1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Bodybuts with Joseph S gotten more. A long, long time 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: ago there was a king in England. His name was 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: Charles First, and I've actually spoken about him on bodybacks 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: before he was beheaded. He was beheaded at the order 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: of Parliament, who was loosely controlled by a fellow named 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: Oliver Cromwell Well. In the wake of the deposing of 7 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: Charles First his subsequent execution, Cromwell elevated to the position 8 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: of Lord Protector, did away for a short period of 9 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: time with the monarchy. But as with many things in 10 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: life and death, it never remains the same because a 11 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: few years later, Charles First's son, who had been living 12 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: in exile, Charles a Second, ascended back to power, and 13 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: when he did, Cromwell had been dead, already buried in 14 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: a crypt. The remainder of those that had deposed the 15 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: king were arrested, tried, drawn and quartered, disemboweled while they 16 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: were alive, as a matter of fact, and then came 17 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: to Cromwell. They disinterred his body and took his head, 18 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: cut it off and stuck it on a spike for 19 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: all to see. The reason I'm telling you this is 20 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: that I guess other than just maybe vengeance in some 21 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: way a warning maybe to others there was really no 22 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: need to dig old Olie up, but they did. I 23 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: don't know how much evidence it provided of anything. But 24 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: today on body Bags, we're going to find out if 25 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: dead men do in fact tell tales, because I think 26 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: they might. And the tale that I have to tell 27 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: you today is something that would make even Charles the 28 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: Second quiver. I'm Joseph Scott Moore and this is bodybacks. 29 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: I've been a part of several exhamations over the course 30 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: of my career, and it's it's an odd thing to 31 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: be present for. I have to say there's a bit 32 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: of excitement that goes along with it. There're certainly scientific curiosity, 33 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: and then there's this little hobgoblin that always lived in 34 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: the back of my brain, you know, kind of fearful 35 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: of what we were going to find when we cracked 36 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: that casket opened and heard inside for the first time, 37 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: because you never know what you're going to find. 38 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,119 Speaker 2: Dave, is this like something you did on a regular basis? 39 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: It's something probably I would be involved in. It seemed 40 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: to work out where I was at least involved in 41 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: one per year, maybe even two. 42 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: And to get another then happens that easy. They got 43 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 2: to go to court and everything else. You got to 44 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: really prove what you're doing and why to make that happen. 45 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: I know, I always reference this case because cases near 46 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: and dear to mahar is Tammy Davell, you know, and 47 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: that's that's a glaring example of this and it you know, 48 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: it takes. You have to have the full force of 49 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: law in order to do it. It's often said that judges. 50 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: Judges hate cracking open grapes. It's just not their things. 51 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: So when you go before the judge to get an 52 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: order of exhumation, it has to be something that is robust. 53 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: It has to be something that is proven to be 54 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: a need, an urgent need. In order to prove something 55 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: you just randomly go about digging up grace because that 56 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: that gets into a really dark area called desecration. At 57 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: that point. Wow, and how many somebody just had the word, Yeah, 58 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: I know, how many times have you and I covered 59 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: cases like about desecration and abuse of corpses. So you're working. 60 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: You made us do it a gain last week? 61 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, Lord, have mercy. I had to take my brain 62 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: out and scrub it with comment. Yeah, so it's this one. 63 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 2: This is this case today, Joe, when you talk about 64 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 2: solving and I mean solving a case that goes back 65 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: sixty one years. Yeah, and all of the machinations that 66 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 2: went into this. I had the chance to look over 67 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: the case. And because we start at the end, you know, 68 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: this cold case has been solved. But there's a twist 69 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: to the excimation on this one. Not a common thing 70 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 2: that happens with regard to solving a cold case like this. 71 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: But the guy that they actually found and when I'm 72 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 2: not trying to bury the lead, but he was never 73 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: on the radar, Joe. You're talking about technology that wasn't 74 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: even a glint in nineteen sixty four, a guy who 75 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: was a criminal, but not even a suspect in this crime, 76 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 2: which is a heinous crime on a wonderful woman who 77 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: was fifty years old and merely tried to rent the 78 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: apartment upstairs in her house. That's all she was trying 79 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: to do, Joe. She's a poor woman at a factory 80 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 2: and she just was renting that room. 81 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: That's it. Yeah, And ye what happened to her you're 82 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: going to. 83 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 2: Have to cover because it's pretty substantial, and it took 84 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 2: technology from now from today to actually find out who 85 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 2: killed her in nineteen sixty four. 86 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that something. The reason I was drawn to 87 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: this case is the fact that it reminded me the 88 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: victim here, this victim. It actually reminded me a little 89 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: bit of my wife's grandmother, in the sense that she 90 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: was not a victim of a homicide, but in a 91 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: sense that she was a person that worked in a factory, 92 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: took care of her family, had a great job, actually 93 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: worked for and here's a name from the past. She 94 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: worked for the Lily Tulip cup manufacturer company, if you 95 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: remember Lily Tulip. And interestingly enough, when she retired, she 96 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: worked there for years and years, and there was a 97 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: group of these ladies that all worked on the assembly 98 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: line together and they called them. They would meet for 99 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: coffee and they called