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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio, Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Nol. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer,

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Speaker 1: Paul Michig control decades. Most importantly, you are you, You

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Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know. Interestingly enough, many of our fellow listeners

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Speaker 1: have written into us on a regular basis over the years,

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Speaker 1: asking us to cover more things about UFOs, whether that's

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Speaker 1: just unexplained aerial phenomena, whether that's uh, you know, allegations

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Speaker 1: of visitations by extra terrestrial or even extra dimensional entities. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And we've we've taken a swing at a lot of it,

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Speaker 1: but today we're bringing out the big guns. In fact,

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Speaker 1: you could say today's episode concerns the most important UFO

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Speaker 1: story in American history. It's a strange, twisting tale. It

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Speaker 1: begins all the way back in nine one, but it's

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Speaker 1: a story that has ramifications which continue to influence the

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Speaker 1: world of UFO research here in the modern day. That's right,

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Speaker 1: and today we are not going to tackle this alone.

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Speaker 1: We have brought along and are joined by a journalist

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Speaker 1: and author. His name is Toby Ball. He is the

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Speaker 1: host of the new show Strange Arrivals that is executive

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Speaker 1: produced by Aaron Makey. By the way, it's a new

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Speaker 1: show in our network that delves deep into the Betty

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Speaker 1: and Barney Hills story. Thanks for coming on the show, Toby.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on now, Toby, before we begin

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Speaker 1: today's show, we would be remiss if we didn't mention

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Speaker 1: the fact that you are, in addition to being an

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Speaker 1: author and a journalist, you are also a podcaster in

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Speaker 1: the world of crime. Is that correct? That's right. For

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Speaker 1: about five and a half years, I've been one of

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Speaker 1: the four co hosts of Crime Writers on and every

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Speaker 1: week we review a couple of true crime properties. Occasionally

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Speaker 1: um fictional crime as well, if that happens to be

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Speaker 1: hot at the moment. So podcasts, you know, HBO series, documentaries,

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Speaker 1: things like that, and I would just say that, uh,

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Speaker 1: they're very honest in their reviews. They've They've done several

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Speaker 1: that I know, Nolan I have made, Hannah Ben, you

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Speaker 1: might have one coming down the Pike soon too. They're

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Speaker 1: really honest and it is a it's a great show

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Speaker 1: if you want to get an objective take. Dare we

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Speaker 1: say brutally honest? Sometimes sometimes I think Nolan I have

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Speaker 1: both felt that before, felt the wrath. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know it's worth a listen. Did you did you

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Speaker 1: work on uh the Oregon Murder? I did? I did? Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think you were the one that you were the

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Speaker 1: one that dug it, but everybody else hated it apparently.

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Speaker 1: Actually I couldn't even bring myself to listen to it.

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Speaker 1: But you and I spoke a little bit, and I

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Speaker 1: know that you, uh, you stood up for it, and

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate them. Yeah, I did. I actually did

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Speaker 1: really like that one. Um awesome, But that's not what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about today, No, it's not. And I want

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Speaker 1: to be the first to say I really like Strange Arrivals,

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Speaker 1: which is what we are here to talk about. It's

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Speaker 1: such a lushly sound designed and soundscaped storytelling kind of

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Speaker 1: bordering on true crime. It feels like a mystery kind of.

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Speaker 1: There's this wonderful atmosphere to it. Your narration is super solid,

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Speaker 1: the writing is great, all the archival stuff really enriches

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Speaker 1: the experience. And you know, kudos for for the first episode.

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Speaker 1: I can't wait to hear more. New episodes are out

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Speaker 1: every Tuesday. As we record this, we should note to

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Speaker 1: be strange arrivals. It addresses, as you have mentioned, Matt,

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Speaker 1: it addresses the story of Betty and Barney Hill. Now,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people in our audience today no sort

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Speaker 1: of the the broad strokes of some aspects of the

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Speaker 1: tail or. They've at least heard the name right the

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Speaker 1: Hill case mentioned, But we were hoping we could begin

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Speaker 1: today with a little bit closer look at the overall

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Speaker 1: lay of the land. UH. On this show, we always

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Speaker 1: like to start with the facts. So for the here

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Speaker 1: are the facts portion of our show. Could you give

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Speaker 1: us maybe just a broad outline of what the story is? UH.

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Speaker 1: It starts on September nine, one right, yes, So what

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Speaker 1: the basic the sort of bones of the story are.

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Speaker 1: Betty and Barney Hill were a mixed race couple from Portsmouth,

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Speaker 1: New Hampshire, professionals in their community, UH, leaders in the

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Speaker 1: civil rights UH movement in in our area of New Hampshire.

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Speaker 1: This I live in southeast New Hampshire as well. UH.

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Speaker 1: So they went on a vacation. Uh. They went to

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Speaker 1: Niagara Falls, they went up to Toronto, UM, and they

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Speaker 1: were going to go and spend a final night the

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Speaker 1: night of September nine in Montreal, and for some reason UH,

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Speaker 1: and there's been a number of reasons given as to

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Speaker 1: why this was UH, they didn't spend the night there. Instead,

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Speaker 1: well into the evening, they decided to drive all the

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Speaker 1: way back to Portsmouth, New Hampshire, which was probably about

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Speaker 1: a seven hour drive at that time. So they started

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Speaker 1: heading south across the border. They stopped at a um

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Speaker 1: A diner to grab something to eat. As they were

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Speaker 1: leaving the diner, they noticed that it was about a

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Speaker 1: little bit after ten o'clock at night, and they continued

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Speaker 1: to head south and they started to notice they saw

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Speaker 1: a light in the sky that seemed a little brighter

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Speaker 1: than others and UH and Betty in particular sort of

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Speaker 1: fig stated on that they stopped a couple of times

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Speaker 1: it seemed as though it was following them. And then

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Speaker 1: they stopped one time just north of a place in

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Speaker 1: the mountains called Franconia Notch. They got out, they looked

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Speaker 1: through binoculars, couldn't quite figure out what it was, but

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Speaker 1: it definitely seemed odd. It wasn't another star. Uh. They

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Speaker 1: thought maybe it was a plane, um, but weren't weren't

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Speaker 1: quite sure what to think. It got back in the car.

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Speaker 1: They started to head down through Franconia Notch, which is

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Speaker 1: this area that cuts between uh these two sort of

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Speaker 1: sets of mountains. Um, it's very very steep on either side.

