1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: At five am. My two sons who are on the 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: phone to me and said, get out, get out. We 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: are afraid he is going to kill you. This is 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: a huge secret. He is not going to want anyone 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: to know. You are in danger. Don't take anything, just 6 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: get out. 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about 8 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that 9 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:45,639 Speaker 2: change everything. This is part two of Stephanie's story. If 10 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 2: you haven't heard part one, you should go back and 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 2: listen to that first. Stephanie had been living a suburban 12 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: dream life with her husband of twenty two years. We're 13 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: calling him Greg, but that's not his real name. The 14 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 2: couple successfully raised six children, they built a business together, 15 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 2: and were looking forward to their next chapter, retirement. But 16 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 2: everything changed the day she found photos of her own 17 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 2: nude body on his computer. Disgusting, violating photos, photos that 18 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 2: made her suspect her husband had been secretly drugging her 19 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: for years. In a flat, unapologetic tone, he told her 20 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 2: how he used the photos. 21 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: He explained, he puts the picture up in a chat room, 22 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: and twenty five people at a time can be in 23 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 1: the chatroom, but people come and go as they come 24 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: in and out. These other men are then explaining what 25 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: they would do to me, how they would rape me. 26 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 2: Remember the caption that was under the photo of Stephanie, Well, 27 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 2: that was one of many, and they were written by 28 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: other men in the chat room with Greg. He confessed 29 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 2: to all of it. He actually encouraged the strangers on 30 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: the Internet to make violent comments about Stephanie in order 31 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: to fulfill his own fantasies. 32 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: This is a man that whenever we would go somewhere 33 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: in public, he would pull me in close and whisper 34 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: in my ear, you're the most beautiful woman here. He 35 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: was just sweet and kind and gentle and a sick pervert. 36 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 2: When she found that very first nude picture of her 37 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: on her husband's phone back in twenty sixteen, he got 38 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: on his knees and wept. He begged for her forgiveness, 39 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 2: and back then she forgave him. She believed him when 40 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 2: he said it was just a few pictures, just that 41 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: one time. 42 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: When I first found the pictures, it was August twenty sixteen, 43 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: and it was September when I forgave him. When I 44 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: found the Flicker account in twenty twenty one, it says 45 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: right across the top of it. He has been a 46 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: member since September of twenty sixteen. 47 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: All these years where she thought they were rebuilding trust, 48 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: he was living a double life. 49 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 1: So it was Sunday the eleventh when I found out 50 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: Monday morning, I've barricaded myself into the spare bedroom and 51 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: he knocks on the door and he's like, what time 52 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: are you coming into work? And I said, I'm not 53 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: coming into work today and I'm probably not ever coming again. 54 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:55,119 Speaker 1: He just wanted to go on like everything was fine. 55 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: Part Way through that day, he contacts me and he 56 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: says he's gotten hold of this Christian counselor that he knows. 57 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: And I knew a little bit about this guy Gregan. 58 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: His first wife had done marriage counseling with this same guy. 59 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: So he tells me they've gotten hold of this Christian 60 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: counselor and that this guy is willing to drop everything 61 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: and come over to our house and counsel with us 62 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: that night. Would I agree to that? 63 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: Stephanie knew her beliefs didn't align with this particular counselors, 64 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: but she was lost, her marriage, her life. It was 65 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 2: all unraveling. Perhaps meeting with the counselor would provide direction, 66 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: so she reluctantly agreed. 67 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: This guy came over and explained to me that it 68 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: was really my duty as a wife to not only 69 00:04:53,000 --> 00:05:01,239 Speaker 1: forgive him, but to help him overcome his problem. At 70 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: one point, he looked at him and said, you had 71 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: these same issues with your first wife, and you never 72 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: addressed him, and that's why you're here. Twenty five years later. 73 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 2: Greg wouldn't explain what happened with his first wife, but 74 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 2: Stephanie had heard enough to know that she wasn't the first. 75 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: Greg had done something like this in his last marriage, 76 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: and then he did it again with her. 77 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: I had not a clue, not a clue. I knew 78 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: I couldn't stay. This is not someone who's fixable. This 79 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: behavior has in some way been going on for thirty years. 