WEBVTT - Bringing Soap Operas to Afghanistan 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.559 You're listening to Part Time Genius, a production of Kaleidoscope 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:15.600 and iHeartRadio. Hey there, podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius. 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:19.759 It's Mongish Heatiguler here. Your friend Mango Will is not 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:23.960 here today in studio. Instead, I'm doing an interview with 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.960 my good pal Sad Moseani. He's the author of a 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:32.280 memoir called Radio Free Afghanistan. He's the founder of a 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:36.240 radio station there called Armand FM and a TV station 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.519 in Afghanistan called Tolo. He's been on the Time one 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:43.479 hundred he has a lengthy, lengthy resume. He is a 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:47.520 media savant, someone who's helped bring music and culture back 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:51.280 to Afghanistan in a post Taliban period after the fall 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:56.360 of Afghanistan. And he's someone that I watched tirelessly working 0:00:56.400 --> 0:01:00.200 the phones after the fall of Afghanistan, making trip to 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.040 Downing Street and the White House to help so many 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:07.760 people in crisis to get planes there, to secure seats 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.280 on planes so that his employees and friends and anyone 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:13.920 he knew could get out. He's just a gem of 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.160 a person and I'm thrilled to have him on the show. 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:16.920 Let's dive in. 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.280 Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm here with my good 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:44.480 pal Sad Mussani, and I'm so excited to introduce him 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.039 to you. Sod has a new book out, a memoir 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.800 called Radio Free Afghanistan. Sad, thank you for joining me here. 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.200 Thank you, thank you. It's good to have friends in 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:56.200 high places like yourself. 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:03.040 I don't know about high places your praises. So let's 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:05.040 talk a little bit about your background, because you have 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:08.840 this incredible story of growing up in different countries. It's 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.920 obviously comes from a hard place. But tell me about 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:13.680 where you were brought up and then how you end 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.200 up going to places like Tokyo and Australia. 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.120 Well, I was born in London, son of an Afghan diplomat, 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:23.720 on Saint George's Day at Saint George's Hospital, and then 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.519 when I was about three, we moved back to Afghanistan. 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:31.040 As a matter of fact, my parents drove from Europe 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.079 all the way to Afghanistan. Oh wow, Well, I mean, 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:38.960 people forget how safe and stable the region was in 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:40.280 the sixties. 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.480 And what a popular trip that was right for every 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:46.280 sort of hippie. Take a couple of cameras and trade 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:48.400 them in for money and take the overland tour. 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.280 Yeah, my parents. I think there was a convoy of 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:55.400 three or four families, but it was not unusual for 0:02:55.480 --> 0:03:00.080 people to drive right across Europe and vice versa. And 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.320 when I was about seven, we moved to Pakistan, where 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.480 my father again was serving at the embassy. The diplomatic kids, 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:09.800 you always have two three years outside, then you go 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:13.040 back again. When I was twelve, my father was posted 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:18.119 to the embassy in Tokyo, and while we were living 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:21.600 in Japan, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. My father had to 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:25.480 resign his post, and when I was sixteen, we immigrated 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:29.239 to Australia. This is junior high school and high school, 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.720 and as I became an adult, I was a NAUSI. 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.400 Tell me about what Afghanistan meant to you as refugees, 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:37.120 and like how you pictured it. 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.200 Well, we left Afghanistan when I was twelve, so I 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.440 have vivid memories of my childhood, whether it was my 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:44.640 grandfather's orchard. 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:46.680 And you write about the colors too, right, like the 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:47.520 purples and. 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:49.680 The you know, everything was so bright. I always thought 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.840 it was my imagination, but the soil is so fertile 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:58.080 and everything can grow there. For us, those memories sustained 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.160 us for a long time. But the important thing, you 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.760 know is, perhaps with your family, your father decided one day, 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.480 I'm going to immigrate to the US and we're not 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:10.720 coming back. But for us, my father never uttered those words. 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:17.039 We immigrated to Australia out of necessity and it didn't 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.239 seem permanent, so we never had closure. We always felt 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.520 we would go back, because as diplomatic kids, you always 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.640 do go back. So we were always looking for that 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:30.120 opportunity to return. And you know, we were presented with 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:32.440 a chance to go back in late two thousand and 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.480 one when the Americans top of the Taliban regime. 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.359 So tell me about actually getting back to Afghanistan. In 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.039 the book, you talk about Terminal two in Dubai being 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:44.680 this place that was shabby but a place that you 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:45.279 come to love. 