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Speaker 1: Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you, welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick, and we're coming at you with some

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Speaker 1: listener mail today. A really good crop this month, I believe. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the key reasons is, you know,

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Speaker 1: on one hand, people send a nice listener mail, but

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Speaker 1: also our robot, our mail bot, Carney has had more

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Speaker 1: free time to uh to to properly collect it and

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Speaker 1: assemble it and present it to us. That's right. That's

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Speaker 1: because Carney quit social media. That's right. He got off Facebook,

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Speaker 1: got off Twitter, stopped scrolling, he listened to our episode

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Speaker 1: on Bummer and uh now he's he's bummer free. Uh though,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, he has in fact turned into

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Speaker 1: a manual social media robot of his own uh and

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Speaker 1: no behavior modification. Instead, he just rolls around the world,

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Speaker 1: delivering messages directly between people by shouting them them at you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it it takes a little longer, but but he never stops.

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Speaker 1: That's the cool thing, you know. It's like the he's

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Speaker 1: like the monster and it follows. He just makes a

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Speaker 1: straight line from from cinder to recipient and he'll get there.

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Speaker 1: Most of the time he just zips up and says

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Speaker 1: like yes or heart or or just presents the proper

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Speaker 1: emoji in place of, you know, actual emotional investment. He

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Speaker 1: also deals in um in memes quite a lot as well.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well, I can't fix everything at once. Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: I think we should jump right into it with a

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Speaker 1: for this first one is not a single bit of

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Speaker 1: listener mail, but it is a theme we got. So

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Speaker 1: let's start by talking about our episode on The Tingler.

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Speaker 1: This was about fear and about the nineteen fifty nine

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Speaker 1: William Castle movie The Tingler. Super fun episode. I really

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Speaker 1: enjoyed that one. Yeah, and hopefully we inspired more than

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Speaker 1: a few people to actually go check this film out,

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Speaker 1: you know, for the first time, or to revisit it

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Speaker 1: and admire its weirdness. Absolute camp classic. It is wonderful.

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Speaker 1: But I wanted to start up front. We usually, if

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Speaker 1: we get any corrections, we try to put these upfront

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Speaker 1: most often, and so I'm doing that right now. In

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Speaker 1: our episode on The Tingler, in talking about the influence

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Speaker 1: of our gut flora on our brains. Specifically, we were

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Speaker 1: talking about the ways and the evidence that changes in

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Speaker 1: gut flora could have an effect on animal fear response,

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Speaker 1: including perhaps human fear response. I mentioned an estimate that

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Speaker 1: the number of microbial cells in our bodies around ten

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Speaker 1: times the number of human cells in our body. Now,

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Speaker 1: this used to be a commonly cited figure, but several

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Speaker 1: listeners got in touch to point out that the more

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Speaker 1: recent and probably more accurate estimates have revised that number down,

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Speaker 1: so it's probably closer to a two to one or

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Speaker 1: a one to one ratio. But even on the lowest end,

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Speaker 1: that fact remains about as astonishing to me. On the

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Speaker 1: conservative estimate by sheer cell count, only half the cells

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Speaker 1: in your body are human cells. Yeah, and and that

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Speaker 1: is that is amazing to consider. The Tingler, of course,

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Speaker 1: uh involved for anyone who didn't listen to that episode,

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Speaker 1: and easy reminder, uh. It involved a plot line about

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Speaker 1: this weird centipede like creature that resides along all of

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Speaker 1: our spines and when we when we fear, when we

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Speaker 1: when we really gripped by intense fear, it constricts around

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Speaker 1: our spinal column and if we don't scream to to

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Speaker 1: you know, to drive it back into seclusion. It will

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Speaker 1: like snap our spine in half, right, when the fear

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Speaker 1: starts flowing, you get those spines cracking. Right. But of course,

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Speaker 1: the one of the whole weird aspects of the whole

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Speaker 1: plot was there's a thing living inside you that's not you.

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Speaker 1: And of course the more we we we know about

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Speaker 1: the human body and uh, the microbiome, we know that

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Speaker 1: that is a reality. Like you said, half of our

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Speaker 1: selves are not our own. Half of we are half

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Speaker 1: Tingler at all times. Except the only way I might

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Speaker 1: argue with that is that maybe those cells are best

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Speaker 1: thought of as you, even though they don't share you,

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Speaker 1: say your d n A. And they are bacterial cells,

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Speaker 1: not mammal cells. In what sense are they not you?

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Speaker 1: If they share body space with you, if they have

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Speaker 1: control over your feelings and your thoughts and your behaviors.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it's kind of hard to argue that

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Speaker 1: those bacterial cells aren't you in some way. This is

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Speaker 1: another reason we we really need to do the fly

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Speaker 1: yeah show. You know, probably the Cronenberg version, that's version

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Speaker 1: as opposed to Vincent Price, uh is that's the one

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Speaker 1: that I'm I'm most attracted to. But you get into

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Speaker 1: a lot of this in that film as well, like

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Speaker 1: the idea of your genetic identity being disrupted by the

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Speaker 1: by an interloper, in human interloper that flies into the

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Speaker 1: telepod with you. But of course we already have so

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Speaker 1: many interlopers that are just part of the package that

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Speaker 1: are I guess going. They have to be attract and

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Speaker 1: we assembled by the computers that are maintaining the telepods.

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Speaker 1: To begin with, it's okay, we're all brundle fly. Okay,

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Speaker 1: do we want to look at our next email about

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Speaker 1: the Tingler? I think this one starts off being in

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Speaker 1: response to a question we asked in that episode, which

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Speaker 1: was could having a sort of imaginary personification of your

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Speaker 1: fear response be helpful in overcoming your irrational fear response?

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Speaker 1: Liken thinking of it as some kind of animal that

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Speaker 1: you have to contend with that's separate from you. Uh,

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Speaker 1: does that give you some kind of power over it?

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Speaker 1: And our listener Anna got in touch with several thoughts.

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Speaker 1: But first off, I think that's what she's talking about,

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Speaker 1: all right, She writes, Hi, Robert and Joe, I've been

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Speaker 1: listening to your podcast for a while now and really

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Speaker 1: enjoyed other podcasts I listened to. I find interesting when

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Speaker 1: I am listening to them, but then I move on.

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Speaker 1: But with yours, I find myself having lots of thoughts

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Speaker 1: about the topic you were discussing. Oh no, in one

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Speaker 1: of your recent podcasts that you were discussing anxiety and

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Speaker 1: if it could be personified it would be easier to

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Speaker 1: deal with. I suffer from some anxiety myself, and one

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Speaker 1: analogy I found useful was the image of a smoke alarm.

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Speaker 1: The smoke alarm is there to go off if there

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Speaker 1: is a fire, but often goes off if you burn

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Speaker 1: or toast, or forget to put the fan on above

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Speaker 1: the stove. The smoke alarm responds the same whether it

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Speaker 1: is a major disaster or a minor incident. I find

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Speaker 1: this useful way of describing my anxiety to others. I

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Speaker 1: often forget to put the fan on above the oven

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Speaker 1: and the smoke alarm comes off. I keep a broom

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Speaker 1: nearby so I can poke the button on the smoke

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Speaker 1: alarm with the broomstick. Perhaps I should imagine poking my

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Speaker 1: anxiety with a broomstick. I think that's a really good analogy.

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Speaker 1: You also discussed why you enjoy horror films and this

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Speaker 1: reminded me of something I read in a Newal gaming book.

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Speaker 1: It was in the introduction to the Coraline and Other

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Speaker 1: Stories book. He was saying it was a shame that

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Speaker 1: modern children's literature wants to avoid scaring children, but some

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Speaker 1: of the best children's stories are scary. He quoted Ogden

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Speaker 1: Nash quote. Where there is a monster, there is a miracle.

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Speaker 1: He says. A world in which there are monsters and

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Speaker 1: ghosts and things that want to steal your heart is

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Speaker 1: a world in which there are angels and dreams, and

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Speaker 1: above all, a world in which there is hope. And

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Speaker 1: from there she goes on to make a reading recommendation

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Speaker 1: that we may come back to in a future episode,

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Speaker 1: but she closes out by saying, keep up the great work. Annah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh so this is a really interesting thought. Now, Robert,

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Speaker 1: I think you've sort of covered that idea on the

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Speaker 1: show before, right this. I think this was before I

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Speaker 1: came on the show. But you did something a long

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Speaker 1: time ago about children children's like scary kids stories. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's an older episode on that about because there was

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Speaker 1: there was a study about like terrifying elements and children's literature.

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Speaker 1: It would be interesting perhaps to look at it again

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Speaker 1: and see if there's gon't have been any new scholarship

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Speaker 1: on it. Uh, And of course there are all there's

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Speaker 1: always the you know, observations of like the horrific aspects

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Speaker 1: of not only like Grimm's fairy Tales, like that's a standard,

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Speaker 1: but you know you expect it from the brothers Grim

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Speaker 1: But then you look at Disney films as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the you know, at a ton of replexing, lye

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Speaker 1: traumatic moments that occur in those films. Yeah, it's um,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's interesting. Of course, the whole argument about

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Speaker 1: like you know, you've got to have the monster so

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Speaker 1: you can have the angels. Um. I think maybe that's

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Speaker 1: part of it. I mean, that's also kind of a

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Speaker 1: theological argument for the existence of horrible things in the

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Speaker 1: world that sometimes people take issue with. So I don't know, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't know if you should take like

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Speaker 1: the angels thing literally there, because like I sometimes have

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Speaker 1: the thought, obviously, we want a better world, you know,

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Speaker 1: you want pain to be taken away and like more

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Speaker 1: good things to happen to more people all the time.