80 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 2: The revelation that Greg had done this in his first 81 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: marriage showed Stephanie the depths of his deception. 82 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: It made me feel like he had been conning me 83 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 1: from day one, that the love that was so real 84 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: for me was always just a game for him. 85 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 2: So she turned to her sons. 86 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 1: I found out on the eleventh, and on the thirteenth, 87 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: I emailed my children and told them all of them 88 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: as a group what he had done. At five o'clock 89 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: the next morning, my two sons, who were on the 90 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: phone to me and said, get out, get out. We 91 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: are afraid he is going to kill you. This is 92 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: a huge secret. He is not going to want anyone 93 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: to know. You are in danger. Get out, don't take anything, 94 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: just get out right now. Mom. I had three friends 95 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: that I had been texting with since I found out, 96 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: and they also wanted me out and felt that I 97 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: was in danger of being killed. It definitely could have 98 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: been possible, and then nobody would know. You know, once 99 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: you've crossed the line to the point where you're drugging someone, 100 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: the line seems pretty pretty gray. So when I left, 101 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: I left with a double bag with a few clothing items, 102 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: my cat, and his laptop, and I ran for my life. 103 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: Her sons picked her up that day and she never 104 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: went back home. She ended up living with her kids 105 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 2: for the next few months as she reeled from the trauma. 106 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: I couldn't think. I couldn't function. I mean, the kids 107 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: had to like sit me down at the table and 108 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: force me to eat, and I just laid in bed 109 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: and cried on the I didn't just lose my husband. 110 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: I lost my job, I lost my home, I lost 111 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: my community, I lost trust, I lost safety. I really 112 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: had to start over from square one. 113 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: That process of starting over felt insurmountable. Stephanie was a 114 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 2: shell of herself. She had been violated by her own husband. 115 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 2: Could there be recourse? Legal recourse? 116 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: All the research that I've done says getting a conviction 117 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: against a husband for something he's done to a wife 118 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: probably not going to happen. And then there was this 119 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: we are in a really tiny town and Greg has 120 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: lived there since he was two years old. There's not 121 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: a soul in that town does not know him. He 122 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: is connected to every single person there. 123 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 2: In the where Stephanie and her husband lived, there was 124 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 2: not a paid police commissioner, but instead a volunteer police 125 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 2: commission made up of three people who are responsible for 126 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: the hiring, firing, disciplining, and the promotion of every officer 127 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 2: on the police force. Her husband had been on the 128 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 2: commission for years. Every single officer on the force owed 129 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 2: their job to Greg. So Stephanie was fearful of going 130 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 2: to the police. 131 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: I knew I wasn't ready to go to the police 132 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: at that point. That I was just in too much 133 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: terror and shock, and not to mention up until twenty nineteen, 134 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 1: it was legal in my state to rape your wife. 135 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 2: Understandably, Stephanie didn't trust the courts to be able to 136 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 2: bring her justice. She talked off the record with the 137 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 2: chief of police and the county attorney. They were hesitant. 138 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 2: They told her idding a conviction would be unlikely. Even 139 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 2: if Stephanie wanted to pursue criminal charges, she was in 140 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 2: a financial bind. 141 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: This was financially devastating. We lived on a lovely fix 142 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: figure income and had our house paid for. So I 143 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: have to weigh out if I prosecute him, He's probably 144 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: going to do little to no jail time. He's going 145 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: to lose his license, and then I lose my support, 146 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: and I'm not in a position to support myself at 147 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 1: fifty four years old. I had to completely start over. 148 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: I will never be financially able to own a home again. 149 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,959 Speaker 1: That was another grieving process in and of itself. 150 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: And it was also another betray a financial one. Stephanie 151 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 2: had spent years working hard to turn Greg's business around, 152 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: making it profitable, and now she was left without a job. 153 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: Just like that. Her vision of the future vanished so 154 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 2: many unknowns, But what Stephanie did know is that she 155 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 2: needed her husband to be able to financially support her 156 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 2: through the crisis he had caused. So for that reason, 157 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 2: she decided to move forward with a divorce, but not 158 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 2: with criminal charges. Instead, she decided to do an investigation 159 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: of her own. When she left Greg, she took his 160 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: laptop with her and she brought it straight to a 161 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 2: computer forensic specialist. 