Speaker 1: You're listening to Part Time Genius, a production of Kaleidoscope
Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. Hey there, podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius.
Speaker 1: It's Mongish Heatiguler here. Your friend Mango Will is not
Speaker 1: here today in studio. Instead, I'm doing an interview with
Speaker 1: my good pal Sad Moseani. He's the author of a
Speaker 1: memoir called Radio Free Afghanistan. He's the founder of a
Speaker 1: radio station there called Armand FM and a TV station
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan called Tolo. He's been on the Time one
Speaker 1: hundred he has a lengthy, lengthy resume. He is a
Speaker 1: media savant, someone who's helped bring music and culture back
Speaker 1: to Afghanistan in a post Taliban period after the fall
Speaker 1: of Afghanistan. And he's someone that I watched tirelessly working
Speaker 1: the phones after the fall of Afghanistan, making trip to
Speaker 1: Downing Street and the White House to help so many
Speaker 1: people in crisis to get planes there, to secure seats
Speaker 1: on planes so that his employees and friends and anyone
Speaker 1: he knew could get out. He's just a gem of
Speaker 1: a person and I'm thrilled to have him on the show.
Speaker 2: Let's dive in.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm here with my good
Speaker 1: pal Sad Mussani, and I'm so excited to introduce him
Speaker 1: to you. Sod has a new book out, a memoir
Speaker 1: called Radio Free Afghanistan. Sad, thank you for joining me here.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. It's good to have friends in
Speaker 2: high places like yourself.
Speaker 1: I don't know about high places your praises. So let's
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about your background, because you have
Speaker 1: this incredible story of growing up in different countries. It's
Speaker 1: obviously comes from a hard place. But tell me about
Speaker 1: where you were brought up and then how you end
Speaker 1: up going to places like Tokyo and Australia.
Speaker 2: Well, I was born in London, son of an Afghan diplomat,
Speaker 2: on Saint George's Day at Saint George's Hospital, and then
Speaker 2: when I was about three, we moved back to Afghanistan.
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, my parents drove from Europe
Speaker 2: all the way to Afghanistan. Oh wow, Well, I mean,
Speaker 2: people forget how safe and stable the region was in
Speaker 2: the sixties.
Speaker 1: And what a popular trip that was right for every
Speaker 1: sort of hippie. Take a couple of cameras and trade
Speaker 1: them in for money and take the overland tour.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my parents. I think there was a convoy of
Speaker 2: three or four families, but it was not unusual for
Speaker 2: people to drive right across Europe and vice versa. And
Speaker 2: when I was about seven, we moved to Pakistan, where
Speaker 2: my father again was serving at the embassy. The diplomatic kids,
Speaker 2: you always have two three years outside, then you go
Speaker 2: back again. When I was twelve, my father was posted
Speaker 2: to the embassy in Tokyo, and while we were living
Speaker 2: in Japan, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. My father had to
Speaker 2: resign his post, and when I was sixteen, we immigrated
Speaker 2: to Australia. This is junior high school and high school,
Speaker 2: and as I became an adult, I was a NAUSI.
Speaker 1: Tell me about what Afghanistan meant to you as refugees,
Speaker 1: and like how you pictured it.
Speaker 2: Well, we left Afghanistan when I was twelve, so I
Speaker 2: have vivid memories of my childhood, whether it was my
Speaker 2: grandfather's orchard.
Speaker 1: And you write about the colors too, right, like the
Speaker 1: purples and.
Speaker 2: The you know, everything was so bright. I always thought
Speaker 2: it was my imagination, but the soil is so fertile
Speaker 2: and everything can grow there. For us, those memories sustained
Speaker 2: us for a long time. But the important thing, you
Speaker 2: know is, perhaps with your family, your father decided one day,
Speaker 2: I'm going to immigrate to the US and we're not
Speaker 2: coming back. But for us, my father never uttered those words.
Speaker 2: We immigrated to Australia out of necessity and it didn't
Speaker 2: seem permanent, so we never had closure. We always felt
Speaker 2: we would go back, because as diplomatic kids, you always
Speaker 2: do go back. So we were always looking for that
Speaker 2: opportunity to return. And you know, we were presented with
Speaker 2: a chance to go back in late two thousand and
Speaker 2: one when the Americans top of the Taliban regime.
Speaker 1: So tell me about actually getting back to Afghanistan. In
Speaker 1: the book, you talk about Terminal two in Dubai being
Speaker 1: this place that was shabby but a place that you
Speaker 1: come to love.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like you know the bar scene from
Speaker 2: the Star Wars film. You know, all types of characters
Speaker 2: and the outfits and turbans and hats, and I'll never
Speaker 2: forget the gate opening and the these guys entered wearing
Speaker 2: loafers and the cravats and blazers and they looked at us,
Speaker 2: you know, the Afghans and the Pakistanis and the Central
Speaker 2: Asians and the Iraqis, and they were horrified. They just
Speaker 2: wouldn't move for about thirty eight seconds. The wonderful thing
Speaker 2: about Dubai is that it is the gateway for all
Speaker 2: these difficult places. I mean, Dubai has become a fashionable
Speaker 2: place to go to now, but in those days it
Speaker 2: really served the neighboring countries and it was a hub.
