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Speaker 1: You're listening to Part Time Genius, a production of Kaleidoscope

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Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. Hey there, podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius.

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Speaker 1: It's Mongish Heatiguler here. Your friend Mango Will is not

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Speaker 1: here today in studio. Instead, I'm doing an interview with

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Speaker 1: my good pal Sad Moseani. He's the author of a

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Speaker 1: memoir called Radio Free Afghanistan. He's the founder of a

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Speaker 1: radio station there called Armand FM and a TV station

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Speaker 1: in Afghanistan called Tolo. He's been on the Time one

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Speaker 1: hundred he has a lengthy, lengthy resume. He is a

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Speaker 1: media savant, someone who's helped bring music and culture back

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Speaker 1: to Afghanistan in a post Taliban period after the fall

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Speaker 1: of Afghanistan. And he's someone that I watched tirelessly working

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Speaker 1: the phones after the fall of Afghanistan, making trip to

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Speaker 1: Downing Street and the White House to help so many

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Speaker 1: people in crisis to get planes there, to secure seats

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Speaker 1: on planes so that his employees and friends and anyone

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Speaker 1: he knew could get out. He's just a gem of

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Speaker 1: a person and I'm thrilled to have him on the show.

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Speaker 2: Let's dive in.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm here with my good

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Speaker 1: pal Sad Mussani, and I'm so excited to introduce him

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Speaker 1: to you. Sod has a new book out, a memoir

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Speaker 1: called Radio Free Afghanistan. Sad, thank you for joining me here.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. It's good to have friends in

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Speaker 2: high places like yourself.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about high places your praises. So let's

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about your background, because you have

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Speaker 1: this incredible story of growing up in different countries. It's

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Speaker 1: obviously comes from a hard place. But tell me about

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Speaker 1: where you were brought up and then how you end

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Speaker 1: up going to places like Tokyo and Australia.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was born in London, son of an Afghan diplomat,

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Speaker 2: on Saint George's Day at Saint George's Hospital, and then

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Speaker 2: when I was about three, we moved back to Afghanistan.

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Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, my parents drove from Europe

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Speaker 2: all the way to Afghanistan. Oh wow, Well, I mean,

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Speaker 2: people forget how safe and stable the region was in

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Speaker 2: the sixties.

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Speaker 1: And what a popular trip that was right for every

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Speaker 1: sort of hippie. Take a couple of cameras and trade

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Speaker 1: them in for money and take the overland tour.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my parents. I think there was a convoy of

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Speaker 2: three or four families, but it was not unusual for

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Speaker 2: people to drive right across Europe and vice versa. And

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Speaker 2: when I was about seven, we moved to Pakistan, where

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Speaker 2: my father again was serving at the embassy. The diplomatic kids,

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Speaker 2: you always have two three years outside, then you go

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Speaker 2: back again. When I was twelve, my father was posted

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Speaker 2: to the embassy in Tokyo, and while we were living

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Speaker 2: in Japan, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. My father had to

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Speaker 2: resign his post, and when I was sixteen, we immigrated

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Speaker 2: to Australia. This is junior high school and high school,

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Speaker 2: and as I became an adult, I was a NAUSI.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about what Afghanistan meant to you as refugees,

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Speaker 1: and like how you pictured it.

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Speaker 2: Well, we left Afghanistan when I was twelve, so I

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Speaker 2: have vivid memories of my childhood, whether it was my

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Speaker 2: grandfather's orchard.

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Speaker 1: And you write about the colors too, right, like the

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Speaker 1: purples and.

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Speaker 2: The you know, everything was so bright. I always thought

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Speaker 2: it was my imagination, but the soil is so fertile

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Speaker 2: and everything can grow there. For us, those memories sustained

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Speaker 2: us for a long time. But the important thing, you

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Speaker 2: know is, perhaps with your family, your father decided one day,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to immigrate to the US and we're not

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Speaker 2: coming back. But for us, my father never uttered those words.

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Speaker 2: We immigrated to Australia out of necessity and it didn't

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Speaker 2: seem permanent, so we never had closure. We always felt

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Speaker 2: we would go back, because as diplomatic kids, you always

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Speaker 2: do go back. So we were always looking for that

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Speaker 2: opportunity to return. And you know, we were presented with

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Speaker 2: a chance to go back in late two thousand and

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Speaker 2: one when the Americans top of the Taliban regime.

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Speaker 1: So tell me about actually getting back to Afghanistan. In

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Speaker 1: the book, you talk about Terminal two in Dubai being

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Speaker 1: this place that was shabby but a place that you

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Speaker 1: come to love.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like you know the bar scene from

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Speaker 2: the Star Wars film. You know, all types of characters

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Speaker 2: and the outfits and turbans and hats, and I'll never

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Speaker 2: forget the gate opening and the these guys entered wearing

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Speaker 2: loafers and the cravats and blazers and they looked at us,

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Speaker 2: you know, the Afghans and the Pakistanis and the Central

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Speaker 2: Asians and the Iraqis, and they were horrified. They just

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Speaker 2: wouldn't move for about thirty eight seconds. The wonderful thing

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Speaker 2: about Dubai is that it is the gateway for all

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Speaker 2: these difficult places. I mean, Dubai has become a fashionable

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Speaker 2: place to go to now, but in those days it

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Speaker 2: really served the neighboring countries and it was a hub.