162 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: I told the investigator, I know you're not going to 163 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: find the photos on here. The photos were on the 164 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: Flicker account, so that's not what you're going to find. 165 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: But I want to know where he was, what he 166 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: was doing all of that, and the main thing I'm 167 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: looking for is any evidence that he drugged me because 168 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: I didn't agree to take those pictures and he went 169 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: to work. When I got the report back, they called 170 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: me to kind of go over it with me, and 171 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: they said, we found it. There's about two years worth 172 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: of every single click he made on that computer, and 173 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: the computer forensic specialist found evidence that he had searched 174 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: for state rape drugs. 175 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: When she started putting the pieces together, Stephanie remembered kN 176 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 2: kun all those difficult mornings where she felt like she 177 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 2: was waking up at the bottom of a lake. 178 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: Waking up shouldn't feel like that. Waking up doesn't normally 179 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: feel like it's a struggle to get to the light, 180 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: like it's a struggle to try to wake up. 181 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: And Greg had even been there, explaining that she'd probably 182 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 2: just had too much wine, that she sat in the 183 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 2: sun for too long. Worst of all, she suspected that 184 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: those long romantic dinners left her vulnerable. 185 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: Throughout the course of this two and a half hour dinner, 186 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: I would need to get up and go to the 187 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: ladies room, giving him an opportunity to be there with 188 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: my drink and put something in it. So nothing really original. 189 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's how most guys do it. 190 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 2: Stephanie is finding out that the man she built a 191 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 2: life with drugged her to take nude photos of her, 192 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: all while she's coming to terms but the reality that 193 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 2: he might never face any legal consequences for these crimes. 194 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: All of this was taking a heavy toll on her. 195 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: You know, when you go to the doctor for your 196 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: physical and they give you this little quiz about your 197 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: mental health and depression and things like that. I had 198 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: a sworn statement from my doctor of many years, saying 199 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: that year after year my score was zero. I was like, 200 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: I got no stress, nothing. I couldn't be happier after 201 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: this happened. Forty five is the most you can score. 202 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: I was forty three, super high risk. 203 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 2: She started walking through the world differently emotionally and physically. 204 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: It have changed my appearance. I had longish hair, and 205 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: I wore very feminine clothing. In the days following finding out, 206 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: I cut off all my hair and I continue to 207 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: wear my hair short and I wear very plain, baggy, 208 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: nondescript clothing. 209 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: She found a therapist and she started seeing them twice 210 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 2: a week, but especially in the beginning, it wasn't enough. 211 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 2: She was desperate for more support. 212 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: When I first left him. Within the first few weeks, 213 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: I reached out to a mental health suicide hotline. 214 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 2: She relied on all the resources available. One day, about 215 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 2: a year after she found the photos, it all became 216 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 2: too much for her to handle. And as a forewarning, 217 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: we're about to discuss suicide. 218 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: On that particular day, we had divorce mediation. We had 219 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: had a previous mediation where we divided out our assets. 220 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: Our twenty five years of marriage was put on a 221 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: balance sheet and you each get half. This was actually 222 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: now the third mediation and it was on Zoom, and 223 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: I was very frustrated with my attorney. I kept saying 224 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: to her, I need him to support me. I can't 225 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: even function. I can't get a job, I can't go 226 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: out in public. I can't function. He has to support me. 227 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: He did this. She just kept telling me things like, 228 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: you know, what he did to you just doesn't matter 229 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: in divorce law. Well it does because I can't work. 230 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: So we had this mediation and the mediator was just 231 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: very dismissive with me. By the time that we had 232 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: done our four hours of mediation, I sobbed for a 233 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: while and realized, I'm done. There's no out of this situation, 234 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: there's no future, there's no hope. He wins. I'm done. 235 