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:50.360 in the Special Forces for twenty two years, what those 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:54.360 multiple combat deployments have done to him, perhaps his mental health. 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:56.760 Talk to him about what he's experienced, and then also 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.520 why he decided to found Check a Vet and what 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:02.760 he's doing with that. So stay tuned for Chief Michael Carmichael. 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:12.000 Chief Carmichael, first of all, thank you for your servicer. 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.280 We just appreciate what you've done for the country. You 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.680 joined the Montana National Guard at seventeen years old with 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:23.519 consent for your parents. What led seventeen year old Michael 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:26.000 at the time to join the National Guard? 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:29.400 All my best friends, who were twin brothers joined. They 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:31.080 literally came up to me and they're like, hey, I 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.919 guess what we did well? They had joined the National Guard. 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:38.000 So I teased them for weeks until the realization that 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.200 I was going to spend my last summer without my 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:44.920 best friends. So eventually I ate Crow and ask him 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:46.880 where to sign up and the rest is history. 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:50.120 Before we get into what you're doing with trying to 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:54.480 help veterans with suicide, we're seeing a major recruiting problem 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:56.720 in the military right now. Why do you think more 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:59.880 and more young people are deciding against joining? 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.960 If I could be honest and use the caveat in 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:06.400 my opinion, I would say they're not Younger people aren't 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:07.399 used to hard work. 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:07.560 You know. 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.280 And after the National Guard, you went on to join 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:14.200 the Special Forces. I think it was in nineteen ninety four. 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:17.440 You attended Special Forces selected an assessment. 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:18.080 Is that correct? 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.360 Yes? Man, it's selection and assessment. 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:21.480 Okay, there you go. 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:23.840 And then you went on to spend twenty two years 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:30.000 in the US Special Forces with ten combat deployments Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:32.239 I mean, that's a long time. You know, that's a 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:33.800 lot of service to the country. That's a lot of 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.400 combat that you saw. What kind of toll does that 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:41.760 take on your body, on your mind, and on your life. 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.480 Pleasa, I think we're all put on this earth to 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.760 do something, and I think God put me on this 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:51.480 earth to do that. Surprisingly, I'm still relatively fit, at 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:55.000 least I like to think so, still have my faculties. 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:59.480 As I retired from the service and the VA had 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.480 to assume responsibility of me, they kept having me do 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:05.240 the psyche vals over and over and over again, and 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.040 I come to find out it's because they couldn't find 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.920 any signs of PTSD, which was pretty unique. I guess 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.200 I'm a unicorn, but no, I mean, I don't have 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:15.360 any complaints. It was a blink of an eye, and 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:16.640 I only wished I could do more. 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.480 How frequent is PTSD among our veterans. 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.480 As I look across the landscape of my friends and 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:28.240 fellow operators and just other guys that I had served with, 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:33.280 it's it's got to be in the ninety percent percentile 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:36.839 and to talk to that. And this is something that 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.560 I completely don't understand is. 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:44.960 Some of the worst people that struggle with PTSD the 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:49.640 most are from MOSS that are like cooks and truck 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.960 drivers and equipment operators who never even actually you know, 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:59.000 left the fob and got to you know, employ their 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:02.960 weapon and people Americas save for democracy. 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:04.040 They never left. 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:05.800 So why do you think that is. 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.200 That's a great question and it's got a simple answer. 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:15.159 Being a ranger in Special Forces, even an infantryman, there's 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:18.080 so much that you go through to make sure that 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:22.760 you're of the right cloth. So we're tested to make 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:26.600 sure that we're more prepared, whereas the cooks and the 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.080 truck drivers they're just thrown in. 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.920 So maybe there's some strong correlation with that. 