Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't think you never know what stories
Speaker 1: of things. We simply don't know the answer too well.
Speaker 1: Hi there, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Devin, I'm Steve, I'm Joe, and we're gonna definitely
Speaker 1: solve a mystery tonight. We are. Hell yeah, don't you
Speaker 1: think we're going to solve this one? You don't think
Speaker 1: the based on the name not so much. Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: sorry to be a naysayer, but I I got reservations tonight.
Speaker 1: That's fair. It's uh so we're doing this case. It's
Speaker 1: called Jane Doe to four five U F v A.
Speaker 1: It's a really sexy name, right yeah? Would you dress
Speaker 1: it up? Rolls off the tongue of parents would name
Speaker 1: their kids. So yeah, I mean, you know, let's just
Speaker 1: get into it. Our story starts on December eighteenth, six
Speaker 1: in the Pleasant Valley Memorial Park, which is a small
Speaker 1: cemetery in Annandale, Virginia. That's how you say that name, right,
Speaker 1: Annandale sounds just like um. The body of an unidentified
Speaker 1: woman is found in the part of the cemetery that's
Speaker 1: designated for children's graves. And now this is one of
Speaker 1: the things I heard this thing about about this cemetery,
Speaker 1: and I didn't know that cemeteries typically has segregated children's sections.
Speaker 1: I think smaller cemeteries often do this. Is it it's
Speaker 1: in a smaller town. Well, and isn't it the cemetery
Speaker 1: is old? Yeah, no, actually it's not. The cemetery itself
Speaker 1: is old. This area specifically where she was found was
Speaker 1: near more very recent grows. Okay, no, actually I did
Speaker 1: a little research on the cemetery. They've got a webpage. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they didn't start the cemetery. Oh that's all to me.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, yeah, but yeah it was it was
Speaker 1: somebody's estate. Apparently somebody looks, you know, some very wealthy
Speaker 1: person there and their stays sold to developers who created
Speaker 1: the cemetery. Right. I think in smaller places they often
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah. I don't know if they had in
Speaker 1: a naturally high rate of invent mortality there or anything
Speaker 1: like that they needed that. I don't really know why
Speaker 1: they had that area, but they did. They found two
Speaker 1: fifty bills, one was for the corner and one was
Speaker 1: for the cemetery. Cemetery, and they both had the note
Speaker 1: with them, A note with them that read deceased by
Speaker 1: own hand, prefer no autopsy, Please order cremation with funds provided,
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jane Doe. So, first off, that's a little weird.
Speaker 1: She signed Jane Doe doesn't want an autopsy, and really
Speaker 1: fifty dollars for cremation obviously created anybody for a long
Speaker 1: long time, it's has gone up, Yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 1: So all right, it's it's already a little bit weird.
Speaker 1: That's unusual. Right. So she had apparently taken some valium
Speaker 1: and consumed a sizeable amount of brandy. Her blood alcohol
Speaker 1: level was point one four. The yeah, so that's that's
Speaker 1: a lot of brandy, especially brandy. Let's be honest here,
Speaker 1: of the alcohols you think, oh, I could drink a
Speaker 1: lot of that brandy I believe or not some people
Speaker 1: like that stuff. Maybe I don't know. So in addition
Speaker 1: to the brandy that they found in the site, I
Speaker 1: think it was like near her hand or something. I
Speaker 1: don't it was unclear. It wasn't part of her knapsack findings.
Speaker 1: Um they found her knapsack and it had two empty
Speaker 1: juice bottles, a roll of masking tape, a Jeff Fox
Speaker 1: wherethy you might Be, a Redneck cassette, a Monty Python,
Speaker 1: and the Holy Grail cassette. She had a portable tape
Speaker 1: player and headphones um and the headphones were on her
Speaker 1: head over her ears, and she had been listening to
Speaker 1: recording comedians mel Brooks and Carl Reiner doing their two
Speaker 1: thousand year old man routine. Sir, is it true that
Speaker 1: you are two thousand years old? Boy? You are too.
Speaker 1: It's hard to believe, sir, because in the history of man,
Speaker 1: nobody's ever lived more than a hundred and sixty seven
Speaker 1: years as the man from Peru would claim to be.
Speaker 1: But you claim to be two thousands. Yes, I'll be.
Speaker 1: I'm not yet, I'll be two thousand October. She wanted
Speaker 1: to have a fun time. Yeah, this is it's kind
Speaker 1: of you know, they're all comedies. She seems to kind
Speaker 1: of be feeling trying to feel better about herself or something.
Speaker 1: So this is another like, uh, put off the thing
Speaker 1: about this case. So she had they found her. The
Speaker 1: headphones were on the tape presumably had been playing, but
Speaker 1: she'd killed herself by putting a plastic bag over her
Speaker 1: head over the headphones and taping it shut and suffocating
Speaker 1: herself while she listened to a comedy cassette tape. And
Speaker 1: this is this is a that's kind of a weird,
Speaker 1: difficult way to kill yourself. Yeah, I just thinking the
Speaker 1: same thing. Putting tape around your own neck can't be easy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree with that. I think that would be that hard.