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: I had been prescribed at a van for panic attacks 236 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: because if I tried to go out in public, I 237 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 1: would have a panic attack. So I took a handful 238 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: of adavan and washed it down with a bottle of wine, 239 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: and I broke the wine glass, shattered it, and then 240 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: used the glass shards to cut my wrist open. 241 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 2: Thankfully, she survived. Her sons found her and brought her 242 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: to the hospital, where she recovered again. She leaned on 243 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: them for help. 244 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: After the suicide attempt. I got out of the hospital, 245 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: I had to go back and stay with my kids 246 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: again for a while. And my attorney just keep saying, 247 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: you don't have any rights here. What he did doesn't matter. 248 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 2: Her sons were fed up. 249 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: They're like, let's find a new attorney. I got a 250 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: fantastic guy who worked his ass off for me. The 251 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: new attorney was like, oh, hell yeah, it matters. He 252 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: damaged your mental health. Of course that matters, and we'll 253 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 1: make the judge see it. 254 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 2: Finally, two years after Stephanie found the photo, her divorce 255 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 2: trial began. 256 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: I don't know anyone else who at a situation so 257 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: contentious that they had to go to trial for their divorce. 258 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: We had a two day trial. Him being held accountable 259 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: for what he did did more for my mental health 260 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: than all the therapy and support groups. And I mean 261 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: all of those things have been great, and I don't 262 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: want to discount those in any way, but having him 263 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: held accountable gave me back my power. 264 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 2: She rose to the occasion. Stephanie wanted to be there 265 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 2: to testify herself. 266 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: I did the bulk of the testifying as to not 267 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: only what he did to me, but also to our finances, 268 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: because he would not provide any financial information and just 269 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: kept saying that his computer crashed, didn't have any records, 270 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: can't provide anything. 271 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 2: The judge didn't buy it. 272 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: The judge said, there's a legal thing called a negative inference. 273 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: If you failed to provide what they are asking for, 274 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: or you choose not to answer the question, you take 275 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: the fifth, which he also did on his testimony. He 276 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: took the fifth about what he did to me. It 277 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: was all considered a negative inference because then the judge says, clearly, 278 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: you're keeping this information because it will look bad for you. 279 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: There was some vindication, and that came from hearing expert 280 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 2: witnesses confirm what you already knew. 281 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: The computer forensic specialist, his testimony was incredibly damning. He 282 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: testified that there is one hundred percent absolute certainty the 283 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: person who posted these pictures on the internet is my husband. 284 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: He couldn't, you know, back out of it and say, well, 285 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: I didn't do that. She did making this up. 286 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 2: After the trial ended, the judge took ninety days to 287 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: give his ruling, waiting for that ruling was the longest 288 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 2: summer of Stephanie's life. 289 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: The judge's ruling says, he finds that it is a 290 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: fact that Greg drugged me, took pictures of me without 291 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,479 Speaker 1: my knowledge or consent, posted them on the internet, shared 292 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: them with other people, and as a result of that, 293 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: I was traumatized by those events. And because of the 294 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: trauma and the distress and the difficulty of me being 295 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: in public, it's not possible for me to work in 296 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: a full time way. And as such he has to 297 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: pay me x amount per month, which is a pittance 298 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: compared to the amount that we lived on. However, it's 299 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: more than double what he was ever willing to pay 300 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: me in mediation. 301 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 2: Stephanie felt victorious even just hearing the judge confirm that, yes, 302 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 2: this really happened. It is a fact that this happened 303 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 2: to her. Originally, Stephanie thought she had deleted all the photos, 304 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 2: but through her investigation, Stephanie found multiple accounts even more 305 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 2: photos of her photos that were still live. Even though 306 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 2: their case was settled, a divorce trial has limits. The 307 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: judge couldn't order Greg to take down the photos. Asking 308 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 2: him to do that would prove on the record that 309 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 2: he owned the account and would incriminate him. 310 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: The photos are still there. One remaining photo that I 311 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: know of is a picture of me in a bathtub. 