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Speaker 1: It feels it feels pretty um claustrophobic. They pulled up

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Speaker 1: to a place called the Old Man in the Mountain,

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Speaker 1: which uh is no longer there. It actually uh crashed

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Speaker 1: to the ground in two thousand and three, I think,

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Speaker 1: but it used to be this this sort of natural

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Speaker 1: rock formation that looked like an old Man. And they

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Speaker 1: saw an actual craft at this point with with lights

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Speaker 1: and it was hovering and it wasn't making any noise,

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Speaker 1: and so they looked at it and then it it

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Speaker 1: left again and they got back into their car, and

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Speaker 1: then you know, the hearts are pounding. They keep driving

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Speaker 1: south through Fanconia Notch, stopping every once in a while

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Speaker 1: to to see if they can see it. And they

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Speaker 1: get a little bit further south near a tourist area

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Speaker 1: called Indian Head, which is another sort of natural rock

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Speaker 1: formation that looks a tiny bit I guess like an

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Speaker 1: Indian head. And then you know, they feel this thing

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Speaker 1: whoosh over their car. They stopped their car in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the highway. I mean this is at night

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Speaker 1: in very world New Hampshire, so there's almost no traffic,

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Speaker 1: there's no ambient light, and they see a craft hovering

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Speaker 1: above a field. Barney gets out. Uh, he approaches the

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Speaker 1: craft with binoculars and sees beings looking back at him.

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Speaker 1: He panics, runs back to the car. They take off

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Speaker 1: down the highway. Uh, there's a sense that the UFO

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Speaker 1: is following them. It's like sort of hovering above them

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Speaker 1: as they move. Uh, they feel this here, this buzzing noise,

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Speaker 1: and feel like a little bit of a tinge in

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Speaker 1: their bodies. And then about thirty miles further down the

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Speaker 1: road they kind of come to you know, they haven't

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Speaker 1: said anything, they're not really clear of time passing, but

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Speaker 1: suddenly they're down by uh this town Ashelynd, New Hampshire,

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Speaker 1: and they wonder what happened. And so they've had this

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Speaker 1: strange experience and they drive home basically straight from there.

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Speaker 1: They make a quick stop trying to get some coffee,

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Speaker 1: but they end up arriving home UH two or three

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Speaker 1: hours later than they're expecting to arrive home. They get there,

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Speaker 1: they unpacked their car. They notice a few interesting things.

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Speaker 1: They Betty's dresses torn, barney shoes are scuffed, their watches

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Speaker 1: have stopped at identical times, and they they called Betty's sisters.

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Speaker 1: Neighbor was a physicist, and they for whatever reason, Betty

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Speaker 1: thinks that maybe he'll have some insight into this. He

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Speaker 1: suggests they go and they put a compass over UH

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Speaker 1: their car to see if there's any strange magnetism. They

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Speaker 1: apparently do this over the trunk where these bright spots

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Speaker 1: and the compass starts spinning wildly. So there was all

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Speaker 1: these little pieces of what they considered to be evidence

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Speaker 1: that something strange had happened during that time. And then

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Speaker 1: about ten days later, Betty has this series of very

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Speaker 1: very intense nightmares about being brought aboard UH an alien

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Speaker 1: spacecraft and having sort of a medical examination done to

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Speaker 1: her on the spacecraft by aliens, and it is very

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Speaker 1: disturbed by this. She tells this story UH to a

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Speaker 1: variety of people, including her supervisor. She apparently, I guess

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Speaker 1: used to have tea with her supervisor and her sister,

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Speaker 1: and she she tells him about these nightmares she's having,

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Speaker 1: and her supervisor, uh, for whatever reason, says, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe you know, maybe they're not just nightmares. Maybe you're

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Speaker 1: actually remembering something that actually happened really really quickly. So

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Speaker 1: this is so, I mean, this is you're you're going

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Speaker 1: through like all of these things that have happened and

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Speaker 1: so far through all of this except with the exception

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Speaker 1: of a few extra people there. These are the personal

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Speaker 1: experiences of two people and the stories that we're getting

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Speaker 1: from two points of view right there, or were the

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Speaker 1: only two people that we are to believe right now

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Speaker 1: currently are Betty and Barney about what's happened besides the

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Speaker 1: neighbor and you know, the supervisor right right, So there

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Speaker 1: wasn't any other sort of corroborating witness to see anything

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Speaker 1: that night they did, you know, they pretty immediately started

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Speaker 1: telling people about what they had seen, you know, So

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Speaker 1: it's not this isn't something where two years later there's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: by the way, you know, two years ago we saw

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Speaker 1: this thing. They they get in touch with a UFO

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Speaker 1: investigation group called Nightcap, which was pretty big at the time, um,

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Speaker 1: and they send an astronomer to come and interview them, um,

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Speaker 1: and he writes up a report. But at the time,

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Speaker 1: it really is the extent of it is seeing this

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Speaker 1: light in the sky and then having this very very

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Speaker 1: intense experience in this field by the Indian Head resort

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Speaker 1: and then heading home. And that's kind of what they remember, uh,

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Speaker 1: served consciously throughout the whole thing, and they you know,

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Speaker 1: they draw a picture of what they saw. Betty writes

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Speaker 1: down a narrative of her dreams nightcap. By the way,

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Speaker 1: for anyone who's interested, was a thing called the National

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Speaker 1: Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, and it was active roughly

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties to the nineteen eighties. So this was a

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Speaker 1: real this was a real prime time heyday for the organization.

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Speaker 1: I guess we would sum up then for our or

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Speaker 1: look at these unusual instances. So so Betty and Barney

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Speaker 1: see this anomalous thing. Uh. They also, uh, when they

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Speaker 1: kind of come to out of a fugue state, they've

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Speaker 1: lost time. Would it be fair to say that from

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Speaker 1: their account they have lost time? Yeah, they absolutely think that.

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Speaker 1: I think sort of the the unusual nature of the

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Speaker 1: whole experience makes the lost time part of it seemed

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Speaker 1: not as like that seems to kind of fall back

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Speaker 1: as compared to seeing, uh, you know, a spacecraft in

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Speaker 1: the middle of a field, but as time kind of

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Speaker 1: goes on. Um, and especially after she has those dreams,

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Speaker 1: that is something they're like, huh, you know that is

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Speaker 1: kind of year that it took an extra two hours

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Speaker 1: to get home. What what went on there? I'd like

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Speaker 1: to maybe bracket this just for a second, because what

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Speaker 1: what you've just outlined, uh succinctly and and very well

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Speaker 1: is the is the order of events in which they

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Speaker 1: occur that we that we know for sure per Betty

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Speaker 1: and Barney. Uh. For many people this would probably remain

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Speaker 1: the most inexplicable, strangest experience of their adult lives. But

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Speaker 1: this is just sort of the beginning of the tale.