Speaker 1: But but actually like just laying there and suffocating without
Speaker 1: tearing the bag after well, I think part of that
Speaker 1: is the valium and brandy, right. I think that probably
Speaker 1: helped a little bit. If she was just really really
Speaker 1: drunk and really high on valium, maybe she just fell
Speaker 1: asleep and just never woke up. But I this, this
Speaker 1: is one of the things that raises some red flags
Speaker 1: for people in this case partnered especially with the like
Speaker 1: very weird suicide note it comes along with it, and
Speaker 1: we'll get to this of course later. Next to her,
Speaker 1: there was a clear plastic sheet on the ground, and
Speaker 1: next to the sheet there was an eight inch Christmas
Speaker 1: tree that um was set up. It wasn't just like
Speaker 1: calling the ground, It was set up and it had
Speaker 1: gold balls and red ribbon. And they also found a
Speaker 1: poem written on a typewriter that read, now I lay
Speaker 1: me down to sleep soon to drift off to the
Speaker 1: eternal deep. And though I die and shall not wake, sleep,
Speaker 1: we'll sleep sweeter will be than this life I forsake.
Speaker 1: Weird which starts out like the now I lay me
Speaker 1: down to exactly keep And a Google search of this
Speaker 1: phrase yields no results except for things pertaining to this case.
Speaker 1: So she was kind of a pellet that maybe she
Speaker 1: made this up. Maybe yeah, and she had access to
Speaker 1: a typewriter well in in like rural Virginia. But that's
Speaker 1: maybe not so weird. Well, it's not weird, but when
Speaker 1: you think about it, I mean, she she didn't appear
Speaker 1: to be from around the area because nobody reported her
Speaker 1: missing from the immediate area. But nobody reported her missing
Speaker 1: from any area. She could have been reported missing from
Speaker 1: somewhere else, or and they just never tied the two together.
Speaker 1: Or maybe she was never reported missing. Yeah, and again
Speaker 1: we'll get yeah to more of that. But that's true.
Speaker 1: You know a typewriter or you know something. The deceased
Speaker 1: by own hand letter was also written on a typewriter.
Speaker 1: I guess it could have been a computer. I don't
Speaker 1: you know. I don't know. I would say if if
Speaker 1: it was done with a typewriter. They would specifically say
Speaker 1: a typewriter, because the typewriter leaves an impression in paper
Speaker 1: that a printer, even an old dot matrix printer, wouldn't
Speaker 1: be able to replicate. Yeah, they do, they specify. Some
Speaker 1: people specify, I should be clear. Some people specified that
Speaker 1: the now it lay me down to sleep was on
Speaker 1: a typewriter. Others don't. Nobody specifies about the deceased by
Speaker 1: own hand letter being typewritten or not, or handwritten or not.
Speaker 1: I saw some pictures of some of her personal effects,
Speaker 1: and it was a picture of the typewritten No no
Speaker 1: other down to sleep. I didn't see any picture the
Speaker 1: deceased by own hand, So I have no idea. Yeah
Speaker 1: I don't either. That's okay, it's already like a little weird.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about her clothes and jewelry, because it's
Speaker 1: also weird. At least I think it's weird. Let's have
Speaker 1: it all right. So, she was wearing a teal all
Speaker 1: weather Eddie Bauer hooded jacket which was sized medium. These
Speaker 1: are important, by the way, sized medium. She was wearing
Speaker 1: a navy blue sweater sized large red sweater, a red
Speaker 1: sweater sized extra large red sleeveless silk shirt sized petite large,
Speaker 1: a navy blue knit wool pants size large, black loafers
Speaker 1: sized medium. And all of those clothes are clothes that
Speaker 1: you would find it like an upscale kind of like
Speaker 1: Sacks Fifth Avenue is what they've been tossing around are.
Speaker 1: You might find them also a good will, because you'll
Speaker 1: find lots of new clothes at the good will. And
Speaker 1: the thing about the good will is you'll find something
Speaker 1: really cool that you like, but it's never in your
Speaker 1: size exactly. Yeah. Well yeah, And isn't it that all
Speaker 1: of them were you said they came from like Sax
Speaker 1: fifth alf or something, and they were all nicer brands. Yeah, really,
Speaker 1: all the same brand basically. Yeah, except for the Eddie
Speaker 1: Bauer jacket. Everything was kind of the same size. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: the same brand, got it? Got it? Okay? Um? But
Speaker 1: they're all weird sizes, you know. So that's something that
Speaker 1: piques a lot of people's interests Um And I know, Joe,
Speaker 1: you had expressed some interest in this that you Where
Speaker 1: do you get these things? You get them from the
Speaker 1: sack Smith Avenue, you get them firsthand, or you get
Speaker 1: them a goodwill? Right, People talk about the brand being
Speaker 1: indicative of her being more well off, but other people
Speaker 1: talk about maybe she just had a think for this
Speaker 1: brand and got them all at I never saw anything
Speaker 1: in the reading and the research that talked about the
Speaker 1: condition of the clothes. Did you ever come across anything
Speaker 1: like that, No, because that would be something to me.
Speaker 1: I would wonder if they're in really good condition, that
Speaker 1: would indicate she bought them new. If they weren't in
Speaker 1: the best of condition or a little threadbare in spots,
Speaker 1: that would say that she bought them at a second
Speaker 1: hand store. So I'm surprised that this has never come out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: although you know, I found stuff like a good will
Speaker 1: and stuff that looked almost new. So you find stuff
Speaker 1: there that somebody gets for the president. They buy it
Speaker 1: and they never wear and they finally get rid of it.