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Speaker 2: So we had to fly into Carbo by Dubai. You

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Speaker 2: still have to fly into Kabo by Dubai. The first

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Speaker 2: flight was actually very difficult to get on because they

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Speaker 2: only had like one flight every couple of days and

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Speaker 2: it was completely solidly booke time and we had to

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Speaker 2: go and schmooze a whole bunch of people to be

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Speaker 2: able to get those tickets, which we did. But entering

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Speaker 2: the Afghan airspace was quite an emotional moment because so

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Speaker 2: many people had longed to return and this flight and

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Speaker 2: those days there would allow people to smoke, so there

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Speaker 2: was a smoke in the air, kids screaming, and the

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Speaker 2: only thing that was missing was like farm animals, you know,

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Speaker 2: which you do get on some flights in Central Asia.

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Speaker 2: But it was an interesting moment because when the pilot

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Speaker 2: announced that we've entered the Afghan airspace. Everyone went very quiet.

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Speaker 2: There was an emotional moment for.

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Speaker 1: All, and.

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Speaker 2: Then the plane landed and some people were kissing the

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Speaker 2: ground and some others were praying, and you not partly

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Speaker 2: because they survived the Ariana flight. I mean that in

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Speaker 2: itself was a relief. But to be back home. You know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you know much about Carble, but

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Speaker 2: it's about two thousand meters above sea. The air is crisp,

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Speaker 2: the skies are always bright and blue, and its surrounded

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Speaker 2: by snowcapped hills. It's quite dramatic and when you come

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Speaker 2: out of the aircraft, it hits you.

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Speaker 1: It's remarkable. Now, in the book, you mentioned you still

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Speaker 1: have a memory of the streets and navigating your way around.

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Speaker 1: How is it that you retained all that well memory?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think we never remember from when we

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Speaker 2: were three straight to when you're like in your thirties, right,

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Speaker 2: So it's borrowed, right, You just passed it on, you know,

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Speaker 2: year after year after year. So I think the roads

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Speaker 2: that I was familiar with were just me in my head,

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Speaker 2: driving in the backseat of my father's car from A

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Speaker 2: to B to C to D So I kept on

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Speaker 2: passing those memories on until I got back.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's this extraordinary story in the book about

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Speaker 1: your father trying to recover your childhood home from this mujahi.

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Speaker 1: After you guys return and a lot of influential people

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Speaker 1: sort of offer to help and just take the house

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Speaker 1: away from the guy and return it to your father.

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Speaker 1: But even though it takes years and years, he insists

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Speaker 1: on going through the courts and the justice system.

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Speaker 2: What did that mean to you, Well, it gave him

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Speaker 2: something to do, which I think is important for every person. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I think he loved, you know, the pursuits to speak.

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Speaker 2: But also I think his thinking was that we have

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Speaker 2: returned to end thuggery and you know, warlordism. If we

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Speaker 2: go down this route, we will become those people. So

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Speaker 2: I think it was important for him not to not

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Speaker 2: to actually do what that individual had done, which was

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Speaker 2: to take our house by force.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, now, talk me through what had happened in the

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Speaker 1: Taliban period in terms of like the disappearance of music

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Speaker 1: and the way women were treated, Like what was the

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Speaker 1: Afghanistan you were returning to.

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Speaker 2: Well, just to give you an idea in the seventies,

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Speaker 2: Afghanistan was going through this transition, so a lot of

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Speaker 2: tourists visiting people are exposed to foreign traditions, foreign ways,

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Speaker 2: and there was a great deal of tolerance, and we

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Speaker 2: had this sort of renaissance with music and culture and

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Speaker 2: so forth. But what happened in the nineteen eighties was

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Speaker 2: that the Communists were in charge, and if you recall,

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Speaker 2: for the Communists, culture was really important. Sports and culture, right,

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Speaker 2: they were good at you know, every look the Chinese

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Speaker 2: and the Soviets did very very well. So they pushed

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Speaker 2: a lot of things imposed on people, you know, dancing

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Speaker 2: on stage and you know, the sort of communist style.

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Speaker 2: So people who were fighting the Soviets, the Mujahideen and

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Speaker 2: the Taliban are an extension of the Mujadin, were very

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Speaker 2: resistant to anything that they saw as foreign imposed education, music, culture,

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Speaker 2: dancing and so forth. So in the early nineties, when

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Speaker 2: the first Mujahideen maujahidin one point oh took over, there

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Speaker 2: were some bands. I don't think music was totally silenced,

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Speaker 2: but they were a lot more restrictive than the previous government,

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Speaker 2: which was sort of a communist lefty government. When the

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Speaker 2: Taliban followed, which was sort of Majordin two point zero,

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Speaker 2: they completely banned anything that related to entertainment, television set

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Speaker 2: that's where executed television was banned. There was a state

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Speaker 2: radio broadcast which was allowed, but there were no women

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Speaker 2: speaking of the radio. There was only hard news and

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Speaker 2: religious chants. And then of course when we went back,

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Speaker 2: you know, the environment was conducive to launching the sort

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Speaker 2: of business that we launched, but people were still traumatized

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Speaker 2: by the nineteen nineties, so it took a little bit

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Speaker 2: for people to, you know, relax. But you know, people

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Speaker 2: need music, people need entertainment. We forget how important is

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Speaker 2: this for us.

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Speaker 1: I know, the brutality of the way that cassette tapes

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Speaker 1: were pulled apart and instruments burned and all all these

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Speaker 1: things that we take for granted disappearing, and this country

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Speaker 1: that's left in silence is stunning. You talk about how

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Speaker 1: when you returned it was almost like a land of zombies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because people really didn't have much to do. Everything

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Speaker 2: had been taken away from them. Music, entertained, restaurants, theater, cinemas,

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Speaker 2: even socializing in a park, going on a picnic. It

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Speaker 2: was impossible in those.