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Speaker 1: But there is a part of you that says like

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Speaker 1: if I never faced any kind of pain or any

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Speaker 1: kind of struggle or anything, something about that seems very

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Speaker 1: scary in itself. There's a kind of like brave New

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Speaker 1: World is kind of quality to that that there's some

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Speaker 1: part of us I do think that yearns for struggle,

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Speaker 1: and that would maybe feel like life was meaningless if

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Speaker 1: everything was always good and happy. I've been thinking about

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Speaker 1: about some of this recently, I mean, particularly with with

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Speaker 1: with say horror and uh in dystopia. You know, at

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Speaker 1: times we have like just extremely grim models of this,

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Speaker 1: and I feel I feel like, you know, obviously, fiction

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Speaker 1: is always going to speak to the time in which

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Speaker 1: it is created. It's going to speak to the experience

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Speaker 1: of the people that created and and I don't mean

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Speaker 1: to like, you know, make a you know, to to

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Speaker 1: over inflate that and try and make an outrageous overstatement

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Speaker 1: of the obvious here, But but you know, I think

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Speaker 1: I feel like at times, maybe the horror is dwelt

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Speaker 1: on in times and by people you know who do

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Speaker 1: not who who have the privilege of not having to

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Speaker 1: confront uh such horrors head on. But then what happens

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Speaker 1: is later on, in a more horrific time, or a

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Speaker 1: time when the horror is more obvious to us. We

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Speaker 1: still have those same stories to look back on, and

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Speaker 1: they don't always match up, you know, they don't always

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Speaker 1: deliver what we need to either make sense of the

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Speaker 1: world that is occurring around us or to escape from it. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then the other thing I was thinking of two

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Speaker 1: is the the idea of you know, personifying anxiety, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, and about how it often seems like I

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Speaker 1: often feel like, you know, there's there is the shape

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Speaker 1: of of the anxiety that must be filled with something,

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Speaker 1: you know, and if if I'm not worrying about this thing,

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Speaker 1: like something else is going to fill that shape. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's just part of of like how we evolved,

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Speaker 1: you know, like we evolved to be a being that

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Speaker 1: would always encounter that shape. That shape would be there,

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Speaker 1: perhaps very physically in the form of a predator or

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Speaker 1: just you know, in the form of the you know,

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Speaker 1: the hurdle of surviving in a in a hostile world.

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Speaker 1: And as we remove ourselves from that world of just

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Speaker 1: pure survival, you know, we have we still have that

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Speaker 1: shape in our lives and it will be filled with something.

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Speaker 1: It cannot remain a vacuum Um, it may fill up

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Speaker 1: with paper tigers if that's all it has in your life,

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Speaker 1: or it just may fill up with dreads about things

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Speaker 1: that may occur or certainly will occur in your future. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then yeah, I guess we have to poke it

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Speaker 1: with a broomstick. That's the only thing to do, or

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Speaker 1: we'll wait. I'm I'm not sure. Were you suggesting that

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Speaker 1: it's possible that the that that shape could be filled

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Speaker 1: in with sort of fictional exercises as well, like that

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Speaker 1: this is a value of scary or or challenging scenarios

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, I think so, I mean there, I

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Speaker 1: try to think of times where I've I've done that

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Speaker 1: either like consciously subconsciously, and I think I have. But

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Speaker 1: they were often sort of simpler times in my life too,

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Speaker 1: where not to say the world was simpler, but maybe

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Speaker 1: I was just more oblivious, you know, to the you know,

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Speaker 1: the dangers of saying you know, geopolitical situations or you know,

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Speaker 1: or less um, you know, if it's familiar with you know,

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Speaker 1: the state of my own privilege, that sort of thing. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, you just sort of lump a horror

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Speaker 1: film in there, like imagine this and uh and then

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like later on I reached

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Speaker 1: a point where it's like, oh, I don't have to

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Speaker 1: imagine that that like this is this is all real,

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Speaker 1: and that's what gets sucked into the into the vacuum

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Speaker 1: of the shape. If that's making sense, all right. We

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Speaker 1: also have another Tingler related a bit of a listener

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Speaker 1: mail here, and this one comes to us from Jonathan.

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Rites, thanks for choosing a film that dates back

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Speaker 1: to my generation. I was eight when I saw The

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Speaker 1: Tingler in the theater. I wasn't sitting in a vibrating seat,

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Speaker 1: but at the moment when the creature walks across the

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Speaker 1: projection screen, the theater momentarily shut off its emergency floor lights.

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Speaker 1: What frightened me, though, were the sudden screams from the audience,

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Speaker 1: multiplied by the screams on the soundtrack. Those live screams

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Speaker 1: seem chilling at the time. I'm not proud to say

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Speaker 1: that I thought this was the best horror film I

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Speaker 1: had ever seen, and going to the movies to watch

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Speaker 1: Saturday matinee horror films was a regular part out of

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Speaker 1: my life. In the years since, I've experienced way too

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Speaker 1: much cortisol to enjoy horror anymore. Amazing how you can

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Speaker 1: create such a fascinating episode on such an unlikely topic.

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Speaker 1: Oh thanks Jonathan. Yeah, that's great that we got to

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Speaker 1: hear from someone who was actually there for not only

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Speaker 1: The Tingler, but other horror matinee films. I need to

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Speaker 1: I need to write Jonathan back and ask him, you

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Speaker 1: know what, what are some more memorable entries from the

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Speaker 1: Horror Mountain matinee that he remembers seeing turning off the

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Speaker 1: exit lights. I envied the people who got to have

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Speaker 1: the experiences before, like insurance demands on theaters would prevent

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Speaker 1: those kinds of stunts, right opposed from like whatever kind

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Speaker 1: of like gimmicky insurance. Uh that William Castle might have

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Speaker 1: been proclaiming to the film. Alright, So we next are

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Speaker 1: going to turn to a message from our listener Cody

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Speaker 1: about our episode on the asteroid twenty nineteen okay, which

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Speaker 1: passed very close to the Earth not too long ago.

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Speaker 1: Cody writes, Hey, guys, just listen to your episode about

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Speaker 1: the nineteen okay. I actually work in the field of

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Speaker 1: planetary defense. Amazing. Uh, So sometimes we ask for messages

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Speaker 1: like this and sometimes we get them. Cody continues, and

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Speaker 1: there is unfortunately quite a lot of misinformation on this subject,

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Speaker 1: mostly spread by academicians and journalists who don't actually work

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Speaker 1: in this field or sit on any policy discussions. So

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Speaker 1: let me get this out of the way. The nuclear

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Speaker 1: option is, by leagues, the better tool available to us.

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Speaker 1: So let me explain why, with the caveat that these

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Speaker 1: are my personal opinions on the subject as someone who

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Speaker 1: works in this field, not the position of any particular organization. Alright,

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Speaker 1: so we're gonna get a nuclear nuclear weapon in space, advocate, right,

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Speaker 1: and really the first like pro nuclear weapon argument, I

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Speaker 1: think we've really properly entertained on this show. What about

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Speaker 1: this is good, you know, finally finding a good use

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Speaker 1: for nuclear weapons that isn't killing people. Okay, uh, Cody continues.

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Speaker 1: Every asteroid that is ever going to hit the Earth

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Speaker 1: is going to go through a very long period of

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Speaker 1: having a vanishingly small probability of doing so. This is

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Speaker 1: because the probability of an impact is calculated by taking

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Speaker 1: the ratio of the cross section of its probable location

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Speaker 1: when it passes Earth. With errors factored in, this looks

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Speaker 1: like a big ellipse with the Earth inside. To the

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Speaker 1: cross section of the Earth itself. For asteroids detected foreign advance,

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Speaker 1: this ratio is close to zero i e. A very

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Speaker 1: large number divided by a relatively small number. This is

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Speaker 1: still true for asteroids that will strike the Earth. This

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Speaker 1: is just how errors factor into the calculation of probability.

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Speaker 1: The really dangerous aspect of this is that at the

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Speaker 1: time scales that would be required for something like a

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Speaker 1: gravity tractor to work, the probability you would calculate for

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Speaker 1: an impact is you guessed it basically zero. So who

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Speaker 1: in their right mind is going to spend the billions

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Speaker 1: of dollars required on such a mission when there's almost

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Speaker 1: an absolute certainty from an accountant's perspective that it's a

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Speaker 1: waste of money. This is also true of any painting

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Speaker 1: or mirror or solar sale venture that's been proposed. We

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Speaker 1: just don't have infinite money to play those kinds of

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Speaker 1: games on asteroids that were not certain are even going

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Speaker 1: to strike the Earth. Now, by the time we are

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Speaker 1: much more certain of an impact, like let's say we

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Speaker 1: have calculated a five percent chance, the only remaining tools

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Speaker 1: that stand a chance of working are a kinetic impact

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Speaker 1: or or a nuclear standoff. Explosion, nobody actually contemplates blowing

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Speaker 1: it up in this field. At that point, the cost

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Speaker 1: of the mission still controls the equation. Here, a kinetic

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Speaker 1: pusher will be moving at the same speed as a

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Speaker 1: nuclear device when it reaches the asteroid, and pound for pound,

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Speaker 1: a nuclear device just delivers more energy for the cost

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Speaker 1: of delivering it to the asteroid. Let's not forget the

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Speaker 1: US does not currently possess any vehicle capable of delivering

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Speaker 1: a kinetic impact or of sufficient mass to be relevant

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Speaker 1: to anywhere in the Solar System. We need a Saturn

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Speaker 1: five to just to even try the expanse version of

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Speaker 1: space travel isn't here yet. As for elegance, nuclear winds

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Speaker 1: there too. Since any kind of explosion next to an

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Speaker 1: asteroid causes the near part of the asteroid to heat

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Speaker 1: up and blow off for quite a while, you're not

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Speaker 1: just pushing it, you're turning the asteroid into a rocket.