Speaker 1: That's true. It's entirely possible, but that's definitely true. So
Speaker 1: they also she also has some jewelry. There was a
Speaker 1: small gold watch that she was wearing as a guess watch,
Speaker 1: which isn't cheap. I mean, you know, it's not like
Speaker 1: the most luxurious, luxurious of brands, but those watches are
Speaker 1: like a couple hundred bucks usually well in especially Yeah,
Speaker 1: and a fourteen carrot gold ring that had four jade
Speaker 1: stones in it. Um. She also had a metal bead
Speaker 1: chain with a medic alert you know those medical tags
Speaker 1: or whatever. Uh, and it said no code DNR, no penicillin.
Speaker 1: So another thing that people are talking about, right, is
Speaker 1: that she's a Jane Doe. But often you can trace
Speaker 1: these things, these medicals, Yeah, do they actually it's numbered.
Speaker 1: They're not. You can order them from wherever you want,
Speaker 1: especially like when we're getting into the nineties. You just
Speaker 1: order like a dog tag with whatever on it. They're not.
Speaker 1: There's no medical issuance of these things. You might actually
Speaker 1: be able to find what the good will you probably,
Speaker 1: so you know, no, it is you could. You could
Speaker 1: get all these things at the good will probably, but
Speaker 1: you also might get them because you are well off
Speaker 1: and you like spending money. So this is another part
Speaker 1: of the mystery, right, is that either she's a well
Speaker 1: off older woman or she's like kind of a vagrant,
Speaker 1: transient kind of person who just got a bunch of
Speaker 1: stuff at the good will, including a typewriter, because including
Speaker 1: a we're exactly how exactly do you get access to
Speaker 1: a typewriter in paper to I don't think I do.
Speaker 1: Like to look on your face, I can see, Oh,
Speaker 1: I gotta go to the library. I haven't been there
Speaker 1: in a while. Yeah, I haven't seen a typewriter in
Speaker 1: a while. Be kind of cool to see one. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Well we do live in Portland, Oregon, so you so
Speaker 1: you know the other thing that really gets me about
Speaker 1: this case is that she's never been identified. They have
Speaker 1: her DNA on record, they have her fingerprints on record,
Speaker 1: they have her dental record. But you would think that
Speaker 1: somebody somewhere would have a record of this woman, right,
Speaker 1: especially with all that information, and it was the nineties.
Speaker 1: It's not like this is like the bad version of
Speaker 1: all those things from the fifties, right, Yeah, it's it's yeah,
Speaker 1: you would think that information be spread a little easier. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think about it is. It's like like, stay with
Speaker 1: their d N a m. You still have to find
Speaker 1: somebody that you know to match her too. Sure, but
Speaker 1: fingerprints though, right, your prints als was probably never arrest
Speaker 1: their fingerprinted. So that's a good point. They don't. I mean,
Speaker 1: people think in this day and age, we get fingerprinted
Speaker 1: more often than people did twenty years ago. You gotta
Speaker 1: go to the bank, you gotta give a fingerprint for
Speaker 1: certain checks or for jobs or for whatever. Where As
Speaker 1: before I think it was, like Joe said, if you
Speaker 1: were booked into the system for a variety of reasons,
Speaker 1: or if you had some high security clearance job, they'd
Speaker 1: have your fingerprints on file. But otherwise they're not there.
Speaker 1: I guess that's true. I don't Yeah, I don't think
Speaker 1: about that, you know, like I you go get a
Speaker 1: job and they say, okay, we gotta get your fingerprints,
Speaker 1: and that's just normal discourse these days today it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess that's fair that that's fairly new. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: and dental records, yeah, because yeah, I mean it's you know,
Speaker 1: unless you have somebody that you're trying to match it too.
Speaker 1: It's like a needle in a haystack. Same DNA. So
Speaker 1: so some days somebody comes forward and says, hey, we
Speaker 1: think this might be our and Nettie or something like that.
Speaker 1: Then you can you can use the DNA then to
Speaker 1: solve the whole problem. Yeah, but that's about it pretty much. Dang, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was so on it. So there are Oh, I
Speaker 1: guess the other thing I should mention is that pretty
Speaker 1: much Nobody thinks she was a drifter, though she was
Speaker 1: likely not from that area. People don't think that she
Speaker 1: was just like a vagrant that happened along in this area.
Speaker 1: Everybody seems to think that it was fairly intentional that
Speaker 1: she traveled to this spot and died there. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't think, you know, for example, the jewelry. I don't
Speaker 1: think your typical homeless person has you know, expensive fourteen
Speaker 1: care at gold jade. And I don't think that most
Speaker 1: people donate things like a fourteen here it jade ring
Speaker 1: to good will. You know. I think that the big
Speaker 1: hitch in that theory, maybe you was her wedding ring
Speaker 1: or something. But most people, if you're going to get
Speaker 1: rid of that, you're going to pawn it. At least
Speaker 1: maybe she got it a pawn shop. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe another really popular way to get rid of stuff
Speaker 1: like that is to have a stolen from you. That
Speaker 1: was a lot. That's true, That's definitely true, you know.