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Speaker 1: Days, so Initially you think about the amen trade. You're

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Speaker 1: thinking about maybe phone books. I think at one point,

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Speaker 1: how is it that you land on media?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was in Carble with my brother's side. We

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Speaker 2: were going from you know, office ministry to ministry, meeting

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Speaker 2: people and you know, trying to figure out what can

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Speaker 2: we do that would keep us involved in Afghanistan. The

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Speaker 2: Minister for Information and Culture was a friend of my

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Speaker 2: dad's from the seventies who then suggested to us to

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Speaker 2: secure a radio license. And I asked the question, I said,

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Speaker 2: is it even possible? He said, well, technically yes, because

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Speaker 2: post Taliban defeat it was agreed that we would have

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Speaker 2: free media and so forth. So then I embarked on

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Speaker 2: this thing to get a license, and I was going

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Speaker 2: from office to office carrying at dossier and folders and

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Speaker 2: getting kicked out of people's offices because no one could

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Speaker 2: believe that you can get a license. We eventually did,

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Speaker 2: and we cleared the way for everyone else that followed

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Speaker 2: because in the months and years that followed, hundreds of

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Speaker 2: TV and radio licenses were issued by the state. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, getting a license was hard, but we also

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Speaker 2: needed funding, and although we had agreed to put some

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Speaker 2: money towards this venture. We needed more, and luckily a

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Speaker 2: friend of ours called Ahmed Rashid, a Pakistani writer who

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Speaker 2: had just written this book on the Taliban, which was

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Speaker 2: now a New York Times bestseller. I had met with

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Speaker 2: the USAID administrator Andrew Nazios, and I had mentioned in

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Speaker 2: passing these young kids, and we were young in those days,

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Speaker 2: were looking to do this thing in Afghanistan, and it's like,

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Speaker 2: we'll support them. It was a two hundred and twenty

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars grant and that allowed us to set up

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Speaker 2: this business. And it was sort of a Hail Mary

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Speaker 2: pass of sorts because there was no commercial market. There

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Speaker 2: was not much advertising. We had no experience in the

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Speaker 2: radio business. You couldn't find experienced media people. So we

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Speaker 2: embarked on this business not really thinking it through a

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Speaker 2: lot of ways. It was an accidental business.

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Speaker 1: You know. You mentioned Tom Freston, who had lived in

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Speaker 1: Afghansanva was one of the founders of MTV. And you

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Speaker 1: think about MTV as this hothouse of culture, right, like

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Speaker 1: this place where people loved hanging out and just like

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Speaker 1: all these incredible ideas, but people who didn't know how

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Speaker 1: to make TV and people who didn't even like TV

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Speaker 1: but just wanted the spirit of mischief and youth and

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Speaker 1: excitement to permeate the TV screens, which it did. And

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Speaker 1: you feel that in the early Saturday night Live or

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Speaker 1: like College Humor or various sites. And when I read

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Speaker 1: the descriptions of Arman coming together and like all these

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Speaker 1: people sleeping on a makeshift house where you're building a

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Speaker 1: studio and you've called a friend from Australia, and it's

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Speaker 1: like this craziness of not knowing what you're doing and

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Speaker 1: this absolute belief that you can do it, like this

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Speaker 1: naivity that is just infectious. It's really wonderful.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that in life you have to remain naive, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and not grows cynical. I think that's the key. And

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Speaker 2: you know, our friend Tom Freston, who's in the seventies,

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Speaker 2: continues to remain curious and open to ideas and new things.

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Speaker 2: So I think that's going to be the formula to

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Speaker 2: launching a business like this. I think the other thing

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Speaker 2: which we you know, looking back, was that we always

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Speaker 2: gave people the opportunity. If someone had a silly idea,

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Speaker 2: we felt, well, why not give it a try?

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Speaker 1: I remember hearing Jamie McGrath, who is also at the

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Speaker 1: early days of MTV also one of the creative sparks.

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Speaker 1: They're saying, Oh, we don't have a director for this,

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Speaker 1: why don't we let Beth do it? You know, like

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Speaker 1: this idea that like, oh, give them a shot, they're smart,

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Speaker 1: give them the opportunity. And it feels like, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're pulling your cousin in. You're pulling in like these

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Speaker 1: people who except for one person who seems to have

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Speaker 1: some radio background, Masud, like everyone else seems sort of

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Speaker 1: fresh to this. But before we talked about some of

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Speaker 1: that stuff, like, I think one thing that resonated when

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Speaker 1: I was reading your book is that so many people

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Speaker 1: looking at Afghanistan see this culture that they feel is monolithic,

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Speaker 1: and actually it's so diverse, like over different hills, the

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Speaker 1: different languages spoken, and you have this blank canvas with

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Speaker 1: which you can shape a country. You can put new

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Speaker 1: entertainment out there, you can do whatever you want with

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Speaker 1: these airwaves, and you make a conscious decision to both

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Speaker 1: broadcast in multiple languages and bring women on air, which

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Speaker 1: is revolutionary, right, So, like, how did you come up

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Speaker 1: with these ideas and how much conviction did you have

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Speaker 1: in them?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, having women on radio is

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Speaker 2: you know, you don't have to be a rocket scientist.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to be a part time genius to

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Speaker 2: have a woman on the radio. Right, why would people

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Speaker 2: not want to hear a male and female DJ just chatting,

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Speaker 2: you know, talking about music or their lives. And it

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Speaker 2: was just it was so obvious.