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Speaker 1: As for turning the asteroid into a radioactive asteroid, I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry to say, everything in space is already radioactive, and

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Speaker 1: an asteroid we'd be trying to deflect would find our

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Speaker 1: attempts to make it radioactive cute by comparison to what

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Speaker 1: the Sun already does love the episode. And yes, there

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Speaker 1: are actually people working very hard on this problem. Cody. Well,

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Speaker 1: this is great. I mean we you know, we we

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Speaker 1: we knew there were people working on this problem, and

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Speaker 1: we celebrate them. And it's great to actually hear from

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Speaker 1: someone like this. So you know, keep up the great work, Cody,

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Speaker 1: because we need it. This is this is, as I've

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Speaker 1: said in multiple times, like this is one of the

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Speaker 1: those those few endeavors that can actually you know, have

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Speaker 1: the potential to save the earth. Uh um and uh

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Speaker 1: and we should absolutely celebrate it, acknowledge it, and end

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Speaker 1: above all things funded. This is a really great example

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Speaker 1: of how firsthand knowledge of working with a problem in

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Speaker 1: a field can inform your decisions better than just thinking

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Speaker 1: about the problem. And you know, from an abstract point

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Speaker 1: of view for not very long can because like a

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Speaker 1: lot of these astrophysicists that you talk about would say, okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, like the gravity tractor sounds like a great idea,

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Speaker 1: and it is a great idea except for the considerations

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Speaker 1: that Cody mentions here, right, the idea of calculating the

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Speaker 1: probability of an impact far enough in advance for it

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Speaker 1: to work. It seems like we would have to have

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Speaker 1: the ability to predict with much greater accuracy than we

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Speaker 1: can right now whether something would hit us way away

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Speaker 1: in advance. And I don't know what it would take

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Speaker 1: for that kind of accuracy to come online. Maybe we

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Speaker 1: just can't ever expect that it would, I guess, unless

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Speaker 1: we want to go, you know, put gravity tractors on

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Speaker 1: all kinds of things, which, as it points out, nobody's

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Speaker 1: going to show out the money to do, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: yeah it is. So it does make a I think

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Speaker 1: a strong argument for this being the far more practical

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Speaker 1: choice as well. Alright, well, on that note, let's take

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Speaker 1: a quick break, and when we come back, we will

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Speaker 1: roll into some bummer email than alright, we're back, So

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Speaker 1: the next batch of emails is going to concern our

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Speaker 1: episodes on social media the bummer business model, as so

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Speaker 1: dubbed by Jarren Lanier. And we got quite a few

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Speaker 1: of these, so we might try to roll through some

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Speaker 1: of them pretty quickly. But but well, well, I guess

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Speaker 1: we'll stop to comment wherever we can, right, and just

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Speaker 1: reminder every everybody. Bummer was Lanier's acronym for what behaviors

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Speaker 1: of users modified and made into an empire for rent um,

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Speaker 1: which which which? Which is nice and eloquent, But then

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Speaker 1: when you get down to it, like bummer just feels appropriate.

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Speaker 1: So now I just refer to all social media as

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Speaker 1: bummer just in my daily conversations. I'm probably really annoying

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Speaker 1: some people in the process. But anyway, first we heard

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Speaker 1: from Hannah Hannah Wrightson and says, hello, I'll just listen

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Speaker 1: to the social media bummer episode, and I thought it

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Speaker 1: would shy. I'm in As a junior in college, I

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Speaker 1: took a substance abuse class, and our semester long project

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Speaker 1: was to give up something we were addicted to for

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Speaker 1: the semester. A lot of my classmates chose coffee, soda,

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Speaker 1: and one or two even chose cigarettes. I chose Facebook.

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Speaker 1: When my classmates found out, many of them seemed surprised.

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Speaker 1: Most of them said they could never give up Facebook,

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Speaker 1: and some even admitted to being addicted to Facebook, like oh,

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Speaker 1: I'll quit cigarettes, but Facebook, Yeah, so she continues. For

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Speaker 1: the first week or so, it was really hard. I

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Speaker 1: found myself to be grouchy and bad tempered, almost like

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Speaker 1: I was kicking a chemical habit. I guess I kind

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Speaker 1: of was in a way, because social media is primed

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Speaker 1: to reward our brains in a way that encourages more

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Speaker 1: usage of social media. However, I found something interesting after

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Speaker 1: and after the initial withdrawal. I found I was actually

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Speaker 1: much happier without social media. After the semester ended, I

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Speaker 1: created a new account, but found that I didn't really

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Speaker 1: want to use it anymore, and found that it actually

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Speaker 1: made me anxious and sometimes even depressed. The same is

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Speaker 1: true of other social media platforms, include Instagram. I find

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Speaker 1: that I am happier and less anxious and generally more

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Speaker 1: productive without them. I still stay in touch with all

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Speaker 1: my close friends, many of whom live out of state,

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Speaker 1: and I feel that I actually feel more connected to

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Speaker 1: those around me without the use of these platforms. Just

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Speaker 1: thought i'd chime in with my two cents. Keep up

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Speaker 1: the good work. Well thanks for sharing, Hannah. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: have to agree. When I got out of my personal accounts,

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Speaker 1: I've I felt a lot better. I felt a lot

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Speaker 1: better in so many ways. I still have to have

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Speaker 1: work accounts for the show and others, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I use them less and I don't use them for

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Speaker 1: personal things that I just log in when I have to.

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Speaker 1: Basically and Uh, yeah, and I totally identify with this experience. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh, for anyone who is you know out there

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Speaker 1: is just toying with the idea. I think we've mentioned

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Speaker 1: this before in previous episodes. I can't stress enough the

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Speaker 1: value of if you're not going to delete your accounts,

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Speaker 1: delete your shortcuts, delete your apps, because I mean one

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Speaker 1: way of describing it is like, oh, it makes it

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Speaker 1: harder for me to find it, like I have to

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Speaker 1: work more to log in. And I think that's absolutely

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Speaker 1: key because you're destroying those sort of automatic responses, you know,

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Speaker 1: where we all find like your fingers just kind of

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Speaker 1: move on their own. It's almost like a wig board

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Speaker 1: experience of suddenly you're you're in Facebook, suddenly you're scrolling

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Speaker 1: in Facebook, and then you're you know, you're, you're you're

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Speaker 1: feeling the roller coaster of of of emotions that is

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Speaker 1: going to happen, that initial surge followed by that that

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Speaker 1: downward trend. Yeah. Well, one more thing I can say

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00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 1: that sort of came up when I was emailing back

430
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: and forth with the listener who got in touch about

431
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 1: his social media experiences. I will say that if you

432
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 1: find yourself wanting to pull back from the most negative

433
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,880
Speaker 1: aspects of social media, but unable to delete your accounts

434
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 1: for some reason. Maybe you need them to stay in

435
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 1: touch or to coordinate on certain issues, or you need

436
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 1: them for work or whatever. I would say that probably

437
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,479
Speaker 1: the best thing you can do is do everything in

438
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 1: your power to not consume any algorithmically recommended content on

439
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 1: these platforms. That means, if you're on Facebook, don't ever

440
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 1: scroll the feed, Just don't scroll, don't click on anything

441
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,199
Speaker 1: that is recommended or suggested. Know exactly what you're going

442
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: to on the site and go there and just go

443
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: to that. The same thing applies to other sort of

444
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 1: semi social media platforms. Don't just scroll, don't click recommended

445
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: videos on YouTube. If you're gonna watch a video on YouTube,

446
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: know what you're gonna watch, and then go watch that

447
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,239
Speaker 1: and just that. Likewise, if you're you're thinking of yourself, Oh,

448
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,439
Speaker 1: I wonder what John Hodgman is the tweeting about, just

449
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 1: go go to his Twitter page. Yeah, don't depend upon

450
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: the stream, the scroll, et cetera. Yeah, don't let it

451
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: decide what you see next. Of course, that's a lot

452
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: easier said than done. I mean, these platforms are designed

453
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,199
Speaker 1: to be very enticing with the automatic recommendation of the

454
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 1: content you see next. Sometimes you might not even realize

455
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: you're doing it, but you clicked the next video that

456
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: was recommended, or you started scrolling. So it can be

457
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: hard to catch yourself. But to whatever extent it's it's

458
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: in your power to do this. Don't let it tell

459
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: you what to see next. Yeah, it's a continuing struggle,

460
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 1: and it's a continuing struggle for us. So yeah, we

461
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 1: encourage you all to just hang in there. Okay. This

462
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: next one is from our listener, Sarah. Sarah says, Hi, guys,

463
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 1: I just listen to the social media as a bummer episode.

464
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 1: Coming on the heel of a week long social media cleanse.

465
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 1: One of the main reasons I still use Facebook is

466
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: to keep up to date with my roller Derby team.

467
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: In fact, because of deleting the app, I missed a

468
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 1: skate park meet up someone was trying to organize for

469
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: extra practice. In that way, social media directly connects me

470
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 1: to real life social activities. At the same time, I

471
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: do often find myself scrolling mindlessly, particularly in situations like

472
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: the bus or other times I don't really know anyone.

473
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: It keeps me from talking to new people and meeting

474
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: strangers because it becomes something to turn to in moments

475
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: I could just talk to the person next to me.

476
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: I find it hard to balance these two opposing forces.

477
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: I'm trying to be better about how long I'm on

478
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: the app, but there is a fear that I won't

479
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: see posts I truly do care about, like a Friends

480
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 1: May your Life announcement or a street festival. I want

481
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 1: to go to the Friends Shares anyway, keep up the

482
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: good work. I'm a graduate student in genetics and have

483
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: incorporated your podcast into the assignments of a science and

484
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 1: society class i'm designing. Thanks Sarah, and Sarah also taunts

485
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: us for being uh initially unable to pronounce jarn Lanier's

486
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: last name as Linear because she points out that we

487
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: are in Atlanta, which is just a little bit south

488
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,880
Speaker 1: of Lake Lanier. Yeah, I have to have been. I'd

489
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: never put those two together, you know, I reading his

490
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 1: name over and over again, I never thought of Lake Lanier. Um,

491
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: And even after I started saying his name correctly, I

492
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: did not associate it with Lake Lanier. Uh So, one

493
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: thing I will say is that this is one of

494
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: the insidious things about platforms, especially Facebook. That Facebook, more

495
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: than all the others I think is the problem here

496
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: because it has it has captured many elements of life

497
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 1: where it's now just expected that people will be on Facebook. Well,

498
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: it's the model of of disruption, right, instead of disrupting

499
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: a particular market or area of commerce, it's the disruption

500
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: of social interaction, which is is even more insidious. I mean,

501
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: that's I think part of their business model is they

502
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: want people to schedule events on Facebook as and to

503
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: get people to only schedule events through Facebook, so that

504
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: you will be in exactly the situation you'll be worried.