their group the Wilted Lilies. Was 100 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: in the of the group. But she worked at this factory, 101 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: and in addition to that, she rented properties. She had 102 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 1: multiple homes or multiple dwellings in Springfield, Missouri, And so 103 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: she was doing everything she could to support her family 104 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: and make away for them and building up, you know, 105 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: kind of a nest egg for her family. Kimmy's grandmother 106 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: was one of the most generous ladies you'll ever come, 107 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: and just kind hearted as she can be. And you 108 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: can kind of see how if this lady was as 109 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: much like my wife's grandmother as I believe that she 110 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: probably was, she's probably very trusting soul. Everybody around there 111 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: really loved her. As a matter of fact, she was 112 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: considered to be everyone's, if I'm not mistaken, everyone's favorite 113 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: aunt day and that says a lot. I had And 114 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: this lady's name, by the ways, Catherine Blackburn, and I 115 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: had a special affinity for aunts in my life, Ladies 116 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: that never married, you know, just like this lady. She 117 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: was all about her family and they had great love 118 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: and affection. But you know, the thing about it is 119 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: is that people that are very trusting, many times they 120 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: don't have an awareness that there is some monster that 121 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: is waiting just around the corner to do some of 122 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: the most horrible things. And we're going to detail these 123 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: things in this episode that one can possibly even fathom. 124 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 2: Dave, Yeah, you mentioned how her family looked at her, 125 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 2: and I got a quote. Our aunt Kate loved her faith, 126 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: family and friends. She was a daughter, sister, aunt, and 127 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 2: neighbor Katherine Blackburn, you are not forgotten. That's kind of 128 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 2: a poignant closing on everything this family went through for 129 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: sixty one years. Yep. And you know, I'm thinking about 130 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 2: there was an eighty one year old woman at the 131 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 2: ceremony this past week when they announced the conclusion of 132 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 2: this crime that began in nineteen sixty four. She's an 133 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 2: eighty one year old woman. Now, she was twenty when 134 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: she saw her Aunt Katherine. She was the woman who 135 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: discovered Aunt Catherine. And imagine how her life has been 136 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 2: from the age of twenty young woman at the beginning 137 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: of adulthood to now being an eighty one year old 138 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: senior citizen. Oh yeah, and thinking back to this, I 139 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: just can't imagine what this would do to your life. 140 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: It would be crushing because you know this lady Catherine 141 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: that had been such part of their life, and you know, 142 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: you can imagine what she would do. You know, she's 143 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: probably there for every single holiday, probably hosted holidays at 144 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: her home, meals, you know, just everything and probably oh 145 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: my lord, you've got nieces and nephews. You know you're 146 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: going to get a Christmas present from Aunt Catherine. You 147 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: know that kind of endearing person that she was. Everybody 148 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: looked forward to seeing her and being and for this woman, 149 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: as you'd mentioned, that bore witness to this, that actually 150 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: found her aunt's body, discovered her. It's impossible to plumb 151 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 1: the depths of horror because you know when you and 152 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: even as a death investigator, you will walk on and 153 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: we don't we don't try to display that professionally. But 154 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: there's sometimes when you'll walk onto a scene, Dave, and 155 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: you're you're standing there at all that you're standing and 156 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: staring at all that remains of an individual where they 157 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: have just been brutalized and ripped the shreds, and you 158 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: can't take the measure of it. Many times you're trying 159 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: to explain it in your brain because you know, the 160 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: thing about it, Dave, is that you look at someone's 161 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: body and you see it twisted and bent and broken 162 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: and burned and scarred and just ripped the shreds, and 163 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: the first question that comes to mind is not many times, 164 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: who did this to them? But you look at the 165 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: victim and you'll say, what in the world did this 166 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: person do to deserve this? And the really horrible thing 167 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: about this is that, brother, it ain't about what did 168 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: they do to deserve it. It's about the fact that 169 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: evil just kind of floats around in the air many times, 170 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: and you never know whose shoulders it's going to land upon. 171 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: There's two words that kind of popped mind when it 172 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: comes to descriptors of individuals that are sexual deviance. And 173 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: you've either got an individual that is a masochist who 174 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: enjoys pain being inflicted upon themselves, or you have an 175 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: individual who is a sadist who derives pleasure from watching 176 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: pain being inflicted upon someone else, and many times the 177 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: sadist is actually involved in inflicting the pain. The reason 178 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: I bring this up is that many years ago there 179 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: was a movie that came out, and it was actually 180 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: in two thousand and it's a movie called Quills, and 181 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: it had some of my favorite actors, namely Michael Caine 182 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: was in there. By the way, do you know how 183 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: you say Michael Cain in a Cockney accent? You actually 184 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: say the word my cocaine and it goes like this 185 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: Michael Kaine. So there you go. That's in Cockney. That's 186 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: the extent of my imitations, but it had Michael Caine 187 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: in it. In the name of the movie. It also 188 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: had Jeffrey Rush, and many of us might remember Jeffrey Rush. 189 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: It's fantastic in Kate Winslet. Anyway, the name of the 190 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: was Quills and it was about I think Waqui, Yeah, Woaquin. 