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Speaker 1: But it feels like such culture shock, right. It was.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it was having a male and female DJ in

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Speaker 2: a studio. Initially it was jarring for a lot of listeners,

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Speaker 2: and I would say almost bordering on unacceptable. But how

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Speaker 2: quickly that was adopted also tells you something else, that

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Speaker 2: you can facilitate social change by just exposing people to

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Speaker 2: something and within it, you know, a few weeks people realize, hey,

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Speaker 2: this is fun. I like listening to this, you know,

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Speaker 2: I like the bands, I like the characters, I like

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Speaker 2: the chemistry. And then, of course every other radio station

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Speaker 2: was copying our format, even with music. We had just

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Speaker 2: arrived from Australia who were playing Kylie Minog and some

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Speaker 2: Aussie bands, and no one liked that type of music.

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Speaker 2: But they loved Bollywood music, or they like Turkish music,

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Speaker 2: or they liked Shakira or Ricky Martin for example, but

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Speaker 2: you know, a bit spicier. But it's always about trying

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Speaker 2: different things and letting the listener and eventually the viewer

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Speaker 2: decided as to what they ultimately want.

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Speaker 1: But that immediate nature with which this radio station took

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Speaker 1: off is incredible to me. And also there is this

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Speaker 1: internal conflict that you hear from people right like they're

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Speaker 1: calling you to tell you how you can't have music

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Speaker 1: on the radio and how it doesn't make sense. But

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Speaker 1: then they'll request the Venga Boys.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like wildfire.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean we were in sort of test phase and

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Speaker 2: I went away for a couple of weeks. Well they

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Speaker 2: got the signal.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: My brother rang me within a couple of days and said,

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Speaker 2: you got to get back. Everyone's listening to this radio station.

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Speaker 2: I said it's impossible. And I rang around, and everyone's

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Speaker 2: listening to this radio station because it was so unique.

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Speaker 2: There was this particular religious leader and he saw me.

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Speaker 2: He said, are you behind this radio station? I said, yes, sir,

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Speaker 2: he said, he said, I cannot believe that you air

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Speaker 2: those types of programs. He said, for example, for this,

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Speaker 2: you know, we have this radio program called Hop and

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Speaker 2: he said, Hop, you've got this girl, and just making

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Speaker 2: up some names. Mariam on a Monday was wearing this

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Speaker 2: tight black top, and then on Tuesday Fozzila was wearing

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Speaker 2: this pink dress. And then he named all the different

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Speaker 2: pass and he described what they were wearing in such

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Speaker 2: great detail. But of course I joked, you shouldn't be

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Speaker 2: listening to that intensely, sir.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Sad Mussni right after

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Speaker 1: this break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius, where we're

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Speaker 1: talking to Sad Mussene about his wonderful memoir Radio Free Afghanistan. So, Sad,

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Speaker 1: in the beginning, how much resistance were you getting from

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Speaker 1: these religious clerics and community, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Quite a lot, actually quite a lot. We were lucky

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Speaker 2: that the government wasn't quite strong enough to Shatrastan. The

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Speaker 2: Internet community was present and they're funding the government. In

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Speaker 2: those days, we were still you know, this was the

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Speaker 2: honeymoon period after the fall of the Taliban, So we

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Speaker 2: benefited from this lack of couision within the state itself

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Speaker 2: and we had enough allies and it was sort of

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Speaker 2: fragmented government and it was great for us. Because you know,

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Speaker 2: we cemented our position as a media group. But it

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Speaker 2: was difficult. I mean, we had protests outside our offices,

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Speaker 2: we had threats, and of course we were not just

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Speaker 2: doing entertainment. We were also doing news and recoverying things

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Speaker 2: like corruption or extra judicial killings and so forth. So

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Speaker 2: it wasn't enough that we were annoying them with our

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Speaker 2: cultural programs, but also our political programs are pretty hard hitting.

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Speaker 1: But even your cultural programs end up being political, right,

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Speaker 1: like this incredible morning show that happens on the radio.

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Speaker 1: You're calling out politicians on it and standing out front

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Speaker 1: of outside of potholes until they get fixed and things

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Speaker 1: like that. But really lively, it's perhaps in the dna

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Speaker 1: of the folks who work for us in terms of

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Speaker 1: speaking truth to power and pushing the boundaries. Of course,

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Speaker 1: this environment today is much you know, much more challenging.

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Speaker 1: And then we were lucky that we attracted a lot

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Speaker 1: of talent. But also you stopped broadcasting in a way

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Speaker 1: that was overly polite or overly elegant, like you changed

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Speaker 1: the way that radio was presented.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I had to appear on the radio myself,

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Speaker 2: and there a pseudonym, so that everyone else could relax

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Speaker 2: because as soon as I left, they would go back

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Speaker 2: to a formal form of communicating with each other. But

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Speaker 2: when I was there and I was just like chatting

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Speaker 2: to them, they sort of relaxed a little. I think

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Speaker 2: in the English language it's a bit difficult. But you know,

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Speaker 2: in the book I've talked about, you know, communicating in

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Speaker 2: the Shakespearean English on a program that focused on younger Afghans.

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Speaker 2: It just just made no sense at all.

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Speaker 1: So, yes, we made.