Speaker 2: So we had to fly into Carbo by Dubai. You
Speaker 2: still have to fly into Kabo by Dubai. The first
Speaker 2: flight was actually very difficult to get on because they
Speaker 2: only had like one flight every couple of days and
Speaker 2: it was completely solidly booke time and we had to
Speaker 2: go and schmooze a whole bunch of people to be
Speaker 2: able to get those tickets, which we did. But entering
Speaker 2: the Afghan airspace was quite an emotional moment because so
Speaker 2: many people had longed to return and this flight and
Speaker 2: those days there would allow people to smoke, so there
Speaker 2: was a smoke in the air, kids screaming, and the
Speaker 2: only thing that was missing was like farm animals, you know,
Speaker 2: which you do get on some flights in Central Asia.
Speaker 2: But it was an interesting moment because when the pilot
Speaker 2: announced that we've entered the Afghan airspace. Everyone went very quiet.
Speaker 2: There was an emotional moment for.
Speaker 1: All, and.
Speaker 2: Then the plane landed and some people were kissing the
Speaker 2: ground and some others were praying, and you not partly
Speaker 2: because they survived the Ariana flight. I mean that in
Speaker 2: itself was a relief. But to be back home. You know.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you know much about Carble, but
Speaker 2: it's about two thousand meters above sea. The air is crisp,
Speaker 2: the skies are always bright and blue, and its surrounded
Speaker 2: by snowcapped hills. It's quite dramatic and when you come
Speaker 2: out of the aircraft, it hits you.
Speaker 1: It's remarkable. Now, in the book, you mentioned you still
Speaker 1: have a memory of the streets and navigating your way around.
Speaker 1: How is it that you retained all that well memory?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think we never remember from when we
Speaker 2: were three straight to when you're like in your thirties, right,
Speaker 2: So it's borrowed, right, You just passed it on, you know,
Speaker 2: year after year after year. So I think the roads
Speaker 2: that I was familiar with were just me in my head,
Speaker 2: driving in the backseat of my father's car from A
Speaker 2: to B to C to D So I kept on
Speaker 2: passing those memories on until I got back.
Speaker 1: You know, there's this extraordinary story in the book about
Speaker 1: your father trying to recover your childhood home from this mujahi.
Speaker 1: After you guys return and a lot of influential people
Speaker 1: sort of offer to help and just take the house
Speaker 1: away from the guy and return it to your father.
Speaker 1: But even though it takes years and years, he insists
Speaker 1: on going through the courts and the justice system.
Speaker 2: What did that mean to you, Well, it gave him
Speaker 2: something to do, which I think is important for every person. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I think he loved, you know, the pursuits to speak.
Speaker 2: But also I think his thinking was that we have
Speaker 2: returned to end thuggery and you know, warlordism. If we
Speaker 2: go down this route, we will become those people. So
Speaker 2: I think it was important for him not to not
Speaker 2: to actually do what that individual had done, which was
Speaker 2: to take our house by force.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now, talk me through what had happened in the
Speaker 1: Taliban period in terms of like the disappearance of music
Speaker 1: and the way women were treated, Like what was the
Speaker 1: Afghanistan you were returning to.
Speaker 2: Well, just to give you an idea in the seventies,
Speaker 2: Afghanistan was going through this transition, so a lot of
Speaker 2: tourists visiting people are exposed to foreign traditions, foreign ways,
Speaker 2: and there was a great deal of tolerance, and we
Speaker 2: had this sort of renaissance with music and culture and
Speaker 2: so forth. But what happened in the nineteen eighties was
Speaker 2: that the Communists were in charge, and if you recall,
Speaker 2: for the Communists, culture was really important. Sports and culture, right,
Speaker 2: they were good at you know, every look the Chinese
Speaker 2: and the Soviets did very very well. So they pushed
Speaker 2: a lot of things imposed on people, you know, dancing
Speaker 2: on stage and you know, the sort of communist style.
Speaker 2: So people who were fighting the Soviets, the Mujahideen and
Speaker 2: the Taliban are an extension of the Mujadin, were very
Speaker 2: resistant to anything that they saw as foreign imposed education, music, culture,
Speaker 2: dancing and so forth. So in the early nineties, when
Speaker 2: the first Mujahideen maujahidin one point oh took over, there
Speaker 2: were some bands. I don't think music was totally silenced,
Speaker 2: but they were a lot more restrictive than the previous government,
Speaker 2: which was sort of a communist lefty government. When the
Speaker 2: Taliban followed, which was sort of Majordin two point zero,
Speaker 2: they completely banned anything that related to entertainment, television set
Speaker 2: that's where executed television was banned. There was a state
Speaker 2: radio broadcast which was allowed, but there were no women
Speaker 2: speaking of the radio. There was only hard news and
Speaker 2: religious chants. And then of course when we went back,
Speaker 2: you know, the environment was conducive to launching the sort
Speaker 2: of business that we launched, but people were still traumatized
Speaker 2: by the nineteen nineties, so it took a little bit
Speaker 2: for people to, you know, relax. But you know, people
Speaker 2: need music, people need entertainment. We forget how important is
Speaker 2: this for us.
Speaker 1: I know, the brutality of the way that cassette tapes
Speaker 1: were pulled apart and instruments burned and all all these
Speaker 1: things that we take for granted disappearing, and this country
Speaker 1: that's left in silence is stunning. You talk about how
Speaker 1: when you returned it was almost like a land of zombies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because people really didn't have much to do. Everything
Speaker 2: had been taken away from them. Music, entertained, restaurants, theater, cinemas,
Speaker 2: even socializing in a park, going on a picnic. It
Speaker 2: was impossible in those.
Speaker 1: Days, so Initially you think about the amen trade. You're
Speaker 1: thinking about maybe phone books. I think at one point,
Speaker 1: how is it that you land on media?