Speaker 1: And the other thing is how did she get to
Speaker 1: the cemetery? Did she take a cab? So don't you
Speaker 1: think that like a cabby would remember if he gave
Speaker 1: a ride to a woman who had like a Christmas
Speaker 1: tree with her. Oh yeah, but but you know, there's
Speaker 1: two things. She had a backpack. The backpack was big
Speaker 1: enough to hold the Christmas tree. But also she might
Speaker 1: have she might have also gotten the Christmas tree at
Speaker 1: the cemetery if they if somebody came in and put
Speaker 1: a little Christmas tree on their child's grave, for example.
Speaker 1: That's true because it was that time of year. She
Speaker 1: might have decided, that's kind of cheery. I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: grab that lay next to people while I kill myself. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well that she did a lot of weird things while
Speaker 1: she killed herself. And help I gets this town? Do
Speaker 1: you know the basically the approximate population of the town.
Speaker 1: I did. I did a little research because I was
Speaker 1: curious about how she got there too, like like, so
Speaker 1: I did a little research, and I was it was inconclusive.
Speaker 1: Like I did googling on bus lines between Annandale and
Speaker 1: Fairfaxure exactly where I was going. Was there any kind
Speaker 1: of public transportation in the area. Yeah, and I was
Speaker 1: not able to establish the existence. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: I was not able established and and that was just
Speaker 1: a government website. There might be private line too, But
Speaker 1: I couldn't find any any indication that there's a line
Speaker 1: that runs between those two towns, for example, But you know,
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they don't. It's a fairly populous part of
Speaker 1: the country, and I would think that there would be
Speaker 1: some sort of transportation options are a rail But you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know how close proximity this cemetery is to
Speaker 1: a rail station. I looked at the I looked at
Speaker 1: the Google map of and everything in the aerials and everything,
Speaker 1: and I saw there are plenty of roads around there,
Speaker 1: major thoroughfares, but no rail lines to speak of. Interesting,
Speaker 1: So your she's going to walk, take a cab, maybe
Speaker 1: a bicycle, Oh, bicycle probably? Why do we always forget
Speaker 1: about bicycle? I know, the antiquated everywhere. Um So, there
Speaker 1: are a couple of theory. There's some that are really interesting,
Speaker 1: some that are boring and mundane. All of them are
Speaker 1: equally viable at this point, cly, I mean, unfortunately, given
Speaker 1: the information that we have, everything is kind of on
Speaker 1: the same playing field, it, um So. One of the
Speaker 1: first fairly mundane theories is that she was a cancer
Speaker 1: patient that had gone into relapse and was just tired
Speaker 1: of fighting. Um It would help explain the do not
Speaker 1: resuss tape um. And people get there from the fact
Speaker 1: that in the picture of her her hair is very short,
Speaker 1: and they say that it reminds them of somebody who
Speaker 1: had gone through chemo on their hair was growing back.
Speaker 1: I don't put a lot of stock into that theory.
Speaker 1: A woman of her age, from the time that she
Speaker 1: grew up in a lot of older women cut their
Speaker 1: hair short like that, especially of that age. It's too
Speaker 1: bad that I don't know how thorough the autopsy was.
Speaker 1: He would think that there was no autopsy. I thought
Speaker 1: there was because I I had read that in Virginia
Speaker 1: it's required and when there's a suicide, it's required to
Speaker 1: have a suicide. Everything that I found said that they
Speaker 1: honored her request for no autopsy. All I know, I
Speaker 1: haven't done my research on like the Virginia law on
Speaker 1: autopsies and suicide, but as far as I know, and
Speaker 1: as far as everybody on the internet talking about this
Speaker 1: nose and according to the official report, they honored her
Speaker 1: no no requests. Well that's interesting, which makes you know
Speaker 1: this is a great It's a great segue into one
Speaker 1: of the other theories that there is, is that this
Speaker 1: was actually a murder. Well that's no, actually, that's that's
Speaker 1: actually what I was thinking, yeah, is that it was
Speaker 1: a murder. Wait, wait, flesh this out a little bit
Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, So, I mean, what at our way
Speaker 1: to get away with murder? Right? You take somebody out
Speaker 1: into like this kind of weird environment, Okay, and I
Speaker 1: don't know, or maybe she was meeting somebody or maybe
Speaker 1: you know. There's a lot of different scenarios in which
Speaker 1: this plays out, but essentially what happens is you kill
Speaker 1: this woman somehow, and then you leave a hundred dollars
Speaker 1: behind with a note that says, oh, by the way,
Speaker 1: don't perform an autopsy, and then you leave and they
Speaker 1: don't perform an autopsy and you get always scot free.
Speaker 1: Maybe you poison or maybe you injected her with poison
Speaker 1: and then fed booze to her and vallium before she
Speaker 1: actually died. She dies, you wrap a thing around her head,
Speaker 1: but I don't know, well, you know, that's I was
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, it's more plausible to
Speaker 1: me to believe that somebody could give her booze and
Speaker 1: valium and maybe even mix the volume in with the boost,
Speaker 1: so she's not even aware that she's taking valium. And
Speaker 1: then when she passes out or goes to sleep because
Speaker 1: of that, you just lay her out nicely and tie
Speaker 1: the plastic bag over her head and she suffocates. And
Speaker 1: to me, that's more plausible than somebody getting really high
Speaker 1: on valuable booze and then wrapping a plastic bag around
Speaker 1: their own head. That's very nefarious. I would say, why
Speaker 1: do you always go there? Why is this m you're
Speaker 1: all about? Murders? Doesn't make me feel very comfortable. No, No,
Speaker 1: I'm sad that I'm the one sitting next to him today.