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Speaker 2: It more casual, but a lot of people felt that

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Speaker 2: we were dumbing things down, which wasn't the case. But

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Speaker 2: then it took off again. People had the option of

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Speaker 2: listening to a more formal, serious radio program or listening

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Speaker 2: to us, and.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they voted with their time right.

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Speaker 2: Ultimately, this is what happens in free societies. People get

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Speaker 2: to choose.

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Speaker 1: Now, three years into armand the radio station, which really

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Speaker 1: means hope, right, and you decide to veer into TV.

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Speaker 1: Why why do you think you can take on TV?

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Speaker 2: Well, as I joked with someone at the time, was

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Speaker 2: that I didn't think that we had enough problems with

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Speaker 2: the radio station. Listen, you know, amplify those problems. You

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Speaker 2: can well, it was a natural progression for us. You know,

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Speaker 2: we felt we had the pool of talent, we had

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Speaker 2: the expertise because you can remember when we first landed

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Speaker 2: in Afghanistan, there was nothing, you know, so we had

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Speaker 2: to learn to fix transmitters. We could generators. My brothers

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Speaker 2: were always on the hill trying to fix things on

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Speaker 2: the font Italy and they were the manufacturers for our

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Speaker 2: transmission equipment. We had to bring in trainers from Australia.

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Speaker 2: We had to train these DJs and producers and so forth,

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Speaker 2: and I had to sit behind the editing suite editing

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Speaker 2: programs in those days. So we thought, well, we have

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Speaker 2: some capacity now, why not do television, And we launched

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Speaker 2: Tolo TV, which means Sunrise and October of two thousand

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Speaker 2: and four, just before the presidential elections. That was everything

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Speaker 2: we had experienced with radio Times five. You know, it

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Speaker 2: was just far more controversial because you know, television footage

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Speaker 2: hits you very hard, especially if you don't like free media,

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Speaker 2: and so a lot of radio people transition to television

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Speaker 2: and there are synergies between the two, of course, so

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Speaker 2: it makes a lot of sense. And then we continue

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Speaker 2: to expand that side of the business as well. We

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Speaker 2: set up a second and then a third TV network,

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Speaker 2: We set up another radio network, and then we have

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Speaker 2: dozens and dozens of digital platforms and brands as well.

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Speaker 2: So it's a fairly diverse media group now and employees

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Speaker 2: like four or five hundred people.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty incredible. In the early days of radio, the

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Speaker 1: way you write about it, it's almost like there's an

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Speaker 1: open mic and studio and people can come through and

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Speaker 1: just talk and whoever is excited to be on the

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Speaker 1: radio does. And I'm curious did that translate into the

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Speaker 1: TV station as well? Like how experimental were you with

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Speaker 1: the early TV stuff?

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Speaker 2: I mean I used to like wake up in the

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Speaker 2: morning and say, hey, what are we going to have

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Speaker 2: on today? And almost like what are you going to

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Speaker 2: face for breakfast? Exactly because what we did was normally

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Speaker 2: you plan to establish a television station, you know, creating programs,

421
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Speaker 2: acquiring programs, the pipeline in terms of content, getting everything

422
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Speaker 2: lined up, it's a two year process. And so I said, oh,

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Speaker 2: what about six months? I said, how about four months?

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Speaker 2: Something along those lines, And you know, I caught my

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Speaker 2: brother's ide, who always says, you a bite more than

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Speaker 2: you can chew than chew like crazy. It was a

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Speaker 2: bit like that for us in the early earlier. So

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Speaker 2: we then were in a position to launch this TV stage,

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Speaker 2: and except we didn't have much content, so we had

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Speaker 2: to come up with all these, like let's call it

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Speaker 2: interesting ideas of creating a lot of content with a

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Speaker 2: limited budget. For example, we had this program called Taxi,

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Speaker 2: and the idea was the host would go and sit

434
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 2: next to the taxi driver and then there'd be a

435
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 2: camera guy filming the whole thing, and then he talked

436
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 2: about his life and passengers and experience, and it was

437
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: going to be like twenty or twenty one minutes and

438
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 2: including out a little bit thirty minutes. And then we

439
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 2: had all sorts of issues because we told the camera

440
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 2: guy to fix the camera inside the thing, but he

441
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 2: would refuse to do that. So he would lie on

442
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 2: the bonnet in front of the cab, which is fine

443
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 2: if the CAB's doing like three miles an hour, but

444
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 2: then this cab driver sometimes get excited and would go

445
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 2: like forty mile and and on two three occasions this

446
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: guy fell off the vehicle, hurting himself slightly, and so

447
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 2: we had all sorts of issues like that. With these

448
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: sort of early production ideas, but eventually we got it right.

449
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 2: Eventually we bought the content we wanted to buy and

450
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: we dubbed them and we produced local shows. But we

451
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 2: realized how difficult this is to produce television content, and we

452
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 2: learned on the job basically.

453
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: And you were pulling in like soap operas from Turkey

454
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: and initially India India as well, right, yeah, yeah.

455
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 2: The first soap opera we had, which was so you know,

456
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 2: was perhaps the most popular show we've ever had, is

457
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 2: Kimki sas Bahi, which was a star television program. It's

458
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 2: about this this ridiculous relationship between her mother in law

459
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: and her daughter in law, you know, scheming mother in

460
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: law trying to ruin the life of this young woman.

461
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: And of course a lot of Afghans could identify with that,

462
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: because who doesn't have an evil mind?