Speaker 2: Well, I was in Carble with my brother's side. We
Speaker 2: were going from you know, office ministry to ministry, meeting
Speaker 2: people and you know, trying to figure out what can
Speaker 2: we do that would keep us involved in Afghanistan. The
Speaker 2: Minister for Information and Culture was a friend of my
Speaker 2: dad's from the seventies who then suggested to us to
Speaker 2: secure a radio license. And I asked the question, I said,
Speaker 2: is it even possible? He said, well, technically yes, because
Speaker 2: post Taliban defeat it was agreed that we would have
Speaker 2: free media and so forth. So then I embarked on
Speaker 2: this thing to get a license, and I was going
Speaker 2: from office to office carrying at dossier and folders and
Speaker 2: getting kicked out of people's offices because no one could
Speaker 2: believe that you can get a license. We eventually did,
Speaker 2: and we cleared the way for everyone else that followed
Speaker 2: because in the months and years that followed, hundreds of
Speaker 2: TV and radio licenses were issued by the state. So,
Speaker 2: you know, getting a license was hard, but we also
Speaker 2: needed funding, and although we had agreed to put some
Speaker 2: money towards this venture. We needed more, and luckily a
Speaker 2: friend of ours called Ahmed Rashid, a Pakistani writer who
Speaker 2: had just written this book on the Taliban, which was
Speaker 2: now a New York Times bestseller. I had met with
Speaker 2: the USAID administrator Andrew Nazios, and I had mentioned in
Speaker 2: passing these young kids, and we were young in those days,
Speaker 2: were looking to do this thing in Afghanistan, and it's like,
Speaker 2: we'll support them. It was a two hundred and twenty
Speaker 2: thousand dollars grant and that allowed us to set up
Speaker 2: this business. And it was sort of a Hail Mary
Speaker 2: pass of sorts because there was no commercial market. There
Speaker 2: was not much advertising. We had no experience in the
Speaker 2: radio business. You couldn't find experienced media people. So we
Speaker 2: embarked on this business not really thinking it through a
Speaker 2: lot of ways. It was an accidental business.
Speaker 1: You know. You mentioned Tom Freston, who had lived in
Speaker 1: Afghansanva was one of the founders of MTV. And you
Speaker 1: think about MTV as this hothouse of culture, right, like
Speaker 1: this place where people loved hanging out and just like
Speaker 1: all these incredible ideas, but people who didn't know how
Speaker 1: to make TV and people who didn't even like TV
Speaker 1: but just wanted the spirit of mischief and youth and
Speaker 1: excitement to permeate the TV screens, which it did. And
Speaker 1: you feel that in the early Saturday night Live or
Speaker 1: like College Humor or various sites. And when I read
Speaker 1: the descriptions of Arman coming together and like all these
Speaker 1: people sleeping on a makeshift house where you're building a
Speaker 1: studio and you've called a friend from Australia, and it's
Speaker 1: like this craziness of not knowing what you're doing and
Speaker 1: this absolute belief that you can do it, like this
Speaker 1: naivity that is just infectious. It's really wonderful.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that in life you have to remain naive, yeah,
Speaker 2: and not grows cynical. I think that's the key. And
Speaker 2: you know, our friend Tom Freston, who's in the seventies,
Speaker 2: continues to remain curious and open to ideas and new things.
Speaker 2: So I think that's going to be the formula to
Speaker 2: launching a business like this. I think the other thing
Speaker 2: which we you know, looking back, was that we always
Speaker 2: gave people the opportunity. If someone had a silly idea,
Speaker 2: we felt, well, why not give it a try?
Speaker 1: I remember hearing Jamie McGrath, who is also at the
Speaker 1: early days of MTV also one of the creative sparks.
Speaker 1: They're saying, Oh, we don't have a director for this,
Speaker 1: why don't we let Beth do it? You know, like
Speaker 1: this idea that like, oh, give them a shot, they're smart,
Speaker 1: give them the opportunity. And it feels like, you know,
Speaker 1: you're pulling your cousin in. You're pulling in like these
Speaker 1: people who except for one person who seems to have
Speaker 1: some radio background, Masud, like everyone else seems sort of
Speaker 1: fresh to this. But before we talked about some of
Speaker 1: that stuff, like, I think one thing that resonated when
Speaker 1: I was reading your book is that so many people
Speaker 1: looking at Afghanistan see this culture that they feel is monolithic,
Speaker 1: and actually it's so diverse, like over different hills, the
Speaker 1: different languages spoken, and you have this blank canvas with
Speaker 1: which you can shape a country. You can put new
Speaker 1: entertainment out there, you can do whatever you want with
Speaker 1: these airwaves, and you make a conscious decision to both
Speaker 1: broadcast in multiple languages and bring women on air, which
Speaker 1: is revolutionary, right, So, like, how did you come up
Speaker 1: with these ideas and how much conviction did you have
Speaker 1: in them?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, having women on radio is
Speaker 2: you know, you don't have to be a rocket scientist.
Speaker 2: You don't have to be a part time genius to
Speaker 2: have a woman on the radio. Right, why would people
Speaker 2: not want to hear a male and female DJ just chatting,
Speaker 2: you know, talking about music or their lives. And it
Speaker 2: was just it was so obvious.