191 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: Phoenix was in it too, and he portrayed a young 192 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: priest in it, and it had to do with the incarceration, 193 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 1: temporary incarceration of the Marquis de Sade. And you begin 194 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: to see how depraved he was in this movie, you know, 195 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: and it's it's a fictionalized version, but if you go 196 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: along you read some of the companion text and some 197 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: stuff that he was involved in, you begin to see 198 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: why modern psychologists psychiatrists began to pull that term. And 199 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: now it's an application for people that are just so 200 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: bent and so evil, and a lot of it roots 201 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: out of this and Dave in this particular case, the 202 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: coroner back then, based upon the injuries that he observed 203 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: on Catherine's body, said that whoever did this was a 204 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: sadistic sex maniac. And I know that that sounds very 205 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: early nineteen sixties in the way that he but he's 206 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: just telling the telling the truth. At that point in time, 207 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: the things that he saw that had been perpetrated upon 208 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: this poor woman were stuff that I think that most 209 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: of us, I hope that most of us couldn't even 210 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: begin to fathom. 211 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: Dave Well, and the timing it happened. When you have 212 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 2: a fifty year old woman who is living by herself, 213 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: and she's trying to rent the apartment upstairs, and she's 214 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 2: actually on the phone with her sister when the person 215 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: who's coming to look at the apartment shows up, and 216 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: she gets off the phone in a hurry. Hey got 217 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 2: to go, got to get the door. And so yeah, 218 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: if you can imagine what that must have been like 219 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 2: for the sister later on, you know, to know that 220 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: she hung up the phone and then answered the door 221 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 2: and let Satan in you know, flesh come into her home. 222 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: And based on what took place, I'm curious, Joe, because 223 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 2: we know some of the injuries. But I'm thinking that 224 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 2: because this was not a weeping willow of a woman. 225 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 2: This is a woman who actually was the fore woman 226 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 2: of the mohawk factory. Okay, I'm thinking she was. Yeah, 227 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: I'm thinking she probably knew her way around, how to 228 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 2: tell people what to do and things like that, and 229 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 2: she wouldn't be the kind of person you'd mess with. 230 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 2: So when this person comes to look at the apartment upstairs, 231 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: I'm thinking that it was a bum rush. I'm thinking 232 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: he got inside the house and attacked her quickly. What 233 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 2: do you think? 234 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I think that that's probably what happened. And 235 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: she's probably kind of inviting. And plus Luke, I mean, 236 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: she's she's looking at at, you know, renting a room. 237 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: And I mean to tell you the apartment was upstairs, okay, yeah, yeah, 238 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 2: and that's where this took place. 239 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and she she and dwelled the same structure, and 240 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: so the apartment is upstairs. And listen, I mean even 241 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: back then, you know, people are going to be you know, 242 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: they're going to want to know who the individual is. 243 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: It's going to be living under the same roof with him, right, 244 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: And you had mentioned that that this was probably a 245 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: bum rush. He gets her up there, or she leads 246 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: him up there, you know, because you can imagine what 247 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: it's like. She's leading the way, she's going upstaircase. She's saying, 248 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: the room's right this way, follow me, you know, and 249 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: as he you know, is trailing behind her, behind her 250 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: up there. This is when I believe that the attack 251 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: started up in this room, and there is kind of 252 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: kind of a gap in time here relative to how 253 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: long this may have took place. I can tell you 254 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: this and if this gives you a little hint, a 255 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: little hint and insight into timing. Dave, there's one comment, 256 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: and I'll go ahead and pull back the curtain just 257 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: we bid here. There's one comment that is made by 258 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: the corner in this case. This individual said that her 259 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 1: torturing that involved heated kitchen knives went on for hours. 260 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: So from the point that he makes contact with her 261 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: at the house and they adjourn upstairs to take a 262 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: look at the space, that's when all hell broke loose 263 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: and Dave, I got to tell you, brother, it wasn't 264 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: an immediate death. She lingered. She lingered while she was 265 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: enduring torture. And there's there is multiple evidence of torture 266 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: over the totality of her body. I mean, it's almost 267 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: like no surface area was not involved in this. 268 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 2: It's not where she was struck in the head. And 269 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 2: that she was sexually assaulted. Wow, she was unconscious. How 270 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 2: can that be told? 271 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: Joe? Well, I think that Okay, here's how it can 272 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: be told. First off, if she is struck in the head, 273 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: when there's trauma to the head, you've got you've got 274 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: kind of three levels. There's and you know, some people 275 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: might take exception, but in my simple mind, this is 276 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: the way I measure it. So you've got multiple areas 277 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,239 Speaker 1: of where hemorrhage can begin to set in. If if 278 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: you've got, say, for instance, a skull fracture, you can 279 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: have what's referred to as an epidural skull fracture or 280 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: epidural hemorrhage, which the epidural hemorrhage is the dura covers 281 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: the brain. It's like the sack that the brain floats in, 282 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: and the brain and the spinal cord which are all attacked, 283 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: all attached. Are a watch with cerebral spinal fluid. Do 284 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: you remember, like if if you've ever taken a first 285 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: day class, people will say, don't if you see blood 286 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: coming out of the ear, that significant. But if you 287 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: see clear fluid coming out of the ear, that's an 288 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: indication that the interior of skull has been impacted and 289 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: probably the dura has been erupted and so therefore the 290 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: CSF fluid that's redundant. But the cs fluid was literally 291 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: pouring out of the external ear canal, and that's one 292 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: of the things you look for with head injuries. So 293 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: you can still be in that unconscious state and still 294 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: be very much alive. You're just unconscious. And I don't 295 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: know that she would have been completely unconscious for the 296 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: totality of it. I don't know that there's really any 297 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: way you could tell that, because you know, I don't 298 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: think that people continue to torture individuals unless they're getting 299 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: some kind of reaction from them. Now, you might have 300 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: a pain response in the unconscious state because you've got 301 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: an individual that has obviously beaten Catherine, but Dave, he's 302 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:11,479 Speaker 1: he is also going to either an adjacent gas stove, 303 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: which it sounds like it was probably down it and 304 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: heating what they describe as steak knives, and then returning, 305 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: returning the steak knives back upstairs, and he's burning them 306 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: with her, or he's burning her with these And here's 307 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: the interesting thing he was now again this is from 308 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: the reports from the time, he's actually creating shapes. That's 309 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: a fascinating turn of a phrase there, He's creating shapes 310 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 1: with a heated blade and he's making these quote unquote 311 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: shapes on both her lips and her chest. And I'm 312 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: fascinated by this because those are two you've got three areas. 313 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: You got three areas, particularly the female form. They're highly 314 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: sexualized the mouth, the breast, and their bottom, okay, and 315 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: so any kind of trauma that's being inflicted in those 316 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: particular areas, as opposed to being burned up and down 317 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: the arms, for instance, is not as telling I think 318 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: as burning of the lips and certainly burning of the 319 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: breast perhaps, And that's what they're alluding to. You've got 320 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: a big surface area there you can push the hot 321 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: blade into it, and the idea that he's creating shapes 322 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: that's not something that that implies that. Just imagine if 323 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: you could envision a steak knife in your mind where 324 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: the blade obviously comes to a tip. You can heat 325 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,239 Speaker 1: it up and then you could I could actually, and 326 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: Lord forgive me, I was sitting here thinking about how 327 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: this was done. You could create a flower shape with 328 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: this over and over again, just trying to do it 329 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: in a circular pattern. So they're saying that he's actually 330 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 1: creating these images on her body with a hot a 331 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 1: hot knife blade. He's also slashed her throat, and if 332 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, in addition to that, he stabbed her 333 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: in the neck, slashed her throat. And they're saying that 334 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: this went on for a protracted period of time. Oh 335 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: and by the way, he's raping her the entire time, 336 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 1: off and on. So this, whoever this is, is like 337 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: in a highly frenzied state at this point in time. 338 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: That gives us an indication I think investigatively that he 339 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: was probably watching her, and they don't really say. And 340 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: this is curious, you know, because back in the day, 341 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: where do we find out about available apartments. Well, you 342 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: got to go to the local newspaper, right or I 343 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: guess they could have like I guess, I don't know, 344 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,239 Speaker 1: back on bulletin board, Yeah, bulletin board. Or they had 345 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: those little you remember, the little penny magazines that you 346 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: could get like at the at the grocery store and 347 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: whatnot that are adjacent to the aisles, and they'll have ads, 348 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: like local ads in them. There's you know, they've got 349 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: coupons in them and things like that. But he he 350 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,479 Speaker 1: would have targeted her. Now they're up in Albany, New 351 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: York and Albany is not a small place, of course, 352 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: it's the you know, it's the governmental hub of the 353 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: state of New York. Certainly you have all of this 354 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: area around there. He's targeted her specifically, he's aware of her, 355 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: and somehow she got onto his radar. 356 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: Day Oh, I can think, Joe, now what we know 357 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: about the suspect. I agree with you one hundred and 358 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 2: ten percent because after talk about a weird way of 359 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 2: going about this, because and I don't want to be dismissive, 360 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: and I apologize. If you're a family member, I hope 361 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: you realize the care we have taken on this because 362 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 2: it is so devastating emotionally. We all have a family 363 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 2: member that fits this profile. I think we all have 364 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 2: that aunt who didn't get married, that is in her 365 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 2: late forties and early fifties and still very active, and 366 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 2: she's the funny one usually and you know, the one 367 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 2: you look for my aunt Carolyn. I mean, I'm thinking 368 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 2: about you know, And so when I wanted to find 369 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 2: out about the guy that did this, and it wasn't easy, 370 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: but once I did, then Joe, then I realized when 371 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 2: you were saying he was watching, maybe it might have 372 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 2: gone further than that, it might have been that he 373 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 2: had the floor plan. He might have had that place 374 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 2: not just staked out, but he knew where the room was, 375 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 2: knew where the kitchen was, and knew how much time 376 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: he would have because what did he have to know? 377 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 2: He'd be familiar enough with her patterns, her day today 378 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 2: work and to know that there wasn't somebody coming home. 379 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 2: This wasn't happens since he had to know that this 380 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 2: was a single woman who did not have children or 381 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 2: a husband coming in, and that he could be there 382 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 2: long enough to do everything he wanted to do and 383 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: to incapacitate her, because it wasn't until a coworker came 384 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: by and to pick her up to go to work, 385 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: and she didn't come to the door and didn't seem 386 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 2: to be home, and the coworker calls her sister and says, hey, 387 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 2: you know, go check on your sister. I don't know 388 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 2: what's going on. And so that's where the niece, who 389 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 2: now is eighty one, goes with her mother, Caroline, Catherine's 390 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 2: sister rather and they go to check on her, and 391 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 2: that's who found her. It wasn't the police, it was 392 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 2: her sister and her niece, and he knew all that, 393 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: he knew he was going. 