505
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: Oh if I don't log on to Facebook, I'm going

506
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: to miss things that I want to go to. Yeah,

507
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: so I can see where there's definitely this is a

508
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: great example if there's a value in it, at the

509
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: very least sustaining a certain you know, percentage of the

510
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 1: population that is not on Facebook and is and and

511
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: and informs people I'm not on Facebook as if nothing

512
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: else to keep this from being the predominant way of

513
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 1: communicating with each other, you know, I mean it already

514
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: is I've been in the same boat. I've missed stuff

515
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 1: in real life because I got an invite on Facebook,

516
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: and I never logged into Facebook and never saw it. Right. Well,

517
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 1: I'm thinking too about say more official things like like

518
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: like school related stuff like thankfully. Uh, you know, I

519
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: get a lot of different communications from my son's school,

520
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: but like Facebook is not the primary uh connection point,

521
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 1: Like they're still depending on on emails, on on text

522
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: messages and uh and robo calls. You know, it's weird

523
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: to say something nice about robo calls, but at least

524
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 1: it's not bummer uh in this in this instance anyway.

525
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: Uh So, yeah, it's I I would be far more

526
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: afraid of a situation where everyone is like, oh, make

527
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,239
Speaker 1: sure you've signed up for Facebook so you can get

528
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: updates about your child. Oh man, one more thing. I

529
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: just had a quick thought about the idea of always

530
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: being able to scroll the feed when you're just otherwise

531
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: idol and you're not doing anything. I think there could

532
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: actually be other risks to this too, not just taking

533
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: you out of the moment, out of your surroundings. I

534
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: think this could be establishing bad habits in the brain.

535
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 1: I just finished reading a book by by the computer

536
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: scientist Cal Newport called Deep Work. It's a it's a

537
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: book that's sort of it's one of the most self

538
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 1: helpy books I think I've actually enjoyed, but it is.

539
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: It was full of a lot of interesting ideas about

540
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: the value of sustained attention and focus and how a

541
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: lot of our our business and technological world is sapping

542
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: our ability to stay focused on long, deep intensity uses

543
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: of attention. And one of the things he talks about

544
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: is the way that you can always just look at

545
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: your phone whenever you're bored sort of trains your brain

546
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 1: to have extremely low tolerance for low intensity stimulation. And

547
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: so this also, he thinks, makes us worse at focusing

548
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: on tasks because we have learned that whenever we're feeling like,

549
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: you know, less than peak stimulation, you just look at

550
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: something else. Right, we're potentially forgetting how to be bored,

551
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: and how to how to roll with being bored, how

552
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: to use our imaginations. And I should say, with more

553
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: and more uh people using their phones at the urinal

554
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: and in the bathroom of public bathrooms, we're not reading

555
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: the stall walls and the other wall above the y.

556
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: There's so much, you know, sharpie based ingenuity that is

557
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: just not being appreciated anymore. All right, Let's look at

558
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: this next email. And also I'll also have that that

559
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: perhaps there has been a drop off in the quality

560
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,959
Speaker 1: of of of of restroom graffiti since more people probably

561
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: have phones than have sharpies. Well, I think there's been

562
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: a drop off in quality of all literature. That's one

563
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: of it. No, I don't know if that's true. I'm

564
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: not gonna be that negativity bias guy. Okay, let's look

565
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: at this next email. This one comes from case Son. Waiter,

566
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: are you gonna do this? Robert? Sure? I'll read this one, um, dear,

567
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind cast. I just recently listened

568
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: to your social media as a Bummer a podcast and

569
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: wanted to share my experience. I actually just deleted my Facebook, Twitter,

570
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: and Instagram a little over a month ago, while I

571
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: am still on Snapchat occasionally. I have seen an overall

572
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: improvement in my life. I have been having more meaningful conversations,

573
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: connecting with others better, and focusing on life improvements. I've

574
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: been working out and have seen a general increase in

575
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: curiosity and desire for understanding. I have the feeling I

576
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: won't be getting back on social media until I see

577
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: some changes for the better within it. Keep exploring reality, Cason. Well,

578
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: thanks Kayson. Uh do you want to go straight onto

579
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: this next one from Nathan to do you want to

580
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: read this? This is from Nathan. Friends, your show keeps

581
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: me company through the challenging bouts of boredom at work.

582
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: Thank you for your efforts. I felt the need to

583
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: respond to your recent social media episode after listening. Depression

584
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: has been a big part of my life in the past,

585
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: and I took a hard look at the way Facebook

586
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: affected my mood and deleted my account after saying goodbye

587
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: to my friends. I had had that account for a decade,

588
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: registering while in UNI when Facebook was still closed to

589
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: the general public and only available to students. I had

590
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: watched the many ways it changed during the period and

591
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: was very unimpressed with the direction things were headed. Afterwards,

592
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: have again to more carefully dissect other areas of my

593
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: life to extract more fulfillment, ultimately moving across the country

594
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: and setting up my life in an area I knew

595
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: to be heavily community oriented with much better weather. I

596
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: then said about fixing the variety of things that caused

597
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: the bouts of depression, and I can say I am

598
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: I am mostly stable person. Now with a much better

599
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: handle on my mood and life in general. I was

600
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: recently informed by my ESSO that you can now use

601
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: Facebook Messenger without needing a Facebook account, so I have

602
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: the light version of Messenger to keep in contact with

603
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: friends and events. I obviously also use Instagram and read it,

604
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: but delete the apps off my phones every time I

605
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: finished using them, which has reduced my mindless scrolling to

606
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: almost zero. I engage in local community through volunteering and

607
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: in person gatherings. Life without Facebook is bliss. I encourage

608
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: anyone who is able to delete their accounts to do so.

609
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: It has literally turned my life around. Nathan. Wow, well, yeah,

610
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: thanks for getting in touch Nathan. That that really hits home. Okay,

611
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: let's take a look at this next one. That is

612
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: a response just a short response to our episode on

613
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,719
Speaker 1: the Bones of the Plumed Serpent ur geom Oology episode

614
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: about ketzel Koadal. This is from there. Our listener, Bridget

615
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: Bridget says, I enjoyed the show overall, but I really

616
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: emailed to respond to your Godzilla comments near the end

617
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: of the episode. I love the Japanese Godzilla movies. I

618
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: went over two hours out of my way to see

619
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: shin Godzilla in the theater. That's that's that. I also

620
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: agree that the bureaucracy going on in the movie added

621
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: to it. This isn't to say I didn't enjoy Big

622
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: G rampaging through the city. I hope Toho does a sequel. Also,

623
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: if you're fans of the Radioactive Dino, there is a

624
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: great book called The Godzilla Fact Sorry I did not

625
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: underline I'm on my phone. That's okay, bridget. It has

626
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: a lot of history about Big G, Tohoe, actors, directors, producers,

627
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: special effects and so on. Awesome, Yeah, shin Godzilla. We've

628
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: we've mentioned before a recent Japanese Godzilla movie that is

629
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: just enthralling. Uh so much of it is bureaucratic response

630
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: to what is going on. And weirdly enough, the thing

631
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: that it that I've seen recently that reminded me the

632
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: most of is the HBO mini series Chernobyl. Oh. Yeah,

633
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: you know a lot of lineups here, you know, especially radiation.

634
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: Radiation does play into the sort of the origin of

635
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: of Godzilla as a as a fictional um you know, contemplation.

636
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: But uh, but you know, both both films have a

637
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: lot of like meetings about what is happening and our

638
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: on our in our very enthralling. I give a slightly

639
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: higher rating to Chernobyl for for a few different reasons,

640
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: but but yeah, Shin Godzilla is terrific. All right Now,

641
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: we already did a whole listener mail episode that was

642
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: just responses to our five part series on psychedelics with

643
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: the special focus on psilocybin, and uh we a lot

644
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: of people got in touch with their thoughts and experiences

645
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: after that one. We got some other really good mail

646
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: on that, so I didn't think we could ignore it,

647
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: so I think we will take a look at a

648
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: few more emails that came in about the psychedelic series, right,

649
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: so yeah, so the next few emails are are definitely

650
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: going to deal with psychedelic substances, so just bear that

651
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: in mind. Yeah, uh, should I do this? First one

652
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 1: from Zerich here hit us with the Zerik email. Okay,

653
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: this is from Zerreg. Zeric says, hey, guys, this was

654
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: a really wonderful series on psychedelics. I really loved it,

655
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: and I hope you have the chance to dedicate more

656
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: future episodes to some more specific topics in the area,

657
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: though at least a short break is probably in order. Uh,

658
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: it might be a while before we come back to

659
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: it in any deep way. Yeah. Um, I'll resist the

660
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: urge to make nine thousand comments and suggestions. But one

661
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: thing that's particularly interesting to me is the relationship between

662
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: classical psychedelics and serotonergic antidepressants such as S sr eyes,

663
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: snur eyes, etcetera. Without boring you with too much neurobiology,

664
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: psychedelics seemed to induce the changes that antidepressants induce over

665
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: weeks or months in just one experience or day. Rather

666
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: than serotonin being the happiness chemical, it would seem that

667
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: these drugs antidepressant effects are more about decreasing it than

668
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: increasing it. Though, as you rightly pointed out, serotonin does

669
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 1: a ton of diverse things at different receptors, in different

670
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: parts of the brain and in different contexts. Either it's

671
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: a long term elevation with an s s R I

672
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: that causes down regulation of the excessive serotonin signaling, or

673
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: a one time massive stimulation with the classical psychedelics that

674
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: does it, but the result is apparently similar. What remains

675
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: unclear and intriguing to me is exactly what the relationship

676
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 1: between those mood effects and the sensory gating effects that

677
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: make psychedelics so unique and interesting. Is some think that

678
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: what they have in common is just the idea that

679
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: it's a kind of global reboot of the brain slash mind.

680
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 1: So I think the answer is probably a lot more

681
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 1: interesting than that. Here's one idea for a related topic.

682
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 1: What would a world with normalized psychedelic use actually look like?