312 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: He printed out the picture at some point and masturbated 313 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: on it, and then took a picture of that and 314 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: reposted it. The link is live. I can go look 315 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: at him right now. 316 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 2: Even if Greg took down the photos that are still 317 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: live on his accounts, it wouldn't completely erase them. 318 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: They're still out there because he gave them to other 319 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: people and he posted them on other sites. They're eternal, 320 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: they're forever. 321 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: Since the divorce, there haven't been any charges brought against Greg, 322 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 2: but he's had to face very real consequences with his family. 323 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: My four boys have no relationship with him at all anymore. 324 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: At one point, he sent letters to each one of 325 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: them asking for forgiveness. Three of the four boys threw 326 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: the letters away immediately, and one replied basically saying, there 327 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: is no forgiveness for you. You're a monster. Don't ever 328 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: contact me again. 329 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 2: The news about what Greg did to Stephanie spread like 330 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 2: wildfire in their small community. 331 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: When a well known prominent couple in the community, all 332 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: of a sudden, the wife disappears, and now this is 333 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: the second wife of his that's disappeared. Everybody knows. 334 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: It's had a big impact on his reputation. 335 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: On the stand, he testified that since I left, his 336 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: business has been hemorrhaging. People call every day and ask 337 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: for their files to be sent to another doctor. I 338 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: wonder why. 339 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: And that divorce decree from the judge, the one where 340 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 2: he finds Greg drug Stephanie took nude photos of her, 341 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 2: posted them on the internet and caused her great emotional harm. 342 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 2: That decree has been passed around the whole town. 343 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: Divorce decrees our public information. Anyone can download a copy, 344 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: so I heard a rumor that someone did just that 345 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: and then mailed out the copies to Greg's few remaining friends. 346 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 2: To be honest, I was surprised that he didn't move 347 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 2: somewhere else. But Stephanie has a theory about why he stays. 348 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: In his twisted mind, he's such a big fish in 349 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: that tiny little pond that he can't imagine going anywhere else. 350 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: They wouldn't know what a big deal he is. 351 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 2: Part of Stephanie's healing process, was trying to understand the 352 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 2: why why did this happen? To her and why do 353 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 2: people like her ex husband do what they do. 354 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: Are you familiar with doctor Omar Minwala? Have you heard 355 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: of him? 356 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: Doctor Minwala is a clinical sexologist and licensed psychologist. He's 357 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 2: the founder of the Institute for Sexual Health. His work 358 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 2: focuses on infidelity, compulsive sexual behavior, and sex addiction. Stephanie's 359 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: been reading his work and it's helping her make sense 360 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 2: of what happened. 361 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: With guys that do this kind of stuff. You know, 362 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 1: people say, oh, what happened to you when you were 363 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,959 Speaker 1: a child. You must have had trauma that made you 364 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: do this. He had an ideal childhood, and many of 365 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: my friends in the betrayal community would say the same 366 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: thing about their cheating, lying spouses. So doctor Manuila's premise 367 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: is that this is an act of entitlement. These men 368 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: do this because they believe that they deserve to have 369 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: whatever they want in life, including sexually. He calls this 370 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: secret life online a secret sexual basement. These men build 371 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: this secret sexual basement underneath their family and their marriage 372 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: and their home, and part of the high for them 373 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: is the secret that they're getting by with it. 374 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 2: She's found community with other people who've experienced traumatic deception, 375 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 2: but in most of the betrayal stories she's heard, there's 376 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 2: physical cheating. As far as Stephanie knows, Greg was never 377 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 2: cheating with another woman. 378 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 1: He did all of this, blew up our life, our kids' lives, 379 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: our friends' lives, our community. He did all of that 380 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: to jack off into his own hand. 381 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 2: Stephanie is trying to re enter a new world, a 382 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 2: world where people are not who they appear to be, 383 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 2: a world where anyone she meets could have been one 384 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 2: of those anonymous users in a chat room with her husband. 385 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: You know, every guy that looks at me, I think 386 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: you see those pictures. 387 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 2: Slowly but surely, she's putting her life back together. It's 388 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 2: a never ending task figuring out how to rebuild a 389 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 2: sense of safety after a portrayal of this magnitude. 