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Speaker 1: And one thing I like, without spoiling strange arrivals, one

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Speaker 1: thing I I was surprised to find and fascinated by

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Speaker 1: was there's a segment early on in the podcast where

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Speaker 1: you talk a bit about your own personal experience. I

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Speaker 1: think it's at the very beginning of the very first episode. Uh,

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Speaker 1: could you could you tell us a little bit just

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Speaker 1: we have something to compare with Betty and Barney. Could

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Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about your experience and

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Speaker 1: what you see as differences or commonalities and maybe whether

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Speaker 1: that inspired you to pursue this show. Yeah, so um

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Speaker 1: strange arrivals. Actually it starts with me talking about uh

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Speaker 1: an experience and experiences is maybe putting it too strongly, Uh,

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Speaker 1: but uh, I was having so my family's got a

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Speaker 1: place up on an island in a lake in New

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Speaker 1: Hampshire called Lake Winnipesaki, which is you know, it's about

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Speaker 1: an hour and a half, two hours from where Betty

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Speaker 1: and Barney had their experience. And it was right around

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Speaker 1: dusk and we were having uh dinner and drinks with

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Speaker 1: a couple who are old friends of ours, my wife

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Speaker 1: and I and uh my wife saw these red lights

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Speaker 1: sort of hovering above, you know, sort of the hills

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Speaker 1: that you can see uh on the porch of our house.

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Speaker 1: You know, it was just strange. You know, I've been

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Speaker 1: going up there for fifty years and I hadn't seen

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Speaker 1: anything quite like that before. And it was enough that

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Speaker 1: we we walked down from the porch and we walked

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Speaker 1: onto our dock to get a better look, and you know,

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Speaker 1: the number of lights. I believe it started with four

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Speaker 1: and probably got up to about seven red lights, and

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Speaker 1: they were kind of moving around and it wasn't clear,

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Speaker 1: you know, there there was some distance away, there was

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Speaker 1: no noise, and it wasn't clear if there are individual

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Speaker 1: things that were moving or whether it was a larger

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Speaker 1: thing that was kind of you know, moving in its

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Speaker 1: aspect to us, so that we were getting a different

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Speaker 1: view of what it was. I mean, that was sort

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Speaker 1: of the illusion that we had. And I just I

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Speaker 1: just I checked. My wife was checking. She wrote some

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Speaker 1: notes about this afterwards. Uh, and we watched it for

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Speaker 1: twenty minutes, you know, so it was a good long

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Speaker 1: time that we were watching this, you know, and it

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Speaker 1: never got to be more than just lights. You know,

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Speaker 1: we never saw like an outline of anything sing or ane.

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Speaker 1: Of the lights seemed to have uh you know, more

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Speaker 1: to them. So what's what's kind of interesting is, you know,

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Speaker 1: while we're watching this, my buddy and I are like,

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Speaker 1: how I wonder what that is? And my wife and

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Speaker 1: and my buddy's wife were like, oh, yeah, that's definitely

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Speaker 1: that's what those are. That's an alien spacecraft, Like no

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Speaker 1: doubt about it. And then you know, if you talk

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Speaker 1: to us now, like my buddy and I are, the

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Speaker 1: way we remember and ending is the lights just kind

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Speaker 1: of blinked out one by one, like they just kind

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Speaker 1: of disappeared, and uh, my wife and and uh and

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Speaker 1: my buddy's wife are both say that they took off

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Speaker 1: at high speeds. You know, they just kind of took

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Speaker 1: off and disappeared. But there was movement involved. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: just blinking out. So this has been a source of

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Speaker 1: of some some dispute at various times after a few libations, um.

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Speaker 1: And so that was kind of it was an interesting

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Speaker 1: question to me. It's like, why did half of us

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Speaker 1: believe right off the bat, It's like, wow, that must

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Speaker 1: be something extraterrestrial, and then half of us were like,

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Speaker 1: it could be just about anything, have no clue what

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Speaker 1: it is, but it's definitely not that um. And that

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Speaker 1: was kind of what got me thinking about these kinds

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Speaker 1: of questions in general, like why are some people uh

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Speaker 1: skeptical about these things? Why are the people more prone

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Speaker 1: to believe these things when you're looking at exactly the

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Speaker 1: same thing. Right, the evidence that we had was identical,

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Speaker 1: And then based on that that first instinct, our memories

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Speaker 1: of what happened are are are very different. It's really fascinating.

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Speaker 1: The whole idea of like the fallibility of memory, I

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Speaker 1: think is a really interesting spin on this, And especially

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Speaker 1: when it was sort of split between the believers and

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Speaker 1: the nonbelievers as to how you actually visually, you know,

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Speaker 1: interpreted this information like and then took that and created like,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is this is this is this phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: I absolutely believe it. It's not such a leap to

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Speaker 1: think that. It's just really interesting to me that And

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Speaker 1: so what where did you guys land on that? Like

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Speaker 1: when you like, what do these debates sound like over

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Speaker 1: a few drinks like that? How do you make your case?

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Speaker 1: Was it just okay I can monke this podcast? Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: you know it's you know, nobody budgets Basically, you know,

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Speaker 1: people dig in their heels and we have another beer

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Speaker 1: and we dig in our heels even further. And uh,

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Speaker 1: there really hasn't been any kind of movement towards the

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Speaker 1: center from anybody. I mean, you just the memories, the

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Speaker 1: memory um and and that's kind of what made it

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Speaker 1: compelling to me. Um. And when I was talking to

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Speaker 1: my friend about this podcast. He had the same same feeling.

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Speaker 1: It's like it is, it is super strange that we all,

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Speaker 1: you know, at this point it's what like six years ago.

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Speaker 1: It's not that long, UM, but our memories of it

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Speaker 1: are just are so different, and there's just no gift

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Speaker 1: to anybody. Everybody is very clear about what they remember.

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Speaker 1: So I was trying to figure out a way of like,

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Speaker 1: how do you approach like examining this, UM And that

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Speaker 1: was when I kind of latched onto the Betty and

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Speaker 1: Party hillcase. Uh, partly because I live UM in the

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Speaker 1: same town as the University of New Hampshire and they've

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Speaker 1: got the Betty and Party Hill papers and um a

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Speaker 1: lot of other kinds of documents, audio documents, video documents, uh, photographs,

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Speaker 1: So it seemed like it seemed like kind of a

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Speaker 1: natural as a way of taking a look at it,

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Speaker 1: because it does bring up a lot of the same

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Speaker 1: issues about you know, perception and memory and how how

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Speaker 1: do you approach how do you approach making sense of

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Speaker 1: things that that you experience that don't have an obvious explanation.