683
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 1: Paullen talks about this a little, but I wish he'd

684
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: explored it a bit more. Should we take the medical route,

685
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: the spiritual and or religious route, a totally secular legalization

686
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,879
Speaker 1: as in a free for all, or something else. Maybe

687
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: they're not mutually exclusive. My instinct is that it would

688
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: be better if psychedelics were not bound to medical, religious,

689
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: or capitalistic institutions, but I don't really know what that

690
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: would look like. I also think it's very important that

691
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 1: they be introduced and used in safe, educated, enlightening contexts,

692
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: though I don't have a ton of confidence in our

693
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 1: society's ability to do this kind of thing. Are there

694
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: any precedents? What should the age limit be? Compared to

695
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: Pollen's idea about psychedelics being wasted on the young? Keep

696
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: doing what you're doing, I'm only twenty four, but I've

697
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: been listening to the show for something like ten years

698
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: and it's been a rewarding and consistent part of my life.

699
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: I'm a graduate student in neuroscience currently, and I definitely

700
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: give the show credit for inspiring and motivating me to

701
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: this point and some psychedelics as well. Best Zarek, Well,

702
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: thanks so much THEREK was always delighted to hear, especially

703
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: from from long term listeners, like that, Yeah, really really

704
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: nice to hear that we may have helped inspire you

705
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: to go into the sciences. Now that the part I I,

706
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: you know, react to the most here, of course, It's

707
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: just that that question what would normalize psychedelic use actually

708
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: look like? Um? And I do agree with the with

709
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: his read that it would be better if corporations, um,

710
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: you know, the large religious organizations and in the medical

711
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: industry didn't have you know, a complete strangle hold on

712
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: these substances. But it is difficult to imagine what it

713
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: would look like. I mean, really, I think that the

714
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: models you have to compare it to are the more

715
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: you know, traditional societies such as you know, Amazonian cultures, etcetera,

716
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: or more or ancient societies that we often don't have

717
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: a completely clear picture of how, how or what specific

718
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: psychedelics were involved in their their daily life. Yeah, I

719
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: mean it does make me think about how even though,

720
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 1: as we discussed in the episode, from a physiological point

721
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,919
Speaker 1: of view, psychedelics are relatively very safe compared to most

722
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: other recreational drugs that people take, and not to say

723
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: there are no risks, but like compared to uh, you know,

724
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 1: cocaine and stimulants and opioids and all that kind of stuff,

725
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: that the risks are very low. But I don't At

726
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: the same time, I don't think that means that there

727
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: couldn't be really damaging, unhealthy uh systems of use for them.

728
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: I just wonder what if if there was like a

729
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: an industry controlling psychedelics the same way that there's an

730
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: industry controlling tobacco or alcohol somehow that I don't I

731
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 1: don't know. It's something about that seems like it could

732
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: go to a very bad place. I don't know exactly

733
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: how right. I mean, we've we've we've seen what happens

734
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: when say somebody like say that the CIA tries to

735
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: use a psychedelic for their own purposes, uh, and it's like,

736
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: that's not an enlightened vision of the future. Uh, you know,

737
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think that, you know, ultimately, it's

738
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 1: not something that that really showed a lot of promise

739
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 1: from mind control in the long run, and so you

740
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: didn't see programs like mk ultra continue. But but yeah,

741
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: you would hate to see it, you know, controlled by

742
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: a corporation. You would hate to see it controlled by

743
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 1: like a you know, a religious um organization that was

744
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: using it for more nefarious purposes or ultimately trying to

745
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: use it for the same thing that that MK ultra

746
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: was interested in the Giltra project, interested in controlling people

747
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 1: through them. Uh, you know, it should be used for

748
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: personal liberation. Uh, you know, I believe that is the stronger,

749
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: more pervasive argument made by uh, you know people throughout

750
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: the decades and most recently in Michael Pollan's book. Um,

751
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a very this is a very

752
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 1: imperfect analogy. But I think to something like like yoga

753
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:52,479
Speaker 1: for instance, like a yoga practice can be very good

754
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: for one's body and state of mind. You can also

755
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: injure yourself through it. If if a teacher doesn't know

756
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: what they're doing, they could potentially help you injure yourself. Um. Likewise,

757
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: you can make comparisons though to more like thoroughly regulated

758
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 1: practices such as medicine. So yeah, it's it's kind of

759
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: uncharted territory because the price the more primal examples that

760
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: we can look to in the past you had it

761
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: was the domain of the shaman, and the shaman kind

762
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: of fulfilled you know, multiple roles in in a particular society.

763
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: Though above all they were a healer and and in

764
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: Western society, and most of our our healer roles or

765
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: are rather tightly control you know, it's certainly medical healing, uh,

766
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: some of the more you know, various other therapeutic practices

767
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 1: as well. So it's one of these things where we

768
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: would have to sort of create a new um, a

769
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: new class of of of healer in our society. You

770
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: would really have to bring back some form of shamanism.

771
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 1: But then who controls the shamans? Right it are they

772
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 1: a part of some uh you know, larger religious institution

773
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: where they are they corporate in nature? We get back

774
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: to these same problems again. Yeah, whether it's religious organizations,

775
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: corporations and business or governments. I mean the world is

776
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: full of institutions that are inherently interested in promoting their

777
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 1: own power and control. And uh, and yeah, it seems

778
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: like all kinds of you know, cultural practices or substances

779
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: are seized one way or another by one of these

780
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: institutions primarily. And yeah, it is hard to imagine. I

781
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: think this is a really tough question. I don't know

782
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: if if we have a good answer for it. Well,

783
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: you know, one thing that Poland gets into in the

784
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: book is he talks about going out and finding a

785
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,959
Speaker 1: essentially a shaman, essentially a psychedelic guide to to take

786
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: him on this experience. And he talked a little about how,

787
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: you know, some of the people he scouted, uh, you know,

788
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: it was it was an easy pass. You know, it

789
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: was like that I just I don't this is not

790
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: the right person. But other people he was very impressed with. So,

791
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that's part of it. Is like

792
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: even if it's completely you know, unregulated in the way

793
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 1: that it's going to be, it is currently you know,

794
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: largely unregulated. And since it is you know completely uh

795
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: you know underground, you're gonna have uh, you know, it's

796
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: just going to be the market of of of Shaman's

797
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: maybe it's a review based or is just word of mouth.

798
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, but but but I guess that's a

799
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: section of the book where he does get into the

800
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: question a little bit. So anyway, yeah, kind of rambling there,

801
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: but especially since I have no answer. Uh so, you know,

802
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: the short answer, though, is it's an open question. All right,

803
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: I guess we need to take a break, but when

804
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: we come back, we'll do a few more of these

805
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: Psychedelic listener mails and then go on to a few

806
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: other topics than Alright, we're back. So here's a short

807
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: one in response to our Psychedelics episode. This is from

808
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: our listener, Tatiana. Tatiana says, hey, guys, short time binge listener,

809
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: love the show, especially enjoyed the five part series on psychedelics.

810
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 1: Do you guys have any plans to delve deeper into

811
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: talking about the self? I know you guys referenced Alan

812
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 1: wattson the Psychedelic series once or twice. Maybe you've already

813
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: done an episode on him. But like I said, short

814
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: time listener, I don't think we have no never he

815
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: comes up from time to time, you know, because he

816
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: had something to say about a lot of these a

817
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 1: lot of the issues that we talked about on the show,

818
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: but but never like a real like Alan Watts themed episode.

819
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: He would be interesting to cover. Yeah, he's uh, kind

820
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,959
Speaker 1: of like Terrence mckinna. He's one of those people who's

821
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: a very captivating public speaker. I find listening to his

822
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: talks is just kind of magical. He's He's definitely an

823
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,760
Speaker 1: individual who I've I've heard more than I've I've read.

824
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: Uh and and I still smile whenever I hear a

825
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: sample from Alan Watts pop up in a mix sort

826
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: of electronic track or even occasionally an industrial track. I

827
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: bet he is. His lectures are one of the most

828
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: highly sampled of any Yeah, I would, I would, I

829
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: would bet so it's like him and Blade on her.

830
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: But his voice is very musical and very whimsical. But

831
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: wise Yeah, yeah, he sounds like a wizard. But anyway, so, uh,

832
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,839
Speaker 1: she continues. I think his book The Taboo Against Knowing

833
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: Who You Are would be an excellent follow up to

834
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: the series and mail bag. The book eloquently sums up

835
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,479
Speaker 1: those ineffable experiences on psychedelics into a cohesive theory about

836
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: the nature of reality and existence at least to me.

837
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: I firmly believe so so many people could benefit from

838
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: understanding Watt's worldview. And I'm tired of sounding like a

839
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 1: hippie to people when I tried to explain it. Please,

840
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: you guys have much better words than I. I I don't

841
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: know about that, but oh. She also says she subscribed

842
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: to Invention. Good work, Tatiana. Everybody should follow your lead

843
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: and subscribe to Invention. Yeah. I would love to do

844
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 1: an episode on Watts in the future. And uh, and

845
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: I've I've given up trying to not sound like a hippie.

846
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: I think that's probably just what it's going to be

847
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: like for the duration. All Right, you want to do

848
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:55,919
Speaker 1: this next email? This one? I know this one, got

849
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: your got your anten, I poked up. This one comes

850
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: to us from the home dad abroad. That is how

851
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,720
Speaker 1: this listener identifies themselves. Hey, those of the blown mind.

852
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: Although I am painfully aware that none of my emails

853
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: have elected enough interest to make it on a listener

854
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: mail episode, it is still my hope that they were

855
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 1: read and may have sparked some type of response around

856
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: the office. Regardless of the past, I do have a

857
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 1: question that I would love to have addressed through a

858
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: means which would expose others to the possibility. Extending out

859
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 1: from previous and controversial set of episodes delving into the

860
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 1: bicameral mind. You yourselves have occasionally brought up the idea

861
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 1: of the bicameral mind hypothesis when discussing many other topics. However,

862
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: it has largely been in jest, or at least in

863
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: a lightened hearted manner um. I would say that it's

864
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: sometimes come up in a lighthearted or addressful manner in

865
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: in other episodes, but I think when we I would argue,

866
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: when we discussed them originally, you know, we we gave

867
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: it a lot of serious consideration. Yeah, I mean, I

868
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: would say it's still one of those things that I'm

869
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,439
Speaker 1: not convinced by the idea like it, you know, it

870
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: it asks you to accept a lot, though I think

871
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: he makes a really interesting case. So it's one of

872
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 1: those that I'm not convinced to buy, but I take

873
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: seriously and remain interested in and would always be open

874
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: to evidence for though I'm not super hopeful that evidence

875
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: for it will ever show up. Alright, Your recent episode

876
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: on Psychedelics and the following feedback episode often referred to

877
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: experiences on psychedelics encompassing in some case a sense of

878
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: ego loss, and in other cases as having encounters with God.