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:48.520 Yeah, it was like you know the bar scene from 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:52.800 the Star Wars film. You know, all types of characters 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:57.920 and the outfits and turbans and hats, and I'll never 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.200 forget the gate opening and the these guys entered wearing 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:06.400 loafers and the cravats and blazers and they looked at us, 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.159 you know, the Afghans and the Pakistanis and the Central 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:11.640 Asians and the Iraqis, and they were horrified. They just 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:17.000 wouldn't move for about thirty eight seconds. The wonderful thing 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:21.839 about Dubai is that it is the gateway for all 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.760 these difficult places. I mean, Dubai has become a fashionable 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:27.359 place to go to now, but in those days it 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.839 really served the neighboring countries and it was a hub. 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:35.000 So we had to fly into Carbo by Dubai. You 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.000 still have to fly into Kabo by Dubai. The first 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.680 flight was actually very difficult to get on because they 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.280 only had like one flight every couple of days and 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.279 it was completely solidly booke time and we had to 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.120 go and schmooze a whole bunch of people to be 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.520 able to get those tickets, which we did. But entering 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:56.719 the Afghan airspace was quite an emotional moment because so 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:01.240 many people had longed to return and this flight and 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:03.440 those days there would allow people to smoke, so there 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:08.440 was a smoke in the air, kids screaming, and the 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.240 only thing that was missing was like farm animals, you know, 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:14.640 which you do get on some flights in Central Asia. 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.400 But it was an interesting moment because when the pilot 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.640 announced that we've entered the Afghan airspace. Everyone went very quiet. 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:22.120 There was an emotional moment for. 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:23.440 All, and. 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:28.400 Then the plane landed and some people were kissing the 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:32.680 ground and some others were praying, and you not partly 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.240 because they survived the Ariana flight. I mean that in 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:38.080 itself was a relief. But to be back home. You know. 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.000 I don't know if you know much about Carble, but 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.960 it's about two thousand meters above sea. The air is crisp, 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:47.320 the skies are always bright and blue, and its surrounded 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:51.480 by snowcapped hills. It's quite dramatic and when you come 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:52.880 out of the aircraft, it hits you. 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.800 It's remarkable. Now, in the book, you mentioned you still 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.400 have a memory of the streets and navigating your way around. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.920 How is it that you retained all that well memory? 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.640 I mean, I think we never remember from when we 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.760 were three straight to when you're like in your thirties, right, 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.320 So it's borrowed, right, You just passed it on, you know, 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:16.600 year after year after year. So I think the roads 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:22.120 that I was familiar with were just me in my head, 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:25.800 driving in the backseat of my father's car from A 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:28.520 to B to C to D So I kept on 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.640 passing those memories on until I got back. 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.240 You know, there's this extraordinary story in the book about 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:37.920 your father trying to recover your childhood home from this mujahi. 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:41.200 After you guys return and a lot of influential people 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.040 sort of offer to help and just take the house 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:44.880 away from the guy and return it to your father. 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.240 But even though it takes years and years, he insists 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.320 on going through the courts and the justice system. 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.360 What did that mean to you, Well, it gave him 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.920 something to do, which I think is important for every person. Yeah, 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:00.640 so I think he loved, you know, the pursuits to speak. 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.720 But also I think his thinking was that we have 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:09.880 returned to end thuggery and you know, warlordism. If we 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:13.240 go down this route, we will become those people. So 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:15.760 I think it was important for him not to not 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.440 to actually do what that individual had done, which was 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.480 to take our house by force. 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.560 Yeah, now, talk me through what had happened in the 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:28.640 Taliban period in terms of like the disappearance of music 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:31.200 and the way women were treated, Like what was the 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:33.960 Afghanistan you were returning to. 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:36.360 Well, just to give you an idea in the seventies, 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:41.280 Afghanistan was going through this transition, so a lot of 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:45.800 tourists visiting people are exposed to foreign traditions, foreign ways, 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.440 and there was a great deal of tolerance, and we 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:50.880 had this sort of renaissance with music and culture and 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.200 so forth. But what happened in the nineteen eighties was 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.080 that the Communists were in charge, and if you recall, 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:01.440 for the Communists, culture was really important. Sports and culture, right, 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:05.200 they were good at you know, every look the Chinese 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.880 and the Soviets did very very well. So they pushed 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.640 a lot of things imposed on people, you know, dancing 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.360 on stage and you know, the sort of communist style. 