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Speaker 1: And we'll be back with our discussion with Toby Ball

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Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsor welcome back to the show. Now,

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Speaker 1: let's keep on with this conversation. You know, we're we're

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Speaker 1: talking about belief here. Something Ben has stated on this

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Speaker 1: podcast before. I'm gonna paraphrase. But each of our understandings

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Speaker 1: of the world, it's only the information that we've ever

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Speaker 1: taken in, right, You. We can't know things necessarily that

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Speaker 1: we've never accepted it like as as information into our brains.

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Speaker 1: So each of us has that different perspective of all

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Speaker 1: the information we know and then applying it to what

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Speaker 1: we're observing. Right. That's kind of what you're exploring here.

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Speaker 1: But the story really takes a turn at the point

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Speaker 1: where we left off a little while ago there when

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Speaker 1: we're getting into the concept of digging into some one's brain,

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Speaker 1: putting someone back into a fugue like state, and digging

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Speaker 1: through their brain to pull out new information that hasn't

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Speaker 1: been stated as a memory. Right. Yeah, That's that's why

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Speaker 1: I would ask you specifically, Toby, um, do you think that,

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Speaker 1: uh say, hypnotic regression might help solve this long standing

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Speaker 1: and disagreement about what you saw? I would it would

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Speaker 1: be interesting to find out I uh my sense is

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Speaker 1: having uh talked to a lot of people about hypnotic

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Speaker 1: regression at this point is that we would probably probably

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Speaker 1: I'll tell the exact same stories. It's your your recall

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Speaker 1: through hypnotic regression is it's it's making it's made with

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Speaker 1: the same sort of fallible things that you're conscious memory

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Speaker 1: is made of, you know, when you're when you're thinking

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Speaker 1: about things. So it's it's taking the same basic elements

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Speaker 1: but just in sort of a different state of consciousness

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Speaker 1: to recreate them. And I didn't want to, Uh, apologies

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Speaker 1: if I'm derailing the conversation here, guys, but I do

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Speaker 1: mean it as, let's say, um six joking with you

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Speaker 1: and well what if, because that's, uh, that's exactly what

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Speaker 1: you're setting up, Matt, right, like the the idea that

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Speaker 1: the Hills eventually, um and I think we we have

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a of a time gap there,

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Speaker 1: but eventually, Uh. How inspired in part by Betty's dream journal,

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Speaker 1: inspired of course by these unusual events, they they also

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Speaker 1: uh turned to hypnosis. Right, is it hypnotic regression specifically

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Speaker 1: or just I'm not a hypnotist. I don't know the difference.

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Speaker 1: So Barney had already had um some anxiety issues and uh,

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Speaker 1: I believe it's already seeing a therapists. But regardless of

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Speaker 1: whether he was before or not, he does end up

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Speaker 1: seeing a therapist, but they're not really talking about alien stuff.

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Speaker 1: They're talking about other issues his life. But he does

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Speaker 1: bring up this this thing that happened um and his

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Speaker 1: therapist recommends that you go down and see a psychiatrist.

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Speaker 1: He uses hypnosis whose name is Dr Benjamin Simon, who's

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Speaker 1: very well known for working with returning soldiers who had PTSD.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't known as PTSC at the time, but but

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Speaker 1: that's what it was. So they go down there and

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Speaker 1: and they do regression hypnosis. So what he does is

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Speaker 1: he says, you know, cast yourself back to this date,

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Speaker 1: tell me what happened. And so they start to go

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Speaker 1: through this story, and he starts them off in Montreal

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Speaker 1: and going on the different steps of the journey. But

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Speaker 1: what they what they find is that after this buzzing

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Speaker 1: noise that I talked about, after they have this uh

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Speaker 1: sort of intense experience with the UFO in the field,

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Speaker 1: they both tell sort of versions from their own viewpoints

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Speaker 1: of the same story of their driving down the highways

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Speaker 1: Route three. They take a turn off for some reason,

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Speaker 1: they don't really know why. They take another turn onto

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Speaker 1: a dirt road where they're stopped by six figures in

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Speaker 1: the road and they see this glowing light behind them,

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Speaker 1: and you know, they're they're not quite clear what's going on.

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Speaker 1: But Barney turns off the car and then can't turn

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Speaker 1: it back on again, and the figures break into two

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Speaker 1: groups come and take them from their car and bring

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Speaker 1: them on to a bring them through the woods and

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Speaker 1: onto a spacecraft. Yeah, they they get on a spacecraft

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Speaker 1: and don't they don't the people talk to them while

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Speaker 1: they're being pulled out like it's it's interesting in that.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things that comes out of all

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Speaker 1: this is Betty has this very detailed, uh story about

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Speaker 1: this whole thing. Barney has a much less detailed story,

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Speaker 1: and they both sort of agree that that he was

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Speaker 1: sort of put under the alien control and then he

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Speaker 1: had his eyes closed and it was very scared. She,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, um, you know, ends up talking

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Speaker 1: to them, um, and there was one who speaks English

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Speaker 1: with an English accent, she says, sort of a foreign

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Speaker 1: English accent, and he's sort of trying to reassure her

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Speaker 1: that it's gonna be fine, We're just gonna take you

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Speaker 1: aboard the spaceship. You don't have to worry, and then

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Speaker 1: we'll bring you back and no harm will come of you.

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Speaker 1: And you know, she's wary, as I think anybody would

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Speaker 1: be about being brought onto an alien spacecraft. But they do.

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Speaker 1: They bring them aboard, and they separate them into different

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Speaker 1: rooms and uh they undergo you know, medical uh, medical

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Speaker 1: examinations at the hands of a alien who they call

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Speaker 1: the physician, um. And he doesn't speak English either. There's

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Speaker 1: there's the leader who speaks English, the physician who does

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Speaker 1: the medical exams, and then there's a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: you know, six or seven sort of crew members or

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Speaker 1: whatever who speak amongst each other, but not in English

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Speaker 1: or any language that you know a human would understand.

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Speaker 1: Now you mentioned, you know, the divide that is obviously

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Speaker 1: even in in listeners to the show, and even between

428
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 1: the three of us between you know, belief and skepticism um.