390 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: I'm doing okay. I move around in the world a 391 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: little bit better. I am happy more often than not. 392 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: I rarely cry. I mean, for almost two years there 393 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: it was just man, I needed stock in the tissue 394 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: company because it was just endless. I had no idea 395 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: it was physically possible to cry that much. But I 396 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: can finally see that I'm okay. I'm proud of myself 397 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: that I lived through this. I still have plenty of 398 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: challenging moments and not good days, and I work hard 399 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: to find joy in my life, and when I find it, 400 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: I try to really lean in and enjoy it. 401 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 2: Stephanie is focusing on the new things that bring her joy, 402 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 2: like her rescue dog. 403 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: Being able to take my dog with me when I 404 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: go places really gives me a feeling of safety. 405 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 2: And she loves watching true crime documentaries. 406 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,959 Speaker 1: And to me, now, a rom com is a horror movie. 407 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: I couldn't watch that if you paid me. 408 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: Stephanie found work as a nanny. It's a job she 409 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 2: loves and it allows her to stay out of the public. 410 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: The nanny job comes with benefits package that is giggles, hugs, 411 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: and some pretty terrific drawings for my fridge. 412 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 2: She even has an appointment to get her first tattoo, 413 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 2: a sunflower. 414 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: You know a sunflower as that round heart in the 415 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: center and that it has all those pedals that go 416 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: around it and they're individual, but they're like on top 417 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: of each other, like a network that is just like 418 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: all of my people, my kids, all my friends, my 419 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: extended family, my attorney, my therapists, and all the beautiful 420 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: betrayed wives that I've connected with on this journey. They're 421 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: like those pedals. They encircle me with their support and 422 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: their kindness and their love, and the tattoo is going 423 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: to be a reminder of how grateful I am for 424 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: all of them. 425 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: I'm always curious about well compels people to reach out 426 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: to come on our podcast and talk about the traumatic 427 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 2: betrayals they've experienced. So at the end of each story, 428 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 2: I want every guest to share their why. Here's Stephanie's. 429 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: From the very moment that I found the pictures, I 430 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: knew that I was not willing to keep it a secret. 431 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: Secrets perpetuate abuse. I think it's important to get these 432 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: abusive things out in the open and to talk about 433 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,719 Speaker 1: them so that other people who are going through it 434 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: don't feel as isolated and alone as I did when 435 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: it happened to me. Every day when I do yoga, 436 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: I have a mantra that I will stand in my truth. 437 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: This is my truth. Since the trial, though that changed, 438 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: having that legal document that says he did that. Now, 439 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: when I do yoga, I say I am standing in 440 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: the truth, like it or not, I'm going to put 441 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: it out there. 442 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal, a woman's happy marriage 443 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 2: takes a terrifying turn when she finds out her husband 444 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 2: is a hitman for the cartel. 445 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: Our bedroom door gets busted down. Police are pointing guns 446 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: at both me and him, telling us put our hands up. 447 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal 448 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 2: team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email 449 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 2: us at Betrayal pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal 450 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 2: pod at gmail dot com. Also, please please be sure 451 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 2: to follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all 452 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 2: Betrayal content, news and updates. We're grateful for your support. 453 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 2: One way to show support is by subscribing to our 454 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 2: show on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and 455 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 2: review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A 456 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 2: big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is 457 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,959 Speaker 2: a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, 458 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 2: in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced 459 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 2: by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by 460 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 2: me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard. Also 461 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 2: produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Melcurie and 462 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 2: Grace Bollinger. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. 463 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Stephanie. Audio editing and mixing by Matt 464 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 2: del Vecchio. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains. Music library 465 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 2: provided by my Music. More podcasts from iHeart, visit the 466 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.