Speaker 1: But it feels like such culture shock, right. It was.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was having a male and female DJ in
Speaker 2: a studio. Initially it was jarring for a lot of listeners,
Speaker 2: and I would say almost bordering on unacceptable. But how
Speaker 2: quickly that was adopted also tells you something else, that
Speaker 2: you can facilitate social change by just exposing people to
Speaker 2: something and within it, you know, a few weeks people realize, hey,
Speaker 2: this is fun. I like listening to this, you know,
Speaker 2: I like the bands, I like the characters, I like
Speaker 2: the chemistry. And then, of course every other radio station
Speaker 2: was copying our format, even with music. We had just
Speaker 2: arrived from Australia who were playing Kylie Minog and some
Speaker 2: Aussie bands, and no one liked that type of music.
Speaker 2: But they loved Bollywood music, or they like Turkish music,
Speaker 2: or they liked Shakira or Ricky Martin for example, but
Speaker 2: you know, a bit spicier. But it's always about trying
Speaker 2: different things and letting the listener and eventually the viewer
Speaker 2: decided as to what they ultimately want.
Speaker 1: But that immediate nature with which this radio station took
Speaker 1: off is incredible to me. And also there is this
Speaker 1: internal conflict that you hear from people right like they're
Speaker 1: calling you to tell you how you can't have music
Speaker 1: on the radio and how it doesn't make sense. But
Speaker 1: then they'll request the Venga Boys.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like wildfire.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean we were in sort of test phase and
Speaker 2: I went away for a couple of weeks. Well they
Speaker 2: got the signal.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: My brother rang me within a couple of days and said,
Speaker 2: you got to get back. Everyone's listening to this radio station.
Speaker 2: I said it's impossible. And I rang around, and everyone's
Speaker 2: listening to this radio station because it was so unique.
Speaker 2: There was this particular religious leader and he saw me.
Speaker 2: He said, are you behind this radio station? I said, yes, sir,
Speaker 2: he said, he said, I cannot believe that you air
Speaker 2: those types of programs. He said, for example, for this,
Speaker 2: you know, we have this radio program called Hop and
Speaker 2: he said, Hop, you've got this girl, and just making
Speaker 2: up some names. Mariam on a Monday was wearing this
Speaker 2: tight black top, and then on Tuesday Fozzila was wearing
Speaker 2: this pink dress. And then he named all the different
Speaker 2: pass and he described what they were wearing in such
Speaker 2: great detail. But of course I joked, you shouldn't be
Speaker 2: listening to that intensely, sir.
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Sad Mussni right after
Speaker 1: this break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius, where we're
Speaker 1: talking to Sad Mussene about his wonderful memoir Radio Free Afghanistan. So, Sad,
Speaker 1: in the beginning, how much resistance were you getting from
Speaker 1: these religious clerics and community, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Quite a lot, actually quite a lot. We were lucky
Speaker 2: that the government wasn't quite strong enough to Shatrastan. The
Speaker 2: Internet community was present and they're funding the government. In
Speaker 2: those days, we were still you know, this was the
Speaker 2: honeymoon period after the fall of the Taliban, So we
Speaker 2: benefited from this lack of couision within the state itself
Speaker 2: and we had enough allies and it was sort of
Speaker 2: fragmented government and it was great for us. Because you know,
Speaker 2: we cemented our position as a media group. But it
Speaker 2: was difficult. I mean, we had protests outside our offices,
Speaker 2: we had threats, and of course we were not just
Speaker 2: doing entertainment. We were also doing news and recoverying things
Speaker 2: like corruption or extra judicial killings and so forth. So
Speaker 2: it wasn't enough that we were annoying them with our
Speaker 2: cultural programs, but also our political programs are pretty hard hitting.
Speaker 1: But even your cultural programs end up being political, right,
Speaker 1: like this incredible morning show that happens on the radio.
Speaker 1: You're calling out politicians on it and standing out front
Speaker 1: of outside of potholes until they get fixed and things
Speaker 1: like that. But really lively, it's perhaps in the dna
Speaker 1: of the folks who work for us in terms of
Speaker 1: speaking truth to power and pushing the boundaries. Of course,
Speaker 1: this environment today is much you know, much more challenging.
Speaker 1: And then we were lucky that we attracted a lot
Speaker 1: of talent. But also you stopped broadcasting in a way
Speaker 1: that was overly polite or overly elegant, like you changed
Speaker 1: the way that radio was presented.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I had to appear on the radio myself,
Speaker 2: and there a pseudonym, so that everyone else could relax
Speaker 2: because as soon as I left, they would go back
Speaker 2: to a formal form of communicating with each other. But
Speaker 2: when I was there and I was just like chatting
Speaker 2: to them, they sort of relaxed a little. I think
Speaker 2: in the English language it's a bit difficult. But you know,
Speaker 2: in the book I've talked about, you know, communicating in
Speaker 2: the Shakespearean English on a program that focused on younger Afghans.
Speaker 2: It just just made no sense at all.
Speaker 1: So, yes, we made.
Speaker 2: It more casual, but a lot of people felt that
Speaker 2: we were dumbing things down, which wasn't the case. But
Speaker 2: then it took off again. People had the option of
Speaker 2: listening to a more formal, serious radio program or listening
Speaker 2: to us, and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they voted with their time right.
Speaker 2: Ultimately, this is what happens in free societies. People get
Speaker 2: to choose.
Speaker 1: Now, three years into armand the radio station, which really
Speaker 1: means hope, right, and you decide to veer into TV.
Speaker 1: Why why do you think you can take on TV?