Speaker 1: So and and then just for the fun of it,
Speaker 1: of course you can. You can plant a lot of
Speaker 1: mysterious clues around like a Jeff Foxworthy tape. Okay, you're
Speaker 1: just like feeding into all of my theories today. It's fine.
Speaker 1: So that's actually one of the other theory that this
Speaker 1: woman was really like an amateur sleuth herself decided she
Speaker 1: didn't want to live anymore for whatever reason. None of
Speaker 1: the thing about all these theories that none of them
Speaker 1: are like really well flushed out, like all of them are.
Speaker 1: These are just people making coming up with their own
Speaker 1: ideas and they just kind of pertain to like one
Speaker 1: aspect that nothing explains the whole thing. Well, none of
Speaker 1: this stuff is understand So the theory is that she
Speaker 1: was an amateur sleuth of some kind or knew somebody
Speaker 1: who was an amateur sleuth or whatever, and decided, I'm
Speaker 1: going to kill myself and totally plant a lot of
Speaker 1: weird stuff around me, and it's gonna you know, or
Speaker 1: it's going to be clues. Maybe it was like all
Speaker 1: part of an elaborate something. The person who was supposed
Speaker 1: to get the message got the message right. And I
Speaker 1: mean we've we've kind of talked about ideas like this
Speaker 1: before with them like the in Australia. Yeah, that like
Speaker 1: may have faked a UFO sighting because he was uf enthusiasts.
Speaker 1: You know. I think there are people like this certainly
Speaker 1: in life. Who knows if that's what this is, Like
Speaker 1: Comin Shoot or whatever his name was. I'm sure he was. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right, you do think that about it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: the up I have with this theory is it's that
Speaker 1: if I were so inclined and I wanted to kill myself,
Speaker 1: what I would do is that would leave a lot
Speaker 1: of really strange clues, and I would kill myself, but
Speaker 1: I would make it look like murder, and then my
Speaker 1: murder would be an enduring mystery, and my name would
Speaker 1: be attached to it, so my name would be all
Speaker 1: over the internet. I wouldn't just be John Doe, right,
Speaker 1: So that was I guess. One of the other things
Speaker 1: that people were talking about, or at least that I
Speaker 1: think with this whole thing, is that if you're just
Speaker 1: leaving a fun mystery behind, why hide your identity? Why
Speaker 1: not take credit for it? Because the part of the
Speaker 1: mystery is that you don't know who she is. If
Speaker 1: they knew who she was, but she left all these
Speaker 1: strange things behind. Why did she have the Christmas Tree?
Speaker 1: Why did she have the Jeff Foxworthy tape and and
Speaker 1: the and Monty Python. Well, that would just be an
Speaker 1: odd footnote in her file, That's true. Nobody would say, oh,
Speaker 1: you remember Marge. Marge, you know had all these things?
Speaker 1: No that, and why did she do that? That would
Speaker 1: not pique people's interest enough because there's there's a larger
Speaker 1: mystery here, which is who is she? Why she had
Speaker 1: the Holy Grail, my low on the list, the Christmas Trail,
Speaker 1: that stuff. But you know, Actually, what this reminds me
Speaker 1: of more than anything is the Da Vinci Code. Did
Speaker 1: you guys ever read that? Remember that? Like like at
Speaker 1: the beginning, the museum curators has has been has been
Speaker 1: shot or stabbed whatever, and he's dying, but he quickly
Speaker 1: arranges his body in a strange way that was pointing
Speaker 1: at various pages and stuff like that, and left clues
Speaker 1: for Tom Hanks to to decipher the mystery of what
Speaker 1: he was trying to tell them. Maybe this is the
Speaker 1: same thing exactly. Maybe it was just a suicide letter
Speaker 1: in and of itself. Right, was that only the right
Speaker 1: person would know, The people that really were important to
Speaker 1: her would know what was going on, and they would say, Okay,
Speaker 1: we don't need to tell everybody the answer. Fine, Maybe
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's one of the many. Another question,
Speaker 1: there's got to be somebody who's who's gotten a copy
Speaker 1: of that Jeff Foxworthy tape and played it backwards and
Speaker 1: that wasn't the one she was listening to when she
Speaker 1: year old man. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I play
Speaker 1: all this stuff backwards and I'm sure the answer will
Speaker 1: be there. Yeah. I think probably that's true. So the
Speaker 1: next theory is my favorite one. Um, I like it
Speaker 1: a lot. Is that cover one? No? If not if
Speaker 1: the Marjorie West connection. So Marjorie West is a mystery
Speaker 1: to herself, she and I don't think that we need
Speaker 1: to really go into a lot of details, but suffice
Speaker 1: to say that she's a girl who is still classified
Speaker 1: as endangered missing. She's not been classified as presumed dead yet,
Speaker 1: which is interesting. She was born in nineteen thirty three
Speaker 1: and disappeared in nineteen thirty eight when she was four
Speaker 1: years old. And so here are the pictures of fat
Speaker 1: so Low. Long time to be just listed as in danger? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so especially look at this one, right, this is a
Speaker 1: very cute little girl. We'll post these pictures. Of course.