463
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: Well, I would like to say on radio, I don't,

464
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: but but I know it's funny because in that same

465
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: period in India when all the cable stuff came in,

466
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 1: they brought Santa Barbara and before that, I think like

467
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: the Maha Barad and stuff like that. People would tune

468
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: in every Sunday or whatever. But when Santa Barbara came, like,

469
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: people wouldn't leave their house the next day because they

470
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: just didn't understand that, like soap operas don't really progress.

471
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 1: They thought there was something big happening the next day

472
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: and whatever. But it took no time for Indians to

473
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: copy that format and then dramatize it in the most

474
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 1: ridiculous and you know, phenomenal ways.

475
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 2: So we were lucky that because we tried everything. For example,

476
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 2: we tried Japanese because you know, we lived in Tokyo.

477
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 2: We took Japanese drama series. And we were also lucky

478
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 2: because a lot of embassies would come to us and say,

479
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 2: would you like a Samurai drama series? Say, oh yeah,

480
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,239
Speaker 2: we'll take that, thank you. And the Koreans gave us

481
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 2: a lot of content to take and dub. And that's

482
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 2: when we discovered how attractive and how compelling Korean dramas were.

483
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: Koreans are extraordinary storytellers. So we had this opportunity of

484
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 2: testing different formats and different genres and different shows from

485
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: different continents, so to speak.

486
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and really showcasing the world to people who lived

487
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: a sort of provincial life before that.

488
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so a Hafcans were exposed music wise to all

489
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: types of music and television wise also to all types

490
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 2: of formats and shows.

491
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: So one of the stories that I don't think is

492
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: in your book but I love is that you brought

493
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: the writer of Pretty Woman over to help brainstorm with people.

494
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: Can you talk about that little Yeah, someone.

495
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 2: Has suggested them, so we contacted them and lo and

496
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 2: beheldy shows up. So we had these workshops. So it

497
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 2: was a reality TV show that we asked viewers to

498
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 2: submit their application if they wanted to be a part

499
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 2: of this workshop, and a whole bunch of people applied,

500
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: handful were chosen, and then they worked with this guy,

501
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,479
Speaker 2: j Floorton to learn how to write a show and

502
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 2: how to produce a show, and the group we end

503
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 2: up identifying some extraordinary talent. But he was an interesting

504
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 2: character and he worked very closely with would be filmmakers

505
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: and of course in the evenings we'd take him out

506
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: for dinner and he tell us stories about Hollywood and

507
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: Pretty Woman and all the juicy stuff that I can't

508
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 2: even repeat here, But it was based on a true

509
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: story Pretty Woman. Really.

510
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: Yes, we'll be back with sad Morsini right after this break,

511
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: welcome back to Part Time Genius, where I'm in studio

512
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: with Sad Morsni. I think one of the things that

513
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: really impressed on me when you had said it was

514
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: that America was obviously in Afghanistan for twenty years, right,

515
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: and there are these generations that have kind of now

516
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: been forgotten but really got to experience a totally different world.

517
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: What sort of youth movements did you see, What sort

518
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: of music, style of arts or things emerged from this period.

519
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 2: We had this show called Afghanista, which if you watched

520
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 2: the early seasons, I mean, the lack of talent in

521
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 2: that country was very obvious and it was all painful

522
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 2: to listen to some of these people attempt to sing.

523
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: But within a couple of seasons, I mean some real

524
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: talent emerged, not just in terms of ability to sing,

525
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 2: but to compose. People could play different instruments all of

526
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: a sudden, and we had an orchestra that was state

527
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 2: funded that you know, they could play Western instruments. So

528
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: the transition was very So what probably other countries experience

529
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 2: over decades, it was condensed into like two or three years.

530
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 2: So then there was this vibrant music scene and so

531
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: many kids interested in performing and singing and collaborating and

532
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 2: so forth. And you know, for a while, you think

533
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 2: you're managing things because you think I've got the biggest broadcaster,

534
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: or I've got the biggest radio station, We've got a

535
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: music label, and you're sort of in the driver's seat.

536
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: But then eventually it becomes too big, and that moment

537
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: is actually quite gratifying because now it's very organic. It's

538
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 2: all over the place, and there's a lot of talent

539
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: out there. And Afghanistan is a young country even now

540
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: today median ages eighteen and a half or something, But

541
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 2: in those early years to see that transition happen was

542
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: very exciting.

543
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that show, which is like an American idol

544
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: of Afghanistan, Like I think your sister Wachma and your

545
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: brother proposed it, right, the idea of trying it out.

546
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we thought we should have a music talent show,

547
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 2: and so they sort of figured out if we can

548
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: take an existing format or just create a format for ourselves,

549
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 2: we felt at the time, and we were right actually,

550
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: because we later on we tried to.

551
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: You tried to do The Voice, The Voice.

552
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,959
Speaker 2: Which lasted a couple of season wasn't as successful, so

553
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 2: we created this format for Afghanistan, which immediately was a hit.

554
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: The scenes are like people are hooking up TVs and

555
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: villagers to like generators and car engines and stuff just

556
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: to watch and like the crowds, and the show ends

557
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: up teaching people to vote. It's remarkable how quickly it

558
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: sort of blossoms.

559
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we had like millions of people voting via text,

560
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: which was not cheap. I mean, you know, people had

561
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: to spend money, and this is a impoverished country, and

562
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 2: people were launching campaigns for their supporters to vote for them.

563
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 2: So it was like an elections campaign with posters and

564
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: people going around villages saying you got to vote for

565
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,719
Speaker 2: this character. And it was exciting and daunting. And then

566
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: of course we had to deal with the nutcases who

567
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 2: were attempting to blow us up because we're promoting a

568
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: music show.