Speaker 2: Well, as I joked with someone at the time, was
Speaker 2: that I didn't think that we had enough problems with
Speaker 2: the radio station. Listen, you know, amplify those problems. You
Speaker 2: can well, it was a natural progression for us. You know,
Speaker 2: we felt we had the pool of talent, we had
Speaker 2: the expertise because you can remember when we first landed
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan, there was nothing, you know, so we had
Speaker 2: to learn to fix transmitters. We could generators. My brothers
Speaker 2: were always on the hill trying to fix things on
Speaker 2: the font Italy and they were the manufacturers for our
Speaker 2: transmission equipment. We had to bring in trainers from Australia.
Speaker 2: We had to train these DJs and producers and so forth,
Speaker 2: and I had to sit behind the editing suite editing
Speaker 2: programs in those days. So we thought, well, we have
Speaker 2: some capacity now, why not do television, And we launched
Speaker 2: Tolo TV, which means Sunrise and October of two thousand
Speaker 2: and four, just before the presidential elections. That was everything
Speaker 2: we had experienced with radio Times five. You know, it
Speaker 2: was just far more controversial because you know, television footage
Speaker 2: hits you very hard, especially if you don't like free media,
Speaker 2: and so a lot of radio people transition to television
Speaker 2: and there are synergies between the two, of course, so
Speaker 2: it makes a lot of sense. And then we continue
Speaker 2: to expand that side of the business as well. We
Speaker 2: set up a second and then a third TV network,
Speaker 2: We set up another radio network, and then we have
Speaker 2: dozens and dozens of digital platforms and brands as well.
Speaker 2: So it's a fairly diverse media group now and employees
Speaker 2: like four or five hundred people.
Speaker 1: That's pretty incredible. In the early days of radio, the
Speaker 1: way you write about it, it's almost like there's an
Speaker 1: open mic and studio and people can come through and
Speaker 1: just talk and whoever is excited to be on the
Speaker 1: radio does. And I'm curious did that translate into the
Speaker 1: TV station as well? Like how experimental were you with
Speaker 1: the early TV stuff?
Speaker 2: I mean I used to like wake up in the
Speaker 2: morning and say, hey, what are we going to have
Speaker 2: on today? And almost like what are you going to
Speaker 2: face for breakfast? Exactly because what we did was normally
Speaker 2: you plan to establish a television station, you know, creating programs,
Speaker 2: acquiring programs, the pipeline in terms of content, getting everything
Speaker 2: lined up, it's a two year process. And so I said, oh,
Speaker 2: what about six months? I said, how about four months?
Speaker 2: Something along those lines, And you know, I caught my
Speaker 2: brother's ide, who always says, you a bite more than
Speaker 2: you can chew than chew like crazy. It was a
Speaker 2: bit like that for us in the early earlier. So
Speaker 2: we then were in a position to launch this TV stage,
Speaker 2: and except we didn't have much content, so we had
Speaker 2: to come up with all these, like let's call it
Speaker 2: interesting ideas of creating a lot of content with a
Speaker 2: limited budget. For example, we had this program called Taxi,
Speaker 2: and the idea was the host would go and sit
Speaker 2: next to the taxi driver and then there'd be a
Speaker 2: camera guy filming the whole thing, and then he talked
Speaker 2: about his life and passengers and experience, and it was
Speaker 2: going to be like twenty or twenty one minutes and
Speaker 2: including out a little bit thirty minutes. And then we
Speaker 2: had all sorts of issues because we told the camera
Speaker 2: guy to fix the camera inside the thing, but he
Speaker 2: would refuse to do that. So he would lie on
Speaker 2: the bonnet in front of the cab, which is fine
Speaker 2: if the CAB's doing like three miles an hour, but
Speaker 2: then this cab driver sometimes get excited and would go
Speaker 2: like forty mile and and on two three occasions this
Speaker 2: guy fell off the vehicle, hurting himself slightly, and so
Speaker 2: we had all sorts of issues like that. With these
Speaker 2: sort of early production ideas, but eventually we got it right.
Speaker 2: Eventually we bought the content we wanted to buy and
Speaker 2: we dubbed them and we produced local shows. But we
Speaker 2: realized how difficult this is to produce television content, and we
Speaker 2: learned on the job basically.
Speaker 1: And you were pulling in like soap operas from Turkey
Speaker 1: and initially India India as well, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: The first soap opera we had, which was so you know,
Speaker 2: was perhaps the most popular show we've ever had, is
Speaker 2: Kimki sas Bahi, which was a star television program. It's
Speaker 2: about this this ridiculous relationship between her mother in law
Speaker 2: and her daughter in law, you know, scheming mother in
Speaker 2: law trying to ruin the life of this young woman.
Speaker 2: And of course a lot of Afghans could identify with that,
Speaker 2: because who doesn't have an evil mind?
Speaker 1: Well, I would like to say on radio, I don't,
Speaker 1: but but I know it's funny because in that same
Speaker 1: period in India when all the cable stuff came in,
Speaker 1: they brought Santa Barbara and before that, I think like
Speaker 1: the Maha Barad and stuff like that. People would tune
Speaker 1: in every Sunday or whatever. But when Santa Barbara came, like,
Speaker 1: people wouldn't leave their house the next day because they
Speaker 1: just didn't understand that, like soap operas don't really progress.
Speaker 1: They thought there was something big happening the next day
Speaker 1: and whatever. But it took no time for Indians to
Speaker 1: copy that format and then dramatize it in the most
Speaker 1: ridiculous and you know, phenomenal ways.
Speaker 2: So we were lucky that because we tried everything. For example,
Speaker 2: we tried Japanese because you know, we lived in Tokyo.