Speaker 1: She looks a little bit like Shirley Temple, got red,
Speaker 1: curly hair and blue eyes. And then look at the
Speaker 1: Jane Doe picture again, I feel like they look a
Speaker 1: lot alike. I feel like their jawlines are very similar.
Speaker 1: They've got very similar colored hair and textured hair. I
Speaker 1: can't tell what color this woman's eyes are, but I
Speaker 1: feel they look very similar. Yeah, it's hard, it's hard,
Speaker 1: but because it's like sixty years different years difference. And
Speaker 1: here's the other thing that that bugs me is that
Speaker 1: when I haven't seen a photo of our Jane Doe,
Speaker 1: what you have there is a reconstruction of what she
Speaker 1: looks like, So it's not an actual photo of her.
Speaker 1: You know that that's a little that makes it a
Speaker 1: little hard to decide if that's under percent accurate to
Speaker 1: apply against a photograph, and that's fair, I guess I
Speaker 1: just assume it's like a fairly accurate recreation, reconstruction. Well,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that it's relatively or fairly accurate. That's
Speaker 1: a good word to use because but it's not a photograph,
Speaker 1: so that's true. But the point of this is that
Speaker 1: it looks as close as they could possibly get to
Speaker 1: what she looks like for identification purposes. Well, now the
Speaker 1: thing about it is, so, what's what's Marjorie's last name? West?
Speaker 1: Marjorie West. You know, if somebody really wanted to check
Speaker 1: this out, would be fairly easy to do because she
Speaker 1: still has I'm sure our living relatives, yes, and it
Speaker 1: would be easy to do a DNA check and actually
Speaker 1: find out. So that's one of the things. Because this
Speaker 1: is just an internet quote internet theory, it doesn't seem
Speaker 1: like the authorities are really buying it, which is fair,
Speaker 1: and DNA tests are kind of expensive. I mean, Murray
Speaker 1: does them all the time. But yeah, yeah, yeah, if
Speaker 1: maybe she has a living sister that they used to
Speaker 1: show like what she might look like, because they say
Speaker 1: they looked a lot alike. But there's a picture of
Speaker 1: her when she like a year after Marjorie disappeared, and
Speaker 1: I don't think they looked that much like at all.
Speaker 1: I don't think the pictures of that little girl and
Speaker 1: this woman but she was older, wasn't changed a couple
Speaker 1: of years. Yeah, Marjorie disappeared in nineteen thirty eight. She
Speaker 1: would have been sixty three in nine six, which is
Speaker 1: the approximate age they gave for this woman. They look
Speaker 1: a lot alike. She was found in the infant place,
Speaker 1: which a lot of people and I kind of agree
Speaker 1: that it could be a sort of mourning for her
Speaker 1: own lost childhood, whatever happened to her. How old was
Speaker 1: Marjorie when she was when she disappeared? Four Well, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty well known that children that are that
Speaker 1: young that get abducted tend to not remember their families. Sure,
Speaker 1: so unless she, you know, went through years of psychotherapy
Speaker 1: or what is the other way, hypnosis or something again,
Speaker 1: And I hate to to poo poo this on you,
Speaker 1: but it's that's again that seems like a really big
Speaker 1: reach to me, I guess, although I wouldn't say that
Speaker 1: hypnosis and psychotherapy are the only way that you can
Speaker 1: on earth hidden memories. True, but you know how many
Speaker 1: cases are there where people come forward and say, I
Speaker 1: just remembered suddenly that you know, this priest was doing
Speaker 1: bad things to me and my own relation. So you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's a fairly compelling theory that maybe you know,
Speaker 1: she went on and had her own life and whatever happened,
Speaker 1: and that's fine, and then you know, in her sixties
Speaker 1: was suddenly like, oh my gosh. But you know, I
Speaker 1: have two problems with this series. Number one is that people,
Speaker 1: for some reason seem to think there might be a connection.
Speaker 1: But to me, it's like, it's like an amazing coincidence
Speaker 1: that we've got these two mysteries at book ending this
Speaker 1: person's life. That's kind of a and and the other
Speaker 1: thing is that supposedly she was abducted and somebody raised
Speaker 1: her basically Marjorie. And yeah, there's not really any good
Speaker 1: theories on what happened to her. But she lived for
Speaker 1: but she lived for another another fifty nine years after
Speaker 1: she was abducted, and and that time she had to
Speaker 1: have formed relationships with people people would know her. So
Speaker 1: some of those people at least would have you would think,
Speaker 1: reported her missing. Yeah, you would think that, but you
Speaker 1: would think that anybody would report somebody missing. Again, the
Speaker 1: crowning mystery, and this whole thing is nobody knows, and
Speaker 1: nobody has seems to have said, oh, this lady went
Speaker 1: missing and this is who she is, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: there there's some ways to do it. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: this there's people out there, like say, if if her
Speaker 1: husband had died saying they had no kids, or maybe
Speaker 1: their kids had died or whatever, and they didn't have
Speaker 1: too many remaining family or friends or anything like that,
Speaker 1: and she decided to just go off and kill herself,
Speaker 1: you could just say something on the order of, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm going to move back to the East Coast and
Speaker 1: live with my relatives, So throw me a going away party,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna miss you guys, and goodbye, and I'll
Speaker 1: send you a postcard once in a while, and then
Speaker 1: just leave and and nobody knows and where you've gone to, everybody,
Speaker 1: every everybody loses touch. But none of those people are
Speaker 1: gonna file a missing missing person's report just because we
Speaker 1: haven't sentible Letter's true, you're just reading ahead? Is what's
Speaker 1: happening here? Are you going to talk about that? I
Speaker 1: was going to talk about my other favorite theory that
Speaker 1: people have, which I think is probably the most explanatory
Speaker 1: of them all. You know sixty three, that's about when
Speaker 1: husbands start to pass away. And one of the things
Speaker 1: um that medical examiners noticed because they did While they
Speaker 1: did not do an invasive autopsy, they did examine her body.