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:34.840 No, I've talked to a lot of Special Forces guys 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.800 who talk about sort of the difficulty when you come 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.599 home and just feeling like life's kind of passed you 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:42.400 by here and or you know, or you know, life 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:45.120 is you've been out you know, wherever, in the mountains 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.720 of Afghanistan or whatever, and it feels like it's been 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:49.880 you know, like one hundred years for you because you've 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.680 seen so much, You've gone through so much, you've grown 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.360 so much as a person, and seeing all that and 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:58.080 then you know, you come home and it feels like 0:05:58.200 --> 0:05:59.800 a lot of the folks in your life are still 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.119 up and you know, things that sort of don't matter 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:04.479 as much, or you know, sort of insignificant things, or 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.159 the same girlfriend they were hung up on, or whatever 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.080 it is. You know, how how hard is that coming 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:14.400 home when obviously you've just been through something that the 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:16.120 people in your life just aren't going to really be 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:17.000 able to understand. 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:20.720 That leads me to an experience that I had. I 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:24.480 just came home from one of our toughest tours in Iraq, 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:28.600 and I remember standing in the Walmart line and the 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:32.320 lady who was in front of me was completely stressed out, 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.800 you know, being being a pain and being ugly to 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:39.840 the clerk. And I remember thinking in my mind, I'm 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:44.600 glad that this American thinks that that's what stress is, 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:48.919 because that's not stress. So coming home, it's it's always 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:53.279 a transition. Some some people do it better than others, 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.640 And I would say from my experience, the more you 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:59.760 do it, the easier it gets. But you have to 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.599 read that when you do come home, your family unit 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:08.520 has completely adapted to life without you. So a big 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:12.840 mistake that type A personalities have when they come home, 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:15.960 It's like, Okay, Daddy's home and I'm in charge again. 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.280 So everybody back up. So you can't do that. 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:19.880 You can't. 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:24.240 You have to be more sensitive to what everybody's been 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.440 doing and making the households about. 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:31.120 You had mentioned coming back from one of the toughest 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:35.240 tours in Iraq. What made that specific tour so difficult? 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:37.480 I very sensitively used toughest. 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:42.280 I would say that was one of my most enjoyable 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:47.680 and productive tours. That was I think two thousand and seven, 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:52.280 when General Petraeus had started doing the blockade around Beg 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:56.160 Dad in order to lock down the city and keep 0:07:56.200 --> 0:08:00.760 the bombs and the bad guys out. It was just 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:08.160 that tour was you know, glory. They say pain heels. 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:13.480 You know, chicks dig scars, but glory lasts forever. That 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:17.920 trip was nothing but glory. So that's how I look 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:19.920 at it. It was a it was a great experience 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.200 for me, but it was a it was a huge 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.160 grind for all of us, but a good deal for me. 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.800 Is it frustrating to have spent time in Afghanistan and 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:33.040 Iraq and then see what's been happening in Afghanistan and 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:34.480 to see it fall so quickly. 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:35.760 I love that you're. 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.520 Asking me that question, because I think my perspective is 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:40.880 pretty unique. It broke my heart when we came home 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:44.160 from Iraq. I did eight tours in Iraq, and really 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.480 I was in Iraq before the war started. I infilled 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:52.120 a team of an agency and Delta operators and I 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.280 had so much invested in Iraq that when we pulled 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:59.679 out and the way that we pulled out, it broke 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:03.080 my heart. But I knew at the end of the day, 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:07.640 I had the maturity to understand, this is not our country. 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.880 It is not fair for us to impose our presence 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:15.960 and values on the world. So I think I got 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:19.760 a little calloused by that in a good way. And 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.080 when they shut down Afghanistan, sure there was there was 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.360 lots of issues with that, and I'm not going to 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.000 defend any of that at all. All I can say 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:33.560 is from my perspective, when you boil all the meat 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:37.000 off of the bone, we had to leave somehow. We 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.720 didn't do it gracefully, but we left. 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.560 I think that. You know, look, I agree with you 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.080 know what you just said. You know, obviously you've lived this, 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:47.920 you know I haven't, So I respect what you're saying. 