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:20.760 So people who were fighting the Soviets, the Mujahideen and 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:24.319 the Taliban are an extension of the Mujadin, were very 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:29.960 resistant to anything that they saw as foreign imposed education, music, culture, 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:35.640 dancing and so forth. So in the early nineties, when 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:41.360 the first Mujahideen maujahidin one point oh took over, there 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:45.080 were some bands. I don't think music was totally silenced, 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.680 but they were a lot more restrictive than the previous government, 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.920 which was sort of a communist lefty government. When the 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:54.120 Taliban followed, which was sort of Majordin two point zero, 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:59.920 they completely banned anything that related to entertainment, television set 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:04.160 that's where executed television was banned. There was a state 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:08.760 radio broadcast which was allowed, but there were no women 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:12.480 speaking of the radio. There was only hard news and 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.240 religious chants. And then of course when we went back, 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:19.640 you know, the environment was conducive to launching the sort 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.719 of business that we launched, but people were still traumatized 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.480 by the nineteen nineties, so it took a little bit 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:29.559 for people to, you know, relax. But you know, people 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:33.440 need music, people need entertainment. We forget how important is 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:34.080 this for us. 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.920 I know, the brutality of the way that cassette tapes 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:42.320 were pulled apart and instruments burned and all all these 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:48.000 things that we take for granted disappearing, and this country 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.600 that's left in silence is stunning. You talk about how 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:54.319 when you returned it was almost like a land of zombies. 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:57.480 Yeah, because people really didn't have much to do. Everything 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:03.640 had been taken away from them. Music, entertained, restaurants, theater, cinemas, 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:07.640 even socializing in a park, going on a picnic. It 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:09.040 was impossible in those. 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:13.360 Days, so Initially you think about the amen trade. You're 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.760 thinking about maybe phone books. I think at one point, 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:17.199 how is it that you land on media? 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.719 Well, I was in Carble with my brother's side. We 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.720 were going from you know, office ministry to ministry, meeting 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:25.960 people and you know, trying to figure out what can 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:29.680 we do that would keep us involved in Afghanistan. The 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.800 Minister for Information and Culture was a friend of my 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:35.960 dad's from the seventies who then suggested to us to 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:40.520 secure a radio license. And I asked the question, I said, 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.679 is it even possible? He said, well, technically yes, because 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:47.840 post Taliban defeat it was agreed that we would have 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.360 free media and so forth. So then I embarked on 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.640 this thing to get a license, and I was going 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.600 from office to office carrying at dossier and folders and 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.240 getting kicked out of people's offices because no one could 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:00.400 believe that you can get a license. We eventually did, 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.240 and we cleared the way for everyone else that followed 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.600 because in the months and years that followed, hundreds of 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:11.200 TV and radio licenses were issued by the state. So, 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:13.240 you know, getting a license was hard, but we also 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.640 needed funding, and although we had agreed to put some 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:20.480 money towards this venture. We needed more, and luckily a 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:24.640 friend of ours called Ahmed Rashid, a Pakistani writer who 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:26.640 had just written this book on the Taliban, which was 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:29.640 now a New York Times bestseller. I had met with 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.640 the USAID administrator Andrew Nazios, and I had mentioned in 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:37.560 passing these young kids, and we were young in those days, 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.720 were looking to do this thing in Afghanistan, and it's like, 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:42.800 we'll support them. It was a two hundred and twenty 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:45.600 thousand dollars grant and that allowed us to set up 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:48.199 this business. And it was sort of a Hail Mary 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.880 pass of sorts because there was no commercial market. There 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.280 was not much advertising. We had no experience in the 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.240 radio business. You couldn't find experienced media people. So we 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.160 embarked on this business not really thinking it through a 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:04.240 lot of ways. It was an accidental business. 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:07.320 You know. You mentioned Tom Freston, who had lived in 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:11.280 Afghansanva was one of the founders of MTV. And you 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.240 think about MTV as this hothouse of culture, right, like 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:16.840 this place where people loved hanging out and just like 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.760 all these incredible ideas, but people who didn't know how 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:21.920 to make TV and people who didn't even like TV 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.800 but just wanted the spirit of mischief and youth and 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.840 excitement to permeate the TV screens, which it did. And 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.600 you feel that in the early Saturday night Live or 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.600 like College Humor or various sites. And when I read 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:40.440 the descriptions of Arman coming together and like all these 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:44.320 people sleeping on a makeshift house where you're building a 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.520 studio and you've called a friend from Australia, and it's 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.920 like this craziness of not knowing what you're doing and 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.520 this absolute belief that you can do it, like this 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.439 naivity that is just infectious. It's really wonderful. 