Speaker 2: We took Japanese drama series. And we were also lucky
Speaker 2: because a lot of embassies would come to us and say,
Speaker 2: would you like a Samurai drama series? Say, oh yeah,
Speaker 2: we'll take that, thank you. And the Koreans gave us
Speaker 2: a lot of content to take and dub. And that's
Speaker 2: when we discovered how attractive and how compelling Korean dramas were.
Speaker 2: Koreans are extraordinary storytellers. So we had this opportunity of
Speaker 2: testing different formats and different genres and different shows from
Speaker 2: different continents, so to speak.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and really showcasing the world to people who lived
Speaker 1: a sort of provincial life before that.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so a Hafcans were exposed music wise to all
Speaker 2: types of music and television wise also to all types
Speaker 2: of formats and shows.
Speaker 1: So one of the stories that I don't think is
Speaker 1: in your book but I love is that you brought
Speaker 1: the writer of Pretty Woman over to help brainstorm with people.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about that little Yeah, someone.
Speaker 2: Has suggested them, so we contacted them and lo and
Speaker 2: beheldy shows up. So we had these workshops. So it
Speaker 2: was a reality TV show that we asked viewers to
Speaker 2: submit their application if they wanted to be a part
Speaker 2: of this workshop, and a whole bunch of people applied,
Speaker 2: handful were chosen, and then they worked with this guy,
Speaker 2: j Floorton to learn how to write a show and
Speaker 2: how to produce a show, and the group we end
Speaker 2: up identifying some extraordinary talent. But he was an interesting
Speaker 2: character and he worked very closely with would be filmmakers
Speaker 2: and of course in the evenings we'd take him out
Speaker 2: for dinner and he tell us stories about Hollywood and
Speaker 2: Pretty Woman and all the juicy stuff that I can't
Speaker 2: even repeat here, But it was based on a true
Speaker 2: story Pretty Woman. Really.
Speaker 1: Yes, we'll be back with sad Morsini right after this break,
Speaker 1: welcome back to Part Time Genius, where I'm in studio
Speaker 1: with Sad Morsni. I think one of the things that
Speaker 1: really impressed on me when you had said it was
Speaker 1: that America was obviously in Afghanistan for twenty years, right,
Speaker 1: and there are these generations that have kind of now
Speaker 1: been forgotten but really got to experience a totally different world.
Speaker 1: What sort of youth movements did you see, What sort
Speaker 1: of music, style of arts or things emerged from this period.
Speaker 2: We had this show called Afghanista, which if you watched
Speaker 2: the early seasons, I mean, the lack of talent in
Speaker 2: that country was very obvious and it was all painful
Speaker 2: to listen to some of these people attempt to sing.
Speaker 2: But within a couple of seasons, I mean some real
Speaker 2: talent emerged, not just in terms of ability to sing,
Speaker 2: but to compose. People could play different instruments all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, and we had an orchestra that was state
Speaker 2: funded that you know, they could play Western instruments. So
Speaker 2: the transition was very So what probably other countries experience
Speaker 2: over decades, it was condensed into like two or three years.
Speaker 2: So then there was this vibrant music scene and so
Speaker 2: many kids interested in performing and singing and collaborating and
Speaker 2: so forth. And you know, for a while, you think
Speaker 2: you're managing things because you think I've got the biggest broadcaster,
Speaker 2: or I've got the biggest radio station, We've got a
Speaker 2: music label, and you're sort of in the driver's seat.
Speaker 2: But then eventually it becomes too big, and that moment
Speaker 2: is actually quite gratifying because now it's very organic. It's
Speaker 2: all over the place, and there's a lot of talent
Speaker 2: out there. And Afghanistan is a young country even now
Speaker 2: today median ages eighteen and a half or something, But
Speaker 2: in those early years to see that transition happen was
Speaker 2: very exciting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that show, which is like an American idol
Speaker 1: of Afghanistan, Like I think your sister Wachma and your
Speaker 1: brother proposed it, right, the idea of trying it out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we thought we should have a music talent show,
Speaker 2: and so they sort of figured out if we can
Speaker 2: take an existing format or just create a format for ourselves,
Speaker 2: we felt at the time, and we were right actually,
Speaker 2: because we later on we tried to.
Speaker 1: You tried to do The Voice, The Voice.
Speaker 2: Which lasted a couple of season wasn't as successful, so
Speaker 2: we created this format for Afghanistan, which immediately was a hit.
Speaker 1: The scenes are like people are hooking up TVs and
Speaker 1: villagers to like generators and car engines and stuff just
Speaker 1: to watch and like the crowds, and the show ends
Speaker 1: up teaching people to vote. It's remarkable how quickly it
Speaker 1: sort of blossoms.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we had like millions of people voting via text,
Speaker 2: which was not cheap. I mean, you know, people had
Speaker 2: to spend money, and this is a impoverished country, and
Speaker 2: people were launching campaigns for their supporters to vote for them.
Speaker 2: So it was like an elections campaign with posters and
Speaker 2: people going around villages saying you got to vote for
Speaker 2: this character. And it was exciting and daunting. And then
Speaker 2: of course we had to deal with the nutcases who
Speaker 2: were attempting to blow us up because we're promoting a
Speaker 2: music show.