429
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: And you know some people can kind of their grades

430
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 1: of that obviously, and you can change over over the

431
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: course of your life. Have you found that this research

432
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: and and looking into the story and going deeper has

433
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: changed you a little bit in terms of your belief

434
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 1: or or made you more skeptical. Um. That that's a

435
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: really interesting question. I feel as though I've become more

436
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: skeptical of my own memories of things that seem that

437
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: seemed real. UM. And I can kind of give you

438
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: a quick example. I my my sister has a story

439
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: up at that same island place where when she was young,

440
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: you know, three or four, opening the door from our

441
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: kitchen to the outside and seeing him raccoon hanging from

442
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: a screen and freaking out and then having nobody believe her.

443
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: And I have this absolutely crystal clear memory of being

444
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: in the kitchen when that happened, in her opening the

445
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: door and looking and seeing her back and then seeing

446
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: the raccoon hanging from the screen. But it seems that

447
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: that almost certainly did not happen. It seems that she

448
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: told me that story, and I, you know, I was

449
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,239
Speaker 1: able to picture it in my head so clearly that

450
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 1: now it seems like this absolutely concrete memory that oh yeah,

451
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 1: I was there when my sister opened the door and

452
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 1: saw the raccoon. But based on her memory of it, like,

453
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: we both can't be right, and I'm pretty sure she's

454
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: probably the one who is And I just imagine that

455
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 1: happening so much. Uh, So that's really been you know,

456
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: more than I would have expected myself too. I've really

457
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,959
Speaker 1: taken a look at things that have happened in the

458
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: past that I feel as though I remember pretty well

459
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: but don't necessarily feel consistent with with other pieces of reality, um,

460
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: and then sort of questioning if my memory of that

461
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: is accurate. So that that's really been you know, it's

462
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: been kind of an eye opener, quite honestly. And then

463
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: when you apply it to the other part of my

464
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,479
Speaker 1: other podcasting stuff, which is about you know, true crime,

465
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: and you think about you know, people going in front

466
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: of going on trial and having these witnesses with these

467
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: people's lives in their hands, and just knowing that their

468
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: memories are probably not as accurate as they think they are.

469
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: Is Uh, it's sobering. We talked about this all the time,

470
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: and you know, we've all worked on true crime shows

471
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: as well. How eyewitness accounts are typically just awful. They're

472
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: the worst kinds, but they can absolutely convict somebody or

473
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: if you point somebody out in a lineup. And then

474
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: we've seen you know, experiments where people um don't remember

475
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: faces or they kind of twist it to fit their

476
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: own narrative, or maybe they really want someone to go

477
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: down for something and so they convinced themselves that that's

478
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: the guy that did this or whatever. I mean, it's

479
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: really fascinating the way we're able to almost delude ourselves,

480
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: Like your raccoon story is a form of that. It's

481
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: it's less conscious, but you basically invented a narrative by

482
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: believing something so much that you created this image in

483
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: your mind that seemed very very real, but now you've

484
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: accepted Okay, I think that was just It sort of

485
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: speaks to the power of belief, really, and how we're

486
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: able to kind of fool ourselves and trick ourselves into

487
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: thinking that things are are happening or real when they're

488
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: absolutely not. We'll be back with more from Toby Ball

489
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsor and we're back, so

490
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: would have follow up with a question here to me,

491
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: one thing that's fascinating about the raccoon story is, Toby,

492
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: have you ever heard of something called the Mandela effect?

493
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,959
Speaker 1: I don't think so. So. Uh, maybe fifty years from

494
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: now you and I will look back and think that

495
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: we both did remember it because it's a it's it's

496
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: this fascinating concept that's very close to what what we're

497
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: talking about today. Um where in people can become convinced

498
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: in a group that something has happened and it didn't occur.

499
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: It's named the Mandela effect because the person who named

500
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: it they were in a group of people who were

501
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: certain that they knew um Nelson Mandela had or had

502
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: not died and exactly when that happened, and they were

503
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: so surprised that this was not the case at least

504
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: in their current timeline, that instead of just saying, well,

505
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: maybe we were wrong about it, they've doubled down and

506
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: said maybe they're having a memory from a different timeline.

507
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: The stupidest version of that is that there's a whole

508
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: contingent of people that believe Shaquille O'Neill played a genie

509
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: named Shazam in a movie, but it was actually Kazam

510
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: I think was the name of the movie that I'm

511
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: mistaken and it wasn't Shaquila no Sinbad, but it was

512
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: actually Shaquille O'Neil And correct me on that one, Ben,

513
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: But that's my favorite example of this. There's another one

514
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: with the Barren Steain Bears versus the Baron Stain Bears.

515
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: So many people believe it's spelled st e i N

516
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: and in their minds that's like just that's all it's

517
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: ever been. It's always been the Barren Steain Bears, but

518
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: it's actually the Barren Stain Bears. It's interesting. I was

519
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: actually tripped up on that one a few years ago.

520
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: Somebody pointed that out to me. We did a whole

521
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: episode on it, and I don't think we've ever had

522
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: more feedback episode besides maybe the what the sleep paralysis episode?

523
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: Maybe Ben, I think maybe we got right right, Matt,

524
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: sleep paralysis is It's interesting because both the Mandela effect,

525
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: the what I've always called like the treachery of memory,

526
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: and sleep paralysis, uh, the situation wherein people experience vivid things,

527
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: often nightmares, or the sensation that they are not in

528
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: control of their body while they attempt to slumber. Those

529
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: both could relate, in a way, however, indirectly to the

530
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: case of Barney and Betty Hill. More skeptical people in

531
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: the audience, for instance, might say that, uh, perhaps Betty

532
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: was experiencing some form of sleep paralysis in her dreams.

533
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: But what we like Toby The question about the dreams

534
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: is fascinating to me because there are a whole other world.

535
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: What did Betty just have like a short run of

536
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: bad dreams or where they recurring dreams? Did they change?

537
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: What do we know about her dreams? So it's interesting

538
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: she actually wrote them down in a document called Dreams

539
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,719
Speaker 1: or Recall, So she was already kind of thinking about,

540
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: you know, is this dreams or is this actual memories

541
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: of something that happened that that's been repressed. And so

542
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: what she said is she does she doesn't dream them

543
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: in sort of chronicle order, of chronological order of of

544
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: the way they happened. She dreams them sort of out

545
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: of order, and then she puts them into order in

546
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: this document. And and so they kind of stitched together,

547
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: but they don't follow one after the other. They kind

548
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: of bounce around a little bit. And I don't know,

549
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: like I haven't come up with anything that goes into

550
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: any more detail on on how that all worked. You

551
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: basically just get you know, this is my compiling these

552
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: five dreams in a way that sort of makes narrative

553
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,959
Speaker 1: sense going forward. And and so it's this, you know,

554
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: it's this I imagine quite distressing a series of dreams

555
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: again about being aboard of spacecraft and and being under

556
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: the control of alien visitors and having them, you know,

557
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: examine you and and really you know, you're you're sort

558
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:16,439
Speaker 1: of powerless in the face of their technology, and they

559
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: also seem to have some kind of physical control over

560
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: you even if they're not holding on. It's interesting how

561
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: that scenario always is kind of the trope of alien abductions.