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:51.599 Do you feel in those experiences and spending time in 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:55.440 these countries where you know, obviously the objective turned into 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:58.200 two nation building more or less? Is that sort of 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:01.040 a fruitless exercise? I mean, you'd talked about how, you know, 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:04.200 we can't really impose our will and or values on 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.760 some of these other countries. You know, they are these 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:08.080 countries are what they are. 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:09.600 You know, that's great. 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:13.120 So I was actually there when I think his name 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:17.400 was Brenner, and so the State Department sent this guy 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.120 and he was really in charge of the nation building. 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.199 And the first thing that this guy wanted to do 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:27.440 was anybody that was in the bath party was bad, okay. 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:33.400 And what I was screaming back then was, hey, everybody's 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:37.080 in the bath party. It's not like you got Republicans, Democrats, 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:41.600 and independents. There's only one show in town. So with 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.000 regard to nation building, that was a huge mistake. 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:45.920 That took a couple of. 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.440 Years for us to write and go out and find 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.240 those people who could run the systems of government that 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:54.600 we needed ran. 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:59.000 But then two even at the end of the. 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.800 Day, as we as we closed Iraq, and you know, 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.680 even in like four h five, I really saw the 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:09.800 writing on the wall that by doing one man, one 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:15.320 vote in the non representative type of government like Lebanon has, 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.679 they have a representative democracy. So if we do one man, 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:22.160 one vote and look over the country of Iraq, well, 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:26.960 guess what, you just handed the country to Iran and 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.120 the Shia, which is something the Iran Iraq Wars couldn't do. 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.440 But by us doing what we did and not being 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:41.200 sensitive to a comprehensive nation building strategy really alienated the 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.640 Sunnis and alienated the Kurds in the north. 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.920 You know, obviously, having spent time in you know, Afghanistan, 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:52.199 let's say, you know, you saw you know, terrorists, you 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:54.640 know up close, you know, what should people know about 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:56.839 you know, the Taliban and and sort of what did 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:57.280 you see? 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:01.360 At least a full disclosure. I never step foot in Afghanistan. 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.560 I was I was in the invasion and I was 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:10.640 actually on the first Special Forces Operational Detachment Alpha that 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.240 was chosen to do a MIC force. We hadn't done 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.080 a MIC force since Vietnam, and what that is is 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:20.440 we're going to put American troops in an adjacent country 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.199 to interdict the bad guys as they come and go 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:27.520 from what they perceived to be a safe area. So 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:34.960 that said, while I was in Pakistan, I'm very comfortable 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:38.840 saying that the terrorists and the bad guys, the talib 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:44.080 and the al Qaeda operators that we saw there was 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:49.959 there were so many of them, and there they're demeanors 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.480 were different because they thought that they were in a 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:53.079 safe zone. 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:55.600 But that said, you get down to. 0:12:55.600 --> 0:13:00.520 The ideology of the people, and like some of the 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:07.439 hardest fighters and some of the most ruthless terrorists are 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:12.920 those that really believe that their mission and purpose is 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:15.520 grounded in Allah, is grounded in God. 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:20.840 So how do you fight that. The only thing you 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:22.200 can do is eliminate it. 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:27.240 But to answer your question, it's really unique to see 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.960 I consider myself a very godly person, but it's unique 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:37.120 to see a group of people justify the worst the 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:39.719 word at least, I'm talking the worst behavior you can 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:44.079 imagine with God wants me to do this, So that's. 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.559 It, Okay, So this is why I saw that on 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.360 the bio said the initial invasion into Afghanistan. So that's 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.480 where the disconnect came from where you were just laying out, 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.000 we're going to take a quick commercial break more with 0:13:55.160 --> 0:14:01.840 Chief Michael Carmichael. Let's sit sears into check a VET. 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.360 So you had talked about how you know you're one 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.720 of the lucky ones who haven't suffered from PTSD. So 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:11.960 why didn't take on the mantle of check a Vet. 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.959 You know what sort of spurred that decision to want 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:17.560 to be a part of that or to start it. 