Speaker 1: And you actually did teach people vote because people had
Speaker 1: never had a voice before, and so suddenly they're using
Speaker 1: their phones and they're they're getting to speak up on
Speaker 1: issues that they never have and you end up with
Speaker 1: like a woman who ends up winning. You end up
Speaker 1: with old people voting for rappers on stage I mean,
Speaker 1: the amount of progress is incredible. But as you talk
Speaker 1: about the resistance to this show, can you describe a
Speaker 1: little bit about the regions of Afghanistan and what like
Speaker 1: Herat is like, or Kandahar these other like places, and
Speaker 1: what the makeup of the country is, because I don't
Speaker 1: think a lot of people understand the sort of landscape
Speaker 1: in a way.
Speaker 2: Well, the south and the East, they're predominantly passion so
Speaker 2: perhaps more traditional and conservative. Heyrot, although it's a person
Speaker 2: speaking city, but they're still conservative. Mazara here from the north,
Speaker 2: mostly persons speaking, but most of our cities are fairly mixed.
Speaker 2: You have people of different athnicities. People have beenter married
Speaker 2: for hundreds of years, so we don't have exclusive areas,
Speaker 2: and every area you'll have some minorities members of the
Speaker 2: minorities that reside in those cities, and Central Afghanistan is
Speaker 2: perhaps a little more tolerant of these things. We had
Speaker 2: a lot of issues in Herat, in particular. There's a
Speaker 2: chapter in the book there's this sort of quite a
Speaker 2: charismatic cleric that mobilized a lot of people against the show,
Speaker 2: but he was death set against these auditions being filmed
Speaker 2: in Hero art and then the book. You know, the
Speaker 2: solution eventually was to do the airport. The condestin showed
Speaker 2: up and they did the auditions, then they flew out.
Speaker 2: So they always found ways of dealing with these challenges.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean it's funny because you know, you
Speaker 2: look at it now and I asked myself, this question,
Speaker 2: is with this obsession about controlling people's personal lives, whether
Speaker 2: manner or woman should wear, what a manner of woman
Speaker 2: should listen to, by the way you see it here
Speaker 2: in the Western.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not just restrained that idea.
Speaker 2: It's kind of women's body or whatever you hear about
Speaker 2: these debates in the US. I think a sign of
Speaker 2: civilization is tolerance, and that's one of the things that
Speaker 2: we focused on. Always know how to be intellectually humble,
Speaker 2: how to listen to the other side, to tolerate other
Speaker 2: people's points of views. I think that's good to quick
Speaker 2: people if you can with these skill sets or these tools.
Speaker 1: I think one of the saddest things is there's an
Speaker 1: awful scene of US suicide bombing. Can you talk about
Speaker 1: that and how that affected your staff.
Speaker 2: We ran with the story in mid twenty fifteen, which
Speaker 2: we had to correct later in the evening. But at
Speaker 2: the time, the Taliban felt that media in general was
Speaker 2: unfair to them, unfairly targeting the Taliban. We were not
Speaker 2: maintaining the balance, which I don't agree with. But that
Speaker 2: story became the catalyst or their excuse to targeted us,
Speaker 2: and they ssued sort of a fatwell of sorts against us.
Speaker 2: And of course, you know, Afghanistan is a tough neighborhood.
Speaker 2: The government was adamant that we could protect us. But
Speaker 2: one day, when the bus was taking employees back home
Speaker 2: left the office and what was on its way to
Speaker 2: the western part of the city, a taxi filled with
Speaker 2: the explosives rammed into its side and as a result
Speaker 2: killed seven of our employees and injured fifteen, some permanently. Actually,
Speaker 2: and I was in Bombay at the time on business,
Speaker 2: and actually it was on the news. We were covering
Speaker 2: the story, but not realizing it was our own bus.
Speaker 2: So one of the producers called me up and said, listen,
Speaker 2: I'm calling some of these people. I can't reach them.
Speaker 2: You know, God forbid. Do you think it could be
Speaker 2: our bus? I said, well, I don't know. Let's look
Speaker 2: in to this. Situations like that it's not that clear cut,
Speaker 2: you know, you don't have ambulances showing up. People just
Speaker 2: come in and they do what they can to help.
Speaker 2: So some are taken to hospital A, some are taken
Speaker 2: to hospital B, and some hospitals are full of people
Speaker 2: so they can't take any more patients. So eventually all
Speaker 2: our people, at least thirty individuals were taken to various hospitals,
Speaker 2: and you know, the task of going there, identifying them
Speaker 2: and so forth was an online exercise. I took the
Speaker 2: first flight back to Dubai and then from Dubai back
Speaker 2: to Carbul and by the time on land in the morning,
Speaker 2: we had an idea in terms of the fatalities. But
Speaker 2: it was a very very difficult few days. It was
Speaker 2: to meet their families to comfort them. It's difficult to
Speaker 2: talk to a mother or a father or a sibling,
Speaker 2: their loved one. And for them, it wasn't just losing
Speaker 2: a child. For the lot of them, These children their
Speaker 2: soul providers, you know, dealing with what we should do next.
Speaker 2: But most of them were very determined, Adam, and that
Speaker 2: they should continue and you know, we must persist. But
Speaker 2: everyone was very emotional. It was a very, very very
Speaker 2: difficult period for everyone. For me, perhaps the most difficult
Speaker 2: seventy two hours of my life. But it doesn't become
Speaker 2: easier because when you go and revisit those days, you
Speaker 2: sometimes think was it all worth it? I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: I can't say what certainly if it was.