562
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: Like I kind of wonder what the first one that

563
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 1: was ever reported was you happen to know anything about

564
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: the history of this scenario of being you know, probed

565
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: or examined, like it didn't just come out of nowhere,

566
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: you know, like whether even if it's made up, is

567
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: somebody made it up first. I'm I'm fascinated by how

568
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: this is a repeating story we see all the time

569
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: with these abduction um remembrances. I guess so. I think

570
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: that's one of the interesting thing about this case is

571
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: that there really wasn't anything quite like it beforehand, and

572
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 1: this sort of sets the narrative going forward, you know,

573
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: And and so post abduction cases that follow are are

574
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: playing off this to a certain extent, and and you know,

575
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: it's like anything else where it escalates and escalates and escalates,

576
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: and then you end up in the eighties and nineties

577
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: with you know, people being de materialized through walls and

578
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know, tens or hundreds of thousands

579
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: of people being abducted. But before Betty and Barney Hill,

580
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 1: there's really only one case that was not well known

581
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 1: at the time, and it took place in Brazil, and

582
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: it was this guy named Antonio Villis Bois who was

583
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: abducted and brought on a UFO and and sort of

584
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 1: a little twist on this has a a sort of sexual,

585
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 1: uh sexual encounter with a alien like this small female

586
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 1: alien with bright red hair who you know, screams like

587
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: an animal and rubs her belly and points up to

588
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: the stars. And he takes it to mean she's gonna

589
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: take their baby back to her home planet, I guess,

590
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: to raise him or whatever. This hadn't really made it

591
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 1: to uh, the US unless you were like a real

592
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: UFO aficionado, So so not Betty and Barney. Um. And

593
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: I think there is a question that that hasn't been

594
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: answered about why this sort of medical exam. In particular,

595
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 1: she talks about having a needle plunged into her navel

596
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: with the idea that it has something to do with

597
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: reproduction or pregnancy. Different people have different I think hypotheses,

598
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 1: and I think you can kind of, you know, guess

599
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,919
Speaker 1: what they are about why they would why she would

600
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: be sort of fixated on that in particular. But I

601
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't, I mean, nobody's I haven't read

602
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: anything where people are like, this is why these two

603
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: people in particular would be this concerned about, you know,

604
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 1: sexual matters when you're on on board a space ship.

605
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: So that's just a really good question, and I'm not

606
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 1: sure what the answer is. There's something deeper. I want

607
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: to get into that and try and tie it back

608
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: to their work in the civil rights movement and like

609
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: try and compare or somehow find a way to compare that.

610
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: But before we do that, we're talking about the how

611
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: influential this story was from the you know, the abduction experience,

612
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: what actually happens when you're abducted, but also the the

613
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: extra supposed extraterrestrials that did the abducting there, the descriptions

614
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: of them changed quite a bit right over the course

615
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: of the all the stories from Betty and Barney. Yeah, yeah, um.

616
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: So when it first happened, immediately following their sighting on

617
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: on septembe they describe seeing, you know, basically humans looking

618
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: back at them, humans who are wearing uniforms, um who

619
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: are in caps, some of them. And so that's about

620
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: what you get up until the point where they undergo hypnosis.

621
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: And then there's a slight change, and part of it

622
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:16,439
Speaker 1: is under hypnosis. Um. You know, when Barney's describing being

623
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: in the in the field and looking at these beings

624
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: looking back at him, he describes two of these beings.

625
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: One he describes as looking like an irishman um And

626
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: he worked in Boston, and as an African American, it

627
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: was very clear that he saw Irish as being sort

628
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: of agents of racial animosity. Uh So this is like

629
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: a stressful image to him. The other one he describes

630
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: as a Nazi. So again it's this sort of a

631
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: figure that would cause him anxiety. Um. And he actually

632
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: talks in radio interviews about how he didn't feel that

633
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: they were sinister, but that the situation in itself was sinister.

634
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: But the way he describes them, certainly to me, sort

635
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: of indicates that at some level he thought it was

636
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: they were sinister. But this changes when they go aboard

637
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: the UFO and he he talks about you know, basically

638
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: you know what you would think of as a gray

639
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: or sort of like a proto gray of like you know,

640
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 1: the slit mouth and the very small nose or almost

641
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: non existent nose, and uh, you know, the big eyes.

642
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: And he even goes he has this very weird thing

643
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: about there being a film over the mouth that makes

644
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: this kind of weird, you know, slurpy kind of noise. Uh,

645
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 1: and it's very you know, it would be an alarming

646
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: thing to open your eyes up to. Betty, on the

647
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: other hand, and her dreams, talks about them as little

648
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: guys with big noses like Jimmy duranti and people kind

649
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: of say, well, she heard what Barney's description was and

650
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: kind of changes her story a little bit too at

651
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: his uh not to mention the fact that you know,

652
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: people's reaction is is that it's like, oh, like Jimmy Durranty,

653
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: and you chuckle, like aliens look like Jimmy Durranty. How's

654
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: that happened? So they come out of this doing doing

655
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: all this hypnosis with this basic idea of sort of

656
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: what the aliens look like, and it's sort of on

657
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: the way to being what we think of now as

658
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: a typical alien. And they spend some time trying to

659
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: refine this, and they end up working with a New

660
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: Hampshire artists named David Baker in the late sixties, and

661
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 1: he's sketching drawings of of what Betty and Barney think

662
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: they look like. And they're getting back to him. They're like,

663
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: see sketches, and they'll get back and they'll they'll say,

664
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: you know, make these changes. This isn't this is the

665
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: stuff that was wrong, and then he'll get back with

666
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: a new um, a new sketch, and they actually, you know,

667
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 1: at the UNH Library, University of New Hampshire Library, they've

668
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: got the copies of these is um those sketches, and

669
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 1: they're they're really they're they're a little bit spooky, like

670
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 1: in all honesty, and they're just kind of hazy and

671
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: vague enough that they're very evocative of this idea that

672
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: you're kind of like trying to bring up a memory

673
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: um in a way that I thought was really kind

674
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 1: of cool and interesting. And the other the other piece