879
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: In many of Your Your and other criticisms of Julian

880
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: Jane's ideas, there has been the claim that, even if

881
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: his ideas are correct, there is no way to test

882
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: for an older form of mental structure in which the

883
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: subconscious mind speaks to the conscious mind as a disconnected being,

884
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: since we are not built that way. And yet here

885
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 1: exists substances which allow one to view themselves from without,

886
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: substances that seem capable of freeing God from the confines

887
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: of our deep unconscious selves for us to examine an

888
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: even question. Additionally, as we know, ego loss is the

889
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 1: separation from the sense of self, which defines our own

890
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 1: conscious awareness of who we are. In James book and

891
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 1: other works, he relates the idea of the God voice

892
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: coming from within and describes humans as experiencing the world

893
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: from a surface perspective, with longer term planning coming from

894
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: that personal God voice or the God voice of a

895
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,240
Speaker 1: stronger personality like that of a leader priest. To spell

896
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: it out from a quick surface vantage point, that there

897
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: would seem to be distinct similarities between the effects of

898
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: psychedelics and the hypothesized functioning of the bicameral mind. To

899
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: further argue this relationship, psychedelic experiences don't seem to be

900
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 1: burdened by language, but instead by imagery and visualizations that

901
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: are open to interpretation. This is much like the non

902
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: linguistic side of the brain, which is still capable of

903
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 1: communication even with a severed corpus colossum, only through visual means. Anyway,

904
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: there is a question in there somewhere the home data abroad. Well, yeah,

905
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: that's an interesting idea. I don't know if I'm fully

906
00:47:58,080 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: following all the way, but but I see some of

907
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: the connections you're making there. Yeah. And um, you know, uh,

908
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 1: Terence Terence McKenna, who had discussed in Psychedelics episodes a bit.

909
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 1: You know, he actually references Jane's work a few times,

910
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: once in Food of the Gods, but also in some

911
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: of his other writings and talks that I've been looking at. Um.

912
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: But in a nutshell, mckinneth thought that the concept was

913
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: very interesting. I mean, James and McKenna both were contemplating

914
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: the same thing, right, The emergence of the modern mind

915
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: from its more primal predecessor. And as we've discussed, this

916
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 1: is a shift that that did occur over the course

917
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: of our evolution. I mean the details of it in

918
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: the you know, the exact mechanism of it or or

919
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 1: what we're so so many people were trying to figure out.

920
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,919
Speaker 1: But I mean, certainly the consciousness, the state of mind

921
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: that we have today is not the state of mind

922
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: that are you know, are more ancient ancestors had. At

923
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: least you can get into discussions about where the change occurs,

924
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: how gradual the changes. But certainly, uh, I think we

925
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: can we can state, uh, you know, on a quickly

926
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: that that the way that we think now is not

927
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 1: the way that our pre human ancestors thought. Right. Well,

928
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 1: I mean, one thing that McKenna and Jane's both have

929
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 1: in common is that they posit a sort of point

930
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 1: of shift with with a with a cause that can

931
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: be identified through which modern consciousness in humans came into play,

932
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 1: as opposed to a lot of other people would probably

933
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 1: assume that the way the human mind is now is

934
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 1: something that sort of gradually and continuously evolved over time.

935
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: There wasn't like a point of shift where something changed

936
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: in a really important way, right, But even in a

937
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,720
Speaker 1: more gradual scenario, you do end up like contemplating, like, well, okay,

938
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 1: is is everybody at the same rate in this race

939
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: towards modern consciousness? Or is it You're gonna have a

940
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: situation where some people are are more h you know,

941
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: modern le conscious than others. Yeah, it is weird. I

942
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 1: mean it's hard to imagine, you assume, I don't know.

943
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: I mean, is there even a way to measure levels

944
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:03,399
Speaker 1: of consciousness? That seems it seems hard to do. Yeah, so,

945
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: um so, Yeah. Then mckinna does bring up James's work

946
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: in some of his own writings. McKenna's main criticism, though,

947
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: was that Jane's rarely considered hallucinatory substances in his hypothesis. Um,

948
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 1: you know, it comes up a time or two in

949
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: Jane's key work, but really almost in passing. And you know, granted,

950
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: James tend to tended to focus on the areas and

951
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,919
Speaker 1: languages of of of his own expertise, and was rather

952
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 1: upfront about that, like, you know, pointing out that he

953
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 1: did not speak Mandarins so he or read Mandarin, so

954
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 1: he did not explore Chinese culture. For examples of the

955
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 1: bicameral mind. UM. And mckinna was, of course laser focused

956
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: on the on the role of psychedelics in their role

957
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 1: in the past, the present, in the future of our species.

958
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 1: So he seems to have admired a lot about bicameralism,

959
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,280
Speaker 1: but felt that, you know, that this was a glaring

960
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: hole in the overall work. Um, which I mean, I

961
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: I kind of agree with McKenna on on that, you know,

962
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 1: I mean too well. I mean, he yeah, he's naturally

963
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 1: got a very hallucinogen centric view, right, and and I

964
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: mean it's a strong case to be made for the

965
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,359
Speaker 1: use of these substances in various ancient societies. And if

966
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: you're trying to form a model of uh, you know,

967
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: like James's model, uh, it does seem that you should

968
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: incorporate hallucogens in there in some way, shape or form.

969
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 1: But anyway, UM, I guess the other way you could

970
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: look at it is if someone, some enterprising person out

971
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: there wanted to, you know, create a combined theory of

972
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 1: like McKinnon bicameralism, um. You know, that would that would

973
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 1: be interesting. I'd probably read that if you put it

974
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: in essay form now I do think the email are

975
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: too an approximation basically identified. My you know, main issue

976
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 1: with with the bicameral mind hypothesis, and would also somewhat

977
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: apply to the mckinna hypothesis, is that to whatever extent

978
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 1: the case they pers and already lines up with known evidence.

979
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: It's one of those things that I won't I'm not

980
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: going to say it's impossible to have, you know, better evidence.

981
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: That people use the word prove, I don't. I don't

982
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: know if prove is ever a very useful word in

983
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 1: like historical scientific theories, because you're not dealing with like

984
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 1: a mathematical proof, but if you're just talking about like

985
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 1: presenting you know, really conclusive evidence for some kind of

986
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 1: historical hypothesis, and that is sometimes done in you know,

987
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:32,399
Speaker 1: physical historical sciences like paleontology and stuff. I won't say

988
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: it's impossible, but I will say I imagine it's going

989
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: to be very hard, even if one of these theories

990
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: happens to be correct, to find the evidence that would

991
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: show that it was correct. You could you can kind

992
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,839
Speaker 1: of like tinker around at the margins, you know, and

993
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: say like, oh, here's something that would kind of fit

994
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: with what with what chains or what McKenna was saying.

995
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, as like fun and interesting as these theories

996
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: can be, I think there's it's very likely there's just

997
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: always going to be the evidence gap. They're like, how

998
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: do you go farther with it? Now? One key difference

999
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: between mckinna and UH and James is of course that

1000
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: that James was primarily interested in the past, but but

1001
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 1: mckinna was also extremely interested in the future. So I

1002
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 1: think that like the other side of of mckinna's writings, Uh,

1003
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,320
Speaker 1: you know, concerned the question of where are we going

1004
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: from here? And how could psychedelic substances play a role?

1005
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:28,919
Speaker 1: How how many they have not only played a role

1006
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: in the evolution of consciousness, how could they play a

1007
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 1: role in the necessary continued evolution of consciousness? Could they

1008
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: help us reach a place that we need to achieve

1009
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: in order to avoid the essentially, you know, the catastrophes

1010
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: of the modern age and and ultimately even like leave

1011
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 1: the planet and become a planetary species something that he said,

1012
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 1: he argues is is incompatible with our current state of consciousness? Yeah,

1013
00:53:57,800 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: uh yeah, yeah, And I mean he he had a

1014
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: lot of resting metaphors about that kind of thing, like

1015
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: he remember one talk of his I listened to where

1016
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: he talked about the the brain being a computer that's

1017
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 1: running an operating system, and that operating system is culture. Uh,

1018
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: and that you know that psychedelics are like a way

1019
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: of wiping the hard drive, like erasing the operating system

1020
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: and getting back to the deeper level of the machine,

1021
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 1: which obviously was the thing that he was like Advocating

1022
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: metaphors like that can be really compelling, but they also

1023
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: show that McKenna was not just concerned Yeah, like you're saying,

1024
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:34,240
Speaker 1: like Jane's with coming up with the theory that explains

1025
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 1: some mysteries about the past and about the human mind,

1026
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 1: but was he was an advocate for a worldview He

1027
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 1: was like human humanity should be more like this. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1028
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 1: Though it doesn't make it brings them back to our

1029
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 1: previous email talking about who who will be the masters

1030
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: of the psychedelic substances? If you're making an argument that

1031
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 1: um that that a psychedelic evolution is necessary for in

1032
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 1: a planetary trap all um an interplanetary culture, Uh, I

1033
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: mean interplanetary travel is a megaproject generally best left to

1034
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 1: major institutions that can control people, or at least, you know,

1035
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 1: can control massive projects. Uh So, if you're going with

1036
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:19,760
Speaker 1: that argument, maybe, uh, the psychedelics should be in in

1037
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: uh in control of of like you know, corporate or

1038
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,839
Speaker 1: or governmental shamans. I don't know, I don't particularly like

1039
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: that that idea, but if you're if you're lumping uh,

1040
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 1: you know, psychedelics and space travel together, Uh, it sounds

1041
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 1: like that's where you would place the trust. All right. Next,

1042
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:40,760
Speaker 1: I think we're gonna look at a couple of messages

1043
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: from our episode about Surviving a Great Falls is an

1044
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 1: episode where we talked about stories of people surviving falling

1045
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: from extremely great heights, such as out of an airplane,

1046
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: and like, what do these stories tend to have in common? Uh? So?