Speaker 1: It's so heartbreaking knowing the stories of those people who
Speaker 1: were young and came to office and loved their work
Speaker 1: so much, you know, And then I know you've talked
Speaker 1: about like how you weren't sure whether you should close
Speaker 1: up shop, and the fact that this army of people
Speaker 1: who loved me media are they're ready to keep broadcasting
Speaker 1: and they want to be led forward, and they want
Speaker 1: to keep fighting for their country, and there's something so
Speaker 1: sad and beautiful about it. But I know that the
Speaker 1: story gets harder and harder where the Taliban takes over
Speaker 1: a couple that the government flees, and having watched you
Speaker 1: deal with trying to secure safety for people, I was
Speaker 1: there the day before you rushed off to the White
Speaker 1: House to talk to people. It's just what you've done
Speaker 1: is remarkable. But talk about how you kept pushing through.
Speaker 1: I mean, like it feels like in the book, the
Speaker 1: first chapter is about how you're trying to figure out
Speaker 1: how to produce TV with increasing threats from the Taliban.
Speaker 2: Well, we were there to report on the country's first elections.
Speaker 2: We were there to report on the government's progress. We
Speaker 2: were there to report on the government's corruption. We were
Speaker 2: there to report on the insurgency and how quickly the
Speaker 2: government was becoming unpopular. We were there to report on
Speaker 2: civilian killings and deaths and drone attacks and so forth.
Speaker 2: We were there to report on the fall of the government,
Speaker 2: the present fleeing. We were there to report in the
Speaker 2: Taliban's ascendancy in their takeover the city. So we seem
Speaker 2: to be there every step of the way, and you
Speaker 2: have to somehow detach yourself from you know, you have
Speaker 2: to do your job. I'm talking about the news organization
Speaker 2: that they are doing the best they can reporting on facts,
Speaker 2: not just in terms of informing Afghans of what's going on,
Speaker 2: but also informing people outside. It sounds like two thousand
Speaker 2: and two, two thousand and three, where you have hundreds
Speaker 2: of reporters all over Kabo or Rasni or Jalalaba or Kandahar.
Speaker 2: Today on a handful of people dare visit the country
Speaker 2: because there's no interest outside Afghanistan. Afghanistan has become the
Speaker 2: forgotten war as it was in the nineties. So we
Speaker 2: do what we can, and I mentioned some of this morning.
Speaker 2: You know, it's wonderful to have the likes of Meneral
Speaker 2: Streeps say certain things about Afghan women or others, but
Speaker 2: platitudes are not enough. You know, we need practical steps taken.
Speaker 2: You know, half the country is on the verge of starvation.
Speaker 2: We have food and security that impacts twenty two million people.
Speaker 2: If you look at modern nutrition numbers, it impacts three
Speaker 2: and a half million kids. A third of households are
Speaker 2: not fully insulated, they're exposed to the elements. Clean water
Speaker 2: is not available to like seventy percent of the population,
Speaker 2: and so on and so on. So we got to
Speaker 2: always balance. You know, we have the political dilemmas and challenges,
Speaker 2: we have the humanitarian situation, and forty million people still
Speaker 2: live in that country. They still have hopes and aspirations.
Speaker 1: And you're still feeding those hopes and aspirations both through
Speaker 1: tutoring programs, right, but also you're talking about bringing back
Speaker 1: Afghan star.
Speaker 2: Well, I think if we do that, it will be
Speaker 2: an online version of course, one of our companies produces
Speaker 2: a lot of music that's available online, which still a
Speaker 2: lot of people consume, so people have that option. I
Speaker 2: think in the twenty first century you cannot confine people
Speaker 2: to a cave. I think that's important in terms of education.
Speaker 2: Our young girls and boys don't have access to good education.
Speaker 2: I mean, girls beyond grade six have zero education. But
Speaker 2: even the boys, when they can go to the school,
Speaker 2: the quality of the schooling is not particularly good because
Speaker 2: a lot of teachers are fled, we don't have access
Speaker 2: to textbooks. So we're using our television outlets where still
Speaker 2: millions of people watch these programs every single day, to
Speaker 2: create education programs which are interesting, engaging use of muppets
Speaker 2: and graphics and animation and so forth. And the results
Speaker 2: are extraordinary. We've evaluated kids' performances. We're talking about greades
Speaker 2: doubling if they watch the program, if they have access
Speaker 2: to WhatsApp to during it triples. So you know, from
Speaker 2: not learning mathematics ad all to learning it well is
Speaker 2: the byproduct of these TV programs. So I think it's
Speaker 2: probably one of the most consequential things we've done.
Speaker 1: It's really stunning and the whole book is just a
Speaker 1: remarkable story Radio Free Afghanistan. You should go pick it up.
Speaker 1: But I think one of the most affecting lines to
Speaker 1: me was in the dedication that you tell your children
Speaker 1: thank you for sharing you with Afghanistan, and I think
Speaker 1: that what you've done for the country is remarkable. Thank you,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here with me. That's
Speaker 1: it for today's Part Time Genius. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for listening. If you're interested in the book, it's called
Speaker 1: Radio Free Afghanistan by my good friend Sad Mussini. I
Speaker 1: hope you check it out. But that's going to do
Speaker 1: it for today's episode. We'll be back with a brand
Speaker 1: new show next week with Will as well well, but
Speaker 1: from Mary, Gabe, Dylan and myself. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for listening. Part Time Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope
Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted by Will Pearson and
Speaker 1: Me Mongais Heartikler and research by our good pal Mary
Speaker 1: Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and produced by the
Speaker 1: wonderful Dylan Fagan with support from Tyler Klang. The show
Speaker 1: is executive produced for iHeart by Katrina Norbel and Ali Perry.
Speaker 1: With social media support from Sasha Gay, trustee Dara Potts
Speaker 1: and Viney Shorey. For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio,
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
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