394 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: To be undisturbed. I'm really wondering, I'm really wondering if 395 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: I'd like to know who previously occupied the space as well. 396 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: Was this someone that was known to the perpetrator like perhaps, well, 397 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: first off, he'd have to know that there was a vacancy. 398 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: Maybe he asked somebody and said, yeah, you know, I 399 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: just moved out of this place where my buddy just 400 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: moved out of this place. It's available, it's run by 401 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: this really nice lady that's there. And all you have 402 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,719 Speaker 1: to do is that, you know, a sadist like this 403 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: is not looking for a roof over their head. They're 404 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: looking for their next victim, and unfortunately, in the case 405 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: of Catherine Blackburn, he found one. So, you know, Dug, 406 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: you brought out an interesting point that you know, her 407 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: coworker saw, no, didn't see hide in her hair of 408 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: her as they say, right, And when she alerted the sister, 409 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: the sister, Catherine's sister went over there with her daughter 410 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: into the niece, whose name by the way, Sandy, got 411 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: over there and when they discovered her, they immediately alerted 412 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: the police. The police when they arrived, they found actually 413 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: dave alledger that was there at Catherine's home and it 414 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: had the name Robert Broadhead. Uh. And they found that 415 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 1: through tracing indentions. 416 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 2: You know. I thought that was fascinating that to me, 417 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 2: because you know, that's not I thought when they said 418 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 2: there was a the name was in a ledger, right, 419 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 2: I thought that it was just the receipt, you know, 420 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 2: that was staying and it was right there. And then 421 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: I looked deeper and that was where they actually saw 422 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 2: that something had been written there, but didn't know what 423 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 2: it was because it didn't show us that They did 424 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 2: the old you know, number two pencil and you know, 425 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 2: it's great out yeah, and got it that way, and 426 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 2: it's like I wanted something that we did they do 427 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 2: that with the kids. Do they teach kids that at school? 428 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 1: I don't know if they do or not, but it's certainly, 429 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: you know, because you can look at something and see 430 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: see that there is an underlying impression. And that's actually 431 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: one of the things that I teach a section on 432 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: question documents my Intro class at JSU, my Intro Forensics class, 433 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: because we go over the practice of question document examination 434 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: and there's tracings that are like that, and this seems 435 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: kind of a rudimentary, kind of primitive form of doing this, 436 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: but if you see it, you have to raise it. Nowadays, 437 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: we would use alternative lighting where you can blast the 438 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: area with you know, polarized light, or you can do infrared, 439 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: and you can actually raised raise an indentation. You would 440 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: never have to touch the paper with like a number 441 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: two pencel. But it's still the same, it's still the 442 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: same principle and it's it's admissible. It's admissible in court. 443 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: But you know, the name that came up with was 444 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: Robert Broadhead, and this gives you an idea as to 445 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: where the police were back in sixty four day. They 446 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: found nobody in the area that was associated with its name. 447 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, they were and this fascinating 448 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: to me, absolutely fascinating. There was a they were at 449 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: such a dead end and had no leads that they 450 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: they inserted or emplaced a hidden microphone in Catherine's casket 451 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: so that if there was somebody that was there at visitation, 452 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: which you can see some sexual deviant doing this, taking 453 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: pride in what they had done. If anybody were to 454 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: make a spontaneous confession, standing at the casket. They actually 455 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: had the casket miked up back in nineteen sixty four. 456 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: I was fascinated by that, man. 457 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 2: I saw that in their reports and I was going, Okay, well, 458 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: in a casket, you can hide it because you know, 459 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 2: you're even on an open casket, you only keep the 460 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 2: waste up. So you've got plenty of you know, high 461 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 2: about everything. And I wonder what they did here. You know, 462 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 2: there's been this is something that not the only time 463 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 2: that police have done something like that, and. 464 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: So this was obviously a practice that went on. I'm 465 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: not saying that it doesn't go on today, but it's 466 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: kind of an interesting way. And you know, you have 467 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: to were they were desperate. But you know the thing 468 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: about it, Dave, is what's really cool about this case, 469 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: and I'm saying cool in a scientific way, is that 470 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: the answer to the big question who was this actually 471 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: rested right beneath Catherine's body at the scene, and that 472 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: is the information that they were so seeking. And listen, 473 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: I'm not sliding the people in the past that it's 474 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: the past. It's what it's the way they were limited 475 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: by the type of technology they had. But I will 476 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: give them a tip of the cap here because they 477 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: found there was a handkerchief found beneath beneath her body, 478 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: and back then they tested that handkerchief and actually found 479 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: remnant of semen. Now, we have to understand it that 480 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: we did not have DNA technology back then. The idea 481 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty four that we could have used DNA 482 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: in order to, you know, kind of integrate into crime 483 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: solving was something that you know, I don't know that 484 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: anybody it had occurred to anybody. Maybe it had, but 485 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that you would look 486 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: for with seminal deposition and zerologists. Zerology is a section 487 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: within crime labs that has housed the DNA section now 488 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: for a long long time. Soerology deals with not just blood, 489 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: but semen, urine, VC's, stomach contents, you name it, saliva. 