569
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: And you actually did teach people vote because people had

570
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: never had a voice before, and so suddenly they're using

571
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: their phones and they're they're getting to speak up on

572
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: issues that they never have and you end up with

573
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: like a woman who ends up winning. You end up

574
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: with old people voting for rappers on stage I mean,

575
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: the amount of progress is incredible. But as you talk

576
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: about the resistance to this show, can you describe a

577
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: little bit about the regions of Afghanistan and what like

578
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: Herat is like, or Kandahar these other like places, and

579
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: what the makeup of the country is, because I don't

580
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: think a lot of people understand the sort of landscape

581
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: in a way.

582
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: Well, the south and the East, they're predominantly passion so

583
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: perhaps more traditional and conservative. Heyrot, although it's a person

584
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: speaking city, but they're still conservative. Mazara here from the north,

585
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: mostly persons speaking, but most of our cities are fairly mixed.

586
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: You have people of different athnicities. People have beenter married

587
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,479
Speaker 2: for hundreds of years, so we don't have exclusive areas,

588
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: and every area you'll have some minorities members of the

589
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 2: minorities that reside in those cities, and Central Afghanistan is

590
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 2: perhaps a little more tolerant of these things. We had

591
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 2: a lot of issues in Herat, in particular. There's a

592
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 2: chapter in the book there's this sort of quite a

593
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: charismatic cleric that mobilized a lot of people against the show,

594
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 2: but he was death set against these auditions being filmed

595
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 2: in Hero art and then the book. You know, the

596
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: solution eventually was to do the airport. The condestin showed

597
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: up and they did the auditions, then they flew out.

598
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: So they always found ways of dealing with these challenges.

599
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean it's funny because you know, you

600
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 2: look at it now and I asked myself, this question,

601
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: is with this obsession about controlling people's personal lives, whether

602
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 2: manner or woman should wear, what a manner of woman

603
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 2: should listen to, by the way you see it here

604
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: in the Western.

605
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not just restrained that idea.

606
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 2: It's kind of women's body or whatever you hear about

607
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 2: these debates in the US. I think a sign of

608
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 2: civilization is tolerance, and that's one of the things that

609
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: we focused on. Always know how to be intellectually humble,

610
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 2: how to listen to the other side, to tolerate other

611
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 2: people's points of views. I think that's good to quick

612
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: people if you can with these skill sets or these tools.

613
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 1: I think one of the saddest things is there's an

614
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: awful scene of US suicide bombing. Can you talk about

615
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: that and how that affected your staff.

616
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 2: We ran with the story in mid twenty fifteen, which

617
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 2: we had to correct later in the evening. But at

618
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 2: the time, the Taliban felt that media in general was

619
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 2: unfair to them, unfairly targeting the Taliban. We were not

620
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 2: maintaining the balance, which I don't agree with. But that

621
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: story became the catalyst or their excuse to targeted us,

622
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 2: and they ssued sort of a fatwell of sorts against us.

623
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 2: And of course, you know, Afghanistan is a tough neighborhood.

624
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 2: The government was adamant that we could protect us. But

625
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 2: one day, when the bus was taking employees back home

626
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 2: left the office and what was on its way to

627
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 2: the western part of the city, a taxi filled with

628
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 2: the explosives rammed into its side and as a result

629
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,720
Speaker 2: killed seven of our employees and injured fifteen, some permanently. Actually,

630
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 2: and I was in Bombay at the time on business,

631
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: and actually it was on the news. We were covering

632
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: the story, but not realizing it was our own bus.

633
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 2: So one of the producers called me up and said, listen,

634
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 2: I'm calling some of these people. I can't reach them.

635
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 2: You know, God forbid. Do you think it could be

636
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 2: our bus? I said, well, I don't know. Let's look

637
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,479
Speaker 2: in to this. Situations like that it's not that clear cut,

638
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: you know, you don't have ambulances showing up. People just

639
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 2: come in and they do what they can to help.

640
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 2: So some are taken to hospital A, some are taken

641
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 2: to hospital B, and some hospitals are full of people

642
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 2: so they can't take any more patients. So eventually all

643
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 2: our people, at least thirty individuals were taken to various hospitals,

644
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 2: and you know, the task of going there, identifying them

645
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 2: and so forth was an online exercise. I took the

646
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: first flight back to Dubai and then from Dubai back

647
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 2: to Carbul and by the time on land in the morning,

648
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 2: we had an idea in terms of the fatalities. But

649
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: it was a very very difficult few days. It was

650
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: to meet their families to comfort them. It's difficult to

651
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 2: talk to a mother or a father or a sibling,

652
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 2: their loved one. And for them, it wasn't just losing

653
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 2: a child. For the lot of them, These children their

654
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,240
Speaker 2: soul providers, you know, dealing with what we should do next.

655
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: But most of them were very determined, Adam, and that

656
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 2: they should continue and you know, we must persist. But

657
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 2: everyone was very emotional. It was a very, very very

658
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: difficult period for everyone. For me, perhaps the most difficult

659
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 2: seventy two hours of my life. But it doesn't become

660
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: easier because when you go and revisit those days, you

661
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: sometimes think was it all worth it? I mean, you know,

662
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: I can't say what certainly if it was.