1047
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 1: The first one is in response to what we mentioned

1048
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 1: about how being bigger is worse when you're falling, even

1049
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 1: though it increases your surface area, which should increase your

1050
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 1: drag through the air. Why does gravity win out over

1051
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:06,839
Speaker 1: drag as you get bigger? Like? How come? I think

1052
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:08,879
Speaker 1: it was Haldane who said, you know, the mouse will

1053
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: survive a fall down a mind shaft, but a horse

1054
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: will splat uh, will splash or something. This is from

1055
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: our listener, Jeremy. Jeremy says, Hi, Robert and Joe, big

1056
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: fan of the show. Just a quick comment on the

1057
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: episode about surviving a fall. The reason why if you're bigger,

1058
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: gravity wins over air resistance is because mass goes up

1059
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 1: on the cube, but surface area only goes up on

1060
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 1: the square. Kind regards Jeremy short to the point, and

1061
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: I think that's correct. I think that's a similar problem

1062
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: you encounter when you imagine organisms getting bigger and bigger

1063
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,799
Speaker 1: and having more of a problem dissipating heat from their bodies, right,

1064
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 1: because as they grow, as they get up there, their

1065
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:47,879
Speaker 1: their mass goes up in a cubic way, which means

1066
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 1: they're going to have more and more heat issues inside

1067
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 1: the body. But the surface area on which to dissipate

1068
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 1: that heat only goes up on a square. All right.

1069
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 1: Just when comes to us from Phil, Greetings, Robert and Joe.

1070
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: I just finished listening to your episode how to Survive

1071
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 1: a Great Fall. It reminded me of the two thousand

1072
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 1: nine TV remake of Day of the Triffids. Towards the

1073
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 1: beginning of the film, a massive solar eruption renders everyone

1074
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,360
Speaker 1: on a particular flight blind, including the pilots, save for

1075
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 1: one man played by Eddie Izard, who happens to be

1076
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 1: napping at the time. As the plane goes down, Iszard

1077
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: takes this opportunity to grab as many flotation devices as

1078
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: possible and pat himself within the airplane bathroom. The plane

1079
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: crashes and Izard finds himself to be the sole survivor.

1080
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 1: Based on what I learned in the podcast from anecdotal evidence,

1081
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: this seems like he could be a viable option for survival,

1082
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: albeit a just wanted to share this tidbit as I

1083
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: believe I've heard you guys mentioned both Iszard and Day

1084
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: of the Triffids in the past, and it seems to

1085
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 1: tie in neatly with the episode. Hope you both found

1086
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 1: this interesting. Keep up the great work, Phil. I have

1087
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 1: to admit I have I've never read nor seen any

1088
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: of that adaptations of Day of the Triffids, but I

1089
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 1: know that I should. I know that this is uh.

1090
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:57,959
Speaker 1: This is a key hole in my like my sci

1091
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 1: fi key hole key hole that is, it is a

1092
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 1: It is a is a notable hole in my viewing history,

1093
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: but also potentially a way that I might unlock new

1094
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 1: thoughts and ideas if I were just to finally view it.

1095
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 1: Good save there. Okay, this next one comes from our

1096
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: listener Josh. This is also about falling out of an airplane.

1097
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: Robert and Joe just finished listening to your episode on

1098
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 1: how to Survive a Great Fall. As always, it was fantastic.

1099
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:24,479
Speaker 1: Leve all your work and your podcast is what got

1100
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 1: me started on podcast in general. I'm running today about

1101
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 1: a personal connection to the idea of landing on snow safely.

1102
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 1: In the nineteen fifties, my grandfather was in the army

1103
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: and based out of Alaska. His unit was on ski

1104
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 1: patrol across Alaska, watching for Russian activity. The belief of

1105
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 1: his commanders at the time was that if the Russians

1106
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: were to attack Alaska, they could have troops jump out

1107
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 1: of a plane at low altitude with no parachute and

1108
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: land on the snowpack fairly safely. They estimated any such

1109
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 1: Russian unit would be fifty combat effective after no parachute.

1110
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 1: After a no parachute jump onto a snow pack. I

1111
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:02,959
Speaker 1: suppose what they would give up in casualties they would

1112
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: gain in the surprise advantage of not having big targets

1113
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 1: hanging in the air. I wish I could provide more

1114
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: details with My grandfather is long passed, and I just

1115
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 1: remember the story he told us when we were young.

1116
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 1: Thanks for all you do, Josh. I was looking for

1117
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 1: evidence of this. I couldn't find anything to back up

1118
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 1: the idea that the Russians would actually intentionally jump out

1119
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 1: of planes without parachutes. But I did find other references

1120
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: on the Internet to this rumor as like being shared

1121
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: by members of the American Armed forces. Uh so it

1122
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 1: does look to me like at least some American you know,

1123
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 1: military leaders thought this. Well you could imagine it being,

1124
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: you know, something that would be factored into the Cold

1125
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:44,439
Speaker 1: War competition of just saying like, okay, here's something that

1126
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 1: is feasible. Maybe they are doing it, or I mean,

1127
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 1: it could also be something where the Russians, uh where

1128
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 1: either side really could have could have just put it

1129
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 1: out there as a as a bit of false information

1130
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 1: to discuss this before. It's like the Russians have psychic assassins,

1131
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 1: Well we need psychic assassins. Actually nobody had psychic assassins.

1132
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 1: But it's just like one of those uh, pointless excitations

1133
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 1: of the other side's fomo about certain war powers. Maybe

1134
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 1: we should be throwing people out of airplanes into snow banks. Uh.

1135
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 1: You know, if the enemy is doing it, then we

1136
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 1: need to look into it as well. All right, here's

1137
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 1: another one. This one comes to us from Cindy, Hi, Robert,

1138
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 1: and Joe. This is the third time I have written.

1139
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: I know you guys get tons of emails, so you

1140
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 1: can't right back. So I'm going to trust it when

1141
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: you say that you still read all of them. You

1142
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 1: may already be aware of this book or even own

1143
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 1: it already, but if not, I highly recommend it. It

1144
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 1: is quite simply awesome, and it is well written as well.

1145
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 1: I believe it would be up at least one of

1146
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 1: your alleys. I think it would be up both of

1147
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 1: our alleys. Uh. The book is titled Paperbacks from Hell

1148
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 1: by Grady Hendricks and Uh. I have not picked up

1149
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 1: a copy of this yet, but it is a subtitle

1150
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: The Twisted History of seventies and eighties Horror Fiction, and

1151
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 1: it seems to be to revolve entirely or around like

1152
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 1: the amazing, often skull based artwork that you find on

1153
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,600
Speaker 1: these old paperbacks, paperbacks that just that enraptured me when

1154
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 1: I was a child, and still whenever I encounter them,

1155
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 1: either in a used bookstore, uh on a like, or

1156
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 1: if I'm on Amazon just looking around at old books,

1157
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 1: or if I am at a beach house and I

1158
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 1: find one of these squirreled away, I instantly geek out.

1159
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 1: So this does look amazing, all right. We got a

1160
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: couple of emails about our episode on the Electric micro Bland.

1161
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 1: This first one was from Jamie. It includes a photo.

1162
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that you out there can't see it. We'll

1163
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 1: try to describe it. Jamie says, Hey, guys, just listen

1164
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 1: to your episode on the Electric micro Bland and heard

1165
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,439
Speaker 1: you talking about the garden gnome with light up eyes.

1166
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 1: Now this was something I think we didn't talk about

1167
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 1: having seen. We just proposed, right, yeah, that it must exist. Okay,

1168
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 1: Jamie's got the inside scoop. Jamie says, my sister in

1169
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 1: law has a fear of garden gnomes. So one day

1170
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 1: when I was in a local grocery store and happened

1171
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 1: upon this electric garden gnome, I had to take a

1172
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 1: photo to share with her, and now I can share

1173
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: it with you too. Imagine looking out into your garden

1174
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: to see these glowing eyes staring back at you. Thanks

1175
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 1: for another show, Jamie, and Jamie attaches a photo that

1176
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: is a regular sort of I don't know your stone

1177
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 1: colored garden noome with the beard and the cute little

1178
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 1: stubby fingers, except has these nightmare welding goggle eyes with

1179
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: with the it's got the look inside of like the

1180
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 1: highly reflective backing with the powerful led bowl. But I

1181
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 1: don't know. It looks like it would shine through your soul. Yeah,

1182
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:36,439
Speaker 1: it looks like it looks like the dead lights. That's

1183
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 1: what they looked like. Um. It is a horrifying gnome

1184
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 1: if I've ever seen one, But I'm glad that Jamie

1185
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 1: sent it in. Do you want to do this? Next

1186
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 1: one from Kegan? Should we close out here? Sure, let's

1187
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 1: do it. Hi, Robert and Joe, I've been listening to

1188
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 1: your podcast for a bit more than a year and

1189
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 1: a half now, occupying my time at a variety of

1190
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 1: jobs between parking rental cars and working on governmental contracts.

1191
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 1: I love listening to your insights on into all the

1192
01:02:57,680 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 1: all the different topics and thought experiments you cover, But

1193
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 1: one that I particularly love is when Robert gets into

1194
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons creatures and either their feasibility in the

1195
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 1: real world creatures that may have inspired them, or just

1196
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 1: how this topic could make a great dungeon creature adventure.

1197
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 1: I'm curious, Robert, have you ever thought about doing a

1198
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 1: more D and D related episode or possibly starting up

1199
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 1: a personal podcast delving into such things, possibly a Facebook

1200
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 1: group that homebrews based on your episodes. Uh. Dungeons and

1201
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 1: Dragons is a hobby close to my heart and bring

1202
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 1: in bringing real world inspirations into it or getting into

1203
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 1: interesting real world topics because of it makes me just giddy.