490 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: There's a certain percentage of the population and male population 491 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: that are secrets, and so with secrets in saliva, the saliva, feces, 492 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: and semen, you can find red blood cells. And one 493 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: of the things that they would do is if an 494 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: individual and I can't remember the percentage, it seems like 495 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: it's forty maybe forty thirty five, forty percent population or secrets. 496 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: If you get lucky and you get one of the 497 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: secrets that has left behind seminal deposition, you can actually 498 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,959 Speaker 1: check that semen sample for red blood cells, and if 499 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: you can get a red blood cell, you can type 500 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: the blood. But even then with ABO grouping, you're kind 501 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: of you're kind of limited. You know, apause aneg B 502 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: pause bnag opause ONEG and then you you've got apause 503 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: a you know, so forth and so on, So you're 504 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: kind of limited. Uh, the rarest, of course, I think 505 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: it's ab neg if I'm not mistaken, and so that 506 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: that was That's how limited it is. But Dave, they 507 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: held onto that sample for years and years, and this 508 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: was a cold case, and it wasn't until actually a 509 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: college along with a forensics detective and Albany Pde got 510 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: involved in this case, Dave, back in twenty eighteen. I 511 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: think it was this forensics detective that was assigned to 512 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: look into a cold case. Her name was Melissa Moury. 513 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: And again a big tip of cap to her because 514 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: she took this to a professor that ran the cold 515 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: case analysis center at College's Saint Rose. Her name is 516 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: doctor Christina Lane. Took this sample there and they began 517 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: to work this case to try to determine who exactly 518 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: was this. So the kids get this cold case and 519 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: they began working it well. As it turned out, they 520 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: had the seminal sample that they could do a comparison 521 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: with Day. 522 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 2: In that shocking that they were able to take a 523 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 2: piece of evidence from nineteen sixty one four and now 524 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 2: again twenty eighteen they start working it. But you know, 525 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 2: it's interesting how the field of genetic genealogy has grown 526 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 2: with DNA. I was looking through the amount of time 527 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 2: and effort because again twenty eighteen they actually had and 528 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,720 Speaker 2: they're right there, they're right on the cusp of figuring 529 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 2: this out, but no solution yet. In twenty twenty three, 530 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 2: the Cold Case Analysis Center at Saint Rose was given 531 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,879 Speaker 2: a grant from Seasons of Justice. It's a nonprofit that 532 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 2: funds efforts to further investigate cold cases using DNA, and 533 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 2: they actually copped up ninety seven hundred dollars. They believed 534 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 2: in what they were doing at Saint Rose so much, 535 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,959 Speaker 2: and that's where actually Authorm was involved that this all 536 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 2: developed into a genetic genealogy case. Joseph Scott Morgan that 537 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 2: you and I have talked about on this show of 538 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 2: you using some of the smartest people in the world 539 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 2: to create these opportunities. Now, to take some Joe, it's 540 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,439 Speaker 2: a handkerchief underneath the person's body. In nineteen sixty four, 541 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 2: they have no They've talked to everybody, they had a 542 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 2: list of possible suspects. Okay, they had them, checked them 543 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 2: all out, they all had alibis, they had nothing. But 544 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:33,399 Speaker 2: then they have this DNA and a detective starts working it, 545 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 2: and the science gets involved, and the next thing you know, 546 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,959 Speaker 2: you've got students that are involved. You know, I can't 547 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 2: imagine the educational value of this for them career wise 548 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 2: of watching this take place and still twenty eighteen until now. 549 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: And listen, here's another way that you know, the police 550 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: are disadvantaged that if you have a group of let's say, 551 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: scholars or college kids that are being directed by scholars. 552 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 1: You know, I think that a lot of people labor 553 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: under this idea that cops have all the time in 554 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: the world to work cases, and they don't. And I 555 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: got called in to consult on a case that was 556 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: up in Pennsylvania several years ago in the cases from 557 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy and I remember going to speak with the 558 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:29,320 Speaker 1: detectives from the cold case Squad to the Pennsylvania State 559 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 1: Police and I'm not putting words in their mouth, but 560 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 1: this case was from nineteen seventy days, all right, that 561 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: they had. They have a limited number of members on 562 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 1: this squad. Okay, they have more recent cold cases that 563 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: they're trying to get solved. And you know the thing 564 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: about it is the longer time goes by, the more 565 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: faded memories get, the more compromised evidence can get. And 566 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, you don't have unlimited resources. However, if you 567 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: put a group of students that are being directed by 568 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: a scholar and you have consultation with a police department, 569 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: that's a lot of brain power. And it's a lot 570 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: of enthusiasm too. You know, when you get older and 571 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: you're in proudly, you're not quite as enthusiastic. But I've 572 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: seen a room light up, you know, in a cold 573 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: case class I teach at Jack State. You know, these 574 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: kids their eyes like suddenly burst open and they're they're like, 575 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: we're going to be you know, analyzing a cold case. 576 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 1: You know, what can we put together? And suddenly their 577 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: brain is stimulated and you put a bunch of energetic 578 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: kids along with a professor that's motivated, and there are 579 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: not too many mountains you can't climb, you know, with 580 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: that kind of energy. But they're focused on that one case. 581 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: Whereas you know, how many other cold cases have there 582 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: been in Albany, New York's it's nineteen sixty four, man, 583 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: you know, it just it builds up over time. But yeah, 584 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: they did have this biological evidence and believe it or not. Well, 585 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: that's really fascinating about this is most of the time 586 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: when you and I cover cases, they are cold cases. 