675
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: that they try to put together to sort of document

676
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: their memories of this is this strange little bust called Junior,

677
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: and it was something that Betty commissioned a woman named

678
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: Marjorie Fish, who plays a big part in the story

679
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: in another way, to create and it's it's like a

680
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: little bust of a gray, you know, like a primitive

681
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: version of a gray. And it's about the size of

682
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: a small human head. I've held it. It's got a

683
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: little hole in the back from where she knocked it

684
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: off pedestal during a talk she was giving in Cincinnati,

685
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 1: and it's it's just a very very odd thing, but

686
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: but it is. I mean, that's that's what she says

687
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: is the closest representation to what she saw during that

688
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: experience and that classic kind of gray alien image that

689
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 1: is just so ubiquitous and pop culture. Now this is

690
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: kind of the origin of that, Like this is really

691
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 1: where that kind of came into existence the story. Yeah,

692
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 1: so this is the first time I think it's been

693
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: put forward as being a um, you know, an actual alien,

694
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: like I saw an alien and that's what it looked like.

695
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: There's been uh people have tried to say where where

696
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: did they get this vision? And they point to a

697
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: there's an episode of The Outer Limits that ran just

698
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks before they started Hypnosis, and it

699
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: was called the Balerro Shield, and it's got this alien

700
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 1: in it that kind of looks like a gray y. Yeah.

701
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you the only way you can

702
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: really make it work is if you try and describe

703
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: it and then somebody hears it and then they draw

704
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: something that sort of looks a little bit like it.

705
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: You might come up with the gray, but it's not

706
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,879
Speaker 1: so close. And then I've actually heard Brian Dunning from

707
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: Skeptoid had heard from somebody that there was another Twilight

708
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 1: Zone episode that was about a year and a half

709
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: before that that was called um hocus Pocus and Frisbee. Uh,

710
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: that has another similar kind of I mean, this is

711
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: all this is stuff from like, you know, the early sixties.

712
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,720
Speaker 1: So the alien is basically a guy in a mask.

713
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 1: And I think in Hocus Focus on Frisbee, he's actually

714
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: wearing a suit while he's being an alien. Uh, And

715
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: it's it's all, it's kind of ridiculous, but it does

716
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: have the basic idea of big eyes, not much of

717
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: a nose, just a little slip for a mouth. So

718
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: for what it's worth, another fascinating detail that ends up

719
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: coming out of the hypnosis session sessions and the memories

720
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: then that are kind of brought back from the time

721
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: that Betty. I think it is particularly Betty when the

722
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: time that she supposedly spent on this spacecraft UM was

723
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 1: that she saw some kind of dotted lights or lines

724
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: of light, which she interpreted to be I believe a

725
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: star map. Is that correct? Yeah? So while she's after

726
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: she gets her exam, uh, she apparently gets quite comfortable,

727
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: uh and starts having a conversation with this alien. She

728
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: calls the leader and she asked them, you know where

729
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: did where did you come from? And his response is

730
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: to sort of pull out this what they call a

731
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 1: star map UM and apparently isn't some ways a three

732
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: D type thing UM. Regardless, he pulls it out and

733
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 1: she says, well, which one is yours? And he says, well,

734
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 1: can you point out where your son is on on

735
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 1: this map? And she says now, and he says, well,

736
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: then it doesn't make any difference, right, like you know,

737
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: you can't orient yourself, so he puts it away. So

738
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 1: she tells this story under hypnosis and Dr Simon, uh,

739
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 1: the hypnotist. It's just intrigued by it and says, you know,

740
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: sometime when you're not hypnotized, if you if you want to,

741
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: why don't you draw that map that you saw? So

742
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: she draws the map later, and it's you know, I

743
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 1: think it's twenty one sort of circles of various sizes,

744
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: and some of them are connected by lines, and some

745
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: of them are connected by more than one line. And

746
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 1: so this is a star map. So this is supposed

747
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,439
Speaker 1: to be a rep exact replica of what she saw

748
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 1: on board. And what makes it the really interesting part

749
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 1: of the story is that this woman, Marjorie Fish, the

750
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: very same Marjorie Fish who did the bust of Junior

751
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: the alien. She looks at it and thinks, maybe I

752
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: can use that to determine where the aliens came from,

753
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: Like what's the what's the vantage point in the galaxy

754
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: from which this map was made. So this isn't the

755
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: pre you know, home computer age. So what she does

756
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: is she gets uh the latest information on stars and

757
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: their distance from the Earth and each other um and

758
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: she makes these really really elaborate models of the near

759
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: galaxy in her living room. And what she does is

760
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: she puts, you know, black paper or fabric around the walls,

761
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: and then from the ceiling she hangs beads from thread

762
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: and it's all done with these like super exact measurements

763
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 1: to get them as close as possible to exactly where

764
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: they would be in space based on what we knew.

765
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 1: Then you know this is you know, this takes place

766
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 1: over a course of years, and I think she does

767
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: twenty or twenty one different models. And then she takes

768
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: a camera and she's taking pictures from different angles, right,

769
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: so she's trying to get it to match, get a

770
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: picture that will match the star map. And so she

771
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: gets to a point it's very you know, as you

772
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: can imagine, it's very detailed, exacting, frustrating work. She can't

773
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: find a match. And then um, this new uh astronomy

774
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: catalog sort of the astronomy Bible at the time comes

775
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 1: out and it's identified a few new stars and there's

776
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 1: three stars that when she adds them to one of

777
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: her models, it fits the star map. Um, and then

778
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: so you know what, what's her proponents of the Hills

779
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 1: story say, is you know that Matt wouldn't have existed,

780
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 1: as humans couldn't have made that map with what they

781
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: knew at the time that she drew it, like you

782
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: had to have had advanced understanding of the location of

783
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 1: different stars in order to create that map. Um. So yeah,

784
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: she she identified they're sort of uh stars of origin

785
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: as Zeta Reticuli, which is a a binary star system,

786
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: which she thought could sustain a planet that could have life.

787
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 1: So it's a really you know, uh, completely sort of

788
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: obsessive quest to uh find a match in something that

789
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 1: would be really daunting today with computers, but back then

790
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: when you're just like literally, hey, beads from a ceiling. Uh,

791
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable. And the pictures there's no pictures on the internet, um,

792
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 1: but there are, or at least that I could find.

793
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: But they do have a lot of those pictures at

794
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: the University of New Hampshire Special Collections and I've I've

795
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: checked them out. Um, and it's it's really it's quite something.