Speaker 1: She had a C section scar, so she did have
Speaker 1: children at one point. So it's this sort of poetic
Speaker 1: idea of they didn't have any family. Really, she had
Speaker 1: her husband, they had a baby, and it died. She
Speaker 1: was fine with it as long as he was alive.
Speaker 1: They tried again and again again. It didn't happen. This
Speaker 1: is a really flushed story, let's be honest. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm embellishing. But her husband dies, she's depressed about
Speaker 1: that and relapses into depression about her dead baby thirty
Speaker 1: odd years ago, and decides to kill herself, has one
Speaker 1: last Christmas with the family, and then kills herself. Well,
Speaker 1: and I can I can see some credens in that
Speaker 1: now the she's in the children's section because she lost
Speaker 1: a child, I don't know per se that that I
Speaker 1: would follow along with that. I mean, it's quite plausible
Speaker 1: that she I mean, obviously she's got the scar, so
Speaker 1: she had at least one child. Might not have died
Speaker 1: as a baby or toddler. It might have grown up
Speaker 1: to be an adult who then died as a young adult.
Speaker 1: That's true. Although what I know about Arrence is that
Speaker 1: to them, their baby is always a baby, right, And
Speaker 1: and so what I what I'm saying, or what I'm
Speaker 1: getting at, is her being in that section of the
Speaker 1: graveyard is not necessarily indicative of she lost her child
Speaker 1: while it was a infant. That's true, But I I
Speaker 1: also agree with that, I don't necessarily think it was
Speaker 1: like baby died, you know what. That was my embellishment
Speaker 1: on that story. So let's just say, all right, they
Speaker 1: had a kid and it died at some point, at
Speaker 1: some point. I think it's more plausible to believe that
Speaker 1: it might be that that was just the remotest corner
Speaker 1: of the cemetery or the darkest with at least street lighting,
Speaker 1: and that her murderers decided that would be the operable
Speaker 1: place to do her in. He's really sure, he is.
Speaker 1: I'm out of theories, you know, this one. It's there's
Speaker 1: just it's odd. The only thing that I can think
Speaker 1: of of the stories we've been given that I like
Speaker 1: is the amateur angle. It's the only one. Of course,
Speaker 1: of course you do, of course I do. Of course
Speaker 1: that makes sense to me. I don't know, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I've talked about I like the Marjorie one,
Speaker 1: and I and I recognize that I pretty much only
Speaker 1: like that for like the really poet poetic symmetry that
Speaker 1: it gives, you know, that this girl disappears and then
Speaker 1: is also you know, dies in mysterious circumstances, their nice bookends.
Speaker 1: Is it really that feasible? Probably not no, But you know,
Speaker 1: this is one of those stories that you kind of
Speaker 1: get to pick whatever theory you like, because chances are
Speaker 1: good it's never going to be solved. And you know,
Speaker 1: for me to believe in my heart, probably neither of
Speaker 1: these mysteries are going to be solved. So it's very
Speaker 1: easy for me to be able to say, oh no,
Speaker 1: that's totally what happened there, and nobody's really ever going
Speaker 1: to be able to tell me otherwise. So there you go.
Speaker 1: So cool. Yeah, so that's how I feel about it. So,
Speaker 1: anyway to solve the mystery, Yes, her name really is
Speaker 1: Jane Doe. Yeah, yeah, that was you know, that's the
Speaker 1: My favorite joke that I came across was that people
Speaker 1: were like, Wow, maybe her name was actually Jane Doe.
Speaker 1: I mean, somebody's got to be named Jane Doe, right, real,
Speaker 1: Jane doll Is you know, actually let me get my
Speaker 1: phone book? Ye. So yeah, I guess that's kind of
Speaker 1: it is one of those ones. I guess I've been
Speaker 1: kind of on a streak of like kind of unsolvable mysteries. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's like like Wheelhouse right now. Yeah, Okay, you need
Speaker 1: to come up with the ones that we can actually solve. Okay,
Speaker 1: next week maybe, But I I do think we've pretty
Speaker 1: definitively established that this was indeed a murder, all right, No,
Speaker 1: I don't think so. So if you'd like to see
Speaker 1: the pictures that we were talking about and debating, they're
Speaker 1: going to of course be on the website that's Thinking
Speaker 1: Sideways podcast dot com. You can also listen to our
Speaker 1: show there, or you can listen to our show on iTunes,
Speaker 1: which you are probably doing. If you are doing that,
Speaker 1: if you would take the time to give us a
Speaker 1: rating and a comment, it's much appreciated. I know, I know,
Speaker 1: I don't read or comment any of the podcast I
Speaker 1: listened to, so it's a big ask. But just do
Speaker 1: it for me, because we're friends. Yes, yes, we are too.