1204
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 1: Your most recent episode, Electric microbe Land, is already giving

1205
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 1: me a few ideas for a news that can shoot

1206
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: out wires to either drain its enemies or pump them

1207
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 1: full of electricity and use this ability to heal its neighbors,

1208
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 1: regardless of whether you decide to make something separate or

1209
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 1: interject a reference every once in a while. Thanks for

1210
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: bringing a favorite hobby of mine into such an amazing podcast, Robert,

1211
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: and thank you for asking so many questions when it

1212
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 1: comes up. Joe, keep on rolling strong, Keagan, Oh well,

1213
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 1: thanks Keegan. Um Yeah, I mean I love talking about

1214
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 1: you know, the Dungeons and Dragons mythos, So you know,

1215
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 1: to whatever extent we can incorporate more entries from the

1216
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 1: Monster Manual in the future, I would I would love

1217
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 1: that we have talked about potentially doing an episode on

1218
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 1: like Dungeons and Dragons and role playing in sort of

1219
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 1: the psychology of it. I've kind of done a little

1220
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 1: uh uh in nosing around for potential sources on that UM.

1221
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:32,440
Speaker 1: But I can say, you know, without a shadow of

1222
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 1: doubt that that more monsters will come up on the

1223
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 1: show in the future. I'm not sure which ones, but

1224
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 1: there's just so many great monsters in the in the

1225
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: in the Monster Manual, no doubt. I keep getting envious

1226
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 1: that this is gonna be like the saddest, nerdiest statement

1227
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 1: anybody has ever made. But it's that I've always wanted

1228
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:54,040
Speaker 1: to play D and D. Yeah, I mean, it's it

1229
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 1: can be hard to find, you know, the right opportunity

1230
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 1: to I went for like what twenty years or more

1231
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:04,920
Speaker 1: without playing probably more probably like twenty five years between

1232
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 1: playing it in UM like junior high and then playing

1233
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 1: it again as an adult. So it's but it's it's

1234
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:14,960
Speaker 1: still there. It's it's thriving it's uh, and you know

1235
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 1: you can. It's more it's more publicly accessible and acceptable

1236
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 1: these days. I feel I've been around people playing it,

1237
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: and I may have mentioned this on the show before,

1238
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 1: but something that always struck me about it is that,

1239
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:30,440
Speaker 1: maybe more so than any other activity I'd ever witnessed,

1240
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:33,760
Speaker 1: it seemed like a thing that could be magical if

1241
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 1: you have the right group, but that one person can

1242
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 1: easily completely ruin it. Yeah, I mean it is a

1243
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 1: social my my philosophy on it anyway, is it it

1244
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 1: is a social communal exercise and and and as such, Yeah,

1245
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:50,920
Speaker 1: everybody has to be kind of on the same wavelength.

1246
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:53,920
Speaker 1: Everyone has to You've got to have the group has

1247
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 1: to have a certain vibe for it to work. So

1248
01:05:55,680 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 1: I've talked to people who are like, yeah, I tried it,

1249
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,480
Speaker 1: and I felt like the d M was a bit

1250
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,560
Speaker 1: Tyranne Nicole or you know, some people were taking it

1251
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 1: serious and some people were goofy about it, and uh,

1252
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:08,440
Speaker 1: you know, that's that is one of the challenges. You

1253
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:10,280
Speaker 1: gotta find the right group. You got to find a

1254
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:12,400
Speaker 1: you know, a group that you fit in with, either

1255
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 1: in you know, in real life, in a physical gaming setting,

1256
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 1: or even if you're doing something remote, which a lot

1257
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 1: of people do these days. All right, we have one

1258
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 1: last email, and it brings us back, as all things should,

1259
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: to the Sacred Mountain. Right, let's go up that slope.

1260
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:31,960
Speaker 1: This is from Kyle. Kyle says, Hi, guys, I'm still

1261
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: at work, but couldn't resist your call to mountaineers as

1262
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 1: I have a personal story to share related to your

1263
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:39,919
Speaker 1: Sacred Mountain episodes. So I'll make this a quick one.

1264
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 1: I hiked to Everest base camp in fifteen and had

1265
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 1: a very strange experience the night before we arrived at

1266
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 1: base camp over five thousand meters or seventeen thousand feet,

1267
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 1: I woke in the middle of the night and completely

1268
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 1: believed time was running backwards, a feeling that is difficult

1269
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 1: to describe the way it involved, a panic sensation as

1270
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 1: though I would lose my prog rest by having to

1271
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:05,200
Speaker 1: rewind my previous grueling day of hiking, possibly backwards, and

1272
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:09,160
Speaker 1: a feeling of total helplessness. I remember walking back and forth,

1273
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:13,439
Speaker 1: practicing walking, checking that time was indeed working. I think

1274
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 1: I convinced myself time was okay when I saw somebody

1275
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 1: else walking perfectly normally, not backwards, to the toilet, not

1276
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:23,440
Speaker 1: what I would call a toilet. I think the strange

1277
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:26,880
Speaker 1: experience lasted about five to ten minutes or uh he

1278
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:31,200
Speaker 1: sugg maybe minus ten minutes, so not exactly quick. The

1279
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 1: next day I was fine, relatively as I was already

1280
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 1: suffering minor headaches from that altitude. I asked around in

1281
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:39,920
Speaker 1: the morning and most of the experienced hikers and locals

1282
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:42,800
Speaker 1: thought it was a weird one too. A Serba recommended

1283
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 1: that lots of garlic and from memory, I think this

1284
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 1: affects dilation of blood capillaries. Definitely required fact checking. It

1285
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 1: seemed to help anyway, as I did not experience any

1286
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 1: more hallucinations over the next week or so. On the

1287
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 1: way down side, note, just imagine the smell of a

1288
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 1: nineteen year old guy who has not showered properly in

1289
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:05,880
Speaker 1: two weeks, heavily eating garlic with daily strenuous activity. I

1290
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 1: was almost proud. I was nineteen years old at the time,

1291
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:12,960
Speaker 1: traveling with some friends from the Raise and Give Society

1292
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:16,679
Speaker 1: from the University of Leeds, UK, with no mental illness

1293
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,640
Speaker 1: and was relatively fit. To date, I have not experienced

1294
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:22,559
Speaker 1: any similar reality bending episode, and in the end it

1295
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 1: had caused me no harm, though I confess I am

1296
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:27,760
Speaker 1: tempted sometimes double checked the bedside clock if I stir

1297
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 1: in the night. I've never emailed you guys before, though

1298
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:33,599
Speaker 1: you have accompanied me in my headphones for many years now,

1299
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:36,720
Speaker 1: I believe, even perhaps on my Himalayan hike before my

1300
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 1: phone died, and writing in has been on my perpetual

1301
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:41,639
Speaker 1: to do list. So I would like to say thank

1302
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 1: you to the whole team. I recommend you and your

1303
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 1: other podcasts whenever in conversation. Uh, and I drop a

1304
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:50,599
Speaker 1: fact theory explanation for our weird universe that you guys

1305
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 1: have armed me with all the best. Kyle, Oh, well

1306
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 1: that's not that's great to hear. I mean, the the

1307
01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:59,639
Speaker 1: last part the trials and the mountains informative to hear.

1308
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:02,400
Speaker 1: But but I can see that that was that was

1309
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:05,479
Speaker 1: an ordeal. Yeah, well, I mean it was part of

1310
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:08,719
Speaker 1: what we're talking about, like this question about the effects

1311
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 1: of altitude on possible hallucinations, especially in people who didn't

1312
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:15,880
Speaker 1: experience hallucinations in other contexts. Yeah, that's interesting. And then

1313
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:18,639
Speaker 1: also like the I assume the effects of like all

1314
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:22,080
Speaker 1: that um that hiking and climbing on the mental state,

1315
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:25,200
Speaker 1: you know it reminds me of you know, we we've

1316
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 1: discussed dreams again recently, but when you've when I've been

1317
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:30,679
Speaker 1: in the water on a boat or in the surf,

1318
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:33,880
Speaker 1: and then you have that sensation of remaining in it

1319
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 1: and it kind of affects your your your mental state

1320
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:39,760
Speaker 1: and even your dreams. I wonder if that's playing a

1321
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:43,320
Speaker 1: role here to this idea of of marching forward and

1322
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:47,680
Speaker 1: that being a rate of passage through time. Has an

1323
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:51,400
Speaker 1: interesting uh, interesting bit of listener mail there. Yeah, and

1324
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:53,559
Speaker 1: there's still more. That's the sad part. We we were

1325
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:55,040
Speaker 1: not able to get to all of it. There's an

1326
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:57,920
Speaker 1: excellent fatberg a listener mail. We're just going to have

1327
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:00,800
Speaker 1: to hold till next time. But let's let's try not

1328
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 1: to forget that, right, But we're gonna put it. We're

1329
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:06,680
Speaker 1: gonna put it away in the fat bird cooler and

1330
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:10,360
Speaker 1: we'll return to it in the meantime. Hey, everybody there,

1331
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:12,080
Speaker 1: there are plenty of other episodes of Stuff to Blow

1332
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 1: your Mind over at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot

1333
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:16,320
Speaker 1: com and if you want to look up invention, that's

1334
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:19,280
Speaker 1: it Invention pod dot com. Those are the I guess

1335
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:21,439
Speaker 1: you could say the twin mother ships that you can

1336
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:24,200
Speaker 1: check out Those are the O and OH websites for

1337
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:26,600
Speaker 1: our show. But of course you can find our shows

1338
01:10:26,640 --> 01:10:29,559
Speaker 1: just about anywhere wherever you get your podcast, and we

1339
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:31,599
Speaker 1: we asked that wherever you do get them, if there's

1340
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 1: a way to rate, review and subscribe to our shows,

1341
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:38,600
Speaker 1: just do that. That's a great way to have help us.

1342
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:41,120
Speaker 1: And of course just tell folks about it about these

1343
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:44,519
Speaker 1: shows in the real world. That also helps big time.

1344
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:48,320
Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer, Maya Cole.

1345
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:50,160
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

1346
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:52,519
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest

1347
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 1: topic for the future to maybe have your mail featured

1348
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:58,639
Speaker 1: on future listener Mail episode, you can email us at

1349
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:12,040
Speaker 1: contact that's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff

1350
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:14,040
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radio's

1351
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:16,360
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,

1352
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1353
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:25,600
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.