587 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:17,879 Speaker 1: Many times we will be examining cases that involve remains 588 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 1: of unknown individuals and they'll have to go back and 589 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: backtrack determine who the person is. They get genetic material 590 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: from that individual, you've got a body, or you have 591 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: what remains of a body, and they're able to get 592 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: them identified. That's not what happened in this case, Dave. 593 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: We knew who Catherine Blackburn was. They've always known who 594 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,479 Speaker 1: she was. The question was who was her perpetrator. Well, 595 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:47,280 Speaker 1: because of the genetic material that had been left behind 596 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: and their efforts there and the preservation loathed these many 597 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: years later, Dave, they had so much data that they 598 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: had built up, and they had gotten down to the 599 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: brass hacks of everything. They they got an order of 600 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: exhumation and they exhumed the body of who they thought 601 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: was a suspect, David. 602 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 2: That had to have been an intense battle. I mean, 603 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 2: we started off the show talking about how difficult it is. 604 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 2: It's not something that judges are just due. And now 605 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 2: you're talking about in this case, the person is a suspect. 606 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 2: It was never a suspect in life. He's now dead. 607 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 2: Think about that. Now you're going to tell me this 608 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 2: guy that you never thought he was never on your list, Joe, 609 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 2: and now you're saying he is. Okay, you had a 610 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 2: chance to talk to him for however many years before 611 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 2: he died. Now he's been dead for twenty five years, 612 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 2: and you want to go dig him up. Okay, let 613 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 2: me see what you got. Okay, I'm looking at your evidence. 614 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 2: All right, here's the shovel, boys, let's go dig him up. 615 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: You know, well, you know the thing about it. It 616 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: turns out this guy's name is actually Joseph Nolwaski and 617 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: he had been Don't no one delude yourself into thinking 618 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: this guy is an airy haired little angel. All right, Hell, 619 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 1: he's got a long he had a long history of scumbaggery, 620 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: all right, that you can fall back onto here starting 621 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: I don't know, starting back in actually I think nineteen fifteen, 622 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 1: he had nineteen fifties, eighteen years old. Hey, yeah, he was. 623 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we mentioned briefly about had he been 624 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 2: watching Catherine, had he been scoping out her place? You know, 625 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 2: because he was there for a long time, torturing her. 626 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 2: And this guy was a career criminal, and at one point, 627 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 2: can I give you the greatest hits our killer of 628 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 2: what he did? I mean, sure, after he gets caught 629 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty he gets caught burglarizing a house within a 630 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 2: fifteen year old, he's only eighteen, goes to jail, he 631 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,359 Speaker 2: ends joining the US military. Now, a lot of times 632 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 2: judges back then you got a young man going astray. 633 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 2: Here's your choice, boys, you got five years in the pen, 634 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 2: or go in the military. Goes in the military, gets 635 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,720 Speaker 2: out in nineteen fifty eight, and from then until nineteen 636 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 2: sixty one, apparently, according to his neighbors, he didn't do anything. 637 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,320 Speaker 2: He didn't have a job, didn't work, young man doesn't work. 638 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 2: He's now thirty three at the time of the murder 639 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 2: of Catherine. But this is a guy who from nineteen 640 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 2: sixty one till nineteen seventy three, he's committing armed robberies. 641 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,359 Speaker 2: He's breaking into homes. They even caught him with a 642 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:46,720 Speaker 2: kit in the mid sixties where he had two switchblade knives, 643 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 2: burglary tools like a crowbar and an alcohol torch, and 644 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 2: detailed floor plans of private homes and businesses in Rochester, Syracuse, 645 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:04,359 Speaker 2: Buffalo detailed of private homes. That's why I say this 646 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 2: guy was the kind of guy that thought things through. 647 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 2: He knew who lived there, he knew what her lifestyle 648 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 2: was like. And that's why I think based on that, 649 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,319 Speaker 2: I bet he had a lay, had a floor plan 650 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:16,879 Speaker 2: for that house. 651 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: They probably did. Yeah, can anyone hear say modus operandi? Yeah? Yeah, 652 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you know they throw that term around, you know, 653 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 1: m O. But yeah, Dave, I mean, he he had 654 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: an m That's why, you know, the big question is 655 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 1: had he scoped her out to the point where he 656 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: knew her comings and goings And it's not like he's 657 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: she You know, her and her family are longtime residents 658 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,800 Speaker 1: of Allby. You know, they've they've got an established family 659 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 1: history there, they're known about town, and he's he's not 660 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: unfamiliar with this area's fully familiar with it. Who say 661 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 1: he wouldn't have crossed paths with any of her relatives 662 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,280 Speaker 1: and probably her maybe at the grocery store or wherever 663 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: it was. And you know, he's at his core, he's 664 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,840 Speaker 1: a p editor. And predators stalk their prey, you know, 665 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 1: and they're looking for opportunities. And I've always had a 666 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: there's always this kind of creepy little thing that goes on, 667 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,439 Speaker 1: I think with people that commit burglaries, because I don't 668 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,440 Speaker 1: think that they all go in to necessarily, what a 669 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:22,320 Speaker 1: weird word, huh, burglarize a home. I think a lot 670 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 1: of it is going in when no one is there 671 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: and viewing the home, going into private areas and digging 672 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,239 Speaker 1: through private things and just observing. And I think that 673 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: there's an indwelling. It's not just thievery. There's like an 674 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 1: indwelling sexual sickness to it in many of the cases. 