Speaker 1: So you can also stream us on Stitcher if you
Speaker 1: forget to download and you're just craving something insideways because
Speaker 1: I know all of you are constantly going through you know,
Speaker 1: withdraw UM like us on Facebook, and you can always
Speaker 1: send us an email, UM if you have theories about this,
Speaker 1: if you just want to share something, if you have
Speaker 1: story ideas, Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com, and
Speaker 1: I think we actually have a couple things to share. Yeah,
Speaker 1: off of our weapon, people send us, People actually send
Speaker 1: us all kinds of mail. Occasionally we pick a few
Speaker 1: good ones off the top of the heat. There are
Speaker 1: a couple of really good ones this week. Actually, Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: do you want to go first? Yeah? Yeah, no, I
Speaker 1: I totally got this one. So we got an email
Speaker 1: from a guy named Denzel who lives down in act
Speaker 1: in California, Washington. I wish it was, but it's not.
Speaker 1: But he says, what's up, TSP. I love that we've
Speaker 1: already got an abbreviation. Yeah, mine has also got a
Speaker 1: great salutation. Yes, uh, he says. Uh. He said he's
Speaker 1: a freelance illustrator, and so he spends his job every
Speaker 1: day is you know, sitting down and doing illustrations, and
Speaker 1: so he's listening to headphones. You know, we are the
Speaker 1: perfect outlet for that, So concentrate on something else. I
Speaker 1: was gonna say, good mindless listening. Yeah, backheaded compliment, but
Speaker 1: he did. He did share with us a little something funny.
Speaker 1: And I know I shared you with this with you, Joe,
Speaker 1: and I know you enjoyed this. Is he was saying
Speaker 1: that he was listening to the yat Love Pass incident episode.
Speaker 1: Let me go ahead and get this right. I still
Speaker 1: remember my favorite joke. Uh. Joe said, it was Chupacapper
Speaker 1: who opened the tent, lit a cigarette stood there. The hikers,
Speaker 1: struck with fear of secondhand smoke, ripped their way out
Speaker 1: of the tent. Yeah that was a good joke. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a good joke. He evidently laughed so hard
Speaker 1: he almost messed up his work. So wait, way to go,
Speaker 1: you know, causing the guy or whatever. He glad you appreciate.
Speaker 1: He enjoyed it, and he had some some interesting theories
Speaker 1: about what else could have caused it. And we went
Speaker 1: back and forth on a couple of emails, and he's
Speaker 1: given us a couple of story ideas which I really like,
Speaker 1: which you're not things that we'd normally do, but we're
Speaker 1: definitely gonna have to look into some of these. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the good Yeah, they seem like they're going to
Speaker 1: be big endeavors. Yeah, they're They're not gonna be easy,
Speaker 1: but I think I think they're gonna be fun. It's
Speaker 1: gonna require like jetting to Europe. It's going to be
Speaker 1: kind of like the DaVinci Code. Yes, we're on the
Speaker 1: DaVinci Did you like watch that movie recently year? No?
Speaker 1: Actually I never watched the movie. I read the book.
Speaker 1: Oh excuse me, How ignorant of me to imply that
Speaker 1: were watching him. Um So my listener mail that I
Speaker 1: like is from a woman named Nancy, and she says, hello,
Speaker 1: team you guys were a team. So she really likes
Speaker 1: our podcast too, because everybody really podcast. But she had
Speaker 1: some things to say about Goldbecky Tempe, which, like who doesn't, right,
Speaker 1: Her theories are pretty awesome, let's be honest here, and
Speaker 1: actually Steve of course thinks they're extra awesome. They're a
Speaker 1: lot like his theory. Um. Nancy thinks that maybe there
Speaker 1: was some kind of cast system that happened in this
Speaker 1: society that built Goldbecky Tempe, and that they did some
Speaker 1: selective reading which made them super intelligent, even perhaps she said,
Speaker 1: purging unwanted babies. You there's presidents for that, as she mentions,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of tribes that there's proof of
Speaker 1: that happening in other times anyways, so you know, and
Speaker 1: then there of course would have been an uprising or something,
Speaker 1: and she's got a lot of really cool theories about that.
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to give a little shout out
Speaker 1: to a Nancy for these great theories because stuff I
Speaker 1: hadn't really thought of. I'm sure Steve thought of it.
Speaker 1: Of course Steve thinks about weird stuff like this, but
Speaker 1: I didn't really think of it. So thanks for pointing
Speaker 1: that out to us. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, we will consider that.
Speaker 1: Next time, we might do a rerunder of Colbecky Tompion.
Speaker 1: There's enough information we could do. Yeah, at least, I guess.
Speaker 1: Send us an email if you want us to know
Speaker 1: all of your awesome theories, because there are better theories
Speaker 1: than we have out there. Yeah, we're talking about anyways,
Speaker 1: Marjorie West. Yeah, not by murder by everybody,