796
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: It's interesting because it reminds me of the old, uh

797
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 1: the older story of the Dogon tribe that um, I

798
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: think this was actually after the Betting Barney hillcase. You

799
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but the Dogon

800
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: tribe had a similar experience being able to um name

801
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: stars or star system, a serious system that was, according

802
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: to the tail uh, something that human technology was not

803
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: at the time able to view. UH. And it's strange

804
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: to me because, you know, like someone else pointed out earlier,

805
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 1: we're seeing tropes there. And now that we know this

806
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,399
Speaker 1: story for the dogon and may have happened or come

807
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: to attention after the Betty and Barney Hill story, we

808
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 1: have to we have to ask ourselves just how profoundly

809
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: the experience of these folks has has informed UFO of

810
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: folklore UFO um I. I don't even want to say tropes,

811
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 1: but you know, has informed the commonalities that people say

812
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: they experience. When you're in the course of your research

813
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: here uh and you're you're finding all these exclusive materials

814
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 1: that are, as you said, uh, not available on the

815
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 1: internet or not widely available. Have you run into other

816
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: people researching this story, or if you had anybody, um,

817
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 1: anybody contact you with some kind of exclusive or some

818
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 1: kind of what they feel is an insight. I guess

819
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: what I'm asking, Toby is have you had other people

820
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: who feel they've experienced an abduction reach out to you? Uh?

821
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: Not yet. I feel so that may come at some

822
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: point in the future as we as strange arrivals kind

823
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: of continues on. UM, yeah, I haven't. It's the Betty

824
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: and Barney Hill archives are as you imagine, the most

825
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 1: sort of viewed things that they have at the University

826
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: of New Hampshire. There's a big UFO conference in Exeter,

827
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: New Hampshire, which is about twenty minutes away. Uh So

828
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: during that sort of week slash weekend, a lot of

829
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: people come in and if only to see like the

830
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: Junior bus store Betty's torn dress which is also there.

831
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 1: Um is sort of a pilgrimage. Um. But yeah, I haven't.

832
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: I haven't anybody reach out to me yet, but I'll

833
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 1: keep you in the loop if I do. Please do

834
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: because towards the end of this episode, we're going to

835
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: tell people where to find you, which is actually, guys,

836
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: what we're about to do now. UM, really quickly, if

837
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 1: you do want to check out the special collections at

838
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,959
Speaker 1: the University of New Hampshire, if you cannot physically go there,

839
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,720
Speaker 1: you can go to Library dot U n H dot

840
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 1: e D. You just do a little search within there

841
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: for Betty and Barney Hill and you'll see the special

842
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: collections that they have. Um, they've really it's it's really

843
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: just kind of a list of the materials that are

844
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: available there and like which box they're in and where

845
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: you can find them if you're physically there. But it's

846
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: a great list of things as well as just some

847
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 1: overall information about the the the case. I actually I

848
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: believe they're going to be digitizing make you some of

849
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:46,760
Speaker 1: it available digitally over the next few months. So depending

850
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: on how quickly people are listening to this, there may

851
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: be more stuff there. At the very bottom of the

852
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,919
Speaker 1: page of that Special Collection of Betty Barney Hill, there

853
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 1: is a picture of the alien bust if you want

854
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: to go and see what that looks like. So if

855
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: you want to do that, you know, if you want

856
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: to learn more about this story, then just listen to

857
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals. That would be my recommendation. Uh. We kind

858
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 1: of talked about the experience, the sonic experience you're gonna

859
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: get in that show. Um, we really think it's worth

860
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 1: your time. It feels like you're there. There's like some

861
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: recreations that have been done correct Toby where it makes

862
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: you feel like you're with Betty and Barney, Um, and

863
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: you're aren't there, actual isn't there actual hypnosis tape in

864
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: the show too. Yeah, there's a couple in a couple

865
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: of instances, we do have the actual hypnosis tape um

866
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 1: that we play. Uh, there's part where Betty's talking about

867
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 1: being taken from the car and being brought aboard the ship,

868
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:50,359
Speaker 1: um Barney experiencing uh the UFO in the in the

869
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 1: in the field. Wow. Yeah, So if you want to

870
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 1: do that? What should what should people do to find you?

871
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: And Strange arrivals Toby, So, Strange arrivals, uh, you know,

872
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 1: should be available on whatever podcast app you use. Uh,

873
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 1: if you want to, uh, get in touch with me,

874
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at Toby Ball and h and my

875
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,879
Speaker 1: website is Toby ball dot com. Awesome. Well, hey, thank

876
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us and talking about this

877
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: really really interesting case. I'm glad that you're making the

878
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: show you're making because I want to know more and

879
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of us do. Agreed. Agreed, And

880
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: also thanks for the solid Outer limits and twilight zone

881
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:34,399
Speaker 1: rex in this episode. And if you can, I don't

882
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 1: even can see my background, but I changed it to

883
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: the h hocus Pocus and Frisbee alien kind of scheme.

884
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:43,399
Speaker 1: Mask looking dude but he really does have the two

885
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:47,240
Speaker 1: kind of almond shaped eyes and the two little nostrils. Actually,

886
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 1: now I'm noticing which I think is a pretty key

887
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: part of the gray face facial structure. So I'm actually

888
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: kind of on board with this having been an influence

889
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 1: for for those descriptions now that I'm looking at it. Yeah,

890
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 1: you check it out online. Uh you can, if you

891
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 1: put into Google that they've got pictures of edits. You

892
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 1: know it's getting there. It's getting there, and we are

893
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 1: getting to the end of today's episode. Please check out

894
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals. Don't take our word for it, experience it

895
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:23,240
Speaker 1: yourself wherever podcasts are available. We also like to hear

896
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 1: your stories about allegations of extraterrestrial activity at UFO Sightings.

897
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 1: You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. We

898
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 1: are conspiracy stuff on most of those conspiracy stuff show

899
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 1: on Instagram. If you don't want to use the social media,

900
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: because come on, we all know what happens with the

901
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: social media. We joke about it all the time, and

902
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 1: our n s a intern definitely you know, appreciates these jokes,

903
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 1: I'm sure every week. But if you want to give

904
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: us a call, we are one eight three three st

905
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: d w y t K. You can leave a message,

906
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: talk to us about this episode, about an idea you've

907
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 1: got for an upcoming episode, anything you want to do,

908
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 1: just give us a call and leave a message. And

909
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: if you don't want to do any of that, you

910
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 1: can always send us a good old fashioned email. We

911
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: are conspiracy at i heeart radio dot com. Stuff they

912
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: don't want you to know is a production of I

913
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit

914
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

915
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:42,760
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.