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.199 Well, I think that in life you have to remain naive, yeah, 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.839 and not grows cynical. I think that's the key. And 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.640 you know, our friend Tom Freston, who's in the seventies, 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:12.080 continues to remain curious and open to ideas and new things. 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:14.440 So I think that's going to be the formula to 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:18.079 launching a business like this. I think the other thing 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.760 which we you know, looking back, was that we always 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:25.200 gave people the opportunity. If someone had a silly idea, 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:26.880 we felt, well, why not give it a try? 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.920 I remember hearing Jamie McGrath, who is also at the 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:34.280 early days of MTV also one of the creative sparks. 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:37.360 They're saying, Oh, we don't have a director for this, 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:39.200 why don't we let Beth do it? You know, like 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.800 this idea that like, oh, give them a shot, they're smart, 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.840 give them the opportunity. And it feels like, you know, 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:49.000 you're pulling your cousin in. You're pulling in like these 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:51.640 people who except for one person who seems to have 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.920 some radio background, Masud, like everyone else seems sort of 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.760 fresh to this. But before we talked about some of 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:02.880 that stuff, like, I think one thing that resonated when 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:04.920 I was reading your book is that so many people 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.720 looking at Afghanistan see this culture that they feel is monolithic, 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.880 and actually it's so diverse, like over different hills, the 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:16.520 different languages spoken, and you have this blank canvas with 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.400 which you can shape a country. You can put new 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.160 entertainment out there, you can do whatever you want with 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:27.080 these airwaves, and you make a conscious decision to both 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:31.480 broadcast in multiple languages and bring women on air, which 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.640 is revolutionary, right, So, like, how did you come up 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.560 with these ideas and how much conviction did you have 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:37.960 in them? 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.160 Well, I mean, you know, having women on radio is 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.000 you know, you don't have to be a rocket scientist. 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:45.760 You don't have to be a part time genius to 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:49.600 have a woman on the radio. Right, why would people 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:54.200 not want to hear a male and female DJ just chatting, 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:58.160 you know, talking about music or their lives. And it 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:00.040 was just it was so obvious. 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:02.760 But it feels like such culture shock, right. It was. 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:05.640 Yes, it was having a male and female DJ in 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:09.560 a studio. Initially it was jarring for a lot of listeners, 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:15.120 and I would say almost bordering on unacceptable. But how 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:20.800 quickly that was adopted also tells you something else, that 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.960 you can facilitate social change by just exposing people to 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:29.960 something and within it, you know, a few weeks people realize, hey, 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:31.960 this is fun. I like listening to this, you know, 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:33.720 I like the bands, I like the characters, I like 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:38.800 the chemistry. And then, of course every other radio station 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.840 was copying our format, even with music. We had just 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:44.440 arrived from Australia who were playing Kylie Minog and some 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:46.840 Aussie bands, and no one liked that type of music. 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:50.160 But they loved Bollywood music, or they like Turkish music, 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:54.000 or they liked Shakira or Ricky Martin for example, but 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:57.400 you know, a bit spicier. But it's always about trying 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:00.840 different things and letting the listener and eventually the viewer 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:02.800 decided as to what they ultimately want. 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:07.160 But that immediate nature with which this radio station took 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.480 off is incredible to me. And also there is this 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.320 internal conflict that you hear from people right like they're 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:17.359 calling you to tell you how you can't have music 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:19.320 on the radio and how it doesn't make sense. But 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:21.200 then they'll request the Venga Boys. 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:22.840 Yeah, it's like wildfire. 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:23.399 Yeah. 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:27.199 I mean we were in sort of test phase and 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:29.000 I went away for a couple of weeks. Well they 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:29.719 got the signal. 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:29.960 Right. 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:31.960 My brother rang me within a couple of days and said, 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.760 you got to get back. Everyone's listening to this radio station. 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.919 I said it's impossible. And I rang around, and everyone's 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:40.439 listening to this radio station because it was so unique. 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:44.720 There was this particular religious leader and he saw me. 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.200 He said, are you behind this radio station? I said, yes, sir, 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.800 he said, he said, I cannot believe that you air 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.359 those types of programs. He said, for example, for this, 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.199 you know, we have this radio program called Hop and 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.480 he said, Hop, you've got this girl, and just making 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.399 up some names. Mariam on a Monday was wearing this 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:08.240 tight black top, and then on Tuesday Fozzila was wearing 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:12.199 this pink dress. And then he named all the different 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:15.240 pass and he described what they were wearing in such 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.399 great detail. But of course I joked, you shouldn't be 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:19.880 listening to that intensely, sir. 