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:20.400 The bottom line is I don't want to complain about 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:25.280 something without offering a solution. I was a founder and 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.760 a national secretary for a different nonprofit whose mission was 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:33.000 the same. They wanted to prevent veteran suicide, but their 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.960 approach was completely different. And it's an approach that you 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.720 see across the nonprofit landscape, and that's, hey, we're going 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:43.760 to prevent veteran suicide by taking them hunting or fishing 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:45.080 or to a concert. 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.640 And as a founding member, having been in the. 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:53.000 Room as the idea took shape, I was like, guys, 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:57.320 this is not it. There's eighteen million veterans. You can't 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.920 take them all hunting and fishing, even if you could. 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:05.240 Even if you could, suicide is a struggle that lasts 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:08.720 period of time, maybe the rest of their lives. So 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:12.800 going hunting or fishing it just doesn't match. It doesn't 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:16.040 accomplish our mission. So what we have to do is 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:18.480 three things, and we have to do those three things. Well, 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:21.880 the first thing, Lisa, is what you're doing right now. 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:27.120 You're helping check of raise awareness to veteran suicide. You 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:32.680 know your reputation of putting what matters out in the 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.600 news cycle. You're doing it right now. So raise awareness 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:40.080 of veteran suicide. What are the numbers? What are the problems? 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:45.960 Then two, we need to get Americans involved in veterans' lives. 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.840 Everybody's too busy. You know, veterans are their own worst enemy. 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.480 Where grumpy or whatever. Get past all that. These are 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:57.560 our nation's heroes. They deserve our effort and time. And 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.920 then three, once we get those people involved in veterans' lives, 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:06.760 we really need to provide some education on what the 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:11.320 protective and risk factors are to suicide. So as you 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:15.000 observe somebody's behavior, you can kind of take notes and 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.360 refer back, like, hey, you know this is what he's 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:20.280 doing or she's doing here is not good. 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.720 It's risky behavior. So those are the three. 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:27.360 Things, and that's really the approach and where I came 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.000 from and what led me to start checking out. 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.040 Well, I'm grumpy sometimes, but I have no excuse, so 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.520 I haven't earned the ability to be to be grumpy. 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:40.280 You know, you had mentioned some of the risk factors. 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:42.440 You know, surely there are a lot of people listening 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.400 who have a loved one who has served and they 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:47.960 might be wondering, you know, what are some of the 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:50.440 risk factors. You know, what should they look for if 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:53.680 they might be concerned that, you know, maybe they're a 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.320 loved one who has returned having some challenges with that. 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.160 I tell you A big one and it's easy to 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:05.639 spot is isolation. My brothers and sisters, something will happen. 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:09.440 And I did it myself. I mean, my transition out 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:13.840 of the military was very difficult, so I isolated. I 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:17.080 had gone from having the confidence of my commanders and 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:22.160 my men to literally putting a dent in my bed. 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:27.320 So that isolation is a terrible risk factor. But other 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:32.080 more subtle things that you can look for are like 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:36.800 needless risk taking, like driving fast or being what other 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:42.320 people would consider crazy. And then you get into some 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:49.560 of the bedrock ones, which is untreated mental illness, untreated 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:56.840 alcohol or substance abuse. These as we talk about these 0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:02.600 risk factors, really these are the problems that is suicide. 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.840 Suicide is a symptom, it's not the problem. If you 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:11.240 treat these risk factors in a responsible way, you'll never 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:13.879 have the suicide. So that's how I look at the 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:14.600 risk factors. 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:15.880 Do we have an idea? 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.120 I know that you know the twenty two a day 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:20.919 number has been put out there of you know, veteran 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:22.200 suicides per day. 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:23.480 Is that accurate? 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.560 My understanding is there's recently been some question that it 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:29.240 might be substantially higher, perhaps even double. 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.280 Do we have an accurate number? 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:32.520 You know? 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:34.159 Do we know have they tried to get to the 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.159 bottom of that of just how prevalent this is in society? 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.119 Yeah, the twenty two a day has really been in 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:44.120 the in the narrative since I think about twenty seventeen 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:48.359 or eighteen when according to the VA, that was the number. 