675 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: And they just say that they are burglarizing homes. And 676 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 1: you can burglarize a home without stealing anything, but you know, 677 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,160 Speaker 1: and in Catherine's case, here's another point. There was nothing stolen. 678 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,759 Speaker 1: There was nothing stolen whatsoever except thank you, thank you 679 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: so much, or absolutely right, except for her life, the 680 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,799 Speaker 1: most valuable thing that was inside of that dwelling. Dave, 681 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: what happens, what happens with this case after this? 682 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,959 Speaker 2: Okay? Nine years after he kills Catherine. Nine years later, 683 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,880 Speaker 2: he attacks a seventy four year old lady in Schonnected 684 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 2: in New York, who woke up in her bed May sixteen, 685 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three, covered in blood and confused. She calls police. 686 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,880 Speaker 2: She's taken to the hospital with a fractured skull, cuts 687 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,879 Speaker 2: to her back and face. The hatchet wielding attacker left 688 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,359 Speaker 2: two clues at the scene, Joe a gold crown, dental crown, 689 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 2: and a glove. Now, he almost got away with this, 690 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 2: but here's the problem. He got drunk and went driving. 691 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 2: He takes the police on a wild chase, and of course, 692 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 2: you know what you want to piss off cops. Make 693 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 2: them chase you, Yeah, make them get into a high 694 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 2: speed pursuit, or even worse, make them run after you. 695 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,839 Speaker 1: Well, it's like the quote from Chris Rock. He said, 696 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:56,719 Speaker 1: if the police have to chase you, they're bringing an 697 00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: ass kicking whim. 698 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,520 Speaker 2: So there you go, that's exactly what happens. Yeah, so 699 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 2: anyway you look at it, when he's intoxicated, they get 700 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 2: him for leaving the scene of an accent at other 701 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 2: traffic violations, then resisting arrest, and by the way, possession 702 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 2: of a dangerous weapon a knife with a four and 703 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,919 Speaker 2: a half inch plate. And by the way, they're looking 704 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 2: in the car, Now, what do we have here? A 705 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 2: hatchet with blood on it. That's how they got him 706 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 2: for the Schenectady attack. By the way, it was a 707 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 2: town councilman named fred Isabella. The town counselman, also a dentist, 708 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 2: was called in to take a look at the gold 709 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 2: crown and matched it up to his. 710 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,320 Speaker 1: Tooth, and he cat it back to him. Yeah, it's 711 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: like a kind of living odentology, you know, as opposed 712 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,640 Speaker 1: to forensical Well, it is forensic odontology. It's just that 713 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,000 Speaker 1: most of the time is practiced on the dead. But here, 714 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: you know, you've got an individual that literally marries up 715 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: a restration on a tooth of crown and marries it 716 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,399 Speaker 1: up to the guy that's the perpetrator. Again seventy three. 717 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: You don't have DNA to work with. But you know 718 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:14,680 Speaker 1: those are that's physical evidence that was accepted well enough 719 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: in court that you know, that's that's a you know, 720 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:18,680 Speaker 1: that's that's a nail in your coffin. 721 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 2: He went to prison, He got three to fifteen years, 722 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,759 Speaker 2: he served seven. He got out in nineteen eighty. So 723 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,399 Speaker 2: we know what he did to Catherine in nineteen sixty four, 724 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 2: We know what he did to the lady in s 725 00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 2: Connecteddy in seventy three. He does go to prison, but 726 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:36,239 Speaker 2: when he gets out in nineteen eighty, apparently Joe he 727 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,920 Speaker 2: learned a lesson and flew under the radar until he 728 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:45,839 Speaker 2: died in nineteen ninety eight. So he's that's why they 729 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 2: had to go dig him up once they were able 730 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 2: to narrow down. 731 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's and that's significant here because you know, 732 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 1: when you think about it, he's he's no longer to 733 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:04,279 Speaker 1: be found anywhere. Once you start to dig into this 734 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 1: genetic tree, if you will. What's the old game or 735 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 1: I guess it's magic eight balls? What is it? It says? 736 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:16,400 Speaker 1: All signs point to yes. When they begin to process this, 737 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: they have an idea that this is who it is. 738 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,600 Speaker 1: But guess what, we ain't got nothing to compare it to. Hey, boys, 739 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,799 Speaker 1: break out the picks and shovels. Here we go, you know, 740 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,520 Speaker 1: and off to the graveyard they go. They disturb this guy, 741 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:35,279 Speaker 1: dig him up, Dave, take him to the lab and 742 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:39,839 Speaker 1: take DNA samples off of his body, and bingo, they 743 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,879 Speaker 1: got the perpetrator. They got the perpetrator, and Catherine Blackburn's 744 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,319 Speaker 1: homicide all the way from nineteen sixty four loath these 745 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,319 Speaker 1: many years later. And the reason we're reporting on this 746 00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 1: and discussing this case is the fact that this has 747 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,480 Speaker 1: just been cleared after all of this time, and this 748 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 1: proves that, you know, I think for a long long 749 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,400 Speaker 1: time in the cold case world it was kind of 750 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 1: helpless and hopeless many times. But you know, the thing 751 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:11,800 Speaker 1: about it, Dave, is that with genetic material, those those 752 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,840 Speaker 1: days of being kind of overwhelmed that there are so 753 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,239 Speaker 1: many cases out there that will never get solved. This 754 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:22,440 Speaker 1: is proof that if you do what you're supposed to do, 755 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,760 Speaker 1: even back in nineteen sixty four, like these brave people 756 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,640 Speaker 1: did back then, they process that scene, they collected the evidence. 757 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 1: They didn't know, they had no idea that all the 758 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: way in twenty twenty five, that that handkerchief that they 759 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:41,160 Speaker 1: picked up at that scene would be the answer to 760 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,480 Speaker 1: clear one of the most heinous homicides off the books. 761 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:50,239 Speaker 1: In Albany, New York. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 762 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:52,120 Speaker 1: is bodybags