663
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: It's so heartbreaking knowing the stories of those people who

664
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: were young and came to office and loved their work

665
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 1: so much, you know, And then I know you've talked

666
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: about like how you weren't sure whether you should close

667
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:59,479
Speaker 1: up shop, and the fact that this army of people

668
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: who loved me media are they're ready to keep broadcasting

669
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: and they want to be led forward, and they want

670
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: to keep fighting for their country, and there's something so

671
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: sad and beautiful about it. But I know that the

672
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 1: story gets harder and harder where the Taliban takes over

673
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: a couple that the government flees, and having watched you

674
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 1: deal with trying to secure safety for people, I was

675
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: there the day before you rushed off to the White

676
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: House to talk to people. It's just what you've done

677
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: is remarkable. But talk about how you kept pushing through.

678
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: I mean, like it feels like in the book, the

679
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 1: first chapter is about how you're trying to figure out

680
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: how to produce TV with increasing threats from the Taliban.

681
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 2: Well, we were there to report on the country's first elections.

682
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 2: We were there to report on the government's progress. We

683
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 2: were there to report on the government's corruption. We were

684
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 2: there to report on the insurgency and how quickly the

685
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 2: government was becoming unpopular. We were there to report on

686
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 2: civilian killings and deaths and drone attacks and so forth.

687
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 2: We were there to report on the fall of the government,

688
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: the present fleeing. We were there to report in the

689
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,959
Speaker 2: Taliban's ascendancy in their takeover the city. So we seem

690
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 2: to be there every step of the way, and you

691
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 2: have to somehow detach yourself from you know, you have

692
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 2: to do your job. I'm talking about the news organization

693
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 2: that they are doing the best they can reporting on facts,

694
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 2: not just in terms of informing Afghans of what's going on,

695
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,240
Speaker 2: but also informing people outside. It sounds like two thousand

696
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 2: and two, two thousand and three, where you have hundreds

697
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: of reporters all over Kabo or Rasni or Jalalaba or Kandahar.

698
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,280
Speaker 2: Today on a handful of people dare visit the country

699
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 2: because there's no interest outside Afghanistan. Afghanistan has become the

700
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 2: forgotten war as it was in the nineties. So we

701
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 2: do what we can, and I mentioned some of this morning.

702
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 2: You know, it's wonderful to have the likes of Meneral

703
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 2: Streeps say certain things about Afghan women or others, but

704
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 2: platitudes are not enough. You know, we need practical steps taken.

705
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 2: You know, half the country is on the verge of starvation.

706
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 2: We have food and security that impacts twenty two million people.

707
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 2: If you look at modern nutrition numbers, it impacts three

708
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,879
Speaker 2: and a half million kids. A third of households are

709
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: not fully insulated, they're exposed to the elements. Clean water

710
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 2: is not available to like seventy percent of the population,

711
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 2: and so on and so on. So we got to

712
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 2: always balance. You know, we have the political dilemmas and challenges,

713
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 2: we have the humanitarian situation, and forty million people still

714
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 2: live in that country. They still have hopes and aspirations.

715
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: And you're still feeding those hopes and aspirations both through

716
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: tutoring programs, right, but also you're talking about bringing back

717
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: Afghan star.

718
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 2: Well, I think if we do that, it will be

719
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 2: an online version of course, one of our companies produces

720
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 2: a lot of music that's available online, which still a

721
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 2: lot of people consume, so people have that option. I

722
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 2: think in the twenty first century you cannot confine people

723
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: to a cave. I think that's important in terms of education.

724
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 2: Our young girls and boys don't have access to good education.

725
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 2: I mean, girls beyond grade six have zero education. But

726
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 2: even the boys, when they can go to the school,

727
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,959
Speaker 2: the quality of the schooling is not particularly good because

728
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: a lot of teachers are fled, we don't have access

729
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 2: to textbooks. So we're using our television outlets where still

730
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 2: millions of people watch these programs every single day, to

731
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 2: create education programs which are interesting, engaging use of muppets

732
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 2: and graphics and animation and so forth. And the results

733
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:58,280
Speaker 2: are extraordinary. We've evaluated kids' performances. We're talking about greades

734
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 2: doubling if they watch the program, if they have access

735
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 2: to WhatsApp to during it triples. So you know, from

736
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 2: not learning mathematics ad all to learning it well is

737
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: the byproduct of these TV programs. So I think it's

738
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 2: probably one of the most consequential things we've done.

739
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: It's really stunning and the whole book is just a

740
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: remarkable story Radio Free Afghanistan. You should go pick it up.

741
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: But I think one of the most affecting lines to

742
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 1: me was in the dedication that you tell your children

743
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: thank you for sharing you with Afghanistan, and I think

744
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: that what you've done for the country is remarkable. Thank you,

745
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,439
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here with me. That's

746
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 1: it for today's Part Time Genius. Thank you so much

747
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: for listening. If you're interested in the book, it's called

748
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: Radio Free Afghanistan by my good friend Sad Mussini. I

749
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: hope you check it out. But that's going to do

750
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: it for today's episode. We'll be back with a brand

751
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: new show next week with Will as well well, but

752
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: from Mary, Gabe, Dylan and myself. Thank you so much

753
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 1: for listening. Part Time Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope

754
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted by Will Pearson and

755
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 1: Me Mongais Heartikler and research by our good pal Mary

756
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and produced by the

757
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: wonderful Dylan Fagan with support from Tyler Klang. The show

758
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: is executive produced for iHeart by Katrina Norbel and Ali Perry.

759
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: With social media support from Sasha Gay, trustee Dara Potts

760
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:48,439
Speaker 1: and Viney Shorey. For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio,

761
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

762
00:43:52,920 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. Oh