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:53.080 So but this year as their numbers report for back 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.760 in twenty twenty, if you look at the VA's numbers, 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.239 it's sixteen point eight veteran suicides per day, so called 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:06.879 that seventeen but AWP, the American Warrior Partnership received a 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.640 grant from Bristol Myers Squib that was like three point 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.760 five million, and they partnered with Duke and then they 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:16.400 partnered with the University of Alabama and they really got 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.240 after looking and trying to define the problem, and it 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:24.399 was it was really thoughtful because they started in the 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:28.000 small towns and then the cities and the counties, and 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.800 then across the states. And one of the states that 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.359 they did was Montana, who at the time was the 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.280 worst state in the nation for suicide. But what they 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:42.320 came up with was the VA is under reporting the 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:46.080 suicides by a factor of two point four times. 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:48.719 So yeah, it is more than double. 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:55.000 But if you look into the methodology of Operation Deep Dive, 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.960 which is what I'm talking about, they had a lot 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:01.800 of struggles trying to get inform and in fact they 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.679 had to exclude some of the worst groups for suicide 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:08.920 because the information simply wasn't there. So I would say 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:13.439 it's worse than two point four times the reported numbers. 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:15.880 Well, that's a sad reflection of the VA. If they're 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.520 intentionally under reporting that. I assume it's because it maybe 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:23.040 implicates them and perhaps not giving the services that we 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:25.240 should be giving to veterans. What is the sort of 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:27.920 the collective experience in dealing with the VA. 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:30.760 I have a good relationship with the VA. 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:36.640 That said, I think that if you do an amazing 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.280 job for ten people, maybe one of them will tell 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:42.920 some of their friends that you did an amazing job. 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.840 But if you do a crappy job for one person, 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:49.040 they're going to tell everybody they know that you did 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:52.400 a crappy job. So in the context of the VA, 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:56.240 I wouldn't want that job. And I know that they 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:00.440 do good, but the times where they're not doing good, 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:04.160 it's amplified so loud that you can't hear the good 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:10.040 past that. Yeah, I really cringe when I get into 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:13.040 the subject of the manipulation of data. 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:15.440 I've become a nerd. 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:19.359 I went from a barrel chested freedom fighter who was 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:22.639 taking care of business overseas to burying my nose in 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:27.800 appendixes and data spreadsheets and all that stuff. You just 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.200 there's no other way to look at it other than 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:35.679 intentional data manipulation. And I throw my hands up and 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.640 think I wouldn't want to be in charge of this mission. 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:42.399 But if I was, my God, I'm going to do 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:47.119 accurate reporting so that the people who are holding me 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:50.760 accountable at least know how bad the problem is. Don't 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:53.159 twist it, report it own it. 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:53.600 Well. 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.600 Unfortunately, we've seen, especially in the age of COVID, a 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:02.679 lot of government manipulation when it comes to data. You know, 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:05.119 it's if you're looking for truth, you're you're not going 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:07.760 to get it from from government, that's for sure. 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:10.199 Do we know you know? 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.440 I mean, obviously a twenty year war is substantial. I mean, 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:17.080 you've got a lot of people having done multiple deployments, 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.960 such as yourself, you know, in various arenas. You talked 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:25.960 about your experience in Iraq. Do we have data? I mean, 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:29.040 do we have information about the toll that that takes 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.959 on one's body? I mean, have there been other points 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:35.280 in history where we have sent people, you know, back 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:38.600 that many times to these different arenas in such a 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:39.800 you know, period of time. 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:42.320 Absolutely not. This was unique. 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:44.840 I mean, look look back to the years World War One, 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:49.400 World War two, Korea, I think Korea to a lesser extent, 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:53.040 but the Great Wars, it was Hey, go over there 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:55.000 and win. You know, I think that there was a 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:57.920 cutoff of a year, maybe a couple of years. But 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:00.600