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.359 We'll be back with more from Sad Mussni right after 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:40.600 this break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius, where we're 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:46.800 talking to Sad Mussene about his wonderful memoir Radio Free Afghanistan. So, Sad, 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.800 in the beginning, how much resistance were you getting from 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.560 these religious clerics and community, et cetera. 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:55.920 Quite a lot, actually quite a lot. We were lucky 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:59.600 that the government wasn't quite strong enough to Shatrastan. The 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:06.680 Internet community was present and they're funding the government. In 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:08.879 those days, we were still you know, this was the 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:13.040 honeymoon period after the fall of the Taliban, So we 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:17.640 benefited from this lack of couision within the state itself 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.000 and we had enough allies and it was sort of 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.399 fragmented government and it was great for us. Because you know, 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.639 we cemented our position as a media group. But it 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.720 was difficult. I mean, we had protests outside our offices, 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.919 we had threats, and of course we were not just 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.760 doing entertainment. We were also doing news and recoverying things 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:39.800 like corruption or extra judicial killings and so forth. So 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:42.240 it wasn't enough that we were annoying them with our 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.760 cultural programs, but also our political programs are pretty hard hitting. 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.000 But even your cultural programs end up being political, right, 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.320 like this incredible morning show that happens on the radio. 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.600 You're calling out politicians on it and standing out front 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.800 of outside of potholes until they get fixed and things 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:03.280 like that. But really lively, it's perhaps in the dna 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:05.280 of the folks who work for us in terms of 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:10.359 speaking truth to power and pushing the boundaries. Of course, 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.920 this environment today is much you know, much more challenging. 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.200 And then we were lucky that we attracted a lot 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:23.200 of talent. But also you stopped broadcasting in a way 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.800 that was overly polite or overly elegant, like you changed 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:28.840 the way that radio was presented. 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:31.959 Yeah, I mean I had to appear on the radio myself, 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.840 and there a pseudonym, so that everyone else could relax 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:37.840 because as soon as I left, they would go back 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.280 to a formal form of communicating with each other. But 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:43.360 when I was there and I was just like chatting 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:46.399 to them, they sort of relaxed a little. I think 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:48.520 in the English language it's a bit difficult. But you know, 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.440 in the book I've talked about, you know, communicating in 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:58.440 the Shakespearean English on a program that focused on younger Afghans. 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:00.200 It just just made no sense at all. 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:02.800 So, yes, we made. 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.800 It more casual, but a lot of people felt that 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:09.240 we were dumbing things down, which wasn't the case. But 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:11.720 then it took off again. People had the option of 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:15.679 listening to a more formal, serious radio program or listening 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:16.200 to us, and. 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:17.640 Yeah, they voted with their time right. 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:21.360 Ultimately, this is what happens in free societies. People get 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:21.879 to choose. 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.920 Now, three years into armand the radio station, which really 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:30.439 means hope, right, and you decide to veer into TV. 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.800 Why why do you think you can take on TV? 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:37.760 Well, as I joked with someone at the time, was 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.320 that I didn't think that we had enough problems with 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:43.600 the radio station. Listen, you know, amplify those problems. You 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:47.840 can well, it was a natural progression for us. You know, 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:52.280 we felt we had the pool of talent, we had 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:55.160 the expertise because you can remember when we first landed 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:57.960 in Afghanistan, there was nothing, you know, so we had 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:01.280 to learn to fix transmitters. We could generators. My brothers 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:03.399 were always on the hill trying to fix things on 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:05.880 the font Italy and they were the manufacturers for our 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:09.959 transmission equipment. We had to bring in trainers from Australia. 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:12.920 We had to train these DJs and producers and so forth, 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:15.280 and I had to sit behind the editing suite editing 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:18.639 programs in those days. So we thought, well, we have 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:21.600 some capacity now, why not do television, And we launched 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:26.639 Tolo TV, which means Sunrise and October of two thousand 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:31.160 and four, just before the presidential elections. That was everything 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:34.439 we had experienced with radio Times five. You know, it 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:39.080 was just far more controversial because you know, television footage 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:43.960 hits you very hard, especially if you don't like free media, 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:48.